The Delta Flyers - Return to Grace

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, Return to Grace, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and special guest Nana Visitor.Return to Grace: Dukat, demoted to freighter commander, and Kira join forces to restore Dukat's position by attacking the Klingons who destroyed a Cardassian outpost.We would like to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers, Megan Elise and Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, Nicki T, Roxane Ray, Tim Neumark, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Andrew Cano, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, Chris Garis, Sean T, & Cindy WoodfordOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Cindy Ring, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, David Wei Liu, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Andrew Duncan, Randy Hawke, Danie Crofoot, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Ryan Mahieu, Kevin Harlow, Megan Doyle, Keir Newton, Mariette Karr, Jeff Allen, Tamara Evans, & Deb LahrAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Maxine Soloway, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Robert Allen Stiffler, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Karen Galleski, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Timothy McMichens, Cassandra Girard, Robby Hill, Andrea Wilson, Slacktwaddle, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, Joshua Shields, Jim Poesl, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Shawn Battershall, Natalie Swain, Brian Heckathorne, Mark Johnson, Nelson Silveira, Ming Xie, Gordon Watson, & Andy BruceThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your hosts for today are my fellow Trek actors, Terry Farrell, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong, Of course, our very special guest, Nana, visitor. Hey! Nana! So excited to have you. I'm glad to be here, and it was fun to re-watch or actually watch this episode for the first time.

I don't think I ever saw it. Really? What? No, never saw this one. This is a big one for you. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah.

It's film noir. Let's face it. Yes. I just have one, Nana, I have one- Love this episode. One burning question. And it comes from Arman Bashir, which is not the episode we're talking about. But when you're playing the Russian gal, I loved it so much.

Was it your choice to say colonel, colonel, instead of saying colonel, where you pronounced it that way? Oh, yes. Coelel, was that your choice? Oh, yes. What was the old half-hour sitcom that was based? What was that? Hogan's heroes.

I got, you know, I got my horrible accent and colonel from that. Oh, God. Absolutely. But it was so sexy and dead on. It was funny, sexy. Yes. I love that episode. It was so fun.

Yes. We did too. Okay. Anyway, I just had to throw that out there. Thank you for answering that. Thank you. I'm glad you did. Yeah.

Brabby, I interrupted your last part of your intro. Do you just... Well, I was just going to remind everybody if they want bonus material and lots of more exciting stuff. You can sign up to patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers. Become a patron and get all the bonus. material all the after party conversation so check it out um also i want to say this podcast episode is going to be airing around the time that the finale of resident alien comes on and nana

was gracious enough to a couple weeks ago jump on a zoom with uh resident alien crew and do a do a a little cameo voiceover for playing the mom in an episode i was so glad that you could do Oh, that was fun. I still have my lines right here in front of me. That's funny. Can you do it in your voice from Arman Bashir, though? I'm sure I could, but I don't want to ruin the magic of the phone call. Oh, okay. Show. Yes.

That's pristine. Yes, it's right in the beginning of the show, the episode. It is our finale episode. You're making a phone call, and we put a little Easter egg in there. we kind of came up with some sci-fi humor, I guess you'd call it. Oh, nice. It was fun. Nanah, did you have fun doing that voiceover for Robbie's show?

I totally did. I so did. It was fun to work with Robbie, and it was fun just to improv and think about what could thrill people to hear. It's like, oh, my God, she said that. Oh, yes. That was fun. Oh, yay. I can't wait to see this episode.

hear your voiceover. Yeah. Awesome. What else is going on, Nana, in your life these days? Just fun, fun, interesting things. Django, my son is having a little girl in December. What? Oh, my gosh.

No. Won't that make you all feel old? Yes. Yes. The infant, yes. This is you and Sid's, this is you and Sid's offspring. And he's already having a child? He's having a child.

But after all, he is 28. So it's like, yeah, it's not like he's 18. I get it. But to me, he's still five. Opspring is such a weird word. Subunit. It's like something that sprang from me. It's like alien or something.

Jumped out of an egg. Like an insect just popped out or something. Django, the child of you and SIDS, right? You're in SIDS child. How's that? No, not offspring. Sorry. Son.

Is that your first grandchild? No, this will be my second granddaughter. I have a 12-year-old granddaughter named Andy. Oh. But Andy doesn't live close to you. And so this is going to be the first time you're actually in the same city as your big grandbabies being born and you're living it with them. And no, they don't call me and will never call me Nana or Nana. or anything like that.

What do they call you? What's your grandma name? Miss Visitor. Miss Visitor. No, what do they call you? Come on. There's a... Well, it's kind of badass what Andy calls me.

She calls me Ganga Mama. And that was her... Ganga Mama. Right? That's great. I like it. Okay. I like it a lot.

And, you know, they always choose. It's what comes out of their mouth, you know, and that's it. And it stays that way. You know what? It's been a great. Ganga Mama. Nana, you said ganga mama, right? Ganga Mama.

So that means you could have a complimentary YouTube channel. You have Mama Nana. Now you have Ganga Mama Nana. You talk about like dealing with grandchildren. Or just badass, harsh advice. Bad ass harsh advice. Like your punk rock side of who you are. That's right.

Because I've seen you do rock and roll in class. And Nana. He's pretty damn badass, I got to say. Bad ass, harsh advice. The acronym would be, Baja, B-A-A-A-H-A, just so you know. I think we have something here. You're all welcome to contribute.

Can you contribute to Baja? Yeah. All right. Thanks. We've got a birthday to talk about. It is A.J.'s birthday on August 28th. Happy birthday, A.J. Happy birthday, A.J.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday, A-J. Yay. Woo. do some poetry. Rob to me. Yes. No, no, you know, we do poems to summarize the experience of the episode in an art form

of poetry. I love it. Here is my poem for Return to Grace. Kira gets a Cardassian top secret conference invite. Duccott's her escort and gives her dinner by candlelight. Duccott's itching for a war. Kira doesn't want that anymore. or you've got to know when to give up the fight.

Oh. Yes. Oh. Well done. Thank you. Thank you very much. Very welcome. All right.

Here we go. Wait, you are not going to believe this. What? In honor of Nana doing our show again, I wrote a poem. You did? You did? I did. I have not done this in a year.

Oh, my God. Didn't I do it like the first six months? And then it was like, I got so freaked out. You did, you did. I'm just willing to fail now. So here we go. Let's do it. Dedicated to Nana.

Here we go. Let's hear it. Powerfully, she is grace. Locked in, never losing pace. Not for his constant admiration. Their situation, a mere complication. Focusing on a mutual enemy in no way gives him indemnity. His weak ego reeks of desperation as her honor leads with restoration.

Oh. Robbie, there shouldn't be any kind of hierarchy in this stuff, but I'm sorry. I know. I know. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Winner, winner chicken dinner. That's a golf clap, Terry. That was very nice.

Thank you. Well, wow. Thank you. I was feeling like I was reading it too fast. No, it was. nervous it wasn't good so I did so really good oh thank you beautiful you liked it on enough powerfully she is grace I love you're gonna like that first one yeah she had it she was that god the whole episode was just genius how they wrote your character and how you played it it was

synergy yeah all right thank you a little hycic haiku the most condensed form of poetry the most condensed form of poetry right here. Which is kind of what you are, Gawa. Thank you. You're the most condensed form of human being. I try. 17 syllables, correct? Is that right? It's 575. Yes. And you can test him. Here's my haiku for return to grace. Horma outpost gone. Kira fuels Dukot's revenge. new home for Zial Oh Nice Very nice

Yes I actually always Anticipated being funny Because that's what Garrett does a lot of times Does something at a left field And you're like, why? This one was more serious than funny

It was serious It was It was Teleplay by Hans Beimler Story by Tom Benko What? The editors Yes

Wow. Great story. He sold a story. Good for him. I'm very, I'm proud of Tom. Directed by Jonathan West, the DP, gets to finally direct an episode. First one, I think. First time he's directed, right?

Oh, my gosh, yes. I think so. And whoever, he was such a good choice for it because who put a DP to make some sense of that one basic room that we were in. Yeah. So much. And he did. He did some interesting stuff in there.

Yeah. Very well done. He sure did. Guest stars Mark Alamo as Golda Kott. Sia batten as Tora Zial. Now, Robbie, if you remember, when we had Armin on the show, Armin told us that Sia only did that very first episode where he saves her from the green prison camp,

and then she didn't continue. But evidently, she did continue. She did one more. One more, and then she stopped. So he was kind of right. The next appearance of Tora Zial is later in, this season, and that is played by Tracy Middendorf, the actress Tracy Middendorf. And then Tracy gives it up, and then seasons five and six, it's another actress. Yes, I know, and that's Melanie

Smith, who then portrays Zayal in six episodes throughout seasons five and six. I wish I knew the story, why that happened if she just got a job and went on. I thought she was so good in the episode. It was almost this naturalistic film kind of thing that was like, wait a minute, does that fit? And then I thought, yeah, it does really, really well. I loved her. So I don't know what happened. Yeah, I want to reach out. I want to reach out to her and ask her. I would love to. Because she guest starred on Voyager as well, Nana. So we kind of, you know, got to know her a little bit there. So I would love to know. Maybe it was a makeup. Yeah, that's what we're thinking. Yeah, that's what we're thinking. Right. Not everyone can, you know, acclimate to that type

of alien makeup all the time. We have Casey Biggs, of course, as Damar. This is Casey's very first appearance as Damar in this episode. Initially, Casey was very disappointed with the part, which he felt any extra could have played. But then director Jonathan West told Casey that the writers had big plans for Damar, and as such, West shot him as if he were a major character with plenty of close-ups and reaction shots.

Ah, there you go. Interesting. Very interesting. Yes. There were a lot of hero shots. of him. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That normally, if that were just a day player or somebody, you know,

and he would not have that control. No. Oh, no, no. He also was on Enterprise in the episode Damage as the Illyrian captain. And we have one co-star, and that's John K. Shull as Ketamong. That would be our Klingon

in this episode. He appeared in several episodes of TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Nice. A little bit of trivia. Tom Benko's original idea for this episode came from the question of what may happen if the Jews and the Nazis were forced to work together after World War II. So that's part of his story pitch and what they meant. Yeah. Now, in Hans Baimler's original teleplay, Dukot and Kira beam across to the Klingon ship. They overpower the bridge crew and subsequently pacify the entire

ship. Director Jonathan West felt that this was a slightly ridiculous conclusion that, viewers would never buy, one Cardassian and one Bajoran overpowering a ship of 60 Klingon warriors. West, however, was unsure what to replace the fighting with until assistant director B.C. Cameron suggested that Kira and Dakot beamed to engineering, take control of the transporters and switch crews. She and West approached Ira Stephen Bear, who wasn't entirely happy about losing the action-pack conclusion, but who acquiesced in the end. Oh, I thought it was a great idea. It was so clever. Like Kira could come up with such a tech solution to being.

It's what she says in the episode. She talks about, you know, when you're terrorists, you have to be creative. You have to think outside of the box. It's not a straight on action sequence, which I agree with Jonathan. I would have balked at that a little. Right. Just taking over that entire ship. But yes, Kira has to be a bit of a MacGyver, you know, to figure things out.

I love that part. Yeah. Sirak Lofton and Armand Sherman do not appear in this episode. Evidently, there was a deleted scene that Armand supposedly, or Cork goes to Cura, saying there's a Cardassian that owes me a lot of money from the bar. Can you please track him down when you're over in the homeworld? So that got nixed, obviously. Well, thank you for that trivia.

I always love your trivia. Well, thank you. I love that BC, an assistant director, was the one that pitched the transatlantic. transporter switch. Yeah, yeah. But that's also, I think, maybe B.C.'s knowledge of Trek because that is what happens in Star Trek 3, the search for Spock, the third Star Trek film. Kirk actually swaps.

Yeah, transport switches crews and then fires on his old ship and blows it up. So it's very similar. There it is. Like a little homage to that. So maybe B.C. had that in the back of her mind. I watched it twice. Oh, did you? Because I was like, what happened just now?

What did they just do? I did. I was like, I got to see that again. Well, it's also set up because, you know, you talk about the reason you're going to the conference that Kira's going is going is to share, you know. Intelligence. Intelligence and things like this, like Klingon transporter codes that Starfleet has that stuff. So, yeah. Okay.

I like this episode a lot. Yeah. Let's jump into it, too. Yeah. into it. So our first scene is in the infirmary. Kira's getting her vaccines, vaccinations, because she's going to this remote Cardassian outpost. I love this little detail with you and Sid. The banter was great. And you get your shots. There's a lot of shots, by the way. How many are there? Like 12 or something? She has 12 left.

12 left. Yeah. There's a lot. She has a lot left. It's a lot. And I love. Wharf coming in and looking at me as if I already have thrown up all over myself. Yes. Yeah. He's slightly disgusted by the entire thing. He does not want to be there. Yeah, you're going to this outpost for the conference. We do learn from the previous episode that you and Chukar are together, that there's

something, you know, real relationship. We just watched. How would that play today? The fact that I say someone high. up in the government, winds me and dines me to make me go and do this thing. I was like, whoa, that's weird. That's a little weird. That's a little 90s right there. It's definitely. Yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yeah. But it does show us, because the last episode we saw was, it's the one where Odo, Odo is basically in love with you, and Chakar comes on the ship. It is Crossfire. Crossfire. Crossfire.

Yeah. So, yeah, the last episode, Dinah, we saw. crossfire was when Shakar comes on the ship and YouTube this romance even though you were terrorists together this romance begins and it's just breaking Odo's heart and I loved the episode. I thought Renee did a phenomenal job and it was it was just heartbreaking to see Odo just suffering as you and Chakar are getting more and more romantic but but this carries that over which I love about your show that your your show unlike Voyager your show really continues these story threads in a great way. So, yeah, Shakar buttered you up, got you to agree,

and you're going to go share Klingon intelligence. And Worf comes in, says, you know what, you shouldn't share all the Klingon secrets and gives her this secret pad of things not to share, I guess. And as that happens, we see that she's getting a little sick. And I love your runoff to the bathroom. Oh, my word. Where is that bathroom?

I know, arms flailing. Arms were flailing. It was great. The bathroom is back in her trailer. There's no bathroom on the set. Bye-bye. Ran off the soundstage straight to their trailer. I love that physicality of your run, though.

I mean, I noticed it, and it was great. It was comedic and fun. It was urgent. She had a barf, you know? And we all know that feeling. We all know that. get to where you're going moment before disaster did you what kind of shoes did you wear on the show could you run like kit mulgrew on on voyager whenever kate had to run it was just it wasn't pretty

it wasn't the greatest run he did not have a good run but your run is great i could i could i can run in heels you can yeah because i'd have on a rake stage so oh yeah that's true i i can on a rake stage Yeah, that's a mean. What about being on point? Oh, terrible. That's just the worst. I wasn't great on point, but I did it. Yeah.

Of course you did. All that dance training pays off because your run out of the infirmary was amazing. That's amazing. She has control over her body most of the time. All right, we go to Keir's quarters next. Kira's packing up. Dukot arrives to escort her. And we learn here he's been demoted in Kardassia because of Zial.

His wife has left him, took the kids. But he says he doesn't blame Kira in this scene. It's his own fault. You know, he talks about how if someone had done that under his command, he would have done the same to them. So there is a little bit of integrity, I guess, that I was surprised by with Dukkah. you know he sort of takes responsibility is it is it that because is it is it is it integrity or the that he is completely ego driven and if he feels like you know he's got nothing to have

ego about he's just like a ground zero with the rest of us because i think that's the great arc that they do you go oh here you he's kind of a broken man and he's being more honest and he's thoughtful and he doesn't blame her. Oh, he's got a chance. This could be redemption. But then you see when he gets the chance to come back, it's all wrong. Yeah. Yeah. He does say at the end of this scene, he says, you know, I'll get back everything I lost. It's just a matter of time. So he does set up his, the drive in this scene. And Mark Alimo with the look in his eye, It's not a hopeful, happy thought.

It's a vengeful thought. Yes. You know, which is great. That's like some, because his face barely moves, but you know that's what he's thinking. Because his eyes tell you everything. Yeah. And it's so, he's so well written and he plays it masterfully. Yes.

There's times you're like, I really like him. I want to root for him. And then he ruins it. And you're, what? Which is perfect. That's so perfect. Yeah. He is a roller coaster ride.

Yeah. And so deceptive. Robbie, when you talk about the integrity that you see this rare integrity, it's also, let's just also keep in mind that Descartes has always had the hots for Kira. So everything he does is manipulative, I think, to try to make her join his bed in a way. Yeah. Right. So.

Well, yeah. And he's a nurse. So he's always aiming to come on top of all of it, right? He's the hero in his own mind. Yeah. We interviewed Mark for the podcast. We did. For guest interview.

And he did talk about how that idea of he's played a lot of villains and he said, I never play bad guys. I always, my characters think they're the hero of the story. Yeah. And that's how I played Dukai. Yeah. And that's what makes it so brilliant. Yeah.

Our next shot is out in space, and we get to see Ducotte's freighter ship leaving. I just got to say, this may be my favorite spaceship of Star Trek ever. It's so ugly. Isn't it weird looking? I love it. It's like a centipede. It looks like the game centipede. Remember the centipede game you play?

You got to shoot that thing as it's coming down. I wonder if they designed it from the video game. I'm sure they did. They were like, you know what? I didn't think of that, but you're right. Totally. Because it has this sort of also kind of leg. Yeah. Leggo we look. But you're right. It's an ugly ship. It's so ugly. It's my favorite ship. Like an antenna close up. Yeah. You micro focus on an antenna. It's seeing all the scales. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, off they go. They leave DS9. We cut inside to Keir's room, her quarters there. She's working a bunch of pads, doorbell rings, and she goes and hides a pad in a cubby hole. But it's the,

Oh, and I think that pad must have been the one that Worf gave you, right? That's what I was thinking. Right. That sounds right. Yeah. But nothing really ever happens with it, does it? No. No.

Well, because you never make it to the conference. Well, the conference has been blown to bits. You can never get there. That pad means nothing now. Well, Zia all comes in. Kira hugs are a nice, you know, reunion moment. Yeah. I did make a note in here.

And, and, Nanah, you were talking about. Cia, what's her name, Cia Batton? Cia Batton, I felt right out of the gate like she was so soft, it took me out tonally of the show a bit. Me too. And I know that you liked her a lot. And I grew to like her more in this episode, but in this scene, I was like,

wait, where's the energy? What's going on? Like, it didn't seem to match to me. It didn't. It was more of a film tone that she was doing. Yeah. Yeah. And it took me a moment,

but then I kind of liked it and how I say later I want to protect her. She does seem very vulnerable and not for our world. Yes. Yes, she does. So that worked.

100%. But I agree with you, Robbie. It did take me out. It felt just a little bit. I felt too soft. Yeah, it felt like acting more than naturalism and behaving. Because behaving can be soft,

but it will still have levels in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. of acting. Yes. That felt like it didn't go with the show to me. It had a big close-up. Big close-up acting. Yeah. You did not have that note when she first was introduced

as that character in that prior episode. You're fine with her acting there, correct? She didn't have much to do in the other episode. She did. She had a fight for her life, remember? Yeah. And she had to like, go ahead. Just shoot me, Dad.

If I can't be with you, I'm going to, you know, she had that one scene. But other than that, and that story, it felt like she needed to be this vulnerable, sacrificial lamb in a way. So I bought it in that. Whereas this, I don't know, it's not a big deal. It was just a small note, but I was just like, I did struggle initially with her.

It's notable, but it didn't bother me and it didn't pull me out. So I'm sorry. Also, it pulls me out when that's happening. It feels like someone's holding back. Yeah. And if she's that connected to Kira, it felt like that kind of thing. That wall would be dropped. Yes.

And if anything, the wall would go back up around the other people in the station, but not around another woman. She's never around women. Is she? I mean, she's on a ship with all the men. She's with her dad all the time, she says. I mean, that could do it right there. Yeah.

But if she added that layer. I felt a little bit like, but no, there's a connection like, oh, my gosh, another woman, I can, you're going to, you see me in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. I also felt like the softness felt a little bit like it was covering some. I was expecting her to turn on Carol later on, to be honest. It was so protective in the scenes with you, especially early on. Then I was like, it's not really her. It's not really her. She's hiding something and she's going to, she's going to turn on Kara, which wasn't what happened. But, but when you said it felt like act it yes this scene it got better for me you felt like a real person to me in this nana as kira i never

i'm never in a place where i go oh where's kira you are so you embody her completely so i'm right there with you but it wasn't the same yeah there was something in this scene in particular but it does it does get better for me basically terry yes if she should have been much more relaxed when she sees Kira because Kira's the reason why she's alive. Without Kira, Descott was going to kill her. You know what I'm saying?

So I feel like, yeah, she should have been this. I'm safe. This is the one woman, this is the one person who gets me. And if that layer was added, it would have been a more complete performance for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And especially that she was so harshly ostracized. Yes. Well, she says she wasn't welcome by the Cardassian. Right. Yeah. She says I wasn't welcome by the Cardassian. the Cardassians when I got back home.

So now I just go wherever my dad goes. He's my only family. He's all I've got. And that vulnerability. And it's too caught. But that vulnerability and that damage, then when you see a mother figure, a big sister, an auntie, there's, I mean, it's something that overwhelms you emotionally, the relief to have that support with you.

So I think instead of being that very airy-fairy kind of vibe, I think it would have been much more kind of the connection with you. I think it would have helped your story too, Nana. I think if that had been an actress who just had life, came alive when she saw Kira, for Kira to protect her and take her back to DS9 at the end. That could have helped the story about. Yeah, but I can see it a couple of different ways. I liked her performance because she did seem like she was in a shell,

but after all, that's what trauma does. And if this girl isn't traumatized, who is? Yeah, she was a prisoner for 10 years or whatever it was, right? That's true, too. And now she's traveling the world with Dukot as her father. She's all for sakes. So naturally, she's protecting herself. She can't find herself anymore.

She's just, oh, excellent point. And she's also one of the, she's who is she? Her identity, her self-identity. She doesn't know. Yeah, so I buy the behind-glass thing. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

All right. Well, now that we've completely unpacked the character of Zia, we'll move on. There's an alarm. Here's like, what is that? See a baton. If you're listening, we still love you. Please, don't be, yes. It's more about character.

Oh, it's not personal. No, no, no. And it's not an assassination on her either. Not at all. She was directed to do it. So we're... Yeah. Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer?

Oh, my gosh. So much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane. Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me. Yes. You know what doesn't belong in everyone's epic summer plans, though? What?

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This is a freighter. And Ziel says it's a battle drill. Yeah. And Kira, you know, rightly so, goes, wait, this is a freighter. Why are you having a battle drill? Of course, DuCott has to do some battle exercises. We cut up to the bridge.

The phasers are taking a long time to charge. We realize this is an exercise to blow up an asteroid. Not much of a threat. But it's a target. Yay! We get to blow something up. He just wants to. He's mad, though.

It took a long time to get these phasers warmed up. And we meet Casey Biggs for the first time on the show. Yay. What a handsome Cardassian. What a handsome Cardassian? He's such a handsome man. It's ridiculous. You can't even put makeup on him to make him ugly.

He's so, I mean, seriously. That dirty devil. It's the cover of GQ for Cardassia. Yeah. That's in my missing scene. Okay, let's go. I did notice, though, Casey, in this Cardassian makeup, more than once I saw him kind of he was talking and then he would do this.

Like, I don't know if the nose was bothering him. I think he was itchy. I think he was itchy. Well, it's latex. And I have an allergy to latex, or sensitivity anyway. And it makes you feel itchy when you have a sensitivity. I saw it a few times in the episode. I was like, oh, first time with that makeup on, better get used to it, Casey.

And even in this first episode, you see how his character. character really doesn't like Kira. We had very little to do together, but the way he would look at my character, it was like, oh, you just don't want her here. You're one of those, Cardassians. You don't want to be alone with him. Yeah. Interesting, because we don't know.

Gary and I do not know where Casey's character goes. No clue. I have no idea. So it's interesting what you're saying. I don't. Terry. I don't. I love it.

Well, because I didn't really work with him. Right. And you know when I know him outside of makeup, so it never really clicked who he was and what part of the story. Well, you're going to see, Terry. I'm so excited. I'm going to see together. What?

Kira does suggest using the anodyne capacitor to speed up the phaser, the phaser loading, and DuContas just snaps at her. He's like, We don't have that. He's very, we don't have one of those. He hates this freighter. He wants to be in a warship. But then he apologizes for snapping at her and turns it around.

He invites her to dinner. It's like it's, you know, traditional for the captain to host a guest. So Kira agrees, far be it from me. I'm telling you, my butt cheeks squeezed when that happened. I would like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, don't go. Don't go. I think she only agreed because she looked back at Zia. And Zial was like, please have dinner with my papa.

And she's like, fine, I'll do it. Yeah, she can handle him. Okay, so we're in the state room. Dinner is happening. Guess what, Bajoran spring wine is on the menu, something that Kira did not expect to happen. Last bottle. So they have a nice little conversation.

But Dakot immediately starts playing these little mind games, talking about Shakar, you know, oh, what's this I hear about this guy, you know? Well, it looks like you like powerful people. And it just, it's the beginning of him trying to Just trying to lure her. Manipulate her to come over to his side. It's a constant battle.

I really like the way Kira just keeps eating. It's like this is a good meal. I'm taking advantage. Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to keep going, but I'm having this stuff. I was trying to figure out what you guys were eating. Thank you. I was trying to figure out what you were eating.

It looked like melon slices or something. I couldn't tell what it was. I couldn't either, and I don't remember, but it sure looked like shrimp or something that I had to unpeel. I was peeling something. It could have been. Yeah, shrimp would make sense. Yeah.

Yeah, Cardassian shrimp. We love it. So, Chikar is definitely someone that Dakota's jealous of. He talks about the intelligence file that he kept on him during the occupation is filled with reports of his conquests in bed. And I'm thinking, really? That's in your intelligence report? That's a little weird, right?

Why? Why is that there? It's what Kara thought, too. Yeah. There's another alarm at the end of this. Another alarm, but this is not a battle drill. So they leave and head for the freighter bridge or the, what would you call it, the centipede bridge? Yes, yes, please.

Yes. Love the centipede ship. Yeah, they head off to the bridge and they have arrived at the outpost, but we realize they scan, they realize it's been destroyed. There's not a single life sign. Everybody's dead. And then suddenly this Klingon ship uncoaks and Dukot. I literally said when it uncloked. I love this.

It uncloked. And I said out loud as I'm watching Klingons. And then he repeated. Me too. Did you really? Yes. I did. That's so funny.

Like pride that I know exactly who they were. Yes. And he might as well have gone Klingons. Yes. Clings. That would have been great. We should record every Star Trek actor saying that. Cons and just do a montage of us.

Oh, that'd be hilarious. And he did it pretty perfectly. I don't know that any of us could top the way he did it. He got it. He was good. So the Clingons are now scanning the Centipede ship, and they realize there's no threat from the Centipede ship because they enjoyed playing Centipede on the Clingon Home World as well.

That's one of their favorite video games. Who doesn't know Centepeed? And Gallagia. And Gallagia. What about Donkey Kong? Donkey Kong was fun too. Just came out last night, new game. What?

A new donkey Kong? Donkey Kong. New Donkey Kong? And how do I know? How? Because you have a son. Max Baker. Yes.

Who said, mom, can I have a treat? I'm like, yes. Your gaming son? Okay. Yes. He started playing it last night. I love it. I love it.

He's like over the moon. Awesome. Awesome. So basically, they, the Klingons turn around and they start they start leaving they power down their weapons they don't even have their shields on. DeKot thinks this is absolutely an affront to him yes so he's right to laugh he's ready to fire phasers and Kira is the voice of reason like what are you doing this this is a centipede ship

it does nothing to anybody okay so please don't fire on him I mean this is going to just ask for trouble this is not the right time this is not the fight choose your battle wisely. Daqat doesn't care. He fires, and sure enough, that phaser does absolutely nothing to a Klingon ship that doesn't even have shields on. It's very embarrassing. And then that's when the Klingon ship turns

around. Dakot's now scared. You know, put everything into the shields. And as the Klingon ship starts to bear down upon the centipede ship, it just veers off. And that's it. It just goes to warp. That was a nice shot. It was so, wasn't it?

Coming at them and just going right over. It's so like, you're nothing. Yeah. Everyone's hair should have blown like the, like, as they went over like that on the bridge. Whoa. Like the Max L ads. Yes.

Yeah, like the, yeah, you remember those ads. Yeah. The cool guy. The Maxel ads. Sitting in the chair with everything being blown back. Yeah. For the young people. And the sounds just like, bam.

Right. For the young people listening in the 80s, Maxel cassette tape. had these magazine ads super cool yes and it was a great graphic it captures the 80s perfectly yeah a big speaker right he's sitting across from the speaker

right and he's leaning back and his hair's going back so the sound is just penetrating him and moving through him yeah but his ear is like moving with the sound right yeah it goes with the sound it's like air yeah yeah and that's why so many of us

have hearing problems I love that you called back that ad, Terry. What a sense memory of that ad. Isn't it beautiful? It brings back an era. It does. Just the thought of seeing the Klingon ship come overhead and then cut right back to the bridge of both of Dukat and Kira and Kira sitting there with their hair blown back like the ad. Yes.

Very funny. I love it. Well, Kira does say she's got an idea. They can make sure the Klingons don't get away with this. And they can use one of the remaining disruptors from the outpost and make some alterations and put it on the freighter. And that's her, that's her idea. How many genius ideas does she have in this, though? A lot.

There's a lot. Amazing. It's so great. They give you so much power. My old freedom fighter days come into play as I try to teach him to stop thinking like a, you know, like a bureaucrat. Yeah, and it looks like you're, you know, willingly helping him until we have to remind ourselves, you also have a stake in your own survival with this crazy guy who's a lunatic shooting at birds of prey. There were Bajorans. There were Bajorans and Kyrgyzans. I mean, and Cardassians.

Why I wouldn't care about that. Right. That got killed. So, you know. But even so, what Kira has been through for you to, for you to, to even stand in the same room, same ship with him on this avoid, is just a remarkable growth for Kira. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, it is. All right. So they're in the cargo hold right now. They're standing there. They're looking around. And Dekot's very skeptical because he says these disruptors, they weren't meant to be on a ship. They're meant to be on land. They're massive. So there's a lot of recoil, like what are they going to do? And Kira becomes McGiver again. We clear out the entire cargo hold. We stick the disruptor in here. And he's like, well, what do we do with the cargo? He's like, get rid of it. Just dump it all. And he's like, uh, okay. Well, and she has to remind

him, I, look, I get it. You make a percentage off the cargo, but this is not the time to hold on to the old traditions. We got to let it go. Correct. Correct. Yeah. He's very impressed with you at the end of this. I've got a lot to learn from you is what he says. Okay. Well, He sure does. He has way more than he realized. Don't we all? I'm just saying. We all have a lot to learn from Kira.

Right. But that was a very vulnerable moment for Dukat. That was like, wow, I'm even buying it. Yeah. Yeah, it did seem sincere. Yeah. It did. Mark Olima did a nice job of, of, he's really good.

That is what's amazing. Isn't it amazing? It is amazing. And you guys are an amazing team on this. You know what I noticed this time? I can understand why they wanted to put us together. I mean, basically, because it's almost like music. He's like this, you know, slow undertone in his speech.

And I'm staccato, and it's kind of interesting together. Yeah. The symphony of music that you two make. Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, I get it. Yeah. Back on the bridge, they're testing the disruptor on an.

asteroid like they did before with the phasers. Asteroid goes boom. But Kira's not happy. It needs some improving because there's some plasma leaks and the recoil, things like that. So they go to repair the plasma leaks and Kira works on her pads and things like that. While Dukot just her pads. Her consoles and pads. Yes. On the computer. Right. Computer stuff. Which which was brilliant because I noticed this. that it gave Jonathan the opportunity to not only get us in different positions in one scene with very limited, you know, it was all kind of just dark,

but it also made Dukot follow Kira, keep following her. And that was, so I went, oh, that's why I've got a pad. It's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice because I noticed in this scene, his eyes were on you constantly. He was just following.

following you and delivering right to you, and you were not paying attention. You were doing your job, and it made for a nice contrast, as opposed to just standing there, looking at each other, talking would have been deadly. Yeah. And I liked the darkness. It was a rich. I loved it too. Yeah.

It was so rich and deep, not only what you guys were going through, making it happen, but just the energy being dark. and kind of creepy, and at the same time, weirdly safe, because it didn't feel cold. Yeah, yeah. Literally, it was so film noirish. Mm-hmm, really. I love that.

Yeah. There's some nice banter in here back and forth, definitely between Dakot and Kira, and there's a lot of, you know, again, Dakot trying to get into the mind of Kira and sort of saying that Chakar is not that great. of a guy saying, I can't believe you're... He's a lumbering, simplistic field hand is what Descartes calls Shakar, because he's so jealous and he wants to be Mr. Kira that he wants to say everything against Shakar. Yeah.

Thank God. But he says they make an excellent team, you know, and he brings this up more than once in the episode. What a great team they make. Right. And she's not interested in being teammates with him. No. And she calls them out and says, all you care about it?

is your position with the Cardassian government, basically. This is all ego-driven. So she sees it. She's calling him on it. I thought you did a great job, Nanaugh, in this. Thanks. She says, shuts him down.

Duncan Rigaire. He's awfully handsome. That's what you said that in the prior episode. Do I? Yes. So in the prior episode, I'm really big. I call like six foot four.

Six foot four. When Terry said, he's so handsome. In the prior episode, there is a scene where Dax says, yes, he's so handsome. He's so good-looking. Why didn't you tell me he's so good-looking? And to me, I said, this is like a WB teen angst episode. And it was so, there was no sci-fi involved. It was all Odo, like, oh, my God, I wish I could be just like Shakar and date Kira.

And it was so sad. He could. He could have done that. But he didn't, he didn't stand up and say, I love you. You know, he should have said something. So that was my... But I mean, he could transform himself into anything. He could, he could transform himself into anything.

But he just couldn't get the faces down. I guess that's what we were led to believe. He can do a perfect eagle or something. Right. But yeah, human face. But yeah, he can't do a human face. All right. I wonder if that has something to do with his own reflection of who he is.

So if he doesn't know exactly who he is, maybe he can't project. Yeah. Very insightful, Terry. I like that. I wish there was an episode where Odo decided to transform himself into Fabio to impress. Oh, my gosh. And then Fabio could have guest started. He goes, hello, hello, Kira.

How about Dolph? Lungren. How about Dolf Lungren? Both have like German accents. She can do that too. She can do anything. All right. All right.

So we're on the bridge. She shuts him down, says, stick to business. All you care about is yourself. And she goes back to work. He goes back to test the weapon. So he tried. He did, he did. We are now in the stateroom, and Kira is showing Zial all the pluses and minuses of the two weapons that she is, you know, kind of displaying.

Cardassian and Starfleet. Yeah, a little bit of trivia here. Kira's analysis of the Starfleet Type 3 phaser rifle versus the Cardassian Disruptor rifle. mirrors the real world debate in military circles between the American M-16 and the Soviet AK-47 rifles. That is super cool. It is super cool. It really is. I have a really, I mean, it's so, I, watching that scene, I went, oh, that's probably, it was, in some, I don't know what game it is.

Oh, my gosh, finish your sentence, I'm dying. It's, in some game, five years ago or something. Star Trek Online? Star Trek online, maybe? No, I don't think so. No, it was another game. It had nothing to do with Star Trek. Oh, sorry.

I play an arms dealer where I describe all these weapons. And I did it in my house, you know, with the equipment because it was during the pandemic. Oh, I remember this now. Yeah. Because I was back in that apartment. And I feel so bad because it was so hard. And it was like, what weapon? I have to say, what about this one?

It took me forever. And I thought, maybe they saw this scene in Star Trek and thought, oh, she'll be good at this. Yeah, right. You were good at this. Oh, I remember. It was COVID. It's when I was bringing you guys bread. Yes, it was that house.

Yes, it was that house. That's right. And I remember just things. That they mailed it to you. Yeah, when I did all the, the motion sensor stuff, all by my... Oh, you did all the motion capture? I did it. Oh, and I was having a massive breakdown going, I don't know how to work all these computers

that they sent me. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, but I think they saw this scene and went, she's perfect for this. You were great in this. Yes. You were great in this, you described the... Not in the game, poor, poor guys. Basically, the Cardassian rifle is like a tank, but it's very simple.

And the Starfleet rifle is super high-tech, more powerful, but more complicated. Yeah. And I'm setting her up to protect herself if we get boarded. Yes. So it's amping up the tension of this is truly, this is going to be bad. Mm-hmm. I didn't feel that urgency, though. You did?

I mean, I've seen helped amp that up. Yeah, I mean, it gave me the information. Yes, they could be boarded, but I didn't feel like... The fear from her, from Zial. Yeah. Yeah. Robert, you may mention about the Starfleet weapon being more powerful. It is actually the Cardassian weapon that is a little bit more powerful than the Starfleet one.

I just want to throw that out there. What? Federation standard. Oh, it's a little less powerful. It's got more options. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why it.

More options means more chances to mess up is what it means. Yeah, got it. Right, but also it means the Kardashians want to just kill someone with it and we have options to stun you to, right? There's, we have all these other, we don't necessarily want to kill everybody.

I like the tickle setting. The tickle setting. Tell you a bed time story. Little fantasy play. I wish we could have seen. Wow, Starfleet weapons There's also fan mode Very diverse

Fan mode When you blow air on you With your weapon It's so amazing Yeah Back massage All right But Zial

But Zial does tell Kira in the scene Zial says You don't like my father Like she could finally That to me was really The heart of this scene Right

Yeah And Kira says Yeah He did a lot of bad things You're honest with her And Zial points out everybody did bad things, even you did bad things, like it was a war, which I think landed on you. I thought the argument, the debate that you have here about morals and justice and all that, I thought it was a good, it was a well-written scene in that level. And she did a great job, and so did you.

I liked it when I got to the meat of it too. Yeah, because it reminded me that Kara did things she regretted and or not maybe, I don't know, more complicated you're sitting here right. Sometimes it's a necessary evil to kill someone, but it stays with you as our characters discussed in an episode. I can't remember it was the first or second season, but yeah, that she has to live with that. And it's, I think even just, it's just natural, easier to look at someone else and say, you cross the line, forgetting when you actually, yourself, crossed the line. Well, but there's also, there's also the power dynamic that you go, well, but Jorans were just defending themselves. Yeah. You say that in the scene.

You know, so that's true. They were the aggressor. yes that's totally different okay and ziol ziol corrected because that's so true that is true ziol does say that uh that her father regrets the thing you know he feels bad about those things yeah i love that line uh when zi al says but when i look at my father i have a hard time seeing a murderer and kira says and when i look at him i have a hard time seeing anything else so some nice uh yes and doesn't that just hit the nail on the head Hans was just such a great writer.

Mr. Beimler. He certainly wrote great for you. He had your voice. He really multi-layered for sure. Yes, yes. Kira does say at the end of the scene, she's never going to forgive Dukat. Right. She just won't.

And let's focus on the rifles. Let's get back to these rifles. Mm-hmm. Yeah, nice scene. We go back to the bridge. Kira Dukot are trying to decide where the Klingon ship might go next. You're looking at maps and all this stuff. Ducotte says Leval is the perfect spot.

And clearly they've got better intelligence than we thought because they knew about this conference and that outposts. We also find out LaValle is a secret weapons manufacturing plant from Ducat. Yeah. So that would be the perfect place for them to go next. And Kira says, well, we've got to lure them in. We've got to figure out a way to lure them in. then we can take one good shot.

And Dukot says, well, we could modify our subspace transceiver to emit a false dilithium crystal signal. So they're brainstorming here. They're workshoping together. And they do workshop well together. Yeah. Yeah, they're a good team. They're great spitballers and they're doing it. Yeah.

Well, and they know what they're talking about. Yeah. And each one is enhancing the others. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Intelligence, information. Yeah. Yeah.

Kira agrees. He again says, see, we make a good team. So he keeps beating that drum. He's trying to convince her. He does better if he'd take his foot off the pedal. Yeah. Yeah.

Play a little aloof, for goodness sakes, man. Stop saying how great of a pair we make. Stop it. Take it in stride. Take it in stride. He says something like, you've got to learn to take a compliment. And she says, oh, I can take a compliment.

Just not from you. From you. I have a hard time accepting compliments from you. Yeah. Little time passes. We're at LaValle, this secret weapons place. They do modify the signal for the dilithium things. And we're waiting.

Dukot is bored. He's leaning back in his chair. He's bored. He talks about Golmarat, who was a ladies man, compares him to Shakar here. Just a smooth talker. I'm going to send him to the... the icy cold of brein if he ever gets, you know, if Duccott ever gets any power back, he's going to take care of that Gull Marat.

Because he believes Gull Marat is sleeping with his wife right now. That's why, so. Right. Yeah. Which sort of reminds us that Gull Ducat has evolved. He may be growing and evolving in some ways, but he's still pretty unevolved in a lot of ways, too. Yeah. And most of them.

Well, I think he's evolved in that he's not going to kill Gull Marat. He's just going to send him to Siberia. So that's kind of evolved. He's not murdering him. Well, yes. He's not in front of him right now. Right. So that might change when he sees him in person.

Yeah. Yes. Think about the end. Yeah. Okay. Kling on ship de cloaks. Well, he's talking. This worked.

This plan seems to be working. And we get some cool space shots. I like the CGI ships. We talked to Brian Fisher, who was a visual effects guy on DS9 during this time and how these CGI ships were, you guys were cutting edge.

All of these ships, the Defiant, these Clingon ships, you were going from models into CGI. And I thought this particular shot really amplified that. Yeah. Oh, and Robbie, was that at the beginning of the fourth season? Because weirdly, someone asked me over the weekend when we switched and I'm like, I think it's the fourth season because I remember Robbie's saying something. I think Garrett, was that what Brian was saying? It was right around here. Yeah, I mean, it's literally the, when did, when was the defiant introduced? Was it season three or is it season?

Yeah. Is that sound right? Three. It was the end of three. End of three then probably. Yeah. They started making that. Yeah, it was when the defiant came out, that was one of the first ships. They went to pure CG and then they started converting everything to CG. So what's crazy. The knob. Brian Fisher was just an intern. He just got this intern job. And he sat down and he literally figured out how to how to code everything so it could be CG. He wasn't getting paid. He couldn't even, he wasn't getting paid. He couldn't even flag down the main guy, right? InVis effects, like the guy was ignoring Brian entirely. And so he showed another colleague. He was like, look, look what I just did. And the guy goes, you've got to talk to the supervisor. And so they showed him. And the guy comes over. And he was like, holy shit, you just. did this? And he's like, yeah, I just did this. He goes, okay. And he got a job that day. He was like, yeah, you're hired. It was an amazing show. Wow.

Yeah, young, young intern boy. Isn't that amazing? That's a great Hollywood story. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of... For anything, right? You can create it for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we see the Klingon ship is there. They did lure them in. The Klingon scan them. They pop on screen. A Klingon named Ketamang. I don't know how you pronounce it.

Sure. Ketamang. Ketamang. Get a mong, Ketamang. That thing. Yeah, that guy. He asked what, what's your cargo? And Dukot says, oh, it's just replicator,

transporter parts, no big deal. So he's lying. Or, well, he's. Purpose playing apart. Exactly. Yeah. The Klingon says, you're lying to me. And he says he's going to confiscate their entire cargo and the whole ship.

Oh, the ship. Yeah. The whole shabang. Take everything. Robbie, I want to see you playing a Klingon. I know, right? That was really great. We could be Klingon brothers together, actually.

I don't know if I could say a whole new show. I don't know if I could talk like that. Although Dorn doesn't talk like that. No, we could be like the Klingon. You're doing that's like the original series, Klingon. Yes, exactly. Robbie, you and I are a Klingon odd couple, a Klingon comedy. A Klingon comedy.

Yes. Oh, my God. No one's done that. me, you guys. Come back to me. Paramount Plus presents. No. The odd couple, Klingon style. You do not want to wear that makeup.

No, I don't. So they're tractoring them in. It's getting closer, closer, closer. And then they fire, direct hit, knock out the Klingon engines. It's dead in the water. It worked. This big disruptor shot.

They call for shields up. And then the Klingons fire back. And on this freighter, it's not made for this kind of battle. So it is a big hit, good action stuff. I think maybe somebody says, oh, Damar says both shields are down to 20 percent. We cannot take another hit. So that's it. It's like we're a semi and the Klingons are a tank. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So we're not even a semi. It's a centipede ship, remember. Yes. It's a U-Ha. You're in a U-Haul. against a Sherman Tank.

That's the difference. Yes. Ducat does say, I think it's time to improvise, which means he and Kira clearly said, what do we do? We're going to beam over. We're going to beam over to the Klingon ship, and they start, you know.

And again, this is the original story idea. They're supposed to beam over and beat up all 60 Klanons. But instead, they beat up two, which is much more realistic. Makes much more sense. Much more sense. Yes, 100%.

They're in engineering. And did it well. Kira and did it well and did it well Kira knows exactly what to do and she knows the Klingon transporter codes and I just I have one question I don't know if you guys notice this but as Dukot and Kira beam in

and the Klingan stands up I think Dukot fires at the Klingon and shoots right in his Klingon privates I did not literally notice that yes he shoots him he doesn't shoot him in the chest or the shoulder

it is literally in the hoo-ha. It's right in the hoo-ha? You can see the actual beam going at the... Go back and look at it. I'm going to go back to see if his hoo-ha is hit. I'm telling you, that's where they're most vulnerable. That's too-od.

Low-blow. He plays dirty, the low-blow. So the symbolic, Robbie, symbols. Yeah. Smart move. Take them out in the privates. And then Kira goes to work on this console. We don't know exactly what she's doing.

Give me a minute. And back on the Klingon bridge, they're about to destroy the freighter. Yes. And blow it up when suddenly they transport off their Klingon bridge and onto the freighter bridge. They're faced the wrong way. It's very funny. That is good. Pira switch the cruise.

And Dukot decides to hit the fire button now and blows the freighter up, killing all the Klingon's. Dirty, dirty move. Yes. Yes. Yes, and Kira says, was that necessary? You're the terrorist, you tell me. Yeah.

Good writing. All right, so they've destroyed the freighter and all the Klingons are dead. Kira's not happy about it, but she does find all the Klingons plans for their priorities for the fleet, all the Klingon fleet. So they know what the Klingons are planning. And Dukot is thrilled with this. He feels like he's won the prize. he wants to speak to the chairman of the Depecounsel himself he thinks he'll regain all of his status which is what he said in the very beginning that first scene he says i'm going to reclaim everything

but you see the egotistical mania that he's in yes he says all of this yes it's vengeance it's you know i'm going to get i'm going to get back and get everybody it's that kind of craziness yeah well a little we're on the bridge of the Klingon ship with all of our Cardassian and Starfleet friends. DeMarre, Casey Biggs, goes to help Ziaul with some repairs and leaves. And there's a great reveal of Ducotte in the dark in this sort of doorway silhouette.

I thought that was one of my favorite shots of the series. It was so cool. Okay. Very cool. He's not happy because the council does not want him to fight anymore. And he's pissed about it. And he basically feels like he's the only Cardassian left that wants to fight. They've all gone soft, and he'll just have to do this all himself.

So his ego is just off the charts at this point. Well, yeah, he's, they gave him back his position, right? They gave him back his position to be the head of the military, military advisor, but they don't want to go to war. So what's the point of him having this all back? because they basically castrated him. Yeah. It's a shell of the former job, right?

Yeah, exactly. So it's just a, what would it be? It's just a position in title alone. That's it. Yeah. Title only, right? We're just going to keep you quiet over there. Yeah, you can do paperwork.

Right. Kira tries to talk him out of this fight. Dukot is very passionate, though. He's ready to fight for a true cause. And he says, I need you. We are a great team. again he's like yeah we've got to stay together and she says no and he says i know you're a fighter you're not a bureaucrat yeah you're meant to do this yeah join yes join me yeah it's a wonderful

speech it's a great speech it is especially if he were a had good character it would be great yeah yeah he says i know there's a part of you that or there's a big part of you that's saying no no no but there's a little part that wants to do this and listen to that part. What's great when he's talking to Kira, is that you're not sure. You can't read what you're thinking. So it's like, where is she going?

Yeah. Did you feel that way, Nanah, when you were watching it, that you were playing sort of this being torn? I did. I felt very much. It was great for us because we didn't know what you were thinking. Yeah. I was watching this man spin, spin out.

I was that that's what I was doing and knowing where it will lead probably and knowing the the horror and yeah I don't think that I in for me I was never going wow is he right well I read into that maybe it's just the lack like you were mostly listening I read into that because his speech was so convincing maybe he's going to do this maybe she is yeah so So into this next scene, when we go in the corridor and Ziel's got this knife, and she's like, hey, practice knife fighting with me. And you drop her to the floor. Stay out of a fight if you want to live. It was Damar who showed her this little trick of how to a knife fight. But of course, this instruction was faulty, clearly, because not good. Yeah.

Well, you drop her to the floor and you're like, just stay out of a fight if you want to stay safe. and you're not ready for this. That's actually, it became a pretty well-known line. The best way to stay out of a knife fight is to never get in one. But Kira does agree that Zial needs her help because Zial's saying, I need you to train me

because if this ship gets boarded or I have to fight beside my father, I need to know how to do this. Wait, I need to go back because I misquoted the line that people will know it's the best way to survive a knife fight is to never get in one.

Oh, that's it. There you go. That is the line. I'm looking at it now. Do you feel cleansed? I feel cleansed. I do too. Because you know the fans,

the fans will say. That's not it. That's not it. That's not it. Well, in last weekend, because I watched the episode on the plane ride to New Orleans, I, Nanah signed something with that quote on it.

And I was like, that is so clever. I saw that in a movie. What movie did I say that man? I'm serious. I was not thinking deep space nine at all. And then they're like, I saw it on the plane. I saw it on the plane. That's hilarious.

That's so stupid. Nana's so amazing. For each fan, she has a random movie quote that she writes down on every, every photo. Do you like that? Seriously. I did think, though, at the end of this scene, Nana, when she says to you,

whatever it takes, I'll do it, but I'm going to need your help, that it was a bit of a light bulb moment for Kira because she came off that conversation with Dukot where she's, we haven't gotten an answer from her yes or no. And in this moment, it's like, no, I know what I need to do.

That's how I read this performance. It was her aha moment. It was an aha moment. Yeah. I think that is where I went. She should not be here. She should not be here and neither should I. Like we need to go back to a better life.

This is not where we belong. And this is why I'm really here. Yeah. I'm really here to save this girl. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Well, the next scene is back on the bridge.

Kira explicitly says no to Dukot. she says she's been in this fight before she talks about how it eats you alive and she doesn't want to do it she doesn't want that anymore but you do get i like that you were um able to think about complicated things that kira was able to think about complicated things and say this is not for me it eats me alive but i get why i get why you need to do this it was honoring both herself and honoring him in a way even though you hate him yeah yeah You can't stand the man. They're truth.

It's his truth. And she's in her truth. And they don't go together. Yeah. Kira does sort of fight for Zial's survival as well. That's when she says, look, this is not the life for Zol. And Dakot's like, wait, why are you so concerned about? And Kira says, because I see myself in her.

And I don't want her to go through all the things that I had to go through, all the experiences and all the horrible things that I had to see, basically. I want her to be away from that. That's interesting when Garrett just said that. It hadn't occurred to me before. But when Kira says, I see myself in her, this soft, innocent, vulnerable, Zial character we've seen, is that how you imagined Kira before the, oh, I never thought about that. I just thought she was always strong and tough.

No. No. Yeah. That's exactly what I thought. Yeah, Kira's born before the occupation began. So, of course, she had her mind before that, yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

That's profound. Yeah. DeKat's actually shocked that you've even made that offer to bring her to the station. But it has to bring it to a creepy note, of course. Of course he does. Where now we are connected forever. Oh, like we have this child together. Yeah.

Oh, that was confusing. Yeah, you guys get back to DS9 on the bridge. Dukot's saying goodbye to Zial. And he does say, well, now we're tied together, whether you like it or not, tied together forever. Whether you like it or not. It does get creepy there. Yeah. And why tied?

Whether you like it or not. I'm tied you up. Yeah. And that's when curious is that really pleases you, doesn't it? DeCott says, pleases me, major. It gives me reason to live, which is even more creepy. It's like, oh, yeah. He just delivers it so perfectly.

He does. He does. I love his voice, too. His voice is so powerful as Dukot. It's just, it's like his evil is syrupy sweet, honey. It comes off like honey out of his voice. Yeah. His speech and articulation.

And all of that is so polished. And it's funny because. Yes, it's lovely. It's just lovely. It's like music the way he speaks. Yeah. Tone and quality of his voice is excellent. Right.

Because he doesn't play the villain. You see what I'm saying? He plays officers. He's so calm. That's the way it works. Some actors who have voices like that can use that as their performance. Yeah. You know, and just have that be their performance.

But he's got. that voice and he is emotionally present in there the whole time so he's so he's like you know when you see shakespearean actors and they're really great yes and it's like not just parroting the words yes he's like that i can't believe we had him in our show he's so amazing yeah fans have asked me recently at conventions who are your favorite you know characters uh and other than listing series. Regular as I always say Dakot. I throw Dakot in there every time. He's a really, who I admire.

Yeah, who does well, who I think is, who are effective on this show. And he's definitely one of those actors. And to refer back to what Garrett was saying before, Mark Alignment grew up in Wisconsin, I think. Tough life, blue collar from all I could gather from our conversation, on a path to trouble.

Yeah. And then the theater and this particular theater teacher, professor, person at a community college or something, got him doing Shakespeare scenes. That's what it was. So he didn't come to that speech, that style of speech because of Wisconsin in a tough life. He came through Shakespeare and this community theater professor, and he did a lot of Shakespeare. He worked at it.

Yeah, you can feel that polish that Shakespeare work gave him. Yeah. Storytelling, it saves lives. It really does. It does. Art, right? Any form of art. Yeah.

It saves lives. Yeah. It does. Well, Kira saved Zial's life, and they are watching the bird of prey fly away and leave. And here it goes to show her quarters when Odo approaches a bit confused. What's going on? And Kira says, I'll tell you all about it later. And Odo, they walk off, and it's a nice high, wide shot.

Jonathan West did a great job to finish. episode with a beautiful shot of the promenade. There you go. That's our episode. Okay. There is return to Greece. Excellent. Excellent job, Nana.

Yes. Really good episode. Not surprised because that's the champion work you bring every episode, but this episode was so much fun to watch you in. It was really uplifted for me by the actors. This is an acting episode. This wasn't shot making or clever writing. In my opinion, it was all about the performance of you and Mark Alamo.

Yeah, good, good job. Good job in this app and also great job. Thank you. A great job on Arm Ambyshire. Anytime I feel bad or depressed, I'm just going to watch your performance in Arm Ambersch. I love that episode. Your Russian spy. Colonel, come on and off.

Colonel, yeah. And there's this later in the thing where you're wrestling because you're trying to, you're trying to shoot all the other, you know, a holiday characters because that's the game. Yeah. But they can't die or else they really die in real life. But at one point, Sid's grabbing you, and you go, oh, you make this really sound? You went, oh, like that, which puts me on the floor every time.

I'm like, dang. It took me so long to understand the dirty. It was like, oh, my name is dirty. Oh, I didn't even get that. Yes, I know. That's how all the Bond films are. They're all dirty names. So anyway, great job, great job in this episode and that episode.

I just had to give you kudos for that. Thank you. Thank you. Let us talk about the theme or lesson that we take away from this episode, starting with Robbie, and then we'll go to everyone else. Go ahead, Robbie. The lesson I got from this is Akira lesson, and it's you've got to know when to stop fighting. Okay. There's time to fight, and there's a time to stop fighting, and she had that choice, and I think, chose.

the right thing okay Terry strong boundaries strong hold strong that was mine oh seriously that's what you're that's what care did seriously how to work with someone like that when you have to you have strong boundaries yes and go no and go no i don't like him no no no i don't like you and you don't like you and you you did it with grace. Yes, you did. Yeah, because that's what strong boundaries really are, because when you're not strong, you go, have boundaries. And when you're strong, I have boundaries. We're not doing that. Let's redirect. Yes, not even an option. That was absolutely a lesson for me in watching it. I love it. I love it. Great, great, great idea. So my lesson is from both I guess,

Kura and from Dakot. From Dakot, don't be afraid to stand up to Klingon tyranny. And also for Nana or for Kira, don't be afraid to stand up against

Dakot's mental games or his coming on to you. His seduction, his manipulation. It's kind of boundary-related. It is. Don't be intimidated.

Don't be afraid to draw boundaries. Yeah. Well, our Patreon poll winner for the theme moral of this episode is submitted by Snazzi Zero. Guerrilla warfare is a whole different mindset than traditional military. Okay. Yes. Yes.

Sometimes you've got to bend the rules or think outside the box. Sure. Got to be McGiver. Okay. Exactly. All right. Well, that is the end of our podcast. Thank you, everyone for tuning in to this podcast.

Thank you so much to Terry for joining the co-host and, of course, Nanah for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you, Nanah. It was fun. And a quick reminder to everyone, there is no episode next week. The next episode will be Sons of Maw with Terry released on September 7th. Mogue. Sorry, I know.

I just pronounce it that way for silly. Sons of Mogue with Terry released on September 7th or 8th, depending on your location. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned. for your bonus material and a little bit more of the two ladies we have here. For everyone else, we'll see you next time. Bye.