The Delta Flyers - Innocence

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Innocence. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.Innocence:Tuvok crash lands on an uninhabited moon, where he finds three children who have been sent there to die. It is later discovered, these children are not who they seem to be. We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers: Stephanie Baker, Philipp Havrilla, Kelton Rochelle, Liz Scott, Sarah A Gubbins, Ann Marie Segal, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Chris Knapp, Michelle Zamanian, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Matthew Gravens, Brian Barrow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Vikki Williams, Holly Smith, Jesse Noriega, Dominic Burgess, Amber Eason, and Lucas ShuckAnd our Producers:Chris Tribuzio, Jim Guckin, Steph Dawe Holland, James Amey, Katherine Hedrick, Eleanor Lamb, Thomas Melfi, Richard Banaski, Eve England, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Ann Harding, Gregory Kinstetter, Laura Swanson, Luz R, Chloe E, Kathleen Baxter, Katie Johnson, Craig Sweaton, Ryan Hammond, Nathanial Moon, Warren Stine, York Lee, Mike Schaible, Kelley Smelser, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Claire Deans, Matthew Cutler, Crystal Komenda, Joshua L Phillips, Barbara Beck, Mary O'Neal, Aithne Loeblich, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Heidi Mclellan, Dat Cao, Robert Deveau, Cody Crockett, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Oliver Campbell, Robert Hess, Cindy Ring, Andrei Dunca, Daniel Owen, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Amber Nighbor, Ming Xie, Mark G Hamilton, and Heather Chappelle Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey everybody, welcome to the Delta Flyers of Tom and Harry as we journey through the episodes of Star Trek Voyager. Your two hosts long this journey are myself, Garrett Wong, and my co-hosts, Mr. Robert Duncan McNeil. Hello. Hello there, Twinsie. I know. We're wearing the same. Go ahead. We did not plan this. I just want people to know. No, I almost wore the Delta Flyers hat, and I thought, no, thank God. Otherwise, we would have been Twinsies. Yeah, yeah, we both have this Delta Flyers official sweatshirt.

You can find the Delta Flyers store, which has the amazing cartoons that Rebecca has made. Yeah, you can access the store at, let me just give them that web address. You can access that store at the deltaflyers.org. Oh, that's right. we chatted a little bit last episode about possible other merch that we could go into we said maybe boxer shorts which would be cool you vetoed jockstraps though you said no delta flyers job how did you bring that back up two weeks in a row wow I just want to just ask you what else would you do man what other merch would you like to see besides t-shirts hoodies and mugs and stickers to offer on our store actual delta flyers shuttle crafts fully functioning shuttle crafts if we can do that you just imagine the retail price of that one million five hundred and sixty five thousand dollars for your very own shuttle craft yeah i don't know it's fun it's the merch is fun it always uh has been fun for us to

think about things we use and that we like and then kind of brand it with some fun creative Delta Flyers logos or cartoons or clever, funny quotes and things like that. Yeah. Well, Robbie, I mean, we could offer the real live shuttle, but there really would only be two purchasers of this shuttle. It would be Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk. You could buy it. Yes.

Maybe. Paul Allen, if he was still alive, he would have bought one for sure. Elon Musk has already got plans to go to Mars in that giant, it's called a starship is what he calls it, I think. So something starship. He's got a calendar. They just did a test flight on the reentry. I saw the video. It's kind of amazing what SpaceX is doing these days. It's just the everything seems to be coming together with the launches that they've got and taking, you know, their human flights up to the space station, the international space station, and all kinds of things are, it's really exciting. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

He is planning on going himself? No, no, no, no. I don't think he's planning on going, but he's, you know, this was really a goal and a vision that he kind of set for the company and to have manned space travel to Mars in his lifetime. And so they've got a ship that looks like it could do it. or it's getting close to being tested enough that it'll be able to do it. So, yeah. That's crazy.

It's crazy. I don't know if I would take that ticket. Tomars? Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm a little hesitant on that. It depends on how long the round trip is. Like this could, I mean, it's obviously going to take a while, right?

It's not going to be like a L.A. to New York flight. It's going to be a long, many, many days is what I'm guessing. Oh, I would think. Yeah, weeks. Months, maybe. I don't know. I'm, I've just been watching some of the launches and the re-entries and landings, and it's kind of amazing the technology, how advanced it is and what they're, what they're doing.

Yeah, still very exciting. Very exciting. Yeah. Okay, so this week's episode is. Yeah, what is this week's episode? It's innocence. Innocence. Or you can pronounce it a French pronunciation.

Innocence. Innocence. Innocence. innocent i don't i don't speak french so but you do you know what's the funniest the funniest thing is it's embarrassing too being at conventions ethan phillips i don't think he speaks any other language other than english he barely speaks that but he can imitate things so well and so i've been in overseas conventions in places like germany or wherever um germany comes to mind but But he will start making up a language and he's so committed and does the accent so well that you're like,

oh, my God, he's speaking German or he's speaking French or he's speaking Russian or he's speaking whatever the language is. But he's not. He's just, he's making up gibberish that is so committed with the accent. It's astounding. It's a talent that he definitely has. But sometimes I'm like, no, Johnny, don't do. that's almost as impressive as a as a trip to Mars really I think it really is

to gibberish in a foreign language that's not easy no and he just goes and goes and goes so you're like oh my god well he's going so deep of course he's really speaking this language but no he's not none of it makes sense although I hope he doesn't insult people that you know he's making he's not making fun of any language he just is such a great kind of mimic of languages and fearless in his commitment to the gibberish version. Yeah, that's key, the fearless part of it. Because he commits 100%. If you're not 100% into doing foreign gibberish,

you're going to crash and burn. And he doesn't. He keeps it going. He should have done that on Voyager. We should have landed on some planet where they should have just let him run. They should have. Like, oh, I speak this alien language, the Akritarians or whatever. Yeah.

He should have just done the gibberish version, like, oh, my God, that would have been hilarious. Oh, that would have been good. That would have been good. All right, man. So let's go watch this episode. Let's go watch Innocence. I'm excited. I'm excited, too.

All right. So we will be right back after watching. Okay, so we are back from watching Innocence. Innocent. Innocence, Season 2, Two, Two Viles. episode. Wow. I'm not surprised by the way when you and I were talking about this. What I remembered was basically the big information that comes out at the end of the episode because it was the only scene that I was in where they explained what's happening. That's why I think that's

why I remember. I didn't remember much of the rest of the episode, but I did remember that, you know, the big idea that sort of got spilled by, what's her name? The, what's her name? Are you talking about first prelate? Yes, the first prelate. Alcya? That's her name. Yeah, first prelate Alcya. Yeah, first prelate Alcea. so that makes sense you were you worked that day i did i find that's why i did notice that you and i didn't come into this episode until like minute 22 or 23 i don't think you were in it at all i know i wasn't in it um but i did have good hair in this episode i'm going to i have pretty fluff i had fluffy hair so oh right all right let's start off our recap the same

way we always do. Let's do our synopsis. Yeah, let's do our synopsis. You've got the haiku. I take the Limerick for this season. What is your haiku this week? My haiku is Tuvok is stranded. He must babysit Dreyans. Not children, old folk. I think there covers it. I don't know why we need the limerick at this point. I think we're done. All right, here's your limerick. You ready? I still want to hear it.

Let me hear it. Yeah, I'm running. On a moon where Tuvok's shuttle gets broke, there's three kids who aren't just a joke. Tuvok finally learns the truth. They aren't exactly just youth in their world. They're actually old folk. What?

You ended wars with old folk as well? Stop. See? We're like sharing the same brain. We wore the same clothing today. We ended our synopsis with the same old folk phrase there. That's unbelievable. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Teleplay by Lisa Klink, stories by Anthony Williams, directed by Njublj. James Conway. Jim Conway. He was a steady regular with us at this point.

He's been in a bunch of season two episodes. And then I think Jim Conway disappears after a couple of years because he goes off to work for the spelling company, Aaron Spelling's Company. And so Jim was not available to direct on our show. So he was season two. He was directing all the time. And then I think we'll find in the next season or two

that he's going to all of a sudden disappear, but he was running, I think he was running Aaron Spelling's company. Well, yes, that sounds about right. He was one of the execs there. And although he disappeared from directing Voyager, his legacy will remain because of the entire,

come on, Robbie, you know, thing. That will forever live on and on and on. So Jim Conway is, you're the one who wants to go eat cheese. was that the best you could do i wasn't did you have another thought okay all right so we start with the you know the first shot is is too vok is attending to ensign bennett yeah who dies and i got to say that's probably the first person to die in a shuttle act yeah i think it was one of the first people very few people die on our show we don't deal with death so the theme and the kind of the

the franchise, the story area of this episode is set out on the table from the very first moment, the very first scene with that crewman dying. And it was very sad, I got to say, very sad. I will say as we start this episode that this planet, that they filmed this episode, this planet was over on stage 17, wasn't it? Was that the stage where we built where the caves were and we built all our, so stage 17 was far away from the sets. We were on stage eight and nine, right?

And stage eight and nine, stage eight was the bridge and the mess hall and I think Janeway's quarter, captain's ready room, briefing room. And then on stage nine, we're all the hall. always the engineering sick bay and those were those were the classic that's where exactly where tng filmed and everything and then we had stage 17 far far away and i remember when they would take all of our uh you know filming equipment they would take these um carts and sort of tie them up together and they would drive them down do you remember they would sort of drive them down the the alleys because it was far.

Like a cart caravan was like a cart train that would go down all the way over to stage 17. Now stage 17 was very famous because they had filmed back in the old Hollywood studio days, the big studio days, there was a swimming pool on that stage

where they did all of their swimming pool movies and things. I guess those were very popular. A swimming pool was still in that stage just underneath the stage floor and another thing to know about that stage where the planet you see Tuvacan there were a lot of cats in there

do you remember this? Yeah, a lot of stray cats. A lot of stray cats and they would live and not the band, not the band. And they would live in the pool that was all the space that was underneath and they could not get rid of these cats and so a lot of times with those planet sets

like the caves or this kind of set you would smell cat piss you would smell the cat urine yeah it was really disgusting and there's not much they could do they would try but you know the cats we would go home and the lights go out and the cats come out and snoop around um so that's the first thing that came to mind when i saw that set was like oh they they built a whole planet which we did on occasion not often because it was a big deal to build a whole planet with the sky back and all the trees and but that's the first thing that came to mind was stage 17 the swimming pool under the stage and the cats oh and the other thing that came to mind was they would use a ton of lights

a ton of lights more lights than we normally use and we shot on film back then so they had to use a lot of light for exposure and it was hot it would get really hot do you remember that on that stage That's the least favorite stage, Robbie. Nobody liked that stage. No, it was a dirty, kind of older, just it had all the planet stuff there. So that's the first thing that came to mind as the episode started.

Yeah. That stage might as well have been in another zip code. It's literally, it's so far away from where our trailers were. Stage 8 and 9. Hair and makeup is right there at 8 at 9. Our trailers were by 8 and 9, and then 17 was just this far, far away. It was a, yeah, it was a trek. A literal trek to get there.

I see what you did there. You did? Yes, this episode was interesting. It kind of lulled me to sleep, actually. I actually fell asleep. Did you really? I did. I did.

It just kind of, it was very calming, listening to a Vulcan babysit these children, you know, supposed to. I loved watching Tuvac with kids. I think that that's a great. match up to have two valking kids but i know what you mean there was something very in his voice and there was a lot of lessons being taught and so i found myself sort of like okay we're hearing about a lesson a vulgar lesson same thing i was getting a little sleepy um oh did you i did but it was very calming it was there was something very comforting i guess about it um yeah i did enjoy janeway's

excitement talking about first contact with chakota i found that to be a really interesting we didn't often see that sort of peek inside both of their thoughts you know about first contact and first contact is such an important part of the star trek mythology you know it's it's just a very important part first contacts are always a big deal and so they hear them actually talking about their character's feelings about first contact not just diving in and doing it and skipping that part, but hearing about it, I thought, was really interesting. And then we come to the Transporter Room, where we meet the Drainns for the first time. Interesting.

They kind of resembled the, to me, they resembled the Ocampon from the pilot episode, when, you know, Harry and Boulon are kind of trapped there and the similar sort of color clothing. and that sort of the Ocampans actually had this kind of mesh that draped across their nose and mouth. These guys had kind of a mesh that came over their entire head, right? So there was some similarity to that. I wouldn't be surprised if they reused those, the wardrobe from the pilot for these aliens.

It happened all the time. They would recycle things over there. Yeah, repurposed. Yeah, and I find it interesting. They give them a tour, Jay. We give these guys a tour. They go to engineering. I think it's interesting that the first prelate Elsea has these concerns about you show us your warp core? Are you really pre-you know, she's value that. That's the most-fishing. She's fishing. You can tell she's very, a very kind of pious,

religious, conservative, you know, kind of conservative dress, the way that they cover their faces, you know, at least in an earth experience, most cultures that cover. their faces do it out of some sort of religious tradition that's about, you know, covering anything that might be showing off or, um, yeah, I thought, I thought it was very, it's very interesting to see the, uh, you know, the inspirations for some of these, these aliens, you know, like the, the face coverings. And she immediately, when she gets in the transporter room, uh, she says, she, she says a blessing to Chacote. And then Chacote responds. By the way, I wrote down here, Chakote responds with his blessing. He says, Onah who peznihits. Onah who pezna hits, meaning peace in your hearts, fortune in your steps. He says the spirit of his people share this blessing.

So, oh, nah, who peznihiz. That's the language lesson for today. I'm kidding. I don't know if that's any language or if that's a, that maybe that's like an Ethan Phillips but made up language but on nah who Peznihits

is what Chucode says I just thought that was interesting yeah okay so I jumped the gun so we're done with the transporter room and then they go to engineering yeah and you definitely see her piousness and her sort of

yeah like she's she's concerned she's like she's like wait a minute are you showing me this first because this is what your culture values more than anything else. And then we learned that the Drain's, or at least ancient Dreyans, were so preoccupied with technology that their society almost self-destructed. If it wasn't for an event called the Reformation, the Reformation saved them.

So obviously that's something where they all threw away their cell phones or something like that, right? And they were like, no, no to technology. So we learn a little bit about how pious these people are, for sure, during their tour. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. the Reformation. I thought it was interesting because usually that that tends to be like a way of describing kind of a regressive, you know, falling back on older traditions or, you know, abandoning, which is what they did. They abandoned, you know, they recalibrated their priorities,

I guess, and not, you know, not change and modernization or or technology in many ways. But going back to, you know, really doubling down on some older traditions, which I thought was interesting. So then, uh, the majority of this episode is really bouncing back and forth between Tuvac and the kids and the bridge and us trying to figure out where Tuvac is, right? That seems to be the main motivation. Sort of lost contact. The atmosphere sort of blocks out any, any ability to make contact with this moon. And they didn't even know we were on the moon because we only, uh, Tuvac only told we find later found it later balana and neelix i think because balana says oh yeah he he decided to go

check out this moon so definitely a bit out on his own there but um yeah it's interesting we go back down to tuvac and he's hanging out with the kids and tuvok talks about bennett's body and sort of taking care of bennett's body that he's put this force field around the body because they really value a ceremony that honors that person's life, which I thought was very interesting. And, you know, I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back on it, just again, the themes of life and death and different perspectives about it. And Tressa talks about, the little girl talks about the attendance that got them into escape pods to save these children when the shuttle was crashing, which I thought was an interesting, an interesting word to use in this dialogue,

you know, attendance, because immediately my ears perked up to that, you know, that the children seemed to be royal in some way, you know what I mean, that they had attendance. Yeah, yeah. But I'm guessing those are the attendance that each of them had that was supposed to attend to their passing, you know, to their release of energy to the next consciousness or whatever you want to call it. So, and then I guess they, they didn't make it, right? They crashed.

So that was, that was the, the whole point of them being alone, that we find them alone. Tuvok teaches the kids how to meditate. That was pretty cool, too. I like that. How to deal with fear. So there are a lot of lessons, actually, that Tuvok gave to these, these kids that could be utilized in the real world now for, for anybody. Yeah.

Right? So I found. The kids also. mention the TARDIS. Did you hear that? Yeah, they said something about the TARDIS. And I thought that's really interesting, because isn't the Tartis from the original series? Well, no, the Tartis is actually a reference to a Doctor Who. I could have sworn they said Tartis. That's right. That's what it is. It's Dr. Who. What am I talking about? Yeah, not the original series. Yeah, but I heard the, I heard the word Tartis. Maybe it was a different word, you know, similar.

It had to be a different word. I don't think that there might be a comic book crossover of Star Trek and Doctor Who, but there's definitely not a Star Trek television series crossover. When they're talking about the Moroc or Moroc or whatever they called it, they were talking about that. Yeah. And it was around that meditation scene, I could have sworn that they said something like a tart tartis or i don't know and i'd have really it's just the word jumped out of me but i didn't pause and rewind so i was like i got i got to ask gary about that because i thought i knew that was something but i don't watch doctor who so i didn't make that connection um oh shame on you hey garrett have you been traveling this summer oh my gosh so much already i don't always travel

but this summer's been insane trip after trip you've been doing your impersonation of me yes you know what doesn't belong in everyone's epic summer plans, though? What? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. So while you're planning your beach trips and your barbecues and your three-day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Well, that is why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. The coverage and speed are the same as I'm used to, but the savings.

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at mintmobile.com slash TDF. That's mintmobile.com slash TDF. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited-time new customer offer for first three months only. speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details yeah so yeah he meditates with the kids which i i think was really wonderful i thought that lisa clink did an amazing job in this episode with the dialogue of sort of describing for children who vulcans are it was a wonder and i thought tim russ did a brilliant job in his delivery of it although he was getting annoyed at the kids it's right around the time where he goes, oh, yes, I control my emotions. I, you know, they're like,

you don't feel anything? He's like, no, I wouldn't call it that. I control my emotions. He wasn't in control. He was getting very annoyed, which I thought was funny. I wonder how much of that is actually Tim Russ, the human being as opposed to Tuvok, you know, the character.

Because at this point in Tim Russ's life, he is a single man. He has not had a, child yet. Later, he ends up having a kid in the later years of Voyager. Towards the end, he ends up having a daughter. And I just think that maybe that was just Tim being kind of putting more of himself into that role than the yeah. Yeah. So the the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the Drey and send a team down to the planet to look for the kids. And, uh, yeah, a very close call. Because the,

kids have now told, told Tuvok that they sent the, you know, the, the, the adults sent these children there to die. They sent us here to die. They tell Tuvok, which of course sounds horrible that, you know, these young children in his mind who have their whole lives ahead of them are being sacrificed or killed for some reason. So he goes to hide them and barely escapes this, this away team from the Drain's that's trying to find them. did you find it odd that when that team was searching for them and they're hiding in the bushes and then that one kid like starts rattling the the foliage it's like what are you i know i know what what huh what does this mean hey we're hiding but not really come wasn't that kid on like

he was on another show like uh the maori sisters or i think it's yeah i think so that kid was on a sitcom or something. Family matters, I think. I'd have to look at it. But he was, uh, deaf. The Maori sisters. Yeah. The twins. And I think he was, that's his older sisters. And, and I think he was on that show as well. Yeah. But he looked very familiar to me. The kids I thought were great, by the way. I thought they were awesome. Yeah, they did a good job. Yeah, Torres and Neelix come back. What a weird pairing that is. Yeah. I actually, no, I was so curious about, about that arrangement. And they say they found lots of polyferonite

and they haven't heard from Tuvok. And again, I just want to mention Paris's hair was great on the bridge, awesome hair. And I thought, you know, they get a call from this woman. What's her name? The head lady with the Alcya. Alcia. She's an uptight meaning.

I wrote down. She's just an uptight meaning. I thought, you know, she's not very nice for such a pious person. She just was very sharp and mean. She got so snarky. She really did. And Janeway asked Bala to run, you know, run some scans or something. And she's like, do you find anything?

And Balaan's like, no, I can't find anything. And Captain says, you know, keep scanning. And Bala sounded in her delivery when she goes, I'll keep working on it. She sounded like this exasperated teenager. I loved that. I would love to have seen Boulana a little more like, God, I'm so, oh, homework is dumb.

Fine. It was very funny. Well, speaking of Bala, I just want to go back to the whole Balauna and Nielix combat combo. That seems like a recipe for disaster. Because, you know, Nelix is always Mr. Moral officer,

and I can just see him like, know, oh, so, Lieutenant Torres, why are you, something upsetting you? And I could just see her breaking his nose like she broke Ensign, Lieutenant Carey's nose. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I could see there being a major combustible sort of. Oh, I think it'd be hilarious to see an episode with those. It would be hilarious. Yeah, so, you know, eventually we see that there's some drain ships heading in and Tupac's

trying to escape before it gets dark because the children keep dying in the dark disappearing in the dark. So he's like, I got to get you off this planet before it turns dark. The captain asked Paris to join her. Woohoo!

I got asked to do. I know. I was thinking like, you know, at this point in the series, I feel like there was an opportunity. I don't know. Most definitely. There was flirtation, man.

You guys are sitting in this shuttle and there's that you're doing through pre-flight checklist and there she is going, we don't need that time. You know, I mean, it was a very like... Look at these guys. There's something happening here. I don't know why that didn't go somewhere for those, you know. For those that follow the romances and things,

I think this was an opportunity for Paris and Janeway to maybe have some, you know, some bonding. He had really good hair this episode. So, surprise there didn't lead to something. But anyway, they're flying down and Tuvok's trying to take off and there's some shuttle stuff. They're, you know, yeah, the Drain's kind of fire at Tuvok. He cannot escape the atmosphere. It does not have enough power to do that and ends up back on the planet.

What did you think of the Drey and? ship, the one that's in orbit, the one that first Oh, it's kind of cool. You mean what it looked like? I thought it looked pretty cool. To me, it looked like it was straight out of Star Wars. Oh, really? I mean, that was such a Star Warsy-looking design ship to me. I was like, wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And then the shuttle that you jump onto with Janeway is a different looking shuttle than the one that Tuvok crashes. Really? Oh, it was a little different. You're right. That one

is, yeah, that one was a, that one, the one that one that one that one that two Vock is crashes. It looks like that boxy tissue box, which is the old shuttle. I think they use that shuttle on the old shuttle. They used it on on deep space. Not like that shuttle was a hand-me-down piece of set that they never quite adapted. That's why the Delta Flyer shuttle was even created. Yes, but the one that you jump on to a Janeway kind of looks like the Delta Flyer. And so I was doing a double take going, wait a minute, Delta Flyers not even created yet. No.

Right? So why does that one look so sleek compared to, you know, the old boxy, that was like the Volvo of shuttles. Well, because the one that Tuvok crashed, boxy and boring. The one that Tuvok was in was an old set and they just didn't want to spend the money to build a new sleeker shuttle because you got to build the whole exterior. It's a very, it's a very expensive set piece to build. And they just wanted, it was saved them a ton of.

money just to repaint it and keep the old the shell of the old shuttle that was 10 years old at this point or more. Well, if I had a time machine, I'd go back in time and I'd take some of my paychecks and say, here, go build a better shuttle. Go put a sleeker, nicer looking shuttle.

But the one that you jump on with Janeway is sleeker. It was a little bit of same. It was. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we also skipped one thing. down on the planet Tuvok sings Oh I forgot about that Yeah I did skip that

I love that singing I loved it I made a note of that Oh my God Tovac sings I've completely forgot about that I wish Tuvok did a lot more singing on the show I really think that's yeah He should have He should have you know he should just sing

I love his voice feels at tactical I know Tim can really belt out Like an R&B song or a rock You know rock song with his band he can he can sing all kinds of styles but to sing with the quality of voice he had for Tuvac was the perfect voice it was the perfect

sort of magical you know vibrato in the voice it was just very yeah it was great it was great I wish he had yeah he has he has talent yeah that's for sure

I wish Tuvac had sung more of these Vulcan tales on the ship you know it would have been it would have been a really lovely thing to see. I don't think he ever did it again. But who knows, maybe he did, but I can't recall it.

But what if he just sang while he was on the bridge? Like if Janeway was like, status report, Mr. Tuvok, and he was like, I detect an anomaly to the starboard side. Something like that. That would be nice. Okay, continue. So, yeah, we, you know,

there's a lot of like shuttle escaping and Paris and Janeway trying to get to him. And they just can't quite connect. They can't get transporters through. The Dreyans are really trying to keep them from escaping with Tressa. And eventually, Tuvok has to land. And so we see them back on the planet surface, the failed escape. And the aliens come face to face with the Voyager crew with Tuvok and Tresa and Janeway and Paris with his great hair.

And Paris's hair. And this is the big reveal scene. This is the one where I, you know, like I said, that Netflix, you know, synopsis triggered something. I did remember that the kids were old, not young. So this is where the characters all learn it. We realize the aging process is going backwards and that dress is really near the end of her life. She's actually 96 years old.

I thought it was great. I thought it was a really great scene. I mean, it was a lot of explain. you know there was I I feel like if I had one criticism of this episode generally it would be that there's a lot of sort of explaining of our sci-fi ideas and explaining of our Vulcan culture and I would have liked to have seen a little more doing like things happening you know it was fun to watch Tuvok deal with children because that was just fun to watch but if this I guess what I would say is if this, as we learn in this final scene, if this big sci-fi idea is that the aging

process works backwards and that these children were really almost like very old people, very old humans with some version of dementia, some version of, you know, because they didn't know that they were old. They were acting like children. There's so much rich human experience to explore there. I wish we had seen more of that. Yes. And I wish we had seen it and known that that's what we're seeing, even if that had not been known by Tuvok. For example, if Tuvok was stuck down there and the Alsea lady had said to Janeway much earlier that, you know, we age backwards. And this planet is sacred because that's where as we age and become innocent again become innocent children in many ways

that we return to this planet in our old age but we appear like we're children if the audience had known that and then you go to see Tuvok dealing with the kids but he doesn't know it that could have been an interesting I think we could have gotten more into actually seeing how dementia might play out or aging where the where the mind and memories and things kind of fall away and the innocence like they say in the in the explanation that you know near the end of life that they sort of embody pure innocence they return to their childhood place of pure innocence um i think it could have been interesting if we had known that as the audience but we sort of find it out in this final scene where everything is sort of

explained so it's dramatically not very satisfying to me but still a cool idea it's just a lot of exposition yeah i hear you what's your theme uh my theme uh my theme was this might be stretching it a little bit but my theme my take away my lesson let's call it a lesson more than a theme wasn't just about death or dementia or any of those issues or aging backwards it was about people whose perceptions and perspectives are polar opposite you know tuvac thought these were young innocent children at the beginning of their life, and the other race knew that they were old people at the end of their life. So my theme, my lesson is, even with people who have polar opposite experiences to us, that if we dig a little deeper, we can see that things are true for

both of us, things that connect us can be true for both of us. So if, you know, I think once Janeway and Tuvok learned that, oh, your aging process works backwards, we just have to flip our thinking, but we still can understand what's going on now. That's the lesson to me is, you know, a reminder that when I think someone is maybe a polar opposite is doing something insane and absolutely the opposite of what I would do is to maybe look a little deeper at their perspective and their reasons, because maybe there's more that can connect us than I realize on the surface. long-winded way of a theme or a lesson, but that's what I took away from it.

Did you have a theme? It was hard for me to figure that one out. It really was. I mean, I would just, part of it was like strive to communicate with transparency. Because if prelate, I'll see it, I just sit off the bat. These aren't kids. These are our adult, you know, or old people, then maybe there wouldn't have been all this. There's so much drama over just people being, I don't want to say people being deceptive,

but people not sharing information is what it was, you know? And that, that I think has to do with how they went, they chose, the Drainans chose to isolate themselves because of all the issues they had with technology in the past. And they became basically more, you know, they became Amish. They were like, nope, we're just going to do our own thing. We're not going to interact with other races. other alien species and, and that's bad, technology's bad, everything's bad, you know, and it's just, you take it to the extreme. So really, the overall theme is moderation is key.

You know, everything in moderation. That's it. That's what you need to learn. I like that. On a scale of one to ten, what would you give this episode? I'd probably give it a, I'd give it about a six, maybe, maybe seven. I mean, it's a good, it's a good character development episode. It's a really, you know, you get to see some. Yeah, I think Tim Russ did not have enough to do in this series as a whole. So I was really happy to see him have a big episode like this. And I really connected ultimately to the themes and the ideas of the episode. But I'll say, I'd probably give it a four. I'd probably give it a four out of 10. It was not dramatically compelling. It was intellectually interesting, but I could have read

a treatise on that. I could have read some essay about those ideas. and been equally as enlightened to some of the ideas. What I really wish it had had was more drama, more real drama playing out. You know, the characters have to accomplish something and they don't accomplish it and that drives them to even more extremes

or, you know, or things that they don't know that they act. Anyway, there's all kinds of ways to create drama that's actually happening and not just talk about it. So I'd give it a four. Yeah. But for, okay, but for a show that has nine series regulars, and we are arguably the largest series regular cast of all, you know, compared to TOS, next generation, DS9, Enterprise, any Star Trek show,

we have the most series regular. I feel like DS9 had a bigger, even though they may not have been series regulars, they had so many recurring characters. They had a little recurring. They did. But in terms of series regulars, when you take a photo at the beginning of the year, the cast photo, we got the most. We have nine, you know, so it's just, it's very difficult to do justice,

character development-wise, when you have that many people and the limited amount of episodes per season. So anytime you have an episode that sort of lends towards one guy, knowing a little bit more about one specific character, the fans are happy about that. You know, and me being a fan of sci-fi and of Star Trek, I am happy to see a little something. I am too. I am too. I, yeah, and that's why I led with that, because I was really happy to see that. But as a, as a dramatically satisfying episode of television, it was a little below average to me. Well, you wanted to see more doing than saying or or then explaining.

It was a lot of explaining. Right. There's a lot of explaining. And a lot of times, you know, that seems to be the, not the cop out, but the easier road traveled, is to just sit there and throw the exposition out. And this is why this is happening, because we will tell you. There was, we won't show you. Do you remember? I think this, was this when we were doing Voyager, there was a TV show on Fox called Space Above and Beyond. Do you remember that series? Yes. I didn't watch it. But when we were doing, I think it was early in Voyager, Fox had the show, Space Above and Beyond. I don't think it ran for more than a season, maybe. One season. I loved it. I watched all the episodes.

of young people right and a lot of action yeah and um yes one of the things i heard and never saw this but they did an episode that had no dialogue until like the very end or something whoa the way i do the way it was described is it was basically a silent episode that they had to do this and do that and do this and at the very end there might have been a couple of lines where they finally spoke and i i love that idea too because what that does is it forces you to do you to do you can't rely on any character going well let me explain to you for a couple of paragraphs the really interesting things that you should know it's not it's they have to do something because they didn't have any lines so i i think that would have been interesting for us as a as a cast

to have had an episode where there was no dialogue that would have you know that something something happened to where we couldn't speak or you know i don't know whatever it was i just remember a silent episode and so yeah that's in our rating system I would say Voyager needed a silent episode to make up for the over explaining episode but but uh

all right there you have it there's our there's our recap rewatch of season two Star Trek Voyager innocence innocence yeah or how do we say it again Innocence

Innocence yes apologies to any French speaking people. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm making sounds that sound French to me. Pardon me. Omelet du framage. Oh, very good.

Omelet du framage? That was a Steve Martin joke from... Cheese omelet? Oh, okay. Yeah. Cheese omelet. Okay. Join us next week, guys, as we review the episode, The Thaw.

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