The Delta Flyers - The Circle

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode is, In The Circle, hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, and Armin Shimerman. The Circle: After Kira is replaced by Li Nalas as liaison officer on DS9, she is kidnapped by the mysterious and violent society known as the Circle.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeillAdditionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Heidi Mclellan, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Tom Paynter, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Nicole Anne Toma, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Gemma Laidler, Rob Traverse, Matt Norris, Stephanie Lee, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, Sam Mikelic, & Thomas IrvinOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Luz R., Dannielle Kaminski, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Jenna Appleton, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Kayla Knilans, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Daniel O’Brien, Danie Crofoot, Steven Lugo, Penny Liu, David Smith, Lisa Hill, Stacy Davis, Lena Pfitzmeier, & Timothy McMichensAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Patrick Carlin, Eve England, Ann Harding,Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Chloe E, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Carol Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, Mike Schaible, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Rob Johnson, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Kevin Hooker, Matt Edmonds, John Richardson, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Clark Ochikubo, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Tim Neumark, Will Forg, Jeremy Gaskin, Ryan Tomei-Sigurðarson, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Carmen Puente-Garza, James Lyszczek, Russell Nemhauser, Lawrence Green, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lisa Gunn, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Linda Daireaux, Mars DeVore, Jennifer Vaughn, Walkerius Logos, PJ Pick, Preston Meyer, Ryan Mahieu, Andrew Cook-Feltz, Karen Galleski, Constance, Loretta Reyes, Francesca Garibaldi, Willow Whitcomb, Jadzia Mehari, & MoThank you for your support!“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to the Delta Flyers, Journey Through the Wormhole with Dax, Quark, Tom, and Harry. Your host today are my fellow Trek actors, Armand Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong, for the complete and exciting version of this podcast. Check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron today. Hello, Armin and Robbie. Hello, Garrett. Hello, Garrett. What a sweet introduction. Thank you. What's going on in the world of Armand Shimmerman today, or this last week, anything crazy? Yeah, actually, Kitty and I just booked a cruise to Greece. You found,

you found the right one? You found the right one. We found the right one. We're having a little problems with airfares not that the the cruise only has so many flights that you can take and we don't like any of them so we're trying to find some sort of arrangement so that we can get to Greece everything else is taken care of so we're looking forward to we're going to do that in what in October for my 75th birthday thank you very much and my wife's 70th birthdays good for you guys Are you doing, is this cruise like one of those adventure you had mentioned, maybe it's kind of National Geographic style? We're not using National Geographic, although they were really quite good. But what is it?

It's here somewhere. I can't remember what the clues line is. Oh, that's right. But it's an adventure. It's an adventure, and we're going to, you know, see a lot of historic sites that I've read about for years in my studies of classical literature. that's going to be so amazing good for you guys yeah and that's October in October kitty's birthday is in October and mine is in early November so we actually will be on the ship during Kitty's birthday when is her birthday October the 22nd of October so you're both Scorpio's

and she's just barely as good I think she's on what's called the cusp yeah yeah we got some birthdays yes we do this at this time yeah we've got Tay Phoenix on May 6th, happy birthday, happy birthday day. Birthday, Te, Phoenix. We also have Heidi McClellan on May 7th, the day after Taye, so happy birthday to Heidi.

Happy birthday, Heidi. Happy birthday, Heidi. Happy birthday, Heidi, May 7th. Last but not least, we have Jennifer Vaughn. Two days later, May 9th. Happy birthday, Jennifer. Happy birthday, Jennifer. Jennifer, have a great birthday on May 9th.

Yes. And remember, you're all younger than I am. You look very, I would never have guessed. That's the first time you've said your age, or your birthday or anything like that. I would have guessed you many years younger than 75. You would have guessed wrong. Thank you. Thank you very much.

That's very kind. I appreciate that. But I am what I am, and I'm very happy to be what I am. Good for you. Your year of the ox, by the way, Chinese astrology. So very, it's a good sign. I actually did know that. Yeah.

Shall we start, gentlemen, on this episode? Yes. All right. So we are reviewing, recapping, discussing the episode of The Circle, the Circle, which is basically a part two of a three-parter, it seems. Yes. So we've already seen the Homecoming. Now we have the Circle.

And let us begin, Robbie. Let's hear your poetry synopsis, your Limerick for the Circle. Happy to do it. Love sharing my creativity in the Poet. field. Yeah. Here we go. Kira's leaving and gets her friend's admiration.

But Jarro's the victim of Cardassian manipulation. Cork's ready to scram. Odo uncovers the scam, but Cisco's not leaving the station. Very good. Good, very good. That covers everything. I think we can close now. Okay.

We're done. We are done with this episode. Hiku time. Yes, haiku time. Here we go. My haiku for the circle. Kira is kidnapped Jarro is behind circle

A coup is starting More succinct Okay abstract and Yes impressionistic Although neither one of us reach The heights of Terry Farrell's poetry Terry's poetry

I get moved by her The way she like rhymes her words And it's, she's great. And she's got a great voice, too. I haven't heard any of those. I would love to. You've got to hear some of those. I'm always impressed.

Armand, do you have an etymology? I have a pedantic, yes, segment right now. So, you know, circle. In old English, is pronounced secul. In Latin, it's circularis. Circulis, it's the short for Circulis, Circus, by the way. Oh.

In English, in Middle English, it's Sercl. There are many definitions, of course, of circle. But my favorite is, quote, a figure of magic or necromancy, for example, of the examples from 1520. Necromanses, necromancers put their trust in their circles within which they think themselves sure against all ye devils in hell which i think applies to this episode yes it does yes like just trusting that inner group that you've attached yourself to right and the devils of hell are all the the non-majorans in the episode yeah hmm interesting i like the circus connection i've never made that connection with the word circle and circus but the ring this the ring this

circus ring. Exactly. Exactly. I believe that's why the Romans called it the circus because it was round. I believe if I remember from my studies, that's why it was called the circus. Oh, yeah. Wow. I love that homology.

It's so cool. Well, this episode is written by Peter Allen Fields. Yes. And directed by my old acting teacher, Corey Allen. Yeah. You do recall Corey, I'm sure, working with him. Armin, yes. I certainly do.

Not only did I work with him on Deep Space Nine, but I worked with him as an actor on a film as well. We got, actually, we got a lot of good conversations in while we were doing the film. And I remind everybody that Corey Allen was the director of the pilot episode of Next Generation. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I think you told us the story, the connection of Patrick Stewart and why Cory Allen is responsible for the Patrick Stewart of it all.

Exactly. Something I learned while doing the film with him when I was, when I was working, when we were both actors on the project. I think I told you this before, Aramon, that Corey was also teaching Chase, Masterson, at the same time. I did not know that. I don't remember you saying that. Oh, I don't think you said that before.

Okay. Well, yeah, so we were in class at the time of this, pretty much at the time of this episode. I mean, during this season was when this class was happening. And it's probably, there was probably, honestly, it's a small class. maybe 12, 13 students. And Chase and I were both in that same acting class together. And this is before, yeah, before either of us, before she got on DS9 and before I got on Voyager. So pre-Trek is when we were in this class together.

Corey Allen has the Trek magic. He just gets everybody on Trek. He does, yeah. And Corey, although he was at that time when he was teaching us, he was dealing with Parkinson's. So he was getting the tremors, you know, that whole thing, which was. it's starting to affect him. And I know that that's something that he wasn't overjoyed about having contracted, but still such an amazing teacher.

And it's just such an amazing human being in the history of him being on Rebel Without a Cause is also really quite impressive as well and how he got that role in that movie. It's just amazing. Later on in this podcast, I will tell you something that Corey did in this episode, which is amazing. I've never encountered it ever before. Oh, goodness. And it is a truly amazing,

feat that he accomplished, but that's for later. Okay, good. Looking forward to it. Can I run through these guest stars real quick? Yes, please do. Okay. Richard Bamer again from West Side Story, Tony, as Lee Nalas. Yes. Stephen or Stephan mocked as General Crim.

Stephen, Stephen mocked. Stephen mocked as General Crim. My very first reaction to seeing Stephen mocked was that he could be related to the actor John Bernthal from Walking Dead, from the Punisher. But in actuality, he has a son who is an actor who Robbie McNeil directed, actually, of all people. Gabriel Mocked, who plays Harvey Specter in the show's suits. The television show's suits. Robbie directed, I think it was the final season of suits Robbie came in and directed, or the next to last.

Yeah. And he's the lead. So you've definitely talked to this gentleman before. This is General Crimson, basically, is the guy that you worked with. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And before you go on, I have one little footnote for Stephen. And Stephen and I have worked together many times doing theater together.

So I know for a fact, Stephen Mock was the second choice for Picard. What? Wow. You're kidding. And it is interesting to me that just occurred to me, as you were speaking, Garrett, that here's Cory Allen who directed the pilot and had a choice on who was going to play a Picard. Yeah. And so was it Corey?

I'm just fantasizing that. Was it Corey who said, we're going to get Stephen Mocked to play this part? Oh, yes. Yes. Which as I was reading the script, there was just a note in the script very subtle and didn't probably mean anything. But when I read the note and I thought, hmm, looks like this character of grim is supposed to recur. But it didn't, but it looks like. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Wow. That's crazy. as Admiral, this is what really bugged me. Bruce Gray's Admiral Chacote. And I'm thinking, guys, why would you repeat a name again? It's clearly Voyager was being written about this time. About the same time.

But the exact same time. So was it something that was in the head of maybe, I guess, of the executive producers that were still there was, was it just Berman? Who was still there at this point, Rob? Berman is the is the lynchpin, I think, between it at this point in time. Pillar is on his way out. He's gotten sick. Okay.

But Pillar was still part of Voyager in the beginning, too. So I'm wondering, did Pillar come up with the name Chikote and he just threw that? Or Jerry Taylor was around. Yeah. Or maybe they didn't even make the connection that they had already used this name and somebody in their subconscious, just threw it out in a room. Wow. It came to life again. Yeah.

I mean, it's a weird coincidence. It's so weird. And they spell it differently. They spell it C-H-E-K-O-T-E. But it's definitely Chakote, the way they pronounce it. So that blew me away. Philip Anglom as Vedic Bariol, special guest star, Louise Fletcher, as Vedic win. And I was just thinking, if she got special guest star, I feel like Franklin Jella could have

got extra special guest star just to give himself a little more. Special, special, special, special, no-credit star. Most specialist of all, no credit, Frank Langella. Co-stars, we have Mike Genovese as Zeph No, the captain of the Chrysari Freighter. Would this individual be related to Cosmo Genovese, possibly? That's not the most common last name in Italian last name. So maybe there's just maybe a coincidence. Probably not.

Cosmo was our script supervisor. And sometimes ours. And somebody wasn't around. Yeah. So he would fill in. Okay. You know, Armin, I stayed in touch with Cosmo until he passed away a few years ago. He was in the actor's home. No, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And Dennis Madeline would go visit him all the time. And we would FaceTime and send pictures and celebrate birthdays. I envy you. That's great. Cosmo was a lovely, lovely man. He was. I know I digress from the Genovese. No, no. I think it's great. Say enough good things about Cosmo.

No, I mean, he deserves this time for you to talk about him or to say something nice about him. because I don't think there was a soul on our production that did not like Cosmo Genovese. Same with Judy Brown for your script supervisor who went on to Enterprise. Judy went on to Enterprise. And Judy would sometimes come to Voyager, rarely. Right.

I think Judy went on to Enterprise. They're great people. And they have really hard jobs. They really do. They really do. We also have another co-star, Eric's Server, as the Peace Officer. and Anthony Guedera as the Cardassian in this episode.

So that rounds out our guest stars and our co-stars. Very, very big cast. A lot of, a lot of, you know, very interesting people in there, that's for sure. And locations, which is rare for our show. Yes. Locations. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All right.

So to start off the whole episode after a very brief recap, they show a quick recap of the prior episode. We then have an exterior shot of the station, and we are now in the commander. office. I have a question. In the recap, didn't they talk about, they talked about the alliance for global unity. But then they get a new name of the circle. When did they start calling them a circle? I didn't quite track. I mean, I made the connection, but I was like, when did that happen? Like, it's sort of suddenly we're talking everybody in the circle. The first time that we mentioned the circle, that we hear about the circle. Yeah. They say, they say this group is called the Alliance for Global Union.

They already described them. So they're both the Circle and the Alliance for Global Unity. Yes. Okay. We're in the commander's office. Cisco is very unhappy about Kira's dismissal because he's talking with Jaro, Minister Jaro about this. And Jarl basically says it's a promotion for Kira.

And I love this really weird thing that comes up with Cisco talking about, well, I thought it was one of those things where there's a warm wind blowing in from Minnicoi. And you're like, what? And it's about. As if this is some saying that everybody knows. Everyone knows this saying, clearly, a famous ambassador from Minicoy who was full of hot air. So it's sort of, you know, they're positioning right now. They're playing chess with each other.

They're definitely. And Jaro in the end, you know, Cisco doesn't trust Jaro in this scene. Clearly we don't trust each other. No. Jaro's just covering. He's lying. He's claiming it's a promotion, but Cisco doesn't believe him. How do you feel, Armin, about watching this?

scene i know frank langella i know avery brooks as well i imagine this was a very tense scene with those two actors off camera yes yes i would think so i would think so i would think so i think so i think there was jocking for power here yeah exactly exactly did anyone notice that's one shot where cisco crosses frame and jaro or frank has to kind of track him as he moves over He almost looked into camera. He kind of like stopped and then pushed himself forward a little bit. Frank did. Yes, I felt like the very beginning, this was the most unconfident that he was.

The man's an amateur. What can you say? He's an amateur. Yeah, what has he done? Franklin, Jella. I mean, how much Star Trek has he done? You know, I'm just saying, guys, you know how much I love. I do.

I do. I felt like he was nervous in this front scene. And clearly. I don't think he was nervous. I think he would, you think there was a little, okay, so knowing both of them, having worked with both of them. Yeah. I bet there was a lot of tension making this. Okay.

All right. Because of the content of the scene, they could use their real feelings in the scene in an effective way. And yeah, that would be my guess. I also think it was interesting that Frank chose to sort of pick up the revered baseball at the very end, almost like he was kind of saying, you know what, I can grab your little. keep sake, whatever you have. Are you looking to see if, are you looking to see if he actually did the script? Armine's got the script, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know if we've said that yet, but he found the original script, which is so

excited. No, it's not in the script. This was Frank going like, I'm going to get in your, I'm going to get in your brain a little bit. In your business. I'm going to, in your business. This is your beloved baseball. And I'm putting my paws all over.

Power move. Yeah, it was a power move all the way. He did that right before he left the room, too. Yep. So, okay. I just want to make one comment about something that Jero says in the scene. He says, one of my fellow ministers was attacked by the circle. Now, we've been led to believe that the circle is anti-anything that isn't pejoran.

So the idea that now the circle has matriculated or morphed into now they're attacking in their own. And that's a problem. Yes, it is. Yeah. So clearly, this is a rival to Jaro that was attacked. And I mean, now that we know that Well, that's what he's saying. That's what he's saying. That's what he's saying, which is, yes. We don't know. But all of a sudden, now Bjorans are being attacked as well by the circle. And that really is a step forward. This makes it a little bit easier to believe that it could be a coup,

which is what we're going to find out later. Yeah. Well, Miles comes in and says that Jake has been waiting on the calm to talk to his dad. Do you think Cisco told Jake, if you need to get a hold of me, don't call me directly on the com, call ups and whoever answers there will come over and tell me? I don't get that. Like, typically in Star Trek. Well, you could have put like, do not disturb on his, on his calm. And then it gets, it gets forwarded.

Yes, but understand, Jake does not have a comm badge. What? Oh, that's right. He's not Starfleet. No, he doesn't. Jake is not Starfleet. So he's in the room using... He had to go to a phone booth.

Has to go to a phone booth. He had to find the right change, yes. Precisely. And then call his dad. Yeah, because all the phones only take latinum. So, yes, absolutely. Sorry. Okay.

I don't know. So no one thought that was odd. No, I did not. You did, it didn't bother. He's in an important meeting. He's gone and do not disturb. Okay, fine. Jake's like calling somebody.

Hey, I got to get my dad. Where's my dad? Right. He's not picking up. Right. I mean, I have do not distrust. serve on my laptop, so I... That's right.

It's there. It's there. Well, Cisco does agree to go down there. He doesn't tell them what it is. And when he shows up at their quarters, it's their quarters. It's their door. And it has the same, the sign, the symbol is there. It's there.

Which means we're really. They're on the station. Yeah. We're there everywhere. We are, yep. Oh, my God. This is my favorite scene coming up now. go maybe in the in the history of this series this is a scene i want to talk about okay before you before

you describe it my all i can say is my first thought was this is an amazing stage play with all these these multiple entrances the blocking which is so complex everybody's moving and bouncing around moving my god okay go ahead robbie pick it up okay so kears packing yep uh odo comes in and he's trying to talk her into fighting to stay otto's really wound up about this he's very upset he's Like, here, why won't you fight this? Like, you should stay here. And then Dax comes in to return some skin lotion, which I love. I know.

Skin lotion. No one has skin motion on Voyager in seven years, but here we have skin lotion. I love it. By the way, before Dax comes in, there is a very... It's to take the dots off. It's to take the trill markings off. She applies them every day. Yeah.

I did love the moment before Dax comes in with Odo where he's really wound up. Yes. And Kira pauses for a moment. She says, you know, Odo, I'll miss you too. It was a sweet, sweet moment. That was really good. Yeah, felt like a new insight into that relationship. For sure.

But Dax comes in with a lotion. Then she asks, Kira, you know, what's your job? And they're talking about this boring desk job when Bashir walks in. And I love this exchange where Bashir's like, hey, I wanted to come say goodbye. Dax is still talking about the dash job. She's like, God, that's boring. Yes. But she was like, wait, what?

What are you talking? Yeah. So the misunderstanding. It's a very sort of farcical, misunderstanding, you know, sliding doors kind of thing. Especially that one little interchange where she sort of, everyone's peppering her with questions and she answers each of them. She goes, no, they didn't.

No, they haven't like that. It was so, it was like we were watching a stage play. It was like, oh, this is so well written. And it's constantly moving. It looks great. and then I think does Miles come in next? O'Brien does come in next to say it was a pleasure

serving with her, yes. Yeah, pleasure, but then he's like, maybe I'll come back later, so things are getting kind of chaotic. And just when you think it can't get more chaotic, Quark walks in with a bottle of Synthale, her favorite, but it's a tiny bottle.

It looked like a little bottle of like a perfume bottle. A what? A perfume bottle. It was tiny. Yeah. Well, he didn't expect everyone to be there that's why no thank you for that that's of course exactly he wants uh he wants to

have a he thought it would be an intimate farewell drink with with kira yeah because he's been in the bedroom in the last episode so that's right he's making his move yeah right before she leaves this is the time to make my move but bring some sinthale into it get her a little drunk yeah and i love i love how he says you know uh a shoulder to cry on you'd be surprised how often that works with women to, who do you say? I say it to Odo. Very funny. I laughed out.

I want to rewind your entrance when you first come in, Armand, you make the choice, or maybe it's in the script, where you kind of chum up with O'Brien, you slap your arm on his shoulder right there. It's not in the script. It's not. You threw that in there. Okay.

That was your blocking. All right. Yes, Robbie. Continue. The very end of the scene, Barile comes in, and he, everybody gets very solemn and respectful when he enters very much, much different tone with beryl in the room.

And he suggests that maybe Kira come to the monastery. Yes, because he says, quote, it can help when the spirit gets a little bruised, end quotes. Yes. All right. So that's the scene. No, now, no, that's not the scene. That is the scene on camera.

That's not the scene in rehearsal. Oh, boy. What happened? This is what Corey did, which you've already alluded to. You didn't even know you were alluding it to it, but you did. You both said it was like a stage play. Yeah. Yes.

That's the way Corey saw it too. And in fact, I think it's eight pages. I could look, but I won't take up the time. I believe it's eight pages of script. We came into work that day, and Corey turned to the crew, except for everybody but the DP. He said, you can all go home. home we're not shooting anything today what wow um we're we're just going to rehearse this like a play we're going to work out the blocking we're going to do it as a oneer um now when i look at the

episode and see it i went well it wasn't shot as a wonder but but they may have added more cameras the next day wow but first on that day he said we're all going to rehearse this as a play you can't imagine the marks all over the floor for all of us in the different colors. Yeah. And we rehearsed it for up until I would say we probably started at seven in the morning and by three we'd gotten it down. And they released us as well.

The next day, this was eight pages. Wow. And the next day we shot that sucker in about 25 minutes. All eight minutes. What? Wow. So it was extraordinary. that people got off, the crew got off.

But the time that they lost by rehearsing it as a play, they picked up on the next day. On the shooting. Because we did it all as a winner in 20 minutes. And I imagine what happened was we had the main camera, but then he set up the camera so he had footage that he could interact with. But we did those eight pages as a play.

And just so everybody knows, like when I'm directing or producing on a show, we kind of estimate using the page count as a rough estimate of how long it will take. So an eight-page scene with that many people in it, you take the number of pages, you call that an hour per page, so eight hours, and then you take the number of characters and you divide in half, and that's the other amount of hours. So an eight-page scene with six people would have been about 11 hours I would have scheduled for that scene which they did in 25 minutes so we've been saying eight but it's actually seven okay seven pages it should have been 10 hours I don't know how many people are in the scene I'd have to go back

and count but I feel like there's about six there are six six so take the pages seven seven plus So take the pages, seven pages, that's seven hours, then take the cast count, seven, that's three and a half hours. So 10 and a half hours is what I would give this scene, just off the top of math off the top of my head if I were scheduling this. And between your rehearsal and filming, that's about what you probably spend on it, though. Well, as I said, at the intro, I have never experienced that ever shooting a TV. show or you know or film for that matter but but certainly a tv show oh idea that the crew would be excused at eight o'clock in the morning and say goodbye they must have loved that they must have loved that as i heard now it's just it's just rumor i heard that burman was not happy about oh okay wow

yeah i can imagine he was not happy but but doesn't he save money she got the work done in the amount of time that it was needed yeah we we did it the next day yeah relatively quickly we got it in the first take and then they did it again just to have a safety but yeah wow wow well it felt like a it felt like a stage play and it felt tight the pace the the the dialogue was just snappy and funny it was great great here's a question robby as a director would you have shot that differently would you not have done it like a stage play would you have done something entirely opposite of that i think there's no downside in that kind of scene there's no downside to an extensive rehearsal.

There's only an upside to that because you're looking for tightening up the pace, you know, sharpening the comedy and the reactions. So that takes time to get that kind of rhythm going. But I don't know if I would have staged it exactly the same way. I thought it was well done. And by the way, generally this episode for me, Corey Allen did some shots I'd never seen before in your show. And we're well into this, you know, we're into the second season now.

So for him to find new angles, new ways of doing things, I thought that was impressive. I was impressed with it. Will you address those moments when they happened? Okay, great. I think, well, it's about to come on. One last thing, one of the things that he did so well, it's a little room. It's a little room with seven people in it.

And so the fact that he was able to cover us all, as well as he did, is really quite impressive. And indeed, when Barile comes into the scene, it says in the script the tone changes immediately. and which I think the actors and the director caught perfectly. Yeah. Yeah, it was well done. Speaking of cool Corey Allen shots, the next scene in Ops, we've got this low

angle of Kira walking in and I felt like the camera was down in the pit. I'd never seen the camera. I'd never seen that angle of Ops before quite so dramatically and theatrically. So there's an example of a Corey Allen shot.

You must have had the camera on the floor. They must have had the camera on the floor. Because if it gave it any elevation, it wouldn't have looked like that. We've never seen those round windows up top. You know how she walks in and you see everything up high like that? We've never seen that so far. Well, she walks in. She's very sad.

She's looking around. She's going to leave. Lee Nallis arrives her replacement. He's very sorry. He doesn't even know what he's going to do here. As the Navark. He doesn't know what that move. What are my?

duties yeah Cisco comes in kind of makes a joke about well I think you're supposed to report directly to the profits which at first I didn't get was a a joke I don't know how you report to the profits directly but I think he was trying to kind of make a joke here and he says you know basically you're just here to help me I didn't get that Robbie you didn't I didn't think it was a joke I think he really was supposed to report to the profits really yeah to the orb talk to the orb open up an orbit but nobody talks to the orbs well lean alice is a special guy he's but maybe that's what navark means maybe navarck means one who who communes with the prophets but it's interesting that you brought up that it was a joke from cisco because i don't think avery

played it as a joke it didn't come off that way to me so that's why i thought i was confused because i was like wait who can nobody reports to the profits their energy like yeah yeah i don't know Yeah. That's an interesting question, you know, what the writer's intentions were and did they achieve that in the direction performance? I'm not sure. It was a little confusing to me. Like, does it say in the script he jokingly says that? No, it doesn't. No, it does it. All right. Well, there you go. Siscoe does promise that he will get Kira back because she requests permission to disembark. It's a little sad. He walks her to the turbo lift and he watches her go. the turbolift descends, which is an image that we see over and over again. If there's an early theme for me, it's the, it's the turbo lift. It's happening. Is this the shot where the camera, her point of view where it goes into the black?

Yeah. And then, and then doesn't it go into, there's one shot in the episode. That's later. Yeah. That's later. What's interesting for me is that turbo lift, which did work, it was, it certainly took you to a different floor. Yeah.

But it always jerked, at least in my experience. with it. So the fact that they got it not to jerk in this take. You mean it continuously jerked as it moved? Or just jerking the beginning of it? It was always this as you were standing at it. Oh, you're kidding me. That's not very Star Trek-y. No, it has to be

smooth. It's amazing that they never don't show that. This is make-believe. Did you have, on your set, did you have doors that would bounce and they'd have to do it over again if the doors? No, we never had doors to bounce, but we all learned, I'm sure you did as well, never to speak while you were going through a door.

because because the sound of the door meant you had to do ADR. The additional dialogue replacement, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, we had a lot of bouncing doors. If the, you know, the ship door, as it shut, did a bump like that. They'd have to do it again because it's not supposed to boom. It's not supposed to bounce at all. Are we done with this scene?

Our doors were professional, yeah. Your door people were professional. Next up we have a Dan Curry special, a matte painting on the surface of Bayjor. or basically the monastery grounds kind of is what it is, I think, yeah? Okay. I think we've seen it before. I think we've felt like a reuse of something, yeah. For sure.

Gardens at the monastery. Kira is busy at work, setting stones, but unfortunately it's crooked. Vedic Borail was there looking on. And Kira, she says essentially that it's just not working out for her. And my question to Armin is, do Vedic's lead? They do not lead a life of celibacy, I guess. Is that no? Okay.

So they can be married and everything then if they want. Okay. Because there's definitely a moment shared between Beddick Beryl and Kira. There's more than a moment. No. I'm saying in this scene, I literally watch the scene and then I make my notes. My first note is this scene was creepy as f***. It's like, what is going on here?

Who is this? Well, what is, what are they talking about? There was so much subtext and, yeah, I don't know. Okay. I found it a little. There is a little bit of that in this, in the end of the other scene, the previous scene. When he comes in, there's a sense of that. A little bit of that, yeah.

But, but you're absolutely right. It's, it's very heavy in this scene. And it's just using to me. I was like, is this about an evil plan? Is this about seduction? is this about is he like becoming a god i didn't know what was happening it was but he's a holy man he's a spiritual person correct this is a spiritual position he had never behaved this weirdly to me before i i actually found him to be calm and and very comforting before i would imagine what the

writers had in mind and i don't know it's a guess is that we've taken care of off the station now we're trying to give a reason why she wouldn't come back to the stage oh okay so it's not just his acting towards her it's her acting towards him as well and that somehow maybe if a life of a romance of having a family of getting married it might be a reason for her to stay on bejure and not go back to the station i think that's what they were aiming at or maybe they were just trying to set up a romance between the two of them um and for future episodes. I didn't think about that

a reason to stay. That's a great point. It didn't play that way to me because I was so weirded out by this thing, to be honest. It was weird. He was creepy. But at the same time,

it's so, it's hard to get a fix on what this actor was playing because first of all, before, like Robbie said, he seemed like someone that you took solison. Like if he was there,

you felt comfortable and relaxed, okay? Safe. But all of a sudden, this episode, there's just some weird undertones that this actor is putting on and the looks and the stairs. And now, and Robbie's heard me talk about my initial talent agent when I book Voyager being the Stephen Wright of agents, the stand-up comic who had that deadpan dry delivery. This is the Stephen Wright of Bajorans.

He's so dead, so dry in his lines. It seems like a different. kind of character to me in this episode than the previous episode. Yes. He was dry and creepy. He's the bad guy.

Yes. He's all bullshit. He's been lying to me. Or maybe he's the circle. Maybe he's part of the circle. Exactly. That's what I thought. Yeah.

What did you think, Garmin? I felt that as well. I'm a big fan of Philip Anglams. As you all must know, this is the man that created the elephant man on Broadway. Yes.

No, he's an incredibly talented actor. Yeah. And I just thought it was, he played it as an extension of the non-emotional performance that he'd given in other episodes. Okay. He continued that way. Also, we haven't touched upon it yet, but in a moment, we're going to find out that he's had some visions as well. And so maybe he's acting upon that. But I think, not just the actor, but I think perhaps the director should have.

realized no modulated that a little bit yeah eased us into this transition for this character because i didn't know where it was going so it was so heavy for me that i went to oh he's been lying he's a bad guy but that's where i went arman brings up a really valid point because he does talk we do learn later that vetic beryl has already you know consulted the orbs and had a vision of his own which had kira in it which in my guess the same thing happened where they were lovers you know what I'm saying so now oh yeah as the actor he's already read the script he knows what's going to happen in the future so he's thinking oh well I'm already going to play like we are a couple in a way you know I'm going to be very like hey this is

my lady you know kind of attitude where yeah that comes off is we're not ready for that yet as an audience yeah the audience wasn't ready what's going on like why is this guy being so weird and creepy right now, and we love this guy in the prior episode, but all of a sudden something has shifted, but we don't know that that's shifted. I didn't know what was going on in this scene, honestly. Here's my notes. I said, Keir's working on the stone path. She can't get it straight. Barile arrives. She says she's useless here. He says, maybe try useless for a while. Then things get really weird. He says it's time. And then he says it's time, isn't it? Yeah. What does that mean? It's the writing. I agree with you. And in this script.

Right. The stage direction is she's baffled by that as well. The script says she's baffled by that. So there's a lot of baffled acting in the scene, which baffled me. Yes. She doesn't, she thinks that, you know, what the script is indicating is that maybe he's talking about going off to his room. And it's time. And that's exactly what scripted. That's exactly what the writers wanted that to be. I think it's, I think it's the writing is very confusing here. I think they were intentionally trying to add complexity and subtext in a way that, for me, was more confusing than anything else.

I think I've made my point. I'm going to let it go now. Yeah. But you're right. As a director, Corey could have modulated that a little bit for sure. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Okay.

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Up front payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details beryl takes her inside this this orb shrine she sees the orb case she says she's always dreamed about this moment he opens the case says that this is the third orb of prophecy and change and she stares at it the light glows on her face she asks what what do i do and as he's leaving off camera we hear him say just be useless and then there's a flash.

I was still a little confused by this concept of be useless. I guess it's like be open, right? Just be let go. Let go. Yeah. Don't have any prior preconceived notions about it. Don't be a type A personality. Be present.

But also he does say allow the prophets to guide you before he says be useless. So there's a little bit of a, you know, explanation there. And that's standard Vedic language. let the prophets guide you. That's a prayer that they repeat at infinitum. Yeah. Well, she ends up flashing into this chamber of ministers. She's there.

They're all trying to interact with her. She can't hear them very well, what they're specifically what they're saying, but they're all gesticulating. It seemed like they were cheering for her, but then maybe they're yelling at her. It was hard to know if they were happy or angry with her. It looked like Wall Street is what it looked like.

So go ahead. They want to get her attention. That's what the script says. Okay. They want to get her attention. Yes. And they want to say something to her and they want to get her response. But of course, all of that is not being heard.

That's scripted too, that she can't understand what they're saying. Right. But they do give examples of what they're saying. Oh, really? Cool. Can you read that? I'm curious. Sure.

I'm curious. I love that you found this script. I know. This is awesome. Oh, my God. This is a game changer in terms of, like, how we understand the episode. Oh, my God. We can now refer to, this is like the Oxford English Dictionary when he's looking at the etymology when Arm is doing that.

Now we have the script. So what it says on page 22A of the yellow version of the script, it says legislators, incomprehensible, that's in parenthetical, major, some answers. these is all ellipsis major ellipsis some answers ellipsis i demand an explanation major major over here give us the details major may i ask a question over here may i have the floor please so they're trying to get her attention and they want to say things and they also have some questions to ask wow okay i have a question for you arman this is kind of a union question in a way Okay. So you have a group of background like that. And if they were to have lines, they would be paid differently.

They wouldn't be background. But as a group, they can say all the things you just read that were scripted. I would venture to say that that group of people may or may not have said it, but the loop group did. Yes. Yeah, it was a loop group. And they are not background people. they are they are performers that get residual so as a union now we're getting into the weeds i don't know if the people who were in the scene actually had those lines they probably didn't

because they would have gotten into a real mess if they had union-wise i think probably the loop group said the lines okay yeah okay well we do see we do see dax is in this vision and she's dressed in what looks like Vedic Wynn's clothing because she does have the signature Sydney Opera House hat on and Dax tells Kira to listen to them Kira says she can't hear them and Dax says it's all right and then hugs her

and as Dax pulls back it's no longer Dax but it is Vedic Winn who is standing in front of her who asks then can you hear them now child or whatever she says Minister Jaro is on the other side of Kira behind her and he says that he can hear them and that they are calling to him and now we know there's something going on here there's some type of politics happening here uh vedic beryl then appears and he's not

wearing vetic clothing but it looks like military clothing and he tells her outfit yeah it's kind of a military that's exactly what it says in the script her outfit oh it's wearing kira's major kira's that's what i thought yeah vedic brao appears in kira's uniform and tells kira not to listen to jaro but to allow herself to hear them, to trust herself. She can hear them. They're calling to her. Vedic Wynne then says blasphemy. The minute Vedic Wynne says blasphemy,

Kira's clothes magically disappear. There's no more clothing left. She asks for help from Beryl, who suddenly loses all of his clothing as well, appears behind her. She leans back into him. She turns around to face him, and they're just about to kiss

when the orb flashes them right back to reality. yeah this vision by the way I will say looking at it as a director and producer yeah it took a long time to shoot this oh my god because of all the magical changes you couldn't just set up a close-up of Kira and shoot the whole scene right you had to shoot five different close-ups of her because she was all over the place

clothed unclothed people changing clothes people this was a whole day Robbie am I right but this have taken the entire day practically they might have walked away while someone changed, done something else, and come back. Yeah. You know, this would have been a hard one to get. Not an efficient scene to film.

No. And interesting enough for me, as I was reading this yesterday, yes, they got their clothes off. But the way it's described in the script, we should have seen more skin, actually. Oh, my goodness. Do you mind reading how it's described? Okay.

For those of you have kids out there, you know, turn this off. Oh, boy. I love this. Scene 35. Kira, medium close-up, optical. From behind her, a man's arm embraces her arms, which cover her breasts. Moving to discover it is beryl again, behind her now, visibly naked from the waist up, pulling her back to him, and as she feels the skin against skin, she gasps and looks up at his face as it moves down to her lips.

So from that, I get the sense that they wanted to see a little bit more skin. More skin time. But Corey chose to use a tighter shot there and not show the lower parts of the body. Or did shoot it and the powers of B said no. No way. Yeah. Or the actor may have said no. No way.

Yeah. Right? You mean you're saying Nana. Nana or Philip? Or Philip? Or Philip? Maybe Philip didn't want to show his midsection. That's possible.

I don't want to do that. Yeah. Okay. kind of like when I had that little the lure tank top and I said no I'm not wearing that yes I was put in a costume once this was a lady's top

Armand it was not meant for a man no I was put in something that didn't fit it was it was not it just didn't in so many ways it was wrong and I walked on to set and the entire crew started laughing at me and I said I'm not wearing this I'm not doing the scene in this outfit I've never seen No.

Rob is usually... You have to do that sometimes. You have to do that sometime. Pick your battles, but yes. This is one of the very few times in seven years that Robbie was unhinged. Like, literally, like, he's usually so calm. And that time he was like, no. I think you took it off, on set and just threw it on the ground.

You were like, I'm not wearing this. Maybe. Okay. Robbie. Well, I think I tried. Sorry to digress on this, but I think I tried and I put it on. And I'm like, this can't do. You called me into your trailer.

When the crew laughed, I was like, no, I'm not doing it. Robbie, I think Robbie, he says, come to my trailer. I go into his trailer. He's like, this is my wardrobe. I'm like, what? That's not, this must be Bilanas. This is not your clothing. There's no way.

He's like, he puts it on and he's like, no, this is not, I can't, I can't wear this. I said, but this is what they gave you, right? He's like, yeah, all right. So he walks in on set, all the crew start, Billy Pete's was laughing. Everyone was laughing the second he walked on because it was made of velvet. It was velvet with thin straps and it was supposed to be a beach scene. And I was like, this is not what Rob, what Tom Paris or any man would choose to wear. I mean, this is, it was not.

It's not what Tom Paris would choose to wear. No, no. Anyway, we digress. Yeah, but Bob Blackman had a problem with swimsuits. He's a great, wonderful Emmy winning designer. But I came to swimsuits, it was really bizarre. That wasn't his cup of tea. That's okay. Fine. Exterior space shot of the station. And now we're in the security office. We see Odo's view screen. He's having a conversation with obviously someone that he's friends with, a Bajoran law enforcement officer that tells Odo that there were several beatings the night before. But when they go looking for the perpetrators, they are nowhere to be found. Odo thinks that there's somebody that has been tipping or at least giving the circle rebels.

on where the law enforcement officers are going to be. And so that's why they keep disappearing. The provisional government is now bringing troops into the capital to put an end to the circle. And that's when our beloved Armand shows up and tells Odo that it's all over. He's beside himself. It's all over. All of it.

We have to leave. We've got to get out of here. And he also admits in the scene that he knows the circle has lots of weapons. Oh, yeah. The Crissari are smuggling them in Cardass. I don't know if we know they're Cardassian left. No, you don't. No, we don't.

No, we don't. No, certainly don't know that. No. Well, Crisari are smuggling them in. Right. But I think doesn't Odo say something with the Crissari are like botanists or something? He says, he says, this is very odd because the Crissari are known to be traitors of botanic DNA. So we're talking about plant stuff, you know, not any.

They're vegetarian pacifists. They're not. They're not. They're not into the... They're flower children. They are. They are. They are.

But Odo asks the computer, when the next Pursari vessel is docking. It's 36 hours away. And Quark still wants to leave. He's out of here. Yeah. And Odo, I love this when Oda says, Quark, I hate to do this. I hate that I have to do this. But I'm going to make you a deputy.

Is that whole writing of how Cork's like, no, no, you can't. Just fighting against it. then he's completely shocked. I know what's coming. I know what's coming. Yeah, you know what's not. And it's usually not good, right? Whenever Odo's never good. It's never good.

Never good. Never good. It's ever good. But then when you realize he's depotizing you, you give off that, that laugh that just, you know, warms my heart. Oh, my God. Scripted. I was amazed to see that yesterday. I went, oh, my God, that was scripted. Yeah.

Oh, wow. I'm surprised, too. I would have thought that was my choice. No, no. So it says huge. laugh. And then at the very end, goodbye, like that. And you're leaving, right? Okay. And that's when he says, you have two options. You can either be a prisoner or deputy, pick one. So he blackmails you. This is the blackmail scene is what this is. Yeah. Isn't the first time. I love the way you say,

I'm a deputy at the end of the scene. Yeah, yeah. I'm a deputy. Like you were trying it on for size is what it was. It was awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's lovely. All right. And also, for years, Renee and I would always say, we didn't have that many scenes together, but I'm kidding, thanks to you guys, thanks to Delta Flyers, I'm beginning to say, no, we were wrong. We had more scenes than I ever remember, and more than perhaps Renee ever remember. But we had much more than I thought we did, and this being one of them. That's a great scene.

It's a great scene. In fact, this will lead me to one of my bonus comments later on, but this scene was one of my favorites in the episode. It was great. Good. So basically, Odo charges you with finding out the destination of the weapons. And his job is to find out how they got smuggled. I mean, how they began the beginnings of the smuggling, basically. So where do they come from? And he wants to know from you, where are they going to? That's the end of the scene. Great scene. Yeah. Great scene. We go to Ops next. Cisco's going to Bejor to talk to the ministers there. He thinks there may be a coup happening. He tells Lee Nalas to check with his military contacts, see if the government, has, you know, enough support. And he also tells Lee at the end of the scene that he's assigned him a bodyguard

that, you know, the terrorists are putting graffiti on his own door on the commander's door. So things are bad. I did see a camera shadow in the scene. I'll bring up. You know, sometimes when actors walk too close to the lens, the lights behind the camera will shadow,

you know, the camera will, shadow the light yeah and as Lee Nalas followed Cisco up there there was a big camera shadow as he walked by pretty close which is rare usually if they catch that they'll they'll do it again and fix it but seem like they didn't have a choice in that one right and this is another scene where it ends

with the turbo lift descending right doesn't he leaves this where the camera the shot goes no that's not yet the one we talked to the four no no that's coming up that's when That's when Armin's in the scene. Remember Armin's on ops? And he goes, we can talk about my compensation later because he gives him the final bit. That's when it goes to the blackness.

And it's from the perspective of who's it. That's what I'm saying. This is the theme of for me, the overall, the glue that holds this episode together are these turbo lift shots. It's like bam, ba dam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. The turbo left episode for me. Okay. We go to the monastery garden next. Bryle's approaching Kira there.

And he asked her about her orb experience. He says, you know, you were in my vision. I had an orm experience. You were in my, my vision. Was I in yours? He's fishing here. Yes, he is. And she lies.

She says, no. Which I thought was interesting. That's why, like, Armand, your theory makes total sense of setting up some romance that might be a reason for her to stay. Yeah. But the fact that she says, no, to me, feels like she's not interested in going there with him. Yeah. Well, she may be interested.

But she really feels that her purpose in life is to be useful, is to do things, is to help. And this is, although it would be comfortable, although it would be something that would be nourishing, it's not her role in life. That's what I got from watching that. Corey had often left people out of focus for an extended period of time. For instance, in the scene between Quark and Odo, there's a long period of time when it's a two-shoulders. shot of us, but Odo is very much in focus, and Quark, who's only a foot or two behind him in the office, is totally out of focus. But for an extended period of time, I get it sometimes fading in and out. Of course, we have to do that. But this was an extended period of time.

And I guess my ego didn't like the fact that I was out of focus for that moment. I remember the shots. It was when Odo turned towards, you know, turned away from you and was typing on a computer off camera. We couldn't see what he was doing, but he was talking about how he was looking into whatever information you mentioned or something. And then he did the same thing that says in my

notes that we see Richard Bamer's back for a long period of time in the scene with Cisco. He wasn't interested in getting his face on camera. Yes, I remember that. Yeah. You mean before Cisco leaves to go to the planet?

That's when he's talking to Lee Nulles? There was no coverage of Richard Bainer at all in that moment. And it was kind of a longer, I agree with you. I forgot about that, but yeah. And then as I said, in the moment when they're walking under that tunnel, which we remember, they're totally in the black. Totally, we lose them all together. We know that's them.

We know that. You can see a silhouette a bit, but yeah. And it wouldn't have bothered me so much if we hadn't lost the other actors in previous scenes. So it actually stood out more because of that. You saw that. Okay. All right. Okay.

Well, you know, they're in the Montessary Garden and they're talking and she's very evasive. She doesn't say what really happened in her vision. And then out of the blue, Vedic Wynne is up on top of the bridge. And again, it's just the creepiness that you got from Vedic Boreal has sort of infected Vedic Wynne as well. she's extra creepy in this scene what the heck is going on she's like but i get it from her i get it because she she's not trustworthy what you can say arman i would venture to say a lot of people are are saying one thing and meaning something else lots of innuendo throughout this scene excuse me throughout the episode yes and it may be because this is a very political episode

and so we're suggesting that politicians uh are are a little bit insincere, insincere, you know, or double speak. They have a lot of double speak going on. Yeah, because she acts very friendly, super friendly and innocent. Like she doesn't know anything. Yeah, but then of course. I mean, sorry, that's Louise's choice because the script says she's genuinely nice. Okay.

That's what the script is. But the writing, though, Wynne says, we've met before, haven't we? major major i mean it just to me you the last time that kira talked to vetic win was do you remember after the almost assassination attempt yeah she grabs vetic win's arm very forcefully i'm gonna say vedic win has a as a bruise still from that it was like i know it was you i know what you were doing kira's on to her you know so it just yeah i don't know well if you're gonna hire nurse ratchet to play the part uh you're you're going to have a little bit of teeth in it you know yeah you are you really are so anyway she was yeah very fake

friendly fake friendly and then uh she does say at the end i love she she says stay as many days as you want even a week oh great line but what about that other line where win says uh beryl Beryl says something, and Wynne says, good for you, Vedic, Barrio. After working so hard, you deserve a little recreation. So it's sort of like she knows that there's some... Playing a game. Yeah, or also that there's some possibility of fireworks between these two characters. Exactly.

And in the script, there is an ellipsis before she says recreation. Oh, is there? The writers are giving her the okay to be. To be that way. Make that suggestion. Yeah. We have a planet shot next. And then we go inside this war room on Bejor, and there's a beautiful, it's a beautiful set.

By the way, I made another note about Corey's compositions of shots and things. He did some beautiful symmetrical photography in this episode. And what I mean by that is he would take the frame of the camera and balance it completely. He'd put right in the crosshairs, the actor, as opposed to putting them on one side or the other, which is often what you do to sort of balance the edit, he would put them dead center. And in this scene, Cisco was beautifully composed, dead center of that set in a way that almost made him look,

you know, religiously holy in some way. He had this sort of circle around his head and this sort of framing. Cisco or Crim, the general or both of them. Cisco in the entrance had a particular design that I thought was very flattering and symmetrical. kind of framing he did was beautiful and the general looked great as well i thought the scene photographically was done beautifully if i was a guest star and i was general crim and i walked on that set i'd be very impressed i'd be i would help my acting with this this amazing war room yeah

it was really well done yeah um cisco visits the general though he says the army keeps pulling back from the circle like why are they doing that and crim you know says listen it's pejorin against Bajoran you you don't understand like you wouldn't get it right we can't we're not going to kill our own people basically and Cisco tells him uh then he tells him about this Cressari ship that's supplying weapons to the circle and he does say I'll keep you updated we know a little bit but we're trying to find out more but this is news to General Crem he has no yeah cram has no idea and then Cisco asks uh if maybe he could get Cira back on the station that would be really helpful and crim says it's not his call you're going to have to talk to jarro and then crim

says you know you told me about the weapons before you asked the favor you could have traded you could have blackmailed me basically you could have been politic yes and Cisco says I'm that's not how I work I wouldn't do that and then crim goes I'll remember that about you You're not this political person with some type of subterfuge going on. Some, you know, evil motives. So, yeah, I like that scene a lot. Great scene. And this actor, Armin, as you said, was up for.

Stephen Mock. Stephen Mock was up for Picard to play the captain. Oh, my God. I could totally see it. This actor had a lot of charisma and gravitas, and he was great. You know, and originally the idea was to, get another kirk you know that's that's what they totally made possibly in their head so stephen physically looked you know in that mode yeah you know the writing though i just i've never heard

someone say when cisco says i understand she hasn't been reassigned yet it would mean a great deal for me to get her back and general crim says that's out of my purview p u r v i e w have if either have you ever seen it written that i mean that type of dialogue like that i purview out of my purview okay Yeah. That's a fancy word, Garrett. It's very fancy. And I know you read a lot on Voyager, so I've come across it. I've read a lot of fancy words.

And Armans read more fancy words than me. Okay. All right. It's in Armine's purview. Is it in Armine's Purview? The next time I'm on, I will get you the OED definition of purview. Thank you. That would really help me.

In the script, which was a surprise to me, it says Grim is not sure which side he's on. This is the... Really? This is what it says in the script. Wow. But whatever side, he wants to be on the winning side. But he hasn't chosen as yet is what the script says. Interesting.

He hasn't chosen as yet which side he's on. I can see how he played that. I got that from the performance. For sure. For sure. Because I wasn't sure. I'm like, is he with the circle or not? Yeah, we don't know that.

Yeah. He's very pensive throughout this. That's for sure. He's thinking the wheels are turning. Yeah. Very well acted. Yeah, we go to ops next. Dax tells Lee Nalus, who's, I guess, in charge.

He feels, I guess, the first officer. So he seems like Lee Nalus, even though he didn't know what to do in this job, he's now in charge. Yeah. Dax says, hey, you got another call from this guy. I can't just keep smiling. And we realize that it is the Krasari captain who's been docked and they are, you know, investigating his ship. And he's not happy about it. He's been delayed for hours.

And Lee is very friendly. He tells him, you know, calm down. We'll get through this as quick as we can. And you see, on the view screen, you see O'Brien in the background behind the captain. You see him sort of, I thought it was funny framing, made me laugh because you could see. Again, not focusing on the series regular, somebody's slightly, he wasn't, I don't know if he actually was out of focus, but certainly not dwelt upon. No, not dwelt upon. It's a very background.

in the phone call was a very background kind of peripheral thing. But then we do go into the Krasari Cargo Bay. And we see O'Brien takes this case. He puts it back. Dax calls. And basically O'Brien and Dax decide they should just let him go and finish. If there's any further problems, they'll deal with it on the return in a few days. So at that moment, I was like, well, O'Brien hasn't gone through everything.

Like, I guess they feel like he's innocent. But what we don't realize is O'Brien. Ryan leaves. The captain says, prepare to depart. He leaves. And suddenly, off the label of this case, the goo forms from Odo's goo forms into a rat. Odo was the label. He was the label. And then he turns to the rat. So it's not that they've checked everything on the ship. Yeah. But they're going to move on to plan B, which is Odo stowing away and looking for. To be perfect honest, if I was Odo, I would have stayed the lake. I wouldn't have turned into the rat. I would have been the label, but we don't know that it's Odo unless he turns into something. Yeah, we got to see the goo. The rat did a good job, by the way. The rat was a very good job. Excellent. We go to the monastery garden again. Cisco

finds Kira, kind of daydreaming there. And so she's getting into this monastery vibe. She's talking about daydreaming and just, you know, not being, like she's finally let go of her. I've got to do something for a moment. So she's softening up, you think. She's softening up, which I liked. Sisko lets her know he hasn't given up, bringing her back if she's still interested. And she does mention that the circle is getting so close that she can hear the gunfire from the monastery. And Cisco mentions he doesn't know if the military is going to back the government. But, yeah, he wants her to know that he hasn't given up, getting her back.

And then he heads out. And she starts to go back to daydreaming for a moment. But then she's grabbed. and tranquilized by three mystery Cape thugs. Here's the thing. Don't you think Cisco would have heard that, Robbie? He just left. I mean, seconds from when the tossel happens, right?

She would have, I mean, I know they hypospat her. I get it, I get it. But still, the water, they were trampling in the water and the rocks. I think he would have heard the commotion, but no. It reminds me of a showrunner I used to work for quite a bit who was all about geography. And it had to make logical geography. sense. And this moment didn't. You bring up a good point. Yeah.

If Cisco had taken off one way and Kira had turned and started to walk and then you cut to her rounding a corner some even 10 feet away. Then that would make sense. Just even a cut would have said, oh, now we're a slightly different place. That's where the thugs get her. But it happened in the same spot. The exact same spot where they were having the conversation. Yeah.

The geography and logic did not make sense. No way. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, she gets jumped by the thud. We go into Krasari Cargo Bay now. The rat sneaks out. The rat gave a beautiful performance, by the way.

The rat was so present. Yes. Yeah. Good. Very focused. He was a loanout from Disney. Lone out from Disney. The rat watches as a Cardassian beams in.

He's got a box of some weapons. The captain signs for it. The Cardassian leaves. And Odo, the rat, basically, watches. the whole thing happened so i love how they don't sign their actual signature but it's just a thumbprint that's it that's their signature that actually would be a better signature for us now then yeah i think we should yeah it's starting to convert like yeah well you just tap your credit card now it's close it's that's true it's getting there it's getting there that's true uh we go where where did kira go well

we're in an underground bunker the headquarters of the circle yes it's the circle bunker it's the circle bunker lots of activity, uh, Cura's down there. Jaro is not talking about geography. That did not make any sense. None at all. Wouldn't you come out as Jaro on the same level that Cura is sitting on? But no, he goes up to the mezzanine and he's up in the mezzanine of the cave. What the heck?

And also, why would you take her to the very place that you've been keeping secret for as long as you have? Yes. And it's not, do it somewhere else. I understand why they have to do it because of the length of the episode. But it just didn't make sense to take her there into the center of where all the weapons are. It just didn't make it. No.

Armin, I think Jaro thought he could convert her. I really felt that he, in his mind, he's like, no, I can convince this, you know, person to join the cause. That's a big gamble, though. It's a huge gamble, you're right, you're right. It doesn't make sense. She should have been blindfolded. It should have been in the location.

Well, Jaro walks out on that second level looking very dramatic, Frank Langello on top. Jaro says he is the boss of the circle. He is the circle, he says. Yes. And he wants to know from Kira what Cisco and Starfleet are going to do if they mount this coup. And Kira refuses to help. And Jaro basically says, well, you know, we learned from the Kardashians how to get people to talk.

So we know she's going to go get tortured for Kira. It's horrible. Yeah. I wonder, were your caves, the same caves that we used? I'm sure they were. them. I'm sure they were. Yeah. It looked like the caves that we shot Voyager on down the road. Yeah. Didn't it, Garrett? The same upper level. Okay. Yeah. Do you remember the one episode, Robbie? I think it's basics where that, that alien serpent monster came in and ate Dennis Madeline.

Yep. Well, that was, that was there. He was on the second level. On the same second level. They were throwing spears at the serpent and Dennis Badlone dies in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. same very dramatically uh we go to ops next cisco wants to find kira he uh he's he's really uh worried about her o'brien says otto's going to be back in 12 hours so we still don't know otos what otto has they don't know what odo has discovered they won't know for 12 hours right cork enters ops here and uh he does admit that he knows where they're holding kira it's in the labyrinths between beneath the Parikian Peninsula or Perikian or Perikian? Hold on.

I'll tell you the pronunciation because the other day I said, did they have somebody to tell you this? And I realized, oh, yeah, we always had a pronunciation guy. Yes. Perican? Pariquian. Parikean. Parikean.

The Parikean Peninsula. Okay. They're in the, they're basically in the cave sets on stage 17 or whatever stage. Yes. they're in the cave set that's where Quark says they're holding Kira and Cisco calls for a rescue team heads off to a runabout and Lee Nalas wants to join

and he says I feel like I owe it to Kira and this is finally where that shot goes where Quark is standing there and it's their viewpoint of Quark still in Ops basically right where it fades to black But it was also interesting because Dax was part of the away team. And then when Lee said he wanted to come, Dax didn't go. It's usually Dax would still be part of the away team.

And Lee Nalas would be the addition to the away team. But they did a doceido where it was sort of like, oh, okay. I think the transporters can only transport five people at a time. There's a, do you know what else I love the scene, by the way, Armin? When you say, I know where you can find Kira. And then Cork says, you see, Odo blackmail me in to help. helping him, a matter that I've been meaning to bring to your attention, Commander. And Cisco goes, quark.

Yeah, quark. So funny. Very funny. Yeah, that's scripted too. But not to the extent that Avery did it. It was hot. It was very hot. Yeah.

It was very hot. The script simply says, we don't have time for that now. That's what the script indicates. but but but I I thought it was unnecessarily unnecessarily yeah there was I mean after all yes I understand that they want to get to cure ASAP I understand that that's the need right there in the scene right at the same time my character has just brought them enormously valuable information you gave them the hideout this is huge again this is what I'm saying fork keeps giving them keys to the kingdom over and over and gets no respect

fact. So really, after, if I was Cisco getting this information from you, Quark, and when you say, this is a matter I've been meaning to bring to your attention, commander, I would have been Quark, you know, it would have been more like, thanks for the information, but I don't have time for this right now, right? That's right. That would have been the nicer way to do it. Okay. I agree with you. Yep. And I do agree that Quark continues. He gave Odo the information about the weapons being smuggled. He's now giving Cisco information about where, like, he's the key. They should give him a little more respect. Robbie, Quark is turning into the cast of Voyager with a very integral person, you know,

that is helping everybody. The Cass and the Rodney Dangerfield. And the, no respect. That's right. No respect. Exactly. There you go. Pretty much.

Pretty much. But he does have that lovely scream at the very end. We can discuss appropriate compensation for this one more, and more convenient as the turbo lift is going down. It was brilliant. It's so good. We go into the underground bunker next. weapons are being handed out to the circle lots of weapons and then literally just in the nick of time

the rescue team beams in thank god they didn't beam in five seconds earlier because there were a dozen guys with weapons that would have shot them right away but anyway yeah but don't you think rob they knew how to time it yeah they did they timed it well but Cisco debriefs them as they're after they've beamed in like shouldn't you have talked about that conversation yes it In the shuttle, in the runabout. Here's our plan. This is our strategy. He gives them the strategy after they beamed in while they're amongst the danger.

And I thought, oh, okay, that's fine, I suppose. Straight power play. Whoever finds Kira attach this com badge to her and get her out of her. Beam her up to sickbay. That's it. Yep. They run in and their guns are blazing. Immediately a firefight happens.

They find Kira. She's bloody. She's got all the, she's been tortured. That was good makeup. She looked like she'd been beaten quite a bit. Yeah. Bashir goes up to her entice her. He gets shot.

Now, Bashir gets shot. It looks like it literally goes through his body and hits the wall on the backside. But yet, I don't think they deal with it. No. He's not injured at all. Did you catch that, Armin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had the same problem in the last episode where, you know.

Lee Nalus got shot. And the other guy got shot and the other guy is gone, totally gone. Right. But the Nalus just got a pain in the back and that's about it. You would assume that the Cardassian weapons were on kill, set to kill, not to stun, right? Because one guy already did die and Linaless did not. And again, here, you would think that Bajorans are defending themselves on set to kill as opposed to stun as well. But yet, Bashir lives.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. But, you know, you can't kill a series regular. You can't. No, you can't. And literally, when I saw the rescue team beam in with the two guys in the brown uniforms, I was like, they're going down. So they were the Bajoran red shirts is what you're saying, those guys? But they didn't die either.

They didn't die. Oh, they were alive too? Yeah. Oh. At least that's what the script is. I don't remember the shot. But the script says everybody gets out, including the, you know. Wow.

The deputies. It says it causes the. It causes the deputies. Yeah. Okay. But Robbie, remember in the last episode when you were joking about how when the Kardashians at the Stone Corrie are being shot, how they did that jumping backwards flip like they were doing the same, the Cardassian.

I mean, sorry, the Bajoran security guys were doing the same flip back. Yeah, it's like the feet go up and you just land right where your feet were moments before. Yes. Instead of falling against a rock or, you know. Yes. So when I saw that, I said, they just did a Robbie special. special is what they did. That's a Robbie special. There you go. Yeah. Well, they go back. They're in the infirmary. Bashir, who miraculously has no injuries from his baser hit. And why is a doctor on an away team? He shouldn't be part of the attack team. Yes, I suppose he could be there in case someone got hurt. Right. But he shouldn't be part of the attack team. No. No. Definitely not. I don't even think Cisco should be part of the attack team. He's too risky. Exactly. That's what number one is for. That's right. That's right. That's right.

That's right. Lee Nala should have, well, he was there. Bashir's fixing her wounds. Kira says they have to hurry that Lee is the only chance they've got. They've got to get Lee Nalas back there. He can speak to the Chamber of Ministers. Maybe that can stop this. And then Odo arrives.

He's back. He's no longer a rat. He found out that it is- That's what you think. As far as my character is concerned, he's still a rat. He did find out about the Cardenas. The Cardassian weapons, the Cardassians, he figures out here, the Cardassians are just using Jarro and the Circle to get rid of Starfleet and then the Cardassians are going to come back

a clever turn, I thought. A very clever turn. Very clever turn. I agree. Yeah. And Odo has the proof. He actually stole that pad, the pad to the manifest pad. And he has the gold thumb scan on it. Yeah, Cardassian details of all the whole thing. We go to ops next. Cisco asked Ax to call Bayjor. She says all the channels are jammed. And Kira says, well, that means this is started. The coup has started then.

Yeah. And that's when Cisco says, get me Admiral Chikote at Starflea Command. And I thought, did Robert Beltran? What? I was really confused. I know. I was excited. There was going to be some tie-in like his dad or somebody.

That's what I thought. But that guy definitely was not indigenous. The guy on the screen was as, you know, as... Nor was he McKee either. He wasn't. No, he wasn't a McKee. He's, yeah, yeah, not even close. So, yeah, Sisko wants to talk to Starfleet Command, Admiral Chakote, and we go to a planet shot.

And then down to the shrine where Wynn joins Jaro in the temple, inside the temple. Yes. And they have a wonderful scene. here. I thought it was really well-played. Oh, my God. The caliber of acting in that scene? Oh, my God. Really good. Excellent. When joins Jaro there, he basically asks for her public support, that if he gets the religious support, then the people go along with it. She says that she wants, you know, Orthodox values in Bejoregan, but the assembly is not listening to her. And he says, well, he can make that happen. He can make her the new cod.

he'll get behind that. Yeah, and he also said, how would it be if the new leader of Bejor joins your orthodox sect? So he's basically saying, I'm all in. I'm also Orthodox like you. I'll even join your sect as long as you scratch my back. I'll even sell Bibles for you if you want. Exactly. Wonderful scene.

So you see the religious and the political will coming together in the scene. She doesn't even say Minister Jaro. She calls him by his first name here. Essa. She's like, well, I need more than that Esa. So there is a history between these two, clearly, already. Yeah, so we go to space shot next and then into ops where Cisco gets a call from Admiral Chakote. O'Brien tells Cisco that two Bajoran assault vessels are headed towards DS9 right now. Yeah. And that all non-Bajorans have been ordered to evacuate. So Cisco takes the call, talks to the Admiral, tells them the Cardassians are using the Civil War to return control of the station and to return to control of the station and control of the wormhole.

Cardassians want it all back. Admiral says, is this internal the Civil War? And Cisco's like, no, yeah. And he goes, well, prime directive means we have to leave it alone, stay out of internal affairs of Bayjor. Get out of there. That's an order. So the admiral's not helping him out. Nope.

You can't trust anybody named Chacote is what I... You can't. How dare you, sir? How dare you? Maybe he was McKee. Maybe he was. Maybe he was Marquis. Things are not looking good for our heroes here.

No. No. We have a final scene in ops where Cisco asked Chief O'Brien how long it would take to evacuate D-Space 9. O'Brien says, yeah, you know, three hours, but Cisco goes, no, no, no. I mean, complete evacuation, where we take everything that's Starfleet, all the equipment, everything. And at that point, O'Brien says, well, probably a week or so.

I don't know. Days, yeah. This will take forever. And just Cisco ends with that line, then I guess some of us won't quite be done by the time they get here. And that's the end of the episode there. So that's a very politic thing for him to do. And let us remember with General Grimm's, this is not a podcast.

Politic, man. I guess the episode proves that to be not true. Yes. Cisco is learning how to play the nuance of politics here. How to play ball. Yes. How to play ball. Oh, yeah. So part three, we're going into a, this is, we never had a three-parter.

We never had a three-parter. Never. We've only had a couple of two-parters. And very few two-parters, even, you know, if you're talking about two-parties, we had very few-two-parters. two or three the whole seven years I think it's amazing I love the three-parter here

I do I don't know what was in the thoughts of the writers and the producers this is of course as the beginning of the second season I can tell you that we were losing viewer share

at this point and it may be that they decided to do a three-parter to try to oomf the viewer share wow interesting maybe I mean that's me

thinking I have no proof of this no but I'm thinking I'm remembering back when and the problems that we were facing. That makes sense. It's a big episode. It's a big three-part episode. Right.

It's huge. And if you've got an uncredited actor of that caliber, why not use him? Why not? What is your takeaway? What is your lesson? What is your overall theme? My moral lesson code of conduct. This is a hard one for me to come up with a like a,

a simple lesson. My mind went to the famous quote of Lord Acton, where he said all power seems to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's where my mind went. I love that. I think that's so apropos. It really is. I think for, I'll go to Armin. Armand, what is your overall theme or lesson from this episode? Well, as I watched this episode, and I've mentioned this already, everybody had innuendo everybody was saying one thing but it was obvious they were meaning something else it wasn't just the pejorans it was also the starfleet people as well and so i went not to lord ashton but i went to a common man william shakespeare and um and and something from the scottish play where he said there are daggers in men's smiles oh i love that yeah i hate to be cynical

It's very true, but I hate, I want to believe people smiles and I hate when I go to that paranoid place where I don't trust people. But this episode shows us, don't be naive. Don't be naive, yeah. And don't put your toes in a running stream because you'll get mugged. That's a great lesson right there. Don't put your toes in a running stream because you will get mugged. What's your lesson, Garrett? Yeah, for me, it's really, it's about trying to remain a free thinker.

I think a lot of times because, you know, we have parents when we grow up, so we're supposed to, we're taught to trust what our parents say without any question, that they know what's best for us. And then as adults, we're taught to trust our leaders, our political leaders, or our bosses at work, you know, whatever it may be. And sometimes people end up acting like sheep. and they don't sit there and they don't do the due diligence

they don't do the research they don't question and trying to see what the other side is what the flip side is and I do think that people should try the lesson is be a free thinker

don't don't always go along with the crowd you do have to to really do your own research because sometimes there are ulterior motives by the people that should have your best interests

at heart and they're not so be a free thing as Ronald Reagan said trust but verify Okay, there you go. There you go. So that would have been my, thank you for saying my lesson. Here's a question I'd like to pose. Usually the sphere, the orb, the tier of the prophet, as we used to say, usually gives you an insight into the reality of a situation. Did we get anything from that vision? No. No. I don't think so. Except that there's political strife happening. and that there could be nooky between barrio and and uh kira yeah i'm thinking what was that for in this plot buying for yeah yeah where unless it pays off in the next episode i was about to say i hope

it pays off because that would be a shame if it was just meant to confuse and not give insight or tie back to something yeah okay interesting well our patreon poll theme moral of this episode is submitted by Katie McCarty. Katie says the theme is, people in power may not always have your best interests in mind. There you go. I like it. There you go.

Okay, well, thanks everyone for listening. And before we go, I wanted to talk with Armin about the Pankan. Armine, I know you've been involved with this group for a long time. We know a little bit about it, but tell us what's going on. Sure. Before we all leave and say good night, I am part of an organization called Pancreatic Cancer Action Network, in which we abbreviate to Pankan. Our organization is there to help people who are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, to help the families, to help the friends, to do everything we can to make it easier. One of the great things we've done over the course of many years, 25 years actually, is raise the survivability rate. When my wife, who had pancreatic cancer was diagnosed 20 years ago, the survival rate was about 3%. It is now up to 13% for which we're very grateful,

but it's not good enough. So we continue to look to raise money for Pankan, and if you feel it in your heart that you want to help this incredible organization that not only am I a part of, but Kitty Swink, my wife is a part of, John Billingsley is a part of, Jonathan Frakes is a part of Juan Carlos, Koto, who is Manning Koto's brother is a part of.

All of us represent what's called TREC against pancreatic cancer. And our team, as well as other teams, are raising money for help. We already have raised about 125,000. Our team has raised about 125,000, but we want to raise more. Please go to Pankan.org and help us out. Look for Team Trek, Trek against Pancreatic cancer, and contribute if you can. It's a great group of people to be involved in. I'm so grateful that you've gotten us involved, Armin, and the improvements, as you said, to

survivability are incredible. Those are real people in real lives that have been changed. It makes a difference. What we try to do is not only help the patients and their families and their friends, but we also are trying to educate doctors because the problem with pancreatic cancer is when you really start to manifest symptoms, it's usually a little too late. So we're trying to educate doctors so that when they hear about these symptoms, when they see these symptoms, they immediately check for pancreatic cancer, something that they usually don't do.

And so it's not only helping families and patients, but it's also educating doctors, also looking for cures, and looking for a cure for pancreatic cancer will help towards cures of other cancers as well. Thank you for sharing this important message with everybody. We appreciate that. Thank you. All right, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to this episode.

Join Robbie and I next time when we will be reviewing the episode The Siege, the third part of this three-parter of DS9, which Voyager never got a three-parter. I'm so jealous. For all of you, Patreon, patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material.