The Delta Flyers - The Darkness and the Light

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, The Darkness and the Light, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and special guest Nana VisitorThe Darkness and the Light: A mysterious assassin targets the members of Kira’s resistance cell for execution.We would like to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers, Megan Elise and Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, Tim Neumark, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jenny Cordina, Izzy Jaffer, Francesca Garibaldi, Jonathan Capps, Chris Dellman, Chris Garis, Sean T, Cindy Woodford, & Tamara Evans. Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sarah A Gubbins, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Cindy Ring, Lee Lisle, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, David Wei Liu, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Neil McRae, Randy Hawke, Penny Liu, Matt Norris, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Ryan Mahieu, Robby Hill, Kevin Harlow, Megan Doyle, & Jeff Allen.And our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Sab Ewell, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Maxine Soloway, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Kelly Brown, Sarah Thompson, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Steph Davies, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Sarah Dunnevant, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, SnazzyO, Karen Galleski, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Timothy McMichens, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Slacktwaddle, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, Jim Poesl, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Michael Jones, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Kilian Trapp, Katherine M. Prioli, Nelson Silveira, Kit Marie Rackley, Gordon Watson, Andy Bruce, Andrew Golden, Durrell Bishop, Rebecca Long, Daniel Friend, Damien O’Donnell, & Michael BourguignonThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark Dax and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your host for today are myself, Garrett Wong, and my fellow Trek actors, Terry Farrell, Robert Duncan McNeil, and our super-duper special guest, Nanaa visitor. Woo-hoo! No, no. I'm so good to be here again. Yay. This is fine.

You actually look like you're in outer space right now, right? Where are you? I'm actually in San Miguel Dende in Mexico. You're in Mexico right now. Yes. Yeah. So great. It really is, it's my heart, I have to say.

This place is my heart. Oh. I'm so happy for you. I know you were looking down there. and we have a mutual friend that lives there. I think it's a wonderful place. I've never been, but from what I've heard, it's a magical place. Well, you've got a reason to come down now.

Exactly. Yep. Yeah. Two reasons. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about the jewelry that you are wearing right now. Terry. Very fair.

Tear fair. Tell us about that. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Beautiful. Pretty on you. So pretty. My space sister gave me

this for my birthday. I got it down here in San Miguel. Isn't it pretty? And the owner of the shop is from Mexico City and she designs everything, the jewelry, the clothes. It's like I have to avoid this place. It's so great. And she said, show me a picture.

Show me who this is you're looking for. And so I did. And she said, okay, all right, wait. How tall is she? And she was like this. Oh, my gosh. And yeah. And she was so right.

And then the additional thing is, she said, I'm a witch. So I'll bless it. And she did a blessing that was like with a piece of wood, which I've never seen before. And it was just very cool. And then she wrapped and she said, don't touch it. This is for her to touch. This is her. And then I said, I didn't touch it.

I didn't touch it. Yeah, I didn't. It's blessed. It's blessed. It's known from me. Then she explained that part. So it was like, okay. I didn't touch it.

I'm not worried about Nana's juju. I was like, I did not touch it. I didn't, Terry, but I did lick it. I did lick your necklissed on it. I did a pejoran pregnancy sneeze on your necklace. That's right, which is a whole different. That's a blessing in itself. Yeah.

Nana, isn't San Miguel like what I've heard is that it's a very spiritual place like Taos, New Mexico or Sedona or Woodstock or some of those places. There are rumors that it's built on quartz. Because there are quartz mines nearby. And these are courts. And it's a it's a UNESCO city. So, you know, it has to remain the way it is. There is a feeling here.

And the people here is just it's a wonderful mix. It's really a wonderful mix. And some of the best restaurants I've ever been to. That's what I heard. I've heard it's incredible. French pastry. It's like it's crazy. Wow.

And Terry, you have that energy on your bracelet. I know, but it suits me. Well, she's also got New Mexico energy, which in itself is a big deal too. But it's the same kind of more laid back. I mean, it's not like we make ourselves busy because of our lifestyles, no matter where we live. but the energy in the town is calmer and more relaxed and there are less people in a big hurry to get to where they're going you know. For all of our people that are just listening, can you describe what the necklace looks like

for those that are not watching that can only listen? It is a, okay, how do you say this? It is like a choker, but it doesn't connect in the very, back. It's a piece of silver. It looks like it was hand, what do they call that? Like blacksmith? Hammered? Yes. But in an elegant way and it's still very kind of handcrafted. It doesn't look homemade. It looks handcrafted. And it's a little bit irregular oval. And it has three pieces of lapis, Lazzule. Yeah. That's what that is.

They're all three different shapes. Yes. I have to be careful, though, because the silver is very pliable. So when I went to put it on the first time, it was like, whoa, don't break it. Yeah, so you can bend it to the way your shoulders are. Oh, that's great. So beautiful. The actual gemstones, are they welded onto the metal? They just match. hold. It's held by love. They each have their own backing. And then they have prongs that hold them onto the silver backing. That's super cool.

And then it's, yes, it's as if the backs of the silver that are holding the Lopas Luzul are probably soldered to it, but they might have also been glued because, actually it looks soldered. But sometimes jewelers use glue. Okay. I mean, because it's not like I'm going to go swim laps with this on. Right. You took a jewelry class, so you know this stuff.

Oh, I missed that. I'm trying to find a place here to take that kind of class. I like the teacher I had, but it's all online, and I want somebody where it's like physical presents, where you can see the demonstration in real time. What a great birthday present, Nana. Nice. Great birthday present.

Speaking of birthday. Oh, what? Look at your little segue there. Oh, my gosh. We've got some birthdays this week. Yes, we do. First, we'll start with Holly Smith on February 16th. Happy birthday, Holly. Happy birthday, Holly. Happy birthday, Holly. Happy birthday, Holly.

Happy birthday to Holly. Next up, we have Megan Doyle, who's also on February 16th. So happy birthday to Megan. Happy birthday, Megan. Happy birthday, Megan. Megan, have a great day. Nana, I loved this episode. I will start by saying that.

I really did. I thought your performance was great. He never says it like that. I rarely say that. I thought that was his limerick. Nana, no, no. I love your episode. I go, wow.

He's going. Poetry. I know, it's so outside the box. Well, I got inspired, and I'm, I, this is maybe one of my favorite poems on all of the D-C-Rs-9 episodes. I got inspired about the lesson and about kind of what Kira learned and what I learned. And it's a great reminder, especially in these times. So here's my poem.

Kira said, I did what I had to do. Salarin thought he was innocent too. For each life we take leaves generational heartache. No righteous cause can ever make that untrue. Oh. of that yeah look at that deep that's great yeah it's a great episode it's a powerful lesson and perspective and beautifully done by all of you like performances some of the best of your series so far all around terry you and michael i mean didn't have a big story but i love the scene with

your comedy as i was watching the scene in the shuttle i was like oh my god there's her becker she's heading off to Becker soon. Yeah. Her sitcom energy, her comedy energy is on point. And Nana, your work was so naturalistic and grounded and effortless.

Renee, I thought was the best performance I've seen in the series. Direction, phenomenal. Yeah. And had you already had Django? It's so funny because I was like, I wasn't pregnant anymore. I really remember not being pregnant.

But I looked up on AI. What's Nadat visitor pregnant? And it said, yes, in fact, she was. What? No. No, I could tell one of the spots you were wearing a pillow. Yeah. Because it was just how you were.

I was just kind of. That's where it drives me insane. Yeah, he caught it. Because it's like, why am I not there? I would have adjusted it. I think I had had him a month before. I had Django September 16th. And I think this was toward the end of October that we filmed it.

But not. Evidently, it was during the episode where it was Terry and, Michael Dorn going to, oh my gosh. Riza. Riza. And also, Sid was there with Lita, the Dabo girl. They were celebrating their breakup. And in the, you know, the memory alpha notes, they were saying that, you know,

Sid actually was super tired because the birth of his son was the day before this scene was filmed. So that was when it happened about a month ago, like you said. Wow. It was actually, Django was born around 11. night and so we were up the whole night of course and that morning he was like can i have a few hours of sleep and i was like nope yeah things have changed because i understand that when you know someone had the someone had a baby on strange new worlds they got father time off they got oh i heard that wow which is really great it's just the two of you really really in the beginning

What I loved is I felt your embodiment, the entire episode of all the things you were juggling. I felt it was such a beautifully nuanced performance where I really felt like this poor pregnant woman, she's trying to just do what she needs to do to have a healthy baby. So that is the beginning. And then it turns into it's like you're a happy brown bear with a baby and your piss that you have to eat. these herbs that taste like crap. And then suddenly you have to turn into a grizzly mama bear because it's this onslaught of a mailstorm of shi coming your way.

It was crazy. And then they tried to tie your hands. And then ironically to me, I felt everyone there, but I think it's a testament to the writing. It felt like even though these things were happening around you, people cared about you that were around you, the focus was definitely on you. And it felt to me like I was watching you fight this by yourself because what they were doing to try to help you wasn't helping you at all. You know, it just felt like you were alone. I love what you said, Terry, about, you know, the point of view or the perspective of this episode because often, as a director, that's the most important thing I want to know is like, where is, whose point of

view is this scene from? Who is the audience supposed to experience this part of the story with? And Mike Vahar was so good at keeping that point of view clear. And it was Kira. It was such a, great experience with your character, Nana. And Mike did such a good job of supporting that, supporting your work and your character and the story and the point of view. I thought it was great. I'm not sure that I saw it at the time, but I see now how much Odo loved her. And as you say, Terry, even Odo knows, and that's kind of the beauty of their character. He knows this is hers to do. I can stand by as much as I can, but this is, she's going to do what she's going to do. Oh, yeah. And I, because I watched it a couple of.

of times that how you played I mean we'll get into it but I don't want to it's kind of nice talking about it now because so I don't lose this thought yes when your last scene kind of with Odo where he's telling you they're going to go and you need to stay here and rest and then you beam yourself to his office and I was like well that's one way to beat him there that was just genius that's technology. Why not? Well, Terry has referred to the mama bear reference multiple times for you. And look how apropos, I actually have a hat with a bear on this. Oh, there we're perfect. Well, we're both mama bears. We do not get in the middle of mothers and their kids. No, you don't do that, ever. No. All right, here's my haiku for this episode. One by one, they fall. Chikar rebels targeted. Kira, saved by herbs. Was she happy to get those herbs from her friends?

No, but she realized how sweet that was that they went and picked fresh ones. I saw that turn. Yeah. And I just thought, are those the same herbs that Bashir was making you eat? It is. Okay. The same, but not, but fresher. So they're more stinky and coldly looked like bay leaves.

Didn't they? They probably were. They probably were bay leaves. Don't eat bay leaves. No. Cook with them, but don't just eat them. I used to have a bay leaf tree in my first home. It sprouted like, I don't know, it just started to grow.

And then I took it to my next house and my next house. And then they moved out of state. And it was like, shoot. I have one. They're great. Yes. They are great. You can just take a branch and give it to someone.

They hang it upside down and they've got bay leaves for a year. Wow. They grow really pretty pretty. They get pregnant. They can eat the bay leaves. They can eat bay leaves. Send you. No.

Tearfair has a poem for the darkness and the light. Let's hear it. A warrior, a survivor, a freedom fighter. Wretching, she devours the bitter cure and edge. Babe safe in her womb, she holds on tighter. Her brethren executed by a stealth phantom's revenge. I like that. All right.

So, tell a play by Ronald D. Moore. Story by Brian Fuller, directed by Michael Vahar. Yes, I want to talk about Mike Vahar for a minute. Okay, let's talk about Mike Vahar. This was the first Star Trek episode to be directed by Mike Veyhar since the next generation episode coming of age, his only TNG directorial credit, which happened almost nine years earlier in 1988.

But from this point forward, he remained one of the franchise's regular directors until the cancellation of Star Trek Enterprise in 2005. So that was my first question to you, Robbie. Why did they wait so long to use them again? I don't know. I have no idea. I'm looking right now at his resume.

After Star Trek Next Generation, he was busy. He did Long Zoo, Mission Impossible, Quantum Leap. He did 17 episodes of McGiver. Yeah, he's a busy guy. Oh, then he was friends with Michael Pillar, too. Maybe that's how the connection happened with Pillar. it looks like he was very busy and didn't do a lot of sci-fi until Babylon 5. He did the next gen in the 80s and then went off and did all these action, procedural,

those kind of things. And then he came back to Babylon 5, and that's where he got back in the sci-fi world. And then he came to DS9 and to Voyager and started doing sci-fi again. I loved Mike. He came from editing. He was an editor. I knew him well. He lived down in Venice.

There he is. Do you recognize him from his picture? Nanad, is that? Yes. Maybe it starts to look a little familiar. Yes, yes, yes. I think he and Cliff Bowl were good friends. Oh, that makes sense.

Yeah. I bet they have very similar energy. Because hearing his name, I also didn't see his face right away, but I had a good feeling. How many DS-9s did he do? He did seven. This was the first of seven. Yeah, that's why there's a good feeling, but not. It's so hard, though, because you're so busy when you're,

in and out when it's about you you're really focused on driving and doing your job the thing i loved about mike and i shadowed him a bit when he was on our show um he had a calm he had a quietness he just kind of did good work um there was no drama you felt like he were in good hands it was the kind of director i wanted to emulate and i hope i've done that because mike was a real role model for me and he was so good and and his set demeanor was great and the way he kind of quietly navigated the story and and you didn't feel like it was mike's you know some directors come in and you feel like oh it's their show you know it's they're they're making their personality and their point of view really important and their shots really important and you know

i've heard directors use the term you know well i need my shot or I need this or I need that. No, you don't need anything. You're serving this story and you're serving the cast. And that was Mike's technique, I thought, was he was there in service of the story and the greater good. He was great. Love Mike. Yeah, I also remember how soft-spoken he was.

He never raised his voice to any crew member, to any cast member. No. Not once. Not even to emphasize, like, in a positive way. Like, the voice was so soft. but with that softness you knew that he knew exactly what he wanted and he knew exactly how to get the job done completely professional and completely prepared but totally soft-spoken to the point where if you didn't listen you wouldn't even hear him i mean he was that good and that that

that almost like not even there does that make sense he was like a ninja a ninja director yes he really makes sense and what it encouraged was this this communication and real creativity between the camera guys and us. There's one shot where I'm in the hospital bed and Odo's here beside me and I'm on my side. And the camera had to come in so slowly and I had to cry by the time they got to this point so they could catch it.

And I just remember us cheering together. The camera, the camera, the camera guys and and Renee and me because it's like, we did it. We got it. It was a complicated shot. And when your tear fell on the, I was like, what? Terry's referring to the fact that we see the tear, it's such a thick tear. It runs down the bio bed material.

Like that way you're lying on the up the upholstery, off your face on the upholstery. It was like, what? Yeah. I know. It was, but that was because it was so challenging. and because he kind of set a stage for that kind of creativity and wanting to get it because you're working as hard as you possibly can, maybe even more with real pressure and that's where magic can happen.

Yeah. He got us there. He caught your magic. Thank you, Terry. Yes. That's well said. Oh, I love it. I love it.

That's how good she is. Yes. So let's go through guest stars very quickly. We have Randy Oglesby as Cillera. Is it Cillarin? I can't remember the pronunciation now. Cillarin, Cillarin? Cillarin, I think.

I'll go with Cillorin. I don't think he's going to argue about it. No, he's not coming to it later. We have Randy Oglesby as Cilloran Pryn. William Lucking reprising his role as Farel, Diane Salinger, reprising her role as Lupiza, Jennifer Savage as Trenton Fala, Aaron Eisenberg as Nog.

Co-stars, we have Matt Rowe as Leitha, Christian Conrad as Brilgar, Scott McElroy as the Guard, and Judy Durand as the station computer voice. These two recurring characters were so lovable and worked so well together that the idea that they were killed hurt me as an actor on set. And that is just to get, you know, not much time. They did it. They just, they were immediately these entities, I felt, that I loved. And it was just, it was unthinkable that they were killed, unthinkable.

Yeah. Which does so much for the story. It really points to what kind of actors, both of them were. Yeah. I thought all the guest stars were. really good. I really did. And I don't always feel that way. To be fair to all guest stars, our shows were not easy to walk on to, to get the tone of. It's like, wait a minute, I just did a procedural. And now, where am I? It's like, you know, and I think sometimes that really

made people look out of place. Yeah. And it was a very intense set. It wasn't the kind of set. It wasn't that we weren't kind, but it was so, we had to go fast. We were really serious. And so it had to be a little, unless you're really experienced. Yeah, well, maybe a little lonely because you're sort of, you're there and you're expected to be there and you don't really know anyone and you don't have time to build a relationship. Yeah. So you have to come in with it.

A little bit of trivia here for his very first episode, Brian Fuller, based. this Star Trek episode on the 1939 Agatha Christie novel. Regarding Brian Fuller, Braun Moore commented, I don't recall Fuller's exact involvement, the timeline there, but I do remember that he had gone to one of our writing seminars and we bought that pitch, and then he did the story. But I wrote the script.

Brian is a genius. So that is amazing to me that he went to some random seminar as a student, pitched them, And they bought his story right there on the spot. Do you remember, Garrett, when we interviewed Brian Fuller a few years ago? And he talked about because Star Trek still accepted outside pitches, that he would write up, and he was young when he was doing this. Yeah. He would write up three pitches a week or a month or something.

And he sneak under a Paramount Lot and deliver them. Deliver them on a regular basis. He was delivering a story idea. He was a psychology student at the time. Wow. He was studying to be a psychologist, yeah. I interviewed him around the same time you did. Yeah, and he interviewed me too.

He was watching DS9 and he was like, I want to do that. Wow. Wow. It's so cool. Well, that was his break. This episode, I guess, was his break in finally into Star Trek. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Very cool. That's such a great thing, too, that Star Trek. had this, you know, opportunity for writers to blossom and grow and, you know, be nurtured. I think it's one of the strengths of the franchise, and I wish the new Star Trek's did it. Nobody does it anymore. Nobody takes outside pitches. It's too bad.

I think for Star Trek, because it's in the DNA of Star Trek historically, it would be great if they found a way to let people pitch from the outside. Yeah. And it's generosity of Star Trek. spirit. It's bringing new ideas in and fresh writers who, how else do you break in as a writer? It's got to be really, really hard. Yeah. I mean, it is for anybody doing anything. It was a nice thing to do that Star Trek was one of the last shows to have that, you know, to have that open door policy. I'm proud of that. That makes me very excited to know that.

We're part of that, you know. This is the most, if you talk about Star Trek being all encompassing, and anyone of any race, color, creed, religion can watch it. And they have a similar submission policy. Anybody of any, anyone in the world, if they wanted to submit, they could have submitted. So I think that's super awesome. I love it. All right. We're going to jump right into this episode.

We start out with it is basically a vetic retreat, but this retreat is being led. It's the cave set. It's the typical thing. Yeah, but didn't they do a beautiful job of setting it up? It was gorgeous. It looks absolutely gorgeous. Sorry, I'm going to talk about Mike Vahar a lot. Yes.

It's the same caves that you always shoot with the same crew that always shoots it, but yet it looked like you said, Terry, so much more beautiful. That's because of the way his eye, he's got a way of lensing and looking at things that just elevates everything. So it was beautiful. And the set design, the pillars and the whole the overhead shot. Yes. Yes.

Yes. So we learned that there is a. that Vedic Latha Mabrin. He is the leader of this retreat, and he makes a quick announcement, and we see other Vedics who are interestingly enough, none of them are showing their faces. Anyone notice that? They're all completely covered. They're monks.

They are monks, but you would think Vedic Latha would also be kind of covered up as well. I don't know. Maybe there's a different designation between Lathya and the rest of them. But they're starting this ceremony. They're all around this lamp. For atonement. Yes, for atonement. this lamp, which is lit, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, this phaser shot just comes out of

the lamp and hits Latha right at the chest, blows him back about 30 feet. And he's dead. Good stunt, by the way. Do they tie a rope around you and then just pull you really hard? That sounds like it probably. Well, they put a harness. If they, they wouldn't tie a rope, that would hurt people. Yeah, it's a harness. They put a whole harness that spreads the pain. God, I'm so unforgiving. That's so terrible. I'm not going to let you run stunts on any show I do. No, please don't.

You're just going to tie ropes around people. So let's go up to Terry. Hey, Terry, we're going to tie a rope around your waist and yank you back. Is that cool? And you're like, yes, I can. Let's get her done. Let's get her done. Okay.

This reminded me, by the way, I have to say, of Sacred Ground, which was the first Voyager episode I directed. Oh, yes. We kind of had this religious ceremony thing. And then Kess in our show got hit by this energy thing at this temple and flew back. It was a similar kind of visual and concept. Yeah. But she did not die, though. Kess did not die from the energy thing.

Correct. No. No, Janeway had to do this whole. And they gave her a harness. Yes. They did give her a harness. Instead of a rope. That's correct.

Not just a rope. Oh, my goodness. We go into the infirmary next for a lovely scene with Bashir and Kira. Bashir wants care to take her herbs. And she says they taste like something that would come out of quarks ear, which was very descriptive. Oh, my gosh. And every time I heard her say that, I thought, well, how does she know that? And I don't want to know that story.

I know the whole episode. I kept thinking of what's coming out of quarks here. I didn't want to think about it. But I went there. We all went there. And we know what that would taste like, too. It worked. Your description works.

Yes. None of us want your herbs. None of us. And of course, Sid being British, says herbs read to this. Have you been taking your macarar herbs? Why don't they just give you progesterone? Yeah. Because she's a pejoran.

And we're in the future. And she has to take these herbs that what do they do? They counteract the sedative. So you say, I don't want to take the herbs because it keeps me awake and I don't go to sleep. which is an important point later on. Very important. I love things like that in a script where you come back to and go, ah,

makes sense. It's like a little nibble. I thought that was great. Little nibbles, yeah, turn into a meal. And it seems like nothing. Sometimes you kind of hear a fact like that and you go, oh, they're saying that, so I'll remember it later. But this one just blew by.

You didn't really pay attention, but yeah, it's important. Odo shows up. Bashir leaves. Odo has bad news. He tells Kira that one of the former members of her resistance cell was killed on Bejor, Latha Maprin. And he says that a small hunter probe was inside the ceremonial candle. And then it fired this disruptor blast.

I've never heard of hunter probes before. I think we may have had. Have we heard of it? Yeah, I think there may have been a mention of it. Back when there was another explosion that happened. Do you remember it was when Nurse Ratchet was there? I'm blanking on her name right now. Not Nurse Ratchet.

Louise Fletcher. When Louise Fletcher was there, there was an explosion on the station. They were talking about there was like a hunter probe that was looking for quark or something at one point. Do you remember that? And he dodged. Well, there's a lot of hunter probes in this episode. In this episode, my gosh. I didn't know you can get hunter probes that easily.

Yes. And I've only seen this tech and other sci-fi would be in Dune. They use Hunter Probes in the Dune film franchise, but not in Trek. So I thought, wow, this is pretty cool. But this is your well, you're showing off your well-rounded sci-fi. Yes. Love, obsession. I suppose, yes.

You could say that. Yes. And it's Cardassian. I think it's cool. It's Cardassian. It's very Cardassian. to have the hunter probe yeah right well that tracks too does but it's black market like you could buy it from the cardassas on the black market so it may not be yeah otto says he'll let her know

if he hears of anything else kira admits in this scene though which i think is is important she admits that laytha was a violent man that he did bad things yes so she immediately is kind of like well before he was this monk he was a violent guy he was a bad guy you're kind of saying here yeah well she's a real straight shooter yeah i am laying judgment on it but also also she could be saying that he had a lot of enemies that could possibly do this yeah that's true but also you're super honest about your participation in the occupation yeah but they they occupied bayshore it's like, well, sorry, fair game. It's like if you're in an ocean and you get eaten by a shark, whose backyard is it? Yeah. That's what happens with violence and aggression. It breeds more

violence and aggression to defend themselves. And now we're in a cycle of violence, which Right. Yeah. Maybe we don't invade other people's territories. Carol leaves. She goes into her room at the O'Brien's. I realized as you walked in to the O'Brien's I was like oh yeah she's still living she's still living there she walks in goes to pray in front of a shrine and suddenly she hears a creepy voice going that's one like a computer voice kind of an altered voice it's but it's but it's very creepy it's yeah or a movie creepy yeah it says wait this is because she gets the announcement that she has an urgent message in the bedroom yeah yeah it interrupts her prayers yes yeah there's one message waiting for you playback

said she says and the voice says that's one and it's got a picture of laytha who just died that's one that's one and she says replay audio that's one but it doesn't actually sound like that's one it almost sounds like foreign language at first the first time you can you impersonate it no i cannot okay just checking i can that's one that's one that's one that's on that's one oh my gosh we're insane okay let's keep going that that was good Nana, that was it. It was your voice. So that's why it was her voice.

That's like a game. Yeah. All right. We go in the security office after the opening credits and they're filling in Cisco, Odo and Kira filling in Cisco. Odo thinks that this means that they're going to go after more former members of the Shikar resistance. So that's what Odo thinks.

And he wants to increase security on the station because Kira's here. And she was part of that. cell and Kira does mention in the scene that she's contacted most of the surviving members and warned them about what happened to Lathus. I did like at the end of this scene, Kira says he died serving the prophets, they'll take care of him. And Cisco, Sisko agrees. He says, I'm sure they will. So it's kind of showing his spiritual connection as the emissary. A little more acceptance from him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice scene. Nice close-ups. Mike Vahar did a great job. Just elegant. So did you, Nana. And Nana did too. Yes.

Just see. And I did think that Renee, I noticed a different kind of Odo in this episode generally, but even in this first scene, you know, sometimes there, Renee would be, um, he could be, not performative, but. Reactive. Reactive. Yes. Yes. Yes. And here he was all, he was observing. Yeah.

Kira. He was observing and frilking about what to do. It was beautiful. I agree. It felt like he had more compassion. Yeah, it was great. Great scene. We go down to the Replomat.

My first note here, Mike Vehart shoots good close-ups. The close-ups were closer than we're used to on DS-9. nine. The ECUs. Yeah, haircut close-ups. Like in really tight here. This is Miles. Kira's sitting in the Repliment.

Miles comes in to check on her. But the close-ups on both of you were just beautiful. Great scene. She says basically in the scene, she wants to be helping. She wants to get out there, like the old days, with this resistance group and try to help solve this. And Miles says, you are helping. You're protecting someone.

You're protecting the baby that you're carrying. So a reminder of that connection. Which has to be frustrating, too, because it is a mission for sure. But her gut is about getting out there and being active. It's not to sit still and take care of in that way. It's a difficult energy, I think, for Kira. Yeah. When the character says, I'm a major in the,

but you're an army. It's like that's who I that's my purpose. Why am I not fulfilling my purpose to get out there and do what I'm supposed to do? And it's like, oh, but you're also a female protecting a child. That's the struggle, the work child thing. Rock and the hard place. Great scene. And we don't see the two of you, Miles and Kira, in scenes just the two of you often. I don't think. I mean, I feel like the. last one was when it was uncomfortable. Yeah. And then this.

It would have been nice if there was a little more healing in between instead of like, I don't want to invade your privacy now. It's like almost too far the other way around. Yes. Well, I guess the writers went, okay, now we got to back off that because that's going to get weird. So, you know, either we go for that or we back off. And it seemed like they backed off so that we could just get to an.

a normalcy. Like, why do we put our toe in that to begin with? Like I always say, I wish I'd had more scenes with Kako. Yes. Those are the scenes that are missing. 100%. So in the Replomat, great scene with Miles and Kira. At the end, though, Kira gets a call from Odo that there's an incoming message, another message, you know, the last message was, that's one. That's one. That was the other message. Now there's another message coming in, and they won't give either their name or location. She's got to come. So she heads up to ops. And now we go in ops and Otos there, Cisco's there, Miles came with her.

They're trying to trace this call, but it's being scrambled. And Kira goes to answer it at a console, and it's an old friend. It's Trenton Fala. But she's very scared. And Kira says, it tells the team, you know what, I know this person, she is definitely not a threat. I'm going to go talk to her privately, so she goes off to a corner. And Fala basically says she's terrified that she's going to be killed. And Kira promises to protect her.

And Kira says, I'll send Worf and Dax to bring her back to DS9. So Fala is extremely sketched out. It's very squirly, very afraid. And it's basically Kira, who says, says, hey, you're going to be okay because you're going to wait it out with me on the station. I'll protect you because Fala did say to Kira, you promised you'd help me. You promised. And we don't really know her connection at this point.

We just assume that she is a Shakar resistance rebel, but we don't know exactly what the deal is. And Kira even says, by the way, I'm going to send someone to pick you up. It's going to be two of our officers, Warf and Jidzia Dax. And they're going to come and get you. don't worry about it. Everything will be fine. Nanad, did you ever meet this actress? Because I know you shoot, you film these separately.

No. Never did. She was wonderful. She was so good. And you had chemistry, the two of you, on a screen, on a video call. Like, you felt like real friends. And it just makes it so much worse that I promise that she's going to be safe. Oh, totally.

That I feel such responsibility for her safety. It just makes the killing worse. Rondie Moore is so good. He knows how to really, right? Just twist it in you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, great scene. I loved that actress. I thought she was really so good. And, you know, so far, the guest stars in this episode, I was super impressed. Like, they just consistently are really, really good in this episode. We do jump to the runabout. And we do indeed see Jedzia Dax with Wharf. And then this crazy banner goes on about losing at Tongo,

not knowing the Captain Ramirez was a three-time Tongo champion. And this bickering started to remind me the bickering when they went to Riza. I'm like, not again, not these two. Stop it already. But evidently, yes, Dax owes almost two, not almost, a complete two bricks of latinum, which she doesn't even have the full amount. She wants to borrow it from Wharf.

Warf is absolutely not. So that she says, fine. I'll borrow it from Quark then. I love this scene. The romantic comedy of it was just totally on point. It was great. Yes. My favorite line is from Worf when he says,

I am a graduate of Starfleet Academy. I know many things. That's all he says. And I just love that so much. And also for Dax to get herself in a situation where she's done something, wrong. I always appreciate when women in TV shows back then could do something wrong and still be a leading actress. Yes, agreed. They get to the location where they're going to beam Fala aboard, and as they're starting to beam, there's a power surge in the buffer. Something's wrong.

And you see this image of Fala coming in, and all of a sudden she's writhing in pain, and the next thing you know, it fritzes out, it doesn't work. And she is a complete mess on ground and deceased obviously she's a pile of goo on the ground not even that brown goo yeah it's like bones and they and wharf and i were doing everything we could to try to make it work you did was she on set for that no no because no yeah it was all special effects yeah i did like the way that mike shot that filmed this beam in like he tied it into dacks in the foreground the beaming was the the visual effects was happening in the background. Yeah.

In the foreground with Michael. Yeah, in the foreground. Like, it was really, you know, integrated into the shots. It didn't feel like cut to a visual effects shot. It felt very three-dimensional. It's like watching a magic show when they cut away and you're like, come on. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

It did remind me a little of the Tuvix episode of Voyager, which is very controversial, by the way, where the transporter combined Nelix and Tuvok into one character. Oh, yes. Two Vicks. Two Vicks. I thought we were going to have a Tuvix situation here. But it was worse.

It was worse than that. Way worse. All right. We have a little bit of a passage of time. Now the runabout is docked at the station. We have Cisco there. Bashir is there. Kira is absolutely in the state of shock

and knowing that her friend is there. She's kind of going through the rubble and she finds Fala's earring. It's just a really just a bad situation. It's her body. Yes, her body rubble. Okay, I apologize. No, no. I mean, yeah.

When you said rubble, it's like, where do we go? We're off on a planet now. Sorry. It's body rubble. It's body rubble. It's body rubble. No, no, you picked up the earring. You picked up the earring?

I didn't catch that detail. Yes. Yes. Because that tracks with layers. later on when you explain the earrings from that battle. Oh, my God. There's a lot of foreshadowing in here. And it also brings the spirituality back into it.

And also a sense of, for me, it was the responsibility I felt. That's, you know, that tie between us. Right. Yeah. Odo has a theory that this was not accidental, that it was in fact a remot detonator. It's a device that's programmed to scramble the transporter beam during re-materialization. So that is a horrible device and it's device that's invented by the, typically used by Romulins, but sold on the black market. It's basically stuck into your skin while

you're sleeping from what are those things calling in, Robbie? There are the things that are constantly used over and over again. Oh, the Hunter Probes. Hunter Probes, yeah. Hunter Probs can inject those things into your neck as well. What is it, Robbie? That's going to be my band. My band name. Hunter Probe. Hunter Probe. It's a heavy metal band. Yeah.

No? It's actually really a good name. It's a good name for a band, isn't it? Yes. It was you and the other band members are all named Hunter. We do learn from Kira that Fala was a spy. She admits it in the scene that Fala cleaned the floors in a Cardassian Records office. She was a spy.

She was part of, you know, helped them out. And that we learned that Fala always felt like someone was going to come and take revenge. So a very vulnerable kind of friend of hers. Very brave. And Kira talks about how she was probably braver than anyone because she had to live with that fear every day. Yes.

Right. She's going into the bad guys territory. Well, she's the cleaning lady. She's there every day. And she was with the bad guys. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's horrible.

Okay. We go to the promenade. and Kira's headed towards the temple. And just before she goes through the temple doors, she hears a voice. It's that creepy. That's too. Let us do it.

That's too. That's dope. That's amazing. Do you remember those little toys where they had the weird little faces and they had the fluffy green or pink. Trolls. Trolls. Thank you.

Yeah. Came to my mind. Your voice sounded like you were a little troll. Well, you think they get special effects to my voice. No, they just asked me, would you do a creepy voice? That's good. Creepy voices, it's easy for me. Nice.

Well, she hears a voice all the way across the promenade. She turns, Quark pops up in Quark's bar, and he's got a pad. Yes, this is his residual scene. This is residual scene, yes. and he's got a pad and he admits well this pad that it was meant for you i don't know how i got it i accidentally must have activated it so he's covering for being the he's lying market thief that he is but it's another message it's a creepy message that's too we go to security office uh kira goes to talk to otto he wants a list of prominent members of the shakar resistance and then

suddenly his monitors Fritz. We hear that's three. That's three. It's another victim. Mobara. Is it Mobara or Mobara? I can't remember. Or is it Marlborough?

It's Moabra. Moabra. But Kira does know him. He's a teacher at a university. Odo messages the school right away to try to warn them or find out if he's okay. And Kira starts to get very mad in this scene. and this is Renee's empathy during this scene.

Beautiful. Beautiful. And I wrote down, again, great scene. The naturalism in the performance, your performance, Nana. Renee's performance is unusual for Star Trek in this era. You know, everything was often very heightened and theatrical. And I didn't feel that in this episode. I felt very grounded and very, it was natural.

in its best way. And I thought it was great. Nanah, can I hear you say it with the number three? That's three. That's three. Thank you. She takes deep dives on command. I'm going to say.

I didn't really prepare for that. So, you know, you have to take it. It was pretty good where I was. All right. We go to a corridor. Kira's headed back to her quarters. A security guard is escorting her. And this scene I noticed.

Mike Vehar followed you on a dolly down in the corridor. It wasn't a steady cam, you know, which I thought was interesting because often you'll do these walk-and-talks-down hallways on a steady-cam, but the dolly gives it a more locked-off feeling. It was just, it felt a little, it felt good in a kind of suspenseful way. I thought he did a lot of... Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. I was waiting to hear what the difference would be for you as a director. Steadicams are always going to have a bit of a float. They're going to a glidey feel. A glidey feel. This felt like locked down like someone was marching behind you. It's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, because it did have that feeling. Mm-hmm. Because later in the show, when they use a steady cam to follow her fighting her way back, it's like, it's really like upsetting. Yeah. So it's nice, like that's, I think, one of those. maybe he thought of that. Yeah.

It feels safe. Yes. Yeah. Well, she goes inside O'Brien's quarters, back to her room. The guard comes in first, checks out the room, looks safe, beckons her in. She says she's going to go lie down. She goes in the room. But as soon as the door is shut, she hears a thump outside.

Another noise. She takes a weapon out of her drawer. Under her drawer. How about that? There's silk. and then there's a weapon. She turns off the lights, steps out into the room,

but the guard is not anywhere to be seen. Great suspense beats here, I thought. And somebody moves. We, Keir says, don't move. And then we hear the voice says, hold it. And then she recognizes the voice. She's like, Farrell? And the voice says, Norese,

and the lights come on, and it's a friend. Two friends. Two friends, yeah. Yeah. And the guard, we realize, is down on the ground. Under Lupuzzo's heel. He's been knocked out. Yes.

They let him up and he says he'll wait outside so they can catch up. That guard, Robbie, to me, he looks like he's been in the background before as security and that maybe this time he got a line. That's what I thought. Yeah. And I was so excited for him. It looked like a stunt person. Because he looked like someone that you guys saw on a regular basis, right?

Well, Dennis Madelone. He had those hunky guys. Yeah, so maybe that's one of Dennis's crew. Who knows? It looked like Dennis's younger brother to me. Oh. I was like, is he family? Facial structure?

Yeah. Maybe. The blonde version. Yeah. Well, we realized that her friends got around a very complex security system, so they must be pretty good. They actually beamed in. That's how they got in.

Right to their room. That would take some know-how, because you shouldn't be able to just beam on. into deep space nine. No. Not when it's a security lock. Just anybody. No.

Mm-mm. Do you remember working with these actors, Nanah? I do. And I remember their warmth. Two gorgeous people. You seem like friends, the three of you. You seem legitimately like friends. That was their energy that they just came in with.

You know? Yeah. There are some actors who can come and go, oh, I'm intimidated by all of this. Or they go, I own this room. because I own what I'm doing and here I am. And those two were definitely the latter. This is my stage.

This is my, I belong here. Yeah, I liked the chemistry between the three of you. And the little things, like when they mentioned they've brought you some herbs and you open up the box, you know, and it's the bay leaves. And your response was like, oh, thank you. More herbs was very funny. It established that history that you guys have, these characters have. And the chemistry was great. And it also reminded me of like when someone brings you something from,

if you both lived in New York City and you know, you've got to bring cheesecake. Right. You know? And it's just this, this care that's so lovely that people can do. Yeah. It also brings us to Bejure and Homeworld. It's where she's from. It takes us back to where the occupation happened.

I saw Diane played the character for lunch the other day. Oh. The other day, the other month. How was that? Holy. She is Lupiza. She's that energy, that warmth and that owning where she is, owning everything around her.

It was lovely. It was really lovely to catch up. She's very cool. I love that you guys are still in time. That's awesome. Did you know her before this episode? I think this was the second time they guessed it. Right.

But they were that way the first time they guessed it. It's not like they got comfortable. They just are comfortable. You could see it. And it just made it so horrible that they died. I know. Just the way they died is horrible too. Yeah.

They do say to you, we want the name of who's doing this and we'll take care of it, which I thought was really, you know, It just showed how much they love you and they want to protect you. They want to give you herbs for the baby. They want to protect you from this killer, the serial killer. And help you because they understood you couldn't do it yourself. Right. And it was a real active love.

Yeah. So it's talk about darkness and light. Here it is. They are doing a loving thing by saying, we'll take him out. Don't worry. Yes. We'll kill him. Yes.

It's dark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very dark. And we're all like, yes, go kill him. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Because they're warm and loving and wonderful and on the side of Kira. But that's dark. Yeah. Yeah. They're willing to go into the dark to leave you in the light, is what it is, basically. From the person who thinks you're the darkness. Miles comes back to the quarters at the end of the scene. And they pull their guns out and pointed at Miles.

and Kira says, introduces them and says, we have house guests. He doesn't even have a line, though. That's what's so great. It's just his reaction, which is he gives good, good face there to react to all the craziness. We go to the captain's office next. We find out that Mubara is dead, so the professor at the school. It was a micro-explosive behind his ear, and I think it was a hunter micro-explosive. They brought up a hunter probe again.

How was it put there by the Hunter Probe while he's sleeping? So once again, that technology makes it. Dang, Hunter Probes. It's all over the place. But they're a good band. They are. I would buy that album. I would.

Yeah, they really get inside your head. They do. Some on stage, give it up for Hunter Probe. Odo and Cisco are trying to figure it out. Odo thinks this is personal to, Kira. Yes. And they're trying to send a message to Kira. She says, well, what's going to happen after they send the message? And they're going to kill me. And so, yeah, so this, this feels like it's just a ticking clock heading towards Kira and this serial killer is coming for her. I love the blocking in this

scene. Odo and Cisco are sort of talking. They're moving around. Mike Fahar did a great job. And then he walked them over into this two shot and you sort of rack focused off to ops. And it sort of handed off the scene to continue out in ops and tie those together in a beautiful way. I thought the blocking was great. We go out to ops. Nog is there. Nog is helping because he's from Starfleet Academy now and he's Starfleet, which I loved. And he has big lobes.

Yeah. He's got the big ears. So they're listening to the voice trying to figure out if they can somehow deduce whose voice this is. Nag is helping with his great hearing. Dax mentioned she never questions of Ferengi's hearing. At one point Nag says something and Kira goes, are you sure?

And she goes, oh, all right. Oh, all right. Never mind. It's a very funny reaction there. But Nag does figure out it's a composite of Kira's voice. And Kira is stunned by this news, Frozen, which I kind of liked this because suddenly in a lot of

alarm goes off. There's an explosion in O'Brien's quarters, but Kira is just frozen there still. Like normally you'd expect Kira to go running off to action and she's just, she doesn't yet, which I thought was great. To mention something about the writing again, the fact that it's my voice, the thing that's scaring me is within me. I think that's talking about darkness and light. That's also a very cool element. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Is it your subconscious?

Yeah. It's within me what I've done. Yeah. That's what you fear, what you are sometimes. That's the biggest thing. I want to also mention that when the explosion goes off and we discover that it's been in the O'Brien's quarters, here's a moment that could be really destroyed by an actor who didn't understand

the fact that we met with destruction and devastation, you know, on a daily basis in space and had to respond in a way that was compassionate but had us keep moving forward. And I thought you did that so well, Terry, because you knew Miles could be there. You knew what it could mean. And you were all business. It's like, this is what I do. This is what I checked. This is who I call.

Oh, it's crisis mode, right? Crisis mode, not panic mode. No, because you're not going to help. Exactly. Yeah. I look like it have panic mode, but I actually don't, which is, thank God, not how I respond. Yes, Kura is definitely in a state of shock. But once she gets her senses about her, she is gone like a jackrabbit straight to the O'Brien quarters.

We're going through the corridor. This is a steady cam shot. I was talking about, right? It's not safe. And Kira is just, when she knocks the guys out, I was like, yeah. I mean, she's pregnant. And she's just, you are remarkable. Every single person.

Ninja Kira. Yes. One after another, they're trying to stop her because if she opens the door, now she's going to vent everything out into space because it's, you know, basically. Including herself. Including herself. But I just love, yeah, just the camera work, everything. It's so so much suspense going on.

She beats the crap out of three. Is it three different people security people? They're all like coming up to her going, Major, you can't go in, you know. Then she collapses. When she gets to the door. Door, she collapses. She does. Yeah.

And we didn't know what's happening. I swear, I like had a little emotional recall on Braxton Hicks when that happened. It was like, oh, oh, that squeeze just knocks you down. No, no, you said you had just had your research. life baby a month or so before this and here you are doing stunts and fight scenes how do you remember the challenge of that or can i very very clearly remember the challenge of that and i remember that at the time in the 90s being pregnant was like oh you wanted to lose your job and it was a gift that they didn't fire me or didn't put me in the background so i was i thought if any

one pays for this it's not going to be the crew it's not going to be anybody but me and i put my everyone was so kind people were constantly trying to get me chairs i wouldn't take them it's like nope i'm going to stand because there's not going to be any difference between me being pregnant and not pregnant which was huge foolishness on my part and i you know it's not sustainable and i did damage to myself in all kinds of ways by not taking care, better care, and letting people take care of me. But I do remember how hard it was. And, you know, my baby was in the Tritler. So I was doing these scenes and then going back to Django, you know, and beating up the guards

and then going back to care for your child, your baby. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Brown bear, grizzly bear. Grisley bear. When Buster was out of school, he'd be there too, my first son as well. So it was, it was, uh, it was a lot. Yeah.

I do remember you being pregnant and earlier on than this part of it, but and draped across two directors chairs, the high ones. Right. There she is with her high heels on and her little baby belly and like, like, How dangerous. Oh, how about those heels and she's pregnant and she's. Yeah. Yeah.

Boom, boom, boom. Yeah. I'm now thinking about that Jean-Claude Van Damme commercial where his legs are doing splits on two trucks. And then not doing that on two directors chairs. Yes. Yes. That's, that's, well, you're in remarkable shape. Period.

Kira beats up all the guards while she's carrying a baby and then she passes out. And she faints on the floor. You fainted very well, by the way. Not everybody can do that. Yes, you did. You've passed out very well. Because she fainted with suspense. Because the thing is, that door, the button was right still there.

So she goes to her knee first. You're thinking, she's still going to open it. She's still going to. And then she looks. And you even kind of look at the button for a second. And then you pass out. So it was like, you almost. I just knew she couldn't open the door because she wouldn't be on the show next week.

She'd get sucked out into space. I felt safe. Very logical. I felt safe. Although we could keep cutting back to. Akira out in space. God, and that's what you would look like. That's four.

Where'd she go? Oh, there she is. No, no. Now that's dark. She would be in space going. That is dark. That's space. That space.

Or open the door. Open the hatch. Something like that. Number five. She passes out, which takes us to maybe my favorite scene in this episode in the infirmary. I wrote at the top of my notes, great shop making, great performances, great writing. This scene is so good. Bashir's standing over Kira.

She's on the biobed. Tells her that Lupiza and Farrell are dead. And Odo arrives. Beautiful tableaus. Beautiful lighting. Simple staging, but just elegant. So good. Is this the one that opens with her alone and Bashir and that's sort of really darklit?

Yes. It's very dark. Yes. Except for kind of a spotlight on the two of them. Yeah, that was gorgeous. Beautiful. Right. Odo comes in, Bashir goes to wait outside.

Kira tells Odo how she met them, how she joined the resistance when she was very young. Long speeches for you in this episode, Nanah. This is one of the first ones. But this is where Mike Vahar kept the camera way back and just slowly pushed in during a very long monologue from a big wide shot of the whole room. And you guys were small in the frame, pushing all the way into a very, close up with the tears you mentioned before. Not easy to do as an actor or for the camera that dolly grips. Everybody's got to be working together. Which was thrilling. That was so fun to be creating with the camera. Yeah, it's bonding, right? Everyone had to do their job right.

Yeah. Not just me. Everybody had to. Yeah. A true collaboration. And when you guys pulled it off at the Yeah, and it must have been like high five time, literally. It was. It was. It really was. It was cool. Well, Kara tells us in this speech during this beautiful shot, tells us how she joined the resistance.

She was very young, how she fought in her first battle, and they won this battle, and how her earring, we learned, was made by Lupiza from the medal on this Cardassian skimmer that they had attacked. It's also Lupazza who stuck up, for Kira when she was a teenager. So you now know the bonding, yeah, the bonding was almost like this was her older sister in a way, right? So this is, you feel more for the two that have just been taken out by whoever it may be at this point.

We don't know. But it's a very effective monologue. Beautiful story. Yeah, really well done. Everything. You hit all the points. How was your experience doing this, shooting this scene, other than the first? fact that you guys nailed everything perfectly. Any other notes or any other comments?

Again, it was that feeling of needing to go beyond what I thought I could do to get it right because you not only did I feel a sense of responsibility to the very difficult move that the camera operators were doing and the camera focus pull. But the writing. that told the story. And then I feel the responsibility to every 13-year-old who has ever lived who has fought for their people. And so there's all this sense of, I've got two minutes to do them justice. You did.

You really did. It really did. Beautifully done. Yeah. You took that responsibility on. and you accomplished it out in the stratosphere. Perfection. Do you remember if I don't have a real script in front of me,

but there were tears at the end of this story. Do you remember, was that scripted? Was that a conversation you have with the director? Was that just? It was a conversation with the director. Yeah. And when it should happen. So that, and with the camera guys,

we won't be close in enough so it's right we are on this line we are here that's when it can happen so and and of course i didn't want to uh be weeping because that didn't feel right either that would have been a sense of um self indulgence maybe yeah self pity and it wasn't that it was just you know when when your eyes tear and and you can't control it it's just happening so that that was that was another thing to hit yeah i wonder if you did a lot of takes of this i would guess not to be no one no i think we did like two takes yeah i think it was very very limited and that was part of the excitement yeah it was either the first take or the second take We didn't do a lot.

Oh, and it must have taken a long time to set up. Oh, it did. It did. It did. I remember the cameras being above. It was like they were coming down toward me. Kira wants to know from Odo if he has any suspects at the end of the scene. He says, well, I've narrowed it down to about 25 names, but he won't share the names with her yet.

She wants to know. He says, no. And she says, oh, yeah, probably because I would charge right. after them and he says yeah you probably would yeah something like that yeah so he says i'll keep you informed just relax and rest and he leaves the room and suddenly kira jumps up goes over the computer requests an emergency transport and gives her code and where is she going well we cut to the security office and she beams in ahead of odo goes to his computer puts some information download some names and onto a pad and then transports out. And again, Mike integrated this beaming out just as

Odo comes in the door. So it wasn't cut to the visual effect shot, cut to the story. It was all tied together. Yeah. He just comes around the corner. Yeah. Comes around the corner and just misses her. We know that, but he comes in and suddenly looks at the chair, which is facing the wrong way. Yeah. That detail. That chair's not the way that I leave it. And he asked the computer to locate Kira. Computer says she's not on the station. Uh-oh.

I just want to say with the prior scene with Odo, it really showed the relationship of Kira and Odo of how close they are. Because when he, you know, when she says, can I see it, the list? just the way he says it's so he lets her down so gently he's like not just yet I'd like to narrow it a little I mean because he already knew

if he showed her that list she'd be gone so I just again I just love of how Odo and Kira's relationship has developed over these years and you can definitely see how close and how much he cares for Kira

in that prior scene yeah this episode is a big leap forward I think in that and kind of feeling that not just talking about it No. There's a film quality. It's palpable.

To this show. Yeah. Because of how realistic and you really get it. Kira beams out of security. Odo can't find her on the station. We cut into a runabout and she's getting a weapon and a tricorder out of the locker on this runabout. I'd never seen that before. That was like, oh, I guess I've missed a few episodes.

I didn't know that's where they hid them. She's arming up. put them. She is arming up. In the captain's office, really tight close-ups here, panning around as they move, which is not easy to do for focus pullers and all those people. But Mike Vahar with his super close-ups did a great job. Odo says that Kira erased all the names from his computer, so they don't even know where

to look for it right now. And Cisco tells Worf to prepare the defiant. But Worf, they're going to follow the ion trail. Worf says, well, she may be hiding the ion trail. And Cisco really snaps at Worf. Did you notice that? Yes. Oh, yes.

And did you see Odo's reaction to it? Like, that was unnecessary. Okay, so off they go to take the defiant and try to save Kira. We have a shot in space at the runabout with Kira Norese's personal log where she says, I've eliminated three of the suspects from Odo's list. I'm satisfied that none of them could have committed the murders. The fourth name is Salarin Pryn, a Cardassian living on a planet near the DMZ. Demilitarized zone, right?

Yes. That's not good. That can't be good. And then we see a shot of this, like, it looks like a trailer. It's like he's living in a trailer. Yeah. You're kind of cool. It looks very elevated sci-fi.

It looks a lot like at the beginning of Picard where Patrick Stewart goes to find Michelle Hurd's character, Rafi. She's living in the desert in a trailer, just like that. Really? It's probably the same trailer. I forgot. That's funny. It looks like it.

Kara beams into this trailer. She starts scanning. It's kind of creepy. Get out. What are you doing in there? It's a horror movie. It feels like we're in a horror movie. It's a horror movie.

It's true. Without the scary music. Right. I kept having visions of the movie. that sort of like serial killer suspense like the way that Salarine started talking in like the third person and also that whole thing where that's focused on her but everything around Kira is darkness yeah right she's in the light she is in the light the entire episode she's surrounded by darkness yes that is also the magic of this director yeah And I think it's really interesting that Rondy Moore used the third person because that's a really great way to separate yourself from doing harm. It's just seeing somebody as an it, not an entity anymore. It scrums.

It's scared. There's a disconnect. There's no compassion. Also, kudos to our friend Jonathan West. Beautiful. Beautiful item. As I was saying that, it's just, wow, we haven't mentioned him, but really great work on his part. Yes, agreed. And this actor, he is wonderful. He is wonderful. And this whole scene is a long scene. It's like a one-act play. This one scene is almost like a one-act play. It just goes on and on. We get a lot of backstory. So when she first arrives, lots of thriller, you know, suspense shots. She turns around, sees him there, shoots at the figure Salarine, but it's not him.

It's a hologram. It goes right through. And then he shoots from the darkness and takes her out. It must have been set on stun. Knocks her out, stuns her. Then he picks her up, puts her on a bed with a bright light, turns on a kind of force field around her to hold her on the bed and wakes her up. And yeah, he's talking to third. person creeping around through the shadows.

We get a good look at his scar. Yes. It's like his skin boiled. It's so awful. Well done, Michael Westmore. You draw him out with your kind of confidence and you're not panicking. You're very much at ease there. But you could still feel her urgency to get this taken care of that her, she's riding on the edge of imminent death with this man.

Mm-hmm. Right? and she has to protect the baby. Well, the baby is the only thing that can possibly save her until he says about she's the darkness and the baby is the light and he's going to save the baby. And it's like, I'm thinking, wow, it's just a couple of weeks. Can't you just keep her there hostage for a couple of weeks? That gives her more time to get out. Yeah.

It's a very dense, complicated scene. I remember how difficult to still have the hormones of having a baby, just having had a baby, and to speak about being cut open, about fear for a baby's life. It was very intense. I bet it was very intense. And to be victimized, to be held like that. It was a difficult time. I bet it was a very difficult scene.

How was it for you to try to, you know, shake that off as an actor? I wasn't good at it back then. I've since really found that you need a protocol to get out of that. Because as we all know, you put yourself in that place and your body is blind to the fact that it's storytelling. We believe our stories. So, you know, my body was traumatized. by what I was doing. And I wasn't good at getting out of it back then.

It starts to become part of your personality. It does. When you're in that, you don't know how to shake it off. If you don't know how to step out, it definitely does. Because then your body tells your brain, first your brain tells your body, we are not safe. And then your body reaffirms that to your brain. And now you're in a cycle.

Now you're in a cycle. Of being emotionally stretched. way too thin. Yeah. And then you're in that the vagus nerve that gets, and your amygdala kind of goes on like, oh my gosh, we're fight or flight, fight or flight every day. We do learn in this scene that Salarin was a servant for a high-ranking Cardassian,

Golperok, and that Salarine cleaned uniforms for Gold Parach at his home. And we learned that Kira and these fighters, they bombed his home basically, snuck in, planted a bomb right outside his bedside bedroom window. And they didn't just kill Gulparok. They killed lots of people, indiscriminate killing, he says. Twelve Cardassians killed, 23 crippled, a lot of destruction and death. Yeah. And that's where he was wounded.

That's where he got all of these scars, these horrible scars. And she also says, though, this was during the occupation. You came to our planet. You took all of our, like our food, our resources. So it didn't matter who you were. You were still not supposed to be on our planet, period. Right? You're in the military.

It's interesting because Duet looked at a man who was innocent, but was serving Kardashians, who, felt an overwhelming guilt for not speaking up for knowing what was going on and even though he didn't do any damage he felt the responsibility for his people and here we have someone who worked for a cardassian another cardassian who felt the bitterness only and and didn't feel what harris eulen did in duet the bitterness of those herbs you were forced to take. Seriously, but that's like how it all kind of, yeah.

Well, there's a real philosophical debate in this scene or debate or conversation about who's innocent and who's guilty, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And it just kind of depends on what side you're looking at it from, you know, from Kira's side, they were innocent and they were just fighting to protect themselves. And from his side, he's, I clean uniforms.

Like, I'm innocent. Why'd you kill me? Why'd you kill the family? So, yeah, a great philosophical debate about guilt and innocence, about darkness and light. And actually what it's about is the gray in between. I think Ron really in this, Ron Moore, really made it short to show everyone that there's accusations being thrown and valid points on both sides. So how do you vacillate back and forth to say, who is right in this situation?

Because in reality, they're both kind of right and they're both kind of wrong at the same time. So it's such a dilemma. And he totally gets to me. I saw Kira reacting. Okay. With fury. And I don't think it was all from self-righteousness.

I think it was, yeah, I've got to protect myself from these thoughts, too. and and I know I know yeah you're in survival mode yes I also feel like the you know you're kind of comatose at the very end of this thing where you're just sitting there and everyone shows up you know to save you and you're sitting next to the dead Kordassian and I feel like you're so shaken by this you know everything that you almost died but also the philosophical the ethics behind it the morals the argument you're in completely shut down mode where you're like oh my god you're questioning your own beliefs in that point in a way yeah it's just such a moving episode and so many things to think about what does she say about innocence sometimes innocence is just an excuse for the guilty and

sometimes you know you say hey it's not me i didn't participate in that well you didn't participate. Does that make you guilty? Maybe it does. But were you complicit? There's that kind of guilt as well. And also I think she's talking about herself. It's this dark place of realizing, yeah, I call myself a freedom fighter. He called me a terrorist and living with that gray area. Yeah. And sometimes we don't have the perspective until years go by to look back at our behavior. and say, oh, now I see it from the other person's point of view. I thought I was right. And I thought so hard.

And I wish I would have been a little bit slower. I mean, this is different because it's a fight. But still, being able to see the complete picture many times when you're acting on emotion and the drive and the collective energy around you, a lot of times you don't have time to, it's hard to take the time to sit with yourself to have a bigger picture. If you're acting on fear and feelings, it's not on logic. And here she's looking at his face. She's looking at what she did.

This is the, you know, the lasting, what you were talking about, Robbie, that there is lasting damage. It's not just someone had to get killed. It's someone lives with this pain that you caused. Yeah. Yeah, I think the title of this darkness and light is such a perfect title because, and Kara sort of learns it at the end that both things can be true for all of us, that we can have both of these things. And in a way, I would argue it's not gray. It's actually darkness and it's light.

It's both things. It's not a blend of them. It's both separate things that we. have inside of us and to try to say, oh, well, my side is right and that side is wrong. No, we both have darkness and both sides of that argument have darkness and light. And to deny that, you know, that, no, we just have the light. We don't have any darkness. It's not true.

Right. For either side of that. That's what I was trying to say too. In the moment you feel like you're self-righteous. I'm right. I'm only in the light. I'm doing good. I can't see my darkness when I'm fighting for my light.

Yes. I almost wish they wouldn't have said anything else other than let her finish on this close-up of her. He wanted to protect the innocent and separate the darkness from the light, but he didn't realize the light only shines in the dark. And sometimes the line you've finished, innocence is just an excuse for the guilty. and I love how Ron Moore puts this encapsulates it so well. Such good writing. I like that. And we've kind of jumped around between these last two scenes, but she does.

Just to recap for everybody, he's going to cut the baby out because the baby's innocent. She says, give me some sedative at least. Show some compassion. Which he does. He shows compassion. He has some light in him. Right. But what he does not know that that baby is not.

Bajoran. It is a human baby which needs special. She says it though to him. She says, no, but I'm saying initially he doesn't know that. Then she begs him saying this is the reason why you can't do this. And then finally she says, just give me a sedative if this is going to have to happen. And that is the key because I think she realizes that, hey, I'm full of makara herbs. I'll be fine. And then that's when she pretends to knock out when he releases the force field. she does a quick kick to his chest, picks up a phaser, and takes him out. That's the end of cillory.

And she kills him. Yeah. And she's left with that as well. Yeah, she is. And when Sisko Bashir and Odo arrive, she's kind of numb here. And Bashir says the herbs counteracted the sedative that he gave her to sedate her.

And that's why she was able to pretend to sleep and take him out and it saved her life. And then she responds, you know, he was talking about all these metaphors in his kind of third person way of speaking. And I like that Kira in this scene starts to talk in metaphors. She kind of carries on what,

how he was speaking a moment before. Yes. That she's taken some of that, you know, in a good way, taken on some of that perspective and the lessons. of that. And she's speaking in metaphors, the way he was speaking a bit. I thought all of that worked together beautifully. It's great. After all these heavy conversations about philosophy and deep

thoughts and meaning, my lesson is always take your prescribed medication. You never know when it might save your life. Oh, I love it. Listen to your doctor. Take your herbs because it will save your life. What is yours, Terry? Mine was sometimes you have to live in the gray to see your part in something. Slow down. Be present. Nanah, do you have a lesson or theme? I'm there with Terry. I also love what Robbie said about there. Accepting both the black and white of ourselves. I think I go, darkness and light is easier to think because black and white, that kind of thinking, really eliminates you looking inward and going, what is my part? What do I need to accept?

What is my darkness? And what is my intended light? And how can I turn that darkness into something useful for the world and the people around me? So, yeah, definitely the self-examination of dark and light in us. that's important in order to find the light. Don't deny the darkness. Then you get self-righteous. My lesson for this episode, my theme, is when you decide to go on a revenge spree, bring back up.

I have two. My other lesson is never get in the way of a pregnant mother. Well, that's true. That is true. I would definitely say yes to that. What is our Patreon poll winner for theme slash more of this episode? It is submitted by Andrew Cano. violence begets both more violence and many victims.

True. All right, everyone. Please join us next time when we will be reviewing and discussing the episode The Begotten. And that will be with Armin. So stay tuned for that. And thank you again, Tara Fair, for joining Robbie and I. And, of course, the wonderful Nana. Thank you, Nana.

Huge pleasure. Thanks, guys. For love our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material. Thank you.