The Delta Flyers - Rules of Engagement

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, Rules of Engagement, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, and Terry FarrellRules of Engagement: Worf stands trial for destroying a civilian transport ship during a battle with the Klingons. We would like to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers, Megan Elise and Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, Roxane Ray, Tim Neumark, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Andrew Cano, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, Sean T, & Cindy WoodfordOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Cindy Ring, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, David Wei Liu, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Andrew Duncan, Randy Hawke, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Ryan Mahieu, Kevin Harlow, Megan Doyle, Chris Garis, Keir Newton, Jeff Allen, Tamara Evans, & Deb LahrAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Maxine Soloway, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Robert Allen Stiffler, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Karen Galleski, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Timothy McMichens, Cassandra Girard, Robby Hill, Andrea Wilson, Slacktwaddle, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, Jim Poesl, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Shawn Battershall, Natalie Swain, Brian Heckathorne, Kilian Trapp, Nelson Silveira, Ming Xie, Kit Marie Rackley, Gordon Watson, & Andy BruceThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your host for today are my fellow Trek actors, Garrett Wong and Robert Duncan McNeil. and myself, Terry Farrow. For the complete and exciting version of this podcast, where you get tons of cool, fun, extra stuff, sign up for patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and become a patron today. Hello, friends.

Okay, how cute was our teaser for the last show? I left, the oat milk thing. Oh, yes. The one that aired. Oh, the recent one. Okay. But there was a teaser for it. Oh, God.

I said I drink milk, and Robbie said he drinks oat milk. Yeah. And I went, mm-hmm. I love that it still makes you laugh. What? And I was trying not to yuck his yum, and then I did later, which was so bad. I'm so sorry. It's okay.

Everybody likes different milks. Yeah. I think... That's not a milk. Megan and Rebecca are really good at that, and finding the funny. in the teasers to put out there. So that's, that's, well done. Well done, ladies.

Let's talk about some birthdays. What do you think? Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. The first one would be September 30th, and that happens to be a birthday for Kristen. So happy birthday, Kristen. Happy birthday, Kristen.

Happy birthday, Kristen. Happy birthday to Kit Marie on September 29th. Happy birthday, Kit. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Kit. Have a great. great day. We have Alexander Ray on October 3rd. Happy birthday, Alexander. Happy birthday,

Alexander Ray. October 3rd. Happy birthday, Alexander Ray. I hope it's a great one. Let's just jump right into this, folks. Let's go with that poetry synopsis. And Terry is going to grace us with another one of her, beautiful poems. Starting with Robbie's, then my haiku and then Terry's beautiful poem. Let's go. Okay, here we go. My limerick adjacent, it's a limerick adjacent. It's not, technically it's not a limerick. Oh. There is a rhythm to limericks.

I have broken that a long time ago. I've accepted myself. Fine. Worf's in big trouble and Cisco's his lawyer in the trial. The Klingon lawyer has a real nasty style. Cisco knows something's not right. So Odo finds secrets they can cite. For Worf, this lesson on command was truly worthwhile.

You're so good. It doesn't matter what label it is. Yeah, exactly. It really does it. It's beautiful. Wow, here's my haiku for rules of engagement. Wharf is on trial. Cisco, the defense lawyer.

Let's break the fourth wall! awesome that was very good i love that you added that thank you because that that to me was the highlight of this episode so i had to throw that in there i have some issues with it but i know you do i already know you do Robbie i already knew that let's but before we get into that let us please hear terry's poem please oh my goodness wharf how dare you question his integrity stripping his leadership with gravity. His soul, the embodiment of honor. A warrior in battle, I leave you to ponder. Yeah. Nice. Really? Terry's are always so deep. It was great. Deep. That was good. Yeah, it makes you ponder, literally. It does. It does. I like you. Yeah. Good job. Thank you.

Thank you. Good, good job. Okay. Let's jump right into this. This story. is by Bradley Thompson and David Weddell, teleplay by Ronald D. Moore, and directed by our friend LeVar Burton. Mm-hmm. Yeah. LeVar is so good. Yeah, LeVar good.

I don't know why he doesn't direct more these days. It feels like he did for a while, and then he's not doing it as much anymore. I mean, I get, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah. It's a lot of work, you guys do. You earn your money.

It's, you work before, the show and the show and after the show. It's a lot. It is a lot. I was talking to Bob Picardo recently about his directing on Voyager and he was just saying I knew after two episodes of Voyager that that was not my job. I just could not do it. Like it's just stressful and exhausting and he's like I can't imagine walking onto a show with a crew and a cast of strangers and trying to do that like it was hard enough with people that were supporting him well and yeah yeah well on top of it too you have the in television the executive producers are really the directors directing you on what they want which is not the same as having

like an independent film that's yours yeah and you're literally telling the story you want to tell as a director it's got to be a big difference yeah Alan Tudick directed this year on Resident Alien this past season. I remember. Yeah, he said after it was done, he goes, I don't think I'm going to direct TV anymore. I like the directing part, but the TV part where you've got studio notes and network notes and producer notes. It's got to be overwhelming. Yeah.

Especially when you're so creative. I mean, I didn't get to meet him this weekend, but obviously from his work as an actor. He's an incredibly creative human being. He has lots of ideas and to kind of squash that or sit on that and have to work within a corporate structure. Yeah, and even as an actor, I felt like I was some with when they were trying to figure out who Dax was, I started to feel like I was being painted in a corner. Like because I, to struggle to find what fits. right for me with the notes, sometimes it stops your creativity from flowing because not this, not that, it's so many negatives.

It's an environment of no and kind of fear. Like, oh, I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to do the wrong thing. I don't want people to be unhappy. Yeah. Yeah. Which then it makes you question yourself and everything that you're doing. It's like, why are you, okay, all that critique.

Am I doing the right thing? Am I, yeah, so your creativity is strangled. Yeah. Okay. Let us talk about the guest stars. We have Ron Canada as Chpok. Did I say that right? Chpac.

Chpac. You're asking us? I don't speak Klingon. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. So Chappok, he also, if you remember, Robbie, he played the character of Fessick, a Malon.

Remember Malon's in Voyager? They're the ones that always had the garbage transport ships and that were kind of poisoning, like leaving, you know, all types of poisonous waste. I got to watch this show, Voyager. Yes, you do. Yes. So he was Fessick in the Voyager episode Juggernaut. We also have Deborah Strang as Admiral Talara, the, I guess the judge in this trial. Co-stars, we have one, Christopher Michael, as Helm Officer.

Helm officer. Was that on the Defiant, I guess? It had to have been. Like, where else would you have been? I don't remember. Sorry, Christopher. Yeah, me too. I was so focused on.

There was so much talking to the camera that it distracted me from the real acting. You're getting my opinion about the talking to the camera. It was creative. It was experimental. Okay. Yeah. Can we talk about, yes, we will talk about that. I know.

Not now. Robbie's not happy. Keep going. Keep going, Gary. Let's go. Trivia. Surrock, again, is not in this episode. I'm always bummed when I don't see Sorok. I agree.

Yeah, he's so good. Yeah. Okay, so let me just read you a little bit about the origins of this episode. They are to be found in Iris Stephen Bear's love for the films of director Sam Peckin'paw. So in 1994, Iris Stephen Bear read a new Peck and Paw biography written. written by David Weddell. He was so impressed with the book that he invited Weddell down to Paramount, the Paramount Lot, to have a look around. While touring the DS9 sets, Weddell suggested to Bear that he pitch a show. And Bear was thrilled with the idea.

Weddell then contacted his film school writing partner Bradley Thompson and asked him if he'd like to join him in putting a show together. At the time, Thompson was studying computer failures and what happens when major computer systems don't work the way they're supposed to. Now, a particularly good example of this was the Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988 in which a U.S. Navy vessel, the USS Vincennes, shot down an Iranian passenger aircraft, killing all 290 passengers and crew. The U.S. government claimed that the computerized missile system mistook the aircraft for a fighter jet because it wasn't where it was supposed to be and because the pilot wasn't listening

to the frequency on which the Vincennes was broadcasting a warning notification. It was upon this incident that Weddell and Thompson based their story. A Starfleet vessel destroys a civilian ship because it enters a combat zone. So it all started from that. Pretty cool. That is very cool. It's very cool. Can I just say something, Gawa? what you share the investigative work you do to tell us all of this is one of my favorite, favorite parts

of our show. It is fascinating. Yeah. Would never know this information. No, no. And also when you were filming, I'm sure they didn't come over and tell you, hey, Terry, this is why this episode exists.

It would be really helpful if they did. Oh, my God. Yeah, wouldn't it is? Just all of a sudden. It adds gravity. It adds gravity and like a responsibility for the real people that are involved in these things. I remember once I was directing, I was directing an episode called Unity about some Borg that had gotten separated from the collective. And I had recently read a book about the fall of the Soviet Union and how confusing it was after communism fell and people were sort of lost.

And so I would tell the actors, as we're doing this, I'd say, oh, this episode for me is very much about the fall of communism and about the confusion in the streets. And suddenly the actors were like, oh, thank you for that because it gave them something concrete to grab onto. So I think this trivia is great. You're fantastic, Robbie. I'm all right. You know what? I had that stage. You are fantastic.

I had War of the Worlds. I had three parts. I spoke to Robbie before I did it. At a convention. At the convention. At the Star Trek Convention. Yeah. And Robbie and I had a chat about my performance,

and he really helped ground me. Oh, I'm glad. He really did. And it went great, and I had so much fun. And I realized, too, I had this habit of saying I'm nervous. Right. But I thought about. I reflected on my demeanor that day, and I wasn't nervous.

I was excited. I was happy all day. I had so much energy. I never ran out of it. But I was so excited to perform those three characters. But it was very grounding speaking to you, and it's so lovely when you trust someone. And you go ahead and ask for a little help. It just, I was so proud of myself for going.

ahead and asking you. And I just really grateful as a friend that you offered. And your presence is so comforting. Oh, thanks. It is. Yeah, yeah. Now I know. Actors that work with you are very lucky actors. They are. Now I know what was the, now I know what the Convo was about. Robby and I were walking when we bumped into Terry. And they set, they went off for a second and started talking. And it must have been about this. I'm clearly. Because it was a bit of a bit of a. in-depth convo and it seemed about work possibly and it was about the war of the worlds thing that you ended up doing awesome I'll just since we're giving um feedback I will say terry I love that you don't just think these nice and wonderful and kind and appreciative

positive thoughts but you say them to people and that not everybody does and I appreciate that about you yeah always yeah it's very All right. You guys are my heart. Thank you. I love all of you. Okay, here we go. Another little bit of trivia. In the original version of this story, it was Cisco who was on trial, not Wharf.

The episode also had a different denouement insofar as it turned out that the Klingon ship, which had been destroyed, wasn't actually a ship at all, but a fake holographic projection. It was Ira Stephen Bear who suggested switching it to a wharf show and removing the holographic conclusion. I like that better. I don't like a holographic ship. I agree. Yeah. It was a clever detail and, you know, detective work for Odo to do.

And it actually makes sense. Like the plan, you kind of go, oh, of course. Yeah. It was a genius wraparound. I liked it a lot. I didn't see it coming. and I was thinking, how the heck are they going to get him out of this? I know.

And Cisco being on trial, no. I like Cisco being the defense attorney, much better. He was a really good attorney. He did a good job. Wow. He's like he could have had his own show. He could have, you know, like instead of LA law, New York law. Yeah.

Film it in New York so he can be with his family. Hello, Avery Brook. Right? Right. Getting him out of trouble. Yes. The firm of the firm of Cisco. Hire him.

Yeah, Cisco, Cisco, and Odo. So it could be Benjamin and Jake and Odo joining in that law firm. Oh, right? Yes. All righty. What else do we have? Oh, this episode is the second time that a DS9 crew member is wrongly accused of a crime by a foreign government as a means of discrediting Starfleet or weakening their position. The other being O'Brien in tribunal.

Do you remember against the Cardassians where he was all roughed up and everything? Similar situations also occur in the TNG episode, A Matter of Perspective, which Robbie and I have not seen, as well as the Voyager episode, X Post Factor, which Robbie starred in, and he was accused wrongly in that one. Yes, I was. You were. And it reminded me of Dax, that episode in the first season, when I couldn't speak. Oh, yeah, that's right. When Anina Tandra was on trial. Yeah, because Worf wasn't.

saying anything i was like i know so yeah i i felt that in the middle of the episode i'm like he hasn't said anything i know like it's all about wharf and he's hardly spoken this episode yeah not even with avery like but that was good because it kept us like waiting for him to speak was huge yeah it did really smart that's also what the writers were upset about they they weren't happy with the final thing yeah the final product yeah because they felt that wharf is the focus but he didn't speak and they felt that was an injustice to his character that this episode would have been better if they had more quark wharf lines and so it didn't bother me to be perfectly honest I was okay with it but I think maybe that might have bugged Robbie a little bit it bothered me a little

in the beginning and then as Terry said it became so apparent that he's not defending himself with anyone we're not hearing any of his opinions right and so apparent that I was like okay we're waiting we're waiting. He's going to come out with something. I'm on the edge of my seat. Yes. I want to hear. I want to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Robbie, let's jump into it. Let's jump into it. We started with the defiant and basically we're in Worf's nightmare. It's this great stylized scene. Lots of great camera movement. A red alert. Warf is running around with a batliff. The bridge crew is dead. And a group of Klingons are celebrating with batlifts over their head. The Klingons are thrilled about this. And then

Worf enters the bridge and he sees dead Klingon children all around instead of the Federation crew. Kind of switches over. And then suddenly we go to a close up. Warf pops up out of the nightmare. I loved the sound of his wake up though. It was like, oh. Yeah. I've never heard Michael Dorn could be in that octave. Yes, being that octave.

I was impressed, and I made the same note. I said, when he made that sound, we're used to hearing Worf with a very low voice like this. And all of a sudden, he's like, I mean, it was the highest octave I've ever heard coming out of his mouth. I'm impressed. I was like, my gosh. He's got range.

He's an incredible range. Somebody pitched him in the ass. Someone goost warf, and that's how he. Yeah. Wasn't me. He's in a holding cell. We cut wide. He's in a holding cell.

Odo's there. that was weird wasn't that weird it is yeah there's a i was confused yeah there's a deleted scene there's a that where they didn't film or deleted see i can't remember which one but uh cisco says i would like to request that wharf stay in his quarters and not the holding cellity longer so that was something that never was shown oh interesting yeah well yeah at this point i guess it was integral yeah we don't know why is in the holding cell and and odo does say it's 4 a.m you're hearing starts in four hours go back to sleep he's basically otto's like go back to sleep what is odo doing up shouldn't he be in a bucket yes it's 4 a.m

hi what the heck when does he bucket well terry that just okay that gives when you said when does he bucket that made me laugh but it also gave me an idea for his shirt do you remember those white shirts with black lettering back in the 80s you know i want a percentage for how many ideas i've given Oh, my God, it's amazing. And instead of saying got milk, we say got bucket and then with a question mark. Yes. That's good. I like it.

Okay, okay. Good. I like it. Do you remember those T-shirts in the 80s that were big like Frankie goes to Hollywood? Yes. Giant letters just like block. Those were cool. Oh, like that.

Everybody had those T-shirts and they did. Oh, like a bucket on the front. Yeah. And on the back, the big Hollywood. The big, yes. Got bucket. Got bucket. on the back huge and a big big bucket on the front yeah everybody needs a little bucket time

we do all right bucket time we go into the ward room and there's a vulcan judge we meet named talara yeah admiral yes admiral talc and there's a big bell yeah ship's bell that was interesting yeah huh yeah i like the tone Yeah, it was very warm. It was like a sound bath. Right. The trial begins, hits the bell with a sound bath. The trial begins.

We learned that Worf engaged two Klingon ships in this. We get some of the facts. Basically, this is like laying out the case. Right. Opening statements, kind of. We learned that these two Klingon ships were firing on him. And Warf was in command, and he took aim at a ship and ended up killing 400, 41 Klingon civilians.

Yeah. And to be specific, the Klingons were using a tactic where they decloak, fire, then recloak, and disappear. And so he started getting the pattern of the cloaking and recloaking ships. And he said, okay, it's going to be now go. And as it was coming in, then that's the freighter. And he's in a battle. He's in the middle of a darn battle.

He's in the middle of a battle. Well, in this scene, I don't know. Garrett, not to correct you, but in this scene, I don't know that we learn that pattern yet. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. You're right. You're right. I jumped to him. Right. So we're just kind of told the basic facts of there were two ships. And he killed a civilian ship. So it seems bad for Worf. Agreed. We don't know. Yeah. It just seems blatant and, yeah, neglectful. And not like Warf. No, not at all. Like. So it's, yeah, more confusion. Yeah.

441. 441. We do see that Cisco is his defense attorney. Yeah. Or advocate, I guess, in this. And that's a term, that's a military term, right? Oh, instead of saying lawyer or attorney, they say advocate. Yeah, I forget the name in the military.

Jag. But I like it because it sounds protective. Yeah. You know, you have to be your own advocate. so what did this stand for Brabby Jack stands for

something I'm gonna judge advocate general I don't know something like that something like that yes it is

judge advocate general oh I got it yeah you know I had an audition for that oh really Dax yeah

because I did a guest star on Quantum Leap same executive producer but didn't realize I was Yes, Don Belisario.

Don Belisario. Loved him, had a great meeting with him. But then I got Dax, and he hadn't realized, because we hadn't aired yet, we were. Right. And so I was going through all this craziness, right, almost being fired. And I was thinking, shoot. Yeah. Okay, so now we're on the promenade.

Cisco's walking with Odo. He asked Odo to find out everything you can about this Klingon commander. Like, this commander of this ship must be the guy. He must have been doing something nefarious and risk, you know, putting these civilians at risk. It has to be the commander of the ship. So tells him to go check it out. He says it feels like a setup or the sense is. This feels like a setup.

Like there's something we don't know. Also, I made a note they're walking and talking, Odo and Cisco. And normally with background, you have people in the promenade going both ways. Right. behind Odo and Cisco, it's like everybody is heading the same way as Odo and Cisco. What? No, he's going the other way. I was like, they must not have had enough background to, because if you send background the other way,

they're only on for briefly and then they're gone, whereas if they're walking behind them, they're behind them the whole time. Like he's the Pied Piper? Yeah, it was a parade, a parade of background with maybe one or two people going the other way. But there must have been something heading down to where Odo and Cisco. that was really fascinating. Would that be assistant director's job? Yeah.

Yeah. First AD, probably. First AD? It just grabbed my attention because I'm like, where's everybody going? They're all going the same direction. That would have been funnier, Robbie, if like whenever they were talking, they pause and everyone behind them stops too. Yes, exactly.

Freeze. And then the Klingon lawyer arrives, Chappok. Advocate. Yes, advocate, the JAG. the Klingon guy says you know finally it'll be like a tables are turned

because now the Klingons have sympathy usually everybody hates Klingons but because 441 died they're going to get some sympathy this is new for them and he does comment to Cisco he says you know it seems like

Federation justice is all about process he mentions that the truth must be one he seems very confident in this story We've got sympathetic victims. How are you going to get out of this, you know? Like he's not in search of the truth. He feels he has the truth. He wants the sympathy and the story.

Like the story speaks for itself. And we're going to destroy you. Yeah. I got that vibe for sure. Yeah. Which may be. Suspicious. My batlet.

Yeah. We go back to the ward room. The trial has begun. I made a note here. What's the actor's name again? Ron. Ron Canada. Canada.

Ron Canada. Sounds like Ron New York, actually. Yeah, he sounds like Ron from Brooklyn. Yeah. Not a real name. Yes. You know, Robbie, I do, I heard it too, but I honestly feel like it's because of the teeth. He has to work around the teeth.

Oh, now it sounds like, yeah, because. I, from the very first words, I felt like, oh, my gosh, he didn't practice with the teeth. Oh, that's interesting. He got better and better. But, like, yeah. Yeah. And that's a necessary evil when you're a Ferengi or a cling on. You've got to work with the teeth.

But maybe they came in late. I mean, they have to make them for them, right, to fit their own, over their own teeth. They have to do a mold. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And Westmore was always working under the gun. But you could tell, like, it made my mouth salivate watching him, like going,

Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah. But it's, I think that's unavoidable because there are times when I listen to, Nog, Aaron Eisenberg speak. And there's certain words that come out very much like you're from New York, because you're trying to get around the team. Round, yeah. Around everything, yeah.

Well, then also, he didn't wear them as much as Cork did or Dorn did. That's true. Yeah, right? Yeah. So it is getting your mouth used to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the trial has begun, and our lawyer from New York is laying out his case and basically

tries an angle of, you know, we can talk about the fact. but that's not important it's what's in his heart yeah was it bloodlust he just he you know basically puts his heart on trial and and cisco's like that is way too subjective we can't litigate what someone was feeling or thinking and the judge sort of defends the lawyer and says well the motive is relevant so let's hear what he has to say it's here yeah let's let's try to to figure this out. So Dax is our first witness, starting with you. No pressure. No pressure. Can I just say right off the bat? The color of the dress uniform, the medical green is a different green than the everyday uniform that you're

wearing. It's a deeper green, like a forest green. That is a very complimentary color on you, Terry Farrow. My goodness. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Gosh, it's very nice. It's very nice. Yeah, yeah. You looked great. Boy, did I look angry, though. You did. You were not happy to be there. Oh, man, I wanted to kick his ass. Yes, you do. He goes after you right away. We're going to talk about a turn. Mm-hmm. Yes, we are. Mm-hmm. Well, he goes after your expertise right away. He says, you're an expert, and you say, no, Curzon was the expert. I'm familiar. So you're already kind of trying to play your cards close. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She does, Dax does admit that Klingon culture is highlighted by a warrior culture.

And she admits that she fights him in the holosuite, but, but that he always shows restraint. And we cut into the caves in the middle, as you're, you know, testifying. We cut into the middle of a fight when suddenly in the middle of this fight, Dax turns to camera. I'm the first, you're the first one. You're the first one. Like Ferris Bueller, I wrote down. It's like Ferris Bueller talking to the camera.

Yeah. And she says that he always knows when to stop, right to the audience. You could kill me. Yeah. Of course he could. Yeah. But I was like, oh, no, we're not going to do this, are we? Oh, yes, we are.

That's funny how you said, oh, no. And I went, oh, yes. I was so excited. Oh, my God. I did too. Honestly, I knew it didn't fit with our. So there was a. moment of, I forgot we did that. But then another kind of, it feels more modern, like what

people do now. But it would have been, that's a different show. It is a different show to me. I was, yeah, me too. But I was kind of excited that they were brave enough to try it. Yeah, most definitely. Let me read a little passage to both of you. It was Iris Stephen Bear who came up with the concept of having the characters speak to camera, effectively breaking the fourth wall. He was determined not to do just another trial show, like the measure of a man or Dax, and while trying to decide what to do to make the show stand out,

he saw the 1995 Spike Lee movie Clockers. During that film, in a flashback, Detective Rocco Klein, played by Harvey Keitel, speaks directly to camera. Bear thought this was an excellent idea and suggested it to Ronald D. Moore, who concurred, and who wrote it into the teleplay. Moore describes this device as sort of breaking the fourth wall, but sort of not, because the actors aren't talking to the audience.

They're actually talking to someone in the courtroom, which is very interesting, right? So it's not really, yeah. I like that it dovetailed. I do, too. Yeah. So I thought that was cool. Now, look, I'm, okay, hold on, Robbie. I know. Different strokes. Totally different strokes. I get it.

Yeah, I, you know, just appreciated the... It was brave. It was brave. Yes. It was very brave to try. And it worked. It did work. If it was a standalone show that wasn't, if it were a movie, it worked. Yes, yes. But you're talking about our... In the life of the series, it's something that just seems out of place to me.

It's out a place to the normal storytelling of our show. Yeah, definitely. Unlike Robbie, I had no problem with it at all. And LeVar said that device the writer's employed was, for a director, a lot of fun to play with. When I read that, I got excited. I got excited because it's not often that you break that fourth wall and have characters directly address the camera. Certainly, I don't think it has ever happened on Star Trek before. It rarely happens in one-hour dramas.

So it was a lot of fun and very, very challenging because we had so much take place in that one-room courtroom set. My approach to the three major sequences in that room were all completely different in terms of the way we move the camera. That's what I love about directing. It's an absolute challenge. Yeah. He did a great job. He's really good. He is a good director.

And he's fantastic to work with. He's calm. I've never seen him lose it when he's directing. very calm, very together. He knows what he wants. He is the epitome of focus and being open, being available to everyone around him. I just, he's very elegant. There's an elegance to LeVar Burton and I just love that about him. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we're back in the ward room back in the trial and Chappac has some personal records of Wharfs, which it's funny in this trial, like they're breaking so many legal rules. Like Cisco is his attorney, but he's also

on the stand. Like, it's kind of, there's a lot of blurred boundaries. Getting personal records without a warrant of any kind. Yeah, but also, Wharf, when he asks for them, Worf just says, I have nothing to hide and give him this whole, and you, that Cisco doesn't grab it from him. Yeah. And object or something is kind of, I just found that. When you don't keep those boundaries, it doesn't make sense. If you don't keep those sort of process boundaries,

then you can sort of twist the truth into anything you want rather than it being the truth. And that's the danger of that. That's why there are those rules to protect. people so that the truth doesn't get twisted. Exactly. Because to say how you feel doesn't mean that's how you acted. Yeah. Worf does agree, like you said, Terry. He says, I don't have anything to hide. So the Klingon lawyer asks Dax about the Battle of Tongveh. And this is a holodeck game that they had played together, Dax and Worf, this famous battle. And after the victory, the emperor killed everybody in the city and dax goes oh wait that's not the same thing and uh she finally admits

yeah in the game wharf did like the history and did the same thing he killed everybody too and cisco gets really angry there he objects he was very angry he's very passionate cisco as in as the attorney back too he needed to have his own show and play the lead attorney yes yes Cisco, Cisco, and Noto. Yeah. The firm of Cisco, Cisco, and Odo. Yes. Or just a totally different character, not unlike, well, what did Shatner do with Renee?

Boston Legal. There you go. Yeah. New York Legal. Yeah. Starring Aver Brooks. Yes. Or New Jersey legal because he, like, he lives in New Jersey.

Oh, right. New Jersey legal. I want to be the judge on that show. Okay. So when he objects, he objects a couple times. The second objection. when Cisco stands up and says, you know, objection, the close-up on Cisco, somehow one of his pips has fallen off or something because there's only, there's only three.

You notice that? Well, you'll see it if you rerun it. There's only three. And everything before that, there's four, like earlier in the scene. And it's the same scene, Robbie. Earlier when he's sitting down, he's got four pips. So I almost feel like wardrobe, someone got reprimanded after that. I wonder if maybe, you know, sometimes the fabric can fold or something.

I wonder if it was there, but just hidden. We got to go look back. You know, I thought they were all attached. I don't remember them being single. Together in one piece, right? Yes, yes, yes. So then I don't understand how they could have. Well, maybe it fell off.

It could have fallen off. The lapel. Yes, it could have. That's what I think happened. It must have fallen off. It could have broke. Because that would have been glued on to the single solid piece, right? Yeah. And there's no.

reason he would have touched it so it could have just just fallen right on ran out of glue or maybe he was maybe he was demoted in between takes no i'm going to go with terry's the structural integrity of the glue failed that's it yes yeah yeah well next it is cisco's turn to be questioned i love this shot we see uh chappac ask him a question it wrecks focus to cisco in the foreground it was yeah lavar's got great instincts on these kind of things. Yes, he does. Transitions. Great eye. Great eye. Yeah, really good. Racks forward to Cisco and Cisco says, yes, I sent Worf on this mission. Then we're in the captain's office and Cisco is sending him on the mission. So it's a bit of a flashback.

Yes. We learned there was a plague at this Cardassian colony. It was the Redelian plague on Pentath 3, this colony. And so Starfleet is sending humanitarian aid and Worf is going to escort this convoy and they discuss in the captain's office that the clangons are probably going to try to stop him and then cisco turns to the camera our next camera speaker um and talks to the camera again just to remind you this is robbie's favorite part yes i again i disagree robbie i liked it sorry yeah i mean levar did a good job with navigating it and yes you know i thought I thought it was seamless. Mixing it up. Yeah.

Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Seamless is a perfect definition, a descriptive word to say. That's exactly what it was to me. Thank you, Gaba. Yes, you're welcome.

But he said, you know, basically he says to the camera that he thought Worf was a very distinguished officer and could take on more responsibility. And he obviously understood the Klingon, so he'd be the right choice. So a lot of good reasons to send him there. And then we cut back to reality,

in the middle of this information. This is where I made the note that it's kind of weird to have Worf's attorney testifying for or against him because you would never do that. You would recuse yourself as the attorney if you had real, you know. An investment, a personal investment in the person. Yeah.

Yeah. So he wouldn't be able to be his attorney, period. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, I'm choosing not to ruin the show over that. Okay. but it did that did sort of bother me like i felt like we were playing fast and loose with like if we're gonna do a trial we're talking to the camera now we're putting people on the stand that

probably wouldn't be there we're getting i don't know i'm i'm starting the the negatives for me were starting to add up already okay yeah and you know what did you ever um i'm curious Have you ever directed legal shows? Yes. Yeah, so that's another reason why it's in your craw, right? Yeah, or cop shows, you know, if it's a law enforcement show of some kind, there are rules. And even if it's like walking into a building, like there's political calls. How you hold your gun.

How you hold your gun. First job I had holding a gun. Muscle control, all of that stuff. Yes. Finger off the trigger. You don't pull the gun up unless you've got a talk. Target and you're ready to fire. Got it up.

Yeah. If you're going in a dangerous place, how you kind of check yourself and you've got backup and you move. There's all kinds of things that when you do those shows, cop shows or lawyer shows, that I didn't see at play in this legal proceedings. It was a little like, oh, we're just going to. Whatever. Whatever.

That sounds good. Yeah. When I had to hold a gun, I went to Culver City Police Department and had a police officer we went down to their shooting range and he showed me how to shoot the gun how to hold it we walked around with well obviously unloaded guns but we walked around the precinct it was empty yeah um it was very generous of them i was doing red sun rising with don the dragon wilson i was playing i was playing a racist cop against don the dragon wilson you were mean to him oh i know that's It's heartbreaking, but then I felt my character fell in love with him.

Okay. Of course. As you do. Redemption. Redemption. But the thing is, I guess what I'm trying to get to is if I had to play a lawyer, I would go sit in on a trial to see a real one, not just watch TV. Yeah. You mean, a little research for that can help you really understand how serious the gravity of what it is.

Yeah. And I think, you know, experimental films. creativity-wise this was a fun episode talking to the camera and all that stuff but from a just a reality-based kind of storytelling there was a lot of for me there was a lot of things that was like i might call bullshit on that or i don't buy that yeah no i agree with you i agree with you yeah i mean i still enjoyed it because it's our world and great performances and again lavar did a great job creatively with the camera work the actresses were all good, Ron Canada was great. But you're talking about like a rewrite to the logistics

of what is legal process. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I know it sounds. I hear you. No, I hear you completely. It may sound dry, but in a way, it keep anything to me that takes, reminds me that reminds me that I'm watching people pretending takes me out of the story. And that's why the talking to the camera, the legal process flaws. It all kept reminding me, oh, I'm just watching everybody pretend. And I want to get lost in this story. And really, it's hard for me to go 100% rooting or caring if I've called bullshit too many times. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Because it's taking you out of the story. Yeah. And the whole point is to suck you into the story. from your heart so you care so you have an emotional experience yeah so the next scene is in

the next witness is corks and so we are actually in corks cork now speaks to camera this this worked for me i'm gonna say it was so hilarious it was a comedy premise it worked for me it was a nice break too you know art music there's a little break in it it just it was a beautiful perfectly timed moment for Quirk to show up. Here's the levity. Here's the levity in this episode, right? So Quark talks about setting up the scene. He's cleaning up.

He goes, oh, yes, it was Dr. Bashir talking to one of the Davo girls. Which one was it? He starts going through each of them. And then it's, oh, it's not that girl. And then the way that it was shot by LaVar was awesome. Like one girl would pop out when the camera moved away. Sometimes it was on a cut. Sometimes it was on a pan.

Yes. It just kept moving in and out. It was moving. Great. But then the unknown twist is at the end. He was like, no, no, no, it wasn't Bashir. It was Mourne, actually. And he said, and right before Mourne's about to speak is when it goes back to Chappok,

can we return to the matter at hand, please? I love that. And I think you did laugh at that, Robbie. Yes, I did. Okay, good. Fine. Although I would have pasted it up editorial a little faster. A little faster, yes.

Yeah, yeah. A little slow for the comedy, but it still worked. I agree. Yeah. I agree. There was a lull where I was just like, oh, my. Like, we get the comedy premise. Now, just play it.

Just play it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But, yeah, he does say he saw Worf come into the bar. Finally, after all the comedy bits, we get to. Oh, yeah. So Worf came in.

Oh, no. And you know it's going to be bad. Yeah. And Quirk says Klingons, very condescendingly, he says, oh, you know, he was in a good mood for a Klingon. I wouldn't call them ever having good moods. They're pleasant. What does he say?

Not that you're anything but a pleasant, charming race. Very comfortable. We learn Worf ordered prune juice. That's his regular, isn't it? It is. It is. Yeah. Well, if your body was that big, you might need prune juice, too.

I didn't think about that. Cork admits that Worf says he hopes the Klingons go after this. convoy so he's looking for a fight yeah he does admit this to quark and quirk you know under oath in this proceeding has to tell the truth and and so it doesn't look good for for wharf no he was looking for a fight and we get back to our scene chippok's very happy with that answer he seems very confident yes and uh and we are not happy no it's not and this is where wharf has not spoken at all yet. This is where it's, I'm starting to go, come on, dude. Getting anxious. Yes. You know, we're going to hear this. It's, that delay is starting to

work for me. Yeah. Go to the security office, Odo confirms that the captain of the ship is not suspicious. He was a civilian, a very quiet man, actually, as people that knew him said. And the Klingons say that this, this civilian ship had wandered off course. And that is possible. Very close to where this conflict was happening. But holy cow, there are warships all around and you just accident. It's like driving through, you see an accident happen. You go, I'm going to drive right to that. Especially when you're cloaking, like, you know, ships are cloaking all over the place.

These warships are cloaking. Odo does say in the scene that he's very suspicious about one thing. The Klingons are all very eager to help a police officer. And usually that's not, that's suspicious. That's a red flag for him. For any race. Yeah. But the Klingons?

But the Klingons. Why are they so eager to talk to me? That's not a Klingon trait. No. So Cisco says, all right, thanks for the Captain Info. Take a look at all these passengers. Go through every passenger, see what's up with that. And then we go to the bridge.

And Miles is looking directly into the camera again, telling a story. But this time, LeVar kind of wraps the camera around. It's a very long speech with O'Brien. and talking about, you know, what's happening. There were two Klingon ships, a bird of prey, and a battle cruiser. And one would engage us while the other went after a convoy, and then they'd switch, and they'd cloak and decloak. And so this is what we were talking about earlier, Garrett,

this is where we learned, oh, they were setting up a... It's here. A rhythm and a pattern. Yeah, and we kind of feel like we're in it in this scene, because O'Brien takes us... Yes. Or LeVar takes us to the bridge. of it happening as

O'Brien's explaining it, which is really cool, too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So O'Brien's in the scene, but he's also narrating the scene to the camera and the camera's moving a lot. It's well done. Lamar did a great job with us. Is this

the only time we see Kira, too? I think so. Is on the bridge. Because she doesn't go on trial. Yeah, that was a deleted, either they didn't shoot it or it was a deleted scene. There was a trial. trial she was on trial she was a witness sorry she was a witness

and she was the only one that sides with wharf and she's like I think he made the right decision and then Chappok comes over and completely destroys her credibility by saying she's a freedom like he goes back into her terrorist rebel past you know and says like of course a rebel

would say that so that's it's did the show run long is that way they took it out? That's what it sounds like to me yeah it just didn't add to the story Nope. Yeah. Well, this is the scene where from Miles is recounting this story, we realized this pattern was set up, cloaking, harassing. And so the last time they came out, they decloaked, he thought it was one of those two warships.

And they would have shields and all of that. And so he just fired as they were decloaking. And it wasn't a bird of prey. It was this civilian ship. Yeah. All of them are dead. But Miles stands by Worf's decision, said Worf, you know, would never have fired on an unarmed ship if he knew it was an unarmed ship. He supports him.

And then Chappok starts pushing him. He says, imagine you're in the captain's chair. And they do this sort of dramatic reimagining. Now in the imaginary version, Miles is in the chair. We see the thing reenacted. And Miles is starting to get wow. up about this. And Miles ultimately admits, no, I wouldn't have fired.

Oh, such a heartbreaking moment. But he says things look different when you're sitting in that chair. And I made a note here just as a director, as what Lavaar is doing in this episode or when I've directed. Often I will, after the fact, go, oh, why didn't I do this? I should have done that. Or, you know, it's easy. But when you're in the heat of the clock is ticking,

And this, you know, so many things are happening. You've got to make a decision as the director of an episode or director of the scenes. And you make decisions and sometimes you regret them, but you got to stick by it. But that's a lesson, right? Yeah. You have to switch the regret to a lesson for the next show. Yeah. And often when I'm producing and there's a director who may be struggling or, you know, having a tough time, I'll see people, you know, other crew members going, you know, well,

that would have not been a problem like they have all these criticisms and I'm like you know what you direct yeah let me see what you do like it's really easy to be cocky and judgmental when you're not the one in the chair just like Miles says yeah because you're not in the mindset I mean Miles is paying attention to totally different things that's his job yeah so everybody has a different job and that's why we all have the different jobs on the set too yeah not too hyper criticize anybody else but focus on your one job yeah well um he gets him to admit he would not have fired and so yeah it doesn't look good for wharf our silent wharf we go into the replemate and chapac comes to find cisco and he says you know what if you just concede this case

i will make sure that they don't put warf to death you know that they that he's not put to death for this. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Thanks. But then he says, I'll defend him myself. I'm like, oh, well, thanks a lot for nothing. It's like, okay.

That's terrifying. Yeah. And then Cisco also brings up, well, you know, that'd be a great win for you guys because I know you want the penthouse system for the Klingon. So it's a win-win. And Cisco does kind of suspect, he says, I think you're offering this because you're afraid of what Worf is going to say on the stand. So there's a bit of, like, lawyer game playing going on in this, in this reprimat scene.

And now we're out in the corridor is where Odo sees Cisco. He says, I haven't found anything, anyone suspicious on the crew manifest. So they're looking at names and backgrounds, but nobody looks suspicious. Right, as if one of the passengers could have implemented this whole thing. Yeah, this conspiracy or something. And none of them looks, they all look innocent. and Cisco finally says, you know, Worf was going to have to help himself in this scene.

So I was like, finally, Worf's going to say something. He hasn't talked the whole episode. And we cut to the bridge and Worf is talking to the camera this time. Yeah. Sometimes for me. But he relived.

We're twinning right now. I know. You guys love it. This is a new moment, though, because... I know. I honestly, I loved every time they spoke to the camera because it's so different. We'd never see that.

I love it. I get it. Continue. Yeah. Worf is reliving this moment. The engagement started. He says the bird of prey just declo- or Kira says the bird of prey just decloaked off the port quarter. Worf raised shields.

Then we cut back to the ward room. And Worf does say back in the trial that he respects Miles, but that Miles was not in command. It wasn't in the sitting in the hot seat when he had to make that decision. And it's easy to look back and second guess what people. And he's had time to think about it and contemplate it. And he says, I would do it again. Yeah. Like knowing what I knew in that moment.

Yeah. Yeah. And then Chappok goes after him personally. And he says, well, you're an outcast at the Klingons, aren't you? Yeah. And Worf admits that he is and he was angry about it. It was unjust. And Chappok's trying to push his buttons in the scene.

Oh, boy. Well, also, Robbie. I mean, it's important to note that when he said, yes, I would do it again. Worf clarifies, he says, if I hesitated, I would have been negligent. I would have been risking my ship, my crew, and the entire convoy. So he had to make the split-second decision. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

And to keep also placing it that he was in battle. Yes. He was in the middle of battle. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Well.

This is not real. You're not dad. Well, Trapa keeps pushing, like just needling him. He says, he tells Worf, you know, he asks him, would you attack an unarmed man? And Worf says, no, never. Never. Never attack an unarmed man. Well, you're not truly a Klingon.

You're more human. You've been with the humans too long. He's going after that. And the judge even jumps in and says, hey, cut it out this is out of you know out of bounds or whatever and then chippa continues he brings up his son he uses his son to trigger him he's attacking his integrity his honor his child oh yeah child don't mess with family don't mess with the kid uh-uh and wharf just loses it gets up punch punch punch knocks him down

well done wharf yes well done oh well inappropriate but he had some good moves yeah he did it was like three moves and chippa was down he's almost my man at this point isn't he almost yeah yeah chepaq is very happy though that he got wharf to react this way doesn't he even say at the end like oh you i thought you said you'd never yeah he says i thought you said you'd never attack an unarmed man perhaps you should have said, not unless I get angry, not unless I have something to prove. Oh, making it even worse.

Yeah. I hate this guy. I hate people like that. Damn you, Chapak! We have a captain's log. We learn the hearing is in recess and she's retired. The judge is retired to her quarters to deliberate and he's not very optimistic. Cisco's not happy.

And then in the captain's office, Odo walks in. and says, good news, hands on a pad. Finally. Finally. Yay. Love Odo. We go to the wardroom.

Cisco calls Chippock. So the other attorney goes on the Zand. It makes no sense. But anyway. Well, that doesn't make sense at all to me. No. Yeah. But.

You have to cast and pay other actors if you really want witnesses and they didn't want to do that. Does that ever happen in real court? where the prosecuting attorney goes on to the stand. I don't think you can. That's not even allowed, is it? It's a conflict of interest. No. Neither one of them.

Okay. No. But they had great actors, so they used them. Exactly. Well, he calls Chappok to the sand, asks him what the status of the Klingons and the Federation is. And they sort of talk about that a little. He goes, well, we're not really friends,

but we're not really enemies either. And there's some things, you know, we can trust you to an extent. You can trust us to an extent. And Cisco says, well, it's in your interest to deceive or lie to the Federation if it helps you, right? Because we're not allies. Ultimately, Cisco pulls out this list of victims from this event. And he says, this list is the same as a list of victims from a crash that happened much earlier on Galora Prime.

Hmm. What a coincidence that all the victims are exactly the same as people who were. you know, declared dead after this crash. They couldn't recover any bodies. But now, miraculously, they're declared alive just before this accident. And there, every single one of them is on this next. Exactly. They don't know each other and they're all in the same transport.

Yeah. Very unlucky group to be in two crashes or two tragedies back to back. And Cisco basically says, look, this was all. staged yeah um you know uh it was it was to destroy the only clingon officer who was in starfleet and is that possible that this was all staged and and chappok admits yes it's possible so he gets him to break and we go to wharf's cabin there's a party to celebrate warf's innocence and quarks disco comes to get him weren't you in the party we're celebrating you and this is a nice Wharf talks about his feelings of resentment and vengeance.

He admits he's got those feelings. And he admits he should have checked when the ship decloaked. And Cisco reprimanded him for that. He's like, yeah, you should have. You should have checked. Cisco says Starfleet doesn't ever risk harming civilians. And you made a military decision. And that is very different than a Starfleet decision.

I liked this distinction that Cisco made in the scene about what Starfleet is. Yes, they have to fight and defend themselves. And if it's another military vessel, sure, rules of military make sense. But if there's ever civilians involved, that's a different decision than a military decision. So I thought that was a nice distinction. I did too. I have to say, though, I felt like us as viewers getting to see in that moment when

Worf is describing what he was actually seeing and that the Klingon bird of praise are doing that on a regular decloaking and, um, I think he made the right decision. I think he made the right call. If he would have paused and it was a bird of prey, they would have been gone. Yes. Yeah. So what I just want to say about this scene, there's an intensity to Cisco's tone.

That the reprimand, I felt like he was talking to someone who didn't know better. So it felt like there was a lacking of camaraderie. Or Worf just said what was down. So he didn't need to be spanked. You know what I mean? Yeah, it was just a little, it felt off to who Worf is to all of us and who he was on next gen and who he's become. I just felt like the tone was a little too. I feel like Avery does that.

Yeah, too harsh. On a regular basis, in my opinion, he can sort of, he can jump. His energy and intensity can jump in a moment and then it can pull back. And sometimes that can be often very effective and interesting and keeps our attention. But I don't, I agree with you in this scene that it felt a little unmotivated, the level of that jump to. Yeah. Well, so Worf doesn't even want to go to the celebration, but Cisco's like, listen, you know, they're trying to have a release here. these are the troops you need you need to show up you know if you're going to be a captain

captains have to do things they don't want to do or they're going to show up for other people yes and my favorite two lines in this entire episode warf says life is a great deal more complicated in this red uniform and cisco says wait till you get four pips on that color you'll wish you had gone into botany which made oh my god that made me laugh because my dad got his PhD in botany so i was like oh really yeah that's cool yes oh yeah it was a a good button at the end or a blow as we say in comedy sometimes a blow a blow yeah yes a what did you ever say that on becker when you were doing sitcoms talk about a blow at the end of the scene like a joke at the end of the scene i don't remember maybe i i didn't catch it a writer term i've

never heard that robbie i've never heard that really what so that's a tagline or what does that mean a blow so you know um if did you ever get directed by a director to say hey we need a button at the end of the scene we need you to like say your line and really land it as like a cliffhanger line or we need you to you know as you're looking off in the distance yes and give me a button at the end of like well that's in a dramatic scenario you might use the word button in a comedy half hour comedy especially you would use the word blow because it's not just a button it's a joke it has to be a right you want a big hard laugh at the end of the scene and somebody right You know, somebody who doesn't call that or something.

If they said it, I would have said, what does that mean? And honestly, now it's been decades. Well, button and blow both begin with bees. Yes. Okay. B, B, B, B, B, B. All right. Well, that's it, guys.

We got to the end of it. We did. We did. We solved the case. I'm going to start with Robbie. What is your theme lesson for this episode? What would you say? I wrote down, in the heat of balance.

Decisions are hard, so be prepared. I like that. Terry, do you have a theme or moral? Hold on to your integrity. Okay, I like that. Mine is going to be that the truth will somehow rise to the top. I like that. I do too.

Yeah. Great. All right. Good lessons. Yes, good lessons. And don't have your lawyer testify. against you on the stand. That would be another one.

Yes. Or give away your personal, let you give away your personal information. Yes, exactly. Holy cow. Terry, what's our Patreon, Paul winner for theme moral of this episode? Well, this was submitted by Alex Ray.

Just because you're not guilty does not mean you're innocent. Oh, interesting. I like that. It does make me go back to my poem. Let's ponder. Yes. Ponder that. Nice. I like it. Good lessons.

It is. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning in to our recap and discussion of rules of engagement. Join us next time, and we will be recapping and discussing the episode Hard Time with Armand. Once again, thank you to Terry for joining us for this one. And for all of our Patreon patrons. Yeah, thanks, Ter. Thank you, guys. I love hanging with you. And for all of our Patreon patrons, please. stay tuned for our bonus material with Robbie, myself, and Terry. You know they will.

They will. And for everyone else, we'll see you next time. Bye.