The Delta Flyers - The Cloud

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is The Cloud. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Sims, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller. Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Ann Marie, Philipp Havrilla, Jason M Okun, Stephanie Baker, Stephen Smith, Sarah A Gubbins, John Tufarella, Brian Barrow, Chris Knapp, Daniel Adam, Eve Mercer, James Hildebrand, Matthew Gravens, Marie Burgoyne, and Michelle Zamanian. And our Producers Col Ord, Actuarialist, Aithne Loeblich, AJ Provance, Ann Harding, Barbara Beck, Breana Harris, Catherine Goods, Charity Ponton, Chloe E, Chris Tribuzio, Claire Deans, Craig Sweaton, Crystal Komenda, Dave Grad, Deborah Schander, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Heidi McLellan, James Amey, James Cooper, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Josh Johnson, Karel Hartlieb, Katherine Hedrick, Katie Johnson, Kelley Smelser, Laura Swanson, Liz Scott, Maggie, Mary O'Neal, Matthew Cutler, Mike Schaible, Máia W, Nancy Stout, Nathanial Moon, Nevyn Cross, Richard Banaski, Ryan, Steph Dawe Holland, Terence Thang, Thomas Melfi, Utopia Science Fiction, Warren Stine, and York Lee Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

So we just learned about the passing of actor Richard Hurd, who portrayed Admiral Paris on Star Trek Voyager. Our condolences and our thoughts go out to his family, and we would just like to take this time to commemorate him. Yeah, I want to say it was a real honor to work with Richard Hurd, and I was very proud that he got to play my father. he was always a lovely man at conventions. I saw him for years after we made the show around the world at conventions and he was always so positive and gracious and kind

and I just really appreciated that he was the man that played my father on the show. So we'd love to just take a moment of silence in honor of Richard Hurd. Thank you. Hey guys. Welcome to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order.

Your two hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Garrett Wang, aka Ensign Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who portrayed Lieutenant Tom Parris. If you're interested in either an extended version of this podcast or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which include added bonus segments, check out our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron. Hello, Robbie. Hello, sir. How are you? I'm doing okay. How are you doing? I'm good. Your driveway all done? Is everything's all fixed with your driveway? My driveway done. I was working today. Let's see what house projects I was. was doing. I was going along the fence line with my wheelbarrow and pulling off the the ivy that tends to grow along my fence and I can't stand it. It looks so junky. So I'm, I was going around

the perimeter of the backyard, pulling ivy and weeds. Yeah, it was yard day. So you're not trimming the ivy. You're pulling the ivy. Well, because on the, there's a, I live in Georgia and there's a lot of ivy down here. Like, for some reason, everybody loves ivy. So the neighbors have ivy growing in their trees and all over the place, but it comes through the fence. Like between the, you know, the pieces, the boards, it'll start growing through. And so I go around and I pull it out and I rip it and it feels good. This sounds like the prequel to like a Judge Judy episode where you're going to sue your neighbor for the ivy coming through. For the ivy coming through, yeah.

Oh my goodness. Okay, so this week's episode is The Cloud. Yes, the Cloud. That's what we're going to talk about. Yeah. So for those of you who are with us on Patreon, we are about to play a little game of what do we remember. Yes.

And as for everybody else, we'll be right back with our recap of the Cloud after this break. Okay, guys, we are back from watching the episode, The Cloud. This is a fun one. Wow. I don't think it was exactly what I thought. I mean, a little bit, like my vague memory of the cloud affecting the whole ship. But a couple things I didn't remember. I didn't remember Sandrine's was in this episode, although we talked about it.

You mentioned that before. Yeah. But I really, I didn't remember. what Sandrine's was about. So that whole thing was amazing to watch. And then I didn't remember all the stuff with the spirit guide, the animal guide, all that stuff that Janeway did. Yeah. I mean, once it started playing, I was like, oh my God, I do remember this story. So we'll get it. We'll talk about that as we go through it. So at the very beginning, I find it interesting because they talk about, it's the captain's log, and she talks about the journey home has already been several weeks long now, even though this is technically with a fifth or sixth episode of Voyager, we are already several weeks into this journey. Also, this episode was written by Brandon Braga, directed by David Livingston. So this is... No, the story was by Branen Braga. The script was Michael Pillar.

and I forget the other writer. I don't have it in front of me. So the script was written by Michael Pillar and another writer. Grannon had the story, which I found interesting in a place I'll tell you about later. David Livingston is the director,

and I think this is the first time David directed one of our episodes. Yes. David Livingston was, I guess he was the supervising producer on TNG before... Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

And it's interesting because there was always this fight between or tension between David Livingston and the crew, specifically Marvin Rush, the director of photography, because David literally would take multiple takes to get something done, right? David was a perfectionist and it was very particular, and David would, David had our longest days, and we had some long days, but David Livingston was consistently the longest director. This was his first episode. Yeah, there's a couple things, and I'll bring it up as we go through. I remember specifically thinking, oh, David's doing some different things than other

directors had done. We'd only been doing it a few episodes, but I noticed immediately when we were filming that he was very particular about some lenses. He was using different lenses and very aware of these kind of close, wide angle lenses. He used a split diopter lens, which now I know what that is, but that's the first time I ever heard of that. A split diopters where you keep one part of the frame in focus and then the other part that's way back here also in focus. So it allows you to have this kind of unnatural image. And I'd never seen that before.

David Livingston does that in this episode. He used that lens in Sandrine's a couple of times. And I can talk about that when we get there. But I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You could say that he was a bit of anuteur when he was directing and that he did pay extreme attention to the type of lenses he used, whether he loved that fish eye lens, which I hate the fish eye lens. And he would always try to do a close up on me using a fish eye lens. And it just makes you, it just makes you look like you're in an episode of a twilight zone. And I would say to him, I go, David, can you please just use a regular lens on me? But off the bat, in the, in the engineering. set, you see that just the camera angle that he takes, he's looking, he's always looking at

Bologna from, everything's looking above because he's showcasing that second floor of engineering with all the plastic glass walkway there, which I totally forgot about that it was plexiglass. I thought it was, it was like a great, you know, graded sort of metal type of, you know, industrial flooring up there, but no, it was totally clear, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which may have, you know, who knows, maybe people were watching this. And then that became the impetus behind. Now you can go to the Grand Canyon and there's that clear walkway that walks all the way out.

A lot of different, you know, architect. It's much more common now. I think when we built that set, having glass floors was not something you saw often. So, yeah. Yeah, and you definitely noticed it. You could tell that David was looking for new angles and trying to be different on this episode visually. So it definitely felt a little different. There was also a section, sorry, that Jane Waste, it's still in her little captain's logs.

She says, maybe more than ever now. They need me to be larger than life. I only wish I felt larger than life. And then she says, computer, delete that last sentence. So you see a little bit of... Comedy. It got some comedy and hesitation also in her and unsureness of what to do because, you know, we're literally, this is, we're lost. We're so far away home.

This is, it's scary. Yeah. Yeah, I am made a note of that same line, but I took it. as a as kind of the comedy uh you know you know i wish i was larger than life wait a minute never mind delete that it was kind of you know i took it as the comedy version of that line uh i thought she was very funny she had some funny moments uh she did the doctor had some funny moments in this episode yeah it was a lot of good stuff yeah i had that same note i also when she first came in you and i were sitting there in the mess hall yes and uh she's trying to be

chummy chummy with a crew and uh we don't know that um so so she comes over for a little small talk i love how you had the uh immediately you came out with the uh you know they have an old chinese saying an old chinese curse or something i was like oh my god really are you gonna but but this go ahead go ahead i want to hear what your take my my take is like i forget that this show was 25 years ago and there's a lot of things in here I found, I'll be honest, offensive in this episode. Okay, okay.

I thought that was, I found the way, there was no subtlety or nuance to the way it was scripted. You know, you immediately came out with, well, there's an old Chinese saying. It felt like so stereotypical that, oh, the Chinese guy's going to have a saying

on the tip of his tongue. He's going to, he's going to, yeah, give us a little Chinese wisdom, just like the Indian guy, he's going to have some wisdom too. Right. It just felt, here's what I think. I'll be honest, this is global about this whole episode. It felt like a bunch of middle-aged white guys

trying to write lines for the Asian guy, the Native American guy, the Sondrian's Bar. I thought Tom Paris came out, like came off like the biggest misogynist pig i've ever seen in my life i i couldn't believe it i was like oh my god um you know uh even kess and neelix their little sexy time moment i don't know it just felt like a bunch of middle-aged white guys and i love michael pillar and brandon don't get me wrong but it was a different time yeah and i that very first line when you said well there's an old chinese saying or yeah again i just repeated what it was it said i said there's an ancient chinese curse captain may you live an

time. Mealtime is always interesting now that Neelix is in the kitchen. Now, what struck me about this is it's very clear that Ensign Harry Kim, the last name Kim, everybody knows that this is a Korean last name. Yes. It's not Chinese, okay? So now let us just talk about this. My character mentions there's an ancient Chinese curse. Now later on probably throughout the seven years, or six more times, I will say there's an old Chinese saying, Paris, and I will say something to you. And this really blows my mind because at the end of Voyager, the final season, they had already written the pilot episode for Enterprise, what was going to follow after we were done. And at that time, a U.S. spy plane had crashed landed in China. And the Chinese were holding

on to it. The U.S. government then said, hi, China. Can we have our plane back? And China said, what plane? Because they were stalling because they were tearing everything apart on that spy plane. They wanted to reverse engineer every piece of technology there. The talk was this could cause an international incident between China and the U.S. The U.S. could go to war with China over this. And so I marched myself into the executive producer's office, and I said, why don't you make the character of Hoshi Sato in Enterprise a Chinese character so that this could be goodwill towards between U.S. and China, right? U.S.-China relations. And Brannon said to me, he says, what? Why would we need to do that?

We already have a Chinese character in Star Trek. I said, well, who? And he goes, you, Kim's Chinese. And this is season seven. Robbie, I almost, my jaw hit the floor. I was so shocked. That's what I'm saying. It's a different time and it doesn't excuse it.

I'm not making excuses. And all of us were there. So like, you know, you were there. You said the line. You could have, we all could have done things differently. So all of our barometers were a little differently. let's let's say that Robert Beltran could have certainly had had an opinion about Chocote and all of this freaking stereotypical bullshit Native American stuff that they threw into this episode

yeah um I'll just say I'm working on a show right now called Resident Alien and we have a native native character yeah native american in the in the story but we're shooting in canada's first nations is the words they use up there but we have worked so hard to make our our native culture authentic we actually rewrote an entire storyline when we found out an actress we thought was actually native was could not prove her native heritage so we were like we're not going to put people on here who we do not know are real native actors. We're not going to have a Mexican guy imitating a Native American. It's insulting. We're not going to tell stories that are not authentically vetted by real research and and by tribal consultants who tell us that that's

okay. So I know that that was not done on Star Trek. I know that they did not. Let me put it this way. I don't know it. Looking at the way that I watched this episode and how it was done, I don't, I don't believe that they really vetted the Native American culture in this episode very thoroughly. It feels, it feels, and they certainly didn't vet the fact that Harry Kim is not Chinese. So, and they didn't, you know, and then the misogynist part of Tom Paris, I found offensive. So, and I participated in that. So all of our barometers were kind of off. And I can only recognize it now and say, wow, if that's call it what it is. I'm, my barometer, I don't think it was off. I actually justified that Kim, while he was at

Starfleet Academy, took a lot of Chinese studies courses, you know, that he was a, he was a China file, like into everything China. So that's how I justified it. I didn't sit there and go, hey, guys, uh, you know, he's Korean, right? I, I, it, totally just. But did they, but let me ask you this. Did they ever articulate, did they have lines that refer to his Korean heritage? Did they ever talk about Korean food or Korean culture? That's what I'm saying. The implication, you could have, you could have done your own mental gymnastics, but the implication was Harry Kim was Chinese and he's not, that is not a Chinese name, put it that way. Correct. Correct. Maybe in the future, some of these borders and

boundaries won't be the same, but still, culturally, the name Kim is a Korean name. Anyway. And if they had known, you know, if I had known that they had thought this was, like, if the breakdown said, this character, Ensign Harry Kim is a young Chinese Starfleet, Chinese Starfleet officer, I would have immediately said, hey, guys, Kim is not Chinese. The translation of Kim into the Chinese name is C-H-I-N, so Chin, Chin. So it should have been Ensign Harry Chin is what it should have been. Wow, yeah, probably should have.

Yeah, and just so that we can bring this up now, when you spoke about Tom Parris' misogynistic, the only thing that came off is really offensive to me is when later towards the end, we're in Sandrine's bar with all the rest of the crew members, and you turn to the Ricky character, and you tell her that, I'm trying to set the Indian up. Like, just the way you called him the Indian,

I was like, I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I, I, I, I, I'm speechless. I don't know what to say. Like, I, I, I, I did not recall that. And when I saw it, I literally, I literally wrote. Yeah, what did you write? I want to know. I wrote, I wrote, Indian, in all caps. I wrote Indian. I said Indian. Oh, my God. It's, I, I am, I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say. I'm, I'm sorry. And it's, and it's, and it's funny, because. as this show, you know, was trying to be such a forward-thinking, modern, you know, female... Diverse, diverse cast, and female empowerment and very modern in so many ways,

and yet it felt just buried in very old stereotypes, this whole episode. So we got to get through it. We've been talking for 15 minutes, and we haven't even gotten into the episode, but... Okay. Okay, so basically we come across this nebula, right? Janeway is, before that, Janeway is asking for coffee from Neelix, and Neelix pours this, what looks like chocolate pudding into this cup, right? Or poop.

Your poop. Chocolate, pudding or poop. Right. And then he drank, which I thought was awesome. I thought, by the way, Johnny Phillips, Ethan Phillips was amazing in this episode as Neelix. I just find him hilarious and funny, and I thought he was great. Well, you know, I didn't remember him being so ornery because he was, he was really just, you know, he said, these guys are all idiots. He calls basically Janeway an idiot.

And I know. I don't remember that. I love that, though. I wish that they had kept more of that. I think because Ethan is such a sweet human being, they started writing Ethan as a soft, sweet, lovable guy. And that was not as interesting. I think they should have kept him ornery. Anyway.

Yeah. Yes, all the coffee stuff, you know, I thought that that starts becoming her signature. You know, this episode begins that whole coffee thing. Yeah. And I've done that impersonation of her voice, that line. There's coffee in that nebula. I've done that dozens of times at conventions. Yeah.

So we're looking for more energy and we come across this nebula that seems to have some type of energy stores in it. Yeah. Oh, I like the interaction between Tuvok and Kim on the bridge when he's, he's, he's, he's messaging me telling me that he was i i didn't remember that that you that you guys had had this sort of private conversation right across the bridge and i thought why didn't we do that more often like that could have been a fun we could have done that every single episode you know i could have said something to you like oh my god harry you know whatever whatever we could have had real fun oh yeah that would have been a great thing to keep going and i wish we had

Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer? Oh my gosh, so much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane. Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me. Yes. You know what doesn't belong in everyone's epic summer plans, though? What?

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for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash TDF. That's mintmobile.com slash TDF. Up front payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. And Robbie, that to me started kind of going into the territory of Orville.

Like that's something Orville would completely do. You know what I'm saying? And for him to have this private conversation with me after I say, I've never seen anything like it. And then he's like, and so Jim, the junior officers will be worried. if you use this type of terminology. And then I call him out on exactly basically doing the same thing again later, right? And you're right.

Never again. I mean, can you even recall another time that any person on the ship has a private conversation with another person on their, on their comp badge? I don't think so. I think that was probably it. They never really really explored that. You're right. We really, really could have used that to enhance the show more.

Yeah. All right. Oh, and then now you come, you show up. Oh, Kess and Neelix kissing for the first time. Is that right? Yes, and Neil, it's getting hot and heavy. Yeah, I literally, when we got to that point, I thought, oh, is this the nebula that makes everybody feel sexy?

Like, I literally thought, wow, they're getting so hot and bothered that maybe the nebula is doing it. It seems so out of character. Is this the rave nebula? What are we doing in here? No, totally. And I love, yeah, in that same scene when he calls us idiots, I love that. I thought it was great.

Although I've got to say the nebula outside when it looked like it was hitting the windshields and stuff, it didn't look like, it was not our best visual effect. No, it just looked like jello. Yeah, kind of like jelloy kind of effect. And I thought, oh, they could have improved on that for sure. This is also the episode where you break into my quarters,

which was so spooky. And your line is hilarious. It's just when you say to me, you say to me that, that what was the comment that you said? I said the things, you'd be surprised the things you learn in prison. I wrote this down. I literally, when I heard myself say that, I was like, ew, ew, what are we saying? Then you know, where did your mind go when you heard that line?

Because you literally, you'd be surprised the things you learn in prison. It was sort of like. Well, after breaking into another dude's room, and then I say, oh, yeah, you'd be surprised of the things you learn. Did I break into other prisoners' rooms and rape them or something? I don't know.

I mean, the only thing worse is if you surprise me in like the sonic showers and you came in behind me like, Harry, you're soap. Yeah, it was just, yeah, yeah. This was not my favorite Tom Paris episode. No. No. Yeah.

And then, of course, I'm going to, as we do these discussions of these episodes, I'm going to pull out the weirdest lines that Harry ever had. And one of them would have to be after you wake me up. I walk out explaining why I wear the mask is because my roommate is Star for the Academy. You're like, no, I really, I remember my mother's womb. I was like being in my mother's room,

which is like crazy and kooky and bizarre and who writes that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So then we enter the holodeck program. You show me your little holiday program, Paris three, Sandrine's bar. It's a bar in Marseille, France, and how much you love French people and French things.

We see Ricky, and this is interesting. You say, and this is Ricky, I include her in all my Hala programs. But yet later, in Captain Proton, she is not the woman that's screaming in there. That's somebody else. That's a different actress. Okay. We have a blonde actress in that one. And what's hilarious is Angela Dorman, who plays Ricky in this episode.

in my conversations with her off camera, she told me that she's a natural blonde. So she would have been perfect for Captain Proton screaming later in that Hullo program. How was that working with her? I don't remember Angela so well. I remember Judy Gieson, actually. I remember Judy because Judy had been married to a man I know, Chris Tabori, Christopher Tabori. And Chris had directed me in a production of Romeo and Juliet. And he's a wonderful director and a great actor, Chris Tabori.

And so I talked to Judy Geese and a lot about Chris and about the theater and just all that. So I think for that off-camera time, I spent most of my time talking to Judy. But I have to say, I hated it. I thought it was creepy. That line when he says I put her in all my Hala programs. I mean, Holoet programs, let's all be. be honest. There's a lot of pornography that gets created in holodeck programs because that's where you work out your porno

habits, right, or your whatever. That's certainly I know fans have talked about that a lot like, oh, what happens on your private holiday programs? So that even say that like, oh yeah, she's in all my holiday and then she's all over me and like I had to program her that way. It's just that whole thing speaks so poorly of who Tom is. and you know I mean we just like we have to say the lines as scripted we have to play the scenes as scripted and I look at that scene and I'm like well I guess I you know I trusted the writers I trusted the the producers that they were making a story about Tom Harris that they believed in but as I look at that episode I'm like that dug me into a hole as a character I feel okay that was very deep I it was very unattractive it was very unattractive it was creepy, it was gross. I didn't like it. Anyway, the captain's ready room. Chocote comes in holding the medicine bundle, which honestly, it looked like a guinea pig that he was

holding at first. And he takes Janeway through. I'll say another thing just to compare to my current show, Resident Alien that I'm doing with our Native American consultants, we had to create you know, medicine bundles and things like that. We had to create, you know, medicine bundles and things like that. We had a hair-cutting ceremony for when someone dies, you cut your hair. We had to put this all together. And we actually took photographs and sent it to the consultant and made sure that every piece that we were using was exactly authentic. I felt the same way about those props like, oh my God, it looks like a guinea pig.

It does not look. It's just so cliche and over the top and it looks fake. And so, yeah, I found that offensive too. It definitely is, it looks fake, but I will say, as offensive as it comes off, it's still the attempt by the middle-aged white guys to show some culture, some native culture, at least what their idea of native culture is. Yeah, I mean, I guess you can, at the time, I think they were, that was the intention. I don't think there were bad intentions.

Right, they weren't bad intentions. Looking at it 25 years later, we could, we can, do much better now than we did then. And I certainly know I can, so. And in reality, Robbie, since this is an early episode, this was actually filmed 26 years ago. It was filmed in 1994. We premiered in 95, but this is a 1994 filmed episode.

And this is the first time that we see Janeway Spirit Animal is a lizard slash salamander, which is, is this foreshadowing to threshold? Yes, it is. I think it. Well, the story was Brandon Braga's story, right? This was Brandon's. And Brandon wrote Threshold later on.

So maybe he tied in the spirit animal and all that, yeah? Maybe that's Brandon Baraga's spirit animal. Maybe that's like coming back in over again. Exactly. And we learned that word Akuchi-Moya, which I used to joke with, with Robert Beltran on the set all the time. I would literally- A-Cuchy-Moya, he said something else earlier.

He said Nuwanka and Pucketa. Yeah, Pucketa. Pokemon, yes. Yeah, Pokemon. Before the Akuchimoyah, let's just go back. The first time we hear Zimmerman's name mention is in sick bay. I found it really, it was a very small detail,

but when Balana comes in with the doctor, they're so combative with each other. And then later on, it was nice to see the doctor sort of set Balana up to be the hero when he's like, oh, you know what to do, right, Balana? sort of comes up with a solution. So that was a nice, I liked, I liked that. Because at first I thought, why are they so combative?

But later on, later on, it paid off. Right. Yeah, he mentions Zimmerman. I also saw Bob Picardo stroking, stroking the computer graph, like a computer might stroke another computer. I thought that was very central. I did not pick that up. It was very subtle, but he was like,

oh, yes, I see in here. And it was very, there was a lot of sexuality and sensuality. Yes, yes. Wasn't it? Most definitely. I agree with you. Yes. But the whole name is Zimmerman.

Now we know the programmer's name is Zimmerman. Because everyone always says, the doctor doesn't have a name. Well, it's, in essence, it is Zimmerman. And here's a little side piece of trivia. That is Jerry Ryan's maiden name. Is it really? Yeah, because she comes from both mother and father, 100% German. If you went into Jerry Ryan's parents' house, which she will tell you, on the walls,

there are pictures of relatives from World War II that are wearing U.S. military garb and also relatives that served in the German army wearing German military garb. So they're 100% German, and Zimmerman is her maiden name, which is hilarious because the doctor's name and how The universe just kind of like, you know, these things like that. It's crazy. All right. Moving on. Moving on, moving on.

Oh, Akuchi-Moya, I would joke with him. I would say, Akuchi-Moya, we are far from the sacred places of our grandfathers. We are far from the bones of our people. We are far from our lunch break. Like, I would always, like, come up with, like, things. Yes. The Kuchimoya. I did think that there was a lot of sexual energy in this whole episode from everybody.

I thought Cape Mulgrew's interest in finding her animal guide was slightly, it was intense. She was like so wanting to find her animal guy because it almost felt, you know, and she was flirting with Chakotay and over it. I found that really interesting. Also, later on, when Neelich says, I don't want to go back in that place,

let me and Casta on my ship and we'll wait for you, I was like, wait a minute, what? We've got his ship on board. Why didn't that ever come up again? Yeah, we never see, we never see a ship again, really. No. No. I mean, where would we store it? It's a very small ship. It's not like the Enterprise D. I mean, we have a small ship. Where is this damn ship? We just sort of forgot that we were, yeah, I don't think there was ever another mention, but it was interesting to know that we still had a ship on board. Loose end number, loose end number one, right? Yeah. We have that one. I thought, I thought when we did go back into the nebula, our shakes were finally on point.

I feel like we finally had found our shaking technique, and that was really good. I didn't think when the ship was diving, like, down like that. I didn't think that that was a great effect either. It looked a little. It was okay. You know, I just realized our podcast listeners are not going to understand when you go because you're using your hand. It's kind of like diving down.

It's kind of a weird angle. It just didn't look. it didn't look dynamic it wasn't the greatest you know Robbie how I make fun of your yes ma'am all the time well you did a very you did a very dejected yes ma'am in this episode because we talk about Janeway says well let's hope it has a slow digestive process because we're going back in the nebula and you go yes ma'am like you were like really kind of bummed out like we're we're in the belly of the whale yes ma'am it was yeah as invigorated as normal there's a lot of ways to do a yes ma'am yeah yeah that's a it's an

infinitely expressive phrase. I agree. And I feel like in seven years I expressed every version of yes ma'am that you had possibly. You had numerous versions of yes ma'am. And talking about the physicalness of this show, the sexiness of the show, did you notice Janeway keeps her hand on your shoulder towards the end of that episode? Yeah, I did. The entire time. And I'm wondering, again, is this a choice because the original plan was for Paris and Janeway to be a couple? I don't think so. I think by now they were already interested in Chakotay and the captain. That was the place they were going to go. I liked Nelix coming out with snacks on the bridge. I wish he did that more often.

Okay. Tell me why you like it. Just because it was... Just because we're shooting a long day, it'd be nice to have snacks. Okay, because, you know, I'd have to say throughout the run of Voyager, whenever I go to conventions, There's a lot of people who throw shade at Neelix, you know, that say, oh, God, I just, I hate that character. And I'm wondering, was that scene part of the beginning of the dislike of the Neelix character? It's sort of like, wait a minute, you're not supposed to do that on a Starfleet bridge. You're bringing in snacks? Like, this is not children playtime?

I like the snacks just because I thought it was charming and cute, but you're right. I think that the initial concept of that character, when he was so ornery and, and he was in that junk ship and he had the cool coat. Like, that would have been a much, he turned so quickly into this like the goofy chef's hat and serving people and I think when he was ornery, he was much more interesting. So, and, you know, calling himself the morale officer.

Like he should have called himself the Delta Quadron police and I'm not letting you do this. Like it would have been more interesting to see, because he's a charming human being. Ethan Phillips is one of the nicest people in the world. So even if he had played him tough and ornery, it would have been fun and funny. It would have been more interesting.

Well, Robbie, this is my revelation. I just realized this now. I'd like, because he is a bit ornery in this episode. And like you said in that coat and we first see him, I feel like the writers sort of abandoned that once Picardo took the ordinariness into his decision of how to play the doctor. And they were like, oh, well, if we have one, one guy with this character being kind of snappy back of people,

we might as well not make Melix that edgy guy. So I think we can blame this on Bob Picardo. And we'll talk to him about this. He took everything on the bridge, on the set, and he ruined Melix. Speaking of Bob Picardo, so the doctor shows up and he says, I've been listening to your plan or your lack of plan or at some point he just pops up

and he knows what everyone has been talking about. And I was like, wait a minute, that's creepy too. Like, so the doctor, all seven years, was able to just listen in to everybody's room because he's part of the computer. Like, that just seems wrong. So he's big brother, basically. But before he said that, he did say, one of you forgot to turn off my program. So he brought that up. But you're right.

Like later on, he's never really turned off later, right? No, no. Always on. So he listened to everything that Balana and I did. in our quarters? Yes, yes, ma'am, he did. Yes. Janeway's a pool shark.

We didn't know that. No, did not know that. Also, Harry says he's going to ask Chucote about animal guides. Harry said that. Did you ever ask Chucote about your animal guide? I never asked. I don't think he did.

I'm sure they would have written it in as a panda because it was a Chinese animal. Yes, under the forests of China. So, um, I have, I have two last comments. One is, uh, when Balana says, uh, so you program this, Tom? And I said, yeah, and, and you program the, the pool shark? I say, yes. Bala says, well, he's a pig.

And so are you. I was like, yes. You're right. I am a pig. He's a pig. This whole story is, is a pig. Uh, the, the, the, all of it. So that, yes, thumbs up to Bala.

for calling it what it was. And Sandrine was going to teach you some things. Did she teach you anything, Harry? She didn't teach me anything. I like when you first introduced me to her, and she offers her hand for me to kiss it, and I shake it, right? I shook her hand,

and that was a choice that I made as an actor. I said, I'm going to be so awkward and just shake this lady's hand instead of kissing it. And then, yeah, right before the pig comment, Gaunt Gary says to Balana is like his approach to women is treat a lady like a tramp and a tramp like a lady never fails and I thought wow yet another horrible

line but thank God they mentioned that you're the pig and that you programed so that was sort of the justification and validation at the end okay so I think I think we've covered that episode not my favorite episode I will say no not my not my favorite episode what do you think was the underlying meaning or the underlying message from this episode the cloud I think the, to me, I thought it was interesting that Janeway was willing to risk so much for the mistake that she had made. And I think that's a theme that she plays out a lot. Like if she feels responsible for a wrong in some way, she's going to make it right. Even if it means risking the entire ship and everyone's life, she's going to try to make it right.

And it's very heroic. It's very noble. I think in a way, that's the theme to me is like, a theme of personal responsibility on some level of like if we if we if I do something that's a mistake or that hurts someone else I'm going to fix it I'm responsible to fix it okay um and in reference to fixing the nebula like yeah correct okay yeah I'm gonna go leave even further I'm gonna I I think it it has to do with grief because um Chocote talks about worse the crew is sort of in a grieving session basically the grief of

knowing that we are so far away from home and that we may never get back home, right? And so, and when you're in a period of grief, it's easy to sort of kind of shut down everything and not interact with anything around you. And this episode sort of teaches that, yeah, okay, something bad can happen in your life. You can be upset about it. You can grieve about it. But the quickest way back to normality is to sort of find other things to do. like Shea Sandrine, like, you know, whatever it may be, just go about doing something, get active. Don't say there and be this, you know, curmudgeon who's in the cave

and doesn't want to socialize or anybody, you know. That's interesting. That's kind of what I got out of it. Yeah, but I think you're definitely right. That's at that point in our show, there's a bit of grief and a bit of feeling lost and like, how do we create what's normal? right what's what's the new normal yeah right well great well thanks guys for for sticking with us for a recap and our conversation and again i apologize for tom paris being a misogynist and a jerk

and a pig as balanus said he will redeem himself don't give up keep watching the show he'll get better okay guys thanks so much for listening in to our review of the episode the cloud next week join us as we talk about the next episode, which is Eye of the Needle. Until then, live long and prosper.