The Delta Flyers - The Abandoned

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode, Second Skin, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, & Armin Shimerman.The Abandoned: A Boslic captain talks Quark into purchasing the wreckage of a ship that crashed in the Gamma Quadrant. We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Tom Paynter, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Tim Neumark, Randy Hawke, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, & Sean T.Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Courtney Lucas, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Danie Crofoot, Steve Lugo, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Kevin Harlow, & Hailey L.And our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Shanyn Behn, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Crystal Powell, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Mark Lacey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Robert Allen Stifflerf, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Karen Galleski, Zackery Voss, Jeremy Conoley-Mayes, Loretta Reyes, Timothy McMichens, Dawn Colleen Smith, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, & Douglas Lawrence-Plant, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, & Oscar FernandezThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9. Your host for today are my fellow Trek actors, Armand Shimmerman, Garrett Wong, and myself Robert Duncan McNeil. For the complete and super cool version of, version of this podcast, check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron today. And check out all the bonus material that we have. I have to compliment Garrett

on his Hawaiian dance that he did. Oh, did you like that. Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole. Yeah. It's the secret club. It's a secret club handshake with all of our Patreon patrons is what it is. Exactly. Very funny. Armand, how are you? You're headed off for one of on a holiday soon. Yes, in six days from now, I will be headed towards Greece, where we'll spend 12 days on a ship visiting all the Greek islands and all the archaeological sites. Places that I've read about for all my life,

I'm looking forward to actually stepping on the stones that ancient Greeks stood on as well. Yeah, so exciting. I've never been to Greece. I would love to go as well. It's something we've always wanted to do. When I was in high school, the only place I wanted to go to Greece, and now, what, 50, 60 years later, I'm finally going.

Good for you guys. Per our conversation before, I learned of this trip quite a while ago. I did mention to Armin, I said, I'm coming. I'm going to buy my own passage. And, of course, my schedule does not permit that, but I wish I could be there as well. I wish you could, but there's a part of me that says, I'm glad Garrett's not coming. Have a nice romantic trip with Kitty and Garrett. Exactly.

Third wheel, Garrett. Arm and Kitty, can I sit here and eat with you, please? You're like, we have a romantic. Can I sit between you? Is that okay? Can I sit between you two on your anniversary dinner, please? Very funny. We have a couple birthdays to go through right now.

So first of all, we want to say, happy birthday to Izzy Jaffer on December 22nd. Happy birthday, Izzy. Happy birthday, Izzy. Happy birthday, Izzy. You share a birthday with Lisa Hill, who is also on December 22nd. Happy birthday, Lisa. Happy birthday, Lisa. Happy birthday, Lisa Hill.

Nice, Garrett. All right. It's time for poetry synopsis of this episode. The Abandoned. The Abandoned. Robbie, Limerick, please. Here we go with our Limerick for the Abandoned. Quark finds a baby who's not who we thought.

He's a Gem Hadar Who's grown up in a shot Odo tries an adoption To give the boy another option But watch out when you play Jake in Dom Jot Very good Here's my haiku

Brash yields an infant Rapid growth He's Gem Hadar Odo can't control All right Nice Thank you Abandon

That's the word I focused on It's from the old friend I think I'm mispronance, abandoning that, but that's what my dictionary says. Yeah. There are several definitions for abandon. The first is to leave to anyone's mercy or discretion. I think that's appropriate for this episode. Yeah.

Two, to substitute absolutely. I don't understand that definition, but that's what the dictionary said. Three, to give up absolutely, to give up the control or discretion of another. That's certainly pertinent. Yes, yes, yes. Four, to give oneself up without resistance to yield oneself unrestrained. I don't think that applies here, but maybe it does. Five, to sacrifice, devote, or surrender. In the B story, I think it applies there, to sacrifice, devote, or surrender. And six, to give oneself up without resistance as the mastery of a passion or understanding or unreasoning or unreasoning impulse, which I think does apply to Odo, if anyone.

Yeah. This word, as far as I can tell, was first used in English around 1386. 1386. Wow. I was not around then. I am old, but not that old. I was. I was there. Actually, I originated this word. Oh. No applause, please. We have guest stars. We have Bumper Robinson as the teenage. Gem Hadar. Well, I saw the name and I thought, what? Is this the same actor?

And it is. This is the actor who played Zamis in one of my favorite cult sci-fi films, Enemy Mine. He plays the young child of Willis Gossett Jr.'s Because Willis Gossett Jr. plays the main alien. And then he has a child. And the child is played by Bumper Robinson in 1985. It's a 1985 film.

And that movie is going to. be remade by none other than our PA turned showrunner. Oh, really? Terry's remaking it? Territalus has that gig, so. Wow. Maybe Bumper Robinson should be

in it. He should. I actually texted him, and I said, listen, this has been my biggest, one of my favorite cult sci-fi films of all time. That would be great. I said, could you please, please, just cast me as a rock on the planet. I'm fine. I'll play an inanimate object. I don't care. I don't have to have any lines. I just want to be in this

goddamn film. I mean, I love that movie. So, very excited that, you know, this may be, hopefully it doesn't get passed off. You know how Hollywood can, you know, someone can be attached to something and then they switch it up or whatever. So hopefully Terry stays on for the entire time. That'll be amazing. We also have Joe Serre as Marta. Finally, we meet Marta. Yeah. The famous Marta that Jake's talked about. Okay, guys, when we see Marta sitting next to Jake, honestly, to me, she looks 10 years or 15 years older than him. Easily. Easily. But in reality, in real life, we're talking about not much at all. Really? Yes. Yeah. No, less Robbie. Really? Sirach Lofton is born August 7th, 1978. Miss Jill Serre is born January 6th.

1976. There's two and a half years difference between the two. Wow. Very hard to believe because she looks like a mature, mature woman. Am I right, Armin? Come on. Yes, yes, absolutely. But I wouldn't trust your reference places. Oh, or that the actress gave the correct age. Yeah, that's true. I just would find that a little hard to believe. Although any one of our listeners out there grow up with Jill Serre, please comment. I'd like to know what year she graduate in high school, yes. I'm on Team Cisco with that issue. Like, she is far too old and worldly for young Jake.

Yeah, Robbie, like if your son, either of your sons came home with a woman that looked that much older than he was, you would have taken some, you know, precautions or you would have been hard to manage because just like for Cisco, like how do you talk your kid out of feelings they're having, but yeah, it's tricky. I'm going to take a cue from this episode and ask this question. Yes. Why? Why do you feel uncomfortable with that?

I think that Jake, to me, they say he's 16 in this episode, but he looks younger than that to me. He seems younger than that. I don't think he's younger than 16. I think Sirac is probably about that age at this episode. About that age at this time. But I think that at that point in a kid, whether it's a boy or a girl, teenager. There's so much change happening developmentally and these experiences that to throw in a much older, and maybe in real life she wasn't much older, but in the story, she seemed

easily 10 years, if not more, older. And also, like, her experience seems challenging. Well, it's the preconceptions of what we think about certain things. I think that is indicative of this entire episode. That's why I asked the question. That is right. I guess here's the thing I'll say about it. I noticed, and we'll get into it in the first scene, I noticed in Quarks, and this is not a shot at Quarks at all, but I notice there's often a real hyper-sexualization of the way that people interact with each other,

that Marta interacts in that first scene with the gambler, has an element of sexual manipulation. And in that sense, I would not want someone skilled those ways to be dating my young, innocent first relationship son. That doesn't seem like the right combo to me.

Now, you understand from my studies of Elizabethan times, it's not unusual for people to get married at 12 and 14. Oh, my goodness. I guess it's more cultural. It is cultural. Yeah, that's exactly. I think that's what this episode is talking about

cultural prejudices. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For sure. Next up, we have Leslie Bevis, who plays Rionage or Rionotch. Rionage is a character that appears not only in the second season, but the third and the fourth season of D.S.9. So this is a recurring alien character played by Leslie Bevis. And Leslie was in the scene where she was kissing your earlobe, your lobe, right? Yes.

We have Matthew Kimbrough as the alien high roller. Mm-hmm. That's the first scene. And if I may take a moment. Yeah. I talked about Joe Ruskin and the last time, was with you guys yeah who was a major uh union official so is matt kimbrough oh really matt kimbrough is was is uh well originally he was one of the leaders in the after union and then when it became

sag after uh he is still a leader in the in the new amalgamated union and he sits on the pension health fund for the after after a pension fund and a very nice man and is given his life to union politics oh wow thank you matthew yes absolutely he was great he was a lot of fun in that first scene he is a lot of yeah yeah uh we also have hasan nicholas as jem hadar boy i'm assuming this is the baby no not the baby but the second incarnation oh yes probably because there's baby then second, then sort of the 12-year-old and then the 18-year-old, right? Yeah, and then the Jam Hadar stops growing. I know, I noticed that too.

Yeah, he's finished. He suddenly stops at 16, 18, whatever it is. Yeah. But there's no credit for the little baby, though. So, yeah, I don't have anything for that. And the baby had to get makeup on, too. Had a little bit of a thing on the forehead there. Which they had to be very careful about it because there are state and probably federal rules

about what you can put on to babies. As I understand it, they had to create something that was attached simply with K.Y. Jelly. Right. That's correct. So in our show, Armin, we had one baby, who's part alien, that had these little horn thingies, like a ridge of horns, and they attached it via K.Y. Jelly. But as suiting went on, as hot as it was, it started sliding down, it started moving away from the original placement. So now the horns are all askew and everything, and they have to fix it. So, yeah, it's a lot of rules there in terms of how you can deal with baby skin,

which is the most tender of all types of skin, I suppose, most sensitive. Yeah, written by D. Thomas Mayo and Steve Warnock and directed by none other than Avery Brooks. Yeah. Felt very different, just as a general comment, I'll say. It definitely felt like he was trying some new things and, you know, shooting things a little different. Can I read a little something about Avery? Here we go. Director Avery Brooks saw this episode as something of a metaphorical study of racial tension and gang culture.

According to Brooks, quote, for me, it was very much a story about young brown men and to some extent a story about a society that is responsible for the creation of a generation of young men who are feared, who are addicted, who are potential killers. So he made the connection of the Gemma Dar with South Central L.A. or any gang culture. in America or the world, I guess. I assume they assign episodes to various directors. It may be that when Avery was notified of this script, although it would have to be way in advance, that he said, I want to do this one for that very reason. Yeah.

Often when director assignments happen, they don't know what stories exactly are going to happen. So I don't know if... It's a slot that they get. Isn't that right? When he took the slot, It was just a slot. But I bet you're right, Armand.

The writers probably thought, all right, if we gave Avery, episode five, whatever this is, let's look for something that's going to speak to him and let's talk to him. So they may have had stories they could have shot this later, but they decided to pull it up because this would be good for Avery or something. But, yeah, typically those slots are given early in the season before those stories are even broken. Yeah. So it's a random draw sometimes. of what you get.

I should tell everyone a little bit of Avery's background as a director. He was a professor at the University of Rutgers in New Jersey, and we're in the theater department where he taught directing. Not for the camera. I don't think. For theater, right? Directing for theater. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. Here's another little tidbit, guys. The events of the Voyager pilot episode Caretaker take place between this episode and the next one so it's between this one and the next one that Voyager actually that we go to your bar yes we go to corks and he tries to sell me low by crystals and i offend him and the low by crystals i found in the wreckage of this episode that's all coming together and i get saved by good old robbie macneal tom paris saves me what do you mean saved what do you mean saved he he comes and grabs me to take me

to Voyager. That's what he didn't say. Ah, I see. He escorts me to Voyager. Oh, that's just like I'm a disease. I'm saved from Quark. No, no. All right, let's jump into it. The first scene's in Quarks. I think it starts with this overhead shot, which I thought was very interesting. I liked it, actually. I think Rom or someone was... It's not Rom. It's Broick. It's David Levitt. Okay.

He's delivering drinks and we see him drop one off. And then it pans all the way around to see Quark leaning over the rail. And then tilts down to see the winnings of the table. So it was a really ambitious lighting setup. That was almost a full 360 around. Right. I mean, you have to like two different levels. You have to light the upper level and you have to light the lower level. Yeah. Very ambitious opening shot, but something I hadn't ever seen before. So I thought that was cool. Quark is not happy leaning over that rail about the winnings, all the shouting of Dabo down below. To this day, I'm not sure if Dabo means I won or I lost.

I'm not sure They seem happy about it I suppose In Hawaiian culture Aloha is hello Aloha is goodbye So you could be Win lose

Dabo same way However you pronounce it Well she says something Later on She says Karjenko Sorry That's the first time

We've heard that I'm like Karjiko What? Which sounds like Pachinko Which is a game In Japan

But I will say Yes Quark is not happy But Armin is happy that Matt Kimbrough is working that day. So there's a difference, yeah. So let's talk about Marta. Marta is the dealer, I guess.

I wrote Jake's girlfriend, question mark, question, mark. Oh, my goodness. Does not look like who I would picture Jake's girlfriend. Yeah, they definitely dressed her more maturely than a 16-year-old. She looks so much older than Joe. So much older. And she's talking to the gambler. We learned his name is Okolar.

He wants to leave. He's won a bunch of money. money. He wants to leave. She goes, well, you're on a look. You know, you got, you got a good lucky streak going. Why would you leave? Convinces him to stay. Roll one more time. And of course, he loses. She heads over to talk to Jake. I wrote down, how can he be in a bar? Like, isn't he a 16-year-old? Is it, is Quarks a restaurant or a bar, both? What is it? Both. Yeah, he's been there before. Has he been in there before? Yeah, yeah. I think he has, yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's the, again, the tone.

It's meant to be our Vegas is what it's meant to be. Well, she goes over to him and she's very excited for dinner with him and his dad. And Jake has taken by surprise, seems a little thrown. But he does say, oh, yeah, that was my idea. He kind of plays along with it. But you can tell he was thrown. Guys, I kept thinking, when she walked over, I said, this is not Marta. There's going to be another woman that comes in, a younger girl.

There's going to be someone that's more age appropriate that's going to pop in that's friends with this. So we're all on Team Cisco. So we're on teams, yeah. We don't. Well, maybe not Armin. I can't tell. Maybe not Armin. Maybe not Armin.

If people like each other, it doesn't bother me. It should not be a concept. Unless it's really inappropriate. I mean, if it's a 60-year-old man and a 15-year-old girl, that's wrong. Yeah, that's a little bit too much. But this is, what are we talking about? We're talking about a handful of years, really. Yeah.

I know it's a maturation process. I understand what you guys are saying. Right. But I think she answers it very cleverly. and wisely in the dinner scene. In the dinner scene. I agree with you. I agree with you.

Well, they talk about dinner, and then we cut over to Quark and Boslick, Leslie Bevis. No. No. She is Riona. Ryona. She's Riona. Well, why does it say Boslick here?

I know. In the script, it says Boslick. The IMDV page said Riona. Yeah, it says Rionage or whatever. So that's weird, Robbie. I wonder if it was scripted for another alien with a random name and then maybe the writers or someone said, oh, we use this other woman, bring her back, but they may not have ever changed the name in the script.

There's another possibility. Yeah. It was a ton of makeup that Leslie was wearing. Yeah. It happened on rare, rare occasions, but it did happen. When someone was put into that much makeup, they couldn't take it. it and they quit on the before the day was out and they get the stuff off me now i'm not saying it did happen but it is a scenario that could have happened but it's possible and then they said well

let's bring leslie has done this before so well definitely i just went back to the original script okay and it is scripted as a character named boss lick okay the very original script so they definitely wrote it maybe not with her in mind and she ended up getting it for however that happened what if you were to Google who played Boslik on DS9 what would pop up then would it say

oh that was actually changed to Rionage or does it a whole other name come up no Boslik is listed as an alternate name maybe it's an alternate name Ryona Boslik oh Boslik is the kind of alien here we go

Oh. Bosslick is the species of alien. Oh. Well, there you go. That explains it. Yes. Okay. Ooh. It's still weird that they wouldn't put Rionage on there.

You know, just put Riona on there. Why are you? Okay. Boslick is the type of alien. It's like just putting a Vulcan in for the character name. It's still weird, though. Yeah. Doesn't make sense.

Okay. Well, anyway, Boslick. Riona Boslick, Riona the Boslick, Riona the Boslick, talks a cork, yes, toxic quark about some junk. Yeah. She's got some salvage. Yeah. She's also super seductive. I felt so much sexual tension in this opening scene.

That's why I wasn't comfortable with Jake being there. He's just oozing sex in there. Anyway, she's very seductive to want some, to sell some salvage the cork. He tries to resist, but then she can. kisses your lobe and right we know it's it's as i watched that scene i thought oh yeah this is one of those instances where i'm probably not i have no idea what she's doing to me and therefore i don't react until i get until the kiss she does touch your lobe slightly very lightly but you didn't know she you didn't know she was doing that and it's like i yeah i probably saw her hand but i probably didn't

know where it was going so you know this is the problems with not being able to feel through the rubber yeah yeah i'm just wondering what's what's What's the way around that? Could the director have said, like, she's touching your lobe? Like, just yelled that out and just so you would have known that? I don't know. I could have asked her, and I probably. Yeah.

What are your actions going to, before, yeah, beforehand? But I can see as she's doing that, and I'm looking at the pad, I'm, I can almost hear myself thinking, you know, I don't know what she's doing up there. Is she patting the top of my head? Yeah, I mean, especially the red. The ridge over the eyes is so much rubber. How much rubber is that? I would say about three inches or four inches. At least.

Oh, my God. Wow. Next scene, we go to the cargo bay and he walks in. He obviously has bought this junk. Three bars of latinum. That's all it cost. Three bars of latinum. He got all this junk.

A lot of stuff. It's like that program where the people stand there and they auction off the storage units and you don't know what's inside there. You just have to bid on it, right? You get a cursory look real quick, and that's it. You can't rummage through everything. So, yeah, you won the bid there on that one. Well, he does say three bars of latinum.

He's looking around, I love this turn, Armand, when you go, three bars of latinum, like you're pissed off about it. And then you remember, yeah, it was worth it. It's worth it. I love that. Yeah. I love it. But there's baby sounds we hear. He goes and opens a pod that looks like, I don't know, it reminded me of, like, alien the movie, like the eggs.

opening or the way it opened yeah or the worm in dune or the worm yes yes that's exactly it exactly but there's steam or there's smoke coming out there's always smoke there's always smoke no it's always smoke no it doesn't have to be fire it could be it can be uh dry ice it doesn't have to be yeah that's true and it probably was dry ice my estimation i thought it was i thought it was gaseous anomaly being expelled from there so that's what it's jim and our babies farts is what it was Yeah. That's what they look like. Those Jim Hada, they're dangerous in many different ways. Many ways. As an infant, they have toxic gase anomaly coming out. There you go. But he opens this thing. We hear the baby. We don't see it yet, though. We just see Quark's reaction where he says, no, no, no, no, no.

No, no. We don't know. When you said that, honest, when your character says that, Armin, I'm thinking, is it deformed? Like, what's going on? I wasn't sure exactly what it was. Or just having the, maybe it's just having the responsibility of dealing with this child is what it was. Well, I think I had read the next scene that I was in and went, oh, yeah, this is going to be a problem. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, in the next scene, we go in the infirmary, and there's a tiny little baby with some prosthetic on its head. With a decal. Yeah, with a decal on its forehead. With a bumper sticker on its forehead. Yeah. Cisco is very mad though He storms in

You bought a child He's very mad at Quark Quark defends himself I just bought some junk Didn't know that the baby was there But sure doesn't recognize the species though If I may it's very slight But a slightly racial prejudice

Coming from Cisco Isn't there a rule of acquisition against this You know But the way you said rule of acquisition Is though you know Doesn't your culture have something about this

and I think I defend that yes there is and this doesn't usually happen and I don't buy things on sight and scene yeah yeah he was really mad

at the top of the scene and you don't want to be in front of Avery when he's really mad no but I think that his level of anger or shock about this or outrage contrasted nicely with where he ends up

at the end of the scene when he's holding the baby and suddenly he's made a turn oh I didn't expect to feel this this tenderness Avery is very good with children he is incredible he's the father of two

as far as I remember and his attention to Surrach over all those years was extraordinary yeah yeah you can feel it in this scene with the real infant baby you can feel that

that kind of fatherly instinct and that tenderness from him for sure. But Sisko wants to analyze this junk, find out where the baby came from, Quirk reluctantly gives him all the junk he just paid for, which I thought was a nice. It was painful for you to do, Armin, but. I paid good money for that wreckage, and now it's yours. Dax suggests that maybe they should look into the orphanage on Bejor, that they could take care of this baby, but when Cisco holds the baby, he clearly has this tenderness, this

warmth for children in real life and in the show. And it's nice to sort of see him with this baby and that fatherly side of him when his B story or this other story with Marta and Jake is also about being a father and issues like that. If we remember what Garrett told us about what Avery thought about this episode, that tenderness is not only real, but a choice as well because he wants to show that we don't know what babies are going to grow up to be and we should treat all people as though they're babies.

Yeah, yeah. The other thing, the orphanage thing. I mean, of course, when we first watched this episode, Dach says, we should contact one of the orphanages on Bajor. And I thought, that's a great idea. That's really good. But then after you see the entire episode and realize what the baby is, that's a very bad idea.

That's right. Very bad idea. Yes, thank God. didn't send the baby down there. Oh, right. Yeah, we go to the promenade on the upper level next. Dax and Cisco are walking. They walk and talk basically about how much Cisco misses when Jake was a baby. Right. So it kind of echoes that last moments of the last scene. And ties the A story and the B story together. Yeah. Correct. Yeah, exactly. And then Cisco goes back to his quarters. There's Jake lying on the couch, working on a pad. Jake is mad at his dad, though.

When Cisco comes in, hey, how about a hug for the old man? And Jake just turns away from it. Abruptly. Yes. Yeah, he's mad about this whole dinner thing, you know, mad that Cisco invited Marta without asking him. And Cisco says, I told you a few weeks ago that if you didn't invite her, I would. I didn't lie to you. And isn't this part of the maturation process for all humans? When people become teenagers, they begin to divorce themselves from their parents. They begin to get angry at their parents. They begin to self-assert. This is Jake's maturation process, again, emulating or imitating or mirroring the maturation process that's happening to the Jamadar.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Jake eventually kind of calms down a bit. And he's, you see Jake saying, oh, it's no big deal. It's just dinner. And Cisco's like, yeah, right. Just dinner. Right, right. They're both pretending to be very lighthearted about it, but it's clearly still an issue.

It's very simple. It's a very simple dialogue just to be exactly right, right, right. But it worked perfectly. I love that interaction. The awkward kind of walking eggshells with both of them. Yes. Yeah. We go back to the infirmary.

Francisco goes to see the baby who now suddenly is an adolescent boy, like 10 years old or something. They examine the kid. Shear says, biologically, he's only two weeks old, but he looks like a 10-year-old or something. You know, he looks much older. Oh, my gosh. And then the boy says he wants food. I need food. So he's speaking already.

That's a shock. That's a shock. Oh, yeah. He's two weeks old and he's speaking. Perfect English. Perfect English. Exactly. And he's got curiosity.

He says, I want to learn about the station when they tell him he's on a station. Yeah. Yeah, I want to learn about it. Yeah. This kid is, yeah, growing very quickly. While we're in the infirmary, I want to give kudos to Sidig Al-Fadil, or Alexander Sidig, depending on what name you want to use for him, for the incredible techno-babel that he had to spat all through this episode.

Yeah, he did. Oh, yeah. The doctor role on Star Trek always ends up with a lot of techno-babel. In this episode, I would say he had exponentially more. Yes. Yeah. But of all the DS9 characters, it's the doctor and it's Dax that have, I think, the most techno babble of. And that's a lot.

Yeah. And only the bartenders have to get the liquid in the glass. That's right. You got lucky, Armin. You'd have to regurgitate that techno babble. They're talking to this boy, 10 years old, 8, 9, 10, 12, whatever he is. Yeah. Whatever he looks like.

They're talking to him. And then they move aside to have a private conversation where Bashir says he's been genetically engineered. Maybe he's some kind of experiment, but there's definitely something has been altered in his physiology to help create this, you know, accelerated growth. Right. And Cisco says, well, track his mental development too because maybe he'll be able to tell us. Maybe as he grows, he'll just fill in the blanks here and tell us. They still don't know that he's Jim Hedar, right? No, not yet.

Not yet. Back in the cargo bay, Miles and Cisco are examining the junk. O'Brien's there. They're looking at the stasis chamber. They call it a stasis chamber. It's what Miles says it feels like. But Miles says no information from the junk yet on where the ship came from or where this baby's from. And then Cisco brings up the replicators. Hey, can you take a look at my replicators in my quarters? And O'Brien immediately knows, oh yeah, it's the dinner with me. Marta tonight, which I thought was very funny. So they're not only monitoring Quark in his conversations, but they're also monitoring Cisco in his conversations. There's definitely gossip or something. Cisco says in the scene that, you know, she's much too old for Jake. And he does say, I don't even want to like her, which I think is interesting. Like, he's not even open.

He's like, I don't want to like her. He's convinced this is going to prove that she's wrong. for j and and and for me that line i don't even want to like her again tiles the a story and the b story together because people's immediate reaction to the growing jem hadar is not that we want to find out more about this this entity this being this humanoid but rather i don't even want to like that person and and there's a shot that avery got uh when when it's coming up soon where uh gemadar is coming out of the infirmity and people reacting to the sight of him. Yeah.

Just inexplicable, either terror or they're going to put up a fight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was an interesting choice. That shot you're talking about. We'll get into it. But I thought Avery made an interesting choice to shoot it that way.

This is also the scene where we get the age difference on screen. It's 16 and 20. They're saying that she's 20, Marta's 20, and Jake is 16. There's only four years difference, but to our eye, it looks like there's a much bigger gap. Well, it's funny, like, Armin, you just mentioned, you know, developmentally, Jake is going through those kind of separation motions. You know, he's getting angry. He's separating and growing up from his father.

He's got hormones, just like the Gemadar does. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But he's beginning some of those steps of maturity. Whereas I think my issue isn't whether Marta's four years older or 14 years older. It's her experience. She's gone through a lot of other development things that Jake hasn't, even if she's only four years older. It feels that way.

It feels like, and she does talk about it later. She was an orphan. She was on her own. So forced to mature faster because of love to parents. That's the thing. It's not the chronological age to me. It's the, are your experience, you know, are these experiences going to benefit each other or not? It's an excellent point, but we're also given information that Jake is not quite the ingenue that we think of him, that he's quite capable of some very adult ideas, including writing, including right, which will be a huge factor later on.

Later, but right here, it's definitely the first time they talk about his ability to write poetry or anything. We don't hear about that beforehand. I do, after Cisco leaves, I do love O'Brien's line. So beautiful. 16 years old and dating a Dabo girl. Godspeed, Jake. Like he's literally like good, good on, yeah, have fun, yeah. Wow, wowzers, yeah, I just. And remember that cake goes away on Bejure somewhere. Yes, that's right. That's right. We go to a corridor next. Kira's there carrying a very large kind of potted plant of some kind, flowers or something like that.

She rings the doorbell. Odo grumpily kind of opens the door, shuts it right behind him, you know, what she here for. he assumes it's because everybody wants to see his quarters, so he reluctantly lets her inside. Before he lets her in, did anyone catch the doors? I don't know how they got, but there's a crack in the door where the light is coming through. Oh, really? Oh, no. And I'm going, didn't anyone see that?

You did. Oh, I didn't. You did, yeah. It's not a big crack. It's about half a finger width, but light is coming through. On the side? Or on the top? In the middle.

It was right in the middle. It didn't do a clear, a clean close. Okay. Ours would bounce. I don't know if your doors would sort of bounce a little. Yeah. But they're supposed to completely close. That's what they're supposed to do.

Right. Oh, well. They are. They need O'Brien to come fix it. They need somebody. Somebody. I think O'Brien's the wrong union. But yeah, okay.

O'Brien's. Well, he reluctantly lets Kear inside where we see there's not any traditional furniture or anything like that. There's just all these objects. It's almost like a museum in a way, a very tight museum. At first I thought, oh,

God, Odo's into some kinky stuff here. Major Gira, have you seen my sex dungeon? And you're like, that's what I thought it was my first sign. When you see the big thing in the middle, it looks like something you would,

like a torture device or a, Or an exercise thing. It looks like something that would be pitched on, you know, on television where you can order this exercise whole thing to come to your house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but there's all kinds of objects around. There's, you know, metal things and all kinds of things.

Shapes, interesting shapes. Shapes and textures and finishes. And he's really excited because he can, he says to Kira, now I can experiment with what it means to be a shapeshifter. Which is a reference, everybody, to. to that episode where we see when he's on the home world, where, if you recall, the female changeling told him, enjoy the arboretum, enjoy the garden, and try to take on all the shapes of everything in this garden.

Kind of be one with everything. Yeah, so he's sort of, the potential that you have as a changeling. So that, I think, influenced his, his decor, how he designed and decorated this area to sort of match that, that garden that we saw in the home world. He does put the plant in what I did not know. that's the bucket he regenerates in yeah so he did that as a way to show how much he cares about about this gift from her yeah i'm gonna put it in my special there is something interesting going on between the two actors yeah on screen going whoa that's that's very friendly indeed very

friendly indeed oh yeah well we've established this odo i feel like i've seen on major kira so we've already seen that he likes her in that way but she obviously went she's waiting outside the door with her plant, it's obvious that she's got great anticipation to see him. I don't think it's just a curiosity about the room. Yeah, but it's, I feel like it's more as a friend, a deep, deep, caring, loving friend, as opposed to like. Romance. That's romance.

I see romance one-sided, him to her, but not her to him. Really? Yeah, I don't know, but that's just my take. It's felt inconsistent to me. Okay. So far in the series. Right. I've seen moments of them with a romance.

kind of vibe going. And I think the actors are the ones that sort of planted this idea in the writer's minds, if I'm not wrong. Right. Because we've seen some of those very tender, deeply connected moments between the two actors. But then then the next episode, or even within the same episode, sometimes they're just back to business. And you don't feel that tracking as much.

But I also see she's not romantically interested in Odo because she has a romantic interest. She's dating Vedic Barrio. That's her man, you know? So, and as much as we don't like that union and how we feel that the chemistry is not there, that's a fact. Technically, she's still got a thing there. But they're polyamorous, Bajorans. Robbie. Not a lot of people know that, but.

Really? I didn't, I never saw that anywhere that they're poly, but if you're going to go to. It's just a thing that I think of when I look at Bajorans. I don't know if anybody else thinks of it. Anyway, yeah, we learned he's not sleeping in it. his bucket anymore because he puts the plant in the bucket. And then we go back to the replomat. Bashir is filling Daxon on the boy and everything. He's sure that this boy's genes have been altered. He's absolutely convinced. But he said there's a flaw that this boy needs this enzyme, this isogenic

enzyme, or he could die. And he's trying to replicate it. He's not having any luck. But he doesn't understand why they would genetically engineer this kid this way when there's such an obvious flaw. Why would the flaw be engineered into this? Engineered, yeah. And so it doesn't make sense. Suddenly he gets a call to the infirmary. And this is where we go into that shot, Armand you were talking about, the point of view, which will learn the point of view is the boy's point of view.

So a door opens from the infirmary. The point of view goes out. We see Sue Henley, our Captain Janeway, stand in. She's the first one. She's the first person to be shocked and she steps back a little bit. bit. That's Sue. That's Sue. And Sue had a, had a Janeway bun on in this scene. She did, but she wasn't wearing, here's a thing, she's wearing regular civy clothes, but there's been multiple times that Sue Henley is in Janeway's command red in the background. I've caught. Really? Yes. Well,

because the costume fits. I've caught it four times now recently. So she's there over and over again, sort of almost foreshadowing Janeway, a red-headed captain with a button under here, basically. Yeah. That was fun for us to see, Armin, though. It was. I like seeing Sue. I understand. But this point of view goes to Sue. It goes to another guy, like you said, Armand.

The next person puts up their fists like they're going to fight. It's instinct. It's instinctual reactions. Yes. Extinctual reactions. I just love for Armin. Armand's like, Sue, who? And then the two of us are like, oh, my God.

Sue Henley. Sue Henley, Sighting. Well, that's why I'm very specific. It's not Rom. It's Broick. because yes yes that's right that's right he was my standing and i want to make sure he gets his credit yes david needs it needs to be credited properly so absolutely well this point of view swings around back and forth even to bashear who tries to help this point of view we don't know

who the point of view is but bashear comes over and we see from behind kind of a punch bashear goes down so whoever's point of view is this is yeah it's very violent and and another flaw the face comes up just for a nanosecond after Bashir's been knocked to the ground. I go, oh, no, that's not Sid. Really? I understand that stunt people have to do that. That's their job. And the actors, for the most part, want that to happen.

But I thought, why did they allow his face to show? Because it's not Sid. It's not sit. I didn't catch it, but I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. I'm going to say, we all agree that Armand's character has been. physically accosted more than any other D-space-line character. But slowly coming up in second, it's a distant second, is Bashir.

Bashir, literally, I mean, being knocked down here, you do remember the episode in the crossover where he is slapped, the bejesus has slapped out of him by mirror universe Odo. Amazing. So it's happening. He's catching up to Quark now in terms of physical. A lot of physical violence in DSM. Clearly, clearly. In the last episode of D.B.

Space 9, the last episode of season 7, someone gets their nose broken. In real life? Mm-hmm. Oh, my goodness. Please do not spoil it for us. Oh, don't spoil it. Just let us know when it comes. Oh, my gosh.

Well, so finally, this violent point of view we see from behind running towards Odo who's come out, and as he dives to tackle Odo, he goes right through the goo-y-goo and falls to the ground. And that's where we realize this young man is a gem Hidar, yeah. Yeah. Dax says it. But he also realizes that when he tackles Odo, that that is a founder as well. I mean, I think that's when he was like, whoa, wait a minute. This is the people that we're sworn to protect.

Yeah, exactly. So that stops his violence, his aggressive behavior at that point. Yeah. And he's been programmed with all of this information, I guess. It's all in there. Well, we go to the lovely wardroom next. it's a briefing room type environment i love this set i'm so glad they added this isn't this right the second episode we've seen the word second or third it's it's new this season yeah we'll spend

a lot of time in that set did you like that set i was rarely there unless i was serving champagne i was rarely there yeah it's not off limits to cork but cork definitely did not frequent there so okay yeah all right well we're in the ward room cisco informs everybody that the starfleet wants this kid to be turned back over to them to be studied it kind of splits into two teams Kira and Dax think he's dangerous, and the sooner they get rid of him, the better. They're kind of on that side. Yeah, give him over to start for the. Odo wants him to stay here, though.

So does Bashir. Bashir, those two think that he should stay, particularly Odo. Odo's very passionate about this, very personal. Cisco can see that. So he asked everybody to leave, and then he and Cisco talk about it. And Odo feels responsible for what the founders did to this boy's people. and he wants to make things right, try to make a difference here. But he also has gone through it himself.

He's been a specimen. He knows what it's like to be a specimen, and he wants to save the boy from that experience. Right, because he was in the Bajoran laboratory, correct, being studied. That's right. Cisco listens to him and really hears him and kind of reluctantly agrees, but says, be careful. Yeah.

And I'll just tell Starfleet, we need to run a few more tests here before before we send him off to them. But Odo's very passionate. He's like, give me a chance to find out if he really is just a programming, program killing machine or if we can help him become something else. So Odo really, in a way, has those fatherly sort of, you know, the way that Cisco did earlier in this episode with the baby and these instincts come out of Odo to try to help him, you know,

to be a father to this kid. And one of the nice things for me is that Odo traditionally is in favor of keeping the peace, of justice, of making sure that everything is just so on this station, thinking that he can govern this force of nature, which is a Jim Hedar, is antithetical really to what Odo in my mind has been. And that's lovely for me because it shows that the writers are capable of showing characters can be one thing at one moment and one thing in another. And it all fits into the whole seamlessly. Yeah, it is very different. A different perspective from Odo than we've seen in the past. Right. Especially after Kira has said, you know, this is dangerous.

This is dangerous. Not the people on the station. That should be Odo's concern. That should hit home. It doesn't, but that should hit home. Yeah. All right. Next up, we are, we see a holding cell where the force field is on and our adolescent Jemadar is constantly throwing himself against the force field. He's clearly agitated.

Bashir is trying to calm him down saying that he needs basically a chemical compound to keep him calm and he's, you know, not listening to Bashir at all. He's still coming in. But it is Odo who enters and the second Odo enters, the second the young Jim Hedar sees Odo, he's calmer than... He stops throwing himself against the force field. And Odo even says like, okay, you know, I'm going to go... He just turns off the force field. He's like, and he says, come on, let's sit down over here. And talks to the Jim Hedar, tells him to listen to Bashir because the Jemadar is basically saying that he feels sick when he eats.

He has headaches. He has chest pain, everything. And Bashir says he's going through withdrawal symptoms. He needs a very specific isogenic enzyme, which we will later learn is called Ketrosol White, I think. Is that right? Maybe. It sounds right, yeah. Yeah.

So it's not named here, but it's definitely something that he needs. He's addicted to it. Odo asks if Bashir can replicate the enzyme. Bashir says he's had a little success with it, but it's just a temporary stopgap measure. for what he really needs. And the exact chemical formula, he doesn't have it. But he needs to put this young Jemadar through more tests. But he's been very difficult to sit still.

But Odo's the one that says, listen, the doctor is going to help you. Please let him. And that's when our young Jemadar sort of relinquishes the control that he's trying to have and says, fine. This exchange with when Bashir says, I need to run more tests, the boy says, I don't want any more tests. Then Odo says, Dr. Bershear's trying to help you. You should let him. And the boy says, you may run your test.

It's immediately, he turns. Because he knows. It's already genetically imprinted in his genetics to listen to the founder. That's it. The founder says he agrees immediately. It also is going to, it's going to that moment where Odo has a win so quickly. All he says is, you should let the doctor do it. And the boy changes his.

mind. I think Odo's going to be fooled by this, that he can just continue to you know, guide the boy and the boy is just going to do whatever he says. That doesn't turn out to be true. But Odo, actually, he says, what do you want? Because his whole goal is just try to get into the nitty-gritty of the true desires, the true wants of this young Jim Hedar. Yeah. What are your needs? What are your desires? And all he says is, I want to fight. That's it. Because that is what's coursing through his veins. And Odo is trying his best to try to get him away from this aggressive behavior of the Jemadar. And it's just, it's, you know, I mean, I think there's some, the Jemadar is questioning himself because he's young.

He's still trying to figure out who he is, I suppose, but he's not buying it so much, I feel. And if I go one step further for what you just said, Garrett, he does ask him, what is it you want? He says, I want to fight. And then he says, is that wrong? And of course, we would all say, yes, that's wrong. But for his culture, it's not wrong. It's not wrong. Correct.

It's not wrong. And having played a Ferengi for as long as I did, I came to realize we really need to step outside of ourselves and look at other cultures and not necessarily judge them immediately. And I think that's what this episode is about, not judging people immediately. Right. But think for a second, okay, if that's their culture, how do I deal with that? one and two, how do I really feel about that? But there's immediate reactions. It's just like the people we saw in the POV shot. Immediate reactions, instinctual reactions. And I found that interesting

when he said, is that wrong? It's also interesting when he says, is that wrong? Odo does not answer that. He doesn't say, no, it isn't. Yes, your instincts are correct. He just says, let's find other interests for you to pursue. It's about choices. I think Oda's really trying to give him choices. Let's choose a different choice instead of wanting to fight. There's got to be something else that you're going to find interesting to start, you know, a hobby, anything, just to get you away from this aggression. And he even says, let's try not to be so tense. Take it easy. Smile.

What did you think of the smile bit? It was very funny. Well, because I'm getting ready to do 12th night in Mount Volio has the same bit, it's a joke 400 years old. It's been repeated, hasn't it? Yeah, yes, yes. René's smile and the boy's awkward smile. Oh, I laugh my butt off. No.

Well, because the boy played it. Bumper played it very interestingly because he does the smile. And then when he releases it, it's almost like it was the hardest thing for him to do. He's like, oh, like all this like effort just like just releases out of the kid. He's like, oh, my gosh. So I thought it was a great acting choice on the part of Bumper to make it look like it was such a. difficult thing to even make a smile for five seconds or even two seconds. Yeah, I love that. I wonder if that was an actor bit or if it was scripted. I just, I'm curious.

You have the original? I do. And I want to look at how it ends. If they scripted that joke. So it says, the boy gives him a blank look and Odo continues, a smile, you know. And then Odo, it says, Odo manages to give the boy his own strained version of a smile. After a beat, the boy, the boy attempts to imitate him, and the result is even more strained and forced. The two of them smile awkwardly at each other for a moment. Then Odo breaks. We'll work on that. So yeah, it was scripted. It was a scripted bit. But his release of that tension is also scripted too, you think? Yeah. We go to Cisco's quarters next, I think. Marta and Jake are just googly-eyeing each other, just about to kiss when dad walks in. So close. Oh, boy. Sisko one.

wants to hear all about her life, though. He's very interested in hearing where she comes from, who she is. So she reveals she was an orphan on Bejor. Her parents were killed in the occupation and that she lived with some neighbors, I think. She does mention a brother and sister in here, but when she became a Dabo girl, everybody stopped talking to her. Her siblings, the people that raised her. There's a very funny look from Jake in here. When Marta says, Marta says, it's amazing how some people will judge you based on nothing more than your job. And right when she says that, camera cuts to Jake, oh, God. He looks at Dad.

He's like, see, Dad. But it was perfect. The tone and everything that Surac Lofton put into that little nonverbal moment, brilliant. And Avery's response to that look as well is equally as good. Yes. And God bless Avery for doing that. Yeah. of showing that his character is a little too uptight, maybe.

Yes. And then I think Jake goes to get some food or something. He leaves them for a moment. And that's when Cisco learns, Marta tells him, that he's an amazing poet. He's an amazing writer and how much Jake's writing really moves her. She also mentions he's an awesome Domjot hustler. That's when Jake goes to get the dessert after that's happened.

Yeah, yeah. They talk about that, and then he goes to get the dessert. And at the end of the scene, Cisco realizes there's a lot he doesn't know about his own son. Yeah, this is all news to him. All news. No clue. In fact, she says that Mrs. O'Brien suggested that he get his poems published. Pretty impressive writer.

Yeah. I was looking back at the script here, that look from Jake, when she says, it's amazing how some people will judge you based on nothing more than your job. The original script says, this scores with Cisco, who looks up at her with a little surprise. Marta has, has a little more on the ball than he anticipated.

So it doesn't say about Jake, makes me a good face. So that was Sarak Lofton doing all that. Yeah. Yeah. Good job, Sarat. Yeah, really good. Good job.

Back in the cargo bay, O'Brien is showing Odo, the container that may contain this enzyme they're looking for. It looks like a Simon. Remember that game, Simon? Yes, it does. It looks like a Simon game. Yes.

Yeah. But he shows them this little container. Odo thinks that they may have kept the Gem Hadar addicted to this drug to keep them loyal. And he says he'll have Bashir examine it. So, yeah, it looks like they are starting to find some of the things they need to find. I like this part at the end where Odo is talking about the, the, the founders getting them addicted to drugs, gives you a great deal of control over them. And O'Brien says, wow, that's a pretty cold-blooded thing to do.

Odo says, my people don't even have blood, chief. So there's another insight into our changeling, no blood. And a difference in cultures and races. Yeah. And good dialogue, just good dialogue, good writing. Back in the infirmary, Bashir's working with this newfound thing that O'Brien found the medicine. The enzyme. He's administering a little bit of it. Seems to be working. He's feeling better. That's when Odo starts to leave. But the boy says, no, I want to stay with you.

I want to stay with you, Odo. Bashir says it's probably fine as long as he can just monitor him regularly. So Odo's got a house guest at the end of the scene. Yeah, that really didn't track for me. Because if we go back to the conference room, my feeling was the reason Bashir wanted to keep him on the station was to do tests. Yeah. And so to say, okay, he can stay with you. Monitoring is one thing, but testing is something else. And I think Bashir, for his preference, would be keep him in the infirmary so he can do tests,

which is what Starfleet wants to do as well eventually. Yeah, it seemed a little lax in terms of his agenda. Yeah, you're just going to let him go hang out. We've seen Odo's room. There's no bed. Right. Where's it going to sleep? Yeah.

I mean, I suppose Odo can morph into a bed and he could sleep on Odo. Yeah, that's true. Or he can sleep on the sex dungeon equipment. The sex dungeon equipment. Well, we go into Odo's quarters. The boy does mention in here that he thinks Odo is very superior to him. He's a founder, so Changeling. And Odo takes this opportunity to say, we're all equal.

We're just different. I'm no better or worse. than you. Odo admits he's not perfect. He encourages the boy to decide what he wants for himself. And this is where our young Jem Hidar says he wants to know where he came from, his people. Odo can relate to that. That's what he's been wanting for two and a half years now. And then Odo shows him a video log of the Jem Hedar fighting on the Defiant. His people are brutal warriors. And Oda says, you don't have to be like that. I get you want to know who your people are, but you don't have to be like that.

them. And that you can channel your aggressions in other ways. And so that's when he asked how. And next up, we end up in the Hall of suite. Of course, Odo is all ready to show this young Jemadar that the Hollisweet is a great place to go to channel your aggressions. So now he runs Odo, computer program, Odo I, and a alien appears. Looks like Tom Morga. Looks like Tom Morga to me. Let's just say Tom Morga appears. And of course, You know, Odo explains that this is not a real person. He can't be injured or killed. It's just a computer simulation.

Then the Gemadar asks how strong he is. Odo says, well, you can tweak this. You can make him as strong as you want. You can make him as fast as you want. Whatever you need, you can do this. But this is a great way for you to channel all of your aggressions and your violence by coming into this holosuite. So weapons appear.

And that weapon that he's using was designed by Dan Curry. and it's sort of like a cleaver It's almost like a, you know, it was definitely an interesting shaped knife or cleaver that he's holding And he starts fighting the The holographic character He wants his opponent to be stronger

He keeps beating him easily Relatively easily and he wants it harder, harder, harder He keeps upping the ante Right, he ups the ante Auto upsets it to level two And then the boy wants it more difficult He puts it to three Kira comes in and wants a word

with Odo, so they leave the Jemadar in the hollow suite where we see him, say, increased to level five. So he's having the time of his life at this point. Armin, was that a hollow suite of standing set? Did you have one? So they'd build that if there was a hollow storyline. Oh, interesting. I don't know where, I shouldn't know.

I don't know where they put it on the set, but yes, it might have been on a different sound stage altogether. Was it on the one far away, possibly? the far away. Yeah, it could have been, what is it, eight, planet hell was what, eight, fourteen, something like that. Yeah, 14, I think.

Because in the story, the hollow suites are upstairs. Correct. That's right, that's right. But you wouldn't have built this set up on the second level. You would have built this, and you could have built it, like you say, even on another stage.

Yeah. I'm quite sure it was on another stage. Yeah, because there wasn't room. Sometimes we do have a room. If you remember the first episode where there was a pejorian, temple that that that room often was a utility room and we would do very soon i don't think this set that we're looking at in this scene was there was there just seems and that was right off the promenade

right the pejoran temple yeah so it was big enough you could redress it for whatever you needed to be okay yeah interesting all right well we go we go in a quirks cafe where kira has asked uhdo to step outside kira thinks this is crazy it's dangerous yeah otto thinks that he can show him he's got choices And Kira reluctantly agrees, but says, be careful. He's still GemHadar. Odo keeps getting the same advice. Cisco said it. Be careful.

Odo is the more conservative character. And here he is really acting with a lot of liberal ideas. The other people have instinctual fear. Here's the wrong word. Instinctual reactions about the gym. How to deal with the Jim Hedar. And Odo is trying to prove those instinctual reactions to be wrong. yeah unfortunately it doesn't work well we go back inside the hollow suite and our young jemadar still

fighting full on fighting otto says computer and program and now we cut to them walking on the upper level otto walks with the boy people are still very afraid the boy sees it he sees how they're reacting he said that uh everybody's afraid of me they think i'm different and he says i could kill any of these people. That's his response. All right. I'll just kill you. It just sounds like a teenager to me.

That's what he's saying. Teenager. Yeah. Yeah. But Odo's like there's so much, so many more choices you have than to kill them. Yeah. In the scene between René and Odo,

Odo has a wonderful speech about you were a terrorist, Kira. Oh, right, right, right. That we can, we make choices. We can change our path of existence. And that's what he believes in. And it doesn't convince her or most of the others that that's possible. Yeah.

Yeah. So he just wants to give him a chance is what it is. And Keir agrees reluctantly. Reluctantly. She says, okay, okay, give him a chance. Just don't forget, he is a Jim Hedar. Yes. If you take a snake into your house, don't be surprised if you get bit.

Exactly. Yeah. I like how Odo asks the boy in the scene where they're walking. he's like is that all you can think about killing isn't there anything else I don't think boys like I don't think so just killing just killing yeah and then Odo gets a call from Cisco Cisco says I need to see you right away constable he takes off and this deputy is left you know there's a background actor left with this Gemadar which seemed a little sloppy

to me yeah I think you need a couple more people to help out Especially since he just admitted to Odo, the security officer, all I think about is killing. It's killing. Right, right. Okay, I'll just leave with the silent guy behind me. I'll just leave it with him. You saw how the background actor, he, this is head thing where he looks at, he's clearly looking at the Jim Hidar boy. And he's like, like that like, let's go, kind of a thing.

And it's like, yeah, really? Like, you're going to do anything to this kid? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm only grateful that they didn't take them to quarks. That's all. I'm only grateful for them.

Well, Odo shows up in the commander's office. Cisco tells Odo that Starfleet's coming for the boy in about five hours. Odo's not happy about this. No, because the original plan was to send him to take him to Star Base 201. And now they're sending the USS Constellation to come pick him up from DS9. Right now, I'm going to be here five hours, yep. One gets the feeling that Cisco was in a pile of doo-doo for having disobeyed Starfleet orders. Oh, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. But just as this information comes out, suddenly the Jem-Hadar boy, our young boy, unshrouds in his Jem-Hadar way, unshrouds, he's got a weapon in his hand. Unclokes. Unclokes. Un-clokes? I think they call it shrouding and unshrouding for Jem-Hadar then?

Yeah, we remember from the first time we've met the Jem-Hadar that they had that capability. Yeah, they also shivered in. So he's learned how to do that. No one has taught him that. He's learned how to do it on his own. Wait a minute. So it's not a technical device then. It's not something they're hitting.

It's already in their genetics that they can become like a chameleon and just match the background is clearly. That's what the script is seeming to say. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah, he just kind of shimmers in there. He's got a weapon in his hand.

So my assumption is that background actor, the security guy, he's out. Gone. He's gone over to Voyager now. Yes. But the boy says, you're not sending me anywhere. I want a run about. Yeah. And he says Odo's coming with him.

And Odo does agree in the scene with Cisco there. He says to the boy, Cisco will make sure that nobody tries to stop us because he doesn't want anybody else kill. Odo doesn't want more innocent people, just the one security guy that he sacrificed. One of his own people can die. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's funny because when he says Cisco will see to it that no one interferes with us, he answers, if they do, I'll kill them. So it's more killing. There you go. Yeah, it's all he thinks about. Well, they're in the corridor.

I love the shot that tilted down off the ceiling as Odo and the boy are walking. I just thought that was nice. In fact, I noticed a lot of Avery's shot making in this episode, very different than his first episode. And he was finding a lot of opening transition things, like tilting off the ceiling or coming out of some foreground or... But different in a good way, though, Robbie, right? In a good way. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought, and the staging seemed more natural in this episode. The shopmaking seemed more elegant. Clearly, Avery is much more comfortable in directing episode two than he wasn't directing the first one. I think so. I think he naturally just had more experience.

Talking about Avery's matriculation as a director. Yeah. I saw Jonathan West the other day. And I asked him, I said, when did you come on our show? Because I don't remember. And he said season three. Right. So it's possible that some of this is Jonathan West.

I was going to say that. I was going to bring that up, Robbie, because the first episode Avery directed would have been with Marvin as his DP. And now Jonathan comes in with his difference take on things. My memory of Marvin, too, if you laid out a shot for Marvin, he would do exactly what you said. And that can be a great thing. But he wouldn't often offer improvements.

Or, yeah, sometimes he would. And sometimes he'd offer a whole different. You know, I'd pitch a shot and he'd be, well, what if we did it the other way? And sometimes that was a great idea what he had, better than my idea. But Jonathan, I've worked with some DPs who will take your idea, your shot, and they'll say, hey, what if we just add a little of this or a little of that? So they don't change it fundamentally. They just give it a little, a little bit of extra. And that maybe is what I'm feeling with Jonathan.

That he enhanced it. A little bit without changing Avery's, you know, fundamental concept that he would just add a little opening or a little something. Okay. Yeah, definitely felt different. And I didn't even think about that, but the DP changed probably had a lot to do with it. The boy says they're in the corner walking. Boy tells Odo, we're going to go to the gamma quadrant. And Odo offers to take him away from Starfleet and the gamma quadrant.

He said, you know, we can we can be wherever. you want to be. You can do whatever you want, but the boy says, I want to be a Jam Hadar. That's who I want to be. I want to be with my fellow Gem Hadar. That's what he wants. Yeah. He wants to be. I love how he says to him. He says, I'm a Gem Hadar and that's what I want to be. You're not like these humanoids either, but they've done something to you. They filled your mind with ideas with these beliefs. I don't know what the other changelings are like, but I know they're not like you. So now he's making this delineation of like, okay, you're like a faulty founder. You're a founder that needs reprogramming clearly. You're not even seeing straight. Because to his genetic programming,

he already understands what the founder's role in the whole scheme of things. And Odo does not act like a founder. Right. And again, I would point to that as adolescent behavior. Yes. All of a sudden, authority is not perfect authority anymore. Now you're beginning to have a problem with the father figure. And he's not growing any older. He's done. Yes. Yes. He's suddenly stopped growing at 18 or whatever he is. We're outside the airlock where Cisco and a security team beam in. They spread out to find him. But the boy and Odo conveniently run right into Cisco in the spot that he,

that was one staging thing. I thought, I would have had Cisco head around a corner and run into them in a different shot. Yeah. It felt convenient. And if they're looking for Odo, this is what I had a problem with. He's got a community. He's got the Com badge on. They would know exactly where he is.

They would know exactly where he is. Yes. Well, they run right into Cisco. Odo asked Cisco to let him go with the boy because the boy could kill maybe innocent people. The boy could get killed himself. And Odo promises that he's going to return once the boy's safe because he believes the boy is not going to hurt a changeling. Even though the boy just previously said, you're not like changeling should be. You're a faulty changeling.

And Odo also says he's protecting the crew of the upcoming Starfleet ship, which one is it? The constellation. He's protecting the crew. And indeed, he would be doing that. Yeah, right. And Cisco agrees. Cisco leaves. And the boy says he thinks Cisco was afraid of him.

Yeah. And Odo says, no, he's trying to help you. But the boy says Cisco is my enemy. And anyone who is not a Jim Hedar is my enemy. and Odo was very insulted by this as he walks off. He's like, oh, does that include me as they're walking off? He doesn't answer that. But it's an interesting choice of staging it this way.

And I kind of want to go to the original script. It's an interesting choice because at a moment where does that include me, it could have been played very personal and very emotional. And instead, it was played in a wide shot as Odo's kind of taking it more as an insult as he walks off. More of like a throwaway line as opposed to. Yeah. So in the original script, after Sisko leaves, the boy says he was afraid of me. I saw fear in his eyes.

And Odo says, Commander Sisko was trying to do what's best for you. He was trying to help. The boy, he's not my friend. He's my enemy. I know now anyone who is not Gem Hadar is my enemy. And Odo's line is, does that include me? And then it says, the teenager just looks at him. We're not sure what he's thinking.

The boy turns and walks through the airlock to the runabout. After a beat, Odo follows. So there's definitely a scripted. moment that is very interpersonal, very much about character, and there's a moment described here that wasn't really played out in the way it was shot and staged. So if they had some nice tight close-ups and it would have been a nice ending to that? I think that was a missed opportunity. I agree with the script there.

I think that would have been nice to be in tight for Odo asking him, am I your enemy? And the boy not answering. Yeah, and nice to see the performance. Yeah, and it was such a wide shot. Armin, do you think Avery deferred to actors more than your average director? Like if the actors did something, Avery wouldn't question it. He'd defer to their choices. I can't really answer that question because in the times that he directed me and Max and Nog, Aaron, he didn't defer to it.

He told us what he wanted and he would explain it. And then we gave him what he wanted. Whether he deferred to Renee or to Nana or to Terry, that's possible. But in my experience, he didn't defer to the actors. Interesting. So I have a question. When he told you what he wanted of the Ferengi gang, was there ever a time where you felt like, well, I think Cork should be doing this instead, where you had a different opinion from what he had,

where you then express that opinion to him and then you guys had a collaborative debate. Did that ever happen? Yes, it did. But not until the sixth season. Okay. Oh, wow. In the sixth season,

when I get to that episode, I will tell you more about it. But up until that time, no. He would explain things to us. Avery is a wonderfully poetical speaker. And he would explain things to us, and I would return to Max after Avery. talked away and said what did he just say so true it's funny that you say that he didn't defer to you

guys in those scenes because i guess my assumption is i watched some of this and i saw moments where i was like oh that's a unusual choice is that avery was letting the actors be a little more loose than a typical director but it sounds like the opposite it might have my experience was uh he knew what he wanted, he told us what he wanted, and we did our best to give him what he wanted. Got it. It was a dichotomy of when we had an actor-director, at least in my experience. Yeah. If we had an actor-director, we tried, I tried, the Ferengi tried overly hard to accommodate

what they wanted in order to help them out. Yeah. But I also know from watching the other actors in the scenes that weren't Ferengi scenes, that they were just sort of, oh, yeah, yeah, we'll give it to you, Avery. sure as though he didn't have the authority than normally other directors would have so it was both of those weaving in and out of the experience interesting well we do go from that moment that we were just talking about you know uh the gem anyone who's not jemadar is my enemy does that include me even more i feel even stronger that that should have been a bigger moment because

the story sort of wraps up now we go to a space shot with a station law and the station log is supplemental. Starfleet has expressed disappointment over what it considers a missed opportunity to learn more about the Gem Hadar. However, I am happy to report that with the boy gone, life on the station has returned to normal.

So the story sort of wraps up. That's why I think even more, sorry to harp on this, but that last moment, I feel like should have been that completion, it should have felt more complete rather than, oh, they're just on the run, you know, some more. I agree with you.

Now that you brought that up, the way you brought it up, you're absolutely right. But would it be in conflict for the moment that's about to happen? Isn't this moment that's about to happen in the scene back on the station, the climactic moment, the very simple statement that Odo makes to Kira? Oh, the final, in the Repliment, that one. Yeah. Well, this last scene, so we get the station log, the last scene is kind of a combo scene.

Because it starts with Jake and Marta walking hand in hand on the lower level. Then as they are heading towards camera, tilts up to find O'Brien and Cisco watching them walk hand in hand. And I like where Cisco tells O'Brien never played Domchot with Jake. He's kind of accepting this stuff about his kid that he didn't know. I also like the way that Avery pronounces Domjad. He's like, Domjot. He does this really very stylized way of stuff.

Yeah, no one else pronounces it that way, but Cisco. Yeah. And I love the fact that Cisco has learned that his son is more than he thought he was. Yeah. You know, did you learn about Marta? And then he goes, no, but I learned a lot about Jake. And I like that moment a great deal. Yeah, yeah, that is a good moment.

That moment pans off to Odo, entering into the, I guess, the Repliment. Repliment. Yeah. Odo walks in to join Kira. He sits down, kind of in silence for a moment. And then he says, Major, about the boy, you were right. Yeah.

And that's where we end the scene. There we go. Yeah, it's a nice opening and closing to this episode, these kind of big shots that I think Avery did. In that opening scene where we pan through all of quarks on the upper level to see the lower level gambling. and now here we're doing panning from the lower level up to the upper level and then back down to the lower level. Yeah, he kind of bookended his episode with some big ambitious shots, which I thought was interesting.

My lesson of this episode is that you can't convince someone to change if they don't want to. Okay, yeah. That people are going to do what they want to do, no matter what we say in the end. You know, that's true. Try to change people, but they're going to be who they are until they want to change themselves. And the boy didn't want to change. He didn't want what Odo was offering. Armin, what is your theme moral?

Somewhat the same, just different language. What I wrote is nature versus nurture is one of the oldest questions in philosophy. I don't think it's an either or, but rather to what degree of either can one way. win over the other. And in fact, in a note to myself, I wrote much like the Elizabethan idea of humors that we were made up of four different humors and too much of one humor would override the other three. So I agree with what Robbie said. It's a question of nature and nurture. And in this episode, as much as Odo is trying to nurture the Jam Hadar, to try to teach him different ways in that speech that he says to Kira about, we all make choice.

We all changed. But in this case, nature outweighs nurture. Or you could even say genetically engineered nature. Genetically modified DNA outweighs nurture every time, doesn't it? But it is also what I've said several times today is the instinctual response to something you don't know isn't familiar to you and therefore fear. Mm-hmm. That's true. What about you, Garrett?

What's your lesson? My lesson is, I guess, more about, I think that in our society, a lot of people spend an inordinate amount of time comparing themselves to their neighbors, keeping up with the Joneses. It's always about comparison, comparison, what do I have, what I don't have. And if people would take the cue of just considering going through life and approaching everyone that you meet or come across, doesn't matter what station they are, whether or not they're a janitor, if they're a school teacher, if they're a bum walking past you, asking you for a dollar, that we're all equal. We have to come from that standpoint where we believe that I am equal to the person who is without a home, the homeless person. I am equal to the doctor that has a PhD.

we're all equal. We're all human beings. Odo says that, right? Odo says that in the thing. Like, I'm no better than you. You're no better than me. He does. So that's what I'm pulling on. Odo's speech in that one scene. Yeah. It's the sooner that we all take on that type of thinking where we're all equal, the better off I think we'll all be as a human race. As the human race. Great. The Patreon poll, in terms of lesson, theme, more of this episode, as

submitted by Katie McCarty is both nature and and nurture shape who we become. Oh, nature and nurture. That's Armin's. Bringing up Armin's, yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning into our recap and discussion of this episode, The Abandon.

Please join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode Civil Defense with Armin yet again. And we want to thank Armin for joining us for this one. Thank you, Armin. My pleasure, always. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned. for your bonus material, and of course, we'll have Armin with us as well.

So Patreon, Patience, see in a bit. Everyone else, we'll see you next time. See ya. So, you know, You know,