The Delta Flyers - State of Flux

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is State of Flux. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.State of Flux:While on a routine exploration of a new planet, Voyager responds to the distress calls of a Kazon warship. Upon investigation, they find the Kazon ship hobbled by an accident caused by Federation technology - a clear signal that Voyager may be carrying a traitor.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Ann Marie Segal, Philipp Havrilla, Jason M Okun, Kelton Rochelle, Stephanie Baker, Stephen Smith, Sarah A Gubbins, John Tufarella, Brian Barrow - The Destination in Louisville KY, Chris Knapp, Daniel Adam, Eve Mercer, James Hildebrand, Matthew Gravens, Mary Jac Greer, Marie Burgoyne, Michelle Zamanian, Jason Self, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, and, Shannyn Bourke.And our Producers  Col Ord, Aithne Loeblich, AJ Provance, Ann Harding, Barbara Beck, Breana Harris, Captain Nancy Stout, Catherine Goods, Charity Ponton, Chloe E, Chris Tribuzio, Claire Deans, Craig Sweaton, Crystal Komenda, Dave Grad, Deborah Schander, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Heidi McLellan, James Amey, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Josh Johnson, Karel Hartlieb, Katherine Hedrick, Katie Johnson, Katherine Puterbaugh, Kelley Smelser, Laura Swanson, Liz Scott, Maggie, Mary O'Neal, Matthew Cutler, Mike Schaible, Máia W, Nathanial Moon, Nevyn Cross, Rich Gross, Richard Banaski, Ryan, Steph Dawe Holland, Terence Thang, Thomas Melfi, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Warren Stine, York Lee, Dat Cao, Debra Defelice, Evette Rowley, Louis P, Oliver Campbell, and, Stephen Riegner. Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order. Your two hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Garrett Wong, aka Ensign Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who portrayed Lieutenant Tom Paris. If you're interested in either an extended version of this podcast or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which include added bonus segments. Check out our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron. Hello, Robbie. How are you today? Hello, Garay. Garay is the French. It's the French pronunciation of Gary. Yeah, I just felt, I was feeling a little, La Francais.

You know who used to call me Garay all the time? Roxanne. Yes. Good. Very good. I'm impressed. I married her. I know I should know.

She was my wife. She was your TV wife. That's your on-camera wife. So I'm super impressed because when we had our production meeting a few days ago. Yeah. While we were talking, because basically Jess Miller, our editor and, you know, she's, she had to talk to us about our sound not being as prima as it could be. Dialed it in.

She was dialing us in, always improving. You mentioned that you needed a pop filter and possibly something to raise your microphone off of the table. And while we were talking, you just looked at your phone and within seconds you had ordered via Amazon. Amazon. The arm, the pop filter, I know that the one little thing is not fitting. That's the one one downside. There is one little thing. thingy. Where is it?

Where's that little piece? So I was trying to be super pro. This is what I'm holding right now is one of those suspension mounts for a microphone where it's kind of old-fashioned like the elastic and it absorbs vibration and things like that. So I've ordered this little piece so I could, again, trying to deliver top quality grade A surloin podcast

to everyone out there. You got to like shout out to the plant-based eaters out there. So besides grade-a asparagus, can we go with that? We can go with tofu, top tofu. I like a little alliteration. The top tofu podcast.

But anyway, this little thing here was too small. So your mic's just too big then. Is that what you're saying? You've got a really big microphone? You know what? Big hands, big mic, that's what they say. Right?

Big hands, big mic, big heart. I think that's a new one, but I'll go with that one. All righty. What are we watching this week? State of Flux is our episode. Okay. And I just want to say that for all of you, Patreon, patrons, we're about to play a little game of what do we remember.

For everybody else, stay tuned as we go watch the episode, and we will be right back to discuss and analyze. state of flux. All right, guys, we're back from watching State of Flux. State of Flux. Yes. I mean, this was an episode I did not remember. And in fact, even watching it, there were so many things I did not remember.

I felt like a fan watching this episode. I was like, I was like, oh, my God. Wait, what? They're going to do what? Anyway. Yeah, it was all. It's interesting because if you think about it, if there's episodes that we don't have a lot of scenes in, those are the episodes we're not going to remember much of. Like, you were on the bridge only in this episode. I was on the bridge and I was also on the planet in the very beginning. Basically, Voyager goes down to a planet to forage for supplies. We get a distress call from a Kazan ship. We go, We go investigate and discover that there's been an accident. And then more disturbing is that there are traces of Starfleet technology, basically, or minerals that are only used in Starfleet technology within this Kazan ship that's had the accident. And then now there is this whole, I guess, investigation into, is it, It's somebody from our ship that has betrayed us, that's given away this technology.

Was it a Starfleet ship that got sucked into the Delta Quadron before us that we don't know about? But then we narrowed down to know. Indeed, it is somebody from the engineering crew that did this. The suspects are Ensign Kerry, or is it Lieutenant Carey? I don't remember what his. Lieutenant Kerry. Lieutenant Kerry and Ensign Seska are the main suspects. And through, you know, trial and error and setting up little traps, they discover it's CESCA.

And Janeway is not happy about that. And CESCA escapes. And that's the basic synopsis of this show. And, you know, to be honest, I did not remember the betrayal or at least CESA aligning with the Cazon this early. I thought this was in season three or something, but this is still season one. Oh, God, very early. Very early, and this stuff happens. So that to me was kind of a surprise.

And also, the director, Robert Scherer, I don't remember him at all. I think this may be the only, was this the only one he directed or did he direct more? It has to be. But you would agree with me. If I threw out names, Alan Craker, if I threw out any other names, you would say, yes, I remember him. Yes, I remember him. You know, no problem. Kim Friedman, yes, I remember him.

I think Bob Shear was one of the old school directors who had done a lot of next generation. And it was our first season and we got a lot of the same crew, you know, the same players that had been doing next gen on a semi-regular basis. They sort of came into season one until we developed our own little stable of directors like Alan Craker had not done next gen, I don't think. I think he came on to Deep Space Nine was his first Star Trek. I looked him up because I couldn't remember him either. He started as an actor in the 40s in Broadway musical theater. He was a performer in Broadway musicals, which I'm shocked that I didn't know that because that's kind of how I got started, was in New York theater and doing a lot of musical

theater. So I wish I knew that or had talked to him about that. I bet he had some amazing stories. But yeah, he started in the theater. in New York theater, Broadway, doing musicals, and then started directing some comedies. I think he won an Emmy for directing the Danny Thomas show in the 60s, late 60s, and then had directed lots of Star Trek.

And yeah, it's funny that we didn't, well, he died in 2018, and he was 88 or 89 years old, I think I could have read. So that means when he directed us, he was in his late 60s. probably, you know, close to retirement or even semi-retired. I was going to say that I got goosebumps when you were talking about, you know, that you should have known this guy because you had your start in musical theater and he was an actor back in the day. And I got goosebumps because I started thinking about, flash forward 40 years from now,

two actors are doing their, you know, podcast. And they're like, huh, that was directed by Robert Duncan. Duncan McNeil. He started as an actor. I should know him. I should know that guy because before that he did musical theater. He did into the woods. And, you know, I started in musical theater in the year in the year 2021. But, you know, that was my first musical theater play. And these two guys are talking about you, you know, 40 years from now as a sort of a, you know. Time. Yeah. Time flies. Time flies. That's what watching some of the. episodes for me has really reinforced like in a blink of an eye this seems like yesterday that we made a lot of these episodes but yet it seems like 200 years ago you know in other ways it seems it can it's kind of both things it's it's just happened and it happened many lifetimes ago it's it's crazy yeah did you notice how many sayings that there were like adages old adages Never judge a fruit by its skin was one that Neelix came up with, right?

And then at the end, you hear Chakotay talking about, am I the only one who had the wall pulled over his eyes, you know? And then misery loves company, you know, this was the episode of sayings, you know. Yeah, there was a lot of, there was a lot of sayings. I did notice that, yeah. And what a weird blocking when Neelix is on the planet and talking about that one apple that if you eat it you die whatever and he says then you feel this this this thing that starts in your in your leg and it goes all the way up to your and then beltrane catches his

hand and stops it right at while he's pointing at ensign carry's crotch basically yeah i just thought what a weird direction and what weird blocking that was you know to see that i don't know it seemed a little i mean uh robert sheer who directed this now that i you know after i watched this episode I guess my impression of the of the shooting style was very old-fashioned. It almost felt like like it was from the original series, you know, a little bit, a little bit old-fashioned. Yeah. Whereas we had had some directors like Les Landau or Rick Colby directing, doing some really interesting for the time, for the mid-in-moves. Yeah, very cinematic sort of designed shots.

And then we got to that scene where Neelix is pointing and talking about the poison. And it felt very proscenium. It felt like a sitcom almost. Like Neelix sort of walked in and took his place and turned open to the camera. It felt a little old fashioned to me. I definitely noticed the directing style. And that happens in shows when you have different directors for each episode. You get slightly different looks.

You know, they're going to look a little different. Yeah. When I come down to say, hey, SESCA's missing, I tell that to Chakote, I noticed that I, when I turned to profile, that my butt looked really good. Wow. I'm going to bring this up because, this is because Megan always says that I have no ass. She says, you have such a flat ass. And historically, in my 20s, 30s, I would say that I had a really good. But, bordering on, on, you know, it was a good butt.

Full butt. You had a full butt, man. Plenty of butt. What happened to it? Where did it go? Age. And lack of, yes, and lack of being in the gym. But now watching that is going to really give me sort of this incentive to really start doing

squats and getting that butt back to where it used to be. And so it kind of gets me mad whenever Megan goes like, you have a, you have a flat butt, you have no butt. And it makes me a little upset. And when I see that episode, I really want to be able to show that to her and say, look. Yeah, you need to get a screen grab at that moment. Of that moment. Close up, zoom in on the butt.

And then just make it ear like your home screen on your phone or something. Exactly. And also in that scene, the famous Leola route is finally introduced. Oh, I made the same note. I made the same note. So, yes, because Neelix, Johnny Phillips, Ethan Phillips, for years, would talk about Leola Root, and that was the first time I think we brought it up. By the way, it was ginger root with something else stuck on top.

Add it on top. Yeah, that's what the props department used to do with our crazy food. They would take two very often Asian foods because they seem the most kind of sci-fi and exotic. But they take two of them and, you know, combine them into some weird alien food. Into a hybrid food, exactly. And yeah, and I don't remember Chakotay biting it off and it being that bitter. And the fact that Nielix mentions, you know, you'll get over the mildew taste or whatever. And I was like, oh, my God, it really is kind of, you know, natural. That sounds disgusting. Where did they film that? I was wondering, because we never went on location. So that was very unusual to see us opening up on an exterior location.

We almost, I think we would go out maybe once or twice a year. Yeah. To location. So do you remember what that was? No. Do you think that was in Victorville? I don't know. I mean, I just, I don't think they would spend the budget on going that far for that

one scene, you know? So I'm going to guess, I'm going to guess Bronson Caves. Those caves have been in once in how we shot the 37s that one. episode with Emilio Earhart that's coming up later. So I think maybe, because there's that scene where Chocote finds Cessca in the caves, right? So I'm thinking that cave was the Bronson Caves, up in Bronson, which is in L.A., right? And that's up in Hollywood. It's most people would recognize this from the old Batman series in the 60s when the Batmobile comes out of the, you know, the mansion, the Batcave. The Batcave. When it comes out.

out of the back cave, you see that car coming out of the big opening of, that was Bronson Caves. That's the same cave. Yeah. By the way, so Chocote goes into that, he goes into that cave, but then I wondered if like when Cessca appears and almost shoots him and there's a quick shootout, I wondered if they had shot parts of that on our standing cave set. Stage 16. Yeah. It seemed like it maybe was partially at a location when Chukotay first goes in and then partially on our standing sets, but not clear. Yeah, it's interesting how they added that line when Chukotay and Sessa sort of bump into each other in the caves.

And she says, bless the prophets. So she uses something that a Bajoran would say, getting that set up, you know, for later to find out that she's not really Bajoran. So that's, yeah. By the way, I didn't realize how important the romance between Chakote and Cessca really was. Yeah, I didn't realize that they even had a romance before, but clearly they were in a relationship and they talk about, Chacote talks about, you know, we already agree that we're not going to go down this path, you know, so it's sort of like they were together, then they broke up, you know, but there's still that affection. towards each other. Yeah.

They mentioned in one of the earlier episodes of the season that we watched and recapped, there was a reference to them dating. And I remember clocking that and going, oh, that's interesting. I don't know which episode I forget. So they've already mentioned it. But in this episode, they definitely refer to it. I guess I would say that I almost wish in this episode early on when she brings, when Cessca brings to Cote, the mushroom.

soup. I wish it did seem like they were like he was kind of warming up to her and maybe going to get back into a relationship. I wish that they had gotten into a relationship because I feel like the betrayal and the humiliation that Chukote feels could have been more amplified if he had really, you know, even if it was just this one episode, like the mushroom soup could have led to them really okay you know what yeah like we're meant for each other because he you know getting him really hooked as opposed to i know that the value that they they they wanted to see was chikote saying wait a minute you broke into the kitchen like i'm a i'm a i'm a i'm a rules guy now and you can't break the rule but i felt like that took away from their romance and i think their

romance should have been built up even more i'd forgotten it as it was but i wish it had gotten and built up even more, because I think there could have been an emotional sort of betrayal that was even deeper with Chacote if he had committed to being back in a relationship with her. Well, I almost feel like it was already that deep. It's just that he was masking it and not really showing it how much it affected him, because that final scene of him approaching Tuvok, who definitely is not the person that he typically wants to go have counsel with, right, was really him just grabbing at any straws that he could because he was so betrayed because I feel that deep down he was he's always been in love with Cessca and from that scene

with the soup I almost felt like their relationship was more friends with benefits like they've been hooking up this whole time you know what I'm saying like that's been the underlying thing but they just haven't officially said that they were boyfriend and girlfriend but I still think that there was a physical relationship happening but the love was there. I do believe that it was there. Good. Yeah. I think that helps the story a lot. The more that that comes across. I also loved when Cessca goes, you know, and if you're not interested, I've got my eye on Harry. Again, Harry gets another girl. I don't know why Paris has the reputation for the ladies man, because Harry Kim, Chacote had more. Those guys had way more action

than Tom Paris. she had her eye out on young handsome Kim is what she said yeah look at that that would have been an interesting relationship so then when we get the Kazon distress call and we finally see you on the bridge finally your hair makes a perfect the front part makes a perfect wave like I thought

if I was a surfer I'd be thinking about I need to go surfing right now like that's a that's a surfable I can surf that hair wave. It looked really good. Your hair looked great. They spent so much time on our hair. Do you remember? Yes.

The moose and the product and the blowing and the shaping and the spraying. Yeah. We had a whole separate hair trailer. That was just hair. Remember that? So makeup and then hair. A lot of places it's makeup and hair together, but it was makeup and one hair and another.

So hair was a big, big deal. Big deal. You mentioned we saw the case. on ship and Janeway decides to get involved she's like you know what we don't know we don't have any friends in this you know quadrant and we're going to need all the friends we can get let's go try to help them the stranded ship the distress call and I'm thinking that's a bad call like you already know who the Kazon are yeah why are you going to engage I just immediately thought, that's a bad, that's a bad call, Janeway. Yeah, but Cessca says it later,

by the way. Saska says it later. But see, that also makes me wonder, her instinct of we need as many friends as we can get in this quadrant, let's go help them, is the same instinct that SESCA had before to give them the technology. If you think about that, it's, she was like, let's get allies, because we're in the middle of the Delta Quadrant, where we have no friends. So really, CESCA is already on the same wavelength as Janeway, just a little bit more advanced. She had already made the deal.

Okay, let me give you. And it's true, she didn't give them, she didn't give them our top secrets of weapon technology. She gave them our food replicator technology. It wasn't like, you know, it was major secrets of Starfleet. It was literally like, look, if I give you a little of this, then maybe you guys can, you know, help us out. And so I find it very interesting that SESCA, from the get-go, is kind of already thinking what Janeway ended up saying.

And yeah, you're right. Making that decision is probably not the smartest because we've already dealt with the Kazon already. And I'm sure all the different sects of Kazon, different tribes of Kazon tribes, they all communicate with each other. They already know that we were the ones that, you know, screwed up the array that could have helped that one Kazon sect. And now the word is out. The Voyager guys, those guys are from another. Yeah. They're bad, you know, look out for them, right?

I found it a very, a very risky, under the circumstances, very risky move to go, to do that. So, which leads to some of the problems in the episode, just the, I mean, all the problems, really. That just brings me back, though, to the first scene where there's Cazon in the cave. Why are they in the cave? Is that their base? I don't get it. You know, was that where she was... She was talking to them?

I don't understand either. Yeah, that's a detail that's not... That's kind of broad strokes that's not really tied up in this episode. Maybe there's an episode coming up with Seska that's going to, you know, when she'll be back. Yeah, wouldn't their weapons be set on kill instead of stun? Because, you know, they stun Chikote.

Like, he didn't die. And that's another thing that's... I thought, hmm, that's interesting. Yeah. Maybe that's because Cessca told them to. You know, Cessca was like, look, whenever you, you know, when you come across us, make sure you don't put it on kill because this is my lover, you know, I love him.

So that's probably the reason behind that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Cazon Bridge, when we see that, we see the Cazon that are dead that are kind of fused into the bulkheads of the bridge and stuff like that. That, to me, reminded me of something that I don't know if it's oh I cannot remember exactly what the story was but there was some type of conspiracy theory about the U.S. Navy back in the 40s or the 50s doing some type of research

I may have the decade wrong but that they were trying to do some type of research with some type of shifting and time stuff that went wrong and when everything went wrong that's exactly what happened, crewmen were fused into like the bridge and the walls just like in this episode. So I don't know if you remember anything like that in terms of whether it was a, I can't remember if this was something was either conspiracy theory or this was actually a movie that I had seen bits of something. But I seem to recall that, you know, something with the U.S. Navy trying to do some top secret type of research. and then weird happen like that.

So that's what that reminded me of. Wow. And the Kazon, let's just talk about what they're wearing. To me, when I look at their garb, when I look at what they're wearing, it looks very much like a Mongolian nomadic triumousman. Yeah, good, good call. Yeah. Right.

And then the hair here with this tribe, the Nistram, different from some of the Kazon from the pilot episode, where they interweaved the pig ears into their hair. Yeah. They put that in there, the pig ears that you feed dogs were put into their hair. These guys, they put sponges that were kind of colored into their hair, which made it really look like coral from the sea. So I thought, wow, now that reminds me of Pirates of the Caribbean,

where there is a guy who has coral coming out of him and everything, one of the one of the sequels to the first movie. And it's just so damn distracting. I really just really wish they did just found a different way to do their hair because they, I almost felt like, you know what, screw the hair, get rid of the hair entirely. Just be bald because their facial, you know, the makeup for their face alone is menacing enough.

You know what I'm saying? And with a bald head without any type of hair or maybe, you know, a single Mohawk, you know, a cross would have been really menacing. But when you're looking at that big thing of sea coral and afro together, it's just like, eh, you're doing nothing for me, you know? Yeah, it almost looks like they have.

Like they're too concerned with their hair. It takes away from their strength. Like they have to spend a lot of time to get that very self-aware, messy look that they have. Like they have to go to the salon a lot. They've got a, it's a very high-maintenance look, and it takes away from their threat. I feel like on the Kazon homeworld, every other business is a salon. So there's a hair salon on every. corner in the Kazan whirl, home world.

Yes. And they're so preoccupied with hair that they don't have time to develop technology like a replicator. Yeah. Or find water. Or find water, exactly. Two elements. Hydrogen and oxygen. Yep. That's it. That's all you need. That's just... They can build a spaceship, but they can't find two elements and mix them together. Um, yeah, it's just two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. That's all you need. You got, we've got one ingredients. What else did I have? Kess and Sickbay. So when they bring the body in,

the body who's still alive, still has some life signs, and Kess is helping the doctor. She's very proactive. So you see that she's really learning. Like she's got a solution. She says, this many milligrams of this,

and I'll run a ball of test. And like, you know what I mean? She knows, which I think is great to see her. She's done her homework. Yeah. She's getting more proactive. You know, that away team that went over to the Kazan ship and saw the bodies all fused.

Yeah. I mean, that could have been an opportunity for you or I to be on an away team. Like Balana and Tuvac and Chukotay, like I get that they had the whole story with Cesska, but it would have been nice. I just, as I look back on some of these episodes and I see some characters that are just sitting on the bench for a long time, like myself at this point.

Artem is like, wow, I wish that they had kept, you know, some of, some of us a little more involved. Like you were on the away mission to the planet, but then that's about it, right? Yeah. That's it. That's all you had. I'm going to blit.

It wouldn't have taken away from the tourism engineering and Chakote. It wouldn't have taken away if there had been some other involvement by people, on the on the away mission to find the bodies that's all i agree with you and i i also have to say that part of that is is your fault why why because tom paris is always saying i'm the best pilot you could have and so you know this bombardment of i'm the best pilot i'm the best pilot i'm the best pilot everyone thinks that so then whenever we choose an away team they're thinking not paris he's the best pilot we have so we can't really risk him yeah so i think you kind of kind of like, you pushed yourself into a corner on your own.

You should have said like, I didn't do it. I didn't do a pretty damn good, I know, I know you didn't. So the writers pushed you into a corner because now they're basically, if they wrote you saying, I'm a pretty good pilot, you would have been on more away missions. That's all. I'm okay. I'm an average. I'm average.

You got a bunch of good pilots. You could have said, I'm better than most is all you could have said. And then then you would be on more away teams, I think. Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer? Oh, my gosh, so much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane. Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me.

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That's mintmobile.com slash TDF. Up front payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See MintMobile for details. The scene in engineering when Bologna tells the captain that she doesn't exaggerate. I love that.

Janeway is just like, she's like, can have this done by tomorrow, Captain. And Jane was like, I'll have, I need that done by tonight. And she's like, no, no, Captain, when I say tomorrow, I really mean tomorrow. And so that to me, that's a first because typically, you know, when you watch the original series, if Kirk says something to Scotty, Scotty's like, fine, captain, right, I'm on it, you know. And he never says like, no, okay, I can't get it to you in an hour. I'll get it to you in seven hours because that's what I told you already. He never says that.

He always ends up agreeing with the captain. I also think that it is a big deal. That moment stood out to me as well. And I wish that they had slowed it down a little. It seemed to go by very quickly. Like she got, Lana got very combative. And the captain sort of went, well, okay, tomorrow it is.

And then they were like, okay. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? There could have been a bit of a buildup of like, you know, Torres saying something and not knowing what Janeway's how she's going to react like holy crap i just talked back to the captain some silence and some looks around you know that it would have been nice to see other people's reactions to like oh boy it's on and then the kind of finish of okay all right i'll let you go get away with that but it just

flew by it was like when i say tomorrow i mean tomorrow oh okay then what that just happened can i Can anybody do that? Like, it didn't seem like a big deal. Can I talk back? Can I tell the captain? No, but that falls in line with over the seven years. None of us would mess with Roxanne because of the fact that she was, she's in another, she's in another whole other galaxy, really, right?

So I married her. Yes, she's a sassy one. So you just let her be sassy. We already know that. One thing before, before we go to engineering, after Sick Bay, they find, they transport over the Kazon. And then there's Janeway and Tuvac and Chiquotay walk-and-talk from Sickbay to the turbo lift. And then they stopped the turbo lift. What came back to me so vividly was as they walked out of Sick Bay and they're heading down towards the corner.

They were walking really slow. And I was like, why are they walking so slow? I paused it. I went back. And I was like, oh, yeah. I remembered this. We used to try to time the scenes. Do you remember rehearsing, walk those.

walk-and-talks? Yes. So for everybody, just so you know, they would write these scenes, you know, that they are heading from sick bay to a turbo lift, or they're heading from someplace to someplace in a hallway. But the scenes wouldn't always fit the length of the hallway, exactly, right? Like if you're a normal person walking, you'd still be talking and you'd run out of a hallway or or you'd want to get in the turbo lift but you still had 30 feet to go. So it was really an art when we rehearsed. We'd actually go to the end often like at the turbo lift and we'd start walking backwards. Yeah. And we'd figure out where we start so that saying the lines, saying the lines so that you'd figure out where you start talking so that you can end up at

the turbo lift at the right line. But sometimes you'd have to come out of sick bay like the scene and you'd have to make the dialogue last all the way to the turbo lift and they had too much dialogue. That's why they were walking so slow. So you watch them walking and it's like, why are they these really slow steps and then turning the corner and they're still because there seems to be some urgency like they'd be moving a little faster. So I thought that I just had such vivid memories of those hallway scenes and we basically had kind of two hallways we had one that sort of snaked around from the holodeck past sick bay past another short hallway to a turbo lift and then down around to engineering that was basically our one number one hallway and it kind of made

a a bit of a serpentine like an s shape sort yeah and then there was the one short hallway but sometimes we'd have to piece together, we'd have to cheat it as if we were walking down a much longer hallway because we didn't have enough. We just didn't have enough room, yeah. They should have made like a, you know, like a treadmill like floor that sort of moved. So then we're just walking in place and it's fine. It's okay. But yeah, you're right. It was all about timing that perfectly. And a lot of times we had too much dialogue and it didn't fit. Right. So walk extra slowly. So the introduction of the Kazon Nistram leader is first Maj Kala,

played by Anthony DeLongas, who we both know. Yes. Anthony DeLongas, just to give a little background, he was my movement and stage combat professor at UCLA, at the UCLA Theater Department. And wonderful, wonderful guy. He also instructed Michelle Pfeiffer when she played Catwoman in the use of her bullwhip

because he is a master bullwhip wielder. He was also in one of my other guilty pleasure movies other than Masters of the Universe would have to be Roadhouse with Patrick's. He played the lead bad guy in that, well, not the lead one,

but he was like a secondary henchman. He was the one that he flipped a switch and a little knife came out of his boot and he was trying to kick Patrick Swayze with that knife that was the blade that was attached to his boot. And he was the one that drove the big monster truck all over the dealership cars and everything like that.

That was Anthony DeLongas. And it was just super nice to see him on set, even though I didn't have really much to do in terms of scenes with him, but just to know that he was on the college, you know, and I came on a day that I wasn't working to say hi to him. Because this was my old teacher, you know.

And you've worked with him before, right? Yeah, we did Masters of the Universe. He played Blade, I think, was the character. So he had all these swords and things. But I remember even on Masters of the Universe, he would always play with that bullwhip. Like he was, that's his thing. That's his specialty.

And I think we brought him on to Chuck. I think I know he auditioned a bunch. I kept trying to use him on Chuck. But Anthony's awesome. he's a good he's a good man yeah dunce and acting and and teaching and all kinds of things he's old school guy really yeah i keep wanting to go back yeah go back cessca goes rogue chukotay defends her i i guess at that point when chukotay first defended her i felt like it wasn't earned or sincere because he's defending her emotionally but again because in that earlier scene when she made tomato soup

I'm sorry, not tomato soup, mushroom soup. I just, I love hot tomato soup. When she made the mushroom soup and then he realized that she had broken in, he got so angry at her that I just didn't buy his defense. Like he's defending her like, no way. She would never do anything. And he just saw her steal from the, so I found that a little confusing. And I thought Robert did a great job in this.

episode. I thought Martha Hackett did a great job, but I found some of that relationship and some of the detail a little conflicted, that, you know, why is he defending her so hard when he's already shown that he is all about the rules and he's seen her break the rules, but yet it's like he forgot about that. I don't know. I struggled with the consistency. Do you feel that if they, if in prior episodes, they showed more backstory of their relationship? they're how close they were. Maybe that would have made this payoff. Exactly. I think it was under it was underdeveloped for this episode. Agreed. They tried to squeeze everything into this one episode and it's hard to do all of that. I thought Lieutenant Carey said Torres very differently

than everyone else. Torres. Torres. Torres. I don't know. Lieutenant Carey was like he's got very good speech, by the way. Super top-notch grade A. Surloin speech. We create a asparagus speech. We got to get him. We have to get him on this show. We need to get him on this show

for sure. His enunciation is phenomenal. He's good. It is phenomenal, but he said Torres. I was like, you just lost points. I'm going to go back and watch that. When Terry, Lieutenant Carey, is called into the captain's office, by the way.

The interrogation? The interrogation scene. There's a beautiful, beautiful backlight on Janeway. But what happens with a backlight is it lights up all those flyaway hairs. I had a flashback to sometimes we would get stuck in these scenes and Kate would get so frustrated. because, you know, she'd get ready on her mark and action. And she'd get the emotion going and she's acting. And they'd say, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.

And she'd be, what, what? And they'd say, oh, fly away hair or hair. Can we have hair come in? And she would get so angry. Do you remember that? Yes. Now that you brought that up, I remember that. Oh, my God.

You're right. There times when she would be, because as an actor, especially when you know you've nailed it, and then discover that you've, got to redo that scene because of a fly away in the hair. It's so annoying. And so she would really, you're right, she got so mad of that.

And that happened with her more than anybody else, because I don't, you know, I didn't, you didn't get a back light when you're sitting on the bridge. I didn't get a backlight my station. So really it was mostly for her, right? And Janeway didn't, she wasn't always lit quite so glamorously. But in that interrogation scene with Carrie,

you can see it. You can see that glamor light on the back. You can see all these flyways. And I'm surprised that I, she might have just said, stop it, I don't care. Yeah. You know, they probably tried to fix it and just gave up because sometimes it would really slow us down if they, if she had that sort of glamour light. Well, the times that I recall her being lit extra well were Colby episodes. And that's because Rick Colby began romancing Cape Mulgrew.

So that, yeah, yeah, so if you. think about that. I just remember there's an episode where the camera has this really slow, slow movement towards Kate, and it's just like the lights were perfect and the camera move was just perfect and everything was just about. And then anyone else in the scene, it was like, yeah, okay, just just put any old light on that person. Doesn't mean, it doesn't really matter. And does anyone have a cell phone? Just light them with a cell phone. That's good enough. You know, I mean, it was literally just like my homage to Kate, who I'm falling in love with. And that's true.

That is what happened. He did end up having a relationship with Cape Mowgoor, the actress, the director of Rick Colby. So let's see. Did you notice that Janeway, after Cesska beams out, and she says, Janeway says, you know, put a tractor beam on that ship. And then you report that, oh, wait, there's two more kids on ships coming. Janeway almost looks like she's about to cry. Did you, did you catch that?

I mean, to me, she felt, just for a split second, she was just, this emotion was coming up sort of like. She, I did notice in this episode, she was getting emotional in places I was surprised, like, like vulnerable in places that I was surprised to see the vulnerability. Yeah. I think that's one thing that a lot of people love about her performance and her character was the ability to connect with her vulnerability

in ways that previous captains had not. You know, that Shatner had not connected with any vulnerability, per se. And Patrick Stewart, again, not so much vulnerability. Certainly intellectual curiosity and, you know, high intellect. But Kate's was from just a very vulnerable maternal place, you know. Well, she had more of that. And like I said in an earlier podcast that when Berman said, If you guys put too much emotion into it, you're going to get a memo saying to reshoot that scene.

And I talked about, I reshot three scenes, season one. Janeway, we shot 30 scenes. I'm really curious to know when we do interview Kate, whether or not this was an episode that she had to reshoot some scenes from. Because really, I think she let the waterworks flow. And they were like, nope, that's way too much. And so I would be curious to ask her, I'm going to make a mental note to ask her about state of folks to see, just in case. The whole bit about CESCA really not giving her blood sample because she's hiding the fact that she is Cardassian. That to me, I'm wondering, because Discovery, I don't think you really watched, followed the Discovery episodes, the newer Star Trek.

Some of them. Okay. Because there's a character played by the British actor Shazad Lateef. He plays Ash Tyler. Ash Tyler is human. But Ash Tyler, in reality, was Klingon, the character Volk. And Volk had been changed to human, like altered, genetic, plastic surgery, whatever it was, completely altered to be human.

And I'm just curious if those discovery writers were watching Voyager. And this was, you know, this whole thing with... Interesting. Yeah. Cardassian being made to look like a Bajoran was really... an influence of discovery. Who knows, maybe? By the way, the captain in the, in sick bay,

when Anthony DeLongis is in there, and she's whispering to the doctor. Do you remember they have sort of a side conversation? It's like, wait a minute, you guys walked away, five feet away. That set is not that big. You can't have whisper conversations in a silent sick bay five feet away. so I just I found that to be I mean it works it's it's classic filmmaking cheating but knowing how big that set was it's not that big it was a pretty small you know not certainly not big enough to be in the same room and whispering like she was

and to add on to that scene I also felt that when the guy flips that little switch and that little the needle comes out of his ring it's like that whole scene was just done so quickly it was like blah blah blah and it wasn't whatever camera angle that that director chose to use and into the pacing. It just was sort of like, what's going on here? It wasn't where, as believable as I thought it could be. Yeah. Yeah, it was, again, it felt kind of old-fashioned to me. It felt like the original series. Like just meat and potatoes, nothing special, nothing too complicated.

Yeah. Very proud of Kess, who, you know, kind of caught the blood thing and the data bank, which led to, you know, Kess, again, very critical character in early seasons. Like, you know, she was on top of it. I loved, when Kate said this line, I remember shooting this because she loved saying this line. And, you know, when you're filming,

we don't just film Kate, say the line once. She says it on her, on the master of the wide shot. She says it on a tighter shot of her. She says it maybe from this side. she says she probably says the lines you know a couple dozen times she relished every time every take this line when she says she says you know I'm really easy to get along with most of the time but I don't like bullies and I don't like threats and I don't like you calla yeah she loved that line I remember I can when as soon as she said it I can picture sitting down in the in the in the

in the well down there, down in the front seat and watching Kate say this line so many different ways and so many different times. I don't like most of the time, but I don't like bullies and I don't like threats and I don't like you. She loved that line. A very big female empowerment scene for sure.

Yeah. I didn't like when Cessca says Chiquote, go ask your animal guide. I got uncomfortable there. I don't know why. It just was like politically incorrect. Like, don't write it. Don't even have bad guys say that kind of stuff.

Cessca's voice began to change when she turned Cardassian. When it was revealed that she was Cardassian and she couldn't hide it anymore. Did you notice her voice changed? The voice, the quality of her voice. Yeah, like instead of this soft sort of non-threatening voice, she started getting a very threatening, strong voice. It was a great actor choice, I thought. Yeah. Yeah.

And the last thing, right when Robert, when Chikote came in the mess hall to talk to Tuvok, a couple last things, when that door opened to the hallway where Robert was coming from, do you remember at the end of the hallway, at the end of the mess hall, there was some doors that went out to a big open hallway. And then there was the skinny hallway that went between, you know, down the middle of that set. Yeah. But I remember waiting in that big open hallway for entrances into the mess hall often. And because it was so big and open, it just begged for more silliness.

And I remember like being out there and like in the middle of like dancing around like goofy and all of a sudden you'd hear the door start to open and we just started walking in to the mess hall. I don't know why that particular end because it was big and open. It wasn't it wasn't just a small hallway coming in. It was kind of you could make a big way. wide turn. And I just, I, I often remember being out there waiting for a queue to enter the mess hall and acting, just goofing off and getting caught and things like that. And, and by the way, so Chacote says to Tupac at the end, he goes, he goes, let me just ask you, did you, did you

have any idea that it was Cessca? Like, and Tupac's like, no, I didn't, you know, misery love company set up. Yeah. And I'm thinking, are you kidding me? Both are you idiots? Never, it never occurred to you. Like every audience member that's been watching this knows that she's trouble. And she's admitted to you, Trote, that she stole, and she wants to break rules and not listen to the captain and take, like, I just don't buy it that you never. Those kind of things bug me when it's like, I get the point they were trying to make as writers, but you've already seen her. reveal herself to Chakotay, certainly. Yeah.

And Tuvok's not an idiot. So, like, no. I just don't buy that they both go, yeah, we, nobody saw this one coming. Don't buy it. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Are you good? That's all I got. It's interesting to me is you got, you really became very opinionated on this episode, like things that you liked and didn't like. Interesting. You were quite critical of this particular episode, which I'm surprised. So I don't know.

Is there something going on in your life that you haven't told me? Maybe I'm hungry. Maybe I'm just hungry. You're hangary, not hungry, but hangary. Angry and hungry together. So Robbie, what do you, what would you say would be the underlying message or, you know, what can we learn? Well, how can we better our lives from any type of the themes from this episode?

So, state of flux. Huh. I think that to go along with kind of where my focus and theme has been the Chukotay-Seska relationship, I think the lesson is how easily we can all let our emotions and our relationships distort our vision to really see what's really going on in front of us. And Chukotay wanted to believe Zeska. He wanted to trust her. He wanted to be able to rely on her so much that his emotions about her got in the way.

And he wasn't able to, I mean, Tuvok says it in that, I think, that final scene, something like that. Yeah. You humans let your emotions affect cloud your thinking. and yeah this episode wasn't as easy to kind of extract a lesson for humanity than other episodes so for me I'm just going to since there were so many adages and old sayings being used I'm going to basically say beware of a wolf in sheep's clothing or specifically for this episode, beware of a Cardassian in Bajoran clothing.

Yeah. Nice. You like that? That's a nice saying. All right. Or maybe I should alter that like. Beware of a Cardassian in Bajoran face. Bajoran genetics.

Genetics. Bajoran makeover. Yes. Nice. I like it. Okay, so that would be our recap and analysis of state of flux. Thanks so much, guys, for tuning in, and we look forward to next week's episode, Heroes and Demons.

We'll see you then.