The Delta Flyers - Far Beyond the Stars

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, Far Beyond the Stars, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and Armin Shimerman. Far Beyond the Stars: Sisko envisions he is a science-fiction writer encountering racism in 1953 America. We would like to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers, Megan Elise and Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts,Tom Paynter, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, David Wei Liu, Nicki T, Roxane Ray, Tim Neumark, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jenny Cordina, Ryan Mahieu, Francesca Garibaldi, Jonathan Capps, Chris Dellman, Sean T, Cindy Woodford, Tamara Evans, Shawn Robbins, & Francis Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Cindy Ring, Lee Lisle, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Andrew Duncan, Randy Hawke, Penny Liu, Matt Norris, David Smith, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Robby Hill, Kevin Harlow, Jeff Allen, Londyn Henning & Risa EinsidlerAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Warren Stine, Carl Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, AJ Provance, Brian King, Maxine Soloway, E & John, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Sarah Thompson, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Sara Junius, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Steph Davies, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, Annie Davey, Jason Eberl, Jeremy Gaskin, Sarah Dunnevant, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, SnazzyO, Lutz Krebs, Karen Galleski, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Cade Solsbery, Timothy McMichens, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Slacktwaddle, Mo, Leslie Ford, Jay Furness, Jim Poesl, Gabystar, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Michael Jones, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Kilian Trapp, Kit Marie Rackley, Gordon Watson, Andy Bruce, Brenton Tyler, Andrew Golden, Damien O’Donnell, Michael Bourguignon, Corey Evans, Patricia Welsch, Shannon Gregg Lucky, Ken Guthrie, Michelle Fox, Jeff Schmedinghoff, Kalena Rivera, & Justin Miller. Thank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out ElevenReader and use my code PODCAST for a great deal: https://elevenreader.io* Check out Omaha Steaks and use my code BEEF for a great deal: https://www.omahasteaks.com* Check out Progressive: https://www.progressive.com* Check out Quince and use my code quince.com/TDF for a great deal: https://www.quince.comAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek, Deep Space Nine. Your host for today are my fellow Trek actors, Terry Farrell, Armand Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong. For the complete and exciting version of this podcast, with all the extra bonus goodies on this very special episode, episode, check out our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers. Sign up to become a patron today. Hello, hello. Hello. Hi, hi, hi. I like how you added all that extra stuff in there, Robbie. You just squashed, yeah, goodies, all the goodies. He did. He did a little com- Well, there are going to be goodies on this. I have no doubt. This is a very special episode, so I can't

wait to hear your stories and memories and thoughts and all of it. Definitely one. of the most poignant episodes we've ever made. I think we all agree on it. And what year was it? 1998, actually. No, no, no, no. Taking place. Was it in the 60s?

Oh, I thought it was the 50s. 50s. That's what I wasn't sure. Like late 50s, early 60s. I just kind of remember that whole vibe as a little kid, as a little person. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the Delta Flyers podcast has a very, very exciting announcement.

And that is both Armin and Terrible. We'll be doing every episode of season seven, schedules allowing, and that Terry has never seen season seven ever. So our listeners will be experiencing her first watch alongside her. Also, we will be adding two new bonus sections starting in season seven in our bonus patron material or bonus content. The two episodes are WWJDD, which stands for what would Jedzia Dax do? And so, and this is where Terry will, isn't this funny, Robbie, Terry will hypnotize? I agree to it. I agree.

Okay. Terry, she did agree to this. Terry will talk about how, you know, discuss how Jedzia Daxe would have handled the events in this episode. Yeah. Yeah. We also have another segment called Therapy with Jed Zia Dax, where Terry will decide which character needed some advice from Jedzia and what that advice would be.

I'm excited to see you watch season seven. So you're telling me I'm the only one who has seen these episodes. You're the only one of us four that's seen any of it. It's so true. Oh, my God. Armand, I am so excited that we're both doing everything all four of us. Yeah, that's exciting. That's very exciting.

I was so happy when I said, Armine's all in, Terry's all in. Yay! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The gang's all here. Oh, my goodness. And I agree. The synergy of when the both of you are on together, it's fabulous. So to have you guys for every episode,

Robbie and I are stoked. And I am very much looking forward to hearing Terry's thoughts about this episode. Oh, great. I've lived with my own thoughts for 30 plus years. And we were standing pretty close to each other when we shot this. But even so, everyone has a different point of view. That's true. Well, I was your secretary.

Not my secretary. You were Renee's secretary. Oh, I was? Yeah, you were. I've been telling everybody for the last 30 years, 30 plus years, that I played your secretary. Go back and call all those people up and say, I have to tell you, I made a mistake.

I don't know all their names or faces. Holy cow. Rent a plane, get a banner, and apologize to the world. But, Armand, of all the writers in the stable, Herb Rossoff is the star writer. So it would go along the lines of him having his own secretary. I believe that each of the writers is patterned off of a real, real. Oh, really?

Yes. I know exactly which writer I'm patterned after, and that's who I played. Who were you? Harlan Ellison. Oh, you were Harlan. Oh, interesting. I got it. That makes sense. It's like a glove. You were fantastic in this episode. Thank you, thank you. We all were. We all were. Everybody was great. Yes, we really were. I wish we had done more episodes where we got to play different characters within the story. Because that was so liberating and fun. And it's fun for everyone.

It's not just the actors that have fun. The writers have fun and synthesize. Well, look at Sorok in this episode. Wasn't he insane? What a transformation he made. Unbelievable. Everyone, really. Everybody did.

I haven't seen this since 30. When it came out, I have not seen this episode. Wow. It's easily my favorite right now, for sure. So, Terry, you play the secretary. I just have to say, do you remember when we started this podcast and I was chewing gum? Yes. And you said,

How dare you? Who would chew gum at work? Well, I noticed in this episode, you're chewing gum. You were chewing gum. I was chewing gum. I was chewing gum. I like to put one piece out and put another one right back in. So professionals can do it. It was part of my character, Terry, when I was choosing. Yes, there you go. I'm sorry. I apologize for not being more understanding about your uncouthness. Hey, we have some birthdays we got to go through. Yes, we do. We have Brianna Claus, September 21st. Happy birthday, Brianna. Happy birthday, Brianna.

Happy birthday, Brianna. Happy birthday, BK. We also have Andrew Duncan on September 23rd. Happy birthday, Andrew. Happy birthday, Andrew. Andrew, happy birthday. Just trying to mix it up a little. Happy birthday in the UK to Andrew.

And last but not least, on September 24th, happy birthday to Risa Einsedler. Happy birthday, Risa. Happy birthday, Risa. Woo, Woo, Risa. Yeah, yeah. So beginning with tearfare for poetry synopsis. Cisco being led by the prophets.

Living oppression in real time. Discrimination burns the soul. Trapped. No support to climb. Spinning within an unjust black hole. reinvigorates purpose to protect, fight, and stand up for all persecuted beings. Whoa. Beautiful.

Thank you. It's beautiful. Wow. To get a woe from Armin is like that is impressive. Nice, isn't it? Yeah. The use of Black Hole in the poem itself. Did you like that?

I love that part. When I, ooh. Yeah, thank you. So sci-fi. Really good. All right, here's a little limerick for Far Beyond the Stars. There once was a captain named Ben. who found himself dreaming again.

Though the present wasn't fair, he continued to declare, the future is bright for all men. Very good. Nice. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Very good. Here we go. Here's my haiku for Far Beyond the Stars. Ben transfers timelines. Struggles for racial justice. Everyone looks. swell. That was the most 50s term.

That was very big. Oh my gosh. I love it. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you, everyone. Oh, I can't wait to hear this.

All right. So this is rather long because there are three words being discussed here. Yes. So the word FAR, F-A-R, comes from old French, old Spanish, old high German, Gothic, old Teutonic, Old English. It was first used in England in 900 AD. The definition is a great distance, a long way off. The second definition is remote, chiefly in relation to countries. So like the Far East or occasions of far absence or persons, a far relative.

So that's the definition of far. The word beyond is only found in Old English as opposed to far and not found in any Teutonic languages. Definition is on the farthest side, a greater distance, and was first used in 1,000 AD. Stars comes from the Old West German, Old English Stiora, Stiora. St. E-O-R-R-A. It's also from the old high German stero, S-E-R-R-O. It's also from the Middle Dutch, Stere, also in the Old Teutonic Steron and the Welsh Seron. Originally, it meant any one of the many celestial bodies appearing as luminous points in the sky.

So, originally, stars, the word stars included planets. Right. And now, of course, is usually restricted to the fixed stars and not the planets. And this was first used in England in 825 AD. Wow. These are some old words. We talked last time. I think you found a word that was from 900 or something.

I believe it was 8-8-8. I believe-8-A. Wow. And this one stars is from 8-25. That's crazy. These are old words. I have two questions for you, Armin. Mm-hmm.

Yes and no. How did they... How did, I guess, scholars record, find out the recording of the very first time it was used? It's the first time it's used written, written. Okay. So it's very possible the people who were speaking these words. But the first time it shows up as a written word is the dates that I use. Oh, perfect.

So that's that answer. That's that answer. And Teutonic language. What is that? Teutonic. That would be anything like German, Friesen, anything that comes from the Germanic area. So that's a Teutonic language. English was first primarily a Teutonic language because the Picks, which were the original inhabitants of England, came from that area.

of Europe and they immigrated to England and the Teutonic is the first sort of basis for language in England. Then of course the French invaded in 1066 and French became a very popular, became the court language in England. And then of course during the course of time, because of trading, because of commerce, words from different countries would come into the English language because sailors from all parts of the world were coming into London or different poets and English people were learning these words. Next up we have Patreon, submitted poetry winner. Rebecca Leary came up with this acrostic.

And I was today years old when I realized or when I learned what an acrostic is. And that is a type of poem where you take the first letter of each line of verse and that spells out something special. And in this particular case, it spells out far beyond the star. Star, right? It just ends with stars. Yeah. So here we go with Rebecca Leary's Acrostic poem.

Fiction became a mirror of pain. A writer dreamed beyond the stain. Racism could wound, but not a race. Bold dreams of a better place. Every story carried a spark, yet prejudice still cast its dark. Out of suffering, hope was born. New visions faced a world forlorn.

Deep in the stars the truth shone through, the dream of equality can still come true. Humanity's stories can tear down the wall even when hatred demands we fall. Cisco remembered what Benny knew, that dreams can make old worlds new. And no matter how far the stars may be, racism cannot defeat the dream of being free. Wow. Excellent. Wow, Rebecca. Thank you.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Of course. Beautiful. I love your voice, Rebecca. Aw. Patreon submitted poetry honorable mention. Hikus submitted by Charlie Faulkner.

Dreamer in Harlem. The station shines in his ink. Walls cannot hold stars. Wow. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Beautiful.

We have so many submitted poems that, that we have an honorable, honorable mention this week. Get out. Because we like so many of them. Oh, and it's Nazio. Nazio submitted a free verse poem titled Hope and Despair. Hope and despair walk arm in arm, or so the prophets say. And reality for Ben Sisko, Corrine's, shifting from day to day.

Is this a stirring story of space or a man fighting for his race? The answer is a choice we make. Our hope or despair is at stake. Nice. Wow. It is interesting to me that everyone has said Ben. And the truth of the matter is, I know the writers considered this, whether it's Ben dreaming about Benny or Benny dreaming about Ben.

And in fact, I'm sure Garrett will bring this up a little later, but there was the possibility at the end of the show, at the end of the seventh season, we would go back to Benny and we would realize that Deep Space 9 had been a dream of Benny's all along. Really? Yeah, I wish that would have happened. That would have been amazing. Because I would have been alive.

You would have been chewing gum in the office. With that worm in her stomach, which was disgusting. It's disgusting. Interesting, but disgusting. And what's great is the very last scene with Ben and his father, they discuss it most eloquently and it's a beautiful, beautiful moment. Yeah. But we need to get there first.

Yes. Let's talk about stuff here. Let's go through the basics here. The story by Mark Scott Zickree. Thank you, Mark. He's an incredible human being who helps people who have come to Los Angeles, especially actors and writers and directors and helps them get started. A very generous, so is his wife, Elaine.

Very good people. Yeah. Super nice. All right, teleplay by Iris Stephen Bear and Hans Beimler, directed by Avery Brooks, guest stars, Brock Peters as Joseph Sisko and The Preacher, Jeffrey Combs as Way Yun and Kevin Mokey, Mark Alimo as Goldicott and Bert Ryan, J.G. Hertzler as Roy Rittenhouse, Aaron Eisenberg, as a news vendor, and Penny Johnson as Cassidy Yates and Cassie. Nice guest star list here. All right, so a little bit of trivia, this is the first time that Cassidy Yates has appeared since Rapture, which was an early season five episode. So it's been a while since we've seen Cassidy, and here she comes back in full force here. Next bit of trivia, although Incredible Tales is a fictional magazine created for the episode.

Their competitor magazine, Galaxy Science Fiction, was an actual science fiction digest magazine published from 1950. to 1995, and it featured writing from such greats as Robert A. Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, and Theodore Sturgeon. And if I may, it's always been my assumption. The writers in this episode are modeled after those writers, or at least some of them. For instance, Albert C. C. C. C. writer is probably Isaac Asimov. In Oz character, Kay, is probably D.C. Fontana. Right. That's what I was thinking. My character, Herb Rossoff, was probably Harlan Ellison. Love that. And I don't know which writer Sid's character is modeled off of, but I'm sure it could be anyone.

And indeed, all of those writers, I believe, it's my estimation, all of them worked for Roddenberry at one time. Wow. Wow. So they combined heroes with history in terms of the writers that they, you all portrayed. That's amazing. But this is the deep thinking that Ira does about these. And the symbolism. And I think that's what I love about it, too, because Avery really got his hands in.

The books on the shelves had actual meaning. That's right. They weren't just stock. Avery picked things on purpose with detail. Outstanding. Armin, a little internet pitch on Cid's character, loosely patterned in real life, on the real life science fiction and fantasy writer, Henry Cutner. Henry Cutner was possibly.

For Sid? Yes. It could be anyone. I mean, we weren't told this. I think I was. I think Mark told me that my character was Harlan Allison. I mean, Harlan Innocent was famous for his temper. Oh, he was losing his temper.

Famous for being very short. In fact, in the episode on my desk, you'll see something that looks like a rocket. Mm-hmm. Allison won the Hugo Award, which is the rocket. The rocket is the Hugo Award. Wow. Oh, how funny. All right, this next bit of trivia, I did not track this at all when I was watching this

episode, but a memo from Douglas Pabst above Rossoff's desk reads, quote, No one would believe that a cheerleader could kill vampires. That's right. That's absolutely true. I can verify that. It's my favorite thing that the kudas ever wrote. I remember coming to the set, just getting ready to shoot, and all of a sudden my eye spotted the name.

know, and I just broke out laughing because, yeah, no one ever believed that a cheerleader would kill off vampires, which I was still shooting Buffy. So, yeah, it was, it was a lovely, lovely note from the Cudus. And for a bit of clarification for any listeners or viewers who don't know, Armin was the principal for a number of seasons on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Armand, did you know this bit of trivia that Buffy the Vampire Slayer also returned the homage love by. including in its very final season, a Spock look-alike. So that was their homage to Star Trek. I didn't know that.

I didn't know that. Well, you were already eaten at that point. Sorry, spoilers. You were already. I haven't seen it. I'm so sorry. Oh, my God. No, please.

It's over 30 years. I don't think at that point you should worry about spoiler alerts. In real time, yes. Another bit of trivia. In terms of why Avery Brooks was chosen to direct this episode, supervising producer, Steve Oster, explained. Quote, Iris Stephen Bear and I discussed the possibility of Avery directing, knowing that he was going to be in every frame of film. We don't like that combination because it's very hard to direct yourself.

However, this was a story about racism and prejudice, and we felt very strongly that it would be wrong if it came from a bunch of people who didn't necessarily know about that experience. We knew that it was imperative to the story and imperative to the integrity of television for it to be done right, end quote. And absolutely right, because the writer's room, there were no people of color in the right's room. We needed to have that point of view. And Avery was the absolute right person to do it. And I'll say that as I watched this a couple of times this episode, I went back to the original script because there were some things in here where I was like, hmm, I wonder if that was scripted or if that was Avery expanding on the premise or the concept.

And quite often it was Avery as the director. clearly interpreting the script visually in a different way in terms of how he staged it and how he wrapped ideas around it. It was he was the perfect person to do it because he did escalate or elevate. He did elevate the material, I think, in a great way. And it felt like we were doing a play, didn't it, Armin? The way he directed and props and bring your own stuff in. and it just felt much more kind of like an earthy experience.

Because it's set on earth in a period where you were playing scenes without, you know, alien makeups or alien, you were playing very naturalistic in a sense. I mean, it was still a little stylized in some of the language and the time period, but it was naturalistic acting. It was great to see all of you free to do that. Yeah. Well, in that time, that period had. more style around it that's way more formal than how we are now or were at present.

And because it took place in New York City, which has its own ethos, we could, I mean, your character had definitely a New York accent. So did Aaron. The cops are, I don't think. Los Angeles cops. Those are New York cops. So there was all that. I must say I got one piece of direction from Avery, which I said no to, which was Avery said to me, Armand, you need to play this a little bit more like Quark. And I said, no, Avery, this is a totally different character than Quarck. I don't think this is Quark at all. And he accepted that. All right. Another bit of trivia. Avery Brooks commented that the episode is not exclusively about racism. Quote, the fact of the matter in far beyond the stars is that you have a man who is essentially

was conceiving of something far beyond what people around him had ever imagined. And therefore, they thought he was crazy, end quote. Another bit of trivia. This episode was Avery Brooks' personal favorite, and it was his episode of choice for the Star Trek fan collective, Captain's Log Collection. Brooks stated, quote, I'd have to say it was the most important moment for me in the entire seven years, end quote.

And for many of us as well, because we were doing something that Star Trek does incredibly, well. It's what Star Trek was about when it was originated. It's why I watched the original show. It was a mixture of science fiction and social issues. And science fiction is a great way to not hit people over the head with social issues, but allude to them and people get it without being hit over the head. Yes. And hopefully they contemplate the show in ways that, you know, help them see a different point of view without as armaged just said being hit over the head which might close them off to the ideas i'm sure that you guys have heard this at conventions or from fans but i know like with voyager

there's a lot of women who went into the sciences because of voyager and some of the strong female characters and role models i'm sure the original series uh had the same kind of inspiring quality. Yes, yes, with O'Hura. Yeah, Star Trek has always sort of, in the way this episode talks about kind of imagining a future that's better, that's more expansive, where there's more possibilities for people. Star Trek has done that as well. So, yeah, this episode just resonates on so many layers. One of those layers is the fact that, you know, we go to conventions and people are very kind to us and lot of our work and wonderful. Thank you very much for all of that. But I know, Terry knows, you guys know, that the original idea comes from the writers. In a sense, the writer's pulling back the curtain and saying, you know, yes, those are all characters, but it's the writer's room where it originates.

They're the ones dreaming the dream. We wouldn't have a story to tell the hope to believe in if they didn't write for us, for fans everywhere, for the world for a better future. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what gives us goosebumps to be a part of it, of that storytelling because we're like-minded people.

All right, next little bit of trivia. Mark Scott Zickory's original pitch focused on Jake Sisko. And rather than actually experiencing a vision, he traveled through time back to the 1950s and met a group of struggling science fiction writers. However, at the end of the episode, it was revealed that he never time traveled at all. It was all part of a trick played on him by an alien

who wanted to find out something about humanity. Iris Stephen Bear didn't like the idea saying, quote, it felt a little bit like a gimmick. There was no bottom to the story, end quote. And he turned it down. However, Bear liked the backdrop concerning science fiction writers in a 1950s setting, so he kept that in mind. And several months later, he decided to switch the protagonist from Jake to his father and introduced the theme of racism. In an unusual break in protocol, Bear then pitched his ideas. to Zickri and asked him to write a story based upon it. Wow. Wow. Robbie, that doesn't happen

every day, does it? Well, it's kind of like in this episode with J.G.'s character coming in with art and saying to the writers, hey, does this inspire you? So it's that synergy of artists, visual artists, writers, stars, Star Trek writers, the art department putting Buffy the Vampers layer props. I mean, there's a synergy to what we do in filmmaking that I think is really magical. And it's not just as much as we want, I would love to give the writers all the credit. It's not just the writers. It's the actors. It's the actors. It's Avery interpreting the script that I was looking at in a way that's not on the page and elevating it and making it bigger. I think everybody, you know, brought their A game for this episode. Collaboration. It also says something huge about how much Ivers, Stephen Baer, respected

Mark and trust Mark. One last little bit of trivia. The working title of this episode was The Cold and Distant Stars, which honestly is a pale comparison to the current title. And also, in addition, Mark told me, in one of the iterations, he had me playing PAPS.

And I'm really glad that that didn't work out because I enjoyed playing Herb and I thought Renee did extraordinarily good work as PAPS. Yeah. Totally. He did. Robbie, can I jump into this first scene there? Sure.

Okay, here we go. So exciting. We're in the captain's office. And Kiro is there. Kiro. Or a hero. You know that character. Yeah, for some reason, Kira is now Japanese.

Okay, here we go. Kira is there with Cisco, and it's a somber moment because the Cortez has been destroyed. Captain the Cortez is somebody that Cisco is very close to. He actually introduced that captain to his wife, and everyone on that. ship lost their lives. It's a very tough situation. And during this conversation, Joseph Sisko arrives and comes into the office to look in on his son. He has heard about Quentin Swofford, the captain who has passed away. He says he's sorry about that. And Cisco kind of relates to him that he may be over it, that this might be a time for him to throw in the towel, maybe let somebody

else take over and just, you know, leave D-Space 9. He just feels like he's in. He's in. over his head and it's just, it's too much, it's too overwhelming. And basically, his dad sort of talks him through it a little bit and says, well, you have a lot of thinking to do. And just as he says that, Cisco looks up and sees essentially René Obisgenois, not in makeup, but in, as himself, as a human, dressed in 50s garb, walking past camera, which then quickly, he quickly comes up, stands up, walks into the, uh, he, he, uh, he, he quickly comes up, walks into the, uh, He walks into ops, looks around.

He says, who was that? Where did he go? We see Dax. We see, we see Kira. And everyone's looking back saying, who are you? What? We didn't see anybody. So he's seeing a vision.

He's not sure who it was. But we know it was Renee. And boy, did he look swell. And I must ask this question. Is he dreaming then? Because he sees Paps through the door, is he already in sick bay? on the cot and this is the first of the dream because one would assume that Ben Cisco wouldn't see

Papps unless he was having a dream and it may not you know one of the other layers you write there's tons of layers in this in this episode one of the layers is is this a vision from the prophets that's what I was going to say is this something to help Cisco move through his impasse and continue to do the work that he's destined to do. To me, that's what this is. The prophets giving him a real lesson in what everyone that the dominion is trying to oppress and take over. So making it so real that because obviously Ben wasn't born 400 years ago, but he's seeing in real visceral time what it feels like to be. be the people that the dominion are oppressing.

Yeah. Right for him to, yeah, be re-inspired for his, you know, what's the journey, his goals, his mission, thank you. That's the word I was looking for. Because he's so discouraged. I mean, it's completely understandable with how many friends and, you know, that feel like relatives to all of us on Deep Space Nine that we've lost over. this war already. So it's completely understandable that he'd be wrought and just exhausted.

Well, it's definitely unsettling to see Odo out of makeup. And how many people knew was Odo? That's something I've heard over the years. I didn't know it was J.G. Hurtzler when he came out with the cigar. Yeah. Wow. I didn't know that that was Mark Alimo playing the cop. You know, I didn't know that you, Armin, were playing Herb Rossov, because we'd never seen you. out of makeup. So how many people knew that it was Odo? Maybe not as many as you think. Yeah. Interesting. How about Aaron? Aaron. Absolutely. Aaron. It was fantastic. Or, you know, although he looked a lot, it was a very different Surac Loft. Yes. It would have been interesting if that moment with Renee that the first time

Cisco looked over there, it was Renee in the 50s suit. And then Cisco steps through the door, rushes out the door, and it's Odo. Yes. Oh, yes. Then it would have dealt with that question you're talking about, Armin, of the audience would have gone, oh, wait, he saw Odo as the 50s guy, as opposed to not connecting it and not knowing. Because you're right, there probably were a lot of people that wouldn't know what, what Renee looks like out of makeup.

It would have just kicked it off in a way that was clearer, maybe. Because he does it later when we're in the past, that happens. Especially like at the table when Kira says, I like that character. Yeah. Right? And it's Kira. And I didn't notice that the first watch. The second watch, I went, oh, how did I not see that?

And I thought, because we're so used to seeing the real people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it didn't throw me off. Well, to me, because I knew it was Renee, it was a little unsettling. And the next scene, we go in a corridor and there's Cassidy and Cisco walking down the hall. But the camera is behind them.

Yeah, that was a strange shot. To me, it's unusual because it feels like they're being followed. Like it's a point of view. Like there's some entity or something following them that gives it a little unsettling tone. So it fit that moment before. For me, it worked. I thought it was a very interesting and unconventional choice to be behind them. Yeah.

And it's telling you part of the story. I love that when, especially in visual medium, when you use that to help tell the story. It might not hit somebody else over the head. Yeah. Right. But for us, and other people who really pay attention. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. And the scene is about Cisco wanting to protect Cassidy. So you see his arm over her. You see him sort of protecting her visually. And I thought that was, to me, that worked. Yeah, Ben's worried. Her going into Kardashian space. Yes, exactly. And they're talking about that. She promises she'll be fine. And suddenly Michael Dorn walks by in a vintage. baseball outfit. And wasn't that weird though, too? I'm so used to his face being so thin as it's been now. So he's like, wow, that guy looks a lot like Dorn. But is it Dorn? Well, now he looks like a male model. He walks by, he says, did you catch the game? He knows Cisco, but he calls him Benny in the scene and says, did you catch the game? And then heads into some quarters. And Cisco's like,

who is that? And Cassie said she didn't see anyone. So Ben, without even responding to Cassidy, steps through the door, follows Michael Dorn in the vintage outfit. And he's suddenly out on a street in the middle of the Paramount Backlot. There's a bus that nearly misses him, cars everywhere. I have to say there's so much production value in this episode. Oh, yeah. I've never seen so many vintage cars.

I don't know who was spending the money, but they spent it well. It was probably every period cab in Los Angeles or the country at that point was on the Paramount Backlop. It was a feature film. It looked like a feature film, Robbie. It really did look like one, didn't it? Ben walks into the middle of the street. He's hit by a cab. And there's a crane pull up at the end.

I will say that I went back to the script, the original script. In the script, it just says he's clipped by a car and falls to the ground. But in the execution of this, he is hit. It is a stunt performer hit by the cab rolling over the top. So this is the beginning of where I started noticing from the original script, Avery, taking an idea and making the moment much more dramatic and much more meaningful. It wasn't just awkwardly stumbling in traffic and falling to the ground. It was a stunt and it was great. A super smooth transition from the New York Street into the infirmary.

we see Bashir waking Ben up and he is having these visions. And also, Bashir thinks maybe this is related to the visions he had regarding Bejor from before, the prophet visions. Bashir wants to keep him overnight. And also, of course, we have Cassidy there. We have Joseph there, Jake. The entire Cisco family is there to check in on him. Clearly, he's kind of passed out or whatever.

And that's what led him to go to the infirmary. But the cool ending of this is Bashir says, take a look at these readings to Cisco. He hands him a pad, which then transitions into the New York, back to the New York Street. And he's holding the pulp magazine, the Galaxy magazine. So I thought that was super, super cool. In order to do that shot, I'm going to ask a question. Would you have to have mapped out exactly where Avery's hand was in order to have the transition work as seamlessly as it does in that transition? Yeah, you'd have to have a reference on one side or the other.

If you shot the B side first, you'd shoot a reference of that. And then when you line up the A side, you'd make sure it was close. But yeah, it was a great transition. I will say the scene in terms of the medical side of the story, it's my one nitpick, I would say about the whole episode is that I felt a little bit like, I don't understand. Like, why is he having this dream? Why is he having these visions? Why is he in the infirmary right now?

Seems like they would have some sci-fi medical answer, or even if they don't have an answer, at least think they have an answer. And maybe at the end of the episode go, boy, we thought we had this answer or that answer, and we don't know. Well, this is what prompts my idea that it's a vision from the prophets. Because medical science wouldn't be able to deal with that or to understand that or to recognize that. And that's why I think it's a dream from the prophets, helping Cisco get through his trauma and reignite with, as care as Terry said, with the mission that he has to continue to do.

I agree. So, Robbie, you felt like it was kind of vague in the infirmary in terms of what was going on, the information. I felt like this scene, the first time I watched it, this scene, I was like, boy, they don't seem very concerned that they don't know what's going on. You could have made Bashir just a little more anxious or. Yeah. Concerned maybe. Yes. Not alarmed, but concerned.

Yeah. Or if it wasn't a big deal, then explain it medically that, oh, yeah, I did this research, and it's only this. I think it's only this thing. But he does recognize it as something that's happened before. So it's not an anomaly. It is a recurrence of something. And he does give a specific about the fact that this is when you were having the

profit dreams. Yeah, because Cassidy even says he's going to need surgery, like he did the last time. Is it like those profit dreams? So, yes, they do reference. something. Well, they're on that street. And as he's looking at this book, now it pulls back to reveal Aaron Eisenberg, not in Ferengi makeup as the Newsy. And he says, they start talking about discussing the book that the vendor, the Newsy, doesn't really like science fiction. He really prefers war stories. Yes, that's what he wants to hear. Which is an interesting detail, because

doesn't Nog eventually go into battle and there's an episode? It's the only episode. It's the only episode I've seen. So there's something interesting about him as the newsy being drawn to war stories because that's going to be a non-story. Fershowing in a way. There you go. Well, mid-conversation, Albert, or call Minnie, walks up and says, Benny. And, you know, there's obviously, they know each other. And he's, Albert says, I thought you might be going to the office. Benny says, yeah, let's walk there together. And they leave. And I love that everyone gets to smoke pipes and cigarettes. in this episode. And chew gum.

Chew gum. All kinds of bad habits. All the vices are here. I do like that immediately, Albert is just kind of a bit of a scattered mess. He can't find his matches. Yes. Oh, there's the matches.

So that character is immediately established as kind of searching for things and words and a little eccentric. Did you think, because I don't know, I don't have an answer for this, Did you think Cullum was attempting an American accent? I did, and it was hit or miss for me. I also kind of wish his hair was different because that's how his hair always is.

Oh, I see what you mean. And then that time that would have been like, oh, no, you would have something product making it look more together. Yeah, some pomade or something in the hair, right? Just something or a hat, something that would make him look more like the style of the 50s. They do describe in the original script. They describe Albert Maclin, or Colum's character, as an ex-mechanical engineer turned sci-fi writer, an extremely intelligent but diffident fellow who never seems to be able to finish a sentence. So it's, yeah, Asimov's a description of Asimov, I guess, in a way.

Quick bit of trivia from this first scene. The song playing over this first Benny scene is The Glowworm written by Paul Link in 1909. Another bit of trivia. the Galaxy magazine cover art is a matte painting of Star Base 11, which was seen in Star Trek the original series episode, Court Marshall. Additionally, Court Marshall is the featured story in the magazine and is shown as being written by Samuel Cogley, who was an attorney defending James T. Kirk in the TOS episode.

Oh, my gosh. I love that. Easter egg after Easter egg after Easter egg. This is the Akuta's. Oh, yeah. I would say it's probably the Akuta's, yes. I don't want to take any credit. away from them, but the whole art department is very involved in all of that sort of thing.

And there were a lot of people that worked in the art department on both the S-9 or Voyager, any of the Star Trek shows. That's right. Star Trek's always been good about bringing in employees in those departments that are also fans, that are also people that are going to help keep the, you know, the franchise connected and all of those. And alive. Yeah, all the details connected. We go into the magazine office, and I want to comment on the stock footage for a second.

Stock footage was exceptional in terms of its choice of how it established, the vintage look, the stock shot of New York City with all the pollution and the graininess. I'm sure money had something to do with it because you get these old stock shots and you can get cheaper ones that are maybe a little rougher around the edges, but it was perfect for this episode. I thought it was great. Nana, playing K, is making some instant tea, which is a modern miracle for everyone. I thought that was really funny. Yes. Sid, who's playing Julius, does not want fake tea because he's very snotty and British. Armine playing Herbert, Renee, playing Papps to argue over donuts, how fresh they are. I love that nothing's changed in that relationship,

that they're still bickering. really cool yes but how subtle the detail to do that yeah they're discussing the new issue of galaxy a magazine they're all fans of they don't work for galaxy uh this is the office of incredible tales but galaxy was a real pulp fiction magazine they talk about the great writers for for this galaxy magazine a great homage to real writers i would like to also point out that when rene's character Pabst tells Kay says she wants to go to Galaxy, something like that. He says, you want to write for Galaxy, go ahead, but they're not going to pay you four cents a word for your stories.

Later in this episode, he doesn't say that to Nana, he says that to me. Oh, he does? Yeah. Pardon me. But later in this episode, Benny would have been offered three cents a word. So he's getting docked a cent because he is not a white. man no that's a that's a very good interpretation i i'm not going to argue with it i'm just going to give you a possible other scenario oh excellent if herb is a knockoff of harlan and ellison who has won

a hugo award sitting on his desk it's he's paid more because like heinland like asim like like he had more stature more stature he gets paid because because he is of the upper echelon of of science fiction writers. Okay, that makes me feel a lot better. And again, I think that's why they put the Hugo Award on his desk to indicate this is a Hugo Award winner. Yes. I think my favorite part of this scene is that, you know, Herb is threatening to leave to go to Galaxy. But what keeps him is that basically, Papp says, I will include crullers in that donut order.

Oh, I would have eaten notes. That's what he buys right there, yes, because that he'll stay. Oh my gosh, those are amazing. Again, Harlan Ellison would just make snap judgments constantly and was constantly angry, always yelling at people. So I really do think that's who my character is modeled after. Can I ask you a question, Harmon? Did you already know this information about Harlan, or did you look it up when you were doing this character? I wasn't told this, but I sort of made that choice.

choice because there just were so many things that were in the back of my head that, well, this is like Harlan Ellison. I had heard a lot about him while I was working on Star Trek, because he had been a Star Trek writer. He had worked for Roddenberry. And so I had heard about him a lot. And so I began to model it after him. And then as I watched it later on and watched it now, I'm just reassured over and over again, that's who this is modeled after. Well, next enters J.G. Hertzler. as Roy out of makeup. He's not in his Klingon makeup. Smoking a cigar.

So fun to see him. I didn't remember seeing him without makeup on. I know. Really? Yeah. I mean, just because usually we're working, then when we got done, of course, I'm jetting home. And he was not usually in the makeup trailer when I was.

You and Dorn were usually there just before I came in. That's right. Like half an hour or an hour before I came in. Yeah, he would be in Westmore's lab somewhere getting his makeup ticket. Exactly. Well, J.G does pop in as Ritter House. He is the resident artist. He wants to inspire their story, so he's got three drawings.

And the last drawing is of DS9. And Cisco wants that one. I think we have to be fair here. I'm sorry, Robbie. We can't call him Cisco. We have to call him Benny. Yeah, yeah, that's true. He's Benny.

I think because it was so much from Avery's point of view. And I associate Avery in this story as the point of view character coming from Cisco. Cisco walked from a hallway into this story. So I'm thinking. You become Benny. Yeah. And my notes often will say Cisco. So I may do this more.

I'm just warning you as I read my notes. But I will try to refer to him as Benny because he is Benny in this world. That's right. But it's a tricky back and forth because Cisco's point of view is our entry as an audience into this world. And so let me ask, you've got the script in front of you. Does it say Cisco or does it say Russell or does it say Benny or Ben? Benny.

Benny. Yeah. So the writers are thinking the same way I am. It's a different character. Me too. But you know what, too? I think perhaps maybe in your brain it's a little bit like me not seeing Kira in the seat and then K.

Until I watched it a second time and I went, oh, because you're so, you're so, you're so, used to saying Cisco instead of his first name, you know. I'm just warning you. My notes often say Cisco, so I may make this mistake. But I agree with you. I think your logic makes total sense, Armin. It absolutely is Benny in this world, in the bubble of this world. You are all not your DS9 characters.

None of you. Okay. So Roy comes in. He's got his three drawings. I did find it interesting that each of the drawings sort of referenced like a different style. There's a girl standing in the woods near a picnic table with aliens and space suits they talk about. Then there's a bug-eyed monster climbing over the ledge of a building with a, you know, a very voluptuous beaute, you know, bucksum beauty sunbathing below, which is a bit of the kind of female exploitation that sci-fi often has.

That quark would like very much. Yes, quark. And then there's a picture of a space station that looks shockingly similar to Deep Space 9, and that's the one that Benny wants. He'll take that one. This is when Pabst announces that Mr. Stone, the publisher, has decided to run a picture of all the writers and next month's issues on the cover. He says, Kay, you can sleep in late that day because they can't show female writers on the staff.

And that goes for you too, Benny. And he says, as far as anyone's concerned, Benny Russell, is as white as the rest of the writers. Let's just keep it that way. So, yeah, we introduced the sexism and the racism that was a big part of publishing and all kinds of things in our culture at that time. One quick bit of trivia. Earlier in the scene when Herbert Rossoff sort of jokes about leaving or quitting, when he threatens to quit, there is a silver item on his desk that he places in a case. and that is an actual Hugo Award. It was loaned.

Yeah, it was loaned to the production by Rick Sternbach, who had won it for Best Professional Artist. Wow, that was very generous for him to loan it. My goodness. Rick Sternbach was in the art department. Rick did a lot of things with visual effects, and he was an illustrator. So he and Dan Curry would come up with a lot of the concepts

and the pre-vis art for. sets and costume, all kinds of things, just props, all kinds of things. Rick Sternbach was a huge part. Hey, Gary, you know what I did this morning? What? I used an app called 11 reader to listen to a script while I drove to work, a script that I'm prepping to direct. So you uploaded a PDF to the app and you were able to hear it while you're driving. That's a, that's a game changer, Robbie. Yeah, it's incredible. You can upload your own content like PDFs, docs, you know, fan fiction, whatever you want. Or you can listen to best-selling audio books with super realistic voices. It was incredible. I had Bert Reynolds read my script. How would you compare this to other reading apps that are out there? Oh, I've tried them.

I've tried the other apps and you can pay 15 bucks a month. You get one credit, one book. Or you could use 11 reader where they've got over 200,000 premium titles. They've got all the best sellers. You know, they've got a free plan that packs incredible value and an ultra subscription for only $11 a month. So you start with a free 10 hours of your own content, or you can upgrade to Ultra for 11 bucks a month and unlock unlimited uploads plus 20 hours of premium audiobooks every month. That's amazing. 11 bucks, it sounds like you're getting more and you're paying less than the others. Yes, and you get Bert Reynolds to read to you. Hey, who's going to argue with that? Check out 11 reader. Use promo code podcast. That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T and get your first two months for only $1. I love how in this scene,

you've got J.G. Herschler as an artist coming in and handing off illustrations in a scene where Rick Sternbach, the illustrator for your show, loaned an award. So the synergy of all of the layers of the storytelling. The real illustrator has a prop on the set, and there's a character who's an illustrator that's inspiring writers, and it's all of that, that, you know, cocktail of creativity that is wonderful. There's Rick Sterling. There he is. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. If I'm right about my character being Harlan Ellison, again, this is a man who won a Hugo Award.

Yes. Yeah. That's right. Well, we go back out to the street. Benny is coming out of the Arthur Trill Building, which is a reference to Armin. Well, two things. One, to Terry's character, who is a trill, which I think is the primary reason. I didn't even see that.

It's on the doors as. As Benny is locking the door behind him before he meets the cops, it's the Trill Building. But also a very important building in New York City called the Brill Building, which is on 57th and Broadway, I believe. So we get both those illusions. We get the Trill Building, and a.k.a. the Brill Building. And Benny comes out of the Trill Building. He's got this drawing of the Deep Space Nine Space Station in his hand. It gets blown by the wind. I just want to comment, that is a very very, very. very hard shot to accomplish. Yeah.

To get a tilt down to a prop that blows along the wind and then is stomped on by some feet, very hard to accomplish. I wrote down, wow. Just very challenging. I hope that was a one and done. Yeah, I bet it wasn't. That's not easy to do. So no CGI was utilized whatsoever in this.

No, not for that. It's practical. It's actually the real drawing that they had to make look like it. It blew and then stomped on. They probably had some fans off camera and some fishing line or monofilament that they pulled it along a path to try and get it to the right spot. But it was, that's a tricky shot to do. We've got Ryan and Mulcahy here, which is Mark Alamo and Jeffrey here. They are hassling Cisco.

They're insulted because of the way he says he works there, it sounds like. They're very cruel. It's just kind of gobsmacking to hear the language. And that was how people spoke, a lot of them. Stay in your place, right? Don't dress up so fancy. Don't question us. Brought attention to yourself.

And they call him boy. Yeah. Oh, that just freaking yanks my chain. Yeah. But I also think it's, you know, very apropos that they gave them Irish names because a lot of the cops that came in at that time period were, Irish cops. So, yes, the cops harass Benny here horribly. They intimidate him and decide it's not worth their time and they send him off at the end of the scene. So here's a little bit of trivia here.

John Eves stated in an interview that he was in charge of the Deep Space Nine drawing getting its footprint damage. And to accomplish this, he saw a woman in the corridors wearing combat boots and asked her to stomp on it. He didn't realize until he was told later, but it was Jerry Ryan in costume. She was filming the Killing Game part two at the time and the boots were part of her French resistance outfit. That is so much fun. That's funny because we shot the killing game over on the stage near the backlog. Was that stage 17 or what was that? It was our swing set stage. We had our caves there, maybe 16, whatever that number was. The next generation's Planet Hell set. Yes. That's for ours. Then it would be 18. 18.

Okay, 18. We had 16. Whatever stage that Jerry Ryan was wearing her combat boots in was near the back lot, because that's where we filmed the killing game. Now I want a map. That far away stage. Because I'm wondering, why is Jerry over on the back lot while you're filming the newspaper being blown? But maybe she just wandered over there between setups. Obviously, we weren't on our, if you're coming out of the trill building, you're coming out from New York Street, which is not any one of our stages. is on the next street over.

Yes. So she was close by. She didn't have to walk a mile to go visit your set because I don't remember us filming near each other much at all. Yeah. I was thinking, Robbie, in that trivia bit, they talk about Eve seeing a woman in the corridors. And I was thinking maybe it was up where the writers were at in that building. Maybe Jerry had to go get something for approval by Berman or something.

You see what I'm saying in terms of her wardrobe. or something like that. And then he saw her walking through the corridor saying, Hey, hey, yours was 16. Yeah, ours is 16. I'm looking at it. Thank you. Thank you.

And we were 417 and 18. 417 and 18. There you go. So your planet hell was 18 then? Is that correct? All right. So our planet hell was 16. All right.

We cut to a Harlem Street now. Benny is coming out of the subway. And I just want to comment, this is the same subway stop on the back lot where I shot a short film called 9 Millimetre of Love and Dennis Matelone and a bunch of our Star Trek stunt people did a stunt for me there in my short film. So I was like, oh, I know that subway spot. Well, Benny comes out of the subway and he walks by a preacher preaching and that is Joseph, his dad, but not in this bubble. And he doesn't know that.

And the preacher says the prophets have sent an angel to show the way forward and he's looking at Benny and he stops and he knows Benny's name. He says he knows that he's a writer in this short little preaching scene and he says, write your words, praise the words of the prophets. So he's referencing DS9 prophets a little bit. He's referencing that he knows that Benny is a writer. And he does say at the end of the scene, he says, the truth shall set them free, which is a great kind of reference to Martin of the King and that sort of preaching. So in that time period. Yeah. Praise the praise be the word of the Lord. Praise to the word of the prophets. So, to me, this just galvanized my thought that the prophets are, everything we were talking about.

Creating this dream. Yes. On purposefully for to open his eyes. Yeah. And see his journey and his importance and relevance to it all. He's an integral part to this story. We go to Benny's apartment next. And it's got a nice piano in there.

And by the way, there's jazz in this episode. Let's not forget the trumpet. solos that play for us. Wow. Yeah. And I love that his piano was in his kitchen where the dining room should be and the table was more towards the center. And it's so illustrated, living in New York. Yes, that I feel that way a little bit in my little house now because you just have to use the space you have. You delegate a different corner for a different part of what you're working on or being in or celebrating about yourself and that's just the way it is. And although Benny never plays the piano,

we all know that Avery Brooks is an expert jazz pianist. Oh, wow. Yes. I miss hearing him sing on the set. That was always really lovely. He sings in this episode at one point. Yes, yes. But he would, out of nowhere, you'd hear him sing.

Wow. It would be a little jazzy vibe from Avery. Benny goes to the kitchen, gets a bottle of milk from the fridge, holds it to his head, which I thought was a nice detail of apartment not being air-conditioned in New York and being in a hot muggy apartment. A humid New York summer. He sits down, starts typing, looks out the window, sees a reflection, raises the blinds, and we see Cisco in uniform rather than Benny in that reflection.

So cool. And can I just say, too, what I loved was they showed what he was. was typing. And he typed, what did he say? Ben Sisko looks out a window. There you go. That's why he opened the window. Yeah. So I like that detail. So when it was revealed that he saw Cisco, there was a poignant reason. It flows so well. Yes, yes. And I will say that this is one of the other, you know, another scene where it's scripted differently than Avery shot it. It's scripted in a different order. It's not scripted of what the words that he types. So that was Avery choosing to write that down. It's a very much simpler in the description of what happens in the script in the original

script than what Avery shot. He shot a much more nuanced, detailed, very specific sequence that I thought was really great. The script doesn't have the what he wrote. Nope. It does not have what does it It just says he stares at the typewriter, rolls a piece of paper into it, size for a beat, and then we cut to see the keys pounding. I so love that you have the real script in front of you to tell us these details and be able to shine on Avery's creativity and artistry throughout. Yeah, he really expanded these moments beautifully. We cut to a Harlem coffee shop again in the script. it just says inside the coffee shop, Benny's holding a manila envelope.

But what it doesn't say is that he walks down the street with a bunch of kids singing doo-wop. That's avery. I wondered about that. I wondered if that was in the script or not. That's such an aviary thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.

That was all Avery. And I love his energy with kids. You feel it in this episode in a big way. Loves kids. Well, he loves people too. And the transition off of the, the kids singing doo-wop inside the shop was seamless. Seameless.

Right through a doorway or a window or something. It was great. I thought that we were going to segue into a musical. I was like, he's going to have a musical number right here. I mean, it was so good. He would have liked that. Yeah, it was a musical. He was a musical for a second.

But inside Cassie, Cassie basically says they can buy the shop. She looked into it. They can buy this coffee shop. they can, the two of them run this coffee shop. He doesn't need to be a writer anymore. He says, no, I'm a writer. That's what I do. And she talks about, I think, in the scene where she says,

you're always talking about the future. This could be our future, this right here. And he's got other ideas. And I found that indicative of my own life and probably every artist's life in this sense. We have a passion to follow the arts. however our loved ones around us worry that we'll starve to death and so they come up with scenarios saying well why don't you just take a good degree and you know get a regular job get a regular job but also just get a backup if they don't want to say

you'll never succeed at this but rather why don't you get another job so that you won't starve to death and i think in a sense that's what this scene is about is the writers in the in Ira and company in the writer's room, remembering all the times that they were told, if you become a writer, you know, what chance do you have succeeding at that? Well, I would also like to make the point that I believe the writers are using Cassie. Papps has a quote, it's not about what's right. It's about what is. And I think Cassie is the catalyst for showing she's living what is.

Practical. She's the practical voice. Yes, this is how it is right now. and this is how they'll accept us. This is how we'll be left alone. We'll be safe here. Not only to make the money, but it's she's living in what is. And Benny's the dreamer.

Yes. He's fighting the system and she's just trying to make it safe. That's right. And this continues as Willie arrives and he flirts with Cassie a bit. She's turning him down. She's all in on Benny. And then Cassie leaves. And Benny says to Willie, he says, why are you still living up here?

You're a big successful baseball player. And Willie shares how even though he's famous, he's not accepted. He's still just a black athlete to white people. And here, uptown, in the black neighborhood, in this culture, he's admired. He's actually revered. And that's why he lives. He still stays here. They don't want him living in the suburban neighborhoods.

Right. They barely accept him as a baseball player. They'll never accept me if I'm one of their neighbors. Yeah. Exactly. And let us remember black members of a white baseball team was just new. This was a brand new experience. This was something that they had just broken that barrier.

And a lot of people, as you said, would not accept them as neighbors. And then he goes off to chat with some pretty girls and some kids won his autographs. This is when Sirak walks in as Jimmy. one of the neighborhood guys. Such a great performance by Sirak here. Transformative. It really was. And also this character is just adding to the cultural perspective

of the African-American community at this time. You've got this baseball player who has that perspective and now one of the neighborhood kids comes in. He's selling a watch that he found, he says. And Benny says, you know, you better be careful. you're going to get in some big trouble. Jimmy says I like being my own boss. I don't want to just be a dishwasher.

Benny says, we'll read the next issue of my magazine because I wrote a great story. There's black people on the moon. Jimmy laughs. He said that'll never happen. But he says he'll read it and he leaves. What I thought was brilliant writing is that we're not only getting racism from the white folk.

We're also getting, in a sense, racism from the black folk. in the sense that they can't even begin to dream this dream because they've been so indoctrinated with being subjected. That's their reality that you can't get beyond this. And I thought that was great. It's not just one type of racism. It's not overt racism. It's also what's the opposite of overt?

Systemic? It's internalized. Internalized. Yes. Well, again, I just want to give kudos to Sorok for his incredible performance. It's extraordinary. Yeah.

Which is extraordinary. Bravo. Yes. Bravo. We're back in the magazine office. Everyone is reading Benny's new story, passing the pages around. The telephone's ringing, but nobody's answering it because they love this. Colum, I think, is playing a bongo, which is such a great 50s beatnik sort of quirky, weird thing.

And I do want to say, again, Avery shot this scene in a different way than it's described in the original script. In the original script, it starts on Renee. his office reading the pages and then cuts out to people passing pages around it, I think it says. But this kind of revelation of a shot that goes down a line to open the scene is very different than how it was described in the original script. So Avery did a great job. Yeah, it felt really alive and electric and exciting. And we are introduced to Darlene.

Yes, we are. Darlene! Terry Farrell is Darlene. Darlene. She loves the story. She loves the one about the worm in the belly, she says. Obviously, a reference to the trills and to Dax, Jedziah Dax. And you're chewing gum in the scene.

I was going to say it again. I know. Actually, what I felt really proud of is that it was like having, the parts that I admire the most are the actors that have the least to do or the least to say. But they feel like a full character. Yours felt like a full character. And that I felt really proud of because it was exciting. Thank you. Those are the hardest auditions, though.

Yes, they are. It seemed like you were having fun. Did you have fun? The best time ever. Yay. Yeah, I was nervous about my accent. Then I just thought, you know what? Fuck it.

When have I ever had this chance? And you have to just do it. No one told me to. It just felt like a Lucille ball. It was great. And I love so much that Avery told me, you know, you're a secretary. I want you to bring things from home if it fits in this era and the picture on my desk is of my great-grandparents. Oh, wonderful, wonderful. And that was just so meaningful

to get to, you know how it is. It's like hardly ever can you put something that actually means something to you. And so when someone asks for that, it's just, it fills you without effort. I love how detail-minded Avery was to even come up to you to say that to you. Hey, bring this. That's what made me feel like a play. Of course. That's why it felt like a play to me. You're asking me to actually contribute, you know?

And it's not, oh, you just have to get a dead letter perfect and let's keep plowing through. It's feel it, enjoy it, be it. And that's how Avery made me feel in this episode directing us. It felt that way. Yeah. Well, everybody loves this story. They talk about Benny's story in detail. And Kira appears in this as we're cutting to these different responses to the story.

Kira appears for a second. I like how each character likes their matching character from Dyspace Nine. Yes. And the fans love that too. Okay, so Papps comes back, comes in. He's read this story. He says, we cannot publish this story. And Herbert defends it.

It's very passionate about defending him. Papps calls him a commie, which is a huge insult and at that time a threat, really. That's a major threat. Is that what a pinko is? Yes, that's what a pinko is. I purposely did not wear pink for that reason. So that's a derogatory name for a communist is Pinko instead of red? You didn't know that? No, I thought it was just red. Okay, pinko. Red, pinko, yeah. So they argue after Paps calls him a commie because as, as you know, As you said, Armand, this was a big deal at the time. It was a career ender. McCarthyism. McCarthyism. McCarthyism. The Red Scare was real. Very real.

Very real. Yeah. People lost their lives. People suffered immensely from McCarthyism and the red scare. So I thought that was an interesting detail that the writers put in there. Anyway, they argue Papp says Albert writes about robots. That's safe. Just write about robots.

robots people. We don't have to write about, you know, social issues and things like that. And he says that Ben, Benny can just change the captain to White and he'll publish it. It's his choice. And that's how they end the scene. They end a scene with him saying, but that's not what I wrote. He does say, that's not what I wrote. Papp says, it's your call and walks away. So there's artistic integrity there. You know, good for him. We go back to the coffee shop. Well, Cassie says she's sorry that they're not going to publish his story. Jimmy's there. He says, I told you so.

You're wasting your time on this writing thing. And Ben is very upset. He says things have to change. Cassie, you know, begs him to, let's just be happy now. Let's go all in on this restaurant. Let's do that. And as they're talking, a hand comes in on Benny's shoulder. And it looks like a cling on glove or an alien outfit.

in the hand. He turns in its wharf and Benny reacts, jumps up, scared to death, falls down. Yeah, falls off the stool onto the ground, into someone. Yeah, knocks over somebody. It was a well-shot moment. I mean, it startled me too. And he says he's got to get some air, steps outside. Cassie calls to him, we're still on for tonight. Then he says, yes, I'll pick you up around 10 o'clock. And he runs out to the street. There's a little comedy tag here with Willie Michael Dorn saying to Cassie, well, what are you doing until 10? She says, whatever it is, it's not with you. He just walks off.

So, yeah, nice little light moment there at the end. Time has passed. It's nighttime now. We're on a Harlem street. There's the preacher again. Preacher says, write the words. Benny, write the words. He keeps telling the right, right, right.

Benny turns. He's very moved. That's the word I'm looking for. He's unsettled by this preacher. Preacher's telling him to write. And so he starts to run away. He walks off or runs off across the street. But the preacher keeps calling to him.

Just write the words, brother Benny. Write the words. And if I may take it from science fiction to reality, he says, write the words. It's, let me see what I wrote here. Write the words that will lead us out of the darkness, brother Ben. It is the writers. It is the artist. that help make the difference.

It is those black writers that Benny cites that change the mind gradually, gradually, certainly, of people realizing what prejudice that they were born with and learned to go, you know what, this isn't right? And it is the writers. It is the writers and the artists in our society

that help make the change. Well, that's why we talked about the Red Scare in the 1950s, atheism. That's why they went after the entertainment industry in the broadcasting industry, because that's where culture and artists were exposing people to challenge their beliefs. Because art is powerful. That's right. We cut here to Benny's apartment where Benny comes in. He sits down at the typewriter and starts typing. So he listened to the preacher. He goes and starts writing more. He wrote the one story that they said they won't publish. He's going to write more.

It's going to keep writing. There's a beautiful crane shot outside his facade as he's typing to transition some time passing. I just want to point out in those facades there's no sets. So the shot that Avery got with all the lights on in the windows and that texture was beautiful, beautifully done by the art department because the window dressing and all of that is added by them. There's nothing inside those facades on a back lot set. the detail was really realistic and very pretty. Again, everyone was trying to do their very best work.

Inspired by the script and the excitement of getting to do something different and the purpose and a message. And that's very exciting. And far as set dressing, correct me if I'm wrong, I actually think we were nominated for award for the set dressing. Ironically, we didn't get any awards for performance or for direction or even for writing. But for set dressing, I think we were nominated for an award. So for this episode, there were three Emmy nominations, Outstanding Art Direction for a series,

outstanding costume design, and outstanding hairstyling. Avery should have been nominated in one category. Yes. I just love this script. So I think the writers should be nominated. Yes. After some time passes, we come back. He's fallen asleep.

Cassie's there waking him up. He says he forgot about their date. didn't show up at her place and he says he has to keep writing whether they buy it buy it or not and again the jazz music in this episode plays a big part here because they start dancing to some jazz and as they're dancing on a beautiful transition on a spin on a close-up of their dancing we're suddenly in Cisco's quarters on the space station and then they spin around again we're back in the apartment he gets very confused Because he says when they're in the Cisco's quarters on the ship and they're dancing, he mentions the dominion.

And he says, I wish we'd never heard of the dominion. And we're back in Benny's apartment. She's like, the dominion. What are you talking about? Well, Cassidy says that actually, right? Yes, yeah. Cassidy says, well, I wish we've never heard of the dominion. That's when he says, the dominion?

So he's now being pulled between times. Between the realities, exactly. In his apartment, he ends up panicking from the switching back and forth and gets confused, falls into the piano. and she just holds him there at the end of the scene. As he feels like he's losing his mind, as anybody would if that was actually happening to them. Yeah, he says it's as if I'm becoming this Captain Sisko, which he kind of is. Well, he's getting towards the end of the lesson, yeah? Yeah, exactly.

And part of the lesson is to keep living that dream of changing the world, which he's doing by virtue of continuing to write the reality of Deep Space Nine. And it's what the writers are doing with this show Deep Space Nine in having the very first African American captain of a Star Trek ship. Right. It's the first time we've ever addressed Avery's skin color in the show. It's always been assumed, okay, he's the captain. Yes, we all acknowledge the fact that it's an African American playing the part,

but it's never been addressed. It's not special. Yeah, it's not special. He's just qualified. One of many different skin colors. I'm orange. I think this is something that was really very brave of them to say, okay, we've ignored it for five and a half seasons.

Now we're going to address it and we're going to address it in terms that will make a difference. Yeah. And empower Avery Brooks to star in it and direct it to help tell the story in a much full way. And I can't help thinking that over the course of time before this episode was ever written or conceived of that Avery had put in, why can't we do something about my being a black captain? I have to assume that he talked to the writers about that. Yeah. Because that is a social lesson that we're in the middle of right now. Right. And one that we heard Avery talk about often while we're waiting for a shot to be set up.

Well, we cut back to the magazine office, another great vintage establishing shot of New York. And Ben has written six more stories we learn about this station, the Deep Space Nine. Pabst is furious. Julius says, just self-publish it. And Kay comments, well, that's like writing chalk on a sidewalk. Nobody's going to read it.

Albert's suggests, our Asimov character, suggests maybe make it a dream. And Papps sort of stops and says, well, yeah, maybe that'll work. And Ben considers it. He says, well, maybe it's better than chalk on a sidewalk. So the dream idea comes up. The dream, you know, there's a story within a story within a story within a story in this episode. There's so many layers that are playing out at once.

And I like that Kay points out who's doing the dreaming. And Kay said, obviously someone or someone without a lot of hope. a shoe shine boy, a convict, someone dreaming of a better future. But I love that the group is trying to do whatever they can to help lift him up in their own way. Yeah, and they're looking for a way to try to inch this concept forward a little bit. And making it a dream is a solution. But Herbert says, well, you can publish one as a dream, but you can't make them all dreams. So he's kind of saying at some point, we have to face the reality of this concept.

And this idea. Which is his argument that it should not be a dream, that it should be what it is. He's always, you know, I'm bigoted this way, but I believe Herb is Benny's biggest advocate. Yes, he is. I think so, too. Well, we cut to a Harlem street. There's two girls skipping on the sidewalk and Avery runs up to them. I think he ad libbed something like, can I play?

So he's, again, with kids, great energy with kids. But he sees Jimmy and he says we should celebrate. Celebrate my story. Let's go have some lunch. And he says, I'm headed to the stars. So he's very excited. He's found a way maybe making a dream is going to work. But Jimmy is anxious, kind of half listening.

He says, I've got a big deal coming together later. And Benny is worried about him. He seems shook up too. Yeah, he does seem shook up and distracted. He doesn't feel like he's relaxed about this. It's a whatever it is. It's dangerous. That's how it felt. He's gotten himself into some trouble or a dangerous situation. So we cut to the coffee shop next where Willie shares his big game news.

He's recounting last night's game. Bottom of the seventh, he's up. It's a 2-fastball. He hits it into the left field bleachers, bragging about how far it was. And Cassie's not impressed. She's like, I read it in the newspaper. I know all about it. But Cisco arrives and tells Cassie that they're publishing his story.

And tonight they're going to celebrate dancing. She's going to wear her red dress. And he says, yep, three cents a word. He's very excited about this. Doesn't sound like much these days. We cut to a Harlem Street at night. This is more jazz playing. Incredible establishing shots.

All the traffic in the world. The marquee lights are going. Love it. The wide shot, we cut into a tight shot of a trumpet real close. loves playing music. Benny and Cassie are walking down the street, talking and at the end of his line where he says, yes, you're getting more and more beautiful every day. He sings the last part of his line where he says, I'd be happy to spend my life waiting on your beck and call. He sings it. I just imagine him singing that to Camille, his wife. In the original script, it has them walking

after this establishment. Cassie says, my poor feet, baby, you better marry me soon. I'm not getting any younger. It says Benny turns, takes her in his arms, and then the only line he's got scripted here is, but you are getting more and more beautiful. And that's it. That's all that's scripted. So that's Avery's choice. Yeah. He made a complete 12-course meal out of this. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I mean, he took the opportunity, he was ready for it, and he just excelled on everything. Yes, he did. He was on his A game in every way. After that moment, they run into the preacher who says, this is just the beginning, feels his ear, his paw.

Yeah. He has some blood on his hand. Holy cow. And then they hear gunshots. They run. It's Jimmy. Benny tries to get to him. Ryan and McClayy, he starts punching Benny.

It is a very expanded beat-up, beat-down moment where we interviewed. cut Wei Yun and Duquot in these moments a bit for this beat down. And it's it's uncomfortable. Yes, it's uncomfortable. It goes on beyond the point of just story into your experiencing that that kind of racism and disrespect that leads to this kind of behavior. Hate. Hate. Yeah. And no one tries to stop the cops. No one tries at all. Here's my question. What I didn't under, I know there's a jump in time, but you get arrested for assaulting an officer. So, I mean, I know there's no time in the script or in the show.

But what I'm feeling amiss here is how did that get handled? Did he go right to the hospital and then she's there with him? I would have liked to have had a little more dialogue maybe in the next scene. about his journey to wellness. And I just don't understand. No, they beat him up like that. How did they not arrest him? That just feels like, why would they let him go?

I think Cassie says, you've been cooped up in this apartment too long. That's about the only reference to time passing. Yes. Yeah. But I mean, really, if anybody attacked the police, was that law not in place then

that you get arrested if you attack? attack a police officer? One thing I do want to point out is that in our transcript it says Cassie's line says weeks, but in the original script, it says you've been cooped up in this apartment too long. It doesn't say weeks. So they must have changed it. They must have changed it on set because the script said too long. So the script was even more vague than what they shot. It did need a little more orientation to where we are in time because it felt like the next morning for it really did. I didn't feel that way. Because of the cane, because of the bandage around the hand, because of the way Avery played it, I never thought it was the next day.

Oh, for sure, as the scenes revealed, for sure. Initially, it felt like the next day. You would think somebody would be arrested, but if he was beaten so badly that they couldn't even bring him in because they'd get in trouble for how bad. You know, I just wanted a little more clarity because it felt like with everything else being so honest. and in your face, that felt like a missing moment. Not in terms of them beating him up. I couldn't watch it. The second time I watched the show, I just went over it because I thought I cannot watch

this one more time. Yeah. Well, in this scene, Cassie suggests he get out of the apartment. He's been cooped up, go to the office. He can see his story in print. And he cautiously agrees. And he's got the walking stick, as Armand referred to, bandaged hand. And he leaves the apartment.

We cut inside the magazine office where I love this little detail in the shot where column as Asimov has a drawing sitting on his typewriter. Or no, he's got a true story magazine like trashy, bulk fiction. And he's making a pipe cleaner figure. He's not even working. He's not even typing. He's kind of wasting his time. Anyway, it made me laugh. Cisco does return though,

Benny, not Cisco, sorry, Benny returns, and they're all very happy to see him. Darlene says to Albert, tell him the good news, and we learn that Albert has a book being published about robots, of course. I robot. I robot. Yes.

Pabst arrived says they actually aren't publishing this month, that they're going to pulp or destroy all of the copies, because Mr. Stone, the publisher, doesn't think it's their kind of issue. And Ben says it's because of my story. It gets very upset. And Papp says also, you're fired, basically. He's letting you go. And Ben, he's very upset now.

He says he quits. He trashes the table and begins to cry and has a beautiful speech here about how the story is real. and how they can't destroy, you know, they can't do anything to him anymore, he says. He's a human being, damn it, he says. And that that future, my story about the future, about all these people, they exist in my mind because I created it. And you know that. You can read it. It's here. It's as real as I am. He says you can destroy this issue, but you can't destroy an idea.

It's a powerful speech. He ends up. sobbing and crying here and collapsing at the end and terry and i were there and the amazing thing it's incredible performance the amazing thing is he avery turned to jonathan west who i think at that time was monitoring the video village and he said do we need another one and jonathan says yeah i think we do not because of the performance just to be on the safe side i think and then abry did it again yeah Wow. And like it was elevated to such a palpable level that you could feel it through your whole body, all of us. It was an electric shock.

It was we were all, we were no longer performers. We were human beings watching another human being go through an immense pain. It was one of the most extraordinary moments ever on the set, for me, ever. Because it was full of truth. His truth, what he lived in his life. And even after the yelled cut, I'm not so sure he was all right. We were concerned for him. Yes. I have a bit of trivia here regarding this exact moment. Avery Brooks became extraordinarily involved in delivering his performance in this scene. Iris Stephen Bear commented, quote,

Avery was so deeply into the character that he went down and stayed down, end quote. First assistant director, Lou Race, recalled, quote, he falls to the floor and I'm saying, Well, I got to say cut, but how long should I let this go on? Now visitor related, they called cut, and he's not coming out. And I know what that feels like as an actor. You're gone, and he was. He was gone, end quote. Added Lou Race, quote, if I'd stood there for half an hour, I think he would have kept on.

He was very committed to that part and very committed to that scene, end quote. It was truth. I'm looking at the original script right now. Benny's monologue that we're discussing in the original script is very short. Really? It's very short. It doesn't look like a monologue. Wow.

I mean, I'll give you the exact sequence, but he says, call them, go ahead. They can't do anything to me, not anymore. None of you can. I'm a human being, damn it. You can deny me all you want, but you can't deny Ben Sisko. He exists. That station, those people, the future, they exist. in here and in the minds of everyone who read of you who read it that's it yeah so i imagine he was

at a place in that performing that where the ideas were so real and personal and raw that he repeated lines or he no he made up new lines i wrote down some of this yeah you can pulp a story but you can't destroy an idea that that's ancient knowledge you cannot destroy an idea i create an idea i create created it and it's real. And then he falls to the ground. I don't remember exactly, but I know we stood still for quite a long time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I have this recollection of there was a point where it felt like we should quietly walk out so that he had privacy to regain some amount of composure. But it was very painful to watch another human being. suffer like that and to imagine that that's not a single isolated event and that it's in our culture and it still is to a lot of degrees I imagine this is why we're all so proud of this episode all right in New York street we're outside there's a red ambulance outside of the offices Cisco's wheeled out and the whole gang is there looking on very sadly as he's put into the ambulance.

I just want to say that ambulance was super cool. It was. It was. It was really was. That ambulance was super cool. I was so worried when I first saw it that it was like an insane asylum picking him up. So when I saw ambulance, I was like, oh, thank God. Thank God it's just the ambulance.

Okay. So he's in that super cool ambivalence. We see that Benny is now in a Starfleet uniform. The preacher is there. And Benny says, tell me who I am. And the preacher says, you are the dreamer and the dream. And then he looks out the window and we see stars streaking past the window. So we know we're kind of in this dream, in this episode, heading back to the station, back to the timeline that we're familiar with.

And we are, we're back in the infirmary, Cisco wakes up, and we learn that he was only out for a few minutes. How crazy. Like, hardly out at all. And Bashir cannot explain it. He doesn't know why he went out or what happened, but he's back to normal. He's totally fine. This was the part of the story that I felt a little nitpicky about. I was like, really?

I understand your problem with that. But I also remember an episode where Cullum thought for 20 years he was in a prison. and it turned out it only been a couple hours. That's right. Yeah, it's not the time. It's the brevity of this scene trying to explain something significant to the captain of the station. To me, that's, I just felt like there's literally five or six lines in the scene about him being unconscious, the captain being unconscious, something that moved the captain. But how could they talk about it?

They didn't experience. This is his personal journey. Well, and also the reality in the room of the infirmary. Yeah. He's been out for two minutes. Yeah. Right? So he came in and there are a couple of anomalies,

want to keep you overnight. So he dozes off for two minutes and suddenly we're back and everything looks fine. So if that's the reality of the time frame, but that's why it's great to do this, kind of breaking down that we do, because then you can kind of see the bigger picture of it, I guess. I think because the audience and Cisco, because we're in his point of view in this episode and the story, the audience has gone through such a significant emotional experience

that to come out and have four or five, six lines, whatever it is, of how long was I out? Only a few minutes. Yeah, seemed like forever to me. Well, that's odd. Your neural patterns are back to normal. Oh, that's good. I just don't understand what happened.

It's so, like, wait, what? Yeah, it's like whiplash in tone. Yeah. We're back in Cisco's quarters where Joseph, Cisco's father enters. He says he's headed home in the morning and just asked Ben, what have you decided to do? Because at the beginning of our story, Cisco said, I don't think I can do this anymore. I can't be a captain. This whole thing is too much for me.

But Cisco's thought about it and he said he's going to stay. He's going to finish the job that he started. Joseph said, well, maybe the dream, whatever you dreamt about when you were out for two, three minutes or 42 minutes, whatever you dreamed about, maybe that helped you sort it all out. And Ben says, what if all of this is an illusion, me being at the station and being a captain? What if this is just an illusion? And maybe all of this is a dream from somewhere else. And maybe Benny Russell is dreaming all of us up. and he looks out the window and his final line here is somewhere far beyond all those distant stars.

Benny Russell is dreaming of us. And as he looks out the window, we see a reflection of Benny now, the reverse of what he saw in his apartment in the dream. Let's talk about theme slash lesson slash moral of this episode. Armin, if you could break off some wisdom for us first. Sure. Sure. I will repeat something that said in the episode that I think is the theme, which is hope and despair, walk hand in hand. I think that's the crux of this episode. Great. Terfair, what is your theme lesson in moral? I found a quote from James Baldwin, who said, not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it's faced.

And that felt like, you know, that's exactly what the prophets are doing. They're making him revisit what his mission is to protect people from the dominion. A little reminder from the prophets. Robbie. I wrote down, our imagination can create anything. Mine is from a line from Cisco at the end, and that is stay the course and finish the job you started. Our Patreon poll winner for theme moral of this. episode is submitted by Andrew Cano,

Never Stop Dreaming of a Better Reality. We have an honorable mention for Theem and Moral, and that's submitted by Charlie Faulkner. Charlie says, you can cast out the dreamer, but you can't destroy the dream. Well, Robbie and I need to thank Armin and Terry for joining us for this episode. Thank you both.

Our pleasure. And how wonderful to watch this episode again. And to hear Terry's and your comments. To hear both of you. Yeah, I love hearing. Oh, my goodness. I love hearing your Sarman. Well, and Robbie and Gaw.

All right. We have come to the end of our recap and discussion of this episode, Far Beyond the Stars. Please join us next time, and we will be recapping and discussing the episode, One Little Ship with Terry, with Terfair. Join us for that one. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus content. For everyone else, we will see you next time. Thank you.