The Delta Flyers - The Jem'Hadar

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode, The Jem’Hadar, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, & Armin Shimerman.The Jem’Hadar: Sisko’s plans for father-son bonding are ruined when Jake Invites Nog to accompany them on a trip to the Gamma Quadrant. We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Tom Paynter, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Tim Neumark, Randy Hawke, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, Sam Mikelic, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, Jonathan Capps, & Sean T.Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Luz R., Michelle Z, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Courtney Lucas, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Danie Crofoot, Steve Lugo, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Kevin Harlow, & Hailey Lugo, & Chris GarisAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Patrick Carlin, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, Mike Schaible, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Shanyn Behn, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Kevin Hooker, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Mark Lacey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Linda Daireaux, Mars DeVore, Robert Allen Stifflerf, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Andrew Cook-Feltz, Karen Galleski, Loretta Reyes, Timothy McMichens, Dawn Colleen Smith, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Willow Whitcomb, Mo, Leslie Ford, & Douglas Lawrence-Plant, & Scott BowlingThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Greetings, everyone, welcome to the Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole with Quirk Dax and their great friends Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your host today are my fellow Trek actors, the amazing Armand Shimmerman, the rambunctious Robert Duncan McNeil, And myself, the gregarious Garrett Wong. For the complete and exciting version of this podcast, check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron today. How'd you like that intro?

I saw that alliteration you did there. Very nice. Very nice. Yes, sir. Are you okay with rambunctious? Because you're kind of... Yes, I love rambunctious. Okay, good.

I'm not feeling so rambunctious today. As I said, I didn't sleep. So I had the full filter on for those Patreon members watching. I've got the full beauty filter beauty filter going that's why he looks so amazing took as long as it did for me to get my quark makeup for him to look like that to figure that out

to figure that out exactly what last night McNeil because the Georgia Bulldogs barely won their game against Kentucky. That's what I was going to ask you they was a stressful football game this weekend Armin oh my gosh my team they played Kentucky

were they behind the entire time the whole time until the end of the game. Oh, my goodness. And they won by one point. Oh, great. And we were supposed to win by like three or four touchdowns. Like we were picked to, you know, crush the other team and they crushed us. So it was very stressful.

Armour, do you follow any football at all or is there any sport that you, not so much? Okay. Not so much. My wife follows baseball, but I just never, ever got into it. I think it's because I didn't play sports per se. I played chess. I smile when other people talk about scores. You smiled a lot as we were talking about football.

Yes, exactly. did you do you remember michael pillar was a huge baseball thing yes of course that's why the baseball is so prominent in cisco's office yeah yeah yeah i remember going to a couple of dodger games with michael because he had season tickets oh i didn't know you did that robbie i did what i think michael felt particularly bonded to me because when i was auditioning for for voyager yeah i had a full beard like a thick beard from the play i was doing in new york right and when i went came in for the test. I just closed the play. And I went in and they came out to wait. Michael, Michael Pillar walked out in the hall and he said, hey, everybody loved your reading. But,

you know, this beard is so different than when you were on next gen. Would you be willing to shave it off? And I said, sure. Yeah, absolutely. He goes, no. Michael goes, no, I don't mean, I mean now. Like, would you shave it off right now? Well, how? And he goes, I've got a razor in my office. So he walked me across the street to the, to the, what was the writer's building, the writer's building and up to his office and in his bathroom, he had a razor and shaving cream, and I shaved a thick beard with just a razor, which, that's not easy. It's just bloody, I was a bloody mess going back into read again, but I did shave it. God.

I think ever since that, Michael felt bonded to me. To you. Blood brothers. Yes, exactly. And Kitty is a fan of baseball, which Robbie is a fan of baseball as well. Is there a team that she follows, or do you know? Dodgers. She's Dodgers.

Okay. Okay. One of the things I pride myself on. Yes. Is that I pride myself on not following things that most people follow. Okay. I actually think, you know, that I am unsiducible. That's a word.

I would guess that. And so therefore, I follow my own interests. And I don't necessarily follow what the thing is to follow in that period of time. I don't do that. And I'm rather proud of myself for not doing it. Well, Harmon, let me ask you, are you a Taylor Swift fan? I may have heard a Taylor Swift song, but I wouldn't be able to tell you it was a Taylor Swift song. So the answer is no.

Okay, see, so yeah. Got it. So you follow the road that's less traveled. So, Brody could be. Yes. It could be this. Instead of getting into NFL or even college football, maybe Armin can cheer on the local Valley High School football team, which it's the least road traveled by far of all football fenders you know armin as far as sports and the least road

traveled my boys both played rugby growing up and that was a sport that was not popular at all but they both kind of fell into it and i love the sport so yeah not in this country not in america there's something about rugby being such a a niche sport that made it even cooler tough does rugby have any rules whatsoever besides tackling It does. It's the gentleman's game. It doesn't look like a gentleman's game. In Armand's opinion, it's the ruleless game.

There's no rule. It's a ruleless game. There are no rules. But I'm sure there are. I'm sure they're, you know, who can get the most injuries. That's the, or maybe cricket or curling would be something that Armis. Yeah, something obscure. That's to be your sport.

Curling. There you go. Curling. I love. The broom thing. I never followed chess masters, but it was a rated chess band. How did that happen? for you that you got into chess like that.

It's a long story, but to make it as short as possible, I went to a chess tournament and applied as an applicant, as a player. And somehow, I won all my games. I beat the people that were rated. And in chess, if you beat someone, you get their rating. Oh, that's how it works. Look at that. And was this in New Jersey?

Was this where? No, it was actually in Connecticut. I had just moved to Connecticut from California, long before I started my acting career I was starting my waiting career and I was sort of lonely and nothing to do that weekend and I said, oh, there's a chess tournament nearby

you know, I'll go and ply. You had just played for fun. It was just a hobby and then you got raided. Yeah, the guy I beat was so surprised because I made some foolish mistakes. I could see it in his eyes. I could see, oh, this guy's an amateur. And then all of a sudden I had an epiphany.

You had a move. Not a move, an epiphany of about four or five. five moves. And I went, I do that and I do that and I do that. You saw the matrix and you got him. And I thought, when I saw him take the sacrifice, which he just assumed I made another bad move. Right. And when I made the sacrifice, I went, gotcha. That's a sports attitude right there. See, that's a thing. It's done silently. It takes great acting to not show that is. Yeah, you had to bluff. You had to basically act like you were doing a stupid move, you know, and he took the bait, hook, line, and sinker. Well, that's a great strategy now that I think of it. I'm going to use that when I play chess next time. Make some really stupid mistakes. And look like you're naive and don't know what you're doing. There you go. And to come full circle, isn't that what Quark does in this episode? Yes, he does. Look at that. You brought it all around. Okay. We got some birthdays. We do. We have Nancy Stout. So first of all, I want to say, happy birthday. on November 6th to Nancy Stout.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Nancy, and it's only one day past my birthday. Oh, wow. You're the fifth? I'm the fifth election date. Wow. Happy birthday, Nancy, on the 6th, a day after Armin. And Janet Harlow has a birthday on November 9th, which is exactly my birthday.

So, happy birthday, Janet. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, chef, Janet. And last but not least, One day after Robbie McNeil's birthday is Dica's birthday. So happy birthday to Dica, November 10th. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Dicca.

Have a great birthday. Jake Nog and Cork go camping with Cisco as their guide. Then the campers and the Gem Hadar collide. Cork earns newfound respect. Then a starship gets run. It looks like this is going to be one crazy ride. There you go. Excellent.

All right. Here's my haiku for the Jim Hedar. Gamma quadrant bound. Ben once solo time with Jake. Jim Hidar bring pain. I was going to say bring death, but then I was like, gosh, you know, I'm going so hardcore. I mean, I don't know.

Is pain good better than death, gentlemen? I like bring the pain, yeah. Pain, pain, pain is the right word. And I want to just double-check pronunciation. It's not, it's not like it's, it's Jim-Hadar. It's gem, gem-Hadar. Gem-Hadar. Okay, Jim-Hadar.

Did I say Jim-Hadar? I think it sounded to me like Jim, but it may be my old ears, so who knows? My apology. So it's definitely not an I sound, but a E sound, like a gem, like a precious gem, correct? Yeah, there you go. Gem-Hadar. What is your etymology of today? I have done the etymology of three words involved in this episode.

Okay. All right. The first is Gem Hadar. Jim Hadar is an Indian rank. It's a native officer in a seapoy regiment ranking around lieutenant. It is also the name given to certain police officers and other civic departments and to the head of a body of servants. So in East India. It's an East Indian word.

Right. And was used a lot by, what's it called, the Brits, when they were ruling over East India and India. So, Jim Hedar. As I do the etymology on these episodes, I begin to see that I had no idea before, was that the writers were looking at history. They were finding historical words that played in perfectly

for the characters and story plots that they were writing. I love that. That's a deep dive to actually find something that fits perfectly. The next word of interest to me was the character, ERIS. ERIS is the Greek goddess of strife and discord. The name is of a certain etymology. It has connections with the Greek verb to raise, to stir, or to excite. In mythology, the goddess ERIS initiated the Trojan War by causing the judgment of Paris.

Paris, of course, not your character, but Paris is one of the main sons of Hector. That's a perfect, that's a perfect name for her, isn't it? Yes, it's absolutely perfect. My goodness. And finally, the third word that I was interested in is founder, which comes from the old French, Fondre, or Fondre, one who raises an edifice, one who presides over the erection of a city. That's the first definition. Second definition, a maker or a creator. Third definition, one who finds or establishes an institution with an endowment for its perpetual maintenance. That was first used in 1303. One who found or casts metal or makes articles of cast metal,

first used in 1402. Grounds, sediment, lees. That's a definition first used in 1450. the next definition that that portion of a lead mine which is given to the first finder of the vein hence the first part worked that's in 1653 the seventh definition inflammation of the laminar structures of a horse's foot resulting usually from overwork first used in 1547 wow eight to I'm going on to plunge a definition to plunge to the body Bottom, submerge, first Jews in 1330. A knife definition, to burst or smash something, smash something in, to force a passage through,

first Jews in 1330. So those are my definitions for the founder. All of these words have interesting backgrounds. Yeah. That's amazing. Founder was used in so many different ways. It seems like sometimes you'll get a few definitions for a word you find. They'll be somehow related, but it feels like Founder.

has a broad use, really broad use. Right. And I believe it's the influence of both the Anglo-Saxon and the French, which is what happened when the French took over England. Let's talk about guests right now. We have Alan Oppenheimer as Captain Keog, who was also seen previously in a TNG episode, Rightful Air as the character Koroff. On top of that, he played on our show, Robbie, on Voyager as a Nazoo ambassador in

the episode Rise. That was the episode with Elix and Tuvok. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think this may or may not be true. I also heard that this is, this individual is also related to the Oppenheimer. He is.

Yes. Yes. Okay. The Robert Apernheim. Yeah. Wow. It's his cousin. Look at that.

Wow. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Oppenheimer's. Yeah. The scientist has an Oppenheimer acting cousin. So there you go. Wow.

And if I may, about, about Alan. Alan is a prolific a character actor. He's done tons of stuff, so much so. Most actors, when they get to be our age, Allen's in my age, they've done about 150 things in the business. And they've had a middle class living. God bless us. Alan did 360 plus different shows. That's an extraordinary number.

360 different shows? No overlap at all. He was on Hogan's Heroes, the $6 million man, Bionic Woman, Happy Days, St. Elsewhere. Oh, yeah. He's a working actor. He's the kind of actor that I aspired to be. Right. That, you know, just keep working.

You don't have to know my name. Just say, oh, yeah, you look familiar. Yeah. That's what Alan did and succeeded tremendously at. He's a, and on stage as well. And he's just a great actor. And my time with Alan was always terrific. He's always charming.

and amenable and friendly and I'd love spending time with Alan. Amazing. Well, kudos to Ellen Oppenheimer. We also have Molly Hagan playing the part of ERIS and thank you to Armin for explaining the origin of that. I have a little quote here that Molly, I guess did in some interview.

Molly said, I love the Ferengi. So anytime they had a lot to do, I was happy. Armin particularly is so damn funny. I could watch him read the phone book. I love the episode and I loved all the quirky head gestures that I made Thank you Molly for that

But I think those quirky head gestures I think Jeff Combs who eventually ends up playing the Vorda as well I think he picked that up from her Because while watching that episode I went oh that's what Jeff used to do He used to do it Oh how fun

Yeah So she established it and then Jeff did the research And followed it then Jeff's not the only Vorda that I know I also know a lady named Kitty Swink Who played a Vorda as well She played a Vorda? I didn't know that

The Vorda, with the ears that were designed, those kind of ears and the look reminded me of Kess on our show. Yeah. It was a similar kind of physiology there. But it's even higher up, though, isn't it? Yeah, it's almost like, you know, if you're talking about like converse shoes, you've got the low tops and the high tops. So the Vorda are high top converse ears. All right. We also have Kress Williams as Talaq Talon, Tlaqtalan.

He's the main Gem Hadar that speaks throughout this episode, I'm assuming. I think he's the one. Isn't he the one that talks to him? Yeah. And then later he comes on the station. He's on both, right? Kress, of all people, was the actor that played Black Lightning. He's done many, many other roles.

I met him through the convention circuit, but I had no clue that he was on Deep Space 9. Upon meeting him, he didn't even mention that he had done Deep Space 9. So when I saw his name, I was like, what? So I was very excited to see Chris's name. on there. He did a very good job, by the way. He did a very good job. Yes. And we all know it's not easy to do full prosthetics and acts at the same time. And he did a good job. You're right. In your first episode. In your first episode. Yeah. And this is one of his early acting jobs too. This is near the beginning of his career. I think he started maybe a couple years before booking this job. So

good job to Cress Williams. Story by Ira Stephen Bear, directed by Kim Friedman. Evidently, this is the episode that marked the kind of departure of Michael Pillar. So Pillar sort of like took hands off. And after this episode, Iris Stephen Bear became the showrunner. You know, the he really took the reins over from this point forward. He went on to be doing another show, I believe. He went on to Voyager, for sure. Yeah, but he also was beginning to think about other shows. He did a show with John Delancey as well. Oh, that's right. Remember that one? That's Sort of like a steampunk sort of based episode. So let me just officially read what it says in this little trivia bit.

It says this was the last episode for which Michael Pillar served as the writing supervisor. While he nominally continued as co-show runner with Iris Stephen Bear until later in the following season, Bear essentially took over all show running duties after this episode. Wow. There we go. Yeah. And I'm speaking out of line here because I don't know. But this episode has iris fingerprints all over it.

Yeah. You can see where his mind was going. And it will be the first step into the next five years of deep space. It feels that way. It feels like the show is taking a very strong new turn, you know, in a long story that's beginning right now. It feels that way. Yes. They've been laying little Easter eggs over the course of this season.

But this is the absolute, the door is thrown wide open and we meet the aggression, if we call it that, of the founders and of the Jim Hedar and everybody associated with the founders. Yeah, this episode is the season finale for DS9 second season and also marked the start of the producer's strategy of leaving the audience in suspense and building on events in previous seasons without the use of cliffhangers. This strategy later led the show to take on a serial-like. feel and became quite common for DS9 in later seasons. We were moving away from episodic TV where everything is wrapped up in 42 minutes into long arc stories, which is now de rigour for most TV shows on the air. Here's a cute little tidbit, guys. Morn speaks in the German version of this episode.

He does? In the Spanish and Italian versions, he sighs instead. So this is all three at the same point just before the intro. Arm in your performance with more in that sequence, Mark, is amazing. It's a great idea. You know, it's spent a lot of time together, so there's a lot of chemistry there. A side comment. Your writing staff is so strong.

I mean, we also had a good writing staff, but I think yours, a lot of people have said to me over the years that DS9 had the strongest overall writing staff of any Star Trek show in that generation. You had, obviously, Michael Pillar, Rick Berman, you had, was Jerry on your show? was Jerry? No, she made an episode or two, but no, she wasn't. She was the TNG. But then you had in this, in this evolving generation, you have Iris Stephen Bear, Ron Moore, you've got Renee a cheverea, Peter Allen Fields, Joe Monosky. I mean, these names outside of Trek are such high-level writers. And many of them were young writers who went on to have glorious careers. Yeah,

yeah. As showrunners. One last thing, Robbie, before you jump in. The interaction between Cisco and Quark in this episode proceeded from that relationship having been set up in the series pilot emissary. Armand Shimmerman observed that in the Gem Hadar, their relationship finally gets back on track a little, a little, end quote. I feel like it gets back on track a lot. I mean, I felt like it's a huge step from how he's been treating you for the last, mostly for the last two years.

I do. I feel like he recognizes you. He stands up for you. he says without quark we wouldn't have gotten out of there it's absolutely true and and i will talk more about that at the end of today's podcast but but but i thought when shooting this episode that there was going to be a a title change as far a title with a d not with a t a title change um as far as the relationship between quark and cisco and there wasn't really but i give credit to avery uh he was doing his very best to make the change in this episode.

Yeah. Yeah. I felt it. I felt it for sure. Okay. Well, let's get into it. So we start in Cisco's quarters. Jake's tending to some mushrooms, I think.

He's very involved in the detail of these tiny mushrooms. Cisco comes in. They start to talk. He says, I think you should do something more challenging. Ask what would Jake like to do if he could do something. And Jake says, a planetary survey, maybe. Actually, that's not the verse thing he said. He says, I want to pilot a runner.

Yeah, he did say pilot a run about. All boys want to drive the car, you know? Absolutely. Which isn't, this is good riding, which he gets to do. He does. Yes, that's right. He does. I forgot to one last thing, Robbie.

This episode was nominated for an Emmy for outstanding individual achievement in space, in visual effects. And that award was actually won by Voyager's episode Caretakers. So we snatched it from D.S. 9, the jaws of the D.S. producers. But both shows were nominated, which is great. Which is all wonderful at the same time. And I'm happy to say I was in both those episodes. Yes, you were.

That's right. You were. Yes. You got two nominations. Yeah. Yeah. So he says he wants to pilot us a shuttle, but then he says, what else would you like to do?

He says, a planetary survey. And Cisco says, hey, I'll take you for a survey. We'll go to the Gamma Quadrant. It'll be a vacation. Big smiles and hugs at the end of the scene. I love the energy at the end. It just felt like we're going on an adventure and the warmth of father's son and that in that hug was really great. I loved it.

Yeah, but it was so great that as an audience member, you're thinking something is very foreboding is about to happen. Yeah, of course. They're about to eat those mushrooms is what's going to do. Dad, eat these mushrooms. And then we'll take a trip. This is a real trip we're going on now, my son. So, okay. Well, we go in the commander's office next.

going over all the latest updates and kira mentions uh while cisco's in the gamma quadrant he could stop by the the new bay jor colony and see their irrigation system that they're just thriving they're doing so good yeah she's heard and cisco says no i don't want to stop by there's father son time and uh that's when jake comes in to this little update meeting and is so excited because Nag, he invited Nag to come along. And Cisco was not happy about that. It's just a look on Cisco's face. Poor guy.

Yeah, it's disappointing. I mean, and again, I say this ad infinitum, but the relationship between Avery and Sariq is absolutely genuine. So I think he's playing upon real life emotions. I don't think I'm overstating the fact that he is, Avery is not particularly fond of the Ferengi, which is why I complimented him. just now on really doing a good job to overcome that.

So the idea that the Ferengi's coming with him, even if it's fantasy, it has a little bit of resonance in reality. Oh, wow, interesting. But there's something interesting, and we'll get to it in the story, but there's something interesting about what he hears from Quark and has to sort of recognize later on about us.

We'll get to that. Yeah, we'll get to that. We go to Quarks Cafe next. This is the bit we were talking about. The Morn. scene. Yes. I love this. You're just trying to get him to express himself. And just as he's about to, Warc sees Oda walking by and says, hold that thought. So funny. So funny. And I think it's the only time Kim actually panned over to a character in the episode. We get an establishing

shot of the second floor of Quarks. And then the camera pans over to this conversation that we were just alluding to. And I think that's the only time that happened. Oh, wow. In her directorial enterprise of this. But that's a great choice, in my opinion, because by doing that, you're sort of coming in mid-conversation. You're catching this conversation, you know, suggesting that you've been talking for

a while. Moran has been talking for a while as well. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's great. So Odo walks past, Quarks says, hold that thought, runs out to the promenade and asks Odo, about Cisco's answer to some idea that he had. We don't know what he's talking about here. Odo basically says he said no.

And he says in this scene that he doesn't like you. Yeah, it's a wonderful line. He doesn't like you, Quirk. So, which also helps set up this journey that's going to happen here. Right. And I thank you for the writers for giving that, giving me that wonderful line. Don't be ridiculous.

It's Kira that doesn't like me. Exactly. I mean, that I just screamed out loud. I had forgotten and I love that line that they gave me. Yeah, very funny. I kept thinking that at some point, Quark would try to offer Cisco a percentage of the sales from the advertisement on the monitors. At some point that would come in, but it didn't.

He did offer, like, you know, the later. Later on, he does offer. No, really? Really? Not to Cisco, but yes, he makes an offer. In this episode? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He does try to negotiate a bit later.

When we get to that scene, I'll remind you. Oh, okay, okay. All right. Odo leaves, and then Nog comes running up and tells Quark that he's going to be going with Jake and Cisco to the Gamma Quadrant. And I love the end of this when Quark says, so you're going to the Gamma Quadrant with Commander Sisko,

and you can see the wheels turning. How lucky for you! Great way to end it. Thank you. Now, I'm going to differ with you just. I think I see you too much of the wheels turn. Oh, really? If I had it to do over again, I would do less, less.

It would have worked much better. I know, I know, I know. And you're entitled to your opinion, so am I. I would have liked to have done a little bit less at that moment. You mean your final line is what you're saying? Not my line, but my look of, oh, so, you know, how good for you or something like that is the line. Yeah. Well, with the ending line, because Knox says, I'm going to the gamma quadrant with Jake and his father.

And your last line is you're going to the gamma quadrant with Commander Cisco. How lucky for you. I even felt like if it just said, how lucky for you and would have been even as better, it'd be less as more in a way. Exactly. I agree with that, Garrett. I totally agree with that. I'm looking at the original script, by the way, that last line that you said you wish you did less on.

Nog says, I'm going to the gamma quadrant dot, dot, dot, dot with Jake and his father, suggesting these dots, in my opinion, suggest he's nervous to tell you. Quark, it says, parenthetically, surprised. You're going to the gamma quadrant with Commander Sisko. Quark senses an opportunity. And then Quark's line says, how dot, dot, dot, parenthesis, getting an idea, lucky for you. As Quark throws a friendly arm around Nog, fade out. It doesn't have the pan over to mourn at the end in the script.

But it does suggest that you were getting an idea, the dot, dot, dots, all of that. So I think what you did there was how it was script. but I see why you would like to have tried it more subtle. It seems like it was scripted pretty obviously. But actors have an opportunity to, you know, to wiggle in a script. And I wish I had wiggled a little less. Okay. Gotcha.

Well, we go into the runabout next. They board the runabout. Nog is so excited. He wants to know how to fire phasers. Cisco's like, phasers. Then he goes to stow the bags in the back, leaving Jake and Cisco. alone for a minute. And Cisco's nervous about Nog on the trip, and Jake tries to reassure him, says he'll be fine. Cisco admits, I want some alone time with you. I wanted to have some father

son time. Jake says, absolutely we will. Just at that moment, quark mirrors with his bag, says he's got a chaperone nog, tell Cisco that this will prove basically that Cisco doesn't look down on Ferengis. Rom's attitude, he thinks Cisco hates Ferengis. frangies looks down on them so this will be a chance for Cisco to prove them wrong This is an episode that doesn't have ROM in it

All we have to do is mention a character's name A recurring character Not a series regular But a recurring character And everybody knows who that is You couldn't do that in TNG really No You couldn't I don't even think you could do it

In Voyager either Where you could just mention a recurring character Who was in Let us say less than half the episodes and just refer to him without having to explain who that is. Yeah.

Maybe I say my brother, but I don't think so. And that's one of the beauties of our show. We had so many important recurring characters that you could just refer to them. And the audience, we know exactly who you were talking about because it was part of the community.

Yeah. Yeah, we don't have that many, but we did have a few. Like Cessca, Cessca is one that we named her. Yeah, Cessca, you could have mentioned maybe. You know who she is right off the bat. Yeah.

we had a couple but yeah it was your show has got so many threads you know the tapestry of relationships and characters and it's much larger than any other star trek show that i can think of it's basically because we stayed in one place yeah we stayed in one place so we weren't always moving and losing characters we were in one place although yeah we go a lot of places in this episode and we do lose people it's one of the things that i really loved about our show was the the ensemble of people and characters that the audience got to know better and better. The end of the scene, Cisco is, he's in a pickle, so he agrees. Quark, uh, basically, Armin, you chess matched him or checkmated him in the, at the end

of the scene, Cisco, going back to your chess reference, you caught it. He didn't have a move at the end. You, you put him in a corner. And look at what Bob Blackman did our costume, where he gave us all new costumes. We were dressed in outing, in camping outfits. Yeah, I immediately said, look at Corks, look at Cork's wardrobe here. It's completely different from what he wears in the bar when he's working. This to me looks like what he would wear on a picnic, you know, on an outing, basically.

Yes? And Cisco, too. He's out of uniform. He is, yeah. He's in regular clothes. It looks like we're, you know, about to hike the Alps. Yeah, absolutely. The roots of this idea for this episode were originally attended.

to be season one finale. Really? Believe it or not. Yeah. First season finale. Yeah. And what they were going to do at that point was they were have a crossover between TNG and D.S9 in which both crews faced a ruthless intergalactic invasion force. Wow.

You know what's interesting is I think they did use the enterprise, the TNG bridge. Yes. Yes. Later on on the monitor and all that shaking. and everything. And not only that, Robbie, you're on the same, you're on the same page in terms of the actual ship itself, the Odyssey itself. There's a few shots that were taken from TNG of the Enterprise, that they said, okay, well, just use that footage. Just reuse that. Yeah, yeah. It's the same galaxy class starship. So why not? They're all going to look alike.

I do want to say at the end of this when work, you know, corners Cisco and Cisco goes, okay, he agrees, you guys walk away. And in a close-up, you see Cisco go, woo-hoo. Do you remember that? I was gone, so I didn't see it. But I do remember watching the episode thinking, this is where Avery really doesn't know what to do. Does really know what to do?

It's a sarcastic, like, here you go. Yeah, I'm so not happy to be here. Woo-hoo! Kind of a movie, yeah, it was great. It was very funny to me. And I looked at the script. It's not in the script. There's no suggestion that Avery go woo-hoo or anything.

So I give Avery credit for adding a little button there at the end. Yeah, good. Good job. We cut into a forest. Where did you shoot this? You know, I was watching that. I know that some of this was shot on the soundstage. And when we get to that scene, I will tell you how I remember that for sure.

But we must have also shot it in Griffith Park. as well. No, it is not Griffith. Oh, where is it? The outdoor scenes on the Gamma Quadrant Planet were filmed at the Descanso Gardens in the Los Angeles suburb of La Cognada Flint Ridge. It's interesting. I'd have no memory of that. I do remember the soundstage section. It was a beautiful forest shot, super long lens shot of you guys walking through the forest.

Yeah. Jake loves it. He's having a blast. Quark does not love it. I love this runner. Quark, itching behind his. ears. I love when Nog says, I think they're talking about trees and stuff. It's very funny. There's a lot of comedy in this episode for a big season finale. There's great laughs. Yeah, getting itchy behind the ears. Quark asks Nog for some ointment that he brought in his bag. And Cisco says, you know, you can go back to the runabout and sleep if you want. He's trying to get rid of you still. Just go. You don't have to camp with us. Yeah. But Quark says,

he wouldn't miss the chance to get to know each other better. So work is not giving up on this. He's got a chanda. Yes. As an audience member watching this for the first time, I loved seeing the fringi in the forest because, let's face it, we see Ferengi in the bar. We see them on the station, in the promenade,

but never on an away mission, never, you know, on location. So I loved it. It was like, oh, my God, look at them. They're out in them. in nature, finally. And to that, it's very rare that I ever got off the soundstage. Correct. That's what I'm saying.

Very where I ever got up the sound stage. However, one of the things that Quark does says, oh, the temperature and the humidity. Now, what the writers don't know is that several years from now, when they establish the Ferengi homeworld, Ferengenar, it is very humid on Ferengi. Really? Oh. Oh, a little continuity bump there. Yeah.

I mean, it was a funny bit that Quark just didn't like nature. I mean, I think you even have a line. You say, oh, I get a mild reaction now and then Cisco says, to what? And you very, very dry, like, say, nature. It was so, I laughed out loud. Yeah, but that's a continuity bump if your home world is very humid and it's very humid. And it does have nature. And, you know, it rains all the time on Ferregina.

Oh, wow. It's constantly raining. So humidity must have been high all the time. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, they keep walking further on. They take a little rest by some trees, and we see quark putting on the ointment. I loved it.

It looked like zinc, sunblock or something going on his ears. And I distinctly remember, okay, now I have to find it. I don't know where it is because you can't feel it. Right. Where is it? I got to put it on in a certain way. and not get it into my eyes. I remember thinking, okay, let's see if I can get this right.

You can't feel anything. It's all rubber. Yeah, it's all rubber. So, and I can't, you know, I have to get it in the right place. Yeah, rubber feels like rubber. You don't know if it's the head rubber or the ear rubber or, yeah, cheek rubber. It wasn't it kind of a metallic green type of ointment? It seemed a little shimmery in a way.

It had a shimmer like zinc to me. Like zinc sublock. Yeah. But it was applied. so well on the ears that it honestly made me think that it almost seemed as if the Ferengis had dirt on their face

and if you rubbed it away, that's their real color underneath. You know what I'm saying? My brain did a little flip where I was, oh, is that his real coloring underneath? Because it was so well applied. It was kind of greenish blue or something. This is the real coloring. Oh, that's

the color. Okay. The color of your ointment, by the way, matched beautifully to your clothes to your costume. It was a nice color match. Yeah. It highlighted the color scheme you had going on. There you go. Cisco sees what Quark's doing. And Cisco just comes out and says to you, the answer still no. You don't even ask him. He's like, he gets it. He knows why you're here, what you're trying to do. He's like, the answer's still no. Yeah. Is this the offer? Did I mention I'm going to donate 2% of my net profits to the Bajoran Fund for Orphans? That's the offer.

Which he did before in the tennis game as well. He seems to like that charity a lot. Yeah, that's like the orphans. He really has strong feelings about orphans. It'd be a really funny scene if Cisco was doing some investigating and then he looks up the Bajoran Fund for Orphans. And this is like an LLC set up by Quark. He's just laundering money back to the Ferengi.

Right. Charity, huh? But we do learn in this what his ask is, which is he wants to sell merchandise over the monitors, which seems like Quark has had this brilliant epiphany. I can sell over the monitors. And my first thought was Amazon. He's like, he's coming up with the, you know, like an Amazon version on DS9.

But look at the things that he wants to sell. My God, when I heard that, I thought, this is a convention. It's sort of selling the join earrings. This is stuff you buy at conventions. Yes. Vulcan Idyk pins and Dorian jewelry. Yes. Yeah, that's funny.

It is convention stuff. Isn't it? Richard's, yeah. Now, Armand, do you remember, you did some funny nose breathing in this? Yeah. You did some of that. Was that allergies? You were playing allergies?

I have a line somewhere that says, you know, my nose is running. Oh, that's right. Cisco walks over to the boys. They're doing scans of this environment. They've analyzed the area. Jake says a lot of fancy science words. I don't know what he said. He's talking about the iron and the, you know, the makeup of the dirt.

and there's lead in the water or Cisco notices the lead in the water I think he points out oh there's lead but they say well we think it's just this area so they're doing their project yes really you know they're doing the science part of this

but Cisco's like you know wait on all this school stuff this assignment let's just go make dinner we're camping not just dinner but jambalaya yes yes Jake is very excited about that work not so much

not not no I'm No, I was like, Jumba what? Gamba what? But yes, the boys are having a blast. A little time cut, it's the end of the meal. You know, you hear the crickets in the background, the fire crackling. Was this on stage? This felt like it was on stage.

I don't remember which was on stage and which was in Descancer Gardens. I really was trying to remember looking at it, trying to figure out which is real, which is stage. I couldn't. I couldn't know. I would guess nighttime forest is easy to build on stage. I know the campfire was on stage. actually, now that I think about it, because the one thing I do remember, which I'm going to talk about in a moment, was on stage.

It is funny in this scene that Cork is complaining about all the bugs that are getting into his food. And then Cisco says, I thought the pharyngees liked eating bugs. And Corkes is like, certain bugs, frangie bugs, but not these alien bugs. Which shows his prejudice against humans. And I thought that was good writing. It's not just the humans that are prejudiced against the pharynge. The pharynge are obviously prejudiced against humans.

Yeah, the other way around. Well, now it goes to get quarks and more ointment. And Jake and Cisco lie back. Start looking at the stars. They reminisce about camping with Jake's mom, Jennifer. Lovely scene. Lovely sweet scene. They're really bonding in this scene.

I think Cisco says, we need to do this more often. It's just a real relatable father-son moment. And then suddenly quark screams off camera. His arm is on fire. What arm and did you do? You didn't do the fire. No, this is what I do remember. I said I would talk about it.

And now's the time. Sure. So I had a wonderful stunt in him, double named George, who happened to be Danger's brother-in-law, I think. And George was doing the stunt for me. So he's dressed up as quark. He has to stick his hand in the fire. And it's supposed to light up. And Danger and the rest of the stunt crew are surrounded around him in case anything goes wrong.

Well, lo and behold, something did go wrong. Oh, God. This is why I remember it was on the stage, because this I do remember. The fire wouldn't go out. The fire just kept going, and George's hand was in trouble. Oh, God. And they were able to put it out immediately. When after a few seconds, Danger realized this is way too much,

and he came over with a fire extinguisher, and the other guys kept cloths and the blankets, and they wrapped George's hand in the blanket, first putting the fire extinguisher foam on it, and they put out the fire extinguisher, immediately so that George was in no danger. And then Kim said, well, we can't use that shot. So we'll have to do it again.

And I was so impressed with George. George without a blink said, yep, let's do it again. And he had gotten that close to getting his skin burned. Yeah. And without a breath, without anything, yep, let's just do it again. And they did it again. And they got the take that they needed. I was such a fan of George's after that.

He did a lot of stuff for me, but this in particular, he definitely put his life in harm's way. That's particular kind of stunt. The way they do it, they put clothes underneath that they're supposed to protect. But if it was near his exposed hand, they would put gel, kind of a fireproof. They probably did. They probably did. Like a protective gel. But the fire wouldn't go out on the first take. It just kept going.

And those protections only last a certain number of seconds. They know exactly how long that protection will. last before the fire will be too much. So yeah, it's a dangerous bit to do. Wow. And I was standing there only because I'd said to them, they said, well, you don't have to watch this. I said, no, no, I want to see what George does so I can imitate that if they need me to. And so I was, I was a foot and a half away from where George, and I, you know, and when I saw those guys come rushing in, I went, whoa, this is not what me is supposed to be. Wow. So the second time went without a hitch? Perfectly.

Way out of Hitch. And George was my hero ever after that. Well, he's my hero because I will say on Voyager, I had to do a fire bid as well. I had a jetpack on my back. And we did the first take and my pants caught on fire, which was not planned. And we didn't get the shot, I don't think. But I did not offer to do it. I'm not doing this again.

You are not catching me on fire again. so George is much braver than me because I would not, you know, one time with a fire going wrong, I'm done. It would have been funny if you offered me up for the second time. Let Garrett do it. He'll go up there. Yeah, he's fine.

He's not burnt. Well, cork in our story, Quark catches on fires, arms on fire. Cisco comes in and the story wraps it up with a blanket or something, puts it out, and Quark just loses it. He hates everything about this camping trip. Blame Cisco for everything.

And then Nog gets really embarrassed and he kind of hisses or something. He gets a Ferengi. That's left over from not only next generation, but I sort of did that the first two episodes. I think I stopped right now. This episode stopped doing that. Yes. Okay. But so I'm sure Nag picked it up from me or from next generation.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did a very specific forangi thing, Storms off. Quark blames Cisco for all of the. misery. Do you talk about how everyone treats the Ferengi so badly? They're only nice to people like themselves. And you're kind of getting into that topic when a female alien runs up. Cork does say, tell me, Commander, would you allow your son to marry a Frankie female? And that is the point when the woman runs up. But that's a great way to bring it up. Yeah, you're definitely

setting up this idea of bias and prejudice and sort of, you know, superiority, for sure. This is when it became obvious to me that Ira and the writing staff were beginning to take my side on some issues. Not mine, not Armin's side, but quark side. Well, this is the first time you've kind of laid this topic out on the table that anyone's laid it out quite so bluntly. But you'd have to be blind. We've talked about it now for more than a year. You'd have to be blind not to see it. Not to see it.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, go back. It's not, Cisco. It doesn't hate me. Here it age me, but here it's you. Yes, she does. Well, this alien woman when she runs in,

first thing she does is she has an energy burp, basically, and she shoots this thing out and knocks Cisco back on his butt. Doesn't knock them out, but just knocks them back. And that's when Quark says, no, don't, don't shoot me, don't hurt me. Don't burp on me. Yeah, don't burp on me. Ery says, how many of them are there? And Cork's like, well, just two of us.

He goes, no, not you, the Jim Hedar. And this is the first mention of Jim and Hadar ever in D-Space 9. and Cisco and Cork have no clue. Cisco has no clue. Cork knows. Oh, that's right. Not about Jemadar. No, not about Jim Hedar.

He does not about the Dominion he knows about. But he doesn't know about the Jim Hedar yet at this point, right? Okay. Eris says, well, you better run. And that's when these Jemadar, they don't beam in. They shimmer in a way, yeah, which is kind of interesting, kind of. It's almost like they're cloaked in a way. Yes, and I thought I was the only shimmer man on the set.

Oh, nice. Isn't it a personal cloaking device, sort of, right, in a way? I guess, yeah. I read a note that you remember the episode Robbie with Tosk in it, right? Yes. Okay. So Tosk had an invisibility cloak as well, all right? And evidently the writers were implying that the same people who genetically engineered the Gem Hadar, the founders, also genetically engineered

Tosk to give to that race because they were part of the dominion. So there's some similarities. I'm looking at the original script. It literally, they wrote that connection into the original script. It says, the Bush's part suddenly for Gem Hadar soldiers shimmer, they use the word shimmer, into view. This is the original script, not a transcript. Right.

And then in parentheses, this is the same kind of invisibility effect used by Tosk in captive pursuit. In captive pursuit. Yeah. The thought behind this is that. the same people who breed the tasks as gifts to hunters breed the Gem Hadar as well. So, yeah, they are genetically engineered. Yeah, there's a big explanation in the script, which is unusual.

Usually they don't go into that kind of detail, but they talk about the Gem Hadar looking like mercenaries. Yeah, and especially they don't talk about it in the episode. These are all facts that we know just from reading the script. Maybe it was for the designers, for Dan Curry and all the people doing the special effects that go back to that episode. I didn't see what you did. Yeah, that makes sense. Here's a quick quote from Michael Westmore talking about the Gem Hadar makeup.

Quote, you start with the concept of the rhinoceros nose, but without a horn. If you put a horn on it, viewers would say, oh, rhinoceros. But what makes Star Trek so interesting is that you give the creature the same feel and meanness

by putting little horns all around the face. It makes them dangerous. If you bump into one, you're going to bleed. So you know automatically that you never get close to the Gem Hadar. I've read where that makeup seems to indicate dinosaurs as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it looks like the dinosaurs from the Voyager episode is, you know, in a way, their faces.

Well, rhinoceros, what's the triceratops? Or triceratops, yeah. The one with the horns here. Yeah, yeah. Very similar, too. Interesting. Well, they've got guns. They're pointing their guns at him.

The Jim Hidar are in there. You're in trouble. This is not going well. Not been a good day. The next thing that happens, I think, is that there's a lot of, little time passage and Jake and Nag return to the fire. Jake's calling for dad.

No answer. They do see some boot prints that they don't recognize on the ground. So Nag is freaking out in this scene. He's like he wants to go back to the runabout. He's scared. And Jake says, no, we got to help him. We got to track

them with this tricorder. So they kind of follow the footprints and head off to try to find Cisco and Quark. Aaron does this funny run when he runs after Jack. He's like, hey, wait for me. I don't know what he's doing something that's just, to me, very, very funny. Yeah, I'm sure he planned that.

Knowing Aaron, yeah, he probably planned that, yeah. Aaron's a jokester. Aaron loves doing that kind of stuff, so right up his alley. We reveal the containment area. That's the little force field circle that they're stuck in. And it looks like it's in a cave or underground, something like that. it's a big light circle it's like a big hula hoop

yeah yeah exactly quark is freaking out Cisco tells him to shut up in the scene I thought that was very rude I think he was right on to say that to quark actually cork was very loud and screaming

so I think if anything he can't think right now that's right that makes perfect sense I think quark deserved that yes yeah yeah because Cisco says quark shut up it's very blunt there's a lot of stress in here. Quirk blames Eress, but she's silent in this whole scene.

Not saying anything. Quark goes to try to deal with a force field. And Aris says, no, don't. First thing she says, don't do that. It will kill you if you touch it. Cisco comes to introduce himself, comes to talk to her. And they have this nice moment of shaking hands. I thought that moment was really very specific. And, you know. You mean ERIS and Cisco? Is it? Eris and Cisco. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is where she explains the Jim Hidar, the Dominion, all that stuff comes out from her. And this is where Cisco has never heard of the Dominion, but Quark has. Yeah.

And it's obvious to me in the performance that, yes, I've had several episodes where I've dealt with the Dominion, not one-on-one, but I've heard of them. So the question is, why hasn't Cisco heard of the Dominion? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, it seems like the Dominion has been thrown out in episodes. at least a couple of times before this.

Yeah, the one where we were selling Tullaberry wine and the Dominion is mentioned there. Yeah, he's the commander of the station. He should know all of this. He should know this. Yeah. Armin, in this scene, Aris, Molly Hagan talks about how she,

the Dominion came to her home world, the Curl Prime, Carrille Prime. And she refers to herself as a Kirill, basically. That's a made-up story then, correct? She's actually a Vorda. She's a Vorda. Okay. So Corrille is incorrect then what she was saying?

Well, I don't know. I mean, Romulus and Vulcan look pretty much the same. So maybe it's a different world, but to me it looks like a Borda, because that's what I'm most familiar with because of Jeff and Kitty. She does explain about the Dominion, the telekinetic powers that her people had is why the dominion came. They thought they could use those telekinetic powers, you know, make some use of it. and they killed all the leaders, occupied their planet,

and the only reason she escaped because she was on a freighter at the time. This is her story. And we believe her. I believed her at this point. I was like, oh, she seems like a victim of these guys. Molly Hagan does a very good job of being very, very sympathetic.

Yeah, she's great. I must say this telekinetic powers, if the krill and the Vorda are basically the same, the Vorda never had that telephobic. telekinetic power. Never. They had another thing, which is quite wonderful, but not this. Now, maybe I'm mistaken.

Maybe the Vord and the Creel are not the same, so they sure look the same. She could be, I mean, we don't know this. Yeah, she's going to turn out to be kind of a con woman, but she could be making all this up. But at this moment, Cisco's believing it. The audience is believing everything she says. She does seem sympathetic here. And she says that this collar is suppressing her telekinetic powers. That's why she can't use it.

And Cisco at the end of the scene says, well, maybe we can get this collar off. That's how we end this scene. So far, I'm buying her story, by the way. Molly graded it. The story seems to make sense. I had no idea of the turn of the end. I thought for some reason when I saw Molly, I was like, she did Voyager, didn't she? And I'm looking through her credits, which are numerous, by the way.

I mean, she's done a lot of stuff. And I found the Orville. So she was in other sci-fi, but yeah, she was in the episode's Firestorm and Home on DeOarville. Yeah, she's great. She did a lot of comedy. She did a lot of sitcoms. We come back to the boys' story. They're searching the forest.

Jake's using his tricorder. I love when Knox says, do you know how to use that thing? And Jake's like, yeah, I think I do. It's just their youth is so fun to watch. Their earnestness. And they do find the cave entrance. they see some Jem Hidar guarding it. I think Nog at the end says,

I don't think they'll look any friendly or up close. So they don't want to go up close to these guys. No. They look dangerous. Back at the containment area, Quarks yelling to the guards. And even Ery says, do we have to take him with us?

No respect here, Armin. I just can't believe it. Even the guest star. How dare you, Molly Hagan? Ah, but secretly she was enjoying it. Exactly. Secretly, she's like, I love being on set with Armin.

Yes, exactly. This is my dream come true. Oh, my goodness. This is where Cisco defends Quark, though, in this scene. Yeah. The turn has happened during the commercial. Yeah. All of a sudden, Cisco wants Quark to get everyone's attention.

The turn has happened about here. And there's something that would happen in a moment as well that will help that turn. But yes, something has changed. And I, for one, am grateful for him. Yeah, I liked it. I liked it a lot. Especially because you set it up earlier in that frustrating scene when you're like, you know, you look down on us. You don't treat us like everybody else.

And so you've already kind of brought this up and he's starting to turn. I like it. Cisco says, yeah, quark's hard to ignore. I hope so. Yes. That's when talactalon comes in, shuts off the force field. Cisco tries to find out why they're being held. They still haven't told them anything.

And Talactolan just says the founders want what you held here. Ery says the founders don't exist. They're a myth. So she's kind of playing good cop, bad cop in this scene. I have a question for both of you. If you're Talactolan, why on earth would you turn off the force field and walk into what is arguably three to one? Okay. Why would you, wouldn't you just stand outside and have that conversation without turning it off?

I don't get it. I'm a little confused. Yeah. There are little things like that. Throughout this episode, they're like, yeah, just little tiny things that you're like, huh? Because if the force field is off, this is Cisco's big chance to escape. Exactly. And Cisco's a good fighter.

We've seen him fight hand-to-hand in a lot of other episodes. He's great. Yeah, exactly. And it is three to one. You're right. If they made something of a point of saying, well, with the force filled up, you can't hear inside or something like that. And that makes sense. But other than that, no way to turn it off.

Why would you? These are prisoners. that don't want to be there. So they might try to jump you. I think the reason they turned it off because telactalon comes in and quark is kind of mouthing off of it, doesn't talactolon throw you to the ground?

No, he does something to his chest. I'm not quite sure what that is, which makes him crumble. Yeah, come to the ground. Yeah, I think they had written that that talactalon grabs him, so he had to come inside, had to turn the force field off.

But he didn't grab me by the neck, which was very nice of it. Yeah. I almost felt like, because, you know, we do hear, that the Dominion have been studying

and gathering information on everybody from the other side of the wormhole. So I feel like Talaqtalan knew of a Ferengi pressure point on your chest

where he went right for that which disabled you. It is surprising that he knows what a Ferengi is. That's got to be part of the plot line as he does about everything else he speaks about.

But the audience has to go wait, wait, how does he know all that? Which of course, Cisco asks. I thought, that was very good writing. Yeah, very good writing because they do know a lot of details.

Without ever saying anything, just by inference, you go, oh, right. And it is kind of funny that his, it's a bit comedic that he was hoping to meet Klingons. Why isn't Michael Dorn in this scene? Where's Michael Dorn? Yeah, that's what he wanted. Yeah, he really wants to meet the Klingon. Since you're not a Klingon, he takes off, he leaves and turns the containment field back on. And isn't it, I've just thought of this.

Isn't this wonderfully similar that his disdain for the humans is comparable to the human disdain for the Ferengi? Yes. Yes. Yeah. They're all starting to feel, you know, Cisco's starting to feel the Ferengi experience. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Which may give him pause later in that big speech that Quark has talking about, if you really think about it, where, look at all.

the things that humans have been involved in, right? And then maybe that sets that up, too. Yeah. It's all part of the theme for sure. Back in the, uh, in the runabout, Jake and Nog beam in. Nog's still freaking out. Jake tries to locate his dad and cork to beam them up, but the computer can't get a lock. Yeah. Then they want to fly back to the station to get help, but they don't have any authorization codes. Uh, suddenly a ship is heading from the planet. They see on sensors that, one of the bad guys ships is heading what they think is right to them right towards them. Nog freaks

out. He tries every command he's ever heard of. I love this when Nog says, fire phasers, launch torpedoes and the escape pods, which is hilarious because you're not in the escape pod, but you're going to launch him anyway? It's just trying every command he's ever heard.

But the ship passes, bad guys pass right past them. Because they go to warp. That's why. Then Jake has the idea. He says, you know, Miles O'Brien showed me a few things. Maybe if I try to remember that, I can get this shuttle to work. I can disengage the autopilot or something so that he can do direct commands or something. So he does know something about running a runabout. Yes. Yes. You know, I'd like in the first scene, I'd like to learn how to run and run about it. So he knows something about it. He does. There was that prior episode we reviewed,

Robbie where Keiko and Miles are going on their vacation, right? And Keiko's right next to him, just type it away. And I'm like, wait a minute, she's a botanist. Everyone on DS9 can operate a gosh darn runabout. This happens later in the episode as well. I went, no, that doesn't make any sense. Am I right? Yes, you're absolutely right.

I mean, we've seen episodes where Brian is navigating the ships through space. He's an engineer. He's not a pilot. Yeah, he's not supposed to be able to fly one either, is he? No. No. Okay. Well, we go back to the station, back to Ops. They're waiting for Cisco to return. Suddenly a ship comes through the wormhole. Go to Yellow Alert, I think. Immediately there's a reaction. Telaxalon beams into Ops, though. Miles puts a containment field around him. Telactelon stays still for a minute. He tells them that they've detained Cisco indefinitely. And then he walks right through the force field. Okay. If that's not threatening, I don't know what is. The force field was like nothing to him. It's like he walked through a, curtain it was like yep i'm here i am that was a shower curtain that didn't do anything to me so yeah scary yeah and then he hands kira a pad that has a list of all the ships that they that have

entered their territory that have been destroyed very long list but kira says wait a minute where'd you got this pad and he reveals uh we got it from the pejoran colony in the gamma quadrant new bejore that we destroyed which she talked about earlier we've seen a whole episode The McKee is about that episode. It's about those people. He says, I hope we won't have to repeat that lesson on you guys. And then he beams out to his ship. They try to track to the ship.

That doesn't work. Boom, he's gone. So he like pops in, pops out. And they can't do anything about it. Well, remember, he shows that pad because of what Dax says. Dach says, you're making a mistake. If you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the gamma quadrant. And DeLuctalon's like, we anticipated that response.

And that's when he walks through and says, here's that all the people we've already destroyed. Because we already knew you're going to say that you're not going to stop coming into our territory. So we've already, it's like a chess move. I found that exchange really telling. When I finished watching the episode, it's that scene that kept replaying in my mind. Dax, you know, a very warm and cuddly character, says that's not going to stop us from exploring the gamma quadrant. We are learning that the Dominion has ruled in the Gamma Quadrant.

And what she's saying is, we're the Federation. We can go anywhere we want. Yeah. We don't care about boundaries. It's a little entitled. Yes, very entitled. We're going to go in there and we're going to explore your world and your space. And we have a right to do that.

And really, if you think about it, they have a right to protect their territory. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yep. This is, the Federation is not just a science organization. It's a military operation as well. And we have a right to keep your military from coming into our space. That I think most Star Trek viewers will not think about. Yeah, right. Because we would think Federation can go wherever we want. Yeah, they're the good guys. Right after that is when the, when Keo says to her, you may,

have you ever thought about serving on a starshoot? Because there is a sense of entitlement. There There's a sense of, yes, of course, looking for answers about knowledge and science and all that. Yes, yes. But there's also a sense of we have the right to go where we want to go. And I think the Dominion and the Jam Hadar have a certain justice. And what they say is, you stay on your side of the wormhole and you'll be fine. Now, whether that's true or not, we don't know. But there's some reasoning in that.

Stay on your side of the border. Very fair point. A very fair point. You stay on your side of the border and we won't. But when you start making incursions, like you took over a world, the Bajorans took over a world on our side of the wormhole, you have no right to do that. There is some right to that. If you get out of the mindset of, oh, no, the Federation is always right.

Did you talk about this kind of stuff when you were making the show? No. Having some distance now and having, you know, played the other for so long on this show. show, I sort of went, whoa, there's some justice, righteousness, and what he's saying. Yeah. With this distance, now there's new dialogue or there's new thoughts. Yeah, and we're living in a world where this has happened. Oh, yeah.

But this very thing is happening. It's always been happening, but we're getting it every night on the news here. I think it's interesting, Armand, that you say you didn't talk about this when you're making because you as actors had the assumption, we're the good guys in this story. You have to have some distance, like Garrett was saying, some time or some distance. to kind of look at it and go, oh, wait a minute, you know, we might have been good guys, but that wasn't a good thing we did. No.

The founders, the Dominion, have all the right in the world to say, yeah, well, if you do that, we're going to bring our Jim Hedar. Deal with that, you know. What we find out at the end of the episode is just practical statesmanship. We're going to get people in there to give us information. Yeah. Well, we come back into the cave containment area. Cisco is trying to get the necklace or the whatever that thing.

bracelet bracelet thing isn't cisco doing the first part of it he's trying to get to the actual inner workings and then he hands it off to cork to actually pick it get through that part it's a two it's a two person but it but my point being is there's collaboration here between cisco and cork i mean they're becoming a team in a way not just yet but almost instantly after this yes yes yeah they're definitely there's a progression which is nice to see yeah they start kind of working together and seeing the value that each of them offers. Right, because as Quark, I probably was thinking, why are you messing with that locking system

when you know that I'm an expert at taking locks apart? It's already been established. That's always been established. And then Cisco must know that. I'm really good at bypassing locks. Why has he spent any time doing that? Because I want to get the casement off. That's his line.

And okay, fine, you're the strong man, you get the casement on. Right, right. But once that's off, you should really turn it over to the expert. Yeah. Well, and we've also established the other expert on par with Quark is Rom. Rom can get into a lot of stuff as well. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right.

He has a skill with locks. He's better. He's better at it. Yeah. Well, Cisco's working on this thing, the lock. Yeah. And he tells Aris that, you know, when they are freed, that she can come back to the station with them when they get out.

Starfleet would love her to come back and tell them everything about the Dominion. And this is where he hands it off to Quark to pick. But before that, Molly has a very good thing she does. He says, yes, you can come back to the station with us. And because we now know the end of the episode, she looks down and then looks up and said, you know, I'm happy to do that.

That look down actually is psychologically true without telling the audience anything. Oh. Yeah, I didn't make that connection, but now that you bring it up, I remember it. She doesn't want him to see her eyes. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Going, yay! You're going to take me back. Excellent. That was my plan. Trojan horse. Yeah. Yeah. Quark starts to pick the lock now, though.

And this is where cork has been stewing a bit and starts to vent. It starts with Cisco saying, maybe you better take a look at this. So Cork hasn't started to pick any lock yet. But when he says, you take a look at this. That's when Cork says, okay, Cork be quiet. Cork, stand watch. Quirk, pick a lock.

All you ever do is order me around. And that begins this huge monologue about how humans used to be a lot like Frankie greedy, acquiring things, interest in profit. Acquisitive. Yeah, inquisitive. But then he talks about how humans in their history are far worse than Frangy, bringing up slavery, concentration camps. interstellar wars nothing in our past approaches that kind of barbarism so we get a little lesson here about phrenge on franginar i remember this distinctly and i was reminded of it when i was watching the episode when quark says slavery there's fire in avery's eyes yeah there is fire

and i remember being slightly intimidated by that oh wow feeling that energy right Yeah. But I remember that just the, and you can see it in the reaction. He did it every time. After Quark's speech in which he concludes that the Ferengi are less barbaric than humans and thus better, the stage direction said that while Cisco is not at all convinced, Quark's word give him food for thought. According to Iris Stephen Bear, quote,

we were going into the end of the second season and it was time to lay to rest this long time feeling that the Ferengi were the failed villains of the Star Trek universe. I wanted people to see them as something else. And if we could show that Cisco, whose character has a lot of weight, would take what Quark says seriously, then the audience would take it seriously. Thank you, Ira. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, very well said. I call these moments my Spock moments where the alien talks to the human and tells them how humanity is not as pristine as they think they are. I'm looking at the original script here. I don't know if it's the final page. pages. Because I'll read it, what it says here. Quark says, the way I see it, humans used to be a lot like Ferengis, greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of the

part of your past you'd rather forget. And Cisco says, Quark, we don't have time for this. Quark continues. But you're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi, a hundred-year war, Auschwitz, the Tarsus Four massacre. No slavery there? Nope. Because slavery came before Auschwitz. And it didn't say Auschwitz. It said it said uh concentration camps yes it comes so then you're reading an earlier version yeah it must have been an earlier version and they must have put out pages yeah because this this is probably the first draft humans used to be a lot worse than the pharynge the hundred years war auschwitz tarsus four massacre we had nothing in our past that even approaches that kind of barbarism you see we're nothing

like you were better now if you go excuse me i have a long to pick so it did change this speech yeah so now my question is despite what I just said before did CISCO did Avery Brooks ask for slavery to be put in so that he could have that reaction I wouldn't be surprised because if you're going to list some of the worst things that have happened to humans on this planet slavery has been

not just slavery in the United States of America that was horrific and tragic and went on Yeah, should never have existed. Slavery's been a part of our past. Back to the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Egyptians, everybody. So that's a question. Interesting.

Sometime I will ask Ira if he remembers. Yeah. Because my mind suddenly goes, it would be very much like Avery to call up Ira and say, you have to insert slavery in there. Yeah, if you're going to list the worst things that have happened, you've got to, yeah. For sure.

Interesting. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. Good call. Well, we go back to the runabout, and the shot starts on the floor with all these isolinear chips. There's probably not that many isolinear chips in that entire vessel, okay? But it made me laugh.

Did you think it was too much, Armin? Yes. You did? There's a couple of things in this episode. It made me laugh. My own performance sometimes and certainly some of the things like that. Like that. Wouldn't you think that that thing couldn't even run at this point?

They pulled every damn chip out. There should be no lights on. There should be no lights before. The air has disappeared. They've lost it all. Well, Miles does later on, Miles says, I can't take this thing into battle. Nothing's working. So they do track this.

They do track it. So it's tracked later. Okay. Yes, it is tracked later. But Jake's trying to bypass the computer system and turn off the autopilot. So he's pulling out all these chips. And Nog tries to help, says, pull this one out. I have a hunch about this one.

Jake pulls it out. And the warp course starts melting down 10. So he puts it back in. And then Jake says something. I remember a round thingy that Miles showed me. So he reaches up underneath, pulls the round thingy out. And then, yes. Then he tells the computer to head back to the station.

The computer says, nope, autopilot's out. Can't go anywhere. Right. So they just don't seem to be having any luck. But Jake says, you know, we're going to have to fly this ourselves. I guess we have to just, yeah, try and fly it ourselves. I love when that happens later on. So he gets his first wish from the first scene.

Ah, yes. Yes, wanting to fly the runabout. There it is. He's doing it. Rob, are you talking about this shot of the Odyssey? That is the same shot that they used when Picard showed up in the first episode. Is it really? The Enterprise D docked right there.

It's exactly the same shot. So it's very funny. That docking port is reserved only for Starship. Starfleet ships, yes. Galaxy class only, yeah. There's a sign that says that Galaxy class only. Yeah, like you know I will see signs

to say like a compact cars only right because you don't want a big one. That one just says galaxy class only. That's funny. Well, the captain is there. How do you pronounce his name? Keio. Keo.

Keo. Like a Keo plan. Uh-huh. Okay. So Keo's there. says that he's going to suspend all the traffic through the wormhole until they can investigate this Jim Hedar thing. Dax is insisting that they rescue Cisco.

And by the way, Dax mentioned in the earlier scene something about her relationship with Keio. Cisco says, oh, yeah, you guys, he thinks you're a handful or something like that. So this relationship is set up in that first scene with Cisco when they're going through the updates. Well, Keio's there. He's the traffic stopped.

Dax is insisting that they help rescue. She's a little uppity. I don't know how to put it. But she's got a bit of a like with him in particular. She seems to be a little bossy. With Keo is what you're saying? So she's giving him attitude? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. Yeah. She's giving him a bit of attitude. Okay. Which I think is set up because when I saw it, it was like, wow, where did this come from with Dax and this, you know, and he's kind of being sarcastic with her. And they seem to have a history. history. And then I remembered, oh, didn't they mention him in the first scene? So I went back to that

brief update scene when Jake comes in and says, hey, dad, nogg's coming with us. This is set up in that scene, but it's very brief. Okay. So when you say history, you mean one of Dax's former hosts, right? Yes. Yes. Exactly. Like Curzon Dax is what you're saying. Yes, exactly. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. Let me find it. Okay. So in, in, in. And the scene where in the commander's office, when they're getting the update, Kira's talking about the Bolian freighter that's due. Another group of settlers, the new irrigation system. Yes.

And then Cisco says, when's the Odyssey due back from the Cardassian border? Kira says three days. Cisco says, looks to Dax, amused, turns to Dax. It's a shame I'll have to miss your reunion with Captain Keough. Then Dax defensive. I'm seven times as old as Kio, and he treats me like I'm some kind of And then Cisco says, Lieutenant laughs. And Dax says, don't you find him just a little arrogant?

So that is what's setting up how she behaves later on. Yeah, that little, that brief little exchange. Makes sense. Yeah. Anyway, Dax insists they help rescue Cisco. Keo says, you guys aren't trained for battle. You can't go. Hello?

Perfect sense. Rationality. Yeah. Yes. And then he's convinced because Bashir steps up and says, we fought the marquee. Yeah. Like that, the doctor is saying, we're good soldiers.

We fought the maquis. He was not very impressed. But he does agree to let them retrofit the runabouts with photon torpedoes. And he takes off. It seems pretty easy to convince him that they can just take these taxi cabs, basically. That's what a runabout really is. And I, as an audience member, I'm going, so let me get this right. Cisco's a prison.

Kira's going off to save Cisco. Dax is going with Kira. Bashir, the doctor, is going with, and we're about to find out in the next scene that Odo is going with them as well. Who's running the station? Doesn't somebody have to be there? Rom. Does it somebody?

Yeah, Ron is running the station. Morn. If Jem Hadar have access to the station, now more than ever, has to be someone in the rear guard looking after the station so that it isn't taken over. And there's no one, you know, not even the Jim Hedar, if all the Starflea people disappear, why don't the Kardashians come back and take over the station? Somebody's got to run the station. Yeah, they all leave.

Isn't that why they created Riker? So the captain could stay on the bridge, where's Riker would go off. Number one went off and did the adventures. Wasn't that the original purpose of Riker? And here we have, we have, Kira should be running the station. She should be left there. She should be left there. That's right.

Absolutely. Well, speaking of Kira, the next scene in the corridor, Odo is briefing some security team. His stand-in. Is that who it was? Yes. That was not funny. Well, he's briefing the security guys. Kira shows up and he sends them off.

And I'll say before we get into the scene, this felt like. a huge shift in their relationship. Oh, my God. It had been little, little bits of maybe looks at most. Yeah. But this felt like, whoa, they're really kind of opening up to each other in a way that I had never seen before. It almost seemed like at the end of their lines, you could have tagged on, my beloved, my beloved, over and over again. Yes.

She tries to talk Oto and staying on the ship to be safe. She's worried about him. Yeah. And he wants to come help look for quark. She's like, I thought you hated quark. And he says, I do, but I don't want him to suffer at the hands of the dominion. Right. And then Kira says, yeah, I feel the same way.

No, she doesn't. No, she doesn't. No, she does. They both seem to be softening to quark a little bit, but they're definitely opening up to each other, this vulnerability that I thought is very sweet. And again, what is the purpose of Odo leaving the station? what is the purpose there's no purpose at all

I don't remember I should I don't remember what he has to do with this mission in the neck till the end except that he's there he doesn't do anything there's no purpose for him to be there he takes

he takes over controls of the runabout excuse me we've got a Bajoran shapeshifter who knows how to run a federation runabout where did that happen So he should have stayed back on the station to run it. Kira could have left, right?

That's right. Kira shouldn't have left either, but Odo? Odo doesn't. And this idea of him saying, giving the impression that there's more to their relationship between Quark and Odo. Okay, I get that. It's lovely. Thank you very much. And I don't really see in Nana's performance that much of a shift.

With Cork, with her attitude with Cork. Yeah. As you were saying it, I remember thinking, you ain't seen nothing yet. I feel it. I feel it. This feels very obvious that we're the direction, the show's heading, and specifically the direction where these two are heading. It feels very clear to me. We go inside the runabout Orinoco first.

Orinoco. Yep. And I guess we're in the, yeah, they come through the wormhole. The galaxy class, what is it, The Odyssey? Yeah, with the two little runabouts underneath its wings, baby runabouts. The Ornoko and the Mekong. They're basically, you know, it's the suspense beat of waiting for the Gem Hadar to show up. They're scanning, they're looking, everybody's waiting, nothing yet.

When they're talking to Keio on the bridge, I immediately, in that view screenshot or whatever, the monitor shot, I was like, that's the TNG bridge. see the little railing in the background. Because TNG just wrapped up, I think, at this point. Right. They had just finished shooting their finale, so that set was free. Yeah. I'm not sure if it was free, because they were shooting a movie. Oh, that's right.

So it's possible they were using that set, but probably not. Yeah. We cut over to the Rio Grande where Jake and Nongar, I love this scene. He's trying to manually fly the runabout, and the camera's floating like this, And they both keep leaning to one side or the other. And he basically says, how hard can it be to fly this thing? And Jake, like, looks at them, are you kidding me? It's hard.

Yeah. I just loved it. We get a little time information. Nog says, but at this speed, it'll take weeks to get home. And Jake says, no, actually, it'll take about five years at this point. And I thought of you guys. Yeah, exactly. It's the premise of our show.

of our show. Yes, Jake and Nog have their own series five years to get home and they just do this. They just do that the whole way. And never get out of orbit.

Yeah, they're still staying in orbit. It does cut outside of the, into space to see the shuttle and you see it just kind of wobbling back and forth. Very funny. Oh, very funny. The Odyssey comes out of warp right in front of them.

They're doing their little wobbles. The Odyssey goes, who pops out of war. warp. Nog screams. Not screams. Very funny. Jake celebrates. Miles pops up on their monitors. He says, come to a complete stop, Jake. I'm going to be aboard. I'll take over. He does. And he reassures them in the scene. We're going to find your dad. Yeah, I thought that was a very nice, lovely moment from Cullum. You know, in acting class,

we're always reminded. When you start a scene, remember where you're coming from before. you've opened the door right and i got that great sense of that from column that he that he'd just come from being on one place and was now entering a new place a great sense of that yeah that kind of detail in his work it's great i did love when he pops in and he says he says uh having trouble getting out of orbit and nod goes how'd you know how'd you know what what gave you that impression that we're having any trouble. Was it the floating and the wobbling? We go back to the containment area next, I think.

Quark is still working on Aris's collar, trying to pick the lock. She's very annoyed. Like everybody else with Quirk, it's getting old people. Robbie Wunneris says, You're hurting me. I'm just picturing Molly Hinggoor.

You're hurting me and the whispering, I love Armin. He's so close to her. You're amazing, Arbit. You're amazing. But don't get any of that orange makeup on me. Right, right, exactly. He finally does break the thing.

Walla, it's off. Yeah. And he looks at this collar and says, you know, maybe I could sell this, you know, back home. Or there may be some profit in this or something. He says that there? Yeah. Yeah, he does, yeah. Okay.

There's a rule of acquisition. A good Ferengi can smell profit in the wind. I think he's following that rule. Oh, okay. Got it. Yeah. She does the energy burp right there. She does the old ball of energy burp, and they're out.

Cisco fights the first Jem Hedar that walks in, grabs a gun, shoots him, tosses the gun to quark. Yeah. Who will learn in this scene is a great shot because as he's secretly grabbing the collar that he doesn't want to leave. Yeah. Another guard comes in and he shoots that guard, saves Cisco. Now, this is why it worked because that second guard was shimmering in. So he was a shimmerman. So it took a shimmerman to shoot the shimmerman.

To shoot the shimmerer. Yeah, the shimmer. Very, very good. But yeah, it did bother me that Quark was that good a shot. Because we will learn that he doesn't handle firearms. He just doesn't do that. So either he got very lucky or there was a continuity problem there. Yeah.

Yeah, you were a good shot. One shot took him out. It would have been interesting if they cut on Quark and Quirk had this sort of like, oh, I don't want to fire. I think she just pulls it and it just hits it by chance, you know, kind of a thing. Maybe that would have been more on point, you know. Now it generates the next moment, which is a good one, where Cisco says thanks and Quark says, you're welcome.

I know that at that moment, I'm not giving away any secrets by saying that my relationship with Avery was professional, not friendly, but profession. Right. Yeah. And for him to actually say thanks to me. Now, granted, we're acting. We're character. Yes.

But for him to say thanks, it's genuine when I said, you look. Oh, nice. I think that exchange both ways felt genuine. The way that Avery said thanks was with Augusto to it. It did, yeah. It felt sincere. Genuine heart. The evolution we had as fellow actors.

Yeah. I felt that in that reading. I think Avery does that a lot. I feel like there's a lot of reality that is, that is, you know what am I trying to say combined with the story that's written

he often puts he interweaves his real life with the character life correct yeah yeah yes which is I think the crux the reason the foundation for why we were always just professional with each other

off camera yeah is that our characters were such at loggerheads for the entire seven years really that that's what where he placed me.

And if that made his performance the better, then he did the right thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there was a lot of interweaving, great word, of real life and story life that Avery does often.

I could feel that. You feel it with Jake. The real life of that relationship is, you know, elevates those scenes with him in Surach. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

So Quark's a good shot. She takes out the guy. We go back to the runabouts. On the Orinoco, Bashir picks up three ships and attack formations. We know we're going to get into a big battle. Back on the Rio Grande, this is where Miles says the Rio Grande has too many disabled systems. I can't help here. I got to head back.

But he does ask Keo if he can head near the planet and try to locate Cisco and Quark. Maybe they can beam them back. Keo says, all right, 10 minutes. I looked at the time left in the episode there was about eight or nine minutes so I was like oh I see 10 minutes that's how much we have left of the episode right

nothing works on this ship right that's why he's ducking out he has no defenses they're under attack I understand the desire to get Cisco and Quark absolutely but is that really a good decision are you risking the people

on the runabout for the last lives there was another runabout that's there for the same reason there are two runabouts the second runabout could have done that just as well yeah should not he have let the the disabled chip limp back to the worm just get back yeah get back he should have said no you go to the and we'll get the other shit to do that yeah probably especially since keel was prepared to go in just with the odyssey he wasn't even thinking these runabouts were going to be there at all correct that's right That's right.

Because he felt that that would do the job. He thought that Galaxy Class Starship is no match for anyone else. I'm sorry. A Galaxy Class Starship is going to be superior than any other vessel that they're going to encounter. So that's his feeling. Yeah. Basically at this point, the Gem Hadar show up in their ships. There's a big space battle.

I don't even know how to summarize this, but it's a huge space battle. The Odyssey is getting its butt kicked. The Gem Hadar are just destroyed. But not the runabouts. But not, yeah, the runabouts are immune to the Jemadar for some reason. Did you like the Jemadar ships? What did you think of it? Yeah, yeah.

Because to me, when you saw the underside, it just reminded me of a firefly. Because the way they had the, they had little lights on the bottom. It almost looked like an insect. Like they were three insects flying at the at the galaxy class starship. Just the way that they had these neon. Do you see that? The underside of it is what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's some lights or something under there.

There's some vertical lights on the tailland there that make it look like an Insect, basically. By the way, I want to say, Armin, having done our Voyager rewatch podcast, we did find out out about CGI and when CGI came into the TV shows. They had not really used much CGI at all. It was not, it had not evolved. So this was all models. So they probably built models at this point, because I don't think we got CGI in our

show very limited stuff. It was very late in the series, season five, six, seven. So at this point, before Voyager, I doubt that this was CGI, these ships. I bet they were models. Practical models. Practical models, yeah. They don't understand these weapons, though. They cannot defend themselves on the Odyssey.

The shields, they're invading the shields, just bypassing the shields. Yeah, bypassing the shields. They're destroying our systems. We don't know what these weapons are. Changing the frequency is doing nothing. Because typically on a starship that is a Federation starship, That's how you get around it. Like even on Voyager, when the board were attacking us, we'd switch frequencies, but then eventually the board would adapt.

These Gemadar need no time to adapt. They immediately, they go right through everything. They're just like cutting through cheese with a hot knife, basically. They're a formidable enemy. They are definitely, absolutely. We go back to the forest. In the forest, we have another long lens shot, probably shot at the same time, that very first shot of you guys walking. they probably just left the cameras in the same spot it looked like a long run like

you know quark stops at one point in this you know when you guys are running right work is exhausted eris does say again let's leave him right she's a she's a jerk to quark she doesn't need quark no yeah true she doesn't need quark yeah work's expendable she needs to get she needs to get avery and she out out and back to the to the alpha quadrant well when she says let's leave quark cisco says absolutely not quark got us out of there so he's this is where he's standing up i know i like that yeah there's a transition here yeah and again citing ira's a quote that you read yeah this is where ira has is finally saying enough already the ferengi are to be treated as quasi equals yeah according to robert hewitt

Wolf, the Dominion knew about the Federation long before the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole and had plans to deal with it when the time came. However, the Dominion did not expect contact with the Alpha Quadrant for another 200 years, which is explained in a later episode that's about to come up with the wormhole providing immediate access between the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants. Wolf said the Dominion's plans for the Federation were disrupted, which explains why it chose to observe and gather information until the end of the second season, which is right now.

Interesting. Without giving anything away, the Dominion was indeed aware of the Alpha Cochoprette and had already made some excursion into it. Oh, interesting. I got it.

I won't give that away. Okay. Just at the end of the scene, when Quark actually, this nice moment, Cisco stands up for Quark, we're not leaving behind, absolutely not.

Quark says, thank you. I'm glad someone around here appreciates me, is the line you had there. I love that. two lines to me suggest a really big change. I don't know if it's going to last, but at least in this episode, we do feel like there's been a significant change in that perspective.

So I liked it a lot. Then you get beamed up. All three get beamed up. In a shimmering effect. Yes. Cisco Cork and Eris beam in. And I made a note here in the runabout where Miles has beamed them in. Why did they beam in ERIS? They didn't have a conversation. Cisco didn't say, hey, O'Brien, I've got this third person with us who's safe, beam them on. Miles would have found Cisco's life signs and Quark's life signs. That's the only people they know. That's true. He could be beaming in a Jim Hedar.

It's true. It should have been a life sign that he didn't recognize. Yeah. It should have been a life sign he wouldn't recognize. Right. He has no idea. That's a good, good catch. That's a good catch, dude.

Yeah. I was like, O'Brien doesn't know about eras. Why is he bringing her on board? Like if they had even a brief conversation, I could buy it. Nobody on the D-Space 9 station has even come across a Vorda at this point. So no clue, not at all. Wow. But anyway, a little, that's a flaw that I noticed.

But Jake is overjoyed. Nog hugs Quark. That's very sweet. But then cork grabs his ear and says, no more field trips, takes them out. There are lots of things in this episode that I really like. great deal. I don't think we needed that. Yes. Okay. We've just been through something enormously serious and we're going to continue to be through something serious. I don't, I think that was just too much comic relief. I think. Yeah, this little beaming them in, there's comic relief with

Cisco's line where he says, well, this is turned into some science project, huh? It's, it's very lighthearted in this moment. I understand that. Yeah. Because his father's son and he wants to take the danger away from his son. It makes me sense. True. Right. I think Nog and Quark should have been embraced in some sort similar to that. That's a fair point. I don't mind that. Armin, I didn't take it as a comedic, even though it was a little comedic. I didn't take it as that, though.

Really? Yeah, no, I felt like he hugs you, Uncle Quark. And you do hug him back. But then reality comes in, which is you were in great peril. It was so dangerous that that's when you got serious and you were being an uncle. You disciplined him. You're like, you're not doing this again, buddy. There should have been a realization that an acceptance of what just happened

and then move on to something else. That's something I missed or the director missed or the writers missed, but I put it on myself. I should have done that. Okay. Interesting. I want to go to the script again in the Rio Grande. Jake rushes over to embrace his father.

Dad, this has turned into some science project, Jake, huh? Nag, Uncle Quark. Quark, it says, immediately angry in parentheses. And then it's the writer's problem. There hasn't been a change or growth in that relationship as well. Exactly. That's very well put. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think you're right. It was a missed opportunity. And it is the writers because it's, it's, the stage direction says immediately you're angry. So we go out to the Mekong, the runabout Mekong. We do see some space shots and see that these Jem Hadar ships are enormous, much bigger than the runabouts. And is this where somebody says to Hoto, I'm going to take care of it. My controls are dead.

Yes. And then Odo takes over. I go, where did he get the skill to do this? He's an officer, but you're an officer on a, you know, on a mining station. He's a shapeshifter. He's a shapeshifter. Not only is about the panels running the controls, but he has to be able to maneuver and maneuver during a battle during a gunfight, you know. And these things just got photon torpedoes put on them.

They were just retrofitted. That's not even something he could have trained for. So he shapeshifts into the form of a runabout pilot. Yes. And shapeshift is intelligence as well. His intelligence, exactly. Back on the Odyssey Bridge, Keio hears they have Cisco, but he says he's in trouble, tells everybody to head back.

And on the Orinoco, Bashir and Kira see the Gem Hadarship heading straight for the Odyssey. So they're watching this. They try to help. But this Gem Hadarship basically. kamikazis into the Odyssey, big explosion, dazzling ball of fire, and our team just sits stunned. Oh, everyone's stunned. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, yeah. The Enterprise has just blown up.

Yeah. I'm sure the writers love that. Yes, and it's the end of TNG's TV run. Let's blow up an enterprise. The choice to make the Odyssey a galaxy class starship was to demonstrate. that the Gem Hadar could have destroyed the Enterprise D had the ship appeared in the episode. And to make the Dominion threat all the more terrifying, according to Robert Heward Wolf, we wanted to show the long-term fans how dangerous these guys were.

And it's my belief that if that had been the Enterprise and not the Odyssey and Picard, rather than Keio in command, it still wouldn't have survived. Wolf also stated, we had this crazy idea to blow up a ship that looked just, just like the Enterprise as our season two finale. And that kind of implied something. So in a way, it's sort of like, you guys are finally done, we're finally on our own,

screw you, we're going to blow up your TNG ship as well. So it is very, very, very funny. And it's kind of an inside thing for the writers to do that in a way. Yeah. But the funny thing was when they were advertising that episode of DS9 on TV, TNG fans were freaking out

because they thought that they had truly killed Picard and that they truly blew up the real Enterprise D. So a lot of fans were freaking out during that moment because they showed a little bit of tidbit. The ads for it. Oh, that's funny. And at this point, none of us were really particularly happy with the fans anyway.

Right. Take that. That's funny. Oh, my goodness. All right. Well, everyone's in shock. And Cisco's comment at the end is, that they were showing us how far they're willing to go.

Correct. Said, of course, for the wormhole, let's get out of here. Yeah. So they head back. As they're disembarking, Quark stops Cisco and says, Commander, we need to talk. He's got the collar. Yeah.

Got the collar in his hand. So we know. Something's up. Yeah, good thing you reached down before you shot the Jam Hadar. We reached down and grabbed that thing. Yes. And how smart of Kim not to make a meal out of it? It's just there.

It was just there. There's no meal. There's no meal. Very smart of her. Yeah. Yeah, it's very smart. We go to ops for our last scene. Eris is looking around as she walks in. She just seems, you know, so excited to see ops in the station.

In all. In all, in a way, right? Oh, look at this. Yeah. And she's looking around, and then Cisco walks in with a phaser drawn. Trained on her. Yep. And Quark says when he tried to replicate the collar, he realized there was nothing in it. And Cisco says, you're a founder, aren't you?

And she smiles. Basically, she says, you have no idea what you've begun here. And she beams out in kind of a cool, beamy thing. It's like a tube, a tube of beam that she beams out with. Very ominous moment. But, Armand, can I just ask, she's not a founder, correct? I'm not. No, she's not.

Okay. But that's what Cisco thinks right there. Cisco thinks that, yes. Yeah. Because her answer is, you think the founders would wait. their time on you. So, yeah. She doesn't look anything like a founder.

No. Okay. I'm getting the Vorda are the spokesmen or the spokespersons of the dominion for the founders, basically. Does that sound? Yes. They are the ambassadors. The ambassadors, thank you. Cisco does say at the end of the scene, when she comes back, she's going to bring others with her.

And the first battle is going to be fought right here, very ominous moment. You know what was interesting. When Eress says, you have no idea what's begun. here. And then she taps her sleeve and she beams out on that point. Did you notice how, Renee played that? Renee was like, Renee was about to grab her. Like, Madam, follow me. And when she taps out, he quickly moves his hand back like, whoa, don't beam my hand with you, kind of a thing, you know? Oh, interesting. Did you catch that, Robin? No, I didn't see that. Yeah. Because you know when you, when you're holding someone else and you're being beamed aboard, then that person beams with you, I think,

or the minute you're touching them, I feel. So, oh, interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. So I think. he was worried about his hand or his goo of his hand or his goo yes kudos to mr brooks at the very end the look on his face about what is about to come what they're about to face uh certainly he couldn't have known because it's the end of year two and we had five more years to go yeah but uh i thought that's exactly right that's exactly yeah you mean his final line no his final look his look he At the very end. As he's staring out into space or staring out, he's just thinking about what's to come. And I was very moved by that.

I was very moved by that. Well, how did you interpret that look then? What did you see in that look? Well, I'm seeing it from hindsight, having just watched it the last couple of days. I went, he has no idea what's about to come. And yet that look tells me that, yes, there's a lot to come. And because that's what this episode is about, is about establishing the threat from the founders and the dominion.

Okay. The theme of this episode, Robbie McNeil. The first thing that came to mind when I watched this, the lesson was don't go camping. Yeah, yeah. Just don't go camping. And you won't get into all this trouble. End of story.

Done. But I like to camp, so I had to think of another lesson. And I really love the story with Quark and Cisco in this episode. Okay. About judging others and assumptions and biases. So the lesson I got is to self-reflect before you judge other people. I think Quark put it beautifully in that speech we talked about quite a bit. You know, the reason you hate Ferengi is because you see yourself in me.

And I think if Cisco could just self-reflect and not project this. stuff on to quark, they'd have a better relationship. So it's a great lesson to look at yourself before you, you know, project your issues, your issues, your issues with the flaws of humanity. That's Cisco's issues. Right. He's projecting all of that judgment onto Ferengi. So self-reflect before you judge someone else.

Self-reflect before you judge others. Yeah. I like that. Armand. I have two themes, if we call it. that. Every member of the team is important and should be treated equally. It piggybacks on what you just said, Robert. This one is the secondary theme. Space exploration can be a science project, but it can also be dangerous. Which also piggybacks on don't go camping.

Yes, don't go camping. But I mean, we're living through that right now. We have two astronauts in space. where they're longer, they're stuck because it's dangerous because they got there, but they can't get out. So, yeah. Yes, for me, I guess my lesson really, it's sort of piggybacks on both of yours in a way. But it's just in terms of as human beings, we tend to view strangers, and in this case, other alien races that we haven't come across, let's say that, with trepidation. And with a measure of competitiveness or a measure of, like, us against them. It's always like this something that's combative. But if we can start trying to find within ourselves, and we all have a capability to view a stranger or a strange alien race coming from a place of love, which is completely different.

I'm like, how can you do that, you know, if you do, instead of, instead of being competitive, being more collaborative and coming from a place of kindness and of love, sort of the golden rule. Treat those around you that you, with the same way that you would like to treat, be treated by a stranger. Okay, the Patreon poll theme slash moral lesson of this episode, as submitted by Sherry Kidner, is colonizing places before understanding the local culture and political structure is dangerous. Don't go camping. Exactly what Robbie and Armand are talking about already. Yeah, don't go camping.

Okay. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning in to our recap and discussion of the season two finale of D-Space-9, the Gem Hadar. Please join us next time when we will be discussing and recapping the season three premiere episode, The Search, Art 1, with Terry. And we want to thank Armand, of course, for joining us and co-hosting again. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. See you with the next one. Thanks, everybody. And Patreon, patrons, stick around. I don't know.