The Delta Flyers - Persistence of Vision

Episode Date: October 5, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Persistence of Vision. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.Persistence of Vision:While preparing to face the Bothan alien species, the crew encounters an odd psionic field causing their deepest thoughts to become reality.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers: Stephanie Baker, Philipp Havrilla, Peter Patch, Kelton Rochelle, Liz Scott, Sarah A Gubbins, Ann Marie Segal, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Jason Self, Daniel Adam, Chris Knapp, Michelle Zamanian, Matthew Gravens, Brian Barrow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, Shannyn Bourke, and Holly SmithAnd our Producers: Chris Tribuzio, Jim Guckin, Steph Dawe Holland, James Amey, Katherine Hedrick, Deborah Schander, Eleanor Lamb, Thomas Melfi, Breana Harris, Richard Banaski, Eve England, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Ann Harding, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Laura Swanson, Máia W, Luz R, Charity Ponton, Josh Johnson, Chloe E, Kathleen Baxter, Katie Johnson, Craig Sweaton, Maggie Moore, Ryan Hammond, Nathanial Moon, Warren Stine, York Lee, Mike Schaible, Kelley Smelser, Dave Grad, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Katherine Puterbaugh, Claire Deans, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Matthew Cutler, Crystal Komenda, Joshua L Phillips, Barbara Beck, Mary O'Neal, Aithne Loeblich, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Heidi Mclellan, Dat Cao, Cody Crockett, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Oliver Campbell, Anna Post, Evette Rowley, Robert Hess, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Nathan Butler, Terry Lee Hammons, Andrei Dunca, James Keel, Daniel Owen, Brian Jordan, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Amber Nighbor, and Ming Xie Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers with Tom and Harry as we journey through episodes of Star Trek Voyager. Remember, you can get the full version of this podcast by signing up to become a patron at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers. I am your host, Garrett Wong, and with me, my co-host, Robbie Duncan McNeil. How are you, buddy? people? I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. I already incorporated our shorter intro right there. You like that? I liked it. It was nice. Nice. This is just getting better and better this show. Yeah. You were talking about needing a nap. I think this is something that as we are now in our 50s, naps are really key. I mean, it's unbelievable how much sleep time that I feel like I need extra sleep time. And you also, same thing. Same thing. Yeah. I find that when I'm filming and working, I have to go, when we break for lunch for our 30 or 45 minute lunch, I have to go in the trailer. I have an app on my phone. I put on this thing called Calm. And I put on for 15, 20 minutes and I just have

to lie down and like, like, I don't always nap. Sometimes just like breathe. and meditation or something like that is just as good, but like just calming my brain and my body for 15, 20 minutes, yeah. Well, you know, I remember when we were filming that Tim Russ took a lot of naps. And he would tell me, he would tell me. He'd say, listen, 15 minutes, 15 minutes will do you a world of good. And I kept thinking, really 15 minutes of that time? I can't even fall asleep in 15 minutes.

How do you do it? But, you know, he had his little. reclining beach chair on the set and he had a little personal heater so he was always warm and bathrobe and slippers so you know he was the master of nap to relax he knew how to relax him russ does know how he knows how to relax he does he really does college football is back i'm a big college football fan uh my team yesterday the georgia bulldogs yeah very slow start against Arkansas. It was kind of scary the first half. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe football players are playing football with COVID and all that. I didn't expect that it was going to happen

this year or the NFL or any of that. There are certain divisions, certain colleges that are not playing, right, at all. But when it comes to the South, football is such a institution that I think they said, you know, we're going to play, COVID or not, we're going to play. You guys still have the same coach? Is it the same? Yeah, we do. Kirby Smart at Georgia. Yeah.

Yeah. And Georgia is just known for providing the NFL with some real quality running backs. I'll say that there's some Georgia running backs that it's almost guaranteed. If you're the starting running back for Georgia, you're going to the NFL. Yeah. That's it. Right? They call it running back you.

That's right. In the past decade, who are your favorite Georgia running backs that you just adored or loved? Well, I love Nick Chubb, who had just graduated. You know, just went in the NFL last year. Amazing. Cleveland Brown. Yeah, Cleveland Brown. Nick Chub is great.

No Sean Marino, I loved. Oh, right. Yeah. DeAndre Swift go to... DeAndre Swift is, yeah, he's up at... He's a lion now. Detroit. Lion, yeah, with Matt Stafford.

Yeah, I just... I love college football. There's something about that. It just feels like fall. It feels like a holiday time of year. So, yeah, anyway. It was nice to see some football. back but I did I took my nap getting back to the nap thing was watching some college football got a little

nap in it was a perfect Saturday yesterday and you know I had to rest up because we've got a show to record today that's right that's right you know I have to do my exercises my my podcasting rewatch exercises laying down on the couch testing my fingers for the remote the pause button And, you know, this is, this is hard work. We should shoot a whole video of you, a montage of you working out your finger, working out your other various, you know, muscles that you have to use. For a rewatch. Yeah, for rewatching.

Yeah. All right. So this week's episode is Persistence of Vision. Mm-hmm. So we are going to re-watch this episode and come back with our recap. All right, guys, we're back from the rewatch of persistence of vision. Yes, we are. What's your initial reaction to seeing that?

Creepy. Here's my initial reaction. What the hell was Balana doing with Jacote? I didn't remember that. That's my initial reaction. That's your takeaway. That's your takeaway. I agree with you.

It was creepy. It was very twilight zony, but I didn't. I do agree with you. I don't remember Chocote smacking on Torres. What the heck? Falling down in the bed and then she's like,

give me that stuff. Yeah, she attacked him. The Klingon came out in her. You hear that? She was, no, no. She's like, yes, roar. And she just kind of devoured him. And I was so shocked.

That's my initial reaction is I got creeped out by Balana. I'm glad that I didn't remember that she had these buried thoughts about Chocote. or we would have had a conversation about that. So written by Jerry Taylor, directed by Jim Conway. I'm going to go ahead and give you my haiku. I can't wait. I can't wait. Here we go.

Captain is so stressed. Visions and voices galore. Resonance burst saves. Whoa. Nice haiku. I'm going to try to just do a limerick wrap right now off top of my head. Okay, wrap it out. I'm just going to wrap out a limerick wrap.

Go. They went into both a space. They were seeing things all over the place. Janeway got kissed and Paris got dissed. And Kess and Neelix had Alka-Seltzer on their face. That's my limerick. That's my limerick wrap. You knocked that out of the park.

You were a Georgia Bulldog running back scoring a touchdown on that one, came through with a limik, wrap off the top of my tone. Yeah, that was Alka-Seltzer on their face, by the way. Okay. It didn't really, my Limerick synopsis didn't really capture the story, but it rhymed. You know what I wrote, you say Alka-Seltzer. What I wrote down, I wrote down, smores. It just reminded me of camping and marshmallows and smores and graham crackers and melted

This, you know, that's kind of what it felt like. It did look like a s'mores. Hey, Janeway's hair. It's back to the bun, but there's some highlight going on. I don't know if you notice. It was sort of blondeish in the front and red in the back. I actually made a note that I liked her hair this time. Like this version of the bun, I actually thought was very flattering.

Is there some versions of the bun that, mm-mm. Yeah, business up front, party in the back. Now, this was a good version, good version of the bun. Yeah, we're entering both the space. You know, they talk about it, just passing through, just looking to meet them, get permission to pass through. Clearly, Janeway is stressed out at the top, clearly. Big time.

Big time stressed out. We're all, you know, that's clear from the beginning. I got to say, I love the mini doctor at the very beginning. And they project him in and he's like this big. And they did it before. Like there was another episode, I think, in season one that we watched. where he was a tiny on you know he was shrinking he was shrinking but I love when they play around with those ideas with the doctor and and they change up his voice a little like it starts getting

a little cartoonie like that I wish they had yeah I wish they had done more of that like played with the idea of his size and his voice I think it could have been a lot a lot of fun to have you know if we need to sneak into some place where tiny little doctor could have snuck in there and I think it would have been awesome. I don't know why we didn't do that much. That was great. I loved it. It makes me laugh.

So that's a mistake that Torres and Kim did, right? So they try to project him to his normal size, and he was tiny. And then I thought the doctor was really kind of snapping orders at us. And I had no idea that he outranked Torres and Kim. On health issues, yeah. Health issues, he unranked the captain. I get that. But on his own projection issues, he doesn't hold the rank of captain.

No. But he snapped at everybody. He's so snappy. He's a snapper. Dr. Snapper. Dr. Snapper. Did it confuse you? When we first see that both in Captain, the way he's back lit, you know, all that lights

come in from the back. To me, he looked like a dog sitting there with his front legs extended and the back. You know, he just looked like a dog to me. And not until later at the very end when he gets up. And then he turns into your father and he turns into Mark for Janeway. then you realize oh he was sitting normally it just it seemed very to me very mysterious yeah mysterious and i just thought wow he looks like he's sort of some canine race of alien you know that that's what i got that would have been by the way let's just pause for a minute why didn't we do an episode like that

where they had dogs or something some animal and they could have put voices into the animal and we could have gone and met some species and they could have used dogs or pigs or goats or whatever. That would have been kind of cool. I wonder if they ever thought of doing that. We never touched on that, did we? No, we always would see these kind of humanoid with rubber on their faces, aliens, but they never really, or eventually we got, you know, CG aliens of some sort.

But we never played with the idea that, which I love, that like, we could meet an alien that looks like an octopus or something or look like a dog. That would have been fun. You know, it's interesting because I remember talking. to one of the makeup artists and I was talking about because he was he was doing the sort of a clay representation of the next aliens you know face and I was watching him do that and I was just mesmerized and I asked him I was like what it you know how does this work does Michael Westmore the head of makeup does he just does he tell you exactly what he wants or does

he give you guys free reign to sort of you know do this or that and what are your influences, like, you know, what influences your decision to make an alien's face look like one way or another? And they said, well, a lot of it we take from nature. He's like, we'll look at certain insects and we'll look at certain things that are in existence now as real creatures, you know, on Earth. And then we'll kind of meld that into what we would like to see. And I thought, oh, that's cool. But they've never done anything with, you know, like a canine race. Yeah, yeah. You know when they're in the mess hall? Yes. And Janeway's finally eating. and he shows her the different dishes he's cooked.

The brine-soaked nestle strips and the deviled wood frock. Both of those were straight from the Asian market. And I knew this because I've been at Chinese restaurants at banquets with my family, a big banquets, we're sitting there, and I recognize that. And I think the nestle strips are actually, I think that's octopus, to be honest. and then or possibly some type of intestine. I don't know because I don't remember.

Like when I go to a Chinese restaurant, I just eat whatever is thrown in front of me. But I do recognize those items. And I just found it interesting how that, and we've talked about this before, like in order to give the look of some exotic alien food, they would go to, you know, find what's the most exotic. Asian foods tended to be what they,

They would do some mashup of like take an Asian dish and then do some twist on it. Right. And that would be the alien version. Yeah. Well, then that makes me wonder if Star Trek Voyager was produced in China, if it was a Chinese show. Would they be French fries and fried chicken and apple pie and pizza? And they'd be like, look at this alien food. Yeah.

True. True. Mm-hmm. Robbie, when Janeway says someone was walking on your grave. talking about Kess having a weird feeling. And she says, that's an old saying on earth to describe an odd feeling. Have you ever used that saying yourself?

No, but I've heard it. It's a little dated. A big time. I've never heard of it before. Someone's walking on your grave if you get the chills, yeah. By the way, I want to go back for a second and talk about Janeway had her very first kiss

on screen in that Holo novel. Are you sure about that? I don't think she had a kiss. before that did she we've watched these now and I was all of a sudden I was like wait a minute I don't think I know there was some flirting there's been some of those kind of things but I don't remember her having a kiss until this episode on screen we talked about that flirtation with Chikote when she was totally staring at his lips and that she didn't kiss him yet she didn't kiss him and

that guy on the pleasure planet she kind of flirted with him but I don't think she kissed him oh that's right because I was the one that kiboshed that right Ken ran into the scene and just kind of screwed up the entire romance. Yeah, so I don't think she that Cape Mulgrew had filmed an on-screen kiss until her hollow novel in that opening, that first round in the hollow novel. I think you're right. I think that's her first kiss. And by the way, she has her second on-screen kiss in the entire episode

with the actor playing Mark, her fiancé, in the same episode. Two different kisses on screen. She hasn't had a single one up until now. So I thought that was an interesting, wow. Yeah, two smooches. Lots of smooching. Everybody's in. And Balana is getting some, which I've already commented on.

Isn't that her first kiss? I don't think she's kissed anybody. No, I don't think so, until this point. No. I also notice whenever I'm in a scene with Balana, I look at her or she'll look at me whenever and we won't, it's sort of like, I'll glance at her and she's not looking at me. and then she'll glance at me. And then we look, it's like our looking timing is way off.

It's like, and I don't know if that has to do with me being intimidated by the fact that she was, you know, I was buying the fact that she's half Klingon and really living my role as, as Ensign Kim and believing that she was half Klingon and being intimidated by her Klingon. Just bad timing. It's just bad timing. Yeah, the sick base scene with Kess getting the chills and Kess feeling what Janeway is experiencing and having her telepathic abilities. I love, again, another reminder of how important Kess was in these first couple seasons. Yeah. I had forgotten. And I think I

dismissed that character more than I should have in my memory because they wrote her off and she left the show. But as I rewatch these episodes, I am really impressed with Jennifer Charlene's performance and with the writing of that character and how important she was. I mean, she ultimately saves all of us in this episode, you know. Yeah. She shows a lot of range. A lot of range. Absolutely.

Very impressive for her age again. Yeah. I loved in the sick bay scene, the music. I forget which composer did this. I want to say Jay Chatterway, but I can't remember. The horror sort of strings when the little girl appears. Oh, yeah. And it sounds like a horror movie, like the Omen or.

the exorcist or something like that. And you see the little girl and you hear this, like on the strings. It was great. It really adds to it, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. The music was awesome. Yeah, it elevates the tension.

Yeah. We had great composers on Star Trek. You know, we've talked about it before, but I just will reiterate that we had three composers that sort of rotated, but they would write these entire orchestral scores with a full orchestra that got recorded it's unheard of now it just doesn't happen but I didn't know there's three I thought there was just one so there's three that sort of like just went off I think there were three that did our show I'd have to go back and look and I should know that but j. Chathaway I think was one of

them yeah um I'm spacing out on the other two but that's okay but really really great music work in this episode I think um the knife slash by the hallucinated uh yeah the hallucination of the governess character, whoever that woman was. That was in Janeway's quarters? Yeah, in her quarters. Do you notice the knife is in her left hand, and so she slashes from left to right. But if you look at the actual wound, it's the wrong way. So it's something up.

It's the other way. It's completely, it should be, it should be, the wound should go from upper left of her hand to the right in a descending sort of emotion, but it was the other way. So it was as if she used a right hand to slash down. It was all in her mind. This was all of hallucination. Maybe that was a choice that we do things, kind of some things off.

It's just not connecting. I don't know. And like I said, these are really random, small things that I noticed. Yeah. And I also noticed that, well, not noticed, but it made me laugh when Tuvok sees his wife,

The Pell, and she says, and right in front of you is your loot. And I kept thinking of, you know, is that your loot or are you happy to see me? Like, you know, I would, and I remember making fun of Tim on set about that. I'm like, hey, you know, you've been playing with your loot lately. I was just doing, you know, guy jokes with him about that. I had a thought about the, when Tim saw his loot, which, by the way, we never saw him play in the series. Did he ever play the loot?

No. And see, this goes back to my complaint about how they made. made me the person. Learn. Yeah, learn the clarinet. I had to learn a clarinet, something I'd never played before. Tim should have. Tim should have played the damn loot.

And by the way, and he's a musician. It would have been awesome. And by the way, they cut to him. She goes, you're back home on Vulcan. Look around you. And they cut to him on this planet. And I'm like, who the hell would want to be on that horrible planet? It looked like hell.

It was like fire and death. fire and death's hurt and I'm like, are you, do you think? It looked horrible. That's a horrible neighborhood. Why would she say like, oh, you should be happy. You're on Vulcan. No, I'm damn happy. I'm not on Vulcan right now because this is a bad neighborhood. It looks like Death Valley in the U.S. It did. It looks horrible. By the way, in that same sequence, you know, the actor that played Tom Parris's father was not Richard Hurd. No. I forgot.

I forgot. They originally hired, and I don't know what that guy's name is, but we'll have to look it up. I sat there and I said, wait a minute, this guy's eyebrows are way busier than Richard Hurd. This guy's face is a little different than Richard Hurd. No, I forgot that they switched that out. They switched him out.

But I would say, of all the main actors on the show, when we all landed into that state, that catatonic state, other than Kess, obviously, doctor. I'm most impressed with your state of catatonia. You really look the most catatonic of all. Thanks, buddy. You did.

You did. It was a side profile view. Your mouth was a little bit of gait. You're like this. You're kind of looking up, but it looked real. I bought it. Like the other ones, I was like. I got a question, though.

The whole thing about, like, Janeway is dealing with this for the first two or three acts. Yeah. she's having hallucinations and she's not going into a catatonic state and then suddenly for some reason when everybody else starts finally having these hallucinations they freaking can't handle it and they turn catatonic yeah like the rules seem to change and that sort of bugged me i got to say like i wish that yeah gainway had become catatonic early on and they had figured out like she had the strength to fight through or something so that later on when other people started turning

Catatonic, you're like, oh, well, Janeway is super tough. And I don't know, it just seemed like the rules change. And I hate when that happened. Yeah, you're right about that. I mean, that also brings up, for me, questions of, did that firefight even happen? Yeah. Like when we were getting, you know, oh, we have, you know, damages on this. Our shields are, did that even happen?

I almost feel like, no, because that guy was so good at, you know, controlling our minds from wherever he was. He wasn't even there. Like, those ships weren't there. He wasn't there. Well, it did get readings and it said these are automatic. There's no life signs on the ship. There's no life signs on those ships.

Yeah. So it was very, very confusing. Yeah, I like the idea of turning catatonic, but I wish that it had been set up earlier or dealt with earlier so it didn't feel like all of a sudden the whole crew is turning catatonic. And somehow the captain never did. That confused me. Yeah, because it really seemed like everyone at the switch of a,

But I mean, the light was switched and they were immediately catatonic, right? Like there was no, like nobody had any power to resist at all. And then Janeway spent the majority of the episode fighting it, fighting it, fighting it, and finally giving into it, right? So yeah. So that was a little bit of a. By the way, I got to say, so in all honesty, like when Chakote comes in and Bologna and he's flirting with Belauna and like I started getting uncomfortable, isn't that weird?

Like that was just my character was married to Boulana. But yeah, somehow I'm like, like, Beltran, what are you doing? We're jealous? Yeah. Wow, that's so weird. Isn't that weird? It was a part of me because I forgot about it. So I was like, I didn't remember this.

Like, I'm a little jealous. Like, I'm a little, what are you doing? Yeah. And he was kissing her and he put his hand up by her neck and was like, I'm going to strangle my wife. Like, get your hands off my wife and stop strangling her. Because that's my half-clan wife. Yeah, I could see you getting uncomfortable.

I was just still so shocked by that scene, like not remembering one iota of that even being filmed. So that to me was like the whole time I was watching what? What? And now they're going to do it? What? I was so, oh my God. Janeway gets another kiss.

In the turbo lift, yes. I don't know if you noticed this, but I noticed it looked like a horizontal scar on Janeway's nose, like right above the, the bulbous part of the nose. You didn't see that at all? No, I didn't see that. And I was just wondering, is that a childhood scar? Maybe it was something for the episode,

or maybe it was something that happened in her life and they were trying to cover it up during that episode. I don't know. Yeah, it just, or it could be just something from the makeup department, you know, a gaffe on their part, but that's something that I saw. Interesting. So when Janeway is knocking Mark away,

his hand away when he's trying to, you know, get funky with her in the elevator and the turbo lift. It just reminded me of Keely watching TikTok and singing a song where she just, it goes something like this. She goes, stop, don't touch me there. This is my no-no square. So random, but that's all I can think about when she was like, you know, I won't let you touch me.

And she pushes them away. Right. Just reminded me of that random chant that talks. Don't touch me there. This is my no, no, no square. Yeah, there you go. Sort of a way to. All right.

That's good to know. Yeah, you know. I'm going to use that. You're going to use that? I think you should use that on set, too. I think you should. Stop. Don't touch me there.

This is my no, no square. Yeah. Okay. By the way, doctor and Kess save the day again. I feel like the doctor and Kess are always saving the day because she's telepathic and he's a hologram. Yeah. Yeah.

You're skipping over your scene in the hallway, Robbie. No, I'm about to talk about that. So that plasma, that plasma burn, and when I was, when Kess was hallucinating and I was pretending to be hurt in the hallway, that makeup, I thought was so cool. It was the first time I'd had a really cool, big, you know, prosthetic because they did half my face with that plasma burn. That's the night, and I've told this story before. At the end of the night, they usually take off the makeup and give you a hot towel and everything. And I was like, no, no, no. Don't take this off. It's awesome. I got to stop for gas on the way home and I'm going to go in and get some snacks. So leave it. And I'm just going to go. I'm going to see if I'm driving. If anybody notices. So I did. I left that. That's the plasma burn. Exactly. That episode. I don't know what night of the week it was. But it was, it was dark when I was driving home. And I stopped for gas. And I remember people looking at me like, you know, a lot of stairs. And then I went in to go.

some snacks. I don't think I needed anything, but I was like, I just got to go in and get like some soda and some chips or something, stand in line with my plasma burn. And I think that actually the lesson, it was fun for me because it was a silly game. Yeah. But the lesson for me, I remember thinking afterwards of like, wow, that was an interesting lesson for people who are not so fortunate that do have physical things, whether it's, you know, birth defects or whatever they have. I was really aware of people staring. Like when somebody looks different, the way that people sort of look at you as like a monster or a, yeah. And I know that was a scary makeup, but it gave me some empathy for people who have things that are not their fault in any way. Just they're born with them or have

something happened to them and how that can be very difficult to move through the world and stuff. So that's the plasma burn, though, that hallway scene, I went home that night and wore it all the way and then washed it off at home. Well, I love how it started as a gag and experiment. Yeah, I thought it was just going to be like a laugh. Well, not to take away from your lesson and not to make light of your plasma burn, but my notes were, in the minute I saw you, I thought of that time during the big Las Vegas Trek convention where you, Rebecca, Megan and I went to go eat at the coal-fired pizza place in the mall there. It's just, your face looked like the bottom of the coal-fired pizza crust is what it reminded me. That's sort of like that coal, that coal treatment.

It would look like you were, you know, a coal miner that was involved in an accident. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the days. Those were the days. Restaurants, pizza, malls. and you walking like a model. Oh, that's right. They had like the Las Vegas fashion, the fashion runway. Yeah, fashion show mall. So I went up on the ramp and did a little impromptu fashion show. That's right.

Yeah, I'm going to have to. I'm such an introvert. I really don't like attention. I'm going to have to post that on the Patreon page. Do you have the video of it? I do have that video. You should. And the other good one.

one I have that I need to post is of you. I don't know if Rebecca has this, but when we were in Turks and Kikos for my birthday, did you record, did she record you on the pole dancing like a pole dance? No. I have that too. On the boat? On the boat? Out on the boat? I don't know. I'm going to post that one too. Okay. All right. Deal. I have no pride, no shame. By the way, I just want to say that sure, Balana may have some deeply buried attraction to Chakotay, but that was a dream. She didn't really sleep with him. So I just want to go on record as saying, like, Balana did not actually have a real affair with Chukotay.

But did she have a real attraction? Was that her secret, though? Was that her secret? I mean, yes, I think that was her secret. I think that was her deeply buried desire. But just like Janeway didn't actually. kiss Mark in the turbo lift. No, I know, I know that.

I'm just saying, but the fact that she had that deep desire. But I guess, yes, yeah, she definitely had the desire, but all I'm saying is, like, in the series of Voyager, Palana and Chakote never actually had. Correct. No, they never, they never did. Yeah, which, they never acted upon that. Yeah, because I'm, I'm a little jealous about it. I know you're jealous.

Does it make you feel like less of a man? Does it, does it make you feel like, yes? I knew it. And she's secretly desired. I also want to say when Neelix comes in and Kess is trying to save the day with the warp burst or whatever in the engineering residence burst and Neelix comes in and he's so worried about it and then he sort of turns into evil Neelix I liked evil Neelix he plays evil good yeah I was like I wish neelix would be a little evil now and then like I was that was it reminded me of the pilot and that

that jacket, the coat that I love so much. Yeah. And evil Neelix. I just, that's all. I liked it. Yeah, no, there were a lot of like mirror universe moments going on of everyone flipping over, you know. So, yeah, that's a good note.

That's a good note. I had issues with figuring out the theme on this one. And we talked a lot about this a little bit before. So I'm going to let you run on that one, okay? Well, I think for me, the theme was, more of a question than an answer. Is it better to know the thoughts that you have buried? Everyone has buried thoughts, subconscious.

So the theme is, is it better to know those and bring those to your consciousness and actually become aware of it? Or keep them buried? To me, that's the theme. The theme is a question, not an answer. And I think it's interesting. I think you had said, even Janeway actually says something

to Balana there at the end about, the last scene she's basically saying maybe we should look at our you know these deepest thoughts we should address them look them in the eye but then bury them you know so sort of like you know address it deal with it but yet not share it or something like that you know so um I guess for me it's it's really kind of like in Hamilton when uh Aaron Burr tells Alexander Hamilton talk less and smile more and you know basically saying that you don't need to say everything that's on your mind you can you can keep things inside and sometimes things are better left unsaid so maybe that is the theme for me i also thought that i think kate at the end janeway has a line where she says i'm going to

take a break from fantasy now or something like that she's talking about her hollow program and i thought that was interesting because this idea of like the fantasy of her hollow program is where sort of her losing touch with what's fantasy, what's reality, like what was bringing up her issues of guilt with Mark and her partner from home, the one that she really truly loved, and yet there was this fantasy. And it reminded me, all of that together

sort of reminded me of this saying I heard, which goes something like, accept life as it truly is not as I would have it. The thing I love about that is like, there is a reality and sometimes we get in our heads a story for Janeway. It was a hollow novel or her guilt about Mark or her story that the ship could not run without her. There's so many stories and the truth was there was this alien that was playing around in her subconscious you know that was actually so I guess in a weird way that accept life as it truly is not as I

would have it is a great kind of theme. that I or a lesson that I got out of this episode in a way of like accepting these buried thoughts accepting reality as it truly is not the stories we put up around them like the Janeway line you know I'm going to take a break from fantasy fantasy yeah fantasy can be an escape and a break and a vacation sometimes but it can also be um an avoidance of dealing with reality or accepting reality and sure deflect to me yeah there was a lot of those kind of issues and and themes that I really appreciated in this episode. Awesome.

Okay. Well, that's our recap, unless you have anything else to throw in there. No. Okay. That was it. That is my feelings about projections. And I don't like that. It's not projections.

It's persistence of vision. That's what I meant. I was testing you. But the reason I mix up the titles. Let's keep this in the edit, please. Persistence of vision is the. real name. But the reason I got mixed up is because I'm very unhappy that Bolana cheated on me in her subconscious fantasy. I still am having issues. It is. It's really bugging me. Let's be

honest, it's really bugging me. I can tell it really messed you up. Yeah, I don't like it. All right. Well, thanks guys for tuning in for our recap of persistence of vision, otherwise known as projections. And we'll see you next week when we review tattoo. Thanks, guys. Bye.