The Delta Flyers - Necessary Evil

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode, Necessary Evil, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Armin Shimerman, & guest host James L. Conway.Necessary Evil: An attempt on Quark's life leads Odo to reopen an old investigation, and to remember his experiences from five years previously, when he and Kira were on the station during the Cardassian occupation; Kira is a suspect.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Heidi Mclellan, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Tom Paynter, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Nicole Anne Toma, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Rob Traverse, Matt Norris, Stephanie Lee, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, Sam Mikelic, & Thomas IrvinOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Luz R., Dannielle Kaminski, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Courtney Lucas, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Jenna Appleton, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Kayla Knilans, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Daniel O’Brien, Danie Crofoot, Steven Lugo, Gemma Laidler, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Timothy McMichens, & Kevin HarlowAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Patrick Carlin, Ann Harding,Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Carol Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, Mike Schaible, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Rob Johnson, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Kevin Hooker, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, John Richardson, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Clark Ochikubo, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Tim Neumark, Will Forg, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, James Lyszczek, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lisa Gunn, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Linda Daireaux, Mars DeVore, Robert Allen Stiffler, Jennifer Vaughn, Walkerius Logos, PJ Pick, Preston Meyer, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Andrew Cook-Feltz, Karen Galleski, Constance, Loretta Reyes, Kyle Freund, Cassandra Girard, Francesca Garibaldi, Andrea Wilson, Carol Ramsey, Willow Whitcomb, Jadzia Mehari, Mo, Leslie Ford, & Travis CamposThank you for your support!“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to the Delta Flyers as we journey through the wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we journey through episodes of Star Trek, Deep Space Nine. Your hosts along this journey are Terry Farrell, our calm and collected science officer, Armin Sherman, our excitable yet beloved business person. Garrett Wong, our Forever Ensign, and of course, Robert Duncan McNeil, my favorite and your favorite helmsman. Remember, you can go to our Patreon page, patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers, and sign up to become a patron to get all that wonderful bonus perterio. Today we have Armin and a very, very special guest, our good friend and very talented director, none other than Mr. James Conway, who we know is Jim Conway, but now he's. prefers to be known as Jamie Conway.

Yes, I asked him as we warmed up because Jamie and I have worked with a lot of similar people. They always call him Jamie. I always call him Jim. Armand, what did you call him on DS9? Mr. Director, I think I called him. In my mind, I've always think of him as James.

But I will happily call him Jim today. But I won't go as far as Jamie. Okay. I'm going to call him Mr. Conway in honor of Avery Brooks, our beloved captain. Yes. In fact, it's a good question. Jim, what did Avery call you? Do you remember?

We called him Mr. Brooks. He called me Mr. Shimmerman. Did he call you Mr. Conway? Did he do that? You know, I don't remember. I did so many episodes. I don't remember what he called me. It was always very pleasant.

It probably changed a bit. But I don't remember. Isn't that funny? It's a long time ago. Yeah. We tried to go to. to the very formal Mr. Shimmerman and Mr. McNeil. But it's just hard for us.

We're just not that sophisticated. So we'll do our best today. Okay. I want to, again, compliment Jim on what an incredible great job he did on this episode. The lighting, the camera work, the performances that you got, they are just superb. I had, forgive me, Jim, I had sort of forgotten about this episode. and it is now absolutely one of my favorites. It's just great work by you, just incredible work.

Thank you. It really is a step up on the series, Jim, because Garrett and I are watching this for the very first time. And so we're watching this in sequence, and it feels like technically a real step forward for the show in terms of the performances and the characters. It was phenomenal. It was just really beautiful to watch.

and really elevated the show, it took a big step forward for sure. Michael Piller, one of the executive producers, who was the showrunner on the show. When we sat down with the script, said, I want this to feel like a film noir, Billy Wilder, Howard Hawks, picture. And in those movies, they talk very quickly. And, you know, Nora Lighting, and I talked to Marvin Rush, our DP. He was all in. So, you know, we went to trouble to make the lighting look more film noir.

And I kept bugging the actors to talk faster. And it's hard. when you have a mouth full of teeth, yes. It's amazing to me that you can do it with all those teeth. But they did, and I think Armand's performance is fantastic. And it was so bogartish in that, especially the opening scene with her. I just love this. I mean, I have a question.

When Jim was telling you, Armand, faster, faster, at one point, did you feel this is way too in your head, did you at the onset or did you trust that, okay, let's do it? Do you recall? I don't, I didn't complain, so I must have trusted. it. And the proof is in the pudding that the performance, the scenes where all of that is taking place where that style of acting is happening, it just works gangbusters in this particular episode. But perhaps, you know, we weren't always given scripts with enough leeway to get the lines down so that they're in your, what's it called, in your subconscious almost.

No, long-term memory in your long-term, which then you can rattle off the words as quickly as possible because they're just there. They're just there. Yeah. But if we had to do extra takes to get what we got, well worth it, well, we're. Well, Armin's performance is generally very quick anyway. That's right. I tend to talk quickly. Mostly it was about taking out the pauses as opposed to speeding up the words.

Got it. And I probably did think Bogart. I probably did. Certainly while I was watching again this past week, I thought, oh, yeah. That's a Bogart performance. So maybe you mentioned that to me, and maybe that was the inspiration. But thank you. The answer is thank you.

I would never have said his Bogart's name because that's not fair to an actor. But it is. Okay. But you just naturally went there. Yeah. Yeah. And I have to say, because Jim and I live close to each other now. We both live near in Utah, in the mountains, and we've gotten together quite a bit.

We play tennis together. I love spending time with Jim. And the stories that Jim has shared with me about directing, whether it was movies or TV shows or whatever, every time he tells the story, he's got such respect and reverence for the acting process. You always say that to me, Jim, which I really believe and appreciate. You really keep in mind, it's very important to you to support the actors in the best way that you can and you're very conscious of that. So that showed a lot in this episode. And he's also very calm on a set. Absolutely.

He's just very calm. Everything is going to be fine, not to worry. I'll take care of it. And that's very much appreciated by the actors on the set as well. Good to hear. Before we get any further into the episode, I want to take a moment to mention some birthdays of our Patreon supporters. We've got Ryan Benoit on June 17th.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Ryan. Happy birthday, Ryan. And we also have Penny Lille, June 22nd. That's our birthday. So happy birthday to Penny. Happy birthday, Penny. Happy birthday, Penny.

And if you want your birthday, shout it out, check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers become a patron. You can hear this podcast, ad free. Let's start with our Jim, we start with our poetry synopsis. When when Gary first started this podcast, we'd try to start out with a quick summary of the plot. And it just, we couldn't do a short summary. It was never quick. It was meandering. It was just the worst synopsis ever. So then we said, hey, let's try to like concise and let's do poetry. So Robbie does a Limerick, I do haiku. So here we go.

Here is my poetry synopsis for Necessary Evil. Quark's sneaky dealings leave him dead. on the floor. An old cold case Odo will not stand for. It takes him back to the past. Kira's honest at last. She hopes Odo will trust her once more. Very nice. Wow. There you go. Yeah. That's a short synopsis, Jim. It is a good one too. Yes. And I think trust is actually a very good word. Thank you for using it. Yes. Okay. And for even more concise, the haiku. My haiku for Necessary Evil. Paid to find a box. Quark gets zapped for opening. Ira withheld truth.

Mm-hmm. Nice, very concise. Thank you. Very concise. Thank you. And I am the pedant here, Jim. So I do etymology, actually. I don't do poems.

That's right. Let's hear it. So from the OED, necessary, first word. from the Latin necessarius, which means needful, first used in the 16th and early 17th century, used frequently in the sense of useful, necessary is more useful in the 15th and 16th century. The word evil, it's from old English,

Ivel meaning exceedingly, exceeding due measure or overstepping proper limits. I think that this episode has a lot to do with that. The form evil appears in Middle English first as a West Midland and then Kentish word, but is by the 15th century had become general in the English language. Interesting. I'd like that it's useful, that the reference is useful as opposed to absolutely needed. Exactly.

It's just useful. It's not valued anymore or less than that. So, yeah, that's interesting. it's almost forgive me for being equally pedantic but uh it's almost an oxymoron it's almost an opposite but it isn't an opposite oh yeah interesting interesting but it is a juxtaposition of two words that don't necessarily go together right but i mean it is a phrase that people have used though right as a necessary evil that someone believes must be done or accepted because it is necessary to achieve a better outcome so i just want to throw that there in case we have people that are not

English is not their first language. Maybe they need to know, you know, together, what does it mean? And Jim, you know, it's been interesting with, like, what Garrett's explaining about the interpretation and Armand's etymology, like, looking at these roots, we found really intelligent titles, like titles that you might dismiss or forget about quickly at first glance, but when you start looking a little deeper, the titles are just so perfect for these episodes. They really are. The writers were very dedicated to doing everything they could to make the show

be right and important and thoughtful. Yeah. It was never done quickly or haphazardly. It was a lot of thought was put into everything. Absolutely. Speaking of thought, put into everything. Let's talk about the writers, directors, and the guest owners. Okay, written by Peter Allen Fields, one of the regular, a very popular writer in this first

couple seasons. He wrote, I would say, the majority of the scripts at this point, it feels like, or at least recently, his name has popped up a lot. Right. Do you remember working with Peter Allen Fields on this at all? You know, I don't. I spend my time with Michael Pillar and not Peter, so I'm sure I met him, but I spent most of my time with Michael. Okay.

And I can say the same. I'm sure I met him, but I had no memory. God, I see his name everywhere, but I don't. They were very intent upon keeping the actors and the writers separated. in the first couple of seasons. Yeah. Well, I read something on the interwebs that he also wrote on Colombo a lot.

Oh, interesting. So the murder mystery is in his wheelhouse, yeah. Yeah, that one. There is a moment that is very Colombo-esque. Is it the Odo moment where he says one more thing like that? So the one, so there are an all part of the routine investigation. So there is, there's dialogue that was used in Colombo that was used here. because Peter Allen Fields wrote for Colombo.

So that was his reference. Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Well, written by Peter Allen Fields, directed by our good friend, Jamie Conway, who was with us. I can't believe it. I can't believe it.

So let's talk about the guest stars. The one that I remember the most, besides the recurring guest stars, is Catherine Moffat, who played Patrick. And what a sweetheart. And certainly one of the, of my favorite scenes that I've, of this sequence of shows that I've been watching, is the scene that I did with Catherine at the very top of the episode. Oh, great scene. Thank you.

Thank you, Jim Conway, for getting us to that place. She was, she was fantastic. She was just exactly what the doctor ordered, femme fatal. Yeah. She was great. Do you remember anything about her casting of her, Jim? I don't. I was, when I saw her, I was trying to remember. And she would have come in to read. Yeah. You heard it, but I don't remember. The other guest stars, round off this episode. Of course, Max Gredenchik is Rom. Mark Alimaux is Gold's Cat. And of course, Robert McKenzie as Trasco, the Bajoran assassin, I suppose, his title. I call him the handsome muscle guy in my house. The handsome or Robbie, the handsome heavy. Maybe you can say it that way. Okay. And there's another, I don't know if it was a guest star or co-star. There is an actor playing

a Bajoran guard. Oh, the one that gets stabbed at the, Yeah, yeah. Kevin Brofie is who's credited in that role. Yeah, Kevin. Yeah, let's just say right off the bat. This very opening scene, Jim Conway sets the tone for the film noir. It's a stormy, dark night, and they're at Vatrick. You know how I remember her name, or the last name, Hattrick in hockey.

So Vatrick. There you go. Yeah, otherwise I want to say Votrich, but Vatrick, Pauara is the name of the lady, the Bajoran lady, that is having this conversation. with Cork and that she's talking about how, you know, she didn't kill him. And we're not sure who she's talking about. But we, she talks about how a lot of people thought it was her, especially the shapeshifter, referring to Odo. And Cork says it's a long time ago. But we do find out that she's trying to hire Cork to go in to this area where her deceased husband used to have a,

I guess, an alchemy store. Yeah, chemistry shop. Yeah, chemistry shop. And she wants, a box to be retrieved from a panel in the wall she tells like hidden in the wall it's hidden some secret spot yes this scene was phenomenal and by the way at the very end before you leave there armin i loved the little like rubbing of your ear was amazing the little ear thing yeah yeah but you've seen the dialogue the dialogue is snappy it's going back and forth it's wonderful and it reminds me a lot, Roby, of a Voyager episode. Ex post facto. Very similar. Also film noir black and white

where Tom Paris is considered a murderer and so it's very similar in tone. Do you remember this first scene is critical to start off the style and all of that? Do you remember shooting this either Jim or Armand? What are your memories of it? Oh, I remember

it vividly, yeah, because it's sort of set up the whole character of the episode, the lighting performance, the mystery of it. And it was a very unique cold open for this show. Yes. Yes. You come into the middle of it. Yeah. It's a big setup. There's no normal opening. It's just, boom, there you are. And it's a slightly different tact for Quark. All of a sudden, he has this suavete. Is that the right word? Yes, debonair. Devinere. Deviner. Slare. And which it was always, it was always a joy. when they gave me a color that I hadn't been given before.

And it was just great fun. As I said before, she was just wonderful to work with. And Jim has reminded me that, you know, he was pushing us to talk faster and faster, which works gangbusters. Yeah. And she is phenomenal. Did you have to, Jim, did you have to work with her to get that style? Or was that something she got instinctually?

As I remember, it's what she brought to the audition. And that's how she got the role. She disembodied what we're looking for so perfectly. Yeah, absolutely. At the very end of this scene, though, after Quark leaves says he's going to go get the thing in the wall, this mystery, handsome muscle killer guy walks in. So we know that she hasn't been completely transparent with Quark.

Quark could be in trouble here is what I got from that moment. And yeah. I would love to know from Jim about, I mean, I love to. this character who floats in and out of the episode and and and we know there's something nefarious about him um i don't think he's ever given a name is he no no not out loud in the episode on on paper he was given a name but you know of course because he has to know when he's yeah i think he's actually named once he's dead uh at that point i think oh yeah i think rene mentions it who what his name was who it is oh you know um prazko

is the name on paper. Okay. I just, I, I love that thread in the, in the tapestry that, that it's just the silent person that we, we want to know more about and what is he doing, and why is he doing it, and how is he connected to the mystery? Just, kudos to the writers for putting that in the script. Well, kudos to the writers for this first station log, because it's Odo's first station lock and it's got comedy in it. It's hilarious. It is the only, there's only two episodes in all

of D-Space 9 where Odo has a station log. Really? This is one of them, yes. That's two more than me. Park never got one. No, I'm sorry. That is just not fair. I'm sorry. Well, Odo says in his security log that Cisco has asked him to start giving these, these law enforcement recordings, daily logs of what's going on. and it's very sarcastic and dry and very funny and Renee delivered all of this beautifully he doesn't understand humans I need for records I need for records well that's the funny part of it

it's a commentary on how many records we keep as human beings on this planet which is and he says like they have so many records that they have to find ways of condensing them so that they're not overrun by files and records which is so true of Definitely the United States of American. I'm going to say, in general, the world. Just modern society, computers and...

I call this one of the Spock moments. This is the alien commenting upon humanity. Yeah. Every now and then, Star Trek writers will write that in for a character. And I savor those because they're really quite wonderful. Yeah, they are wonderful. Great observation. He also is very insulted that he feels like Cisco doesn't think his memory is good enough.

So he's pleased to put his voice to the official record of the day. And his whole log basically is summarized in everything's under control, end log. Very funny. Very funny. Jim has shot Renee outside of his office. And that is a beautiful shot. That reminded me, what's the painter's name, American painter who did the Winslow?

The cafe. Norman Rockwell? Norman Rockwell? Edward Hopper. Yes, Edward Hopper. It reminded me of an Edward Hopper painting. It was just gorgeous, gorgeous. The way you framed it, the way it was lit,

whatever Renee was thinking at the time. Just a gorgeous shot. Gorgeous. Yes, I remember it was actually a crane shot in there. So it was high above and we saw the walkway above and then boomed down to frame Renee in the doorway. Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful.

opening and you had the opportunity a number of times with some of these extended logs or voiceovers to shoot more cinematically instead of just getting right into dialogue you were able to establish the space in the context to establish later on you're going to see this fence that divides the place and the beautiful work there too um so yeah but the the station is shutting down we see everybody's it's pretty empty and as the lights all go out cork and rom sneak out uh sneak up to a shop door. Basically, Rom is bragging about how he can deseal this lock on the door in less than 10 seconds. He's really good at this. And he reveals that he has done it at quarks and quarks is all of a sudden very concerned about this, thinks he's been stealing things. And he does say

that Nag, Rom says that Nag has made this deceler tool for him. So that's a great little reference to Nag that how clever he is. What I love about this scene is, this is, this is the first time that you see that Rom is smarter than he lets on. He's actually quite resourceful. And the magnusite, I took the liberty of bringing along these drops that I used to, I mean, good Lord. This guy is literally, he's Ferengi McGiver. That's what he is. Yes, he is. And going back to your poem about trust, this is the first example of this in this episode is that Warc has an opinion of Rom and his intelligence and what he can and cannot do. And the fact that he's been breaking into Guarck's personal vault,

this is where he begins to distrust, not for the first time, but to distrust Rom and is infuriated, I think, that his brother could be betraying him. And this is a show about betrayal. Yeah, yeah. I love that, yeah, yeah, I didn't catch that theme being reinforced here in quite as clear a way as you just put it, but it's great to sort of track that because trust and truth and betrayal.

And betrayals, those are big themes in the episode for sure. So I love at the end of the scene, though, after Rahm does all this, he breaks in, he does the drops. What does Quark say? He says, don't touch it. Don't touch anything ever, ever again. It's very funny. If only that had happened. If only that had happened.

we have a quick time cut we see the box this box that they found being cut open lasered open inside of it is just a piece of paper and they can't really read it quark thinks it's eight bajoran names is what he's suspecting once we're on to go grab an imager and take a picture before they reseal it and as soon as rom leaves muscle handsome killer guy comes in super dark and shadowy here excuse me i'm going to stop you again you've always And I'm going to praise, Jim. It's a lovely shot that starts on the box, then goes to the fingers, and then eventually ends up in a two shot with Max and I.

I really like that a lot. So kudos again to you, Jim. Thank you. Yeah. A great time cut there. Because you're going from the same two people to the same two people in Xine. How are you going to tell that story? And it's a beautiful, very elegant way to do it.

So I liked the shot where the muscle handsome killer guy comes in and he's standing. You cannot make out his face. It is that high contrast of film noir that is just stunning and theatrical and just beautiful. Robbie, I'm sorry. I'm just like your your obsession with muscle handsome killer guy is making me laugh because it's similar to the episode of the C. where I was obsessing over Stephen Weber saying handsome Stephen Weber comes into the scene. I'm obsessing over Stephen and now you're obsessing over yes very handsome muscle are you saying he's muscular or he's the muscle what are you trying to say he seemed like a he seemed like the

the you know I don't see it okay all right okay I'll let you have it that was what that was my first impression okay all right well when when handsome muscle killer guy comes in in the shadows he pulls out, he pulls out a gun, demands the paper, cork hands it over, and then he shoots quark and quark goes flying across the room. What, okay, Robbie? And again, we had a very noirish exchange between the two of us, which again was delicious to watch.

And I think I remember, I cannot swear to it, and maybe Jim can help me out. I think I remember that I did that stunt. I think they put me in a harness and they pulled me back. And I do notice in the shot, I apologize, Jim, 25 years later, but I bounced. I can see myself bouncing, which I probably, if you've gotten a real stunt person, I think they would have done it correctly. But I do remember, they say, you're not going to get hurt, but I do remember being

back by that. I think that's the, this is the... It is a shocking moment when he shoots because he... he's shooting a series regular in a place where you wouldn't expect he would ever survive. So the fact that he's shot, you know, right in the chest like that is a really wonderful, shocking moment. I do feel that the phasers and other energy weapons used on D-Space 9 are more powerful than the ones we used on point.

Because no one flew back that far. Oh, my gosh. And again, Robbie, the stuff in prior episodes, when Cardassians are shot or anyone, they do this jump back and fly back thing that you always comment about it has has a technique for the stunt guys get a shot where they kind of hop in the air and then they land in the same spot yeah they just oh my goodness but this was a this was a powerful like Jim like you said it's a series regular getting shot and the fact that he flies across the room and then when we see his face he's lying there with his eyes wide open yeah he looks dead he looks dead it's shocking yeah that's just my acting

I look dead half the time anyway. It doesn't make any difference. Your acting always shocks me, Armand. Dead acting. I'm really good at dead acting. Rob does come in to find that his brother has been shot. And I love the end. Rob's yelling, please, somebody help.

My brother's been killed. And so we now have a piece of dialogue also reaffirming that we have a death here. And I think that the extent of the flyback is to definitely. tell people this is not a wound this is a moral moral shot and and whoever decided to do that i think that that's part of the telling of the story that that quark should by all opinions of the dead should be dead it was the right choice very effective that flyback made it it sold it even more absolutely well uh we have a time cut quarks uh we're still a quarks in this the emergency team led by Bashir's trying to save cork. He's very badly injured. He uses some kind of like paddle to jolt you.

And I just want to comment, Armin, you had to do all the acting. They didn't really jolt you in real life. So from a laying down position, you had to lift your body up, fake the jolt. I just want to compliment you on your ab strength. You must have been going to the gym working out because that was a nice sit-up that you did there. Thank you. Yes. And why? Why? Why? Why is Bashir yelling? Did he want to make a note about that? I mean, Quartz is not the size. He would think that the size of Quarks is the inside of a Walmart.

It's not that big. It's fairly cozy. Did you make a note or anything? You just had the same thought. I didn't have that thought. No, I actually very much appreciate that Bashir is yelling. Okay. Actually, and I will tell you why in a moment.

And maybe Jim can elaborate more on one of my. about to say um this is why i appreciated uh sid or bashir uh yelling is that he seems genuinely concerned about saving his patient's life okay and i he was a little panicked about that yeah and it's triage he's trying to do his best to to to make sure that the patient doesn't die patient happens to be me but um but he's he's just that and then forgive me and this is just my 25 years old still fighting these battles um the other people uh don't seem all that concerned whether it works going to die or not they're already on to trying to assault yeah there's a there's a pharyngey on the floor but that's okay just don't step on and that's all

but um so i was very appreciative of sid being giving us all at that moment whether that's Jim's direction, whether that's Cidst's choice, I don't know. But at least someone was concerned about Quark's life. Yes, it seems everyone else was just earmarking your organs for donation. That's true. I'm not quite sure that the affection you had for yourself, Armin, was shared by the rest of the people on the space station. I think you.

Well put. Well put. Yes, Quark had a great affection for himself. He did. Well, Bashir and the team wheel him off to surgery. And when they picked Armin up and they sort of carried him over there. Yeah. Do you remember that where you thinking, don't drop me? Don't drop me. Yes, I did. Don't drop me. Don't drop me. I think I may have said that on the set. Don't drop me. Don't drop me. But they take him off. And then Odo begins to play bad cop to what we see is Cisco's good cop here. So,

classic film noir kind of moment, detective work. But Odo is really pushing Rom very hard to give him some information. At first, at first, I think, doesn't Rom just say, oh, it was a burglary gone wrong or something like that? And then he starts to admit that there's more to it.

And I love when he brings up the fact that he'll inherit the bar. And so he's a suspect. And suddenly it gets Rob thinking, which carries the rest of the episode for him. It's so funny in every regard. And the subtlety he plays all that with is just so funny. So great. Yeah, he's very, very funny.

But he does tell them that there's a list, some kind of list that the man shot quark over the list, that there were eight Bajoran names. It was in a box that they found. And Odo's suspicious, you found a box? He goes, well, in a manner of speaking. found it. And he takes him. Odo and Rom start walking the promenade. And Ram reveals that someone on Bejor had hired Cork to get this box where it was hidden years ago when the Cardassians ran the place. It was an old chemist shop. And that's when Odo freezes. Clearly, this means something

to him. And the first of a number of beautiful transitions here, we're out in the in the promenade with Odo as he stops, clearly affected by this reference to the, yeah, the memory. And then as he turns and the door opens, the light shifts from an orange to a blue. And yeah, it was like a red, red orange sort of wash light. And then it goes to this beautiful blue light. And we're in a memory in the chemistry shop. Super cool transition, Jim. Super cool.

The art department did a great job of turning the promenade into the old promenade and the fence and the marked lighting and the mist and the fog. I mean, it was really just beautifully done. Yeah. I liked Odo's his flashback outfit, his civilian clothes. I thought Renee looked great in that casual style. I like to look on him. Yes. But DuCott is sitting in this chemist shop.

On the floor. Why that, Jim? Why is he on the floor? I don't remember. I mean, I always pre-blocked everything and had to be a reason for it. Maybe Mark's idea to sit like that. I don't remember. I thought he was sitting at the desk.

No, he was behind the desk. on the floor, if I remember correctly. Maybe I've got it wrong, but that's what I think. He's behind the desk. He had his feet up on something or stretched out. He was very casual. It's possible he's got his feet on the desk, and I saw it wrong or remember it wrong. Yeah.

But it was a strange, it was a strange position for Descartes. So, whosovoysm it was, added to the noirishness of the episode. Yeah. It was a good choice. It seemed like a bit of a cocky position to be in a very self-assured or unexpectedly kind of casual. And he was drinking from a mug or a cup or something. Right. And there's a dead body right behind him.

So it is great juxtaposition. Yes. Yes, exactly. DuCott mentions this Cardassian neck trick that Odo used to do, which was just so painful for me, that part of the story. when we've learned already in the series that Odo was sort of used as a circus trick, you know, by his, by his, the scientists that were studying him. And he was taken around to sort of perform for people. And it was just painful to hear, for me to hear Dukot sort of putting him in that role,

that role that he hated so much, you know. And you could see Renee's performance that he would, he looked to the ground. It was just, it was beautifully emotional there. I thought it was great. I have to be watching this episode. It made me really miss Renee. It really brought light, you know, his passing and how much, how wonderful he was to be around and then how talented he was in the performer.

Yeah. I can echo that. I'm looking this way because I have a picture of the two of us right here on the side. And there isn't a day he goes by that I don't think the same thing, Jim. Yeah. I do like that line there, Robbie. In that one exchange where Descartes says, have you ever seen a dead man before? And Odo says, yes, in your minds.

And Descartes just brushes that up. Oh, those are casualty. Those are nothing. Those always happen. But Jorans always die in the minds. That's just the way it is this is important. This is murder. You know, so I just, the writers also, I think, did a really, the writer did a great job

in this episode. Yeah, Descartes shows him the dead body on the floor. And Duccott says he wants Odo to investigate. And at first, Odo's a little reluctant for this. He's like, you know, doesn't feel, you know, qualified, I guess. But I love as an audience, as a fresh audience member that I am, that we're seeing the beginnings of Odo's, you know, what he ends up doing on the show. This is his Odo's origin story. Yeah, this is right.

It's right. It really is. And it's wonderful because we don't know much about shapeshifters at all. So giving this little, this little tidbit. is of information from this episode is wonderful yeah and one of the additional things to his origin story is that he says he walked out of the lap that he just said enough enough is enough and i'm out and he and there's a line says i walked out um so obviously he had the freedom to do that and felt he could stand on his own two legs and just left yeah yeah yeah that's great information

and also the information that he's chosen because he's a neutral party at this moment in time you know He's not Cardassian. He's not Bajoran. Right. So Dukot wants him to be an investigator because the Bajaran's will trust that he's neutral. He's not picking sides here. So that's a, that's an interesting quality to. Don't they also talk about how he's already been a bit of a, I guess, an ombudsman in terms of hearing people's disputes about, you know, small things, daily life things, but not murder.

And blankets and, yeah, blankets and, yeah, rations and allocations. He's been the guy that people have. gone to so we know that he's about justice already yeah so to dig in the weeds a little are we to assume that the lab where odo has been kept is on the station otherwise i'm i wonder how he got to the station because if he was in the lab on on bejure why why does how does he get to the station why is he doing all these things you've just mentioned garrett unless perhaps the laboratory that he was being investigated in on uh was in the station and he just walks out and somehow gets

a habitat somewhere where he can live. I guess he can live, he doesn't need a habitat actually. He's got a bucket. He's got a bucket. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it's interesting because I always imagined he was on Bayjor. When that happened, yeah. Yeah, when that happened, but then how does he get to the station?

Yeah, yeah. What brings him to the refining factory that is a yeah, our deep space number. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. I think it's really, delicious that it's Galducat that is the person responsible for Odo becoming the security chief. I mean, he is the first impetus for that to happen.

The fact that it's Galducat who causes Odo to become constable Odo, I find delicious. Just, you know, of all the people in our world, that it's Gulldecott, that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, very unexpected. Well, Galdicott shows him into this closet, this temporary office. And there's Vatrick. Mrs. Vatrick is there. Odo wants to know what she knows about this. She says that her husband was having an affair recently. And Odo asks, he interrupts and says, well, it's interesting. You know, your husband just died and you haven't cried. And she starts to protest that he says, he's an observer. And he can see that her lower epidermis isn't swollen at all. And it would be if she had been crying. So that's a great detail about Odo that he's an observer and he can pick up things. It reminds me of the mentalist. Remember that series of the mental suit? He would touch everything that no one else saw. That's what Odo's doing here. He's pulling a little mentalist bit. Well, when I read this part of the script, I started thinking about I have these bags, this puffiness underneath my eyes. So I feel like at night when I'm sleeping, I must be crying a lot.

I wake up and they're all... Yeah. That's what you must be crying in your sleep. I cry in my sleep, yes. So to be a real nerd here, yes. One of the things that one subconsciously must think is that Odo is constantly looking at things

and remembering what they look like because otherwise, how else does he change into them? Correct. How does he replicate everything so well unless he's got fine details about what everything looks like? Yeah, his observation skills are off the charts.

Off the charts, exactly. Right. Yeah. But Odo does say, okay, well, tell me what you think happened here, Mrs. Vatrick. And she says, well, I think my husband broke it off with this other woman, and she was upset, and so she killed him. Yeah. And then Odo asked, you know, who is this woman? She says, I don't know her name, but I can point her out.

And off we go to the Bajoran side of the promenade. with a great this is the first crane shot that i noticed that was super cool because it's establishing we're on the promenade we see the wide shot but the crane is moving forward yeah it comes up and over the wall i guess that's the first time that we see this sort of division of cardassian side and bajoran housing it was great it was beautiful right paula it reveals that she and her husband as as this crane shot moves forward she reveals to odo that she's uh they have private quarters that they don't sleep with all the other Bajorans. And then she sees the other woman, she points,

and we cut around, it's Kira. In a ponytail. In a ponytail. A ponytail, kira. Yeah. Long-haired Kira-N-Ris. How was that to film those promenade scenes? Because you had to film both the memory promenade

and the current promenade. So how did you deal with that? How did you do you remember? We shot all of one, we shot all, I think, the regular first and all the memory one second. It was all at the same time. So did you on the same day have to shoot both things?

Or did you shoot? No, good. We shot all the scenes that were the past at one time and then all the present scenes, which was first. But that's how we did. We didn't go back and forth. It would have been too much work. Oh, yeah, that would have been. And did you have much time to be shown what the old deep space nine look like

so that you could figure out what shots you wanted to use, how you were going to use the scenery? because obviously they had to come up with that. They had to design that. I had floor plants, so I knew where everything would be. I knew where the fence would be, and I knew how much space there would be. I don't think the set was ready until we got there,

but I was able to visualize what was going to be there and plan my shots accordingly. Nice. Well, it's revealed there's Kira Norese, and Ms. Vatrick is blaming her for this murder. I think the next scene is in the present time, Kira says that they haven't found. found who, she tells Odo that they haven't found who shot. And it's a great snap. It's a great

snap from her sitting there eating in the bony tail to her in her uniform showing up in the present day promenade. It, you know, it takes you by surprise as it's supposed to. Yeah. And it's a lovely snap from one to the other. Yeah, it was great. I think it was also a play on these two little kids being miserable in the old and there's two little kids being just playing and stuff when we come back so that's i love it i did a little a little something there that people will either catch or not but there was a definite mood swing between the way the kids were treated in the past and in the future and of course the lighting is radically different you you go from this noirish old tarik nor that's the word i couldn't do to terak nor to um to deep space nine i don't think we've

got into it yet, but the best transition in this entire episode, Jim, was when you use laughter to transition from old too fast. Oh, that was so good. We're not there yet, right? That's later. That's a little later. Okay. But it just points out there's a ton of great transitions. And Jim, I just want to comment on the kid thing. I noticed the kid thing, but I didn't put together that that was intentional in a way to show the contrast. But I noticed the kids both times in the in the separate worlds what a what a great detail yeah the kids were running around somebody at one point in the present day just carefree and then the kids in the memory are standing by the fence waiting for their parents to come back you know just miserable great

detail great do you did you add that or was that in the script do you recall i don't remember it could have been it could have been the ad it could have been in the script i don't remember i just know it work. Yeah, it totally worked. Very generous of you to give the whole team the credit, but I think it's a great detail. All those people would be involved, so yeah. Yeah, well, it was, it was great. When we snap to the present, there's Kirr telling Oda, they haven't found the person responsible for shooting quark yet, even though they locked down the, you know, the docking bay, because they weren't letting anybody off. She does mention Oda that she's heard about some list that was in the wall and wonders if it has to do with Vatrick. And then there's this long, loaded look between them.

And Odo says he's had the same thought, and then Kerr just walks away. So clearly there's some history there with this murder and the two of them. Some baggage involved. Yeah. And Renee has a wonderful look, and I'm not sure what that look is, and that's good. It's ambiguous, you know, of whether it's concern, whether it's intrigue. There's several things playing through his face, and then Jim eventually. ends with a t-shot of Renee as he's thinking about the things that he's thinking about.

Again, another shot that I'd very much enjoy it. And a great performance, of course, by Renee. We do have a security log again from Odo saying that in this job, there is no unfinished business. The assault on quark reopens a five-year-old murder case that I've never, not for a moment, closed. Patience is a lost virtue to most, to me and ally. love that writing yeah yeah we go in the security office from there um otto is questioning rom in this scene which i loved um rome's very nervous otto clearly does not have much faith in rom's intelligence or memory but he tries really hard otto's coaching him just breathe just breathe try and remember

rome closes his eyes he remembers some letters and then a name chezzo he thinks see at the beginning at the end. So they think they have a name now. Chezzo is the clue that Odo gets out of the scene. But a great comic scene to me, the way that... I loved watching that scene because the connection between the two actors

was so wonderful. It was, you could tell that they rehearsed a lot and they bounced off each other very well. There was a real truth to that scene. It didn't feel acted. It felt real and funny. Each character was who they were as characters. Max was hysterical.

and I just love that scene. And I was about to say exactly the same thing. Max walks a very wonderfully fine line of comedy and seriousness at the same time. Bravo. Bravo to Max Grudanche. Yeah. And most goes what I was saying, you certainly know it, Armand, but to act with all that crap on your face and those teeth in your mouth

and to still be able to be subtle and funny and have moments is remarkable that you got to do that. I noticed, Jim, in this episode, a number. of times sort of actors entering a close frame, which was kind of in the detective genre to me, the kind of, you know, Odo leaning down close to Max or, you know, to ROM, things like that. I just, I love some of that the way that the shots were designed and things just sort of evolved and things entered the frame, things exited the frame. It was really well done. Yeah, I enjoyed watching it too because a lot of it came back. And there was one frame in particular where somebody exits and then somebody has face comes straight into a close, into a 50-50 with somebody.

It was just a wonderful moment. I can't remember. I remember that. That's one I'm thinking of, exactly the same shot. Odo's the one that pops in. And maybe it was Cisco that was there and then Cisco leaves or I can't remember. But it was one of this, the visual interest of that head coming in like that. It's very film noirish, but also just really good as a viewer, the shock of it coming in.

Yeah. And it was planned, but that's always fun to have happened. It worked great. It worked great. Okay, so now we go. We're still in the present day. We're back from the promenade. This gym is where I made a note.

The kids running around laughing was just a great way of expressing the life, the families that live on the station, the life that goes on there. I really, I noticed that. I love the kids. Odo walks Rahm out of his office, and that's when Kira approaches. And Odo says he might have a name. He tells Kira, Chazzo. She says the name doesn't ring a bell, that she wasn't there for very long.

Kira says anything. Otis asked if she knew about Chazzo. And she says, I wasn't here long. I would have, dot, dot, dot, I would have been executed. Otis says, you were innocent of the crime I was investigating. That's an interesting line knowing the ending of the episode. If we go back, if we have and have hindsight, one has to ask some questions, which I'll get to maybe at the end when this line has more resonance. But for him to say, you were innocent of the crime I was investigating.

Yeah. Wow. And that from Odo, not that from Odo. Yes. So, Kira responds that the name doesn't ring a bell. She wasn't there long, and she would have been executed by the Cardassians, even if she was innocent. And Odo says she was innocent and it would have mattered to him, which I like that exchange, that part of her referencing how ruthless Cardassians were and that Odo really stands on the truth, you know, that he's got a, that he was safe in a way and had honor in a way that the Kardashians didn't around this crime. And to double down on that in a preview.

scene between Odo and and Galdicott. The way Galdicott gets Odo to accept this assignment is to say either you take the assignment or we kill off 10 Bajorans. Yeah. Yeah. And that too is indicative of Odo's morality that he would

rather do something that is repugnant to him than see people die. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, good point. Yeah, very redeeming. This episode explains so much for both, for Odo and Kira, and it brings so much redemption to them both, you know. Yeah. We jump into a memory. We are in a Bajorn soup kitchen.

Another cool transition. I think you come out of black with a crane. You're up high in the set in some way. And you come down by the wall. This is where the sad kids are in this scene. And that's where we see the soup kitchen. the kid's waiting for their parents. Kira's eating some soup.

And Odo approaches and says, a pretty girl like her shouldn't be eating alone. She misinterprets this. She's ready to kill him, to punch him. Well, who wouldn't misinterpret those lines? Come on. Yeah. He says, no, I'm just investigating.

We do see the wife. We see her hovering creepily nearby, looking at Kira, which was classic, film noir kind of moment. Yeah, he says he's investigating. Odo asked what happened. Kira says that she wasn't having an affair with him. They were just friends. She lost her job at the replicator plant for hitting her boss who propositioned her the same way Odo just did. And he's very happy she didn't hit him. She does ask if Odo's working for the Cardassians here. He says, no, I'm neutral. And she says, well, you've got to pick aside. Everybody has to pick aside. And this is the scene

where she names him, she calls him constable for the first time. I love that. Yeah. That, you know, all the, all the, the mythology and the back story of, of how these things came to be is, a lot of it is laid out in this episode.

Really, really nice. How did you find, just to go off on a tangent for a minute, Jim, how did you find Nana and Renee as actors working together? Did they, how was that? What was that like? They were fantastic together. They had a chemistry that was just, you felt like they'd been actual friends and on the space station for years.

I mean, they were both incredibly talented, understood each other, gave each other whatever space was necessary. It was great to work with them. And their chemistry will turn into something. So later on, the dailies from all of these episodes led them to a choice later on. Oh. Oh, I think you may have. have mentioned that armin or terry one of you mentioned that earlier that there's a there's a moment in an episode early in this one i don't think it's this i think it's too early here but uh there is a

rene and and has said many times at conventions there was a moment in one particular episode i don't believe it was this one where the where the writers went but certainly what happens here in this episode this this very chemistry that jim is talking about was always there and it wasn't surprised to anybody that what happens, happens. Yeah. Well, we go to Bejor now into Polra's living room. Odo's questioning her. She's flat out lying, and we as the audience know it.

She's not telling him what we saw. She pretends to know nothing about all of this, but she really says she cares about Quark. And Odo tells her that Bashir has saved her life, which she thinks he's dead. She thinks Quirk is dead. So there's a little moment of, oh, he's alive. He does ask about this name Chesso.

She says, no, I don't know it, but she will always help in any way she can. And this is that Colombo moment, I think, when Odo's leaving. And he says, oh, one more thing. One more thing. I understood your power was recently terminated for lack of payment. That's right. Yet you were able to transfer funds to the power company this morning. So now all these, there's some questions here.

Where is this newfound wealth coming from? She says it's from a friend. She says a friend just, and of course she's not very, she's not, she doesn't want to give up who this person is. She says it's a personal issue. He's married or whatever, you know, just skirting the issue. Yeah, great scene. Great scene. Do you remember shooting this scene, Jim?

It doesn't stand out to me. No. I mean, I remember shooting it, but there's nothing about it that made me say, well, this is great, no. This is, yeah, nothing that pops. I mean, this was on a swing set for sure. This was not a regular set, but I thought it was a beautiful set. You know, sometimes swing sets can be, you know, tiny little boxes that they don't want to spend a ton of money on. This was beautiful.

It had big windows, high ceilings. It was, it was gorgeous. I also think that set design added some things into this scene because of the new, the windfall of money. So I think she also did some extra. Some redecorating. Some redecorating from the early scene. I would re-refurnish my house if I came into a lot of money. Yes.

I mean, I like my furniture. Don't get me wrong, but I'd upgrade for sure. But I'm just saying set design was, you know, they were 100% as well showing. And when this scene is over, just before it's over, Jim again, focuses the camera on Catherine Moffat, Patrick. And again, so that it mirrors these shots of Renee looking and, her looking of characters thinking about things that they're keeping a secret from the audience. I think that's sort of a theme here for you, Jim, is that you're showing us the characters thinking and not just cutting away because the scene is over.

Right. Yeah. There's enough left performance-wise to stay there and keep the audience guessing. Even though the audience is sort of ahead of you knows where it's going, they think, but these people are still scheming and thinking and you want to be part of that right and you don't know you yes they're scheming and thinking but you don't know what they're going to do next and that's what i think the characters are thinking about what am i going to do next right there's also a lot of voiceover in this episode a lot of we're about to have another security log supplemental but from otto but there's more voice more security logs in this episode than typical for a star trek episode and it gives that operative. It's a very film noir

time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Having the detective, the private eye, sort of narrating his life is very much in the genre of a film noir. And it's done beautifully with these security logs, I think. In this security log,

Odo says the Ferengi's holding on to life like it's gold press latinum. He just doesn't want his brother to have the bar. We do see Odo checking on quark in the infirmary. He's still not stable. Bashir says they're going to have to wait a few more days and just sit and wait. There's nothing more they can do. Kira says that she's found something, a Bajoran mining engineer named Chisaro drowned last night mysteriously. And Odo is really, you know, feels guilty that he told Vatrick the name because he thinks that's why this guy,

Chesero, who's very close to the name they thought they had Chazzo, he thinks that's what killed. And so he asked his security guys to perform a full autopsy, treat it like a homicide. He wants Odo. Odo wants bank records of Mrs. Vatrick. So you can see where this money came from to turn on the power. And he tells the armed security guard to have someone with Quirk at all times, 24 hours a day. Yeah, Robbie, this is where the pad comes in showing Chesso or Chisaro.

Oh, yes, yeah, that's where, yeah. So guess who that is on the image? Yeah, who? Dan Curry. Is it really? With the freaking goatee beard or whatever, yeah. That's fine. I miss that.

Oh, my God, I have to go back and see that. I miss that. How did I miss that? Wow. I have a feeling a lot. saying, hey, Dan, get your mug on this sucker. I mean, I was probably not. It was probably something they all did together.

Okay. They probably did it later. Yeah, in post, right? Yeah. I bet a lot of our crew. I bet Dan was in a bunch of different episodes in photos. No, I think that's the only one. I think Dan said he was in one episode.

Oh, really? Yeah. So that's the one then. That may be it. But, you know, Dan Curry used a lot of his photos from Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, and whatever to use for. Um, shots, background shots and everything, Matt, Matt paintings. Yeah. He did that. Anyway, Dan Curry was, side fact, side fact here.

Or dead Chasaro. Or Jassarro. Dan Curry. Dan Curry. We go to a flashback to Quark's, Odo's meeting quark for the very first time. And he implies, uh, Quark is implying in the scene that Kira traded, uh, sex to get a job, basically. Right. And Odo knows that he's lying. grabs them by the collar another grab that's a believe me it's in my reactions like stop the collar the collar armin not your neck so there you go my throat not your throat everybody jim as we watch the show i'm realizing cork is grabbed more than any other character by far more than any other character on the show people are always grabbing him tossing him around yeah and jim we were we were making light of the fact that it was actually Avery

Brooks in one episode that didn't grab Armin's collar but his actual throat and you could see like it's just like this is this is real he's kind of yeah or Armin is what it was I was like wait a minute does he not know what he's doing right now he's a little bit lost in his character or in the anger of the character

so I was making light of that fact some method acting there yeah but it won't be the last time that I'm grabbed in and Okay. Up around the, you know, almost over the bar. Sometimes, in fact, over the bar as well. So there's more of that to come, is what you're telling us.

Oh, my God, yes. I don't like it, Armin. I don't like it at all. Yeah. I don't like, you're the Rodney Dangerfield of DS9. No respect. No respect. No respect.

Once Cork is grabbed by the collar, he admits that she did pay him for an alibi. Yeah. And Dukot suddenly appears, thinks Odo's found the killer. wants a name. Odo says he'll give him. a name when it's the right name and not until then. And then this is when Cork and Ducotte begin laughing at Odo as Odo stands there. And that's the transition.

Oh, the laughing. Yes. Yeah, which is great. Goes into the next scene. Was that your choice, Jim? Because it couldn't have been ours. It must be scripted. It was scripted that way.

Oh, my God. Interesting. Yeah. Do you remember, Armin, when you offered Odo a drink and he says he doesn't drink? and then you offer him a soft drink and you pull a glass with like a little flare, like a streamer on it or something. Bud and Pat must have put it there. Those were the prop guys.

They must have, this is what they've decided. So it certainly wasn't my choice, no. It made me laugh. It looked like a Shirley Temple or one of those kids' drinks. It's very funny. It is interesting and again, delicious that Quark has no idea that, Odo doesn't take food or liquid in. It is the first meeting of these two characters

who will become such good friends as years go by. Yeah, and it's interesting because when you first meet Odo, you refer to the Cardassian neck trick as well. Yeah. So another sort of insult, I noticed that, you know, Renee. I have to get them in when I can because he insults me so many times. I think the score is tied.

though. I don't think so. I don't think so. Go ahead. You can believe that. Go ahead. All right. So off these laughing customers, we see Cisco and Dax sitting at a table. And Odo approaches and says he has names that he thinks is the mystery list. He got Vantrix communication records. And suddenly she started calling all these people after Quark was shot. And each of these people deposited lots of money into her account. So they must be collaborators, they realize. Collaborators with the Kardashians and they're being blackmailed in some way. Odo wants to bring Vatrick to the station for questioning. And as he heads out to do that, we see Muscle Handsome Killer Guy at the bar again, follows him out. Otos getting closer. He's got a lot of information. Okay, so the next

scene is another voiceover security log. We see shots on the promenade and in Odo's office. Odo says the one part of this that I loved was he's giving details like nobody had to teach me about this justice thing, something I've always known. He says the only clue I have is to what kind of people these are. And he's kind of rambling anyway. And he says, are these the kind of thoughts that are appropriate for a Starfleet log, it made me laugh. Yeah, it is funny. I thought that was funny. Even though it's rambling, there's still a lot of detail and a lot of information in this

log, because he says, no one had to teach him this justice trick. It's something I've always known, a racial memory from my species, I guess. So now we're getting a little glimpse into what a shapeshifter or who shapeshifter is that we didn't know beforehand. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. All these voiceovers are not only. funny to me. Yeah, they've got a lot of good character information. Yes. We go into the storage room

where Odo is interrogating Kira and he basically catches her in a flashback. He catches her back in the day in some lies. And she says, well, she wants to know what side that he's on. And he says he's only interested in justice. He's not on anybody's side. And she admits that she's a Bajoran resistance fighter and she sabotaged the ore or processor. That is her real alibi. And suddenly Dukot arrives and asks if Odo found the killer. Odo pauses, he says, no, that she can leave. And Duccott thinks he's lying at the end of the scene and reminds Odo reminds Dukot that he doesn't lie. So he didn't lie there. He just, he answered the question. She's not the killer.

I think he said she's not guilty of the crime. The crime that I'm investigating. Yeah. Right. Yeah. DuCott really wants to catch Kira, it feels like here. He really, he knows who he wants. He's just hoping Odo will.

Well, the writers always went out of their way, and rightfully so, in my opinion. But they always went out of their way to make Dukat the true villain of the show. And so whenever they could, they would put something obnoxious into his mouth. Yeah. He is such a good Nazi. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, he's very good. He's very good. But when we come out of this scene, and Dukot, at the end of the scene, he grabs Kiro on her way out. He's very physical with her, grabs her. But not around the throat. But not around the throat. No.

We come out of this memory to a close-up of Odo, and it seemed to me that this was a light-bulb moment for Odo, that remembering what Kira had. had told him. I don't know. I was very intrigued by how Renee played this silent moment. It was really great. Yeah. So now we go back to the infirmary where Cork is still lying on bed. Handsome muscle killer guy comes in with some flowers. The guard says there's no visitors. And that's when he's hidden some kind of weapon in the flowers. And he shoves the bouquet into the guard's chest. And we see that there was a weapon in there, some kind of knife or something. It was nasty. Okay. So I, My feeling is all the knives that we have seen used as weapons on DSpace 9 are lethal.

So they must be tipped with some type of poison because, yeah, that card goes down. Remember Amin Ritsa, the Cardassian file clerk? Remember when he got killed? Oh, yeah. It was just one stab to the back, which you would think, tis but a flesh wound, just one stab that someone who survived. He's done. He was dead. Now this, and this security guy, clearly, one stab and he's dead too.

So knives are definitely not to be messed up. We just didn't see it. Okay. I'll buy that. The slow death. All right. I'll buy that. And where was Bashir when this happened?

You know. Yes. Where was he? Handsome killer guy goes over with a pillow to smother quark when Rom enters and begins a screaming runner that is hilarious. Oh, my God. Rob starts screaming in this high-pitched Ferengi scream. He struggles with handsome killer guy.

and some killer guy throws him into some shelves still screaming the whole time i i just want to let's just talk about this scream it's it's not necessarily high pitch more it's more like he's making a scream that sounds like a siren from like a european ambulance it was great is jim before that he did before i don't know i don't never done this scream before this episode i did so no but i have you you've done a version of this his is this is different than yours though yes of course it's different yeah but but but i'm not i'm not taking credit for this but but this farangi scream has happened before you did it in the episode where uh the shape the trill tries to take over the station and steel dax that's when you were doing it in the in the infirm right and max is no fool

he's seen these episodes so he copied yeah not copied he made it better well he did a version yeah Yeah, he did his own version, but that's, I hadn't put that together that you did this before, that this is a, is this. There's a, you know, honesty may be a part of the shapeshifter racial background, screaming like that as part of the Ferengi background. I love it. So I just want to ask Jim, when you direct, when this scene started, you called action, did he tell you beforehand, did you guys rehearse that at all a little bit? Or did he just did it. I'm sure we reversed it. The thing that amazes me about it is the timing.

at the end when you think the screaming's all done and then when he realizes that arm is going to lose the bar and he gets it out that last scream again is so funny and i don't remember armand if your smile was scripted or something we came up with or not do you remember i don't remember it's one of the scripts i don't have so i don't have my notes for me i was going to ask you the same question whether that was something that you gave me i actually think it i'm thinking it was your idea? You said, what if I smile there at the end? I think. Anyway, that's the story we're going to stick to. Yeah, I think that's a good story. I will admit, I do have a script in front of me from this. Does it say smile? I do have the script for this moment. So I'm going to look

and see if that was scripted, that smile, because Armin, as I said, I love the smile. You know, Rom realizes he's nothing to get the bar. He goes back to screaming. The camera tilts still reveals quark in the foreground with finally coming to life. If the one thing is going to bring him back from the dead. I am going to be a, make a bet. I don't know what actually, whether it's scripted or not, but I'm going to make a bet that it is scripted. Otherwise, I'm thinking, why would Jim have taken the camera onto my face?

It's not scripted. I think I shot it both ways so that they would have the choice. Because whenever somebody's not scripted, you had to get it cleared. So I'm sure I got on both ones. It's not scripted. Here's how it ends. Well, Bravo to the two of us for doing it. Yes.

It's scripted. It's over. Oda says it's over, Rom, over, you're a hero. Rom stopped shrieking. I am. Odo, you saved your brother's life.

Rom looks to court, breathing heavily in bed, realizes he just lost having the bar, starts to shriek again. That's how the scene ends. In the script. You guys added the smile. which is the perfect button.

Thank you for giving me the last word. So thank you. I love it. So it's either a collaboration between the two of you or one of you two came up with that smile. It's a very nice. That's great. It's a great button.

It is. We go to a holding area to the cell area now. Trascoe Muscle Killer Guy's in a cell. Paul was there. She still denies, she denies knowing muscle killer guy. I don't know him. Don't know who he is. Odo has her caught with the phone records, which he shares with her.

She says she wants a lawyer, basically. She says an advocate, I think, or something. Oda says he'll reach out while she waits in the cell and gets to know muscle killer guy. You can get familiar with each other. Kira escorts her into the cell. And there's a moment between Kira and Pahlra, where Kira takes her arm, Paulra pulls away, and then Kira grabs the arm again and drags her in. And I like that moment.

That was a nice character detail. Actually, since she tried to frame her. Yes, exactly. Who's got the upper hand now? Kara does. Paul Rook goes in the cell, though, and she says to Odo, you know, you'll never be able to prove that I killed my husband. And Odo responds, I know. So, yeah.

So he's solved the crime. He has. And now we're all waiting to find it. Well, then who did it? All right. It's good writing. It's good directing. Yeah. We go in the security office next. Odo shares that he's put all this together.

The Kira did it. She admits it privately to him. She says her colleague sabotage the org plan, not her, and that she was just meant to get a list of names of the collaborators from Vatrick's office. Vatrick was the direct link between the collaborators and Dukot. And Vatrick just walked in on her. She had no choice. She never found the list, but she did have. have to kill him. And Odo says, Kira's a better liar than he thought that he misjudged her. And she

says she didn't want to tell him because it would ruin their friendship and he would never trust her again. And he says, well, maybe it doesn't have to ruin her friendship. And she hopes that, that she, that he will trust her someday again. And it's a beautiful two shot tableau at the end. Very pretty. You see her, you know, ask that question. I hope you'll trust me again. And there's a moment they're looking at each other. Odo's head goes on. Renee, you know, had a nice moment to end the episode with a bit of a question, too, of where it's going to go for them.

And it's not only a question for this episode. It's a question for the series. Will the relationship between Kira and Odo change after this episode? Will they be more at loggerheads than they had been before? Tune in next week and find out. That's one of the things I loved about DS9. unlike the other Star Trek shows, all the relationships in this show are messy.

You know, clear cut, you know, at the end of every episode, everyone's all together, you know, off we go, you know, a merry band of friends. It's just a lot of subtext to all the relationships. And you're gone. I love that. I love the line that Kira has near the end of the scene where she says, what you think of me matters a lot.

I just, that little detail to me really popped out as kind of defining what their relationship is and what she wants it to be. Well, he's the moral center of the show and that means a lot to her. She likes to think of herself as a moral center as well. You're a rebel. And she realizes, I think, that he is the absolute,

unbiased sort of moral center. Yeah, Kara carries a lot of baggage. I would go, I wouldn't say, rebel, I would say terrorist. And that has a lot of baggage that she has to live with. Yeah. I mean, after all, did she really have to kill Vadrick? Yeah. I mean, she was discovered. I get that. Is there not a way to wound him? Is she not an expert enough fighter to wound him instead of killing him? Or is it just de rigour that if someone gets in your way, you kill him? Yeah. He's a pharmacist, too. I mean, he's not a fighter. So she probably could have easily

you know hand to hand maybe she was just trying to subdue him and in the melee he ended up hitting his he died in the middle accidentally yeah

but there's nothing worse than a collaborator he deserved to know right that's right yeah so Jim at the end of the episode we all talk about our what we think is the lesson to be learned

from this so the theme or the moral of this episode so I'm going to start with Robbie, what is your lesson for this episode, Necessary Evil? This one for me, what I took away from it, the lesson for me was the truth is sometimes very complicated, and there's not always a simple good side or a bad side. Okay. That this was, and that fits into the classic sort of film noir genre that, you know, that

that life is messy and the good guys have to do bad things sometimes and the bad guys can do good things sometimes too so yeah truth is complicated that's my lesson okay armin this was really difficult to find to define what the theme of this episode was for me i did a lot of thinking about it was it was not easy to to find an answer i finally found an answer in Sophocles, which is when trust dies, mistrust blooms. And I think, I think that's very indicative of this last moment we were just talking about at the end of the episode. But it's also true for Quark and Rom. Trust has died a little and mistrust blooms. All through the episode, we're finding out

that people are losing trust in other people. So that was my theme. Right? I'm going to go with be careful of allowing fear to dictate your actions because that's the reason why she was unable to tell Odo this entire time she was afraid that their friendship would have been, you know, I guess ruined or ended or something of that effect. But yeah, so that's my, that's one of mine.

The other one I would have to say is that sometimes you have to do an unpopular thing for the greater good. So that's another general theme. Jim, anything you wanted to talk about this particular episode? Maybe trust no one. Yeah. Okay. That's another one too. Everybody's secrets in this episode.

Yeah. Except your director. Trust your director. Trust your director. Always trust your director. You've got to trust James slash Jamie slash Jim Conn. way. Yes, you have to. Okay. All right. So the Patreon poll theme slash moral of the episode is submitted by Feroza Meta. And that moral is nothing is black and white. Life is a series of shades of

gray. Okay. Well said. Well said, Feroza. Well, thank you everyone for tuning into this episode and tune in next time when we will be reviewing and recapping the episode Second Sight. with Terry co-hosting with us. See you then. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material.