The Delta Flyers - Initiations

Episode Date: August 24, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Initiations. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.Initiations:Chakotay's shuttlecraft drifts into enemy territory and becomes the target of a young Kazon attempting to earn his warrior name.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Stephanie Baker, Philipp Havrilla, Kelton Rochelle, Stephen Smith, Eve Mercer, Sarah A Gubbins, Ann Marie Segal, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Jason Self, Daniel Adam, Chris Knapp, Michelle Zamanian, Matthew Gravens, Brian Barrow, Mary Jac Greer, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, John Tufarella, and Shannyn Bourke.And our Producers  Chris Tribuzio, Jim Guckin, Peter Patch, Steph Dawe Holland, James Amey, Katherine Hedrick, Liz Scott, Deborah Schander, Eleanor Lamb, Thomas Melfi, Breana Harris, Richard Banaski, Eve England, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Ann Harding, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Laura Swanson, Máia W, Charity Ponton, Josh Johnson, Chloe E, Kathleen Baxter, Katie Johnson, Craig Sweaton, Maggie Moore, Ryan Hammond, Nathanial Moon, Warren Stine, York Lee, Mike Schaible, Kelley Smelser, Dave Grad, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Katherine Puterbaugh, Claire Deans, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Matthew Cutler, Crystal Komenda, Barbara Beck, Mary O'Neal, Aithne Loeblich, Col Ord, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Heidi Mclellan, Rich Gross, Dat Cao, Cody Crockett, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Oliver Campbell, Selina Zhong, Anna Post, Evette Rowley, Robert Hess, Cindy Ring, Nathan Butler, Terry Lee Hammons, and Andrei Dunca. Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey, everybody, welcome to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order. Your two hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Garrett Wong, aka Ensen Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who portrayed Lieutenant Tom Paris. If you're interested in either an extended version of this podcast or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which included added, fun bonus segments. Check out our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patriot.

Robbie, hello, sir. That was like you were singing the intro this time. I sang the intro. Yes, you did. But we got to get right to the exciting part. Let's get the exciting part. We got a special guest. The commander.

The commander. The commander. Hey, the commander. There he is. The commander. Welcome, Robert. Beltran. Robert Bertrand.

Thank you, Casey Kaysam. America's Top 40 with Casey Kaysam. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys for inviting me. It's a special occasion. That this episode is very special. Yes. And before we get into anything, any other discussion,

I just want to say that the three of us would like to dedicate this specific podcast episode. episode to Mr. Aaron Eisenberg, who unfortunately passed away last year in 2019, and we were all very good friends with him and really admired his talent and his generosity and his love of life and his spirit, which was absolutely contagious, his enthusiasm for life and for acting. So we want to thank him for all the contributions that he's made towards Star Trek. Yeah, Robert's here because this episode was Aaron's, you know, guest star performance on Voyager. And he did such a phenomenal job.

And Robert and Aaron together created such a great episode that it's a real honor to have Robert here to kind of share his memories of Aaron. It was a lot of fun working with him because, as everyone knows, that knows him. He was infectious. His positivity, his love of life was just infectious. And, you know, as far as our relationship of these two characters, if this was a comedy, I would have been the straight man feeding him the lions right because he was like

it was just a very nice ease that we had with each other right off and I think it really helped this episode a lot I can't wait to hear your thoughts as you rewatch it with us and we also want to hear your thoughts about what you're working on I know you've got a short film and we really want to hear about that too I just saw it today

and just watched it. It's called Butterflies, and it is on Amazon. You can rent it, you can buy it. Just for a few ducats. It's not that expensive. A couple of ducats, but it's a beautiful little short film, which I love the art form of short films. I want to hear about how you got involved and your experience on it.

You did yours. Yeah. It was great. Thank you. Yeah, I did a couple. I did two short films during Star Trek Voyager. The first one was called The Battery, and it was about these brothers playing baseball and kind of coming of age and their dysfunctional family. And then I did one called 9mm of Love about Cupid as a hitman, kind of a funny action comedy.

But I love the short film format. Yeah, tell us about it. I met the writer-director Ken Brisboy's, interestingly enough at a playground for my daughter. I took her to play at the playground. We were in the sandbox, and then all of a sudden she goes, Lane, and there was this girl from her school. She ran over, and they started playing, and then Ken came over as, you know, so I met him as Lane's father.

Right. And we were talking, and very, very nice guy. I don't know if he mentioned then or not, but later in our subsequent meetings, we talked about films, and I found out that he was in Northwestern. Western graduate. Great school, great program. Jerry's old alma mater.

That's right, Jerry Ryan. And that he, you know, had some projects. And he already directed a project and was getting ready to do more. He was flying out to Texas quite a bit. So anyway, he, over the course of our growing relationship and our family's becoming friends, he sent me the script of butterflies and I read it

and wow I loved it yeah I loved it and so we we planned to make it just as as a plan right

but it finally came to fruition he got the money and we shot it in Austin Texas I saw that in the credits that had been shot down there yeah and we found this wonderful actress Palmer and you know we had we had like two or three rehearsals yeah no I think

maybe maybe four or five but only two with Ken because he was he had to go back and forth to Texas so Palmer and I would get together and rehearse and then we shot it one one night wow and yeah in Texas in Austin a really good crew it's a great place to shoot I hear it's a great town It's a great it's a very creative town Lots of you know known for its music scene But just generally a super creative town Robert Rodriguez's studios down there

Yeah yeah So you know we shot it all in one night And went into post production and all that stuff And then he got it into Amazon I think it's going to it's going to go to a few film festivals Coming up so yeah I mean, sorry,

what was the set actually? Was that a hotel room or somebody's house and turned into a... It was a B&B apartment. Uh-huh. Gotcha. That they converted.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was beautifully, I'll say it was beautifully shot very stylish and, you know, really cinematic lighting. And I thought he,

he really did a great job as a director of sort of conveying all of this complexity, all this, you know, just in the behavior, the shots of the hands and the tension. And I thought it was really, all the detail that was in there. It didn't feel like you were stuck in a room for a long time.

It was great blocking and movement. And most of all, I thought, just really compelling your character and kind of the mystery of what was really going on for him. Yeah, thank you. you know, it's a segment of a larger story. We want to continue doing 10 to 14 minute, 15 minutes segments until the whole story is done. And we're kind of finding it the most convenient way of doing things with, you know, as you raise money.

Yeah. Do another segment. The people that have seen it on Amazon, I've really liked it. It's gotten really very nice, very kind reviews from. a lot of viewers so I think people will be anxious to see the next second yeah well that sounds really exciting that because it was very compelling you know for me watching it to to wonder about your character kind of what the relationship with his wife was what the backstory there was even though some of the those questions are sort of answered at least on an emotional level

in the story you don't get the concrete answers for some of that of like what's really going on. So it would be interesting to see some more, some more segments. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm anxious to delve into it myself because I found the character to be really complex and fun to delve into. Well, it's great to see you back in front of the camera working, seeing something current that you're doing. And I would just recommend to everybody out there that's a Voyager fan or even if you're not a Voyager fan, a very different character, very different kind of performance from Robert, but very compelling for sure, very suspenseful. I'd just like to add out there, if you're searching for this,

if you're on Amazon, you type in butterflies, it pops up some old series back in 2007. So you need to type in butterflies short film, I think. Is that right? That's what I did, yeah. Yeah, butterfly short, plural, short film in the search bar and you will, it'll pop up the image. I think the thumbnail images of Robert Beltron. You just see, you see, you see Chacote. It's available right now in the UK and the United States. It'll be coming to Germany very soon and various other countries, you know, soon. That's great.

It's also exciting to hear kind of, you know, how you and. and your friend, your filmmaker friend, we're able to sort of create some content on your own. You know, it's exciting. And it reminds me, I've said this before, maybe on our podcast, but I've said it at conventions. I've always had this idea of doing a similar kind of segmented story

with our cast from Voyager doing a Captain Proton only miniseries. Like serialized little, you know, eight or ten minute chunks that add up to, you know, do a dozen of them, and we've got an hour and a half movie, but you only can see it in little eight or ten, and we shoot it black and white, and it's only in the holodeck, Captain Proto. It could be a fun, and do it with the same sort of tongue-and-cheek kind of fun that that holodeck program had. I think that's a great idea.

I've always wanted to do that. I would love to, you know, I love seeing what you're doing. that's exciting to see a similar approach on that project you're doing. So maybe we'll get something going someday. Rob, speaking of the Captain Proton storyline, I don't think Chocote showed up in that. Am I right? Like there's some characters that never, yes, you did?

I did once. Oh, you did? Okay. Maybe even twice. All right. But briefly, briefly. Okay. Well, no, there was one.

What's the episode where I take Kate back in time and show her how we got to? where we were. Oh, God, Robert. You know, that's why we're doing this podcast, so I can remember. Because I don't remember anything. I think it was shattered.

This episode called Shattered. Okay. Where the timeline got all mixed up. And it was one timeline on deck 11 and a different timeline on deck 9 and blah, blah, blah. So I had to take her around. And we ended up on the holodeck in that holodeck program. the Captain Proton. And so I was in that one.

I think there was one more where I might have shown up. I feel like I remember an image of you in a costume for Captain Proton. I can picture you, but I just don't remember this. No, no, I was just in, I was just... You were in Starfleet?

Yes, Starfleet. That's what I'm saying, Robbie. In terms of people dressed up in character for Captain Proton, it was just Bob Picardo. Jerry Ryan was briefly in there because she was, you know, trying to tinker with something and then she laughed you know um and then i remember uh kate clearly is as arachnia queen of the spider people but i don't think jacote really had chocote wasn't in in

wardrobe for that tuvok was not balana was not so we're great we're going to create some new characters for our for our serialized version and we're going to have fun with it i just want to talk about butterflies for a second i mean at the end it almost that ending shot it almost felt like that entire that entire scene was almost like a dream sequence to me. It was almost like, wait a minute, did that even happen? I mean, what's happening right now? So there are questions that are left that are not answered

that I would be interested in knowing if they do film subsequent episodes of it. Yeah, it's deliberately ambiguous and of course. Voking in that way, you know, so. Yeah. When the actress punches you, was she punching you in the gut or the groin? I'm just curious. Where is the, I, was

she does that little push and they shoved you away. She gave me a good one too, man. Yeah, was it your mid-second? We hadn't rehearsed quite that, you know... Enthensiastically. I had to hold it in. I was like, cut, cut, cut, cut. What part of you got hit when we were targeted?

Just below the belly button. So I was like, pooh. Oh, that's a good area. Oh, yeah. Sensitive. Right just below the belly button and right above your manhood. that's where they, that's where she gave you the touch.

There's action, there's feelings, there's tears and laughs, everything you could ever want in butterflies. You can't put laughter in that too? I don't know if laughter is, I don't know if laughter's in that. There's not a lot of jokes. It's definitely very dramatic, I would tell you. Well, you know, that was a deliberate thing that I wanted to do was not laugh because he's just at the end of this world, right?

There's nothing funny, there's no humor. he sees nothing except this angst, this terrible angst that he's in. And there is one kind of bitter, bitter, bitter, grimmest smile that he makes, but it's not really a smile. I didn't feel like it was right to have a, like, a genuine smile. Right. I hear you. Okay.

Very cool. Well, great. Well, I enjoyed it. I would highly recommend everybody. Thanks, you guys. Butterflies on Amazon. check it out. It's very interesting and I look forward to more. That's exciting to hear. Thank you. All right. So this week's episode. Yes. This week's episode is initiations. So for all of you

who are listening to the podcast, please stay tuned while Robert and Robbie, the two Roberts and I, will go and watch initiations. And we're going to come back and have our discussion and hear about Robert's memories of filming this particular episode. For the rest of you who are our wonderful Patreon patrons, stay tuned for your bonus segment, which is, what do we remember? Which will include also Robert Beltran's thoughts about what he remembers from this particular. Can't wait for this. All right. Thanks a lot, guys. Hold on. We'll be right back. All right, guys, we are back from watching initiation. How was it, everybody?

It was great. It was great episode, Robert. It really was, like you described your memories, you know, with you and Aaron, really two-character play there the whole time. It was really wonderful. Great performances. And Aaron Eisenberg passed away last fall, last... September of 2019. Yeah, and very young.

and still, I had seen him not long before he passed away and was just shocked at that news. And so I'm really glad you could be here, Robert, to share some of your memories working with Aaron and just express how much we all, as a Star Trek family, really miss him. Yeah, yeah. He was always a great spirit, you know, when you were around him.

He was always positive, funny. just a fun person to be around. And that's the way he was on the set. How old do you think he was on that episode? Was he? I'd say early 20s, probably. He's exactly one month younger than me. So I was born in 68, December of 68.

Aaron Eisenberg was, I think, in January of 69, so very close in age. Well, what impressed me about his performance was that he was able to bring off that 13-year-old Kazan warrior, right? Mm-hmm. He pulled it off beautifully. He has the same kind of energy that Mickey Rooney has, you know? Yeah. Mickey Rooney's such a dynamic performer. And Aaron brought that kind of energy to that role.

Yeah. it was it was very well conceived and very well um performed i think it showed what he was capable of doing he had a he had a wide range available to him i think yeah i agree i agree yeah it's interesting because of the you know the the debilitating disease that he was born with it really it stunted his growth um after and and it's it's interesting the people that have that disease once they get a transplant of the organ that they need. Some of them grow to full size, full adult size, and some don't. So he was relegated to playing younger roles, even though he, you know, even into his 30s and 40, he would still play younger roles. But then, you know, when Father Time catches

up with the wrinkles of your face, then you can't play a wrinkly, you know, 12-year-old anymore. So that was, that became kind of the, the end of his, really his acting career once he hit his 40s, I think, You know, it was very difficult for him to find anything work-wise. But just to give a shout-out to Aaron. Aaron and I, you know, I approached Aaron to do Alpha Quadrant, which Robert and both of you, both Robbie and Robert appeared on Alpha Quadron. We interviewed you guys. And that was the initial video podcast, which was started by Evil Dick Donato and myself.

And we worked on that for about a year. Then we just, some politics got involved. It ended up breaking up. And then Aaron went on to do the seventh rule with Sirak Lofton. He grabbed him as his co-host. And I did nothing for a while until the pandemic hit to this year. And that's when I decided that I wanted to continue with my original idea, which was a Voyager recap.

But when Aaron and I were co-hosting Alpha Quadrant, there was definitely a really good camaraderie between the two of us. Our energy really was in sync. And we kind of played off each other really well. So it is definitely a tragedy that we lost, Mr. Aaron Eisenberg. He was such a wonderful ambassador to Star Trek. Every convention he's at, I mean, he really gave the time and his effort. And he was really, he had a lot of love and concern for all the fans.

And he took his time. Like if you went up to his table to get an autograph, it was never the, okay, here's later. Next, it was never that with him. It was always, you know, I'm going to take the time. I'm going to focus in on you. you're the only person that matters right now each person so in that regard he's very much like george decay and and also similar to how i deal with fans and and i think also with you guys too you guys take the time to really talk to Aaron had a real special way of just um connecting with

everybody yeah you know it didn't matter if they were celebrities or famous or you know wealthy or poor or you know it didn't matter uh who you were he he just had a way uh He had an enthusiasm and a, in a way it was like a, he had gratitude. He was very grateful for the life he had. And maybe that's because he faced mortality at such a young age. Maybe he was just grateful to still be alive. And so there was a sense of like, yeah, he just a great life. You could feel it in his performance.

I could see how much he loved acting in that episode we watched. He just loved having an opportunity to be an actor. You know, you could feel it in the performance. You could feel it, so. Yeah, and I mean, you're right about that gratitude that he had. That was the undercurrent of everything that he did, really. He had that gratitude because he was always beating the odds. The odds were always stacked against him,

whether it was dealing with his help or, you know, getting to the level that he got to as an actor. It's already difficult enough to find success as an actor. when you don't have any physical disabilities, right? And then when you're dealing with what he dealt with, oh my gosh, you know, it's 10 times, a hundred times, a thousand times more difficult. And he really conquered that.

So that's, that gratitude is, is so obvious and refreshing. There's a, there's an interview with him that I saw. They were talking to all of the Deep Space Nine actors. And when it was his interview, he was talking, he said exactly that. he said, I felt so grateful every time I came on the set. Yeah. He said, I'm actually doing what I had always dreamed about doing.

Yeah. And that he felt so grateful that his dreams came true. Thanks for coming in and sharing about Aaron. You know, we really wanted you to be a part of this episode in tribute to Aaron. Yeah, yeah. This episode is about Chakote and a young case. on boy, realizing that they have a lot in common in terms of how they are connected and initiated in their own cultures. I'm going to leave it at that. I like that. It's a short but sweet,

you know, it's not a poem. It's not a, it's not a poem like you do sometimes. You sometimes haiku, you do a little haiku synopsis, which is always entertaining. So Chukote starts with the narration or the voiceover log at the top, which I think is the first time in our series that it's not a Janeway captain's log. I don't recall any other episode yet having anyone else start the log under the opening scene. There are though. There will be. There will be, but I think this is the first time. Yeah, this is the first time it's not Janeway. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that was kind of a, that jumped out to me, the very first narration, the voiceover there. That jumped out to me too, but what jumped out to me was

what exactly is that star date? Five, five, seven, six, seven, seven, seven point four. Who knows? It's all made. Yeah, you know, I never got that, but maybe speaking of made up, Acucci Moia is made up, right? That's not a, a Cucci Moia is like

a German, Germanic or something. It's not even, it's not even native language, but. I never asked Jerry Taylor about that. I think, I think she might have found something that was there. Yeah, maybe there was something. I googled and tried to do some research right after we watched,

Kuchy Moi, to find it like where it came from. And all I could find was Germanic-based. I mean, even in the Star Trek blogs, people are like, we can't figure it out. There are parts of it that might be other native languages combined together. That was one interpretation. Is it sort of like a coup is something? Ku is one tribe and chi means this and moya means that so yeah maybe it was a combo platter

but I thought it was interesting I also googled Chakote's medicine bundle that he opens up it has a blackbirds wing in it it has a chamuzzi or shamuzzi stone which is a river stone and it has an Akuna which is a modern device used used instead of psychotropic herbs to facilitate the vision quest and maintain the meditative state. So I thought it was an old tricorder or something when you opened up the medicine bundle, but it was something called, that's why I googled it. I was like, what is that thing? It's an akuna, which you put it up to your mouth, and you go,

and you go, and you go, you're tripping, baby. We talked about this in his interview. We talked a little bit about this. The akuna? Oh, yeah, we did. That's right. Yeah, we joked about it like I said, like, I was like, Beltran, why are you holding out on us?

Why have you given us a toke of this? You know, except we were joking about the acuna. Yeah, the cune simulates a net, the high. Well, that's funny because I assumed it was, I assumed it was a tricorder. That's what it looked like, an old tricorters. But it was, the acuna was a modern technological device used instead of psychotropic herbs. So I thought that was interesting. I was just curious what, you know, if I could find out what was in that bundle.

By the way, you have the bundle. Your shuttle gets destroyed and then you have it again at the end. So how did you get that back? I went like, because you had the medicine, like, unless you stuck it in your pants. You don't know that? Chikote always kept that bundle up his ass the entire time. He just pulls it out whenever he needs it. Come on.

Come on, Tom. Well, you know what I thought. also not a smart thing to put the shuttle on autopilot while you do a do a ritual yeah you know because somebody has to drive that thing yeah there's no telling what you're gonna run into or I just thought that was not a smart thing for him to do he is clearly a good pilot because he did the loop-de-loop yeah around and took out Aaron Eisenbergs that's new for a shuttle to do that and that's you know am I right it's it was I've never seen that I don't think we've seen a

move like that yet no no no it was you know what was funny what was funny was that uh you know on the panel they have that circle on the panel and and i actually went like this to do the loop i went and it made the sound oh really sound department made that and then you saw did you did you push it upwards is that what you ended up doing i think i did i think it went a little circle yeah i used to do that down in the front seat i would I would slide things around depending on, you know, what we're supposed to be doing. Well, when I noticed, when I noticed that the sound.

By the way, none of the buttons were anything. It was literally a panel with painted on things from the backside. There was not a button or anything that moved. And also, guys, it usually was not our hands. It was usually second unit. A lot of times. Someone else's hands would be there. And they would bring in, did that happen to you guys too,

where they would bring in three or four back? people that had hands similar to yours and said like, okay, which one looks like your hand and they picked somebody else that had a similar looking set of hands. Yeah, I hated that because I could always tell when it wasn't my hands. I was, that's not my hand. By the way, Robert, I thought your shakes

were very good. You know, Kim Friedman gave us that videotape of next gen actors shaking. DS9. Thank you, Kim Friedman. Yeah. Thank you. You studied it well. When you took the shakes, in the shuttle there, I was like, wow, that's some good shakes.

We'll learn more about the Kazon, right? I mean, these different sex. Different sex. And I think Carr said, Aaron said, at one point, he said, well, our sex change every day. Yesterday we had 18 or something. That's right. That was brand new. And they also brought up in this episode the Trayb for the first time, I think.

We'll meet them later on. find out about the Trabe later on, but this, he talks about the trade for the first time in this episode. Yeah. Also, if you go back to, uh, in Janeway's ready room, Neelix is there. And Neelix and Janeway both talk about Lieutenant Ayala and his separation from his children, his boys. Lieutenant Ayala, as we all know, is our good friend background actor, Mr. Tarek Ergen. I found him on Instagram. So I'm going to message him, Robbie. And I'm going to bring him. We're going to bring his butt on this show. We need to talk to, we need to talk to Tarek. He was there all seven years, you know, sitting standing next to us in the mess hall with us, in the

cargo bay with us. I mean, we talk about his character all the time. He's referred to. He needs to have a little bit of love. You know, we need to show him a little love. I noticed two things with the Nelix and Janeway scene. One is I remembered that Ethan had said to me at some point over the years, he said, you know, I always played Nelix like he had a crush on the captain. really and I noticed that in the scene he was sort of giddy around her he was sort of it was very funny and I don't know why that came to mind but I was like oh I see what he's talking about he said he said I always wanted to play neelix like he just sort of was infatuated just had a crush on her so I saw that and the next thing I saw was when they came out of the

ready room onto the bridge I noticed that as the doors open and Kate came through she was smiling like like as if someone had made a joke and behind her was Ethan coming out with a big smile on his face looking down so he must have just as they called action and the doors open as they come out on the bridge I'm sure Ethan did something

to try to make her laugh because he did that all the time I didn't know that he played that he had a crush on her the entire seven years that that's how he approached that with Janeway because I should, Robbie I should have did that with you I should have just played like I had a crush on Tom Paris the entire time. No, sir, I was not.

My crush was always on Chacote. It was never on Paris. That makes sense. That makes sense. I was impressed with Patrick Kilpatrick's performance. I thought he brought a real, you know, the two cases on that I always remember was the guy that CESCA ended up with, you know, he was some mage. Mage color. Mage color.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought he did a great job. with that role and i thought patrick did a great job with this role well i'm going to add to that robert patrick did such a good job that the other guy this the secondary the b story kazon really came off like a california surfer to me like it just like i didn't yeah he's got all the he's got the prosthetics he's got the wardrobe on but because patrick was so committed to his kazon the other guy seemed trivial you know in comparison it was sort of i'm waiting for him to go egg

I'm going to go catch a wave now. I'm ready to go surfing. He didn't seem like the second in command. You know, it was Khaliz, I think, was his name, you know? So that kind of, that kind of bothered me. Do you guys remember that the makeup guys were always joking about Patrick Kilpatrick because one of, I can't remember if it was Scott from makeup or Mark Shostrom. I can't remember who it was, but they went to the bathroom.

And it happened that Patrick Kilpatrick was also in the bathroom. in one of the stalls. And I guess he was having a little hard time getting stuff come out, but, and then he was making all these, yeah, he was making all these noises. Like, he was sitting there going like, oh, Kazon, like that. And so that became the running joke is that they would

say, Patrick, Kilpatrick, Patrick, Kees-on, and just imitate that they were constipated. And this became, I mean, we would joke about this. Yeah, I don't, yes, we did. We talked about that story quite a bit. No one else was there to witness it. Just the makeup guys.

Even if they made it up, I don't care. It's hilarious. We had a Kazon who was, you know, who was shouting Kazon! As he made his morning. He was doing number two. He was doing number duty. There was that moment where he kisses, gives the kiss of death to Aaron. Yes, yes.

That was not written. He added that. He did that. Oh, wow. yeah that was really kind of like that shocked me I'm like wow was that in the script and no he actually ad lib that's that's amazing a very good friend of mine Steve Caffrey do you know Stephen Caffrey Robert I don't know if you've ever

worked not by name Stephen was Steve was one of the leads of a series called Tour of Duty it was a series on CBS in the 80s late 80s early 90s up it was tour of duty was about the Vietnam War and Steve was one of the leads, my friend. And Patrick Kilpatrick was a regular on that show. So when Patrick was coming on to do our show, Steve called me and said,

oh, my buddy, Patrick's going to come do your show. And he said, yeah, he's an awesome actor. He goes, he's really intense, though. He's a method actor. So I'm not surprised that Patrick, from what Steve, you know, the way Steve described him, I'm not surprised he added a kiss of death or some, you know, something a little extra there.

He sounded, you know, from my friend's description, he sounded like he was always a pretty intense actor. Thanks for adding that info, Rob, because now that makes sense the whole bathroom scene. He was in, he was still method acting. He was in character even while using the bathroom. Yes. Yeah, I would always, when I was in the bathroom, you know,

Tom Paris! No, no, no. This is how you go to the bathroom and you're conspated. You're like, yes ma'am is what you do so okay and that's about the bathroom i just want to say if patrick killpatrick is listening this i'm so sorry if we've embarrassed you i don't want to offend i don't even know if that's a true story but it's a good one for us it's a good one for us to have just like you can tell the story about me saying yes ma'am as i go if you want it's a good story

you can take it you can take it if you want yes ma'am i was just going to say that i think the connection of Chiquotay's ritual at the top. Yeah. Um, and kind of bookending the whole episode, you know, the, the prayer to his father and his ancestors and all of that, combined with this story of kind of a male initiation for Carr, I thought was beautiful. It was just a wonderful counterpoint. And personally, I, um, I think that, you know, we have lost a lot of these initiation rights, um, particularly for men. That, there is value in some of these things in talking about what it is to be a man. And, you know, I think Carr learned so much from Chakotay that his culture didn't provide,

that the Kazon did not provide. They just said, go kill somebody in your man. Chocote was able to offer this other insight and wisdom. And still, without shaming Carr or anything, was able to say, you know, you can be who you are and be a man and it can be more than you even a man. I just thought that was a great story. I agree. I think Ken Biller did a great job.

There's only one line that I, even when I was doing it, I was like, oh, man. I think I even asked Rick if I, we could change it. And it was that line, I'm a gentle man from a gentle people. You know, I just hated it. You pulled it off. That's funny that you hate it because I thought you pulled it off. Like it didn't bump from me at all. It didn't feel cheesy to me at all.

It did to me. because I don't think people should say that about themselves. Yeah, I don't forget which I'm. I'm a gentle person. It's almost as bad when somebody says, you know, I'm an intellectual. Right. Right. I don't know.

Yeah, it's funny. I hear what you're saying now. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I felt like you pulled it off because you were really trying to, in my impression of it was you were trying to impart a lesson. Yeah. of, I have, my values are to be respectful of people. My values are to be gentle and not combative, not, you know, to avoid conflict. That's what I got from that line.

Yeah, yeah, I figured that's why it was there. I just, at the time, it did not sit well with me. Yeah. Well, it didn't, it didn't rub me the wrong way either. And I, but I can see how you felt, Robert, that it was your anti-clever moment. and uh this is an inside joke between robbie uh robert and i so and rick colby was like when i when i said can we cut this he was what what you talking about no no it's no no let's let's continue let's continue let's continue yes when he didn't want to engage the conversation

no no it's continue let's continue um i want to talk a little bit about the kazon themselves I honestly not until this episode have I have I I never really realized how similar the Kazon foreheads are to Klingon foreheads very similar but just the foreheads as you start going down the rest of their face look like Skeletor for Masters of the Universe you know what I'm saying thanks for the shout up buddy I had to shout that out there yeah thank you so I completely I noticed that thing but overall I would have to say that Kazon are my least favorite species in terms of like enemy species in all of Star Trek because they just they're not believable to me in that they look so primitive but yet they have such modern you know they have just

these these these starships themselves and it seems like these guys are pretty much I don't even think they would even have warp technology you know what I'm saying it was sort of like where look at the way they're dressed how they deal with their environment how they talk it just to me it seems like they're very they're a pre-warp society that they don't even they shouldn't even have ships. So that kind of bothers me a little bit. I also think their ships literally looked like Klingon warbirds or something. Like they, the ships look like Klingons to me. A little bit more like Romulan, I think, than Klingon. Maybe Romulan. But, but the colors, the lighting felt very Klingon. The whole culture of like maveling and killing and death feels very Klingon.

Yeah. If they feel derivative and not nearly as interesting as a Klingon. I do feel the part of it is guys, I really feel like that, you know, like I said, when they were, when they were developing Voyager, they were finishing TNG, they were filming the movie, that they had so little time to put into the development of this Kazon race. And the Kazon were the first bad guys that we see in Caretaker, right? And what really, really detracts from them is the damn hair. That hair is the worst. I mean, it's just like, what is this crap that they've got going right there? If they got the hair right, then maybe we'd be, they'd be believable, you know? I'm sorry. Robert, any comments on Kazon, anatomy?

No, I think you're right. You know, we used to talk about this back when we were doing the show. Yeah, we did. I remember us laughing about the scene and the pilot where they wanted the water. And they, you know, water. Water. There's water. They have waters.

We have starships, but no water. Yeah. You have a starship. Go look for it. Yeah. You can make water with, what is, it's, it's, two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. That's all you really need.

It's not that hard to make water. Two elements. Two elements. Put them together. I thought the same thing, you know, it just wasn't quite thought all the way through. Yeah. Yeah.

An unfinished alien. Do the Kazon have any physical attributes that are particularly, like here's what I'm getting at. When you took Patrick and Patrick hostage in that scene, you know, you grabbed a gun, you grabbed him. I feel like the way that these aliens are designed, they're so combative and everything's about, you know, fighting and killing that I was just surprised how quickly he gave up

and that there were 10 other people in the room. Like, this is a physical, you know, UFC culture, and I just didn't buy it. I didn't buy that, that I also felt like they seem, like strong people. Like even Aaron was sort of punk. He had guns as a kid. You know, I mean, he looked strong and as an alien, I would think that they might be a little extra strong, stronger than a human. But we didn't really play it that way. You would think that when I grabbed him, someone would have thought, okay, this is my chance to make a name for myself. I'm going to

get this guy, you know, devil-may-care kind of attitude that they had. you know, to get your name no matter what, you know. Yeah, kill somebody. It's like that's, that's a heroic thing. I felt like the hostage situation was staged. And Rick Colby's directing, I love, but that was one moment. I felt like they should have come up with another, like a couple of phaserblast to back them off or get them away or something.

I felt like that, I didn't buy that. And I also didn't buy later on on the planet when Janeway and the away team get trapped in a force field. know, they walk into a trap or whatever. It was not very well explained, and they just sort of froze and looked around. I was like, wouldn't they bang on the side or try to do something? There was a couple of moments like that. I thought the staging, I was like, eh, I wish they could create a little more action moment.

I agree, I agree, especially with the disarming and capturing of Patrick Kilpatrick's character. Razique Razique I mean in real life Patrick was so strong this guy I mean I was holding him

and he was holding me and he was holding me with this vice grip I was in pain he was holding me so hard so he was really strong those are the downfalls of working with the method actor

they like to take it out on you you get beaten up by those guys practically you know but as much as the The blocking didn't work. It could have been staged a little bit better of your takeover of Rizek's character. Same thing with Aaron's character of Carr. When he takes over the second-in-command, Halees, what does he do?

He kicks him in the leg and just grabs his phaser from him. It's like, wait a minute, you could have blocked that a little bit more effectively where it would be more believable. It was just too easy to disarm him at that point. Did he do one of these? Yeah, the double-handed, yeah. And so when you were talking about Robbie, like you're wondering if the K's on anatomy was a little bit different because of their warrior, you know, nature. My immediate joke was like, oh, their penises are shaped like daggers, actually.

They use them. They use those as weapons. Oh, oh. When they lose their phaser, they can use their penis. So there is no real talk. And they wouldn't. They made it wood. They made a wood.

there's no real talk of any difference in their anatomy really and also what's interesting is we never see or at least i haven't seen i don't recall seeing a kazon female because in the there was one was there one yes on either the view screen when you talked in the shuttle robert i think when you talked in the shuttle to the ship that was pulling you in or something and it was a woman that came up yeah Really? I'm pretty sure because I remember noticing that and going, oh, that's interesting. Okay, because I haven't seen that. I don't remember that at all. Yeah, only men. And that would differ from the Klingons, because the Klingons include the women are also in command as well as being foot soldiers, you know.

They fight just as well as the males. So I was a really, really surprised to hear just now that you saw. I'm going to have to watch that. Yeah, check out. I think it's in the shuttle when the ship comes. up and they tracked her in in the shuttle yeah because you've got car in the back and he's like no kill me don't let them you know don't let them take me in or you know I'll be ashamed or whatever so he wants you to kill him I think it's whoever you talk to there somewhere around that part yeah um when you beam down the moon uh was that Vasquez rocks oh yeah absolutely and it was hot I was going to say It looked hot

There were How many episodes did we do Did we shoot at Vasquez Rock Something like Four or five At least If this was the Second episode of the season

We usually started filming in June Yeah June or July at the latest So this would have been June July or August At the very latest So yeah It would have been summer

Hot and those poor Kazan out there and the heat with all that stuff on. Yeah, it's a killer. Okay, so Robert, your line, when you're first in the rocks, you say to him, because for some reason that escapes me at the moment, I keep saving your life. Now, if you want to hate me for that, fine, but I'd really appreciate it if you kept it to yourself. And then he speaks a little bit, and you're like, to yourself.

And the only thing I could go in my mind was from the story you told earlier about Aaron, that the line should have been, because for some reason that escapes me at the moment, I keep hearing you sing that song. Now, if you want to hate me for that, fine. But I'd really appreciate it if you kept it to yourself. La, la, la, la, la, to yourself, like that. That's what I just. That's what I'm sorry.

Yeah, Aaron. Vasquez Rocks. Yeah, Vasquez Rocks is iconic. It goes back to the original series, right? They shot some out at Vasquez Rocks in the original Star Trek. Yeah. I think Kirk was out there a bunch, right? Fighting the Gorn.

Yes, the Gorn, of course. That was out in the rocks. And it's so funny, because it's just as hot then as it is now. You can see that sun. You don't even have to feel the heat. You can look at that scene and go, that's hot. That's hot, hot, hot day. Nothing.

No liquid. Fans always comment on how many shuttles that we lose on Voyager. And I think, is this the first shuttle that we've lost in this episode, Robbie? Would you guess? Or have we lost one in a prior episode? I'm sure we've lost one before. This is the first one that, like, is specifically I can remember. But, yeah, I can't imagine.

We go through shuttles. I want to keep a running tally of the number of shuttles we've ruined. It's just going to be really funny to know this. So I'm going to count this as well. Oh, yeah. We're destroyed. Yep. You're right, Robert, too.

When you said this episode, when we cut back to the ship, basically everybody's just going, Well, where is he? I don't know. Well, can we find him? I don't know. How can we find him? Let's try. Like the scene in the ready, in the briefing room, yeah. Briefing room, which by the way, I did not have a single line in. I wrote that down. Paris has no, zero line. You have zero lines in that briefing room. That's a first. Usually everybody says one thing. Like, you know, Paris will throw in something. But, oh my God. I got nothing except at the end, she says, Neelix, you stay with Paris on the bridge. She refers to you, but you still don't say anything. I don't say anything. I made a lot of good faces. You know what? They mean me because I was there to look pretty, okay?

Okay. But, you know, hey, but you actually redeem yourself because you are in command in this episode. I don't remember you doing that at all. I don't remember that either. But I did when I was watching the episode and the shot opens with Neelix going over and sitting in the captain's chair. And I paused it and I made a note. I was like, oh, great. So Neelix gets to sit in the captain's chair.

chair. I've never sat in the captain's chair. And then a second later, I pop up. I'm in command now. So it was okay. It worked out. Yeah, but you let him sit there. You should have sat there. I don't know why you didn't sit there. That makes no sense. I don't know. By the way, in the back in the brief, yeah, in the briefing room, Neelix has a line where he says something like, I think you call them booby traps. And he enjoyed saying that line just a little too much. Yes, Captain. I think you call them booby but you know what was what i found interesting was when you speak to the klingon guy when you're on the bridge and nilix comes up and uh not the klingon guy the kaysong guy see it that's very similar and um compared to him when he's on the view screen and you

it looks like it looks like you just finished shaving it looked like you just jumped out of the shower put on your deodorant and, you know, moisturize your face and put on your outfit and came and came to the bridge ready to work, you know, and this case on it's like, they look like what they really want. I was wishing that Patrick killed Patrick would say something like, oh, we want your soap. Because they just look like they're filthy. Yes, yes. I'm glad you brought that scene up, Robert.

I actually wrote out a part of that scene, and I'm going to do it right now for you guys. I'm going to do Robbie Duncan McNeil as Tom Parris, and Patrick Kilpatrick is on. All right, bring it. And this is sort of like a teaser, because for our captain and our Admiral Tier patrons, they get to hear my impersonation of certain scenes.

So I'm going to do a little quickie right here. So right on the view screen, You see, you see the Kazan and you see Tom Parris standing up. I'm Lieutenant Tom Parris of the Starship Voyager. Ja Razik, first mage of the Kazan Ogla. I will speak to your captain. I'm in command right now, so you can speak to me. You are trespassing in Obla space.

Why do you orbit our moon? Just stop to make a few repairs. We'll be on our way in no time. That is a lie. You are here looking for your commander, Chacote. Now, how would you know about that? Quite simply, we killed him. Tadda.

Nice, very nice. He did say Patrick called Patrick's pronounced Chakote. Yeah, well, he said it really quickly. He gave it a little extra judge. Yeah. He judged it. He judged it. After he says, quite simply, we killed him.

You'd now see a covered shot on Boulana sitting there on that side station. Did everyone notice she has a really very, a 60s buffon hairdo or something? It's like, what was that? What the heck? It was like, it was like, out of the musical hairspray. It was crazy.

It was, yeah, it was Annette Funicello from, you know, some type of, I was waiting for to do some crazy 60s dance move. Yeah, it was, it was a very different hairstyle that I've ever seen on her. Yes, yes.

So both Tom Paris and Balana, it just came from the spa and the salon. Robert. But you know, that B story was so thin, wasn't it? I mean, it was just like. Oh, yeah.

There was nothing there. Yeah, for sure. Boy, Neelix took a big chance on the bridge when he was like, he jumped in. A little out of line, though. I don't know. I mean, a little, I mean, you could have, you could have shut him up. You did try to shut him up, but you didn't like, you know, you didn't know what he was doing. I didn't know where it was going with this.

And then, you know, eventually you realize why he's so cocky, but it's, that's a big gamble. It was a gamble. Big gamble. He could have got everybody killed with that. Yeah. But he, you know, did you guys notice the one extra on the stage there in the, in the. a teal colored uh you know medical did not starfle uniform i think her name was jordan older lady maybe um but i remember specifically from this episode like if you look at if you see her she's

extremely tan and i remember talking to her and she was like oh i just got back from mexico and i thought oh you're really really tan right now and that's gonna that's gonna be kind of jarring you know compared to everybody else because you know we don't we never talk about going to a tanning salon on Voyager and getting super dark, but he was really dark. Yeah. Maybe she was Mexican. Was it? Was it Jordan Gonzalez?

Because she was Mexican. Yeah, no. She was definitely gringa. She was not, yeah. Yeah, you can't do that. You can't go get your hair cut on your own on a TV show and you can't go get a sun tan. No. You shouldn't because you shoot things out of order.

You never know if, you know, one week you have a tan, one week you don't. things aren't going to match. That's true. But it's always fun to me, for me, when I see those old episodes as to, I always remember the different extras that worked with us, you know. Yeah, yeah. Because I made friends with so many of them. They were fun, you know, to hang out with.

Yeah. Oh, that's the one that used to do her knitting all the time. And, oh, that's the one that was always reading a book. It's true. They became like our extended family. Really. We talk to those guys just as much as we talk to each other because, let's face it, we're cool. I mean, there are other series regulars on shows that really don't give extras the time of day, but we did. So I think we're more, we are more human, I think, or at least we're egalitarian.

Yeah, egalitarian. That's a good way to put it. That's seen on the bridge where Paris, you're standing next to me, we've figured out how to, you know, we can now break through and talk to have transmissions with them. Did you guys notice? I have blush, like major blush. like on my cheeks. I look so rosy, cheeky, cheek that... Maybe you just came back from Mexico. Maybe. Probably more like Arizona.

It's so funny things that I will catch of my character that you guys won't even notice. And there's things like Robert will catch on his character, like the lines where he had to say, like, I'm, you know, my people, whatever, that he didn't like, that he notices, that we don't notice. So we always are much more critical of our own, our characters, I think.

Well, that scene that scene that Aaron and I did in the caves. I love that scene. A couple of scenes in there, but yeah. Yeah, I thought that even though that kind of smacked of like Indian, hmm, we don't believe in owning land. We believe in earth, stars, you know, owned by everybody, everyone old. But I kind of liked it. I did too.

I made a note of that line. I actually liked, I thought that line was, it was bringing in a very, real Native American belief because that is true. No one owns land. I wrote that down. No one owns land. Yeah, I wrote it down too because I thought it was a great

piece of Native American culture to bring into this story with Carr who is all about this tribal factions and this is our land and you can't be here. There's our territory and territory. It all became, they were willing to kill anyone and everyone for terrorism. And so I thought it was a perfect way to bring in the idea.

Yeah, I liked it too. And that was that kind of the differing philosophy, you know, was pretty, pretty much what Chakotay was trying to teach him, you know. It was like, okay, you guys believe in killing people and getting your wings or your badge by killing someone in war. and we have evolved over the centuries to the point where we see that as completely irrelevant, unnecessary, a lower quality of thinking, you know, of philosophy. Yeah. We also learned from an expositional line that an outcast in Kazan is called a Govan, someone who is an outcast and that if he was to go to another sect that each one of them would cut one of his fingers off.

I was like, wow, that's pretty hardcore. Yeah. Yeah, I made a note of that as well, the Govan. Yeah, we definitely learned a lot about Kazon culture. And again, they brought up the trade in this episode. So that's going to lead to kind of the Kazon's relationship when they were enslaved by the trade later on. I did have this kind of errant thought, though,

when he said, whichever Kazon sect I go to, they'll cut off one of my digital. my digits. And I asked him, well, how many are there? And I was, if he had said three, and I would have said something like, so you still have seven fingers? What are the problem? You'll still have seven. But since there's 18, all 10 will be cut off plus eight toes, maybe? Yeah, that's the deal there. You still have you two big toes. You can walk with just two big toes, Farr? It's fine. Did anyone notice when the way the away team lands on the planet with Janeway that Kess, when they see the Kays on, Kest draws her phaser and

aims it at the sky. She doesn't even point it out towards the other. She did. I didn't know that. She pulls it out and she aims it straight up and I thought, ooh, because this is the first time Kess has been part of an away team, you know, because she's sort of like just hanging out. Clearly it's the first time. She doesn't know where to point a phaser. She doesn't know where to point a phaser. No one even instructed her probably on how to use the phaser. It would be funny if she pulled it out and ended up shooting Janeway by mistake. That would have been more of the comedic take on that one. But I noticed that. I thought the away team, I think I mentioned this earlier, when they are, well, two things,

when they run into the Kazon, they very quickly believe the Kazon. Why would they, why would they trust the Kazon? Yeah. Like, oh, let us lead you. We don't want you to get hurt. Oh, okay. We'll put our weapons away. Yeah, it was like, what?

It was so quick. It was so quick. And then they walk into the trap. they walk into that force field trap or whatever and they just stop and they just sort of stand there like oh well I guess we're caught in this

fourth field trap there's a couple of like I call BS moments that was okay come on but I have to agree with that I have to agree with that and usually I would say

Rick Colby usually shoots that kind of moments really really well I just, I felt like directorially with all due respect I think he dropped the, it just didn't work you know. Did he phone it in? He phoned it

in on this one. But he didn't in other scenes like in the cave when you're there in the cave and Aaron you're asleep and he's struggling with killing you or not and he comes over and he grabs the tricorder and he like the the way that Rick shot that was beautiful

it was really dynamic and just kept moving the camera movement and the way that Aaron grew into the close-up and it was all beautifully staged and shot. So Rick did some things really well, but those two little action sequences, I thought, were just like, oh. I'll play devil's advocate for Rick Colby here. I think that scene where they just go behind the force field

and just stand there that you're so upset about, I think that Kobe was like, you know what, guys, it's so hot out here. Let's just, let's just hurry up and finish us get home. Let's just do one shot. One wide shot, and we're done. One wide shot, and we are finished here. Just stand there. Don't do anything.

Don't take too long. You're trapped. Oh, well. Yeah. Well, I had one note about the famous Dennis Madelone shot to the chest and, wow. Yes. You know, the Dennis Madelone, the Dennis Madelone stunt, you know,

his legs kick up all the time. And every time that he's hit or shot with a phaser, he kicks up his legs and he falls flat back on it. That's signature Madelone, right? That's the way he plays it. We actually talked about Madelone the other day. We did. We were talking about how Dennis kept up with Cosmo, Genovese.

And when Cosmo was in the last days of his life, that Dennis visited him at the home, old folks. All the time in the motion. retirement home. And what I didn't bring up, yeah, what I didn't bring up, because I kept wondering, why does he do it? And I thought, you know what, this is Italian-American solidarity. Oh, yeah. Badalone, right? And then Casal Genovese. So these are two Italian-Americans that are, that are, you know, remaining close. So. Yeah. Yeah. So I think Picardo should have been there too, right? Yeah, no kidding. I had never heard of a code white. Yes. That was the first time I've heard of a code white. Yes. Yes. But you looked very shocked by it, though. You played it very well, Robbie. You were like, it's coat white. Oh, my God.

Yeah. The last thing I'll say is, I thought the prayer to your ancestors at the end was beautiful. I always love when Star Trek can bring in sort of that human, the mystery of being human and spirituality in some way in our sci-fi science technology world and kind of blend them together. And I thought that was great. I love the way that it ended. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, just to give props to Ken Biller, he wrote several Chakote-driven episodes that I really liked. Oh, great.

Ken's a great writer. He's very talented. Yeah. And he really came up, came of age as a writer. We talked about this in some earlier episodes, but Ken started as a story editor. He was just the entry-level job of writer on our show, season one, and he ended up the show-rime. by season seven. I'm going to call him, I'm going to call him Ken Biller,

champion of all Maquis characters. Because he wrote Faces, which was Bologna's big thing, right? She's Maquis originally. And then he wrote Chakotay's story here, which is Machi character. So it looks like he favored the Maquis, at least so far. Yeah, that's our recap.

And Robert, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Always great to see you guys. and to be part of it. Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for coming in and tribute to Aaron and his memory. And so it's really been great to have you here to share your memories. I think it's great that this episode is going to be around for people to see his work.

It's different than what he did on Deep Space Nine. And it shows a level of talent that he had, you know. Yeah, I agree. Agreed. Thank you guys for listening into. our discussion of initiations with our special guest, Mr. Robert Beltran, and tune in next week when Robbie McNeil and I will discuss and analyze the episode projections. Well, thanks again, Robert.

Okay. Thank you guys. Good to see you.