The Delta Flyers - Heart of Stone

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, Heart of Stone, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Armin Shimerman.Heart of Stond: When travelling in a runabout, Kira and Odo learn that a Maquis ship has ambushed a Lissepian vessel. We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Tom Paynter, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Tim Neumark, Randy Hawke, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, & Sean T.Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Danie Crofoot, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Kevin Harlow, Hailey L., Cindy Woodford, & Mariette KarrAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Carl Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Shanyn Behn, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Klee Wiggins, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Robert Allen Stiffler, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Karen Galleski, Jeremy Conoley-Mayes, Jan Hanford, Loretta Reyes, Katelynn Burmark, Timothy McMichens, Helen Brownrigg, Dawn Colleen Smith, Cassandra Girard, Robby Hill, Andrea Wilson, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Oscar Fernandez, Shawn Battershall, & Natalie SwainThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your host today are my fellow Trek actors, Armid Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong. For the complete and exciting version of this, this podcast, check out patreon.com forward slash the delta flyers and sign up to become a patron today. Well, hello, gentlemen. Hello. And may I add, sign up now. Sign up now. Sign up now. Do it before you forget.

That's right. Right now, pause this podcast. Go to patreon.com forward slash the delta flyers. Check out all the benefits and the perks. We put out a lot of stuff, lots of cool opportunities, bonus material and things like that so yeah yeah it's great to go into the detail robbie but because quark has given everyone an order i think that's enough he just said sign up now so that's right didn't didn't work much in this episode yeah cork in the orders no you will yeah we'll get to that when we get to get to okay we do have some birthdays though yeah you need to talk about uh the people that have birthdays today so uh right off the bat robbie who's got who's who has the first birthday you have The first birthday I see coming up is David Buck on February 23rd.

Happy birthday, David. Happy birthday, David. Number one, you're number one on the call sheet. Happy birthday, David. Matt Edmonds on February 26th. Happy birthday, Matt. Happy birthday, Matt. Congratulations.

Happy birthday, Maddie Matt. We also have to welcome a very new profit. We have a brand new profit, and that would be our good friend, Luce. So congratulations, Luce. Welcome, Luce. Welcome. Welcome, Luce. Good to have you in the prophet level.

You are a god. I'm glad you said God and not goddess. Yes. She's a god. She's a god. Yes. I am so excited about my poem today. This one just spilled out.

You know, sometimes it's struggled for a long, long time. All right, here we go, my poetry synopsis over this episode. Odo and Kira get trapped on the moon. A growing crystal could smother Kira pretty soon. Nog has a Starfleet dream. It's not a joke or a scheme. From love and heartbreak, even changelings aren't immune. Wow, lovely.

It's really nice. That one just came out. It's not super funny, but it just flowed. I like rhyming scheme and dream. That's very nice. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Here is my haiku for Heart of Stone.

Kira's foot is stuck. Nog would like to join Starfleet. Sneaky changeling boss. Very funny. Yes, excellent. Yes, it was very sneaky. Excellent. Oh, my goodness.

All right, Armin. Etymology. So, no etymology today. Oh, okay. Actually, I have poetry for you. What? No, I didn't write it. I didn't write it, so don't get too excited.

Oh, okay. This was written about 450 years ago. The title, Heart of Stone, was first written by a man named William Shakespeare. It is from a play called Twelfth Night, a play that I am directing right now. Oh, wow. And we may have opened by the time you see this. And it is from Act 3, Scene 4, Line 1743. Olivia says it to Viola, and she says,

I have said too much unto a heart of stone and laid mine honor to Uncherry out. There's something in me that reproves my fault, but such a headstrong, potent fault it is, that it but mocks reproof. And you know what? I don't know whether they were considering that quote, when they chose this for the title.

But it does play into the episode quite a bit. So if it's serendipity, that's good. If it was purposeful, you know, more power to the writers. Yeah. Well, you are right on that hunch. It was purposeful. The title of this episode comes from, and the plot was partly inspired by William Shakespeare's 12th night.

So yes. Oh, wow. And what's interesting, if I may, this is said, this quote is said, when one of the lovers, we'll call it that, when Olivia realizes that she has put her heart out to another and that person has rejected them, has rejected her. So in a sense, that's what happens in this episode. Or at least the rejection isn't there,

but the putting your heart out for it to be open and available does happen in the episode. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, there's another influence gentleman for the writing of this script. And it was, or at least for the Cura and Odo storyline in this episode, it was partly based on a 1964 Ken Casey novel, sometimes a great notion, which then became a 1971 film. So in the book and also the film, the character's leg is trapped underneath a large log, causing him to subsequently drown when he is unable to free his, when he is unable to free his life. leg to prevent water rising above his head.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with that particular moment in the film, but it is one of the most terrifying scenes that I have ever seen on film. I don't think I've seen the movie before. And the actor who is drowning gives a brilliant, beyond brilliant, before. As the hero is trying to save him from this death and the guy drowned. thinks it's very funny he's drowning and he thinks it's funny it is a horrifying moment in the film i will never forget that scene and i i'm old and i've forgotten the name of the actor who i'm referring

to if you're any way just to see that scene that moment it's well worth watching what's the name of the movie again sometimes a great moment a great notion notion notion sometimes a great notion okay to check that out i've never seen it yeah a quote from iris stephen bear on the film adaptation of sometimes a great notion in that particular scene that Armand just referenced how riveting it was. Iris says, it's a great scene in a not-so-great movie. So that's the one thing that stood out.

And that's the one thing you remember from that movie, Arment is that horrifying and riveting performance by that actor in that horrible. Yeah, and he wasn't the lead actor, and I really should remember who the actor was, but he dies relatively early in the movie. it is a brilliant performance a brilliant performance wow that's awesome sounds like a terrifying scene yeah it is i wonder if nana had seen that had had you know if anyone mentioned it to her and

she watched that in terms of her performance or her circumstances if she did there's there's no connection what the actor does and what nana does in the scene are radically different so so uh well although the writing might indicate once or twice that the writers indeed were familiar with the scene because what they ask Nanaat to do, and she does it, she does it, but it's not comparable. Yeah, okay. Well, when interviewed about this episode,

Nanad did explain that this was a difficult episode for her to film primarily because of her claustrophobia. So if you think about especially towards the end, when she's completely encased in that. Oh, God, I'm claustrophobic. I can relate to that. I can't feel trapped. It's the worst feeling.

It really is. I'm looking at the shots, and yes, I knew that too, that this was a problem for Nana. But I asked myself, why did they need the back? If she was claustrophobic, that meant she was encased in the structure. Why did they need the back? They never shot the back. You don't see it. No.

Never. you see a little bit on the top when it's way up here yeah yeah i mean you know when you go to the dentist and they take x-rays they put the the lead thing on it could have been that we didn't need to have a back she didn't have to be yeah she didn't have to suffer from from her claustrophobia i don't know i don't know i wonder if also for nana because she's a dancer because she was so used to moving and expressing herself as an actor through her movement and her body to feel like that tool is taken away completely, must have felt, you know, unusual for her, I would think. Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. I once did a play where I was encased in an urn, and I don't suffer, thankfully, from claustrophobia. So, but I do remember it was very confining. Yeah. Not in a bad way. It just was, oh, okay, but that's what the situation. No different, really, than wearing prosthetic makeup, really. Yes, yes.

Yes, yes, yeah. What else you got there, Garrett? Any more trivia? Yeah, a little more trivia. Cast and crew alike, absolutely did not enjoy the crystalline rock formation. Really? It was, yeah, the visual effects for that. And the actual prop itself of the rock was a horrible prop.

Iris Stephen Bearer called it, That horrible, horrible prop of a rock is what he called it. Nana said that when she read the script she had a different she had envisioned something completely different and when they filmed with what they filmed she felt like it looked nothing like what she had envisioned and she felt like

it was a big old hot fudge Sunday with her head as the cherry on top is how she felt so Alexander Singer the director Alex Singer said nothing nothing made the pinkish lavender rock look more realistic So whatever they tried to do, it was just very disappointing that the prop did not come out the way they wanted to. So I have a question for Robbie about that.

If everybody hated this prop, certainly they must have looked at it before we started shooting. Why didn't somebody say something to say, you know, no, go back to the table and work something else out. This looks horrible. Why didn't that? I realize it's a bottle show and they're trying to save money, but this couldn't have cost that much to make. Yeah, I don't know. Mike, I've been in situations like that before where you've got this design.

Everybody's talked about it forever. You finally all agree and sign off on the design portion. And then it's delivered at the last minute. They probably didn't see this prop because of the schedule. You know, you guys made this show every cell. days you were doing a new episode. Eight, eight, eight days. So they probably didn't see it much more than the day before.

And I don't know if they saw it on camera because they would have to do a film test to really know how it photographs. So sometimes you don't know until you're out there doing it. Now, nowadays, I would say that if that happened, I would go ahead and shoot it and make a note that we're going to enhance this with visual effects. We have to do something that it's, you can't stop shooting, but you would make it look better. We've done that on Resident Alien with some of the bits and gags where it just doesn't quite look great when we film it, but you enhance it later on. They didn't have the technology back then.

It's a prop that looks like from the original Star Trek series, rather than something, you know, 20, 30 years later. It does. Well, continuing on what Armand said, Robbie, if they didn't have the prop ready to show the director and the actors, would they have shown them a sketch or would it just have been just... Oh, yeah. They would have seen a design and a concept and a plan of how are we going to, you know, show these different stages and what's the process that we swap out, you know, this stage for the next stage and they had a plan, I have no doubt. And they may have seen it beforehand, but sometimes unless you film... You know, the prop to your eye, you might kind of go, eh, it doesn't look great, but when it's on film,

it'll look better. And then you film it, and it's worse. Yeah. Is that why the lighting in those scenes was so dark, was to take the light off the prop? Maybe. I mean, I honestly, I, as in all cave scenes on Star Trek, I often wonder, where is the light coming from?

Exactly. They did eventually have that tripod with a light on it that I saw in a wide shot, but, Yeah. Yeah, it's always tricky in these caves scenes to motivate where the light comes from. Because the real cave is pitch black. Right. No light.

Yeah. So on Voyager, we always use those silly flashlights that were on our on your wrist. Yeah. To sort of illuminate the caves. Okay. Written by Iris Stephen Bear and our good friend, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, directed by Alex Singer. Oh. And interestingly enough, I mean, we don't have any guest stars.

we don't already know about. We know Aaron Eisenberg, we know Max Kredenchik. But Salomey Jens actually agreed to have her credit at the end so that it wouldn't give away the secretist, which is nice, you know. I mean, I think an actor can be a little, can act like a divot and say, no, I will not have my name at the end. But Salome was a team player and wanted the reveal to be a true reveal. So I love it.

Oh, that's clever. Perhaps the background on that is that Salomey Jen. is one of the American theater's finest actors. She's been doing theater all of her life. So the idea of being part of an ensemble and giving a little here and there is part of her DNA. So she probably, her agent probably didn't like it,

but she probably said, no, if this helps the story, let's do it. Yeah, yeah. And you're right, guys, this is a bottle show because they had to make up for all the money they spent on past tense, that whole, you know, the whole earth and, what was it, Bell Riots? Yes, the Bell riots thing.

So that took a lot of money. And so this is a nice little bottle show to make up for those overspending budgets that they had before. I love that Alex Singer directed your show. We had Alex on our show a few times. I loved him. What a great guy. I wish she was my grandfather. So much fun.

Great storyteller. That's how much I loved him. Yeah. He was awesome. Love Alex Singer. All right. Well, let's dive right in. We've got a log at the beginning of this.

First Officer's Log. So it's Kira, I think. Star Date 48-521. Kira says, Odo and I are returning to Deep Space Nine after reviewing security procedures at profits landing the Bajoran colony closest to the Cardassian border.

So we come into the runabout, the Mekong. Odo's very grumpy in this scene. He is. He's very, very grumpy. You can tell he's grumpy. He does this. Whenever he does this, that's when he's grumpy. Exactly.

He was grumpy because Kira said no to dinner without asking what he wanted. Which, okay, if you step back, what is this? This is basically a little bit of a tiff between a couple. This is what this is a lover's tip. Oh, this is a lover's quarrel entirely. You didn't ask me. You didn't get my permission, or you didn't consult me first. And that's what I loved about this scene.

Very funny. Let us remember, as we talk about this episode, previous to this episode, Kira has just lost Bariah. That's right. Oh, yeah. And I, this is very important to me as I watch this episode. Yeah. Actually, now that you put it in that context, it is important for Odo to remember as well.

Very important. And for the arc for Akira as well. Yeah. I just love that Odo's the one who wants to be the one to say no to dinner. Especially when he doesn't eat. Exactly. Another thing we kind of glazed over is that beginning log and also in the scene, they talk about that colony.

What a cool and creative name for the colony itself. Prophets Landing. Nobody's even said anything about that. Oh, yeah. It's catchy. Yeah. It's Proffets landing. Yeah, the prophet.

It sounds like a shopping mall. Oh, I got to go to some Christmas shopping at Proffs Landing. Have you been to that amazing Bajoran Mall? Profits Landing? It's fabulous. Yeah. But it's in the bad lands. So you have to push a while to get there. Yeah.

It does. You may or may not make it to the mall. Parking is horrible, yeah. But they pick up of a distress call. A Lusepian supply ship has been attacked by a perigern. in Peregrine-class maquiship, and there's only one life sign on this maquiship.

And he sees it on censors, so they decide to follow this maquis ship. It's always going to lead to trouble. So here's the first of many quibbles. Yes. Me too. Me too. Me too. Full disclosure.

If they know it's a life sign, can't they distinguish what kind of life sign it is? I mean, how do you know it's a life sign? How do you distinguish a life sign? The makeup of this particular character on this ship without giving anything away is different than some other life signs. Yes. You mean the genetic makeup?

That's right. That's right. Yeah, not the prosthetics. No, no, no. The genetic makeup. It shouldn't have that come up? All right. You would think so.

Because, never mind. If go any further, it's to give things away. I'm picking up a single Cardassian life sign on the thing, right? Yes. I'm picking up three Klingon life signs on the thing. Yeah, you'd think they would know. We have seen that where they go, you know, there's one human aboard. Yeah, they can do that.

So, you shouldn't. Now, granted. They should know what kind of life signs on there. Agreed. You know what I love about what Armand said? He goes, here's my quibble. And then I immediately thought about there used to be a pet food that used to advertise all the time called kibbles and bits. Exactly. And so this would be the new segment of the Delta Flyers journey through a wormhole with Armin, whibbles and bits. Wibbles and bits. I love that. Yes. Okay. And I have a long list to give you.

Yes. But for me, I love playing devil's advocate to throw out the other viewpoint. And that would be because, because, I mean, we now know who's behind this. right? So this is a very powerful person, individual. And I feel that they are able to mask the life sign. They're able to, just like you've seen other episodes where Cisco will say, or Brian will say, I am basically making it so that our runabout gives off this to sensors, where we are going to be masked as a transport and not a runabout. So if you're able to mask your readings to fake people out on terms of what ship you are. I'm assuming you could do the same thing

about what type of life... Maybe. What type of, yeah, human being or being you are. It feels like a quibble and bit from Armin that could have easily been solved with some dialogue.

They could have said something like... We're picking up one life science, can't determine exactly what it is. There's interference. Yeah, there's something's going on with their ship. They've lost attitude control. Yes, you're right.

You're right. You're right. That quibble could have been quickly solved. It could have been a bit. It could have just been a bit. But now it's still a quibble. Smaller bit.

It's still a quibble. Okay, so we've got the, they decided to chase this thing. Yeah. And then we've got our opening credits. They're chasing him. We come back. They're close to this Peregrine class ship. They're close to it, but this thing's going pretty fast.

They're in the badlands. Their sensors are getting jammed. Hard to get a lock on him. So they do sort of reference here. They're trying to beam him over, but they can't get a lock on him. Right. And then the badlands are giving them all kinds of trouble with their communication sensors and things. Anyway, he disappears onto a moon.

There's a moon here. They decide to follow him onto the moon. And it's not going to go well. It never goes well when you go down on a moon. I don't think we've ever gone to a moon and had a great time. any of any of the characters never or an unknown planet right don't go there yeah but but look at the last line next to last line from odo i don't know something in the moon's atmosphere is jamming our sensors anything anytime something jams your sensors you know it's trouble it's always going to be

trouble and what is kira's response i guess we'll have to land and see for ourselves it's it's the typical response it's like huh yeah that's let me let me ask a question not a a quibble or a bit but a question is there a distress signal no no so if there's no distress signal what are they doing going after this ship if there's no distress signal because they attack the now odo says the ship's in in trouble yes i get that um i suppose that's enough i suppose that's yeah i think they're chasing this this maquis bad guy that attack somebody right and they're trying to be the hero. Yeah, they're trying to be the hero. Exactly. Well, poor. Yeah. They're trying to be a hero. They have no authorization. They weren't even involved in this thing. And they're going to

go down to a moon that's jamming their sensors. Yeah. Not smart. No, not good. Next up, we are in the commander's office. We basically see Cisco kind of looking over some information on a had and O'Brien calls Cisco and Cisco's like, what's going on? And he says, well, there's someone here to see you and it's Nog. And this is very surprising because

honestly, has there ever been a scene with Nog and Cisco until now? There's been scenes with them like in the same scene, but not I don't, you're right. I don't think Nog has ever been in Ops before. No. No. He's definitely never been

in commander's office either. right so yeah that's again i love the way that alex singer framed nog waiting outside and i hated that oh you did yes i did let's go into this why did you like it because we've never seen him there um you had o'brien it was almost like he was down in the pit or something it was like the the you know the the the the groundling who doesn't ever get a chance to come into oz or something yeah It felt like Oz. It felt like somebody had entered Oz in this amazing place. And I thought it was funny.

I thought it not funny, but yeah, I thought it was fitting for Nog coming to ask the wizard for something. That's how I. Armin. And it's that very reason that I didn't like it. So for me, when I saw that shot, having played many judges over the course of my career, it looks like a judge looking at a defendant. So, okay. and that has some credence to it. But because I'm a huge Ferengi advocate,

it made Nog look like so inconsequential that in my mind it's another slap at the Ferengi. They're just these tiny, small, insignificant things that have no business being in ops. That's what that shot said to me. That's the point of view that I come from. Yeah. I get that.

Yes, being that you played a Ferengi, that's definitely a trigger for you in terms of the treatment of Ferengi on the show, at least in the beginning, the first few seasons. I can understand the arc of the character that what you said, Robbie, is actually probably quite right for this episode because Aaron is...

Nog is going to go through a great arc, or at least an arc in this episode. So maybe starting out as an insignificant figure, is the right thing to do. It just a personal... It just reinforces the personal quibble and bit, yeah. Quibbling bit. I'm so glad that I've coined that now.

That's great. I love it. But, Armin, let's say we reversed it. Let's say now the camera's lower and it's like a hero shot on Nog. It doesn't make sense for the storyline at all. That's right. That's right.

So you do see the logic. But it could have been a midway point. Oh, yeah. It could have shot in like any. other character in this episode you could have this one is demeaning it's a demeaning it was very extreme for sure so you're just saying armin you're just asking for a little change in the angle of of degree that's it you don't have to be that extreme is what you're saying okay also having been on ops many times yeah the floor isn't that far down from the right i couldn't tell where he was that's why i said was he in the pit

it looked it was very extreme yeah it was very extreme yeah it was really to me because I've played judges. It's a shot of a judge looking at somebody who's in front of their big desk. There is no big desk in ops, so, you know. No. Nag is in ops telling O'Brien to tell Cisco

that it's urgent. O'Brien does relay that message in. And I just love Cisco's I love Avery's take on when he said send him me. He's like, send him it? Because he has no clue what's going on, right? But very well played by Avery in terms of that very, that throw. You're like,

send him in, I guess. I love when Nog's last line to O'Brien when he says, I told you he'd see me. I love that. Exactly. Very good. Well, he does enter. He shakes Cisco's hand.

I don't know who came up with that. I don't know if that's in the script or not. It's not in the script. It's not in the script. Interesting. I don't know if that's Aaron. It probably is Aaron. If it's not in the script.

I don't think it was Alex Singer. So I really like what that says to me. is that I'm trying to reach out and to do human behavior, not Ferengi behavior, Ferengi never shake hands, but to do a human behavior, to say, yes, I can be part of your group. And I love the way the handshakes change over the course of this episode. You know what? I was wrong. I went back. It wasn't in the transcript I had, but I went to the original script. It does say,

Nag sticks his handout for Cisco to shake. It's Ira. Or Robert Hu, Wolf, in which case, Bravo to the two writers. Because I really like that detail. I did too. That's not a quibble or bit. That's a, I like that.

Yeah, a nonverbal communication. And it works quite well because there's that through line of it throughout because at times Cisco does shake it. And other times he doesn't. So it's very telling. But he is there to make the announcement that he has just completed the Frangy attainment. ceremony, which is, you know, it's now, it's a bar mitzvah.

It's a bar mitzvah, is what I'm saying, or a bat mitzvah, if you're a female. But yes, he's an adult now, finally. And one of the things about being an adult, a fringy adult, is that he has to choose a mentor to apprentice be under. And he's there to choose Cisco. And to commemorate this moment, he has a handful of, you know, of latinum to give as a gift it's like in a bag right it's like it's a bag of latinle i think the bundle yes bundle it's a bundle bundle of latinum yeah nox says in this scene he wants to be a start

fleet officer says basically i want you to be you know my mentor i want to i want you to help me i want to go to the academy i don't think he says he wanted to go to the academy no cisco says you have to go to the academy you have to go to the academy nox says where do i sign up yeah well first he says where do i get my uniform like where's who's going to hand up but he already thinks he's just gets the uniform immediately. Yeah, no. And that's when Cisco says, you need to go to the academy first. And he says, okay, I'll just sign up for that easily.

He doesn't understand the ramifications of what it takes to become a Starfleet officer. And if we may also point out, sorry, that in a previous episode, Cisco has wanted Jake to go to the academy. That is right. Yeah. And Jake says, no, that's not what he wants to do. So it's interesting that Jake's good friend, Nog, wants, in a sense, to take his place.

Yeah. And that's also something that Robert Hewitt Wolf spoke about. He said that essentially, because we have already established that Jake does not want to follow in his father's footsteps, that opened a door for Nog to be that person. And that was the right way to go. I think a lot of people are very happy about this twist and turn in the plot for Young Nog. I think in the scene, he doesn't say no, but he says, he says, yeah, I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. We just don't give, we don't just give Starfleet uniforms to anyone. And then does

Nog pull out more Latin? He's like trying to bribe him. No. No. Oh, he doesn't? No, he doesn't try to bribe him. And it's not a, it may be a bribe. Of course, it may be a bribe. But the tradition would be that if you're going to be my mentor, I have to pay you for that. Right. Yeah. So that's, the handshake is human. The bundle of Latin is Ferengi. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And that's really what's happening in this episode for what I consider to be the A story and not the B story. Yeah. I agree with the story. The A story. And that's what's happening in the A story for me. So in Ferengi culture, that is standard operating procedure. In Ferengi culture, if you ask for anything, you have to pay for. Yeah.

And I think he says that. He doesn't he say something like it's tradition to, after my attainment, sir, I must purchase an apprenticeship from a suitable role model. Yeah. So he lays it all out there what that tradition is. He makes the effort of being human first by sticking out his hand. Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

Well, Cisco says a non-federation citizen needs a letter from a command level officer. And Knox says, Okay, write me a letter. Cisco's like, well, let me think about this. So he's taken, he's taken him back. Yes. Yeah, I mean, we have to appreciate where Cisco's coming from, which is that up until now,

Nog has done nothing at all to be worthy of going to the academy. Nothing. I mean, the last episode that I remember seeing him in, he was being misogynistic about the girls on the date. And he's been, he's thieved at the original. episode he's he's done a number of things it's not just being a ferengi he has been an outlaw and um and so i can understand cisco's um reticence about writing him a letter of recommendation which of course would have his name on it and would reflect back on his judgment about recommending someone like nog for

the captain yeah yeah because up until now we have not seen nog walk the straight and narrow path no at all And really, the stuff that you have seen Nog in, it's talking about girls. It's doing funny little typical teenager stuff. Typical teenage. Well, this is the first time I think that Nog has suggested that he's growing beyond that, that he's thinking about the future. And it's a big step for him. Well, he's become an adult.

Yes. I mean, he's become an adult. He's had the ceremony. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, the ceremony, I guess, was the catalyst or the spark plug, which, really gave him focus, because up until this point, he's sort of aimless in a way, the character. He's just, he's hearing some episodes, other scenes, he's not. And now he has

a direct, he has a very, very specific goal in mind. And now you see some aim and some drive and some purpose in this character, which is very exciting for the viewers. I think to me, what it speaks to is the value of some of these traditions of a coming of age ceremony. You know, I think it's a loss in our culture, honestly, that some of the, these traditions have been minimized or you know so many people have gotten away from them because historically they've sort of marked these turns and for for nog it marked a moment where he had to intentionally and very consciously choose to stop being a child stop being a teenager right because all of that teenage behavior is normal whether you're ferengi or human or whatever it's that's what

you do but a certain point culturally you kind of go all right now you've done that you've gotten sewed your wild oats or whatever, now is the time where we expect you to behave differently. And I really think those traditions can be very valuable. Well, we still have one that's always there, which is when people graduate from high school, they have to choose what the rest of their life is going to be. Are they going to continue with their education or are they going to go out and get a job? That's a demarcation that we still have and that everybody has to face. What am I going to do when I get my diploma?

Yeah. All right. We're back on the caves, back on the moon. The moon that they should never go to. They weren't invited. And there's all kinds of disturbances. They can't even communicate. Why are they going there? But they do. The moon of death. Yes. Looking for this fugitive. Lots of moonquakes. I'll introduce the moonquakes. Do moonquakes make sense, really? No. And it doesn't help this episode in the least. I don't understand why they're there. It doesn't make, except they don't really, it doesn't, they aren't really a threat. They aren't. No. And when you've seen the whole episode, they are meaningless. They really were only there to annoy Arm and Zimmerman. That's the only reason.

But it doesn't help the episode. There's one moment where they deal with the moon quakes. And that's just, that's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It shows, but that's later on. I know the scene we'll talk about it then. But these quakes don't make any difference. No. I don't have a problem with them. Robbie, clearly you're also team quibble and bit on this point. That's fine.

Can you tell me how they help? How they help the episode? Well, they did help in that one part. Yes, in the one scene, exactly. But other than that, they didn't need that. It could have just had it happen then. Oh, my gosh, this new level of urgency. as opposed to constant moonquakes. I just like to say.

I feel like moonquakes, it feels like a dessert. Like, oh. Well, that would be moon cake, not moon cake, right? That's what I'm thinking. And that's very popular in the Chinese culture. We have moon cakes for the moon festival, the autumn fall festival. So, yeah. Growing up in the south, we had moon pies.

Yeah, that's right, moon pies, which is, tell us what a moon pie is, Robbie, for those of us who don't know. It's got like a cookie with marshmallow in the middle. and it's covered in chocolate. Like a hard chocolate shell. Like a hard chocolate shell with a cookie kind of, yeah, something in marshmallow. It's pretty good, moon pies. Yeah.

All right, so there's a moonquake. They're down in these caves. They decide to split up, which is never a smart idea. No. Why? Let's split up and find that fugitive. We'll meet back here in 20 minutes.

You know, I go back to scene one just for a second. Are we quibling? Yes, we're quibling. Yeah. So we've just, in that scene, we have a discussion about you didn't ask me for my opinion. You didn't ask me whether I wanted to go to the other night. Kira doesn't really ask Odo, should we go down to this moon? He says, okay.

In a sense, he says okay. And now the splitting up, there's no discussion, whether this is good or bad. We know it's bad. But there's no discussion from Odo. It's just simply, I'm giving orders. I think there's quite a bit of this of just once we've actually got aired it, then she forgets about it, as though if we had that discussion, if any of us had that discussion with our significant others, with our wives, we would think, okay, I really should ask permission

here. I should have a conversation here. If not permission, at least have a conversation. We were reminded at the end of this episode that she's the superior officer. She could say no to dinner without asking him, just. based on rank. I mean, I get his personal point, but, yeah. But, yeah, she is the ranking officer.

I mean, this is one of the few times where she pulls rank in an episode where she says, I'm your superior officer. Yeah. And then, of course, he just resigns his commission. Smart move. I would say, if you're going to set up that we need to talk about things, why aren't they talking about things? No.

She's just bossing them around. Yeah. If you're going to track from that very first scene, when she says, I don't want to stay here any longer than we have to. I say we split up. We meet back here in 20 minutes. She could have said, I don't want to stay here any longer than we have to.

What do you think, Odo? Should we split up? I mean, maybe we can meet back. I mean, yes. She could have consulted him because of that prior conversation in the runabout. You're right. Agreed. You're right.

Okay. So Odo's going down a passageway, and then he hears Kira calling for help in the distance. Almost immediately. Almost immediately. Literally five seconds later. He turns around, runs back to help her

comes back to this chamber where he finds her foot stuck in what looks like I don't know a rock basically on the ground yeah what looks like a prop it looks like a prop it does her foot has a crystal rock

wrapped around it and she says it's in case in this crystal and it's spreading so we set up her problem she's got a rock growing around her feet How do you step into a rock? I don't know.

She thought it was a fisher or something. I guess so. Well, if there's moonquakes, there's all kinds of crazy things happening here. She stepped on a rock and it sucked her foot into it, I guess. Is what we're supposed to believe. Right. It's what we're supposed to believe. Yes.

Moon rocks can be dangerous as well. Yes, they can. Everybody, PSA. Watch out for moon rocks. If there's a moon quake, get out of there. All right. Back in the chamber. this is where I made the note

how is there so much light in this cave they didn't have flashlights on I didn't see any lantern they brought with them but it's bright it was super bright in there just an aside you know what would have solved that Robbie

is if they made the crystal the light source if that thing was yes and now you got light it makes sense or if the walls have been luminescent luminous yes yes

Because I don't know if I've told this story, but I'll tell it real quick. My son Carter came to visits in Utah, and there are these cave tours you can go on. These, the park service, you have to reserve it. You go in these caves with the park ranger. We go down. We have to get on our knees sometimes to get into these chambers. And there's lights. They've, you know, ran electrical so that there's lights in the caves.

We get into a big chamber, and the park ranger says, this chamber is where the two young boys first discovered this. cave system he tells the story and he said i'm going to turn out the lights so you see what these boys saw a hundred years ago when they stumbled upon these caves and he turns out the lights i have never felt such darkness in my life it was i i have my hands like in front of my face nothing like you could not see so yeah when i see scenes like this i'm like where's that light coming from because it's dark caves are dark yeah so luminescent walls would have been good like Armand's Seed. Would have helped. Or a lantern.

If they're going into caves, if they know they're going into caves, I'm sure they've got a lantern somewhere that can illuminate. Well, Keir's foot is stuck. Oda tries smashing it with a rock. He picks up a rock. Yeah. As opposed to morphing into something that could, like a mallet or a sledgehammer, you know. What a wonderfully modern.

technical thing a rock is to smash another. Why not? In a sci-fi show. Yeah, in a sci-fi show, exactly. Exactly. He can morph into anything. So Kirish should have said, Odo,

just morph into a jackhammer. A jackhammer. And take care of this, but he didn't do that. No. He asked her to slip her foot out of her boot, and she says, no. I can barely feel my foot.

The crystal was pressing so hard. There's no way to get the boot off. So that gives you a little more indication of how restricting is. Squeezing. Yeah, squeezing. She tries to fazer it. Yes, another equivalent bit.

What we know of who's in the boot, phasering the rock should inflict some damage to the entity. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what we learned later, if the entity actually phasers itself. Yeah. Yeah. This is a bit of a rule change. This is a big quibble. I hear you. Yeah, there's no way out of this quibble. No, because...

If the rock is part of the entity, then the entity is phasering itself, and it would have... Damage. Damage. Yeah. The one of the better word. Unless the phaser is just a... Unstun? No, it's just...

Yeah, it could be on stunt, but it's still part of the entity. the phaser itself, correct? No, there's a physical phaser. He picks it up later. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, he picks it up later and points it at the entity when he figures all this out.

Yeah, this is a big quibble. I don't have a way out of this one. So the entity brought a phaser down there with them. No, the entity took Kira's phaser, I would think. Oh, yes, correct. So that is Kira's actual phaser then. That makes sense. I think so.

Okay. All right, good catch. All right. Well, that's the end of the episode. episode, everybody. Thank you very much. We are done. Good job, gentlemen. You guys look good. So where are you going for dinner? Yes, let's have Thai food, I think, is a good choice. I'll join you on that. Okay. All right. Well, let's just keep going and just let's forget we know this right now. She phasers her rock, her rock foot. Yeah. And it grows. It grows. It grows much bigger.

Yeah. Odo tries to beam them out. Too much interference in this seismic moon quake planet, moon. When you're saying too much interference, now I'm abbreviating that to TMI. That's a whole new way of doing TMI. And earlier when Armand was talking about, you know, my quibble was when she phasered the rock, all I could think about was Dwayne Johnson was there. And phasered by. You're out of the most creative mind of substituting in acronyms and puns and. And Johnson was the person holding the lantern. That's where the light comes from.

That's right. Dwayne, the Rock, Johnson was in the case. with the lantern. Yes. All right. Okay, let's go. Sorry. Yeah.

Otto says, I can't get, you know, us beamed out of here. I'm going to walk back to the runabout and try to figure this out. Yeah, he goes, I'm going to walk back to the landing site, try to transport you from there. Right. So maybe that'll work. Reverse transporting. But at the end, there is a little exchange where Kira says, are you worried about leaving me? which is a little telling like and otto says yes now that now that you mention it yes did your red

flag come up right there you're a self-aware yes okay and and by the way i wonder if if nana because she knows the end of the story how differently she was playing this from herself it seemed different to me it did seem different it i think she did take that into consideration oh definitely i don't know for sure i mean she's never spoken to me about it but but but But it did seem from the playing that there was a slight difference. Something was off about it. Yeah. And, you know, at times early on, I was like, oh, is she just to use a judgment call on it?

Is it like bad acting or something? Or something seemed odd about it. And I think she was playing a bit of the end of what we come to learn. Yeah. That this wasn't authentically the Kira speaking here. Right. The real Kira. Okay, so the next scene is at Quarks.

We're in Quarks Bar, the A story, as I like to call it, Armin. And I like to call it, the B story. I mean, the A story, excuse me. Rom is trying to repair a replicator. And I think Nog is there. Quark is there. Well, Quark arrives. And Quark is very rude, in my opinion.

Yes, he is. He's very dismissive and blaming everything on Rom. In fact, I think he says everything that goes wrong here is your fault. It's in your contract. It's in your contract, exactly. And then Rahm agrees with him. He goes, you're right. Uncle, brother, I should have explained this better.

So Rahm is just taking all the blame. Yep. And Nag is clearly embarrassed. I feel bad. You see Nag just not happy with how this exchange is going. that's when Jake arrives. Jake shows up and he he thinks this whole thing with his dad was a joke about joining Starfleet. Nog gets very mad in the scene. He says he was serious. And he says his reasons are personal. So he doesn't tell Jake why. Tells Jake to leave, in fact, at the end of

the scene. So a lot happens in this scene, yeah. Yeah. Yes, and it's a growing arc for Nog as well. he's not only made a decision to join Starfleet but I think it's the first time we've been seen him actually very serious about seeing Jake get out you know stop he's done it comically before but this this was a very sort of telling moment

and of course Jake doesn't understand which I thought that he played incredibly well yeah yeah yeah Yeah. Nog says there's nothing to figure out here. I'm joining Starfleet, and that's that. Now, if you don't mind, I have a lot of work to do. Yeah, very adult. And reinforces the quizzicalness of Cisco. I don't understand why you want to do this. Even Nog's best friend doesn't understand why he wants to do this.

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That's mintmobile.com slash TDF. Up front payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details we do see a cool establishing shot of the of this magical moon planet with the with the shuttle with the runabout on it and it's kind of a beautiful shot yes they did models i don't know how you know what that shot how they made that shot but it was cool i thought it was very cool yeah i'm not usually blown away by establishing shots but this was a good one

Oh, good. We're back in the runabout. Odo is trying to beam Nihana, beam Kira out of there. But there's an atmospheric ionization that is inhibiting a transporter lock. Odo says, can you compensate? Computer says no. Or Major Barrett says no. And then essentially, Odo is like, okay, I need to launch a communications probe to broadcast our whereabouts.

So we can get some help from D-Space 9. Probe is launched. Odo says, how long can we expect help to come from D-Space 9? And the computer says, oh, two days. And at that point, he's like, you know, he's beside himself because he doesn't have two days to save. No, because there's moonquakes. There's moonquakes. There's expanding crystals.

It's expanding crystal, I think, more than the moonquakes. But go ahead. Go ahead, because I have another quibble in bit coming. Oh, say it. Please. Jump. Okay. So he finds that it's going to take two days because of the interference and stuff like that.

Correct. If he was in space, how long would it take for him to communicate with a deep space night? Almost instantaneously. How long would it take for him to fly that ship, which we've seen he's capable of, to fly that ship out of the moon and its surrounding aura, and fly into space and make that call? Probably minutes. minutes seconds yeah because the runabout is not damaged the runabout is not crash landed here

they're not no no if he really wants to save kira all he needs is a five-minute trip into space or let's make it twice as long a 10 minute trip into space make the call and then take 10 minutes to go back to Kira in the cave. I just went, no, this just doesn't make sense to me. Also, as far as getting Kira out, the crystal may be embedded in the moon very deeply. I don't know. But if I were Odo and capable of transforming into anything,

I would transform myself into a gurney and we'll put it on the gurney, or put, you know, put her on the gurney. There's a lot of solutions here that they just are not trying because they want to have. Or, well, what do you call it when you, when you, a medical person puts your arm, puts their arm around you and you help them out? Oh, yeah.

Attached to the earth? I suppose she is and that. But anyway, so forget about the gurney. I still think he could have gone into space and communicated ASAP with, yeah. Yeah, he's only got one solution. this kind of vibration frequency thing that he keeps trying

that's getting him nowhere. Well, we haven't gotten to that yet, but yes, I mean, but team quibble in bits strikes again. Yes, you're right. He could have given that message by flying the runabout out of it.

Actually, he could have flown out and flown back to Deep Space 9 to give that message in person and gone all the way back there. He could have gone all the way back and come back in enough time to save her. And also, why didn't he try to dig around or underneath the rock.

Like, because we don't know how far it goes down. That's right. Here's an analogy I have for what you're saying. Yeah. So here I am in Vancouver in this apartment. And let's say I wanted to get a hamburger from the place on the corner. Yeah. And I'm trying to get DoorDash on my phone.

And I'm like, oh, my phone is just, I can't get DoorDash. I guess I'm going to starve to death. Right. Or I could take the elevator down, go get my burger and come back. And I wouldn't starve to death. Exactly. So basically that's the same thing. It's like, yeah, that.

It's why I have a problem with the threat, this whole episode dealing with this threat. And I think there's so many ways to get around it. It isn't a life-threatening threat no matter what they tell me. Yeah. I agree with you. But I like the A story with NOG. Yes, so do I. You know what?

Let's just talk about the NOG scenes and skip everything with Kira and Odo from this point forward. You would wipe away all my quibbles and things. I know. They're fun. They're fun. All right, we're back in the chamber. There's Odo heading back in the chamber. He hears phaser fire.

Sounds like a battle going on where Kira is down the tunnel. Right. And there's another moon quake. And he runs back into this chamber. And the crystal is now up past her knees growing more. Kira is armed. She says, this Maki fugitive found her. and they were exchanging shots

but they both missed and Odo is examining the phaser marks and he does comment he said boy it was close you didn't miss by much here you were very lucky so these phaser marks are going to

play an important part later later on yeah yeah and and Kira says you know you missed our friend he came out of the tunnel I think he was as surprised as I was, and he fired at me and then ran back down the tunnel.

And disappears for the rest of the episode. Yeah. Yeah. And if Odo had just said, well, what did he look like? And just started asking a few more questions. I think he would have busted open this whole con pretty quickly. Probably. But he does check out these phaser marks.

Back on the promenade up in the upper level, Bashir and Cisco are walking and talking. I like this little conversation. There's it has nothing to do with anything yeah absolutely it's lower decks it really has lower it's just it has nothing to do with anything but let's just talk about uh you know uh a male ensen volixopran and his budding babies so i don't know what volixopran what species he is but he i guess uh has egg egg sacks or something he's going to have twins he's he needs paternity leave basically. Cisco is very happy for Ensign Velixopran and grants him this reassignment for paternity leave and they talk about their baby shower. O'Brien and Bashir throwing a baby shower

for him. It's very cute. It's very cute. They're going to put in an order with Garrick for some new baby clothes. Is that how you say his name though? Didn't he say Velixpran? Because the way you're saying it, Robbie, it sounds like a new drug that they're advertising. Tri-valyxopran. It'll cause, you know, it'll keep you from incontent. Yeah. It'll cause me.

Some side effects are pregnancy, multiple pregnancies. Yes. That's good. Yes. I also like that O'Brien is building him a hatchling pond. Yes. We've never heard about these aliens. I want to meet them because they sound amazing.

Well, Robbie, this alien is actually, this ensign. is actually referred to in two other episodes, future episodes. So this is, yeah, this is a lower decker that they talk about, but we never see. So there's more conversation about the Lixopran later. Can't wait. Cisco heads into Quarks, it looks like. Nog is at a counter with a customer, but he steps aside to talk to Cisco. Ask him what he's decided.

Cisco says, you know, Nog has a very bad reputation. And, you know, he hasn't really, his. behavior has not earned him this letter and nog does admit that he's made some mistakes but he's going to do better he just wants a chance i want to commend the background actor that is being served by nog at the time because not completely ignores they're in mid-conversation and nog's like what oh there's Cisco boom just leaves and that background actor is like what what it was yeah it was like good job you know good job you know good job A lot of times background actors, they don't put 100% into it.

This one did. So, yeah, that's funny. And Nag doesn't even say, I'll be back in a moment. I mean, the minute he sees Cisco, he just leaves, which is very, very funny. And good on the background actor to play that because literally they could have just sat there with black face and not done anything. And they were a team player. We have another handshake moment here. Nag offers his hand at the end.

Just give me a chance. He holds out his hand, which I loved. In the commander's office, Cisco's talking to Dax here. And he tells Dax he wants Cargo Bay 12 inventoryed again. And he wants Nog to do it. And Dax is like, we just did that last week. But Cisco wants him to do it all by himself because he tells Dax that Nog wants to join Starfleet. I love Terry's reading on this.

Oh, my God. says so good yeah she says i always thought it'd be interesting to have a farangian starfleet but nog she sort of turns her head yeah it was very good reading it was you know how comedy happens in threes right so so so cisco says um dac says cisco says i already have someone in mind for the job dac says really who cisco says nogg and then cisco goes he asked for a recommendation to star fleet academy and terry goes nog so and then she has a third one You know, but Nog, and she played it perfectly. Each Nog built upon the prior Nog.

So good job to Terry Farrell. Yeah, it's very funny. Very funny. And Cisco insists he's got to do this alone. This is going to be a test to see how he does. Well, the test is also because of the valuable equipment in there. Because there is going to be temptation for his former self, which is teenager Nog, getting into trouble, stealing things. And so, yeah, this is a true test.

Yep, a real test. We're back down in our moon quake chamber. Yep. Now she's, Keir's got this rock crystal up to her waist. And she's scared and she's crying. And she thinks she's going to be completely covered in 12 hours. And then Odo has an idea because he reads these criminal activity reports. And they give him ideas sometimes.

So I guess a Gnossacken had used an ultrasonic generator to break. into a museum and somehow the vibrations from this ultrasonic generator were able to break the doors or the locks so he decides he's going to try to build one of these things back at the shuttle now it would have been much easier arman if he'd done what you said just fly back to the station get some out no instead he's going to build from scratch a generator that he heard referenced in a police report Robbie earlier you said that there was a bit of dialogue

where Kira says are you worried about leaving me alone and that was a little bit of a flag for you red flag and you were like oh did the crying give you a bit of a red flag at all because it did from yeah because what have we seen

of Kira so far she's a she's a battle hardened individual she's seen it all she's been in the worst circumstance I do not think that she would even allow a tear to come out at this point. So that to me, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what's happening here? Can you check this script and see if that's in there?

It does not say crying in that scene anywhere. It does not. So I would suggest then knowing the nature of how the actors worked on that show, that this was Kira's choice. This was an honest choice. Again, we go back to the question that you posed. Is she doing this because what we... know about the entity? Or is it just something that she thought because she was close to death

she as the character should cry? All I know was that was enormous red flag for me. Yeah, me too. Okay. So you guys both felt the same then. Yeah, I did too. Yeah. And I wasn't sure where it was coming from, but I, yeah, I didn't buy that the character would do that. Right. Didn't seem like the character we'd gotten to know. And she sobs pretty much for the rest the episode. Yeah, she does. Yeah. Yeah, and the squeezing, the behavior of kind of losing her breath, I don't know that that worked for me. I just, I didn't, I wasn't quite clear on, I know she said her, she couldn't get her foot out of the boot because it was so tight, but I think that needed a little more attention. And if we go back, sometimes a great notion, and she did play it

once or twice, and maybe even in this scene that we're talking about now, where the ridiculousness of this little tiny thing being the cause of a possible death is ludicrous to the character. That's what made that scene so powerful that he found it ridiculous that he was dying.

Yeah, I think there could have been some more authentic ways to have played this, even if we know what we know at the end, even within that context. Because I think there could have been more interesting and authentic and complex ways of playing it rather than sort of the straightforward melodrama of tears and suffering. But what Armand just said, to play the ridiculousness of the potential or the imminent death. Like, this is how I'm going to die?

Yeah, it would not bring tears. You would not bring tears. If anything, laughter would be coming out, if anything. Gallows humor. This is ridiculous. What? Yeah. It's just gallows humor.

exactly. Good call, good pick. Good quibble. Well, Hira does say that she promises to read those criminal activity reports if they get back. Yes, she does.

Next scene is in cargo bay. This is Dax telling Nog that due to a computer error, they just need to re-inventory this whole cargo bay again. And Cisco wants him to do it. And I think he says something like, when do you need it?

And she says, oh, tomorrow morning will be fine. And he says, I'll have it for him tonight before he'll have it tonight before he gets off duty. So he's he's very, yeah, very excited to do this. Determined. Yes. We're back in the chamber again. Now Odo has finally brought in a light.

This is the first time where I've seen a light source where they should have been in a dark cave. There's two of them. Yes, two on the pedestal. And he's got a generator, this vibration generator there. But the crystal, the rock is now come up to. And how did he bring those down in a trolley? The same trolley that could lift her out and taken her out. Yeah.

Unless he carried them. I suppose he could have carried them. Maybe he carried them. But Kira's covered up to her collarbone now. She's all the way up. You know, this rock is all the way up almost to her neck. So she's struggling to talk very weak. Yeah, all of this.

I would have liked to have seen your version, Armand, of the kind of laughing at this ridiculousness would have been interesting. So, Robbie, you would not have had any weakness of voice at all through the entire ordeal. I think there's space for that. I think she's physically suffering, but I just don't know if the character would have kind of succumbed to this suffering quite so easily without a fight or without a little more attitude. Yes, a little more sassiness that we're used to. Yeah, it felt sort of straightforward soapy to me. Yeah, so the question becomes, is Nanah trying to differentiate between herself and what she's playing?

That's, for me, the next time I see Nina, I really do want to ask her, was this a choice that she made? Yeah. Or is her mind scrambled because of the claustrophobia? Yeah, maybe, maybe. Yeah, I'm very claustrophobic. if I were in her situation, that would have been tough.

Or maybe in reading the script, maybe Nanaf felt like, okay, this is Salome, you know, and if this is Salome, why wouldn't I bring out the tears and add the extra emotion as much as I can to get anything out of Odo?

So who knows? This is maybe her take on that. Yeah. Yeah, but I think you should ask her and I would love to know the answer. Mm-hmm. Well, she's struggling to even talk, Odo wants to be back

by tomorrow night. He starts trying to distract her with stories here. Yeah. And he talks about getting home by tomorrow night because he's got these plans with O'Brien and Kira wants to hear about it. So O'Do goes off on a long description of what he and O'Brien do, this

kayaking. They go kayaking. Yes. It's been established before in a prior episode that O'Brien does the kayaking holiday program. So we do know of this. We know of it, but he describes this whole thing. thing and how dangerous and exciting it is. And Kira wonders, why do you keep doing it?

Why does he keep doing it? Or why do you keep doing it if it's so dangerous? And I like Odo's line here where he says humans have a hard time giving up something that they really love, even if it can hurt them. Yeah, I like that. That was a nice line. Yeah, it was almost like talking about him and, you know, in a way at that point. Absolutely.

But the funny part of this scene is when he talks about, well, if it helps it any, he's the one who does all the singing. And Kira's like, sing? Singing, see? Yeah, it's necessary to establish a smooth paddling rhythm to sing. And then Odo says ancient human sea shanties mostly, particularly fond of one called Louis Louis, which, again, very funny. That was very funny.

Oh, gosh. That was very funny. There's another big moon quake this time. A bit of an avalanche, rocks falling. so Odo turns into this protective dome so he hasn't lost his skills he turns into a dome protects her and I have no problems with that

my quibble is somewhere else all of that makes perfect sense and good for Odo for doing that it's a bottle show that means they're trying to save money why are you making him a dome? It costs a lot of money to do and usually we don't have any morphing scene

in an episode after about the first season, they're much less morphing scenes because they're expensive. They're really expensive. We have two in this episode. As a producer, wouldn't somebody have said, can we lose one of the morph scenes?

Yeah. Yeah, they are, I can imagine back then they were very expensive. Oh, they were hugely expensive. That's why, I mean, they were expecting in the beginning Oda was supposed to morph all the time and then they went no it's too expensive we can't do that right right and here they are in a bottle show morphing twice

twice in a bottle show that's antithetical in my opinion you're right I think there's a exchange about platitudes at the end of this that I thought was really funny he talks about like you know we've been in tougher situations than this and she says right now three he's like oh that's not the response I expected for the detective notables that O'Brien gives me to read when the hero says, we've been in tougher situations of this one, the friend always agrees. Yeah, he's using these quotes and these platitudes

and she says, well, I don't have much use for platitudes, Odo. I'd rather face the situation and go on from there. Yeah. Yeah, I just thought that was nice. And may I give kudos to the writers? Every time Odo poses a question that would require

Kira to remember something from the past she avoids it yeah she avoids it yeah she avoids it yeah you're right and knowing what the ending is uh quite brilliant of the writers yes never to have her answer something that might lead to a question about something that they did to get correct or that he would know that she had done right yeah yeah yeah yeah quite brilliant yeah when i saw it the second time and went oh they're very smart about that

that yeah yeah yeah the little details yeah you don't notice them at the moment but looking backwards like you say you watch it a second time and that that's when you really notice those things yeah um we go to the replomat next cisco is very impressed with nogg's work um dax and and cisco are talking dac says nog even found some things that they had missed before so he went above and beyond he did better than the starflea people had done themselves better than starfleet team that was probably assignment like that. This is a single human, sorry, this is a single individual that has found things that were not cataloged from before. No, he's done a great job. But Cisco seems very focused on why. Why is this happening? He just doesn't understand. Right. From what he

knows of Nog so far. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the, in the moon chamber, in the moon pie chamber, Here his head and fingers are just sticking out. I did like how her hands sort of came out of the rock. I couldn't tell how they did that, but it did look like she was really encased in that set piece. I thought that was pretty cool. Oda's trying to find the frequency to crack this thing. He cannot find it.

He's cycling through all the frequencies. And he tells Kira the story of how he got his name in this scene. Oh, this is great. Yeah. Oh, my God. Basically, they had to name all of these, you know, experiments they had in the lab. They had to give them some kind of name for the records. And turns out they used a Cardassian word that means nothing.

What is the word again? Odo Ital. Odo Ital, yeah. Odo Ital, yeah, it means nothing. And then as a joke, they separated the names, the word Odo Atal to a surname and a proper name, right? So Odo and then Ital was like the last name, I guess. So to be funny. But he does say in this scene that it stood for nothing or, you know, unknown sample originally and then basically nothing.

But he said he feels like something now because of the friendships and the relationships he's made in DS9. He doesn't feel like that. Including one with quark, which I appreciated. Yeah. Yeah. He did put that in there. Yeah. Kare is in bad shape in the scene and she decides to order him.

this where she pulls rank. As your superior officer, I'm telling you to take that runabout and get the hell off this moon. Yeah. That's an order. Yeah. That sounds more like Kira. You know what I'm saying? That little part right there. She started to have a bit of a backbone and saying, nope, I'm ordering you. Get out of here, Odo. I like that. All of that is good. Absolutely. So if he had followed the order, what about the being that's encased in the next chamber? I don't know. I don't know what the plan was that. And I want to get back to that a little later. Yeah. Let's just hold that thought and keep going. But we come back

from a commercial break after she's ordered Kira's ordered Dodo to leave. Kira's begging him to leave. He refuses. And basically out of this this argument they're having, this heated debate, this discussion. Tense situation. Yes. He admits finally that he's in love with her. And then she admits the same thing.

Oh, love with you, too. Wow. Right after Bariahe. Right after Bariah. Yeah, it did seem, yeah, I forgot about that, but you're right. It seems strange already to me and then remembering that Beryl had just died. Yeah. Captain Quibble, your table is ready.

Captain Quibble, your table is now ready. Thank you. All right. well we think maybe this is a good thing they both admit they love each other for your fans of the show at this point maybe that's a great thing um we go to the commander's office this is where cisco tells nog that he's not going to write him a letter not going to do it nog is begging he says it's not a scheme it's not a whim right um Cisco demands that he tell him why he wants it i have a quibble about cisco grabbing nog and shaking him i didn't like that i didn't like that I didn't like it because I don't think a superior officer needs to do that.

The power dynamic, it just, that, that seemed like a line physically to grab nog and shake him like that. All right. Aaron Eisenberg was interviewed about that particular scene. He said that when they were in rehearsal and every time they ran their lines, there was no blocking of the grab. But when the cameras were rolling, Avery, made that choice to grab him and that actually helped Aaron's performance. Aaron said like that grab, it kind of startled me because we didn't practice that. We didn't rehearse that. So that grab was so startling and he was so, you know, insisted on getting

that answer from me. Like, why are you joining? And that literally, in his estimation, had the best acting that he did in Al-A-S-9. So he loved that scene. It's a great scene. I just wish the editors had cut around and removed the grabbing. I think from an objective standpoint, it seems excessive. It seems borderline inappropriate with a child, with a young person to grab them and shake them that way. Well, he's not a child anymore. He's an adult, remember.

His son's friend. Like, I wouldn't grab my children's friends and shake them. I don't know. You know, the role following, the Starfleet kind of guy that he, plays in so many other scenes. He seems to abandon that sometimes with Franke. It threw me a bit. I didn't like it.

Well, let me, can I just read it directly instead of paraphrasing what I told you before? It says, there was a scene that we had rehearsed, but as soon as we shot it, he unexpectedly grabbed my shoulders and said, tell me, Nag, what is it? And it was awesome. These are Aaron's words. It was awesome because it forced me to come up to that level. I didn't back down. I blurt it out.

because I don't want to be like my father. He is so professional. Every, it's so professional. That was my favorite scene. It finally gave me as an actor something to really think about and deal with. It was emotional and we really got to see the heart of Nog. And also as an actor, I really had to come from a place and not just be on the surface. I was very well prepared when I did it.

I didn't have any problems with the lines and I was very proud of myself. So I just feel like, you know, I don't think Aaron had any issues with it. With all due respect to Aaron's words. and they're here his experience yeah and i totally respect it but having been a producer director for a long time now 20 years yeah watching actors uh i have seen sometimes actors will get a real satisfaction out of feeling something that's real oh god that felt good to me right but it's not the story and it's not the character okay and to me and to me I don't need an actor, the human actor, to actually feel anything.

If they're performing a pretend story that's in line with the story we're trying to tell. Sure, if they feel something, if they feel satisfaction from having, you know, suffered in that moment in some way that feels authentic. But they don't have to feel anything, honestly. Like, so often, you know, I've often sent actors like, this isn't therapy. This isn't like, we're telling a story. And so we need to find the emotional journey that your character is experiencing. And then the action that your character is doing. That's what I want to see.

So for Aaron, if he got there and had a great experience, great. But to me, he didn't need to feel it to reach that level. He certainly didn't need another actor to force him to feel it. That's where I struggle. And it felt like that to me. It felt a bit like self-indulgent, I guess. Okay. And tangential to all this and all of what you both said is incredibly powerful and true,

how did the cameraman feel when all of a sudden his shot changed while they were in the midst of shooting? True. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I think there's a sweet spot where we can go through the mechanics as actors, as camera people, as whatever, you go through the mechanics. have all been pre-planned, and yet stay open to some spontaneity.

Yeah. But within the safety of the agreement that we're pretending, this is all pretend. Yeah. We're playing pretend right now. You know, when you lose the safety factor of someone, another actor physically, if you're doing a stunt, there's choreography. You've got to do your part and they have to do their part. Otherwise, someone gets hurt.

And that's to me, you know, a bit of a blurred line in that moment to me when I hear your story. I didn't even know that. I thought they had chosen to do the shaking. So knowing that it was not planned in my mind makes it even worse in a way. I like it less, if that makes sense. Yeah. And again, to play the devil's advocate to what Armin was saying about the cinematographer, the director of photography, the camera operator. Focus puller. The focus puller. Exactly. I also feel that I think Avery probably knew, okay, this is not a single. It's a two shot. We're both going to be in it. You know, if I reach forward a little bit, it's not going to change too much. You know, I feel that's a little bit. Good answer. Good answer. I'm going to go with that. But I do find this so interesting because when he says that it's, he doesn't want to be like his father. He goes into detail. He talks about how his father, Rahm, has been chasing profit his whole life. But what has it gotten him? Nothing. Because he doesn't have the lobes to always chase profit like cork does. And neither do I. That's just not our makeup. And a pharynge without profit, as Cisco says, and Nagra answers is no pharynge at all. And so now,

Now, to me, what's interesting is you have this parallel of this story about not of being nothing as a Ferengi and Odo, his name being nothing as well. You know, there's this kind of weird parallel, but I don't even know if the writers even knew that this happened in this episode, but it's there. For me, I thought, wow, that's really, that's deep. It's insightful, you know, I mean, Nag feeling like he's not worthy or not a Ferengi without having the prophet and, you know, making that decision that he doesn't want to chase. profit. He wants to go for Starfleet Academy. He wants to go for a member Starfleet. Because he looks at his dad and he says, you know, it mentions his dad is a mechanical genius. Yes. It could have been a head engineer if he had chosen to

follow his own path and his own strengths. But instead, he kept doing the same thing that everybody does. Right. You know, walking the same path that his father and his father before him and everybody else. So he went into business. He doesn't want to end up like that. Yeah. And in that part, that exact little bit of dialogue, that monologue there, then it became very introspective for me because to be a good Asian, you go into medicine.

You know what I'm saying? You become a doctor. And I kind of felt like, oh, my gosh, I'm sort of the nog in real life because I went into the arts, which is frowned upon in Asian culture to become an actor, which is. frowned upon in Ferengi culture to go into Starfleet or even think of becoming part of Starfleet, as we shall see later in Fork's reaction to the decision. I think that theme, and, you know, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but like the theme of this episode and the themes of this episode are really interesting,

and I think they're best played out in this Nog story. It does feel like that story. Even though I think the other story, the Kira-Oto story, wanted to play out some of those themes in a great way. It didn't quite play it out as well as this Nog story. No, yeah. So this arguably is the A storyline for all of us. I think it is, yeah.

I don't disagree with Armin on this. I like the story. To add on to what you said, and you'll get more of this when you ask me about the themes of the show, I think the fact that when cultures intermingle is the opportunity for one culture to influence the other. And I think what's happened, Why does he want to be in Starfleet?

I mean, as many paths he could take besides Starfleet because he has been living with Starfleet people and influenced by their ideas, by their goals, by their achievements. It's because he's living in a foreign culture. Just if I may, Garrett, just as you were not living in Korea, you're living in the United States, where the opportunity to be a performer isn't necessarily frowned upon. and therefore is open to you because you're living in an alien culture.

That's a valid point. That's a very valid point. So after Nog explains himself, this is when Cisco now understands the full picture. And he agrees to send that letter of commendation, at which point Nog is so excited. He goes to hug Cisco. And, Robbie, I want to ask you, can you please look at the script? Is that in there where Nog reaches in for a hug? of Cisco at the end? Because I feel like that may not be.

It may not be because Aaron was a hugger. Yes. He liked to hug people. That looked like an Aaron Eisenberg move. And I wanted to see if that indeed was Aaron's impetus. Tid for tat, if that wasn't in, that's the response to being clutched. No, it's not in there. It says Nog is overwhelmed after Cisco says they'll send the letter.

If they talk a little more, Cisco smiles, not entirely sure if Nog is right, but willing to take that chance. That's how the scene ends. Yeah, well, so I think what, if I may, and again, I'm putting words into people's mouths, but if you've already broken the structure by grasping by, you know, then the other actor feels, okay, then I have the liberty to do something as well.

To add my hug. Yeah, add my hug. If you're going to grab me by my shoulders, I'm going to give you a bare hug is what I'm going to do. Yes, I like that. Great. back down to the moon chamber. Yes. This thing is up to her chin now.

This crystal, she's almost covered. Odo's looking at these phaser marks on the wall. He's back to that. Still studying them. And basically Odo realizes Kira has been lying to him this whole time. That he says he knows

her far too well. He points a phaser at her. And then she ultimately turns into a changeling, into a founder. The founder explains that she wanted to make Odo think that Kira had died and that maybe he would return to his people. And Odo says that near the end of the scene, never, that's never going to happen. He wants to know where Kira is.

And she tells him and then the founder tells him and then he transper the founder transports out of there. Does she transport out? Is that what happens? And where does she go? Yeah. Where does she go? There's no other ship there.

You know what? Maybe the moon was her ship. Maybe the entire moon was. the ship morphed into a moon and then who knows you know who knows who knows who knows yeah i don't know i've went where are you going yeah where are you going where are you where are you going back to the gamma quadrant okay yeah otto odo uses his detective detectiveing skills here and figures this out it feels a bit like a classic odo solving the crime scene you know i've been trying to figure what's going on something about this didn't say

seem right, too many coincidences. So that was an interesting word for me, coincidences. Coincidence means when two things happen at the same time that aren't necessarily related. That's a coincidence for me. When did that happen in the episode? When two things happened at the same time that aren't related, something can be wrong, something can be off kilter, but they're not coincidences. That's a strange word for the writers to use. Yeah, it is. It is a strange word. he's really the key to this is these marks on the wall yeah because he asked how tall was he was he my height no care says no shorter like this more or less and oda says well if if this was his position and he was shorter then you're blocking those phaser hits there's no way that those so he

figures out that that's a lie yeah yeah and then forgive me if i've missed it but um and then Odo does something he never does, ever, ever does, and complains about it, is adamant against his philosophy. He lifts a gun. He hates guns. He never uses one. Even when he's in trouble, he never has a phaser in. That's right. This is the first time he's holding a gun. Am I right? Yeah. It's ever the first time he's ever held a gun. I suppose he's so moved by the fact that he's been homswoggled, that he's forgotten his own philosophy. But it is, it is worth to point out, you never picks up a gun, and yet here he has. Perhaps it's right.

Perhaps it is, but it is a first. And he's picking up a gun and pointing it at the love of his life, who he's not certain that she's not the love of his life at this point. He's willing to roll the dice in that. Here, there might have been a mention of bariol, you know. you just lost barryl and you're telling me you love me exactly uh that yeah it just yeah that could have been in there yeah i also didn't like the founder saying what what she said at the end she said she is never going to love you how could she you're a changeling it's almost like

well are you saying changlings suck or changelings are the worst people to ever be i mean i don't know It just, it bummed me out. If I may, Garrett, I think that goes back again to what I just mentioned before about cultures. Culture's not mixing. And that cultures, when they do mix, things do happen. But what she's insisting is culture shouldn't mix and how can one culture,

someone from one culture love someone from another culture. And again, I think there are cultural differences. Just as humans in the B story are suggesting that a Ferengi and Starfleet, Well, that's kind of racist or specious, however you want to call it, right? Specious. Specious. How dare you be a specious?

Okay. Well, we cut to a side chamber. Odo runs in, finds Kira in a stasis kind of box or something. The moonquakes are getting bad. He opens it up. And she pops out. She pops out. What am I doing here, she says.

There needs to be a moment of acclamation to going from complete stasis to be. you know, awake, right? Awake and conscious and aware. It's almost like she was behind a curtain, right? She was like, hey, I'm here. It's like, what? Well, they run out. We cut back to the station.

We're in an airlock. Odo and Kira walk out. And Oda's explaining that he figured all this out because she said something to him. It gave it all the way. It's something that Kira would never say. And Kira asked, well, what was it? He goes, oh, a slip of the tongue, nothing important. Sad.

It's just sad. Oh, no. Sorry. Tell her. Tell her. Or what you said. Exactly. I don't know.

Because he doesn't tell her, the arc of either character is not advanced. No. One of the things that it's so wonderful about our series is that we never, for the most part, we build upon what was said in the last episode or the last couple of episodes, and we build upon it. And it's an erector set, and we're gradually building a structure. So what really bothers me about the B story here is that it doesn't progress anything.

I've watched this B story, and I'm no further along in the understanding of these characters or of this program or what their situation is, not one iota, because it's all erased. Right. When he says just a slip of the tongue. Yeah. I wonder, has he ever said out loud that he loves Kira?

No, but other people have said it. Luana Troy, Launa, Laxana Troi. He made a big speech and said, you know. That's true. And we have seen him look at, I mean, the scene when there's the Bajorn Festival and he wants to be near her. We know what's in his mind and in his heart. So it's not a surprise that he's finally spoken. It's hard for him to say it, absolutely.

and goodos to my friend Renee for that performance, but it's not surprised to the viewer. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, nothing moves forward. Nothing moved forward. Well, let's get to the story where something does move forward. We're in Quarks.

Quark is arguing absolutely not. No, you are not going to start Fleet Academy. And Quark says, his mind is made up. He absolutely forbids it. And Rom wants to, Ron stands up for... He stands up for him. Yeah, he says as far as the bar goes, you can be in charge.

but when it comes to my son I make the decisions Quirk says fine then you tell him he can't go so Quark is expecting Rom's gonna say the same thing and instead Rom's gonna say the same thing he'd be proud to have a son at Starfleet

and big smile big big smile I love I love yeah I just I love this is a really big scene because we never see we never see Rom with a backbone

We don't. Not when it's dealing with quark. I'm sorry. Quark is the end-all be-all for every single episode up until this point. And so in this scene, it's just like, I think the audience is left. Yeah, all of our chins are on the floor like, what? He stood up to quark finally. It's just, oh, my God.

So it's a big scene. And Armin, I would argue they end the episode with this scene. And usually you end an episode with the A story. You don't end it with the B story. So I think you may be right I don't know if it was written In fact, let me go back to the script I don't know if it was written

As the last scene or if Yeah, I guess it was I love Cork's last line Which it's perfect You're both insane Like it's like It's the economy of the lines here It's just I just love it

And it is the first step For both of them In changing their lives And so unlike what I just said about the B story, this does make a difference. This does. This episode does make a difference for those characters. Yeah. They're moving forward. There's something that is happening now in their lives. Yeah. Good job. Great. Now knowing everything about the episode, I want to repeat the 12th night quote. Okay. I have said much unto a heart of stone and laid mine honor too on Cherry out.

there's something in me that reproves my fault but such a headstrong potent fault it is that it but mocks reproof so he admitted his Odo admits his love even though it hurts but it's so potent

it's so headstrong that he can't help himself and it mocks anyone saying you shouldn't have said that I think if they were relating the title of the episode to that quote, I think that's what happens in what we call the B story. Great. Right. It came to me late in the viewing of this episode, but my moral I wrote down is my theme,

my lesson. You can choose a different path than those that came before you. We all can. Yes. Agreed. Yeah. Both A and B story, that was true. Odo was choosing a different path than his people, and so was Nog. Yeah. Okay. Harmon. So I've sort of already indicated, I have two, but I've sort of indicated the first one, but I'll repeat it.

Beings from different cultures can forswear their racial prejudices, and by the influence of living in alien cultures, learn to be affected by another culture's influence. So that's sort of what I said before. There is another one that also came to me, which is for both stories. Learned, learn to trust your heart and make bold moves. I like that one. That applies to both stories, and I like that a lot. Yeah. Great.

Yeah, mine is, don't be afraid to choose the road less traveled. Great. So we're all in the same boat. yeah yeah all right well the patreon poll or the theme slash lesson slash moral of this episode as submitted by rob is you are more than where you come from very true i like that too thank you everyone for tuning in to our recap and discussion of art of stone please uh join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode destiny with terry so thank you again to Armand for joining us for this one.

My pleasure. Yes, and everyone else, Patreon, patrons, please stay tuned. You know, So, Thank you.