The Delta Flyers - Learning Curve

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Learning Curve. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.Learning Curve:Tuvok's attempt to train Maquis crew members in Star Fleet protocol leads to mutiny while B'Elanna and the doctor try to discover why the ship is mysteriously losing power.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Ann Marie Segal, Philipp Havrilla, Jason M Okun, Kelton Rochelle, Stephanie Baker, Stephen Smith, Sarah A Gubbins, John Tufarella, Brian Barrow - The Destination in Louisville KY, Chris Knapp, Daniel Adam, Eve Mercer, Matthew Gravens, Mary Jac Greer, Marie Burgoyne, Michelle Zamanian, Jason Self, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, and, Shannyn Bourke.And our Producers  Chris Tribuzio, Jim Guckin, Peter Patch, Steph Dawe Holland, Katherine Hedrick, Liz Scott, Deborah Schander, Eleanor Lamb, Thomas Melfi, Breana Harris, Richard Banaski, Eve England, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Ann Harding, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Laura Swanson, Máia W, Charity Ponton, Josh Johnson, Chloe E, Kathleen Baxter, Katie Johnson, Craig Sweaton, Maggie Moore, Ryan Hammond, Nathanial Moon, Warren Stine, York Lee, Mike Schaible, Kelley Smelser, Dave Grad, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Katherine Puterbaugh, Claire Deans, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Matthew Cutler, Crystal Komenda, Nevyn Cross, Barbara Beck, Mary O'Neal, Aithne Loeblich, Col Ord, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Heidi Mclellan, Rich Gross, Dat Cao, Cody Crockett, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Oliver Campbell, Selina Zhong, Anna Post, Evette Rowley, Robert Hess, Cindy Ring, Nathan Butler, Terry Lee Hammons, Andrei Dunca. Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey guys, welcome to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order. Your two hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Gerard Wong, aka Insen Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who portrayed Lieutenant Tom Parris. If you are interested in either an extended version of this podcast, or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which include added, wonderful bonus segments. Check out our Patreon page at patreon.com

forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron today. How's that speech? That was nice. It was wonderful. You added a wonderful. You added a wonderful. It always added a little something. I try.

Yeah. I try. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had a little break. Did you have a good holiday vacation? I did, yeah. We took the RV on a long trip and had a great time.

So I'm all good. It's very summery. I was up at the lake today outside Atlanta where I live. A friend of mine, an actor was in town visiting his in-laws, and they have a lake house. So we went up to the lake. It's just feeling very summary right now. Nice.

Yeah. And here's a question. question for you. Yeah. I know that you've just recently purchased an RV. Yes. And you took an RV trip many, many moons ago when you were working on Star Trek still and you rented an RV. Was that during Star Trek? I thought it was during, maybe I'm wrong. My timeline might be wrong. It might be right after, but anyway, yeah, long time ago, 20 years ago almost. Yes. And in dealing with that family trip, that long RV trip that you took, renting that RV, one of the things that you absolutely did not enjoy was dealing with the septic tank to the point that you told me never never again is what you said to me really my question yeah you said I am never going to take another RV trip because of that septic system dealing with with taking care of that was yeah it's a thing for sure you know there's definitely maintenance to do you've got to you know flush out your blackwater

tank, which is your septic. You've got a gray water tank, which is your sink water and shower and things like that. Time changes everybody. Oh, yes. You know, like, you know, when you're a kid, you can say, I hate Brussels sprouts, but then as an adult, you may like Brussels sprouts. The first time around was a big learning curve. It's like Brussels.

The first time you try it, you may not like it, but then you get older, you learn what's really good for you and what you like and you develop a more sophisticated palette. So you'll end up loving box. I love Brussels Grouse now. Right. So, yeah, the RV with my, my first time around, I had rented an RV a couple of times and it'd been a real mixed bag for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. But this time, I am thrilled. You love it. I do. I think the first time that I tasted beer, I was like, oh my God, why would anybody drink this? And now I love to do a little beer tasting, get a flight of beer. I tried the IPA, I try the, you know, so yeah, so sometimes we change, yeah.

Yeah, like when you were in grade school, the first time you kissed a girl, you're like, yucky, and now you've changed, cooties, yeah. And now you're changed. Yeah. I'm telling you, I really think you should plan a RV trip to a music festival, like an electronic music festival. Megan and I can join you guys, and we can go and be in style and stuff. of tenting it, we have an RV. Oh, it's nice. It's nice.

Okay. All right. So this week's episode is the learning. No, it's not the learning. It's learning curve. The learning curve. Like the voyager. It's learning curve.

I think it's just learning curve. But whenever you say the and then fill in the blank, you have to turn into it and be really dramatic. It's the podger. podcast. It's the Robbie. I don't know. It's the that should be how I talk to you from now on. Yes. The Robbie? How are you? It's the Robbie. Oh, you know what? I just, before we move on, I'm looking at you right now wearing your, are you out of your Vulcan Mind shirt, right? It's a design you made years ago. Yes, it is. One of those shirts and I love it. And somebody was saying, that Tom Paris says yes ma'am all the time

and I was like oh we should do a Tom Paris head and it should say yes ma'am in the shape of Tom Paris head I don't know it just reminded me let me write that down real quick it just reminded me of that yeah right it would it would be funny I don't know what a Tom Paris head looks like I'm gonna try well let me just try to let me work on it let's see what we can get yes yes yes ma'am

the shape of your head, basically, right? So it's not going to be any details. Just like, are you out of your vocan mind? Then we're going to have a yes, man. Okay. Yeah. All right. It'd be funny to have Janeway and Bala facing nose to nose.

And one of them says warp particles. Hey, I'm writing that down. Oh, hold on, hold on. I like the idea of like something inside a silhouette of a head, you know, like something that's. they say. And look, it's a real pencil. It's a real, yeah. Yeah, I like that. So, yeah, so this is, so this theme can continue. Yeah. T-shirts. I'm wearing the hat from Delta Flyers and I'm wearing a nice polo shirt by I've never seen that one. I don't know who. I don't know where I got it. I don't

know. Is it new or has it been in your wardrobe? You know what I think it is. There's this, I've done these things online where I, because I, I really hate shopping in person. Yeah. And I've done this thing called Stitch Fix before where... Oh, they send you an outfit. Yeah, you like go online and you say, I like this kind of thing and this and this and that. And then they send it to you. And if you like this stuff, you keep it.

And if you don't, you send it back. I think I got this in Stitch Fix. I don't do it regularly, but I've done it a couple, two, three times. Yeah, and that's new. I've never seen that before. And that color, it's either plum or a chocolate or what color? I can't tell it. It's kind of a plum.

Yeah, plum with very thin black stripes in it. Fashion, yeah. Fashion, okay. My fashion glasses. I have a lot of different glasses, got some new glasses coming. Your glasses and a hats guy is what you're. I love my glasses, hats, and watches, although I've been wearing a Fitbit the last couple of years, and I've got a beautiful watch collection that I never wear my watches anymore.

You know what I collected when I was in college? I collected sunglasses. Sunglasses, like I would save up all my money to get these revokely. Vaux sunglasses that were really, because in college, and if you buy a $200 pair of sunglasses, that's a lot of money. Oh, yeah. So that was my thing. I had to have all these name brand sunglasses.

Nice. Yeah, I remember that was what I collected back then. I am wearing, can you read that? Spanish Trail. Yes. Spanish Trail is a golf course in Las Vegas, Nevada, in the Summerland side of town, the west side of town. Spanish Trail is the original.

kind of like the Beverly Hills development of Las Vegas. It's a private gated community. A lot of celebs have homes inside a Spanish Trail. And inside the Spanish Trail development is an actual country club with a golf course. A friend of mine gave this to me that was a grounds there. I played many rounds there when he was a groundskeeper. The minute he left, I did have, I had zero access after that. But it was wonderful to play my 100 free rounds that I got to play with my buddy who was a grounds.

Nice. Nice hat. Thank you so much. Nice history on the hat. By the way, I'm drinking my Power Aid and loving it. I'm glad that you- And Power-Aid doesn't sponsor this podcast. They have nothing to do with it.

But I'm just telling you, they should, they should, Power Aid. Okay. All right, so for those of you who are listening, Robbie and I are going to go re-watch Learning Curve. The finale, the finale of season one. This is huge. This is a huge moment.

It was an accidental finale, too, by the way. We didn't, it wasn't planned to be the final. No. I mean, they didn't, they were, I think they were planning more like 24 episodes season one or something like that. And they ended up with 16 episodes. And Learning Curve is the last one of season one. So for those of you who are listening to our podcast, we're going to rewatch Learning Curve. Robbie and I will be right back with our discussion of Learning Curve. For all of our Patreon patrons, thank you for your patronage. We will be doing our segment, what do we remember right after this.

We are back from our rewatch. Yes, we are. Here we are, back from our rewatch. Of learning curve, not the learning curve. Just learning curve. Yeah. Written by Ronald Wilkerson and Jean-Louis Matthias and directed by Mr. David Livingston. I would say that this episode is about dealing with the marquee and Starfleet

Starfleet sort of integrating together, and there's a lot of grumblings by some marquee, and Janeway decides with Tuvac and Chakote that they're going to put the marquee through a Starfleet Academy-type training, and they're going to make them Starfleaders because they had never done that, and Tuvok takes charge of that, and along the way, he runs into some challenges with his style and his technique and the Maquis style and technique, and in the Tuvac learns and the maquis learn that they can learn something from each other and they have things in common and that's kind of the A story and the B story is the ship the bioneural gel packs on the ship get a very mysterious disease, a virus of some sort and so we have to

save the ship from losing its its ability to operate. So that's sort of the ship's problem. So yeah. Okay. So in the past, when I've asked you to do the synopsis, some of them have been short. Others have been quite meandering and rambling. So I started, that was pretty good. You've shortened it.

And then I was actually in a Twitter exchange with some, with a fan. I actually put down my message, my tweet into haiku form. Hiku is the Japanese poem. Yes, of course. five syllables, seven syllable, than five syllable. Yes, I love a good haiku. Yeah, so then I thought, huh, maybe I can haiku each episode. And then I thought, uh, that's really restrictive when you only have five.

Yeah. So then I said I could rhyme. I could do a quick poem of the synopsis. Oh, nice. Here it is. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay.

Learning curve as a poem. Maki rebel. Tuvok must quell. Neural gel packs infected. Bril cheese suspected. That's it. Nice. Nice.

I like this. We should keep this. We should keep this little short. Yeah. But I like you giving you a little bit more detailed one. And then I come in right after. You meander and I pull them. I go right to the jugular.

Wow. Nice. Okay. All right. Let's keep it. What are your thoughts about this up? Oh, boy. Well, here we are coming off of last week.

I struggled with the Jettrell last week. You sure did. I just, there was so little about it. I was, I was very frustrated and disappointed. And I felt bad for Ethan Phillips and the challenges he had with that storyline and the writing and the directing. And just, you name it. I felt like it was not a strong episode. And then, as we talked about earlier, we get into learning curve, the surprise season finale that was not supposed to be a season finale.

Again, I'm underwhelmed. I feel like, you know, we kind of fizzled at the end of our first season, in my opinion, you know, rewatching it into some episodes that were just lacked a dynamic sort of character engagement or sci-fi concept engagement or a relationship that you could really invest in. I just, I felt I was not blown away by this episode, particularly with the finale. That's my feelings. So Voyager basically phoned it in for the last two episodes a little bit. Maybe, yeah.

Okay. Maybe. I mean, I'm grateful that the fans stuck around and UPN stuck with us and Paramount stuck with us to get us through some lackluster episodes. These felt kind of lackluster to me. Yeah. Well, you know, the opening scene, we see another Janeway Holladeck in the old English set, whatever. I hate it.

She's the governess. I hate it. I didn't think we were going to revisit it again, but Cthexas was where that was introduced. And a couple of episodes later, we see it again, right? I hate it. I mean, it's just a 19th century melodrama that, you know, the first female captain in a Star Trek series.

And if she's going to do that, I think I made a note to myself, like, why not have her be supernanny? Do you remember that show's Supernanny where she'd come in with the kids that were out of control? And she'd be like, you little brat, you sit down and be quiet. Like if Janeway had come in and was like a different sort of, like if they're going to put her in that holodeck, which I hate, and they're going to put her in lacy dresses and all these like stereotypical feminine traps that are just blah. But if they're going to do that, then have her, like, why is this her hobby in her free time?

Why is that the thing she, you know, I kept thinking. all right, if she's a gamer, and I'm not a video game person, but if she's a gamer, like, would that be the video game that Catherine Janeway, Captain Catherine Janeway would pick to play? And if that is, then what is it about it that, like, I just don't understand it. And those little kids were just annoying as all get out, those little kid actors with the bad British accents and the little boy, like, snapping it at Kate and, you know, Catherine Janeway and I don't know I just found that whole thing like why what they were introducing this conflict I guess this you know kind of the kids being you know

challenging her authority and that was sort of echoing the maquis I don't maybe I don't know it seemed strange I just I hate that I hate that holodeck and I hate that's her that's her hobby well I'm gonna do flip side of the coin here I'm argue for her on this and just say that, you know, it doesn't, that holodeck program choice is not, you're right, it's not in line with who Captain Janeway is, obviously. But as human beings, we all have really weird tastes, you know what I'm saying? And we have very, each person has their own peculiar sensibility when it comes to what they do in their free time. And, you know, Some people might collect stamps.

Other people like birdwatching. Other people will play video games. Some people might like extreme sports, right? And in this particular case, Janeway, her secret passion is 18th or 19th century England. This is what she maybe studied when she was younger in Starfleet Academy as her elective course or something like that. I don't know. But I feel like this is just a fetish, you know. And as really kind of bland as this fetish may be,

this is her fetish. So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna go with that. Yeah, but if this was her fetish, as writers and producers of a Star Trek series and in this franchise, the first female captain, if she was into the 19th century England, then why not put her at Parliament, trying to be the first, you know, female woman in parliament

in the 19th century and whatever that might, I don't know, they're just, there could have been, something that elevated that period, if they want to use that period, and made her a game changer. Because as a character, she was a game changer for Star Trek. Why not bring that, or go the total opposite? And she's just the doting, I don't know, something that was more in line with her character or a counterpoint, the opposite of who, you know, that she loved to escape responsibility by being the lady of the house or something and taking care of by servants. I don't

know. It could have been either one of those things, but this is sort of an odd, like, I don't know. Are you feeling that there's not 100% commitment one way or the other in this? Yeah, I just don't know what it, yeah, I don't know what it adds to her character, insight to her character or strength or complexity. I don't know. And it's never really explained. And, you know. True. To speak to your comment about why didn't she, you know, choose a holodeck program where she's a member of parliament in dealing with this and i kind of feel like jeanway every day on the ship or every episode at least is making a life and death's choice right she's always having to do do this stuff about you know if i make this choice this is going to happen

if i make this choice this these aliens might die whatever that she almost needs something that is an escape. And really that is her escape is to really not think so much about making these huge decisions and doing something that's sort of like a, that to us seems quite boring. It's really a way for her to temper her daily life. So maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. Yeah. But I do see that they could have been, they could have put more, the writers definitely could have put more into this, you know, one way or the other. So I agree with that. One thing I thought was interesting is that the Bajoran machi, the character of Kruman Garan, that is the character name that was given to my character,

the character that I played on the independent film, Star Trek of Gods and Men, was Commander Garin. It's the same name. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, and then when they did that bridge simulation in the holodeck, they placed Garin in my operations console. So it was like, yeah.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So there was some parallels there, which. which obviously Star Trek of Gods and Men came after this season. Sure. It was filmed after the end of Voyager. So I'm guessing maybe this episode influenced the writers of, or it's just pure coincidence. They sat there and thought, and sci-fi alien named Garen is close to Garrett.

And maybe they didn't even know that this guy existed on the show. Yeah. I did find it interesting when Tuvok still in the teaser before the opening credit. when Tuvok sees that Maki Kruman, I forget his name. Dalby. Thank you, Dalby. That's right, because I got to comment about that later. But Dalby pops out of the Jeffries Tube,

and he seems very, very, you know, friendly in the beginning. And then it escalated so quickly. I was like, whoa, boy, that escalated real quick. It was so casual and nonchalant. He was, hey, just fixing this thing. And then it turned into this. By the end, he's like, I can't stand this place. Yeah, it was crazy.

And at least they addressed it. Like, I hate when those things happen and no one addresses it. Because later in Janeway's office, Tuvux literally says something like, yes, he went berserk or something. Yes. Yeah, he completely lost it. He really did. He did. When they're in Janeway's office, by the way, and talking about that, Janeway says something like, oh, yes, I've heard.

about Dalby. I've heard a lot of things, you know, people have been talking to me about him. And I was like, what? Who's been talking? I've never heard of Dolby, Dolby. Who is he? Like, no one's ever mentioned this guy's name. And all of a sudden he's ever seen any of these guys until this episode. No, no. By the way, I wish we would have kept Shell around the blue guy. He was funny. Yeah, you like him? Yeah. He was funny. The overtalker. He was funny. He could, He definitely could have been comic relief in future scenes on Voyager. Yeah, I liked him a lot. He was good.

And also, by the way, I had a thought early on, and Tom Paris doesn't come in this episode until I wrote it down. Where is it? Tom Paris shows up at 37 minutes and six seconds into a 42-minute episode. 37 minutes into the episode before we saw. Paris and I wrote down early on before I knew that he wouldn't be you know that we Paris wasn't going to show up forever I wrote down oh training the mark the marquee um into being starfleet Tom Paris would be a perfect person to put into this group yeah either as a student or as a co

teacher or something to say like hey I've been both I've been like right I've been on both sides of this and like and and that would have been a wonderful relationship to explore with two Tuvac in Paris. Yes. You know, trying to, Tuvac still could have learned his same lesson. Could have, it just would have been a much more interesting,

not that I want, you know, it's long past, clearly. I had nothing to do in that episode, but it was just another example of, I think in this episode, the reason that I was disappointed

was because in a series, your heroes are your series regular. Like Harry Kim and Tom Paris and the doctor. and balana like those are your heroes that's your audience's way of following the series and they're invested in these characters because we've already done 16 episodes before this why are we starting with this group of marquee that no one knows no one's invested in i don't i don't know or care why the bajoran kid is an introvert because there's no there's no time to to get to know him and get invested so if you

you bring in, you know, the series regulars into these stories and you allow the emotional journey to be on our series regulars and let the guest stars just bring the facts and the plot. And it was it was almost like upside down here because Tuvok didn't start to have an emotional journey until he had a scene with, with Neelix very late in the, in the episode, where Neelix is like, oh, you're in a mood. Everything up until that point had been focused on this like, why are the Maquis so mad? And why are the Maquis uncooperative? I don't know. It just seemed upside down to me.

Well, your comment about how Tom Paris would have been a good choice in order to kind of help teach these guys because he's kind of been on both sides of the path, right? Well, you're right about that. And in fact, that scene between Tuvac and Neelich should have been between Tuvok and Paris, right? Because Paris could have given Tuvok that advice about. how to deal with those guys because in that scene between Tuvok and Neelix, which I do love, I love seeing

that combo together. I do. I would know that. That scene was there to have Neelix show Tuvok that he was too rigid, you know what I'm saying? And he did that analogy using those, he was using the flowers. And I thought, okay, that's cool that you use the analogy of the flower stems. One is flexible and one is rigid. And then of course Tuvok thinks that Neelix is basically telling him that the marquee are too rigid and he's like no you are too rigid that would have been a great scene for paris to have been involved in it didn't really you know to me feel like it made sense to have nilix be there but you know it is what it is that's how yeah it's it's just um i'm surprised at how sometimes when i look at the screen time like you were talking about earlier um someone

kept track of the screen time of all the characters that when i see tom paris not coming until 37, 38 minutes into the episode. Yeah. It just seems like the writers did not even comprehend that they should be servicing these characters for the audience, not for me, not because I want more scenes. Right. But for the audience to care about these series regulars more deeply and feel more invested in them.

And when you know that you've got these marquee characters that we've never seen before and we're never going to see again, to give them all this backstory about, you know, the Bajoran, was it the girlfriend, the woman he fell in love with. He talks in the Sandrine's. Again, by the way, they're in Sandrine's, which is Tom Paris's holiday.

Where's Tom? Where's Tom? Yeah, it's not that, and it's really not that I look at this and go, oh, why didn't Tom have, why didn't I have more scenes? I just feel like, as an audience member, I'm looking at it going, I want to know what Boulana's thinking in the scene. I want to let Harry would think about this moment.

I want to know what, you know, I want to see the doctor do some comedy or, you know. I mean, you've got the most series regulars of any Star Trek show. Basically, we have nine series regulars. Use them. You know, use them. Don't ignore them. I was very surprised when the marquee all walked out of the cargo bay on Tuvon. on Tuvok that first time that it, you know,

I'd rather be in the brig than in here with you. And I was very surprised at that moment. By the way, I think that's the first time we filmed any scenes in the cargo bay. Oh, really? I think so. Okay. Yeah, I don't think we had the cargo bay.

I don't think earlier than that, that's the first time. And that cargo bay also became our holodeck, you know, with a hollow grids, they would sort of redress it and make it look like a holodeck. Yeah. I don't remember ever using the cargo bay before that. Yeah. You know what's really interesting for me is while I was watching this episode,

especially toward the beginning, every time that Dolby and Tuvok sort of clashed, and Tuvok being his superior. I don't know if it's because I've been watching so many videos and YouTube videos lately about police brutality and just showing how many cops have been misbehaving, but I kept, I kept waiting for Tuvok to beat the crap out of him, like thinking that, you know, this was going to, I was like,

oh my God, Dolby, don't, don't mouth off. You're to authority because you're, you're about to get, well, Chocote did that in the mess hall. Chocote did that. He pulled up a chair, and he punched him, and he, which I think is a weird lesson for Star Trek. Like, I was surprised it. I was, and by the way, like, so Chocote does this very provocative thing.

He punches him and basically, threatens him you better get back in there and then we don't really see chakotay much the rest of the episode again not servicing like i want to see chakote i want to see janeway call chakote in and say you're punching these guys you're threatening them that's not how we do things and yeah i get why and have him defend why he did it and maybe stand up for sometimes you got to like sometimes this is the only language that people understand and i don't know i to me that's a scene i'd rather see that scene than more scenes with these characters that, you know, we just, we're not super invested in.

It's interesting because the punch is a little awkward, and I think it's a little awkward because I think the director, I think David Livingston probably told Beltran that to make this scene look, you know, frame better, I need you to punch him with your left hand. Because the way he's sitting, he's doing a left, it's like a left cross is what it does, you know? It's, let's face it, I mean, he's a writer, he's a righty.

But in this scene, Beltran is punching with his, his non-dominant hand. So it's not as fluid as it could be, I feel. So I know, I pick that up. It's small. Well, it's interesting in, it's interesting in stunts for camera. Whenever you see people punching, and some of you may know this out there in the audience, but I'm just going to demonstrate. So you always have to have the fists come across in front of the face.

So as long as it comes across, and the person, I'm sort of demonstrating for those listening on audio, but if it comes across the same line between the lens and the face, it'll look like a hit. It'll look like there was contact, but then I'll turn sideways. If you see it from the side, it just looks like you don't have to be up close. It can just be like this. I think what happened there with Chiquotay's left hand is where the lens was to go across the line of the face and not actually hit him, he had to use his left hand. So it became a weird

yeah. Yeah, it became a weird punch. A lot of times with fights, you know, you have to choreograph sort of to where the camera is. And you're right. I think David Livingston did that. Yeah. Yeah. Forced the action into where the camera was sitting. Yeah. And that makes it tough on the actors too because you're literally asking human beings to do things that are contrary to what they've known their entire life it's sort of like huh yeah you need to slap him along this axis you know it's like along this axis okay and you got to make it if you punch or swing too quickly the camera will not read it would not read as a punch or a slap you need to slow it down in order to make the camera catch it and it's like oh wow and these are all things that again you're not taught this when you're

doing, you know, stage plays in college or high school, you don't have taught about how to act to the camera. And you really have to keep that in mind to make it look realistic. And it's a pain the ass, I think. It's funny where the camera was, just to beat a dead horse on this punch, you're right. The left hand, I did notice it seemed stagey. It didn't seem authentic. And he could have easily said, all right, but if the camera's here, instead of punching with your left hand, you could take your right hand and back smack. Back fist him. Back fist him.

And that would have accomplished the same thing for the punch. It would have been like the back of the fist. Yeah. Coming across the plane of the lens and the face, it would have looked like it made contact. Right. But it would have had more, you know, it would have had more authenticity to it.

I'm just glad they didn't use the standard cheesy two-handed Star Trek, two-fisted thing, which you see all the time. I don't know who came up with that, but that thing, it's always bothered me. It's starting from the days of Captain Kirkie, use that double-fisted.

And we do, too. Like, you've seen it multiple times. It's almost like, you know, our stunt coordinator danger was sort of told by Berman, you've got to keep the two-fisted thing going. Yes. Like, okay, two-fisted it is.

Funniest line ever in this episode, get the cheese to sick bay from tourists. That was good. I have a good funny line. I thought when Tuvok says, your headband is certainly festive. When he was in the cargo bay and talking about the uniform, I thought,

your headband is certainly festive. Yeah. His deadpan reading was very funny. There is a lot of comedy in this episode. There is. Which is surprising. And I made that note very early on. I was like, wow, I'm laughing at Shell.

I'm, you know, there's some funny lines and funny, moments but I found the tone overall very confusing in the beginning because I again I couldn't tell what was at stake and and you really want to keep the stakes high with your series regulars and the stakes were high it seemed until well into the episode the high stakes were with our maquis characters that we didn't know right you know Tuvok didn't seem to have high stakes Janeway was playing with her frilly dresses on the holodeck no high stakes there um it all seemed very low stakes until and even when the the gel pack went into sick bay which by the way I was so excited I was like oh my god I forgot about this this is a great that's a great sci-fi idea like

the to figure out this problem and I love the cheese solution yeah it was I wish we'd spent a lot more time on the on the sci-fi story of the bioreal gel packs getting the infection and how that happened that would have been more interesting to me and as far as I know I don't think we ever see these maquis ever again in the remaining episodes of this of this series we never ever even get a sniff of these characters right so and by the way there were four of them and they were talking about how the maquis were so problematic as a group they should have had 20 or 30 marquee in that room like that would have yeah you know there should have been a lot more of them yeah that would have made to really that would have made the stake seem much higher when you put four you know

four people in a room, it's like, really, this is what you were worried about? Like, these four, just lock them up. Like, that's not a problem on the ship. Yeah. The scene where they're doing the bridge simulation on the holodeck, when they were taking fire from the Romulan ships, they were very awkward while shaking. Did you know? I did notice the shakes felt, yeah.

And I sat there and I thought, they didn't get that video from Kim Friedman. They did not get the Kim Friedman tutorial on how to shake correctly. I also noticed when they did the holiday bridge simulation, even though I know it was supposed to be our bridge, identical bridge, I get that. I wish that they had done something a little different, like the lighting different or just something so that it felt like, oh, we're in sort of a play version of, it was just weird seeing those characters on the bridge exactly the way that it normally looks. I mean, I know that's probably authentic,

but it would have, to me, I would have taken that opportunity to say, all right, this is the holodeck version. It's a little different. The lights are. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And they didn't.

No. I thought when Tuvac was taking them on the climbing through the Jeffries tubes, we only had one Jeffreys tube junction set. We had literally had one tiny closet that had one ladder going up and down. and I think one tube going off that way and one two tubes and one ladder and they recycled that same little closet for that whole sequence and yeah they would just pop up as if they were

climbing from something below there was I don't think there was anything below no I don't think so I think where they'd see you'd see them coming out of one place and going up another and it was all the same set just sort of recycled over and over did you ever film in the jeffrey's tube yourself yeah do you recall okay That's probably my least favorite, was any scene in a Jeffries tube, was my least favorite scene because you're on your knees, you're on your knee, you're trapped, but it's not only just claustrophobic, but your knees are such pain because you're you're kind of crawling on your hands and knees and they, the floor of that Jeffries tube with these little really hard bumps

that, you know, there were these indentations and they just, they were murder on your knees, literally. It's just like, I just remember thinking, who designed this? Why didn't they make this out of of soft, cushiony, foamy material. Yeah. That would have been, they could have been painted to look rigid, but then it's just like nobody could actually crawl long, any length longer than five feet without passing out in pain

because it was so, it's not good. I just recall. That was not my time. I noticed that Tuvok did not sweat when they were all finished their workout. And do Vulcans not sweat? Or was it just that he was in such great shape? That was the point of that. Because I feel like Tuvok in other episodes was moist and, you know, sweaty looking or perspiring

or in some way. But they were all dripping with sweat after, you know, the extra gravity and all the things. And he was just completely, you know, clean and dry and didn't break a sweat. Do you know if they did Vulcan sweat? I think they do sweat, but I'm going to say this. Their home planet has two sons. So if you grow up on a planet with two suns, you're more used to heat is what I'm going to go with. Okay.

So the sweat glands are there, but they've adapted over time. So they're more like Las Vegas or Phoenix, Arizona residents, you know, they can get, they can take the heat. All right. That's going to be my argument on that one. I also feel like Tuvok, and I made this note and I realized this story later on, but I made in a note, like, Tuvok is really being a jerk. Like, isn't the goal to get them to join the Starfleet as team members? If that's the goal, then being a jerk to them, you know, in his training was the wrong

strategy. I just found that that seemed, I just didn't buy it that Tuvok would not understand. He even says later on, you know, I've, I've used these, I've trained thousands of Starfleet cadets and my techniques are flawless and I was like I think they're flawed like I just don't buy that the story you're trying to tell I yeah I don't see him as being so much of a jerk as opposed to just stating the facts you know and he was just always just by the book right and it because like to me to be a jerk you kind of have to be a little malicious a little a little like tweaking at somebody, you know, and I didn't really feel.

I felt like he was doing it. You felt that? Okay. Provocative. Okay. I'll say the only time that I felt a provocative feeling was from my character. When that's seen in the, uh, when we're in the transporter bay, and I'm there with Oh, yeah.

And Chell is cleaning the transporter pad with a micro resonator as opposed to using, uh, what were they saying? It was like a magneton scanner. would have cleaned it, you know, in a second. And then this micro resonator, he's like basically cleaning the floor with a toothbrush, right? Yeah, like with an advanced toothbrush. And then as I'm walking out, I'm like, you know,

I look at him and I'm like, hey, you miss a spot. I thought that was the jerkiest moment in this entire episode. It was from my character. Because I didn't even laugh about it. I didn't, I was just sort of, I felt like I was hazing chill. I felt like I was the upperclassman, giving tell yeah but I didn't feel bad about

I didn't think he was a jerk there because you didn't realize the context you just saw the one thing and we're kind of teasing him like if you knew that they were really upset and that they were having a much bigger conflict with Tuvac as a group yeah I think you would have been more sensitive I felt like in that moment

you were just like you didn't know much of the story so you were just like have fun with that good luck you know I'll stop me towing myself on this then I'll walk away from that. By the way, Neelix comes in and picks up on Tuvok's mood in the mess hall. Do Vulcans have moods?

Like I found that a little. Again, I want to call a bull on that because I'm like, really? Can you pick up on moods of a Vulcan? Well, the way he said it was sort of like, I notice you don't have your teeth. You're faced the wrong way. You're always usually face into the mess hall. Now you're facing out towards the starfield, right? So I think he was just guessing.

Noticing his behavior. Just nothing behavior changed. I think Tuvok was the one that used the word mood. He said, you can see my mood floating around me or something like that. I do think they have moods, but I think they've been able to regulate the problems, right? Just like their feelings are regulated. They feel things and everything, but they don't let it out, right? That makes sense.

They're very stoic. They're like Asians, you know, very stoic. Yeah. So I thought it was very interesting when we're talking about Tuvok and Neelix gave him the lesson on the flower. and then he starts taking that cheese goo and tossing it in some noodles or something and then comes over and Tuvok is the one to go, oh, cheese has bacteria and he looks up with the vents.

Yeah, I thought that was an interesting kind of turn of the plot. When he first took that ball of cheese and sort of throwing it into that noodle thing, whatever, I didn't even know it was cheese. It looked like coleslaw to me. I was like, oh, it's coleslaw. I thought it was cabbage. I thought it was butter.

He looked like butter to me. He's going to throw a big old, he's going to throw like six handfuls of butter into that pasta dish then. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It would probably taste better with all that butter, too, though. But, yeah, it didn't look like cheese.

I felt bad for Neelix. Poor Neelix. And by the way, you know when the other crew members were there scanning the next meal that Neelix was making, like they didn't trust Neelix and they had their scanner? And it sort of tilts up off. the scanner in the foreground, the tricorder, and you hear one of the crewmen and the lady say, what is that or something? Yeah.

I noticed in this episode more than once, that was a place where they had an extra doing something. And they used a loop group. They use the loop group to add a line as if that character that we see their back, as if they're saying something. And they did that a couple times in this episode. Robbie, can you explain to everybody what a loop group is? A loop group, yeah, so loop group, when we go into mix the audio to finish us an episode. So on Star Trek, like the mess hall, when you hear other people talking or mumbling in the background, you know, softly because there's 30 people in the mess hall, when we're actually filming it, we don't have the extras make any noise.

It's completely silent. They're miming their mouth and no one says anything because we want to get clean audio. of the actor's dialogue. So you don't have the rest of the room kind of mumbling around. So we bring in a thing called a loop group, which is usually a regular group of people, you know, eight or ten people that you'll bring in,

and they'll do those scenes in the recording studio. They'll look at it up on the screen, and they know how to do it. They're used to doing it, and they mumble and say things so that we have the group. And sometimes there'll be a moment like that where you'll pull somebody from the loop group and say, hey, can you just do a couple lines,

this extras scanning Neelix's food? Can you say, what is that? And they'll have a couple people do it, and they'll use those people instead of the person on camera who never said anything. So that's the loop group. The young lady they used to, she's wearing the teal uniform, right? Do you, I'm blanking, I cannot remember her name,

but she was one of our regular background actors in the beginning, but she got let go because, believe it or not, her, what it was was her boyfriend was like in set construction or something like that, and he injured himself that he was at the emergency room in the hospital. So she actually left to go to the hospital and she rushed off set with her uniform. She didn't go to wardrobe and they flipped out. So she was concerned because she thought her boyfriend was dying, you know? So she's like, oh my God, I got to go.

I got to go. I got to go. I don't have time to take this off. And so she left and she was let go of after that. And I thought that was really not fair, you know. No, of course. I know this because I became friends, you know, with a lot of the different regular extras that we had. I knew them on a first name basis.

And some of them I even, you know, had their numbers and spoke to them on a regular basis, believe good or not. And she was one of them that I knew. And I was like, I haven't seen you in like weeks. I go, what happened? She's like, I got fired. I go, what? And then she told me the story. And I said, this is ridiculous. You literally, you didn't do it on purpose. You know, you did it. You were in a state of emergency. It was an emergency. And when you're in an emergency, and if you're significant another, is in the hospital because he has a six inch gash in his arm or his leg and he's running out. I think it should be, you know, there should be a little bit of leeway. allowed and just say, hey, you know, Jerry Fleck or Adele should have said, like, look, you know, we get it.

You really should have not left the set, you know, with that uniform. But it's not like it's a top secret uniform that now she revealed to the general public. And they're like, what is that? That's a new, you know, Starfleet. No, it's not something that's not known. People have been seeing that uniform for a while now. Also, those uniforms, it took time to get in and out of them. So I can imagine in an urgent situation, you just want to go.

because there's layers and getting it on button and zipped and then the underlayer and you know there's multiple three four layers of things you put on it so they so they look very flat and yeah i can it makes total sense oh that's too bad it is bad and if for some chance you are listening who we are talking about now i'm so sorry that i forgot your name it's been so long now i'm going oh my gosh like there's a few people like carry remember carry tall carry like i remember their name was in one shot today after Chicote's punch, Kerry was in the background there. Yeah, Carrie is actually sitting at the table with the gal that I'm talking about. When Neelix is talking about the flowers, you know, that the whole analogy were two bucks in a mood. Carrie's back there sitting across from the lady who was released. And, yeah, so most of those names I do still remember, but there's a couple like hers. I completely forgot, but I just, I feel bad for that that even happened to her. So, you know, if it was my call, I would have kept her on.

No kidding, mine too. Well, I felt bad for Neelix. I felt bad. I thought the best line in the episode was get that cheese to sick bay. Oh, my God. That's hilarious. Tom's Holladeck program, Sandrine's, but no Tom. Again, I made a note, the emotional weight is just out of whack.

It's all on our guest stars. I said, it's sad when the cheese story is more interesting than the marquee story. I noticed that Tuvok asked, he asked, please. When he said to Garron, can you try to open that door? He said, can you please go? And I thought that was a nice, subtle change. It was after his conversation with Nelix. And I thought that was a nice change.

And I made a note, all that liquid nitrogen, so all the smoke that was in, as things were exploding in the cargo bay, in the cargo bay, there was a ton of smoke, right? And it was supposed to be super hot, and everyone's supposed to be sweating. And I do remember scenes like that when I was in the, in episodes that I had some thing to do in, unlike this one. But I noticed that when you're supposed to be hot and sweaty, but they're using that smoke, what they use is liquid nitrogen. So it's a big can of liquid nitrogen, which is freezing cold.

It's not hot at all. It's not hot at all. And when they turn it on like that and they fill up a set, it's freezing in there. Like, I think liquid nitrogen is like minus 150 degrees and you feel the smoke on you. Like, it can burn. It's like dry ice or, you know, it's all the same thing. It's at that super cold temperature that it will hurt you if you get too much of it on your body. But you feel freezing.

So I was just thinking about everybody that's supposed to be sweaty and the ship is so hot. And then they're blowing that smoke. I'm like, they must have been freezing. Yeah, yeah, that's true. So meanwhile, while the liquid nitrogen is freezing up that cargo bay, The rest of us on the bridge are now, the makeup artists have put all this liquid on us and made our hair come down to make us look like we're sweating like crazy. And I remember filming that scene.

And I remember thinking, God, this is really difficult. Because as an actor, it's tough to play heat. When there's really not that type of excruciating, life-threatening heat, it's difficult to play it. It really is. Like, to play really hot is like, it's not an emotion. it's not it's not an objective you know if you're talking in after terms right you know what is your objective what is the mood what is the pacing of this what is the of this yeah obviously it's slower because we're all you know kind of like a lethargic from the heat but it's very difficult i think

to play heat i don't know what what you did whenever you played a hot environment or if you recall what you did i don't know i mean yeah playing kind of reacting to temperatures that aren't real uh is is like reacting to something of visual effects monster you can't see. You know, it can be, you just have to use your imagination. Yeah. I did feel like that scene on the bridge where everybody's sweating and lethargic and

low energy and going slower, like you said, even though that all makes sense for heat, it was a bummer of a way to get to our big climactic scenes of the episode. Because you're at the climactic, dramatic moment where everyone can die and they're all just like,

oh, yeah. It's like, this is supposed to be our exciting climax? Everybody's just, I'm so hot. I struggle with these last couple episodes we've seen. Jitrell and this one, I just, from a writers and dramaturgical sort of way, I'm like, they're kind of a mess. Like, there's moments that are good, but, like, they're just poorly thought out, in my opinion. Well, I highly urge you to stick.

with this and not quit after this episode. I am not going to quit. I am not. I know season two is coming up and I know there's good stuff ahead. All our merch already says the Delta Flyers. I don't want to go to the Delta Flyer, the singular because that was not. No, I guess I'm disappointed because I, you know, in my memory, which I have a horrible memories, we all know, but in my memory, I'm like, oh, we made, you know, a lot of really

good episodes. And to see a couple in a row that I'm just like, oh. Yeah. It's like, wah, wamp. Yeah. Yeah. I get you. It's anticlimactic.

Yeah. Do you have any more notes on that or are we good to wrap this puppy up? I think I'm good with the recap. Okay. Do you want to talk about the theme or the big idea? Oh, yes, yes. Let's talk about the underlying message. So as everyone knows, we try to talk about the lesson learned or the hidden message, the underlying theme of each episode.

So we'll start with Robbie. And his take on that. Yeah, I think for me, it was in spite of our differences with people who were nothing like us, that we can all learn something from each other, that Tuvok learned something about himself from having to deal with the maquis and teach them. And the maquis learned something from Tuvok. They both kind of learned a lesson, and they both kind of saw the things they had in common. I really feel like the message here is sometimes you have to adapt by being flexible.

And a lot of times people feel that if there are certain rules or regulations set in place, flexibility is then weakness or flexibility is no longer following protocol. But sometimes flexibility is what you need in order to, you know, get past a certain situation. You can't be so rigid all the time, right? So it's rules shouldn't always be black. and white, there should always be a realization by both parties that there is a gray area and to accept that if you are flexible and bend, that you are still, you still are strong. It's like a bamboo, you know, from like an old Kung Fu master saying, you must be like

a bamboo, flexible, but still strong. You know, I feel this is, this is the message, you know, and, and that's something that's something that a lot of people don't get. You know, there's a lot of people that are out there that are like, okay, this is protocol, we follow to a T, and If we err, if we go off to the right or left, then then this is not the way we do it. You know, I mean, you could talk about what happened in Minneapolis, you know, and I know that the knee to the back of the, the perpetrator's neck is something that they actually teach to restrain somebody from, you know, trying to kill you as a police officer. I get that.

But you've got to be flexible in the situation. If somebody says, I cannot breathe, they are telling you that for a reason, you know what I'm saying? So the flexibility there, there was no flexibility. You know, that officer, that officer Chauvin was completely rigid and, and Vulcan about it, all the way. He didn't do, he didn't take a second to realize that he needed to be a human being and put in a little bit of flexibility there. And if we had that, we would be, we would not be in a situation we are now, which is rioting and everything going crazy. The world looks like it's ending right now.

And so this is a great episode in that the message is important. Yeah, it's a bit of a throwaway in that. yes, these ancillary characters that we never see again in seven years are the focus, which is sort of like, huh? It's a head scratcher, but the message is what's most important. Yeah, yeah. Got to learn to be flexible. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So thank you so much, everybody, for listening in. Thanks for joining us on this week's podcast adventure. Join us next week when we review the 37s. Yeah. Season two. Season two.

All right. I don't know.