The Delta Flyers - The Die is Cast

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, The Die is Cast, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell.The Die is Cast: Garak finds his loyalties torn when Enabran Tain, his former mentor, orders him to interrogate Odo; the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order join forces to attack the Dominion.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Tom Paynter, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, Nicole Toma, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Tim Neumark, Randy Hawke, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, & Sean T.Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Michelle Z, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Kevin Harlow, Megan Doyle, Chris Garis, Keir Newton, Cindy Woodford, Mariette Karr, Jeff Allen, & Tamara EvansAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Carl Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Shanyn Behn, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Carmen Puente-Garza, Eddie Dawson, Klee Wiggins, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Robert Allen Stiffler, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Karen Galleski, Nicole Brettell, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Timothy McMichens, Helen Brownrigg, Lindsay Bundy, Dawn Colleen Smith, Cassandra Girard, Robby Hill, Andrea Wilson, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, James Poesl, Daniel Chu, Scott Bowling, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Shawn Battershall, & Natalie SwainThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Due to some technical difficulties during our recording, the audio for this podcast episode is not up to our usual standard. We apologize for the inconvenience. Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. join us as we navigate through episodes of Star Trek D-Space 9. Your host today are my fellow Trek actors, Garrett Wong, Robert Duncan McNeil, and of course myself, Terry Farrell. For the complete and exciting version of this podcast that you will never get anywhere else but on patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers, sign up and get all kinds of cool stuff. You're going to love it. Check it out. Patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers. oh i like how you said that yeah i'm i love that i kind of wanted to join today i was that's a really

good sell well he had that awesome little extra bit he goes that you will never get anywhere else is what robbie did so that helps yeah oh my gosh feeling a little frisky today you really are my goodness what's going on with everybody what's the latest news in your lives Well, I just got done five months of shooting a show up in Vancouver, so I'm back home. Tara Farrant's, what's happening? Well, the Portaul is going up. The Kiva fireplace is all, it's all ready to be, I don't know what they do. Stuckoed or?

Yeah, stuck out. It's all ready to be stuckoed. And right now they are doing the lathing. Oh. That's when they put the wire up and there's some other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that what that's called?

Lathing? Yeah. I love that. I know. I know. Doesn't it sound cool? Yes. It actually looks kind of dangerous because it's that sharp, silvery, wiry metal.

Yeah. So I have been doing landscaping. I've been moving rocks around in my backyard and doing retaining walls with the rocks. Nana said, oh, my God, you're going to be in an incredible shape. But I don't know about that, but it does burn calories for sure. It definitely does. Landscaping is so hard, you know. I always go out and I think, oh, I'm just going to do a little thing here.

And then six hours later, I'm like sweaty and dirty. And, you know, it's easy. And you see like six other things. You're like, I got to move those rocks and that thing. And yeah, I do the same thing. Yeah. So I did an hour before we started. And I'm still, good thing you're not nice to me.

I just washed my face and put a little makeup on, but... Are you still schvitzing? Right now, schvitzing? No, no, because it's nice and cool right now. But when I go back out, it's going to be 70, so that hot sun not be so much fun. It is springtime for you. That's great. Yeah, we had snow three days ago, though.

Oh, wow. Yeah, we had snow a few days ago when we first got back. I was so happy because I had a day off. I was like, yay, it's snowing all day. Yeah. What about you, Garrett? I'll let you guys know, I just got back from Toronto where the Canadian Championship cheer competition was happening. That's like the national. Yeah. That must have been amazing.

I have never been to any type of cheer competition. And what I'm going to tell you guys is this. It's like going to a Star Trek convention or a Comic-Con, but everyone is cosplaying as a cheerleader. That's what it is. Like there's just, oh my God, seven thousand. I've seen it on TV, but I've never seen it in person. Yes, 7,000 athletes were at this at this Niagara Falls. Sorry, I said the wrong thing. Yes, they are. I said Toronto. We flew to Toronto, but then we drove an hour and a half to Niagara Falls. So it was at Niagara Falls, which is gorgeous if you have not been to Niagara Falls, especially the Canadian side. Have they cleaned the town up? Because there's two size. There's Niagara Falls, New York and Niagara Falls, Ontario. And so which side are you asking about? I would, I don't know. know about the i was working in toronto when we drove down to niagara falls there were a lot of like haunted things to go in haunted like you go in and you they scare you and stuff like that well this is years ago when i was with doris roberts oh yes you're talking about that little

strip that has a bunch of like um yeah haunted houses and stops stores arcades yeah well no they didn't I don't know if it's run, I don't think it's run down. I think they did a remake or remodel because everything looks pretty new to me, actually. Oh, good. Yeah. So that was fun. Did you do the, the mist thing? We went under beneath the falls.

Yes. That was insane. Isn't that cool? The maids of the mist, the boat ride? Yes, yes, yes, yes. They don't open that until May. So that was not available. But did you get to go through some of the tunnels and see the water coming down?

We did. We went behind the falls. behind the falls tour and it was amazing um the niagara falls it is yeah the park commission or whatever it's it's a brand new building everything they put down there's brand new the um even the bathrooms i i complimented the employees i was like this is this is the best government bathroom i've ever seen in my life i mean literally so clean i said this is like a bathroom in the american airlines lounge at uh at some airport so well done well appointed clean so get there now while it's super clean everybody the niagara falls ontario side uh yes so keely did did uh had a blast there her team

was level one um the perfect storm typhoons was the name of the team and so they came in fifth out of eight uh teams so they you know they were in the middle they were in the middle they didn't come in last that's yeah middle ish exactly and she competed that's amazing she competed we got to see other teams that were at the top level and it's truly amazing the acrobatic and everything that's involved when they're doing these pyramids it's just, it's out of control. I mean, you know that they put in

thousands and thousands of hours to master a routine that lasts for two and a half minutes. That's it. So thousands of hours to do these crazy flips and everything and truly impressive. And really, it's the only sports performance

where when I watched a couple of the really, really good teams with perfect zero flaws, I felt emotional. Like I almost started tearing up over it And I've never felt that with any football game or with anything else that I watch, hockey game. But with gymnastics.

The Olympics. Oh, the Olympics. The Olympics make the cheer up. Yes. But it's maybe because they put so much time into it. You know what I'm saying? That's that I felt for them as well. Yes.

And you really understand because your daughter is involved. So you see what she goes through. So you can just imagine what everybody else. Yes. Yeah. It gets more and more intense. The older they get. Yep.

All right. Well, speaking of cheer. Leading, let's cheer for some birthdays. Yes. Let's do it. Do you like my segue? I love it. That was super good.

Thank you. I'm impressed. All right. I know you guys aren't big on segway, so this is huge. Yeah, it's big. That was an actual segue. All right. First, we're going to cheer for Nick Russell on April 15th.

That's Nick's birthday. Happy birthday, Nick. Happy birthday, Nick. Nick Russell, my good friend. Happy birthday. Next up, we have Farosa Meta. on April 15th as well. Happy birthday for Rosa.

Happy birthday for Rosa. Happy birthday for Rosa. And the next birthday is Nikki T. on April 18th. Happy, happy birthday, Nikki. Happy birthday, Nikki T. Happy birthday to Nikki T. in the Pacific Northwest. Okay, and our last birthday this week is for Stephanie Aves. Stephanie, it's your birthday on April 20th, so happy birthday, Stephanie.

Happy birthday. Stephanie. Happy birthday, Stephanie. We apologize for butchering your last name if we did. But happy, happy birthday. April 20th was a fabulous day because Stephanie was born. Great. We also want to welcome our new prophet. Who's our new prophet? Our new prophet is Chris Garris. So welcome to Chris as a new prophet. Yay. Yay. Wow. Welcome, Chris. Welcome Chris. All right. Okay, let's jump right into poetry synopsis. Come on, Robbie.

Let's hear that beautiful limerick. All right. Time for a poem for The Die is Cast. Here we go. Garrick seems to have rejoined the dark side. When he tortured Odo, I was pretty horrified. The defiance saves the day. Garrick and Odo get away.

A new friendship for them both is the upside. Oh. I love it. Tight. I love it. I don't even look at the notes. I just hear it fresh by just hearing Robbie say it. I don't want to even.

You don't want to read it ahead of time. I don't want to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it for myself because they're usually so good that I'm very excited. You read this ahead of time? I didn't read it ahead of time. I don't even watch the episode ahead of time. Robbie's just wing it. He's just winging it the whole time.

We are. That's the joy of podcasting. All right, here we go with my haiku for the die is cast. Tal order team up. Invasion force is ambushed. Sneaky changeling spy. There we go. Nice.

I like that one. Me too. Okay. Let's go through our guest stars and our co-star. We have... Okay, then. Yeah, we have Andrew Robinson is Garrick, of course. we have Leland Orser as Colonel Lovac.

And if you recall, Leland has worked on Voyager as well. He's worked on a lot of different sci-fi projects. We have also Kenneth Marshall as Michael Eddington. That's the Starfleet officer who ends up doing a little sabotage action in this episode. And he continues to guest star as that character throughout DS9, at least for a few more seasons, it seems. he has a master's of drama from University of Michigan but then he went on to Juilliard

where Robbie was also at Juilliard Leon Russum as Vice Admiral Toddman Remember him? I like him, Tomlin Yeah, I like Toddman. Okay, which one was Tompman? He's the guy on the screen. Yeah, he's like, don't take that defiant. Oh, yes, I like him too. Don't take it to find. Oh, Leon Russum, he's a really good actor. He's done lots of stuff. He has many, many credits. We also have

Paul Dooley as Anabrin Tain. We already spoke about Paul in a prior episode. And let's talk about our final person, which is our only co-star, and that is Wendy Schenker as Romulan Pilot. Do you remember

her? She was good. Yeah, she was actually very good. Speaking of pilots, Dax was pretty awesome in this episode, piloting the Defiant. I have to say, Thank you.

Unbelievable piloting there. To have Paris be impressed by Dax, it means a whole lot to me. It was still the ills right now. Unbelievable. Silly, but I was so excited about being the pilot of the Defiant. Isn't it weird how sometimes character traits? You're just so, it's like it's never going to happen for me. I'm not going to, oh, Blue Angels, I would blow up.

I'd never be able to deal with the G-Force. But oh, my goodness. Yes. Yes. And especially like in a battle scene like that. Yeah. Against the Gem Hadar, you just nailed it. So good.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. We have a director, yes, of this episode, which is none other than David Livingston. Yes. David Livingston. Ron Moore was the writer, Ronald D. Moore. And this is actually very good job.

Love Ron Moore. We all love him. This is the very first, very first episode. where Ira Stephen Bear is listed as executive producer. Yeah, congratulations, Ira. This is the transition where I think Ira takes over the reins completely. And what a great episode to do it. Oh, yes, agree.

Such a blast this episode. Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. All right, it's trivia time, if you guys don't mind. Talk a little bit about this episode. So this episode, along with Improbable Cause, we already talked about how this is the, only two-part series where they're not named the same name, right?

Improbable Cause is the first episode, the Dias Cast of the second. But in England, they aired both of them together as a feature-length TV movie. Oh, wow. It's what they did in the UK. Yeah. That's awesome. Super awesome. There are many, many references to ancient Roman dictator Julius Caesar in this episode.

The title, the Dias cast, is taken from words reportedly spoken by Caesar in 49 BC. as he led a legion of troops across the Rubicon. Now, this was kind of dicey because that was an illegal act that effectively ignited the great Roman civil war. So this was within Rome, this was the worst thing to possibly do. And Julius Caesar said, the die is cast. The minute he sent those troops across the Rubicon. Garrick also quotes Shakespeare's Julius Caesar to Tane.

In that quote, he says, I'm afraid the fault, dear Tain, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. So that comes from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Doesn't he say, though, that Bashir told him that once or something? Yes. Yes. He says it's a Bashir quote.

Yeah. But it's a Shakespeare quote. Yeah. Well, it's funny because Garrick and Dr. Bashir had discussed the play in the teaser of Improbable Cause. So in their intro episode, they talk about Julius Caesar, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. This is also the very final episode to show Cisco with clean-shaven facts. Yes. I guess he gets goate or some, the goatee action that we're so familiar with. And his hair's shorter, but he's not bald yet. He's not bald yet. Okay. Got it. But I said the next

episode started and I was like, yay. Avery's going to look like how he wanted to look to begin with. I had heard that he kind of did that on his own. Is that right, Terry, where he was like, I'm just growing it. If it's in the middle of the season, it seems like it was on his own. If it was the middle of the season. It must have been. So this episode was really a chance for the writers to remind the viewers that Garrick wasn't a typical good guy. So according to Iris Stephen Bear, he said, we wanted to show what he's capable of, even if he doesn't want to do it. Could you torture someone if you had to? Garrick can do it. So this was the episode to show people, this guy can mean business, you know?

And we do remember that one prior episode that we saw where it was. was the Cardassian that Nana lets go, the one-legged, right? And he says, let me give you one piece of advice before I leave. That one Cardassian on this station, the Taylor, never trust him. So they said that. And that guy says that in that prior episode talking about Garrick. And so there's this episode reminds me. He has a big heart in this episode, too.

He really does. He really does. It's very complex, the complexities of Odo and Garrick's relationship. Yes. are profound in this episode. It's an amazing episode. It's an amazing episode for Garrick and also for Odo for both actors. There is an unfilmed or deleted scene because it was scripted where Admiral Tobman is speaking to the Deep Space 9 crew.

Tobman mentions that he had bet two cases of Sorin Brandy on Bashir winning the Carrington Award, which was in the profit motive episode earlier in the year and that since Bashir lost, he also lost. He makes a comment, I don't like to lose. So this is a scene that was, yeah, deleted. Yeah, I can see why it was deleted because it doesn't feel like it, you know, reflects on this story. Not at all, no. It doesn't enhance it. Yeah, it doesn't enhance it.

It's too flippant in a way. I understand what they were going for, but I feel like they decided to lose it because it, you know. You can't waste time when your story telling is 42 minutes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. All right. So we start out in the repelette at the very beginning. And we have both Bashir and O'Brien sitting there. And Bashir, it's great. Bashir's going through all his thoughts about theater. 23rd century theater has been in decline. The current theater has been declined since the 23rd century. Nothing has been original. They've been obsessed with writing human interpretations of alien theater theatrical works. And so he's going through this whole thing. And O'Brien is stuffing his face.

He's just like, he's eating everything. And, you know, Bashir stops him. He's like, did you hear anything that he said? He's like, oh, I heard everything. So what do you think? About what? Any of it? He's like, well, I don't know.

So basically, Bashir is looking for that same intellectual verbal repartee that he has with Garrick. And he doesn't get that out of it. He misses that so much. He misses this deep conversations with Garrette. Eric. You know, my favorite, my favorite moment was when Miles just points at Bashir's plate, like, eat. And he hasn't touched the thing that I've been talking the whole time. And the other thing that I noticed. Yeah, he points in his plate. I love it. And then the other thing I thought of watching this is, you know, forks and spoons and things have been a very enduring invention. Like, it hasn't changed for hundreds of years. Yeah. They still have spoons. They still have forks. It just hit me in this scene.

It was like, oh, that feels very familiar. Are straws still being used? Do you see anyone drinking with the straw? I don't remember using straws. Ever. Okay. I don't either, except maybe on like a holodeck program, like if we went to a. Oh, like a retro thing in the 50s and a milkshake.

If we did that or maybe if we, when we went to like the lake, the resort holodeck, you know. Oh, yeah. I had, like, Pinacolados or something. Oh, they're talking about Voyager now, just. Yeah, sorry. I jumped. Following. Yes.

You're right. You're right on that. Well, this conversation gets interrupted by Kira. Kira is basically in ops, and she calls to. Calls Miles. O'Brien. Yeah. Time to come on up.

This is something we got to look at. We end up in ops. And sure enough, guess what? And there's Dax. We see. Oh, we do see Dax. Yes. Finally.

We have super high concentrations of tetrion particles. That's not good. No, because Dax says, I have never seen readings like these. What do you think? They're moving right towards the station. Why would these Tetra? Oh, my gosh. I'm nervous right now.

My stomach. I have butterflies right now. Wow. It was very. What's going on? Yeah, it's very obvious for sure. Suddenly a Romulan and a Cardassian ship decloak. And how cool that they look?

Didn't they look cool? Hundreds of them. A whole fleet. It was crazy. Actually, it wasn't hundreds. They said something like... Not yet. I forget how many.

That's at the end. Okay. I was going to say they had 20 ships, if that's correct. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But several say that. I'm looking. I don't...

I'm trying to see if they give a number, but they definitely... They give a number later. I know they give a long number later because they talk about... They have this number of ships and they're manned by... seasoned veteran soldiers or something. They say something like that later. So, Dak says definitely Cardassian, Keldon class, Benjamin, there's an entire fleet to cloaking out there.

What is a fleet? It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It was very impressive. Especially when you can't move away. Yes, very impressive. The station is just sitting there.

Yeah. Wait, I have a question and Garrett probably will know the answer to this. Are Romulans the only ones that have cloaking technology? Like, Kardashians can't cloak or? Starfleet can't cloak? I thought Klingons could cloak. But did they buy it from the Rom? I think they all bought the technology from the Romulan.

That might be. Well, the Defiant can cloak. Right. The Defiant got it from the Romulans. So then they're the ones with the, what is it called? The cloak. The patent. They have the patent.

They have the trademark. They have the trademark. Mark? Romulan cloaking vice. TM, a little TM right next to a portrayed mark. But to answer your question, Robbie, other alien races such as the Klingons, yes, they have cloaking technology as well. They do, right?

Which they probably, maybe they got from stealing it from the Romulans or who knows, right? And then in this episode, the Cardassian ships also cloak as well. Yeah, so it was, they kind of were surprised, like Dax was surprised, they were all surprised that the Kardashians are decloaking too. Right. They don't even have technology. So I guess they're a clear sign they've teamed up with the Romulan. Yeah.

Yeah. The team up included giving them. We find out through this episode. Yeah. Yeah. And they go into the wormhole. That fleet just heads right past the station and goes into the wormhole. Yeah.

We couldn't stop them. Nope. They don't want to talk to us. Nope. No response to our hails. Yeah. Well, we go inside the Warbird's ready room. Garrick and Tain are there reminiscing

Garrick and Tane there. We learned that Garek was a very good interrogator. He used his eyes. I think Tane says something about you just sat there. What does he say for three hours or four? The interrogation was not an interrogation. He stared at him for four hours. And then that's when he...

Some poor soul. He broke. He could not look into Andy Robinson's eyes for more than four hours. No. He told Tane his eyes, his eyes. He kept saying his eyes. His eyes. They're so dreaming of those eyes.

Yes. Like Dracula. Tain also tells him in this scene, he says, you know, if we're successful in this mission, Garrick can eliminate anybody he wants. And Garrick does mention Gull Ducott. Yeah. So, yeah, that was titillating. That was titillating.

Feels like that's going to come up later on in another episode. Tane says he might eliminate. Mila, his housekeeper, who's kind of his loyal aid. And Garrick, you know, is not really happy with that. So we see this good side. We see the dangerous side of his eyes that he can interrogate people. But we also see that Garrick is standing up for the housekeeper and for this eliminating her because he says she's been super loyal. Yeah. So he has a heart. That's what we He still got a heart. He still has a heart. End of story. This is when the she are officer enters and this is uh this is leeland orser playing colonel i always want to say

tuvok but it's not it's lovok lovok is what it is it's close to tuvok but lovok colonel lovok shows up lovok shows up he tells garrick you cannot go anywhere you can't go on the bridge you can't go anywhere or you will be killed it's pretty direct about that but he's he says it's so vulcan like it's so yeah he does like if you do so you will be killed killed it's like so but but then again robulins are yes they're cousins of the vulcan so that makes sense that they talk similar as well yeah and the scene ends basically with tain telling garrick that he should go talk to odo and encourage odo to just give up any information he's got on the founders it'd be in his best interest everyone's best interest yeah so off we go to odo's quarters which by

the way, we go into the quarters where they're holding Odo. Is that the defiance quarters redressed? It looked just like it to me. Probably. It would have had to be on that set because it didn't, not on our two main stages. What do we have, four, 16, and 18, or 17 and 18? And 18 was Planet Hell and the Defiant and a swing set. Well, this looked like the Defiant Quarters redressed.

It had the bunk beds. maybe a little bigger than the defiance they probably took a wall out definitely a little bigger but it felt like the defiant quarters to me yeah Garrick comes in tells Odo that the founders are their common enemy basically and that he should help Garrick says you should help us tell us anything you know and Odo is very angry and very very combative I guess you'd say and Odo says no well yeah he's pissed off. Pissed off. Yeah. Yeah. Because Garrick's joined the dark side again. He's gone back to working with Tain. So Odo says our only common enemy is Tane. You just don't know it yet. So that's kind of how they end

this scene. Odo's not going to give me any information. Yeah. And also, Garrick asks him if he likes his quarters. And he's in a prison cell really, you know, it looks like a room. Yeah. He is not just in his quarters. He's not in like luxury quarters. He's in... There's a force field around the bulkheads. He's a luxury prison cell really. Well, it's regular quarters. It's just they put the force field around the bulkhead so that you can't get out.

That's the word I couldn't think of. Okay. Forse field. Thank you. If they have a force field, could Odo because he's a changeling get through a force field? No. No. Can't do it. It doesn't matter what he changes into. He can't go through the force field. It'll stop it. Nothing. Nothing.

Liquid gas, air. matter whatever it is he is matter it's not going to have yeah yeah true okay yeah all right um we go to the ward room next uh back to ds9 admiral toddman is there briefing the crew and eddington and eddington yeah i found it it it threw me a little bit that eddington was sitting in in uh the ward room with everybody else because we've seen him before but once or twice i think Yeah, but Odo's gone. So he's got to stand in for Odo. He's got to stand in, yeah. And I did read something about Eddington was created so that they had another Starfleet officer when Colomini was off doing a movie. That that was the original idea of Eddington. We'll bring on somebody who can kind of help us fill out, you know, scenes as a Starfleet.

Because we don't have enough actors that are right. Yes, exactly. But I guess it was Starfleet. Or reoccurring. Yes. But didn't he, didn't they cast him to replace the other Starfleet guy that was in DS9 to begin with, the sort of like, hey, I'm, I'm the sheriff in town guy. Remember him? That guy. Yeah, cowboy guy. Yeah, Cowboy Guy. Starfleet guy was here for a bit. And then Eddington replaced him. Yeah. I remember Cowboy guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was not fit, really, not a good fit. No, he didn't. I thought he was fine. Odo. Odo. was no he was a fine actor he just sounded like a cowboy which always threw me so when I saw Eddington in the scene

it threw me a bit because he's there with all the series regulars right I did a little Google search and found out that he did quite a few more episodes after this he probably did I don't know eight or ten more episodes something like that right but from I saw a quote from Ira saying

that they wanted to bring him in because of Colomini's movie schedule they wanted to have somebody to kind of fill out the Starfleet ranks a little bit. So that made sense. In the ward room, they're there. Toddman's talking. Cisco decides after Toddman says, you know, we know what they're doing, but we're not going to get involved. You know, if they win, it's a win-win for us because we're not involved in this if it doesn't work. And if it does work, we're on the winning side. You know, the Dominion loses. So he just wants to stay out of it. And then Cisco says, you know,

there's going to be a bunch of Starfleet ships here tomorrow. Let's take the defiant to the Gamma Quadrant and try to get involved and fix this and save our people. But Tobin says no to that because he says that to when Tobin's on screen. He says, no, no, no. Your top priority is defending Bayjor, not going after your lost officer. Exactly. So when he hangs up, what does this go do?

I'm going to go take the device. I'm going to go after the end. I'm going to do it anyway. He's got a plan. I love it. I like this too. I like very much that Cisco talks about, you know, this is going to be a dangerous mission. You might not come home from it. You're going to have to volunteer for it. But don't tell me right now. Think about it. And if you want to join me, meet me on the defiant two hours. I love that. He does say. I really like that speech. You may not be coming home. So this is, these are high stakes involved. Yeah. Very high stakes. Well, you saw that fleet of. that's scary yes yeah twas and we also learn in this scene i forgot to mention at the top he talks about the gem hadar or genetically addicted to a drug that only the founders can provide which i've

never heard that before it's called white yeah this is news bobby no this is news for you it's not news for us we learned it already in the prior episode they were addicted to this drug yes it's called white catcher cell or whatever it is that right Terry yeah yeah yeah Well, I just remember being called White. And it's like a tube that they have. It's like feeding them all the time. Oh, my God. We talked about it.

Pretty crazy. The episode is, you know I don't remember anything. No, no, listen to me. I'm going to remind you. I'm going to jog your memory very easily. Jog my memory. Go. We find an infant who then slowly develops into a Gemha-Hadar.

That's he was going crazy until the doctor, Pashir, was able to replicate something similar to the drug to keep this kid from going bonkers. So, yeah, what do you know about it? Look, they tried to remind me in the episode. We know, we know, we know, we know. Finally, I remember. Oh, God. I did like, so we go to the Defiant next,

I did like this opening shot that starts with Dax coming in the door. Yeah. And almost pans 360 following everybody as they move along through the Defiant Bridge. And we reveal everybody has decided to monitor. volunteer which yeah of course we're starting to even eddington well yeah he's going to be trouble i'm not pleased about that no we're not eddington i did like the bit that they wrote into the scene where uh kira says uh you know admiral toddman's calling incoming message and cisco's like well that's what you think it says but how can you be it's so badly garbled

and distorted it. I don't know if that's true. And Kira gets it. She goes, you know, you're right. Yeah. That's cute. So an awful lot of subspace interference. Yeah.

Must be an ion storm or something. Yeah. It did feel like Eddington was showing his hand a bit in the shot because he was up in the foreground of the shot. And you kind of saw his face like very suspicious looking. Oh, really? I didn't catch that. I didn't track that.

I definitely tracked it. Obviously, the second time I watched it, when I watched it this morning, it was like, oh, it's standing out over and over and over. Like, they give us a little bit in the war room, too. Okay. There's just a weird, like, he has this secret relationship with the Admiral. Yeah. Yeah. Back to what Robbie was saying about the whole, how funny it was where Cisco's telling Nana, like, you didn't hear that.

And then you were talking about subspace interference just now, Terry, I feel like that next time I'm on a call where I've got a telemarketer talking to me. I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm getting so much subspace interference. I can't hear you. And I'll just hang up right there. It must be an ion storm. It must be an ion storm. And then I'll hang up. And that telemarketer, if they happen to be a Star Trek fan, they just use Star Trek terminology to hang up on me.

It's real. It's real. I like that idea. It's real. Star Trek is real. It's real. I knew it. I knew it. Oh, my goodness. Where are we? We go back to the warbird now.

We're on the bridge of the warbird, and we find out that their plan is to destroy the whole founder's planet with bombardments. They're going to take it out until they kill every founder that lives on this planet. To stop the Dominion and all the Gem Hadar, because the founders create the white, and that's where the Dominion gets their white. So if they kill the founders, then- Jim Hodar will die. We'll die.

Yeah. So that's their plan. They're going to do it. And then they do say unless the founders have defenses that we aren't aware of, which is one of those writerly things. I go, oh, of course they're going to have defenses because you just said it. Right. Exactly. But Tain says Garrick should go interrogate Odo.

And Odo insists that, you know, he put everything he knew in his report. I believe him. He's very thorough. He wouldn't have lied about that. So there's nothing. He doesn't have anything. And Tane says, well, we have an experimental device that can neutralize changelings. And so.

But it's a prototype. Yeah, it's a prototype. They've never tested it before, right? Until now, yes. But Garik says he'll do it. He changes his mind. He doesn't want anybody else going in there. and oh no they wanted to have who are their scary people the well they lovok no no no i mean

what are they called the basically their ss officers the cardassians they have that other so obsidian order is the cardassian version and talsiare is the chal right so the romulus they were saying that we'll send the telsch whatever that person yeah the tachiar and that person is lovok so that's Colonel, he's the head, tell she our agent. But we now know, after watching the entire episode, that that was not actually a Romulan, but a shakeshistor. So if... But here's the thing, though, that's what gets Garrick to go,

I am, it's my, he's, Odo's my prisoner. Yes, exactly. Because he has a heart and he doesn't want anyone else handling him. Exactly. But my point is, if you said Lovac, Lovac would have done nothing to harm Odo. because he is a changeling. So it wouldn't find either way. We don't know that exactly.

Okay. We go back to the Defiant Bridge next, I think, and there's a mystery power problem that decloaks them. Lights start flashing. They can't locate the source of the problem. They decloak. I can't locate it. No, Dax can't find it. And there's no ships.

Dax can't find any ships in the area. But if the Gem Hedar show up while they're decloaked, they are in big trouble. so yeah eddington actually fesses up really fast he's like yeah there's a problem you know with this and uh guess what um it's been sabotaged and then he goes well how do you know that because i did it it's just very quick and for someone who caused such harm and potential harm to the people inside the vessel i fully expected there would be a beat down of eddington and nothing happened to eddington eddington actually continues to be on the bridge because he did it because the admiral. It's a direct order from Starfleet. Yeah. So to me, it didn't feel, you know,

creepy or scary because he's just trying to do his job. He doesn't want to get fired. Well, he says, you know, if the Gem Hadar show up, you're going to need me. And he says, I give you my word, commander, that you can trust me. And Cisco responds, well, I have a policy to trust the word of anyone that wears a Starfleet uniform. And I wrote down, risky policy, Cisco. Just to trust everybody. Yeah.

But he also understands that he had the direct order. So it's a, he knows that Eddington's in a sticky situation here. Yeah. Yes. That's probably why he lets him off the hook. What else could he have broken, though? The cloak is probably the least of it.

It's better that he didn't, you know, sabotage the weapon. Yeah. Well, it does seem quick that Cisco puts him right back in the chair. It seems like he would have asked some of those questions. Like, did you sabotage anything else? Is there anything else I need to know? Well, he says that. Eddington fesses up because I didn't damage any of the ship's weapon systems or the engines. Yeah, he says that, right? Yeah. He does. Yeah. It just seemed quick, the whole thing. Which actually made me feel better about him. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, also remember Captain Sisko, sorry, Commander Sisko. knows what the ramifications would be for Eddington if he didn't follow it'd be worse for him eddington if he didn't follow the direct order from Starfleet it's a sticky situation it is sticky yeah okay we go back to the warbird we're in Odo's quarters again

Garrick comes in with two Romulins he's got a bucket and he's got a bunch of like Lego parts of a some device parts I loved watching and put this together. It was so cool, wasn't it? It was cool, but it was also my feeling that, okay, props did not have enough time to come up with a really cool device, so they just added all these other separate pieces together. This is something they already had?

I didn't think that. Really? You didn't think that? Oh, my gosh. No, I thought it was cool. You thought it was cool? Yeah, I thought it was cool. I thought it was cool, but I was like, why did they need to put this together?

It should already be assembled. Well, again, last second, Robbie, they were. were like, let's add. Also, it's a prototype. Oh, that's okay. Prototypes are the beginnings, right? I, I, can I just, here's my theory. Yes. The first part that was put down. No, no more

theory. The first part that was put down, David Livingston said, that's it? That's it? To props. And props says, oh, oh, we can add some more things on the side. And then that's what ended up happening. That's my detective. Probably. That's your story. It is, I believe it. That stuff would have

together entirely they wouldn't have to put it together it also builds up the dramatic tension i think like by having to assemble it so lego style okay fine i'll go lego on this all right i'll go i'll go lego on this i will defer to terry and i will say go my ego i'll i'll lego your ego yes okay well at least it lit up and stuff it yes it did it did it did garrick tells the guards to leave then he goes and turns on the device. Odo's very confident still at this point. Oh, yeah. But he turns on the device and tells him that you won't be able to change into anything.

You'll be stuck. You won't be able to regenerate. And I did like how Renee was sort of trying to stretch his arm or something. He couldn't do anything. Very 3D feeling, you know. Yeah. I'm sure David Livingston put like the super wide ones. Yes, 3D.

Raw. But, you know, he played it. he played it well because you could believe that he was actually shocked that he couldn't do it he was like oh my gosh you know this interaction this entire interaction between the two of them is genius so well written it's genius so well written so well acted so well directed it was just genius this whole thing yeah well garrick says he wants to know his secrets and garrick does say you know we don't know what's going to happen if you can't regenerate what will happen to a changeling if you can't get in the bucket and garrick says i'll just wait for you to reveal your secrets yeah that last

that last line otto says there's nothing to tell garrick says well perhaps something will come to you i can wait the question is can you that was the ending of that which is again the writing it's so good on this and even though you knew he was going to say can you yeah i mean i said it out loud too when i was right right it was still it was exactly what you would say. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, my goodness.

Eric did not tell him, you know, about his eyes, the power of his eyes. Thank you, Gary. Well, he was a master interrogator. Yes, he didn't want to. That sometimes Tane had to pull him off and calm him down. Yes, yes. What is that? For four hours just staring.

What is that song from the 70s? Those eyes. Isn't there a song like, Those eyes. Those eyes. Yeah. Oh, those eyes. But never going to sing a lot of love that I have for you. Oh, that's not it.

These eyes. Is that it? Yeah, these eyes. For you. These eyes, these arms long to call. I forgot all about that song. I love a little musical break. I do too.

We go back to the Defiant Bridge. Kira gets up, starts to head for the door. I love this whole scene. It's a short end scene, but she's, you know, Cisco's pacing behind her. She's kind of waiting. You can tell she's itching to get news on. She is antsy pants. Yeah, did O'Brien fix this?

You know, she's nervous. She gets up to check a mile. Cisco says, you know, he said, you know, it's been three hours. But if he needed help, he would ask for it now. The best thing we can do is just stay out of his way. She sits back down. He exits. It was a nice oner, the way that, the day.

David shot it. I liked it a lot. You know, oneers, to me, the best thing they're useful for is that you don't get the release of the tension of whatever the moment is in the scene. And David's great at these oneers where this is all about waiting and waiting and waiting. So there's no cuts. There's not a cutaway that sort of releases the tension of that waiting tone. You know, it was great. Wow, that's a really good point. Yeah, because we still are in, we're reminded that he's, O'Brien's still working on it. And Cisco gave him two hours.

Now it's been three hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was excellent. Nice little scene. All right. Now we're in Odo's quarters now, right? So we're back in Odo's quarters slash prison, and we get a look at Odo, who is looking

like he's literally, as the seconds are ticking by, he's slowly just drying up, like bits of him are just slaking off. Like a lizard or a snake losing its skin? What did it remind you that makeup reminded me of something so specifically? It's in my reaction video, but I will say it now, I guess. You can say it. You say yours. It reminded me of the Christmas, a Christmas carol.

It reminded me of the ghost, the ghost of Christmas past. It looked like one of those ghosts from a Christmas carol to me. Wow. I didn't I just that was so genius well earlier too that he Odo must have had a different forehead I'm sorry in the scene before this with the two of them he had like wrinkles in his eyebrows and I noticed it right away and that had to be a different piece oh interesting because he was already starting to dry up yeah no it was when no it was I think it was when it was first happening yeah the beginning of the drying up the beginning of the drying yes um and then he turned around in the scene and his forehead was normal again so i just you know god love him imagine what rene went through in this episode with his makeup and you know how much joy that brought him yes so that must have just been makeup yeah oh that must have been torture for him yeah great makeup

up. Odo is dying. Clearly, he's trying up and dying. Garrick feels horrible. You can tell. Garrick is. Yeah. Sorry. Begs Odo. Please tell me something, anything right now. Mm-hmm. And you don't need, it can be a lie. Just tell me something. Doesn't he even say that? Yeah. Yeah. He does. And that's where you see his heart. Okay. That's where you know he cares about Odo. Because he says, just please, make it up. Lie. It doesn't matter to me. I just need anything from you right now. because he's just trying to do his job because Anabert Tain is on his back about this, right? So, yeah.

Odo does finally admit at the end of the scene. One thing he's never told anybody, and that's that he wants to go home. He wants to be part of the Great Link. He wants to connect. And he says, I've tried to deny it, but I can't deny it any longer. So that was interesting revelation.

Yes. And I was so happy that that was when Garrick was like, that, okay, that's my information. Yeah, I'm putting you right in the bucket. shuts off the device and you see Odo go in the bucket you see the pieces that flaked off on the floor.

Wasn't that a great detail? Yeah. And then with Garrick with his head and his hands after that, it was just you could imagine how much he just almost disgusted with himself and he was torn apart by that. He was so broken up about

hurting Odo so much. Yeah. Yeah. Because let's face it, that's his friend. He is friends with Odo. You know, as much as you may say that they're antagonistic towards each other, they're definitely friends. I feel that that way. Intellectually, they're on the same level.

They're both very intelligent. Yes. So, like, Quirk and Odo have this banter. But Odo, but Quark, like, does bad shit. And we don't see Garrick doing bad shit. We just, you know, he is somebody that Odo's suspicious of, which makes sense. Doesn't Odo at one point earlier say to, or no, not Odo, Garrick says to Odo. He says, stop reading all those detective novels that Miles O'Brien is giving.

Didn't he say that? Yes, and that was in the first, when they were back for the first time in Odo's cell. Yeah, I like that little detail that Odo loves detective novels. To further what Terry said about how similar these characters are and how intellectual they are, what an amazing chess game that would be between Garrick and Odo playing chess because that's what they do in life. They played the game of life

as if it was a chess game, right? And they're doing it right now. And they know six moves ahead. They know everything. They both analyze everything. Let me read a bit of trivia for both of you. David Livingston, Dennis McCarthy, and writer Ronald D. Moore

were all extremely proud of the scene where Garrick tortures Odo. Said Livingston, I think the scene is the best the episode. It's very intense, very dramatic, and very powerful. Livingston, even went as far as saying it is one of the best scenes that I have been involved in. I put it on my director's reel. So, you put it on your director's reel. You're proud of it. I have goosebumps. Yeah. I mean, that could have been a film. For sure. Very high quality. Very high quality.

We go back to the bridge of the Defiant. O'Brien walks into the bridge. He has fixed the cloaking technology and he takes a circuit board and tosses it over to eddington which i like oh i love that here's a what does he say a souvenir for of your handiwork yeah yeah and then they cloak and the lights go down dark in the bridge and they head off to the founders at maximum warp this time yeah so they're and remember when the the fleet was heading to the founder's planet they said warp six or something. Yes. And didn't Garrick say that's slow or somebody said that's really slow?

That's coming up. I think that's coming up. Oh, I thought they already said it. No, they did. They already said it. They did? Yeah, because that's a scene when he pops. When we first meet Leland Orser as the Tal Shiar officer, he says, you know, everything's ready.

We're heading warp six. And Garrick is the one that says, Warp six. Isn't that a little slow? He's like, that's because we don't want the Gem Hadar to notice us. If we're traveling faster. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So they said Warp 6. And then when the Defiant first left, they were at Warp 8. So they were going to catch them. They were kind of catching. But then they got stalled because of Eddington. Now they're going maximum warp. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Maximum's 10. You know what I'm talking about because you're a pilot too, Terry. I know exactly. And I was very excited to see the time. Top Gun, Part 2. Mm-hmm. I forgot what it's called.

But when he was, when... Maverick or something? Yes. When he was trying to get to Warp 10 and he went up to Warp 3, I was just like... Oh, you're talking about when they're... It wasn't Warped, though. It was... Mock.

Yeah. Mock. Yeah. And just, I'm sorry. I don't want to correct you. I don't want to correct Terry either. But I'm glad you did. But I really had Warp stuck in my head.

Yeah, of course. But I need to... That plane would have burned up at Warp. Yes. And I need to educate you regarding Warp. Warp 10 is the maximum, but it's not the maximum you can go. You can only go Warp 9.99. You can't go Warp 10.

Because if you go Warp 10, you are everywhere at the same moment. And that's what Tom Parris did in Voyager. He went Warped 10. Yes, we'd have had this conversation before. You saw that episode, too. Oh, that's the episode. Oh, yes, yes, yes. yeah oh lizard man lizard man yes yeah babies with the captain yep there you go there you go back to deep

space nine back to deist nine we're in the ready room of the warbird uh garrick informs tain that he didn't get anything useful and then tain says basically terminate him okay if he's not useful terminate him and garrick again you see his heart here he's like well wait a second you know he may be useful in the future and lovok the romulan agrees uh with garrick and he says yes i want to bring him back to romulus to study him and then lovok gets a call and uh we find out that they are nearing the founder's planet and they step out into the hallway and lovok stops garrick and ask why are you protecting odo and he thinks that he's got some kind of personal relationship with him and he calls Garrick a practiced liar in this scene, which is kind of true.

True. Yes. And Lovaq says, I'm going to observe you very closely. So now Garik is, you know, Lovaq is suspicious of Garrick. Garik's just got a lot on his hands right now. He's trying to keep Tane happy, not kill his buddy. Lovax after him. A lot of plates in the air.

He really has got a mess in his hands. But we go to the Warbird Bridge. They're at the Founders Planet. We see it. It's beautiful. They decide to fire the first volley of this barrage. And they do, sorry, to go back, before they fire the volley, they scan for life signs. They show multiple life forms on the planet.

It appears to be in a liquid state. They open fire. They destroy 30% of the planet's crust, but something strange. the life signs haven't changed it's the same amount 150 life signs and that's when they realize Garrick realizes he goes it was a false signal it was a trap um they were sending automated transponder to send the false sensor readings as soon as they realize you really are you really are automated um but that they suddenly pick up gem hidar ships approach approaching 150.

That's what it was. That's where you got it. What? That's too many. Yeah. 150. That's not, that's the Jim Hedar.

That's not the Cardassian in the other guys. I got that mixed up. That's scary. Yes. They're scary. Have you guys seen them yet? Yes. We have.

Yes. They're very scary. Very scary. They're hardcore. It was a trap. They were waiting. The Jim Hidar appear. This is what started.

it's a big battle. And I said it looks like our, this fleet is effed. I don't. Yeah, they're, they're in trouble. I see the real word there. What is it, Robbie? This fleet is effed? What does that mean? Messed up. They're, oh, we're trying to. Thank you, Terry. Thank you, Terry. Go ahead. I mean, the Gemadar are destroying the fleet ships left and right. They're, they're blowing up ships everywhere. They're flying through the middle of them. Tane is panicking. Sorry. Sorry, before you continue, I found the number.

Here it is. It is 20. I was right. It was 20. 20 before. So back in the beginning when there was a fleet, they were 20. And we thought that was a lot.

That is a lot. It did. But the Jim and R have 150. Now we're in a Star Wars movie. No. This is like a Star Wars movie. It's so exciting, isn't it? It was very exciting. They did such a great job with the, with all of the warbirds. Yes, the ships, the battle. It looked. It was such a great episode.

Mm-hmm. Well, Tain wants to retreat. He's panicking. Lovaq says there's no way out. They're going to have to take a stand right here and fight. And this is where Garrick quotes Bashir. He says, the fault is in ourselves. Yes. Yes. Can I ask you a director's question? when they have these kinds of fights do you direct the fight as well the space part of it yeah yeah you do sort of you you storyboard what you because you have to have a budget for how many shots your space shots you're going to have so you're usually storyboard those sequences and make sure everybody's on the same page and if as a director you want to see a specific thing happen you talk about that ahead of time so they can budget for it.

Right. And then like an explosion or. Yeah. How many ships explode or do you want the bad guys coming right at the camera? Things like that. So you'll, yeah. And are you physically there when they have those models? No.

No. So do you see it for the first time once it's cut together? Yes, usually on Star Trek. Yeah. You would see it for the first time. And before it airs, do you get to see your episode? finished before it's okayed or it's it's it's a that's an interesting question because historically well it's an interesting question because the dGA contract for tv directors says that they are

um supposed to be um every part of the process is supposed to be made available to them so the parts of the process that um directors could be involved in are editing and then um picking music, you know, spotting the music, spotting the visual effects, approving the visual effects, all those steps, ADR work, if they have to re-record an actor, the director could be there and directing the actor re-recording. Historically, though, in TV, directors kind of walk away usually after their directors cut, and the producers take over. So the producers are the ones that go through and spot all the sound moments and pick the ADR takes

and do all of that. So usually that's producers. But directors are able to be a part of all that. I bet David Livingston was much more a part of that. Oh, yeah, because he's a producer too. Because he's a producer on the show, yeah. So the guy. That's cool.

As a producer and director on Resident Alien, I am involved in lots of cuts that the directors have finished and they have not been involved in anymore. So I'm still doing visual effects on that show and looking at all kinds of things, you know, sound music choices, scoring choices, all that stuff. Yeah.

And how many days for each episode does that happen? I'm sorry, it's turning into an interview on Robbie, but I'm not kidding. It goes on for months. I mean, you know, the director usually has a week or two after they finish shooting to edit and then they're done. But the producers will, you know, on Resident Alien, yeah, we'll tweak for three to six months on an episode. Wow.

It's a slow process, very slow. You'll look at it over and over and over and over again. But Robbie, isn't it true? The person that had the most to do with this battle scene is the visual effects supervisor. That's who's in charge of everything. Okay. So let's give kudos. Oh, it's like Dennis Madelon doing the, he choreographs, the fight stunts, right.

So this man does, which is, okay. That's right. So this guy, which is Gary, no, it's Gary Hutzel. So Gary Hutzel is the visual effects supervisor for this battle scene. And so as much as living said a couple of things to shepherd him along the way, all the details were Hutzel. You know, he's doing everything. So he was instructed, let me read this to you, he was instructed to come up with a way to portray the battle of the Amarian Nebula without going over budget. His solution was to create.

transparency of the models of the Romulan warbirds, warbirds, and the Cardassian ships. And to use those transparencies in the background, coupled with the fact that they were in the background, Hutzel ensured that the camera never lingered on one of them too long so as to ensure that the viewers did not spot the effect. So this episode features the biggest on-screen battle in Star Trek history up to this point. Yep. So he was using a little cheat. Yeah.

Okay. Also, Gary Hutzel commented on the special effects filming that we started shooting motion control on February 21st, and we delivered on April 21st. We had 20 days of motion control shooting a record for a one-hour show. The shot where the USS Defiant destroys a Gem-Hadar fighter and then flies through the debris, that's towards the end of the battle scene, that took them four days to film that one part of shooting the Gemha-Dar fighter. That's insane. Can you imagine four days. It looked amazing. I'm so impressed. It's like a one second of screen time. It was four days worth of work. Wow. Wow. Gary Hutzel. Loved it. Thank you, Gary. All right. So in the middle of the battle, after Garrick quotes Bashir, who quoted Shakespeare, Lovaq says he's going to go to engineering, gives the bridge to

Tane. And then there's some big explosions behind Tane as he takes the captain's chair. There's fire. And then there's some firemen come in. Two guys with fire extinguishers come running in. They were just waiting in the hallway. They're fire extinguishers. That was me.

I put on some Kardashian makeup. Oh, I'm so proud of you. Thank God they were there with the fire extinguishers. Yes. So quickly. And then Garrick, in the middle of all this. chaos, Garrick decides to sneak out. So he sort of tiptoes out the back door. And we see in Odo's quarters next, Garrick, well, we're outside of Odo's quarters. Some people are running through

the hallway, debris, and sparks. Garrick comes up behind a guard. He does what I call a double double fist hits the back of the guard and then he double fist the head of the guard. So it's a double double. I like your name. But I'm going to give it another name. I'm going to call it the Dennis Madloan special is what I'm going to call that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to call it bam, bam.

Bam, bam? Okay. We got three ways to call it, guys. Double, double. The Dennis Madloan special or bam bam. So. Takes him out. Garrick, uh,

garick's very good with his double-fisted hits. And then he goes inside, tells Odo, um, that they have to try to get to the runabout. This is when Lovoc enters. And Lovoc hands them a device. He says, going to need this to get to the runabout and admits, Lovac admits in the scene that he is a changeling as well. Yes.

And he says no changeling. He's a founder. He's a founder, yeah. He says no changeling has ever harmed another changeling in the scene. And I wrote down, why can't humans do that? Yeah. I can't. Yes.

Can you imagine that? Oh, my God. We just said, let's not harm each other. Yeah. It is a human mandate. No human will ever. harm another human. That would change the world. Oh, my God. Wouldn't it? Yes. Yes. Yes. Interestingly enough, the only person that says the name of the Romulan Taushiar agent who's really a

changeling is Anabran Tain. Tane is the first one to introduce him. And he doesn't pronounce it Lovoc. He says, Colonel Louvok is what he says. Really? Yeah. And so we're reading the script with L-O-V-O-K. But because Tain pronounced it that way, I guess that's the only pronunciation in the entire episode. Because no one ever says his name other than that one time. It's Louvok. And I hate to correct. And it's a swan song. It's a little sad for Tain.

Louvok also offers Odo a chance to join the Great Link one more time. Yeah. You can do it, Odo, if you want. Odo says, nope, my answer is still. no no thank you oh my gosh yeah so they they now they go into the corridor they're going to the corridor because they're trying to head to the runabout yep but at the last second garrick says you go ahead i need to go do something i need to go to the bridge i need to go grab tain and otto's like you got to be kidding me are you he goes like look you don't understand i owe him a debt i'm trying to repay this

please wait as long as you can now we're back on the bridge and tain is not about to even move a muscle. Dana's just there. And he's just trying to figure out what went wrong. And he says they're lost it. He's lost. He's like there must have been an informant. That's the only explanation.

He's going crazy. He's going crazy. Yeah. And David Livingston shot it. He shot it. David shot it handheld with a fish eye lens. And so you've got these kind of crazy lenses and crazy acting. It was very, it was a good blend of, of directing.

his personal demise. Yeah. Yeah. He's crumbling inside, Tane. Right. And Garrick tries. Garrick tries. He tries to get him out of it.

He tries to snap him out of it. He screams at him. And at the end, when he's saying to him, An Auburn, come on. That's when Odo shows up and literally knocks Garrick out. He punches him so hard. And then just flips him over his shoulder. You see, it just flips Garik over his shoulder.

Like, he's a sack of potatoes. It's like, come on. Let's go. Yeah. Wow. I love that. Yeah. When he takes him out to the runabout, we cut on onto the runabout.

And it starts on his bruise on his head, I guess. This was a tricky shot because they're both in a sitting at, you know, the front of the Defiant. And there's like a wall pretty close. Or yeah, on the runabout. Sorry, they're not on the Defiant. They're on the runabout. But it starts over there and then pulls across the console and over. to a two shot tricky they must have used a jib arm or something david was always trying to do

challenging shots and that was you know not flashy but a challenging shot to do i'm sure so can i rewind for a second back to the end of the last scene so what yeah so when he knocks him out you know tain's losing it because tain doesn't even he doesn't even acknowledge that garrick has been knocked out right so he throws him over the shoulder and tain continues talking to garrick He says, these founders, Elam, they're very good. Next time, we should be more careful. So he's still in a conversation with Garrick, even though Garrick is gone. And that, to me, was just so haunting to watch that scene.

It was like, oh, I felt bad for Elam. I'm sorry. I felt bad for Anabrentain. I really did. Yeah. Well, also, he talks about, like, what am I going back to? Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like he was ready to, you know. He's done. Yeah. Yeah. He was finished. He knows he's done. He's in trouble for something. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. He's, yeah. The safest path is to just, does he want them to kill him? Or is he just ended here? Yeah. We learn they're being chased by the Gem Hadar. They've got a bunch of ships chasing them. They lose their shields.

The shields are down, you know, 30% and 15%. Then they're out. Shields are gone. And Garrick, very heartfelt, offering, sincere apologies for what he had to do and Odo understands Odo says I can understand you wanting

to go home and just then the defiant arrives decloaks and this is shots of Dax piloting that I was like oh my God Dax should be she should get a trophy for this

she gets some kind of award because amazing piloting taking out Have you pilots did anything before this? Is there is, does Dax pilot anything before this episode? His pilot is.

Yes, runabouts and other things. Oh, well, Tobin Dax was a pilot. Oh, he was a test pilot. Okay, okay. So you got that in the genetics. Yes. Okay.

Dax is good. She's, take it for me. Dax is giving Tom Paris a run for his money in this episode. Oh, my. Totally was. We're twinning. I guess we're twinning. winning or dax is winning i don't know dax was great in this we go back on the bridge of the defiant

cisco is beamed odo and garrick aboard they talk about it on the bridge they drop shields they beam them aboard um and then they raise the shields back up because more jem hidar ships are closing in we cut to the transporter room on the defiant bashear is there great uh garrick is very grateful that Odo saved his life because he says Bashir says wow that looks painful and Garrick says yes it is

but it did save my life and he gives Odo a look so they're working it out the torture resentment I think there's a deep respect for each other that's

yeah yeah yes agree look at your notes Robbie I love that Dax is a better pilot than me I said, I'm telling you. What? Oh my God.

I like Dax is a badass pilot. Yeah, but look below that. It says Dax is a better pilot than me. Oh. I did. I wrote it down. They're fighting the Gem Hedar on the bridge. Basically, they win.

Easy but not easy. It's what I wrote. It was easy for you to say. Yeah, it was easy for Dax to fly through there, but definitely a challenging short battle. And Kira's very happy to see Odo's safe in the scene, which I thought was very sweet. And then they lay in a course to go back home. And Cisco says, engage and off they go.

They survived. Back in the commander's office, Toddman is telling Cisco that he's not going to press charges with anyone. So, yes, he says it sounded a lot like Wolf 359. And Cisco says he thought the same thing. says if you pull a stunt like that, you will court-martial, I will court-martial you, or I will promote you.

Either way, either way you're going to be in trouble. Favorite line of that scene is very funny. The way he started, he says, but if you pull a stunt like that again, I'll court-martial you or I'll promote you. Like, it was just like, oh, oh, okay, got it. Either way, you're going to be in trouble.

If I promote you, you'll be in trouble. Yes. And I love how, The transmission ends, and we end on Cisco with a little smile. Yes, that's what I was going to say. That's smile on his face. I loved it. Yes.

Did it. That's when he started growing his goatee. Yeah. The smile began the beginning of the goatee. Yeah, go ahead. Court martial me. We go into our last scene. This is a great scene, too.

It's shot so amazing. I loved it. Yeah. So we're in Garrick's shop. Garrick's shop is a mess from the explosion. He goes over and starts wiping all this soot off a mirror. And he sees Odo in the reflection. And then Garrick turns.

And the camera stays on Garrick's face with a reflection out of focus in the mirror. And that is the whole scene. Is he, okay, Robbie, is he turn, when he turns, is he looking directly at Odo or is he turned in profile kind of talking to him? Because that's what I was wondering about. I think he's looking. I think he's looking at him. Directly.

But through the mirror. Right? The mirror sheet. The mirror sheet is a little disorienting. I would agree with you. It looks like the mirror is looking one way and Garrick's looking a slightly different way. Correct. As if he's giving side face to Odo the entire time.

That's what I thought. But I don't think that was the intent. That's not the intent. Okay. I think they wanted it to appear like he's looking him directly in the eye. Okay. All right. But bold, bold choice, David.

Very much. much. I wrote down, I wonder what Rick Berman said about this. If someone shot a scene like that on Resident Alien, I would not be happy because you want to have coverage so that you can, you know, there's a lot of reasons you might want coverage for time and things like that. But I know David's M.O. was always to do to get in trouble a little bit. And I bet he got in trouble with this scene, even though it's very cool. I think it's very cool. I think it's super cool.

I'm so happy you did it in a oneer because then nobody could mess with it. Yeah. You know, because it's artistic, it's creative. Did you feel like you wanted to see Odo's face, though? Because we never got to see Renee's face. It didn't bother me. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I don't think it was a problem.

I think it was better this way, to be honest. Yeah, the message. It's the separation, too, of who they really are. You know, they still, now they have back at home. they're in their respective personalities that they have on Deep Space Nine. And even when Garrick, you know, it's like when Odo thanks him for leaving out his personal information. Yeah.

And Garrick said, yeah, I thought that would be better to, you know, that it never happened. We treat it like it never happened. It's just such a great, it weirdly to me, even though they were far apart. it was very intimate and I think being two men and it being that intimate they didn't need to be close or close-ups for all of that

we've seen them through the whole episode yeah it was very bold I thought it was very creative and artistic and inventive but as a producer I would I would not be happy and I'm sure Rick wasn't happy

because it takes any options off the table You don't have any questions. What if the studio says, what if the network or whoever is paying for the show says, we want to see Odo's close up, you don't have to. Well, then you're going to have to do a reshoot and we have the set and we have the actors. We already have them. Yeah.

Not the end of the world. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, if it were a guest star that we hardly ever see, it'd be one thing. Yeah, that's true. We know what Odo's face looks like, right? So we don't have to have it in a shot. It was very cool.

It's the storytelling that he's doing that I really appreciate about this. So we've already talked about how impressed we were with the writing. And now Ronald D. Moore gives us an excellent ending. The final three lines of this, Odo says to Garrick, Garrick, I was thinking that you and I should have breakfast together sometime. Garrick says, why, constable? I thought you didn't eat. And Odo answers, I don't.

And that's the end of the whole. it's goosebumps it's like look at that it's like he wants to be friends with him he wants to hang out with him and again he didn't say like hey we went through a bunch now i feel like i have better friendship with i know you better it's literally just i would like to have breakfast you don't eat i don't and that's it it's so well it's so well written so good job ronald d more excellent job everyone My theme slash moral of this episode, starting with Robbie McNeil. What is your response for that, my friend? My theme slash moral slash lesson slash something to think about is don't let your past distract you from what's right in front of you now.

That's good. Because both Odo and Garrick were kind of yearning for something they felt they loved. lost or missed and they've got good friends right in front of them they got a great life you know sure i get the yearning for home i get all of that but just when you let that drive you like garrick did to you know partner up with tain again and go to the dark side and he's got he's got a good life right in front of him yeah and that's living in the past isn't it it is terry for me watching um Garrick and Odo and their relationship. Friendships are complicated. Loyalty can be complicated and I think you need to give relationship space to maintain your integrity when you're faced

like Garrick is with a task that he has to do his job but he also doesn't want to hurt his friend And he's trying to be, have integrity and hold both of those things. And he does it really well. I think he did it really well. And I think he did, that was a really good example of somebody who can handle that kind of complication in a friendship. And to me, that was a really important theme about the friendship. Great. I love that.

Garrett. Yeah. You know, mine is more about. I think the best lesson is to be learned from the changelings. No changeling will ever harm another changeling. And I wish we could say the same thing about the human race. If we could all believe in, no human would ever harm another human. Our world would be an amazing place to live in right now.

Yeah. Amen. Yeah. So that is my theme in moral is let us as humans espouse the same belief, system that the changelings subscribe to. That's all. And that's a mic drop. There you. There you. Boom. It really

is. It really is. Yeah. Beautiful. Garrett, that was beautiful. Thank you. Agreed. I appreciate that. The Patreon poll winner for theme moral of this episode is submitted by Andrew Cano. Never underestimate

your opponent. That's true too. That's smart. Good advice. Good advice. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning in to our recap and discussion of part two, which was called Not Part One's name, but The Die is cast with the wonderful Terry Farrell joining us. Thank you, Terry. Thank you, please.

Yes. Please join us next week when we will be recapping and discussing the episode Explorers, and that will be with Armin, and also special guest host, Chase Master's. It is the introduction of her character. She's one of my favorite people. Yes. She's gorgeous in it. Just gorgeous. Really good actress.

We cannot wait to watch it. So Robbie and I'm really excited to see that episode. And yes, so that will be next week. She will not disappoint. Yes. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material and a little bit more Fair. Everyone else, see you later.