The Delta Flyers - The Wire

Starting point is 00:00:00 Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9. For the complete and exciting version of this podcast, check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up today to become a Patreon. Your host for today's podcast are my fellow Trek actors, Armin Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong. But we have a very, very special, special fellow Star Trek actor

Starting point is 00:00:44 who is co-hosting with us today, and that is none other than Mr. Andrew Robinson. Andy, hello, yes. What a wonderful intro. What a wonderful intro. Did you like it? Special, special. Special, special. double special you got double special i gotta say andy of all the people that i know in my life there's

Starting point is 00:01:05 people who when i hear their name i'm like hmm and there's other people when i hear their name i'm like i get happy i smile and you're one of those people when i hear your name i smile yeah yeah but you have you ever been directed by him that's the difference we have actually we have and they have actually He came over and directed on Voyager with us. That was so exciting for us. It was great. We just love you so much. And we love that the camaraderie that you have with Armin,

Starting point is 00:01:37 like you guys riff off of each other so well. We've known each other for a very, very, very, very special time. And I think actually long before Star Trek, we were friends. And we have done a lot of stuff together, a lot of stuff. Oh. What was the first thing? Can you remember the very first time? I believe Andy and Kitty were on the board of Screen Actors Guild together.

Starting point is 00:02:00 And I believe that's where I first met Andy. That's where we got to know each other. First time I saw Armand was in a production of Three Penny Opera at Lincoln Center. And truly, you know, he was memorable and for all the right reasons. Thank you, thank you. For those of you listening, most of you weren't more then. That was 1976, possibly 1977. We ran for about nine, ten months.

Starting point is 00:02:21 That was a big hit. That's an iconic production. Yes, it is. Raul Julia as Mac the Knife. Or depending when you saw it, Phil Bosco as Mac the Knife. No, I saw, I saw Raul. Yeah. Wow.

Starting point is 00:02:31 But what did you guys work on together, though? You saw him there, but what was the first? We didn't know each other. Right. But what's the first time you worked on something together? Can you remember? Oh, the first time we worked together was in a birthday party, I believe. That's the first time we worked together.

Starting point is 00:02:47 That's right. That's right. Andy directed a production of Pinter's birthday party, which he was kind enough to. cast me in, and it was a great, great production, and I, if I may brag, I was nominated for an award here in Los Angeles for that performance that Andy gave me. Wow. So Andy wasn't in it. Andy directed the play then. Yeah, I directed it. A lot of people don't know is that Andy is a phenomenal theater director and was at the top of the heap for many years as he directed at the Matrix

Starting point is 00:03:15 Theater were some wonderful actors, including Greg Eton, worked over and over with him. That's how I got the gigs that directed Star Trek. I knew that I was going to win these L.A. Drama Critic Award awards for both, well, actually, this is for the Homecoming and Endgame. And I knew it was going to be in the L.A. Times the next morning. So first thing, the next morning, I called Rick Berman's office. And I said, please, I don't need to speak to Rick, but just tell him to look in the entertainment section of the L.A. Times. this morning and and tell him that I'd like to have a meeting with him and the and the person said okay and sure enough he looked in the LA Times saw that I'd won two awards for directing and then

Starting point is 00:04:02 he called me back and I said you know I'd like to direct uh the shows and he said okay you know we'll send you the school and that was that wow and that was when you were on deep space nine that was yes I was I was on deep say yeah he wouldn't have answered my call if I hadn't been on cheap six nine yeah yeah we'll be right back after this message from our sponsor andy kudos to you in your business sense to literally tell him to look at that part of the the paper well it was just such a slam dunk there yes i mean you know so good job and and really andy was is a very famous uh los angeles theater director and and directed some incredible production some of them he just mentioned but he did others as well how many take a guess andy how many did you do at the matrix i think i did about oh my gosh

Starting point is 00:04:54 there was a time when i was doing two a year uh so i i would say that i did about 12 around a dozen plus what what you did otherwise as well yeah exactly gregg itson who uh we know from star trek as well gregg and andy had a very special relationship and they were they were gangbusters together it was a great team a great team oh did not know all that but thank you for sharing. What have you been up to lately? I've been working mainly in theater. I did a show last winter. Probably going to do another one coming up the first of the year, doing a reading with Armin of Sunshine Boys. I mean, that's where my energy is going, is theater. Well, we're going to start off this podcast the way we normally do, which is our poetry synopsis.

Starting point is 00:05:46 Garrick is in a bit of a bind. Something's broken inside of his mind. Bashir wants to keep him from dying, but Garrick just can't stop lying. The truth isn't always easy to find. Excellent, Robbie. There you go. That's great. There's a little limerick synopsis.

Starting point is 00:06:07 I think it covered the important stuff. Here's my haiku for this episode. Garrick, dire, pain. Bashir won't stop till cure found Just scratched the surface Ooh Very good Armand do you have etymology?

Starting point is 00:06:29 I have actually decided to give you definitions of two words One is the title, as I always do And then I'll tell you what the other is in a second But the first is the wire And that's an old English word Probably pronounced weir at the time it means to obscure

Starting point is 00:06:46 to entwine to wind or twist about its first use as wire was in 1633 it also can mean a secondary meaning to send a message which I think is indicative

Starting point is 00:07:02 of this episode to send a message is very important in this episode now the other word that I found interesting, is obsidian. We all know about the obsidian order. But actually, obsidian is a word, and it's an old, old word, predates even wire. It was first found in the Greek scholar Pliny. And it means a dark-colored vitreous lava or volcanic rock, a varying composition. It can also

Starting point is 00:07:37 mean volcanic glass. It can also be thought of as a precious stone. I should also mention that wire can also be thought of as hair. Wires, black wires grow in my mistress's head, Shakespeare. So wire can also mean hairs. And actually, I think it meant hairs before and meant copper wires. Hmm. Hmm. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:07:59 I love it. I love that. I know. Yeah, excellent. Thank you. I love that you've chose obsidian because it didn't occur to me, but what a great word to understand, you know, why they choose. shows that for the obsidian order.

Starting point is 00:08:14 And also obsidian was used, you know, I don't know, as far back, I think even with the Greeks as the tips of spears. Oh. And, of course, knives. That's interesting. Ah, interesting. Well, that would make sense with the obsidian order. Let's talk about some guests.

Starting point is 00:08:33 We have Boheca. Bohika is played by Jimmy F. Skaggs. He is the other, I guess he's the Cardassian. that Quark talks to his contact. Right. His title is a glen. He's a glen. He's a glen. Okay.

Starting point is 00:08:49 Jimmy Skaggs has actually voiced other characters in the video game Star Trek away team. So that's his other Star Trek reference that he has, his credit. I liked him, though. He had a lot of personality. In this scene where Quark is talking to him, Quark never saw him. Correct. Because they put that in later. So I was talking to a dead screen and never got a chance actually to work with Jimmy.

Starting point is 00:09:10 You never met him, actually. Correct? Yeah. That's right. All right. Next up we have Anne Gillespie as Jabara. Jabara is a recurring role, evidently. Also appeared in the next generation as Ensign Hilderbrandt in the second season episode Pen Pals. So that's Anne's other Star Trek credit. Next up we have Paul Dooley, who plays Anabrin Tane, the former head of the Obsidian Order, and still keeping tabs on on his old job, basically, in this episode. Paul Dooley, Paul Dooley, as Anabran Tain, also appears in four episodes of Star Trek D-Space-9 as still Anabrin Tain.

Starting point is 00:09:53 So he comes back. Paul Dooley is one of those working joes who's always been around, has done really good work all of his life. Also worked in the theater, great deal as well. I mean, Second City. I mean, he was a stalwart in Chicago. Really?

Starting point is 00:10:06 It was a brilliant casting choice. Yeah. It was a brilliant casting choice to make a nabintane that kind of a vuncular seeming like a regular guy that's right yeah and of course all oh god i loved working with him i mean what a beautiful actor and because of that because of that second city training of his he was he was on the kiv i mean he was like right there every moment you know yeah that's great liked him a lot my favorite moment he did in breaking away was when his son gives a refund to the used car, the guy that bought the used car, the crappy car

Starting point is 00:10:45 anyway, his son brings the car back, and you hear him go, refund, refa, he's like in shock. He's just yelling the word, refund, refund, it's very funny. Breaking away, I saw it 12 times when I was in high school. It was my favorite movie of all times. Again, kudos to our casting department for the people that they found, including Andy and myself and everybody else. believe me changed my life you know this changed my life

Starting point is 00:11:13 and I didn't want to do this audition because I'd gone up for Odo a few times you know gone down to Paramount you know went through the whole thing going into the room with all the people you know three times and of course the right man got the job

Starting point is 00:11:28 Renee and I say that quite sincerely but then when they called me a week or so later saying listen there's this there's this role in an episode I said, okay, then offer to me. And they said, no, you have to come in. I said, why do you have to come in? I've been there three times. They said, no, they really want you to come. And I said, now, forget it. If you want me, offer to me. And Irene heard me and my wife, and

Starting point is 00:11:53 Irene said, you know, there are bills to be paid. The phone's not ringing off the hook. You know, just go down there. I said, okay. Thank God. And as usual, Irene was right. As usual, Irene was right. She was right, of course. Wife knows best. Yeah. Not only wife, but manager as well. She wasn't necessarily, Andy's manager, but she was a manager.

Starting point is 00:12:20 She used to be a manager, a very high-powered manager, actually. Oh. Yeah. But it's so funny, she really didn't want to do that anymore when we got married. Well, only when I started behaving like a jerk, you know. And our last guest star of this episode is Andrew Robinson, who we've got with us right now. Now, what do they call this the kind of show that they throw in? It's called a bottle show.

Starting point is 00:12:42 Thank you very much. Usually the bottle shows are better quality shows because they've concentrated on one or two characters, and it's a great look. And in this case, they've taken an enormous leap about Garrick here. He's been a secret character for a year and a half or longer on this show, and we find out, we think we find out. So interesting.

Starting point is 00:13:08 aspects of who Garrick is. Yeah, for sure. This episode is written by Robert Hewitt Wolf, who felt that this episode was one of the best things he has ever written. Wow. Ever. The original script idea, gentlemen, was to have shown that Kira had been addicted to battle stimulants ever since her days in the Bajorn resistance.

Starting point is 00:13:30 That idea was rejected because it would be too difficult to do subsequent episodes with Kira without referencing this addiction. And it could have possibly tarnished her character of the character of Kira. You didn't know that, did you, right? No, I did not know that at all. Yeah, yeah. Well, writing for the character, Garrick, Ira took inspiration from the movie Schindler's List. Maybe he was Schindler.

Starting point is 00:13:55 Maybe Garrick was the butcher of Budapest. We don't know. So there we go. Again, the writers make you think you believe one thing and show you that what you think you know, you really don't know, finding out things that we think we know, but we're wrong about and we learn something new. Mm-hmm. Yep. Kim Friedman directed this episode, and evidently, this is the first DS9 episode to be directed

Starting point is 00:14:20 by a woman. Kim Friedman actually was the director of our first episode after we came back from the pilot, after that little break we had, after shooting the pilot episode of Voyager. She directed the very first episode, and she sent all the Voyager actors a package, FedEx, package to our homes and we opened it up and it was a letter from her saying, hi, Voyager actors. I am Kim Friedman. I'll be directing your first episode when you get back. I saw the pilot episode, Caretaker. Good job. Everything was great. But one thing that you did not do very well was shake. The shaking on the ship shakes. On the ship shake on the bridge.

Starting point is 00:14:55 She goes, she goes clearly, all of you need instruction. So I must tell you, do not shake by bending forward or backwards, but shake from your center and let the extremity follow. Now, I have included clips of my Deep Space Nine episodes that I have directed scenes where the Deep Space Nine actors are shaking correctly. Please watch these episodes and these clips that I've is a whole highlight real. Dude, I'm not kidding. It's true. There's a VHS cassette tape that's in there for us to watch how you guys shake the right way and we didn't know how to shake at all. Then at the end of the letter, she said, if after watching these scenes and after attempting to practice this in the mirror. You feel that you are not successful. Please feel free to go ask any Deep Space

Starting point is 00:15:41 Nine actor for a demonstration. That's what she said. She encouraged us to go talk to the cast. I want to see you approaching Avery Brooks. Oh, that's what I was saying. Hey, Mulgrew came up to me one day and she asked me to do some shaking for her. Or if I knocked on Avery's trailer and he's like, yes. And I'm like, yeah, Avery, can you shake for me? Leave. Get out of my trailer. Oh, my God. I will not do that for you. All right. Let's talk about this episode.

Starting point is 00:16:09 Let's jump right into the story. So it opens up. We're in the promenade. Garrick and Bashir walking to lunch down through a very busy promenade, by the way. It's very, very busy. Bashir mentions he's been reading the Cardassian novel, The Never Ending Sacrifice, which sounded like the never-ending story to me. He was into very long, long homes. Yes.

Starting point is 00:16:32 It sounds the never-ending sacrifice sounds like a very long book. Yes. Yes. But Bashir thinks it's kind of dull this book, which shocks Garrick. It was further proof of, you know, Federation ignorance and, you know, backwardness. Yes. Not so much that he didn't like the book, but that he couldn't understand that different cultures have different criteria. That's what that said to me. The Federation couldn't understand that this is what Cardassians liked about novel. as opposed to what they liked about them. I also liked in this scene, Andy, you had a lot where you talk about the gallopotens or something in the beginning. You talk about the Gallipotin freighters, but you say, you know, it's been rough, but that's the price of doing business with a culture that refuses to even acknowledge the concept of time. That's right. I love these aliens. These aliens we never meet, but we talk about these crazy aliens.

Starting point is 00:17:30 And then you did say they refuse to acknowledge time, but they make fabulous sweaters. They make magnificent sweaters. Yeah, very clever. And I would venture to remind all of you that wormhole aliens really don't recognize time either. Oh, you're right. We're in the part of the galaxy where nobody likes time. Right. Wow.

Starting point is 00:17:55 But we love overtime. Meal penalties and overtime. We love it. Force calls. Love all that. But Bashir and Garrick get to the replemate and it's packed. People are lined up out the door. Garrick can't believe that Bashir didn't like this book.

Starting point is 00:18:09 He says it's the greatest, greatest Cardassian book of the repetitive epic form. And you can only imagine. The same story over and never ending the loop. Yes. But it gets a headache in the scene, Garrick. Before that, there was a line about this that I just want to quote. Garik says to Bashir, you are a prisoner to federation dogma and human prejudice. I love that.

Starting point is 00:18:36 Love that. You know, it's funny. You know how Hollywood will send movies all across the world? Well, if they sent movies to another world to Cardassia, something like Mission Impossible would flop. Something like TopGum would flop. But the number one movie of all time in Cardassia would be Groundhog Day. Everyone's just going to see that. We love it.

Starting point is 00:18:58 It's good. The repetitiveness. Same story. Over and over again. That's right. Oh, my goodness. Well, Garrett gets a headache in the scene. It starts off as a relatively small, minor headache in the beginning of our story. But Bashir wants him to go to the infirmary.

Starting point is 00:19:13 Garrick refuses, says he's not hungry anymore. He leaves. And Kira walks up at the end of the scene and asks what was that about. And Bashir has no idea what's going on. And you know, it was interesting about that. When, you know, when I watched it this last time and Kira came into the, to the frame and ask her question, I thought, wow, that's really interesting. This is a person who actually is watching everything and listening to everything. She was right on top of that.

Starting point is 00:19:42 There's no way she could have heard that conversation. This is a wonderful episode, but there are flaws in this episode. This is the first of some of the flaws, is she comes out, what was that all about, as though she had heard the conversation? And from the noise around the conversation, she doesn't have Ferengi ears. There's no way she could. have heard that. Yeah, unless someone was wearing a wire, like the title of this episode. Okay. Ah, there we go. That's why they called it that. Okay. But you're right, because that place was so crowded, right? Armand, there's no way she could hear any of that conversation. Right. And the truth of the matter is, to Andy's point, which I'm going to differ with,

Starting point is 00:20:19 why would she be listening to this conversation? She was always marking Garrick. True. Oh, he did not trust Garrick. She knew that Garrick was, you know, not who he said. said he was, plus with her, you know, feelings about Cardassians to begin with. I, you know, that made sense to me. I agree with you about, you know, the noise being too hard to. But I, but I like the idea that she was, she was marking him even then and wondering probably, as many people were, what is going on between Bashir and this Kardashian dude? Yeah. I think if, if you know, as a director, you know at the end of a scene that a character is going to button it with, wow, I heard what you were talking about. Is everything okay? Some version of that

Starting point is 00:21:04 that you would, as a director, you'd want to establish that character kind of turning and looking in a close-up, just their attention going to this conversation. And then when they appear later, you would justify it. But it felt like there was a few of those. I agree with you, Arman, in this episode, a few of those moments where I was like, I call bullshit on that. That's not, I don't buy that that character would do that or would be a part of this moment. It felt a little manufactured at times, some of the staging and the blocking and things. Well, the next scene, we go into Dax's quarters and Julian is scanning this spiky cactus-looking thing, which I felt like looked like the plant from Little Shop of Horace. So did I. So did I. Yes, absolutely. It told exactly like that to me.

Starting point is 00:21:51 I thought it was an alien because it looks like the top of a cone head from Saturday Night Live, the cone heads, you know? And I thought, oh, this is an alien person sitting facing the doctor and not, you know, away from camera. But then I realized, oh, that's not a person. No, it's a plant. It's a plant. Yeah. And by the way, those kind of props, those are expensive to make those custom props like that. Like, that would have been the same price or more than an actor, a guest actor or two. You're being serious? I'm being totally serious. Yeah. Yeah, custom props like that are very expensive. I did this movie Masters of the Universe. We had this prop that was called the Cosmic Key. I asked the prop guy, how much did that cost to make? And he said, oh, it was about

Starting point is 00:22:32 $75,000, $80,000 for this prop. And we had three of them. So, yeah, it's worth, those props are worth a lot more than the actors, the cost of an actor playing a role, which is shocking. Wow. Yeah. Who knew that? Anyway, that's a good feel to go into. Prop maker. Yeah, prop makers. Fancy props. Well, the plant looks like the little shop to me. Yep. Bashir's trying to help diagnose this plant. He asks where it's from. Dax says Ladonia 3. He basically Googles it. He goes over to computer. He Googles Ladonia 3. And he realizes there's a native fungus on Ladonia that on Ladonia 3 that helps retain water for this cactus. So he thinks he can replicate this fungus in the lab and save the plant. And then he starts talking

Starting point is 00:23:19 about Garrick's reaction, this headache that he had. And he's telling Dax about it. Bashir says, you know, Garik's always evasive about everything, even his health. He thought they were friends. And Dax says in the scene, you're not even friends or something. So it seems to trigger him a bit. You know, he's taking this personally because he did think that they were, they were friends. We're moving along this trope that we've seen for the first year and a half of this, this growing friendship between Garrick and Bashir. And I was very happy to see that because, okay, now we're going to find out more about what that's all about.

Starting point is 00:23:56 Again, like any show, we're peeling back the onion and getting bits and pieces of information that make the characters richer to us, the audience. Yeah. Andy, do you remember, like, the evolution with Sid when you're doing these scenes with Sid? Like, when you first started, they were kind of small scenes where you might have a meal. There might be some little nuggets that were revealed. But do you remember, like, you and Sid, your conversations about this relationship?

Starting point is 00:24:25 The reason I got the job was because Sid and I had some chemistry because they were looking for a storyline for Sid's character. Because as, you know, they pretty much had, you know, all the other regulars on DS9 pretty much were established. But Sid was like this, you know, he was out in the cold there. Basically, it was, you know, they created Garrick for this storyline, you know, to get Sid, you know, going in the series. And then what happened was because Sid is, and by the way, Sid is really good in this episode. Yes, he is. He's really good. He's an underrated actor.

Starting point is 00:25:07 He underrates himself, you know, or he used to anyway. But he is a really good actor. And he's excellent in this. And so, Sid, it's in the very first moment, because I, you know, when I got all my makeup, my gear on, we hadn't even met. And so when we met, I was Garrick. But when I first saw Sid, and also I was struggling with what to do with Garrick, with this character, Garrick, you know, because I'm playing this alien. I've got all this crap on me. I'm sweating like a pig, suffocating because I'm claustrophobic, wondering, oh, God, I don't know if I can do this. So I go out on set for our first meeting for our first scene in the reprimand, and I see Sid. And Sid is like one of the most beautiful. men i've ever seen and i thought oh that's it that's that's it i besides whatever garrick is trying to you know uh leverage in terms of information from the star fleet officer he's also knocked out by him he is truly attracted to him and sid picked that up right away and there's a moment when i i in that very first scene when i go around behind him

Starting point is 00:26:26 And I put my hand on his shoulder, and I said, Dr. Bashir, I presume. And Sid's reaction was so brilliant. It was perfect. And, of course, you know, Ira and the writers, who are smart people, picked up on that right away. And so essentially that started, you know, I mean, that became a fixture, you know, with all those episodes that began with us in the Replomat. And Sid attracted for his reasons, which were not. not Garrick's reasons.

Starting point is 00:26:58 So the evolution of that, you know, it really sort of like started full bloom, you know, right away it blossomed. But of course, this is the episode where the relationship is furthered because up until this point, it's the same, you know, Garrick being his, you know, his, his mendacious self, mendacious. That's it, mendacious, but charming. Charming evasive, yes, yeah. But very much hooked in to Julian.

Starting point is 00:27:26 I mean, really, very, very emotionally attached to Julian in his own way. And Julian, of course, wanting that kind of, that association, that hit that he's getting from being with the Cardassian who is of dubious, you know, whatever he is, because he's, you know, he's more than just a tailor. So, Andy, let me ask you, so in that initial scene, you, played Garrick as being attracted to Bashir. So if you were to peel further layers away, did you develop Garrick as an omnis sexual character? Like, where you, you were into anyone that, any, any gender, whatever it was, that happened to be beautiful to you. Exactly. And that was

Starting point is 00:28:16 one of the ones, you know, what is an alien? I mean, you know, obviously an alien can't help but to be a humanoid, you know, whether you're a Ferengi, a Cardassian, a Klingon, whatever. I mean, you You're going to be a humanoid. But so how do you find, how do you find behavior that is, quote, unquote, alien? The gay community picked up on that first scene immediately. Immediately. They knew exactly what Garrick was about. That's, you know, one of the reasons why Garrick became a gay icon.

Starting point is 00:28:47 Right. But you're telling me that he's not gay. He is omnisexual. Omnisectual. That's right. He's had relations with females as well, I'm guessing. Did Garrick have a wife in your backstory and back on Cardassia? No.

Starting point is 00:29:00 He had a tragic, tragic love affair. Okay. That he never got over. All right. I love, though, that, Andy, that, you know, as you described this, it just reinforces what an impact the actor's choices have. You know, that was not written on the page. No. Well, of course.

Starting point is 00:29:20 The characters, you know, belong to the writers, the writers. And thank God the writers, you know, they are. For the most part, and I've told Robert how much I loved his script. I mean, the writers were great. But that's where we have our power, you know, with these choices. Because the choices have to be, you know, have to be internal. You can't make choices about what kind of words you're going to say. They're there.

Starting point is 00:29:44 And, of course, they were very strict and rightfully so about that. You say the words that are written the way they're written. But the internal choices that we make, that determined everything. For me, the direction that Garrett was going to go into. And then the writers would see that in dailies, and they'd pick up on it, and they'd write words to go with those choices. That's right. I think it's fascinating that as you describe it, it sounds like this wasn't a choice that you had done a lot of homework on. It was just an impulsive sort of, wow, this makes sense.

Starting point is 00:30:15 I had no idea. It was an aha moment, you know. You're absolutely right, Robbie. I mean, I had no idea. I walked out on that set, and I just didn't know what. to do with this character. You know, I mean, the words were fine and so forth. And I had a kind of, you know, a behavioral, general behavioral thing that I was working on. But then when I saw Sid, you know, and that whole sexuality thing, you know, the question came into my mind and being,

Starting point is 00:30:44 then I found, I actually found the physical behavior as well. Yeah. Great. Great, great, great. Just jumping back into our story, there is an interesting little thing here that I'm going to talk about. In the lines, Bashir says, I only wish my humanoid patients were as easy to treat. Dax says, did Chief O'Brien dislocate his shoulder again? And that is a reference to a dislocated shoulder that happened in the next generation episode Transfigurations while kayaking in the holodeck there. So that's a little reference back to TNG. Oh, interesting. But that was a story reference.

Starting point is 00:31:19 Yes, sorry. Column didn't actually do anything. It was a character thing. Yes, character. Got it. And the writers covered their butts. There is a botanist on this show, a recurring character, very recurring character, Cullum's wife, Keiko.

Starting point is 00:31:34 And so if you've got a plant problem, you know, don't go to a medical doctor. Go to the botanist. But they explained why she couldn't go to the botanist. And I like that. That's good writing. Yes. Yes, she was on another planet doing some type of workshop or something like that, right? So, yep, good job.

Starting point is 00:31:50 We go to the promenade again. We start with Mourne, who's very sad about Quark's bar closing up. He really loves to sit at the bar. And again, I point out to people who wouldn't know, but the Ferengi closing up the bar is not Quark, but Broyke, my stand-in, who was on pretty much every show. But there's Broyk again. Let's, again, a shout out to Broyke and David Levingson. Nice. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:19 Well, Barr's closing up. Morn is very sad about it. We reveal Bashir coming out. But then as he approaches Quarks, he notices that Quark and Garrick are talking very animatedly he notices. So he's going to take some back stairs and come around the other way. If this is a clandescent conversation, what the hell are both of these guys doing in an open window? Yeah. It just doesn't make them.

Starting point is 00:32:43 I'm sorry. They're both smarter than that. Especially when he's noticing it from across the promenade. Exactly. If he came up close and then sort of hid behind something to eavesdrop, but he was a mile away. And he too does not have perengue here, so he's got to hear that a mile away as well. Yeah, right. But you're right, Armin.

Starting point is 00:33:02 I mean, Quark and Garrick are literally the two, are arguably the two masters of deception on this station. So they would definitely not be meeting in front of a window, correct? Right. In a floodlight. In a floodlight. A floodlight. not very smart your clandestine meeting yeah not very smart

Starting point is 00:33:23 well we cut inside they're finishing up their agreement their business deal uh garrick does mention in the scene he's never done any business with quark before that's not true did he do business with you sure I bought a dress from him in a business do you remember that episode

Starting point is 00:33:39 yeah that's right he goes I'll have it mended nevertheless something like that remember that's right When you show him the tear. Again, that's not an episode that we're reviewing now. We already reviewed that episode. But Andy, that was just an amazing, an amazing scene between you and Armin in the shop talking about, you know, talking but yet not talking about the deal.

Starting point is 00:34:03 Oh, it was so good. No, it was a wonderful scene. Garrick has never made any deals with Quark, I guess, then, maybe. Clandestine deals. He's never done this kind of deal over. This kind of deal. Quark's very real. assuring to him he can get him what he needs but garrick's very impatient he needs this really soon

Starting point is 00:34:21 and he leaves and then bashear comes down from inside so i guess he went up and around and somehow after the door was closed yes yes yeah he somehow got in well he's very thin you know i mean yes he is it fits through a lot of stuff it's very athletic he can contort his body i'm just saying they're just flaws i'm looking at this episode and going no that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't work. I had the same response to some of the blocking. I was just like this. Yeah, it'll probably come up some more. Yeah, well, Bashir comes down. He mentions, uh, Garrick seemed upset. He's fishing for some answers. Quark says he didn't notice. Offers him a brandy or a late night, uh, you know, visit in the holosuite. But Bashir declines and says, no, thank you. My question is, has Bashir gone into the

Starting point is 00:35:09 hollow suites for these sort of things before? Because I look at my reading, I don't remember, of course, but I look at my reading. I sort of make the choice that you've done this before. Do you want one now? Yeah. Garrick may be after Bashir, but I think Bashir might be after something else. Yes. Well, doesn't Quark say that he's, Quark says he's trying to give Garik a new, get

Starting point is 00:35:31 Garik a new sizing scanner. That was his reason. Yeah, yeah. That's a fabrication, I would believe. It has to be, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Good one.

Starting point is 00:35:39 Yeah. I like a sizing scanner. I do it. Who wouldn't like a sizing scanner? Well, you need a sizing scanner. I mean, you know, if you're going to make clothes, I mean, come on. You want to get those measurements right. It sounds like stepping on a scale.

Starting point is 00:35:51 I don't want to know. I don't want a sizing scanner. You don't have to ask the people to raise their arms and you get underneath their, you know, you put your tape around their waist and there's their bosoms and stuff like that. With a sizing scanner, that's all taking care of digit. Yeah. Okay. Without using your digits. Yes.

Starting point is 00:36:07 We go to the infirmary next. Bashir's giving Cisco in his one scene in this episode. giving Cisco some kind of hypospray. It seemed to me like Cisco got, was yelling at an admiral and pulled a muscle or something. I don't really understand because he, Bashir says, how does that feel? He gives him a shot.

Starting point is 00:36:28 And Cisco goes, oh, much better. He's kind of rubbing his neck or something. And then Bashir says, try not to yell at any more admirals for a while. So I guess he got really wound up and pulled a muscle or something. I wasn't sure. It's a residual scene. He's here to give his.

Starting point is 00:36:43 it is. Clearly. That's right. But O'Brien arrives in the scene. Bashir wants to find any old Cardassian medical files. Ask O'Brien. O'Brien says they probably deleted that along with everything else when they left the station. But maybe he can reconstruct it. But it's going to take a couple of weeks. And Bashir says, eh, not quick enough. Doesn't help. And then he gets a call from Quark. Quark calls, I need you, doctor, in my bar right away. So, Clearly, something's happened. Something's happened, but he leisurely picks up his kit as though it's not important. Again, I thought, really, Kim, you should have got him out of there quicker.

Starting point is 00:37:25 If it's an emergency, he should have rushed over. Or beamed himself as he does later on. It's only several yards between Bashir's office and Quarx Bar. Oh, okay. Having lived there for seven years, I can tell you. It is maybe, because literally, that's where it is yeah uh it is what would you say andy it it might have been 20 feet no maybe 10 yards maybe 10 yards between uh between the sure it would be quicker to walk and he did

Starting point is 00:38:00 walk another sort of hiccup for me was after a year and a half bishir's finding out that the medical records have all been erased yeah what have you been doing for you why don't you you know this mean the cardassian yeah yeah yeah i wonder if that if he's ever had you know cause to investigate that pre before a garrick's uh you would think so they've dealt with cardassian yeah that the cardassians are not totally invisible on the station goldaqad is there uh you know there's right that there there are cardassians coming and going through the station we are neutral we are switzerland between bejore and and cardassia in the this standoff between the two of them.

Starting point is 00:38:45 So I thought, really, this is, you're just finding this out now. Again, I really liked this episode a great deal. Just little things I went, somebody should have caught that. You're kind of on the Jason Oka nitpick thing right now, is what I am.

Starting point is 00:39:00 But I do want to ask one thing, though, when you call the doctor, you're not using a comm badge, right? Because you don't have a comm badge. So how are you calling him? Precisely. how am I calling him and really if it's only what do we say was 20 yards or 10 yards you said 10 yards away it's only 10 yards away it would be quicker for me just to come over and run over and go back yeah

Starting point is 00:39:24 it's not like I'm there by myself broika's there Rama's there other people work for quark how would you call though armin quark if he doesn't have a combat or how would garrick call someone you'd have to go to the train classical actor he can project I did not know that about Quark He was a trained Back story Back story Oh my God

Starting point is 00:39:48 Do you have There must be like a communicator communication station or something for you to make it So I don't think we ever used it again You don't see it Yeah I don't That's what I thought I don't have a Com badge

Starting point is 00:40:00 Right But I'm just wondering if there's like a You know like some type of Like a set Not a cell phone You know what I'm saying Something where you could walk over There probably is like a computer, go to the monitor, hit medical, right.

Starting point is 00:40:14 You know, like in a hotel room, you hit the button that says wake up call. Don't you have Siri or Alexa or something in the bar? Hey, Siri, call the infirmary. We had Chadzia. We had, no, you had Broick. You had Broick. Hey, brook, call so-and-so. Yeah, he goes and does it.

Starting point is 00:40:32 So, again, just, I went, where did that, that voice come from? Yeah. How did that happen? Okay. Well, you call. He leisurely walks out. We go over to Quarks. And then he rushes in. In the scene when he comes to cork, he is now in a hurry. Yes. He is. He rushes in. But we reveal Garrick grabbing another bottle of something. Canar. Canar. Canar. And that's, is that your, is that Cardassian ale or whiskey?

Starting point is 00:41:00 That's a Cardassian fermented drink. Fermented. Oh, so it's more powerful than beer or ale. It's quite powerful. Okay. yeah well he's he's been drinking a lot of it yeah uh he's drunk let's just cut to the jace he's drunk uh bashear arrives cork fills him in garrick's very apologetic for being rude earlier asked bishir to join him bishir says you know it's kind of loud in here let and garrick says you're right let's go to my quarters bishir mentions well yeah well let's do that well i'll just stop by the infirmary first garrick is no fool he gets what he's trying to do he goes nope you're not

Starting point is 00:41:37 fooling me he gets very mad in this scene is it the canar you were you're like an angry drunk yeah it's kind of an angry drunk absolutely absolutely and believe me I come by that behavior honestly I just had a realization the canar that drink itself

Starting point is 00:41:56 what color would you say that blue like a light a lighter kind of turquoisey blue yeah yeah it's the same color as Lake Louise in Alberta you know that had that crazy turquoise that that that that iridescent blue it's the same thing. Maybe they get it from Canada. That's where Kinnar comes from.

Starting point is 00:42:13 Canar is filtered water from Lake Louise in Alberta. That's it. All right. Well, Garrick's very mad at the end of the scene. He wants some more blue Lake Louise water. He gets really mad, has a headache, massive headache, and basically faints in this scene. Yeah, you fell right on your back. You did a nice stunt there. That was a good stunt. That was you. I used to give Great Falls. Oh yeah yeah that was a good fall I knew how to fall good Yeah some people don't know how to fall And they sort of fall and then lay

Starting point is 00:42:44 Gently lay their head down I mean Quark Quark was a trained classical actor Garrick was you know Trained classically in how to fall A trained Stuttman basically that's right And one of the pluses of wearing

Starting point is 00:43:00 prosthetic makeup is you've got rubber in the back of your head That's right cushioning That that outfit that I was wearing. It was furniture pad. Literally, furniture pad because they wanted to bulk, you know, Cardassians up. Oh, you're being serious. It was. Absolutely. And let's be quite clear. People have often asked me, oh, your makeup and wardrobe were so, you know, heavy. It's

Starting point is 00:43:24 nothing compared to the Kardashians. The Cardassian makeup and costume was exponentially worse than anything I ever had to wear. Wow. But who knew that you were wearing a fernie pad, which is conducive to stunts and falling so wow good for you okay and wet suits and wet suits underneath the cardassian's wearing oh oh my goodness wow i liked a bit in this scene though arman i don't know if you remember where sid has the bottle behind his back and you swoop by and grab it out from his hand secretly do you remember if you guys came up with that business i don't i don't that might have been either in the script or kim came up with it or or sid and i came up with it but It was great.

Starting point is 00:44:06 I tend to think it was either in the script or Kim came up with. Okay. I liked it. Do you think Cardassian military aggression is a result of the wardrobe and uniforms and clothing being so oppressive that they're always angry? I'm sorry. They're never comfortable. They're never comfortable. They just want to fight people and get into battles.

Starting point is 00:44:27 Sorry. Maybe you should just change your wardrobe and then you wouldn't be so angry. Garrick had some beautiful outfits. And he was wearing my favorite, my favorite outfit. set was this a kind of autumnal, you know, multicolored, muted piece. I loved wearing it. I mean, I didn't, I hated wearing it, but I, but I, I, I love the way I looked. Yeah. Bob Blackman was very good to you. Bob Blackman, he was kind of genius, that guy. Yeah. Yeah, he was. We go to the infirmary, I think, next off of Garrick's fainting and we cut inside. We do see

Starting point is 00:45:06 the filaments, finally, this implant for the first time. Is this where, is Bashir scanning you or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Bashir scanning. We see the playback of this implant. Odo's there. Bashir asks Odo if he knows what this implant is, but Odo has no idea. Bashir says it's been there for years. He can tell by the scan that it's been there a long time, but Garik only started having headaches in the last couple days, so it just doesn't make sense. Bashir says Garrick was negotiating with Quark for something. He seemed very desperate. Maybe it has to do with this implant.

Starting point is 00:45:43 And Odo reveals that he can monitor or he often monitors Quark's phone calls. How rude, Armin. How rude of Odo. No privacy. But Odo does tell Bashir to meet him in security at O200 to listen in on Quark's next call when he closes the bar. So Odo's got your number there, Armin. Odo, in this episode, is shown to be somewhat of a conservative autocrat. Absolutely, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:46:15 Which is, again, good writing. He's one of our heroes. He doesn't give his shit about the pain that Garrick is going through. That's right. Yeah. All he's concerned about is keeping law and order. That's right. I found that interesting because I'm a great fan of Odo's, but Armin is anyway.

Starting point is 00:46:34 And I think Quark is, too. But it's interesting they made him out to be somewhat of a, I don't mean politics, but a conservative point of view, a very conservative point of view. Yeah, he's very law and order, but at the same time, he's willing to break the rules if he thinks that will help him serve justice. That's right. That's right. Which is, that's the autocrat part of it for sure. Yeah. So Bashir and Odo Talk, they're going to meet at 0200.

Starting point is 00:47:01 That's two in the morning, by the way. That's right. Seems late to be. Well, it has to be after Quark closes up the bar. True. Well, we go to Quarks. Quark's catching up with this old Cardassian friend of his. They do discuss Hartla.

Starting point is 00:47:16 Bohika asks about Hartla, the Dabo girl, that he loves. Spent a lot of time with, obviously. And a lot of money with. And a lot of money with, exactly. Quark mentions, do you want to make a little money now? Cork says he needs some Cardassian biotechnology. Bohika says, no problem. He's very friendly, bohika, by the way.

Starting point is 00:47:35 he is. Super, super friendly. Quark says he's got the requisition code number. So basically like the inventory number or something, he can give him that, but he doesn't know what it's called. We cut in the security office, Odo and Bashir watching all this on a secret camera. And back into Quarks, we see Bohika puts the code in. We see a red flashing alarm is going off on the monitor that he input this. And he's freaking out now. He says it's classified. Even this code number is classified. How did you get this? He doesn't want anything to do with it. He tells Quirk he's ruined.

Starting point is 00:48:10 He does ask where he got it. And then he goes, no, no, no, don't even tell me. I don't want to know where he got it. I like that. He was panicking. He says, maybe I'll survive this. And Quark asks, well, who would you survive it from? Who were you talking about?

Starting point is 00:48:23 Yeah. This is the first time we hear Bohika say, the obsidian order. And that's my question for Andy. Is this indeed the first time we hear the two words, obsidian order? And I was even surprised to hear it then. You know, I was surprised to hear Bohika admit Obsidian Order. But, of course, for, you know, for story purposes, he had to say it, you know. I can tell this is taking us into some future storylines that.

Starting point is 00:48:50 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Interesting. Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer? Oh, my gosh. So much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane.

Starting point is 00:49:02 Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me. me. Yes. You know what doesn't belong in everyone's epic summer plans, though? What? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. So while you're planning your beach trips and your barbecues and your three-day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Well, that is why I made the switch to mid-mobile. The coverage and speed are the same as I'm used to, but the savings. That is the difference. The savings are incredible. And now I'm saving all kinds of money for when my stepdaughter wants to go back to school shopping. She's currently at the mall right now as we speak. Well, all

Starting point is 00:49:34 All the Mint Mobile plans come with high-speed data, unlimited talking tax, and they deliver the nation's largest 5G network. So this year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash TDF. That's mintmobile.com slash TDF. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited-time new customer offer for first three months only. speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details we go back to the promenade otto's filling i think bashear in on the obsidian order they're a very

Starting point is 00:50:15 intense intelligence gathering group um bashear wonders if they maybe they put the device the obsidian people put the device in uh in garrick's head for punishment for punishment exactly and odo wonders why would he want another one? Why is he trying to get another one if this thing is a punishment device and it's causing him so much trouble? Why would he want another one? And this may be me not having followed the episode

Starting point is 00:50:44 as close as you should have. That question I don't think ever gets answered. Why does he want another one? Because he's addicted. No, I understand he's addicted. It's a device in your brain. Yeah. You can put it in?

Starting point is 00:51:00 well i i can't you know exactly why so i couldn't put it in but i mean but there must be there must be yeah i mean i guess he was you know we're not not thinking about who's going to put it in yeah he didn't think that at all his good friend he just he just wants the thing to work so he can get he can get that hit yeah but but we know that it's the inside his brain this is i mean this is the flaw in as i'm watching and then when the episode was over i went did that ever get answer about why he wanted another one, except for it, he was addicted. There was one mention when they talk about what he was trying to get. It was this implant with like instructions or something diagrams. I forget the other thing they mentioned. I actually have written it down. Go ahead.

Starting point is 00:51:46 Yeah, it implied to me that he wanted to get a working device and the instructions and then he would figure out how to either repair the one in there. He says, he wants to know about the, about the Cardassian biotechnology and installation. That's the quote from the... That's what it is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I remember hearing that.

Starting point is 00:52:06 But who's going to do that? Well, but the thing is, does he want another one? Or is that information just to be able to deal with the one that's there? Oh. Well, it says installation, Andy. So that means it's going to go in. Who's going to put it in? These are the words from the...

Starting point is 00:52:23 I didn't make these up. We're not allowed to make words up in Star. That's right. So that's so true. That's interesting. You know, I hadn't thought of that. I would have thought he just wanted the thing removed. But then with the installation, I'm thinking, okay, maybe he just wants it replaced because he loves having that drug.

Starting point is 00:52:42 Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Well, he's a revelation. And who's going to do it? Yeah. Listen, he's an armin. Garrick is a drug addict. He's not thinking clearly.

Starting point is 00:52:53 He's just trying to get the stuff. Well, that's right. See, that's right. Yeah. Just give me this stuff. Give me my hit. Give me my hit. I want to keep feeling the same feeling. I suppose if you paid Quark enough money, he'd install it for you. It works like looking at a YouTube video of how to install this. He's like, okay, step one. First I put the first anesthetize the patient. I need anesthesia. That's just an extra cost. He doesn't need anesthesia.

Starting point is 00:53:27 Do you have insurance for this? Yeah. So Bashir gets filled in on... On the obsidian order. On the obsidian thing. Yeah, basically the obsidian order. I like, Robbie, I like Odo's line. He said even the Romulan Taushiar can't compete with them.

Starting point is 00:53:47 So the obsidian order is the most bad of all CIA-type organizations out there, evidently. Which makes it pretty hardcore. because my understanding of the Telshar is they're pretty hardcore. So for the obscene order to be even beyond them is a very scary. I can't wait to see what's coming up with the storyline. I know there's more to this, but we haven't seen it yet. Read my book. Read your book.

Starting point is 00:54:11 A stitch and kind. A stitch in time. Read his book. Really? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I get into the whole thing of, you know, of the obsidian order and, you know, and how one is chosen and, you know, and the training that you go through, The Apprenticeship.

Starting point is 00:54:26 Tell us more about the book. Honestly, when I first got the job of Garrick, I didn't know is this thing, Kardashians, these aliens, what is this? You know, and so basically for myself, and I used to, I did this as an actor. I would write bios for my characters, you know, and I started writing up, you know, I better write a bio for this dude because I have no idea what this is about. Right. And then I'd go to these conventions and I'd realize, oh, I should, I should start reading.

Starting point is 00:54:55 I should start reading the back story I've been writing about for Garrick. So I would read, you know, the backstory and the fans loved it because I got tired of, you know, just saying how many hours it took to do my makeup. And then out of that, I got really involved. You know, it's, it was bizarre. I'm not quite sure why I did, but it was, it became a lot of fun to write. And then I basically wrote this book, you know, about, Garrick about his childhood and about, you know, after Deep Space Nine.

Starting point is 00:55:32 Wow. And it is not only a wonderful backstory, it's brilliantly written. Psychologically, it's incredibly well written. The psychology behind what Andy is writing about his character and other characters is quite, quite remarkable. All right. I'm going to get a copy of this. Yeah, Robbie and I are both going to read this for sure.

Starting point is 00:55:54 It was necessary for me because I was not a sci-fi person. Yeah. You know, and I'm kind of in a way I'm a very traditional sort of actor, you know, and essentially I'm looking for my backstory. I'm looking for the support that you need, you know, to play, you know, these various characters. And just being thrown into, you know, the sci-fi world and into an alien, you know, it was disorienting for me. Yeah. But it turned out to be one of the most creative experiences of my life. Good for you.

Starting point is 00:56:29 Good for you to do that, to follow through on that kind of inspiration, that idea. Sounds great. I can't wait to read it. It's part of the Star Trek series of books. Andy just did an audio version of it so you can get the audio version. I was just going to say. Oh, who doesn't love a good audiobook? We'll get it.

Starting point is 00:56:46 Okay. We'll do that. Yes, sir. It's a deal. Sold. One book. Called a stitch in time. Oh, we get together.

Starting point is 00:56:56 Okay. We go to the infirmary. Bashir walks in. No more Garrick. He's gone. This is more blocking that was strange to me. He walks in, sees that he's not there. A new shot, he walks around, like touches the empty bed and then leaves.

Starting point is 00:57:14 Wouldn't you just see the empty bed when you first walk in and just leave? Why would you wander over and caress the empty bed? it just seemed I guess because he had to talk to the computer he asked when Garrick left but it just seemed forced to me that blocking my nitpick is where's the nurse

Starting point is 00:57:30 where's the nurse? Shouldn't there be a nurse there too? Where's Nurse Jabara? Where's Nurse Jabara? My goodness. I love Nurse Jabara by the way. One of my dear old friends is a actor named Greg Jabara

Starting point is 00:57:40 and when I saw Nurse Jabara I was like oh I love that. So that's a real last name and not made up for Star Trek. It is a real last name. I did not know. Greg is a very, very talented actor.

Starting point is 00:57:51 Okay, good to know. All right. So he goes in, caresses the empty bed, as I mentioned, and then he leaves out in the corridor. Now you're opening a kettle of fishy. Does that show? There's return love for, I feel there is. Reciprocity. Yes, there's some reciprocity going on.

Starting point is 00:58:10 Well, Bashir is insulted and angry, and he rings the doorbell over and over, calling for Garrick, finally opens the door and he's injecting himself. Garrick is giving himself drugs as this scene begins. And like any drug addict might say, sorry, I didn't hear you knocking on the door. It seems like a very lame excuse when we saw Bashir banging on the door and screaming. He's taking his drugs.

Starting point is 00:58:36 And we learn it's an anesthetic that's strong enough to knock out an Algorian mammoth. I think Bashir says. That's big. Yeah. Yeah. So, Cardassians are as strong as Algorian mammoth. Stronger. Stronger, yes.

Starting point is 00:58:53 Exactly. Bashir does tell him in the scene, tells Garrick he won't be able to get you what you wanted. And this is when Bashir really starts pushing hard for answers. This is a long scene and a nice, a great scene, by the way. Garrick explains this was implanted in him to protect him from torture is how he describes. He says, if I'm tortured, this will release pot. positive feeling. Endorphins.

Starting point is 00:59:18 Endorphins. Yes. And then I won't, I won't respond to the torture because I'll just feel good. And it was meant just to use for those times. Because of the classified information that he has in his brief. And he cannot ever release that information. And this will stop him from releasing that information. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:34 Which indicates for the first time that he is more than a tailor. Yes. Yes. He will always have that suspicion. Right. Now he's actually said it. Yes. I had classified secrets that I was entrusted with.

Starting point is 00:59:50 So we've actually heard that, whether it's true or not. Whether it's true or not. But at least we've heard that. Yes. There's a lot of things being let, you know, being told, we're being told in this episode that are delicious. They're just Easter eggs all over the place. That's great.

Starting point is 01:00:07 Eric does mention in the scene that living on this ship is like torture for him. I love that moment too because basically it's, you know, you see Garrick being avuncular and polite and deferential and so forth. And then just his agony about, you know, how the torture of living and basically and living with these people. Yeah. You know, I mean, living on the ship also means living with the people and he can't stand the people either.

Starting point is 01:00:39 And in a way, it's so funny, reminding me of my mother. My mother was an alcoholic. The thing is, is that she was, I mean, she was a brilliant woman who, sadly, you know, just, you know, went to drink. And one of the reasons she went to drink, she couldn't stand people, you know, and she had such an attitude about people. She felt people were stupid, ignorant, you know, and whatever. And the only way she could deal with them is it was when she was in the bag. That played very much, in turn, you know, very much influence. You know, there's this thing with Garrick.

Starting point is 01:01:18 Yeah, very interesting. Very interesting your kind of connections and process and playing out these stories and things. Oh, yeah. What a wonderful anti-Star Trek thing to say. Have you ever heard a character, whether it was on your show, Voyager or on TNG or any of the other shows? I hated living on this shit.

Starting point is 01:01:38 Yes, I hate these people. No, I hate this place. I hate all of you. a shock for any Star Trek fan. Yes. I hate to have been in this place. You know, no one's ever said that before. Not even my character

Starting point is 01:01:54 is ever said. Yeah. But as a viewer, you're just in shock that the entire time we've known the character of Garrick, he's been high. You know what I'm saying? He's been high on these endorphins. Which sort of explains his charm.

Starting point is 01:02:08 Don't you think? Exactly. Garrick does mention, though, that this thing was not intended to use continually. Right. It was just meant for just the torture moments to help get through that. But it was living, you know, I mean, because the air pressure, the gravity, you know, obviously living among these various races.

Starting point is 01:02:28 The claustrophobia being in the makeup? That's right. Boy, that got me too. Well, he's been using this thing continually. It's finally starting to break down. And Garrick does say here, I want you to know who you're trying to. saved. You want to hear who I am. And he reveals a lot in this scene. He reveals that he was a gull in the war. He ordered the destruction of a ship that he suspected was carrying runaway

Starting point is 01:02:55 Bajorn prisoners. And he realized afterwards that he inadvertently killed the daughter of a prominent military official. That's why he was banished here. That's what he says in this scene. Right. The story may change as we move ahead. But he does start to admit things that you're not sure why he would tell this story about himself unless it were true because it's not a very flattering story and he's in pain so when assumes that when you're when someone's in pain that they'll tell you the truth yeah yeah yeah that's why the book was really interesting how do you train a spy how do you train someone who is who can keep a secret and then what does that do to you when you and that's why i love you know say john le carre's you know books there's a lot of john

Starting point is 01:03:38 Le Carre, you know, influence in terms of, you know, my approaching Garrick. And it got to the point, you know, I didn't know what the truth was either. You know, I, and even now I'm trying to thinking, well, what is the truth? What is the, what is the truth here? I mean, you know, and it becomes very fluid, very relative, you know, in this, in this extreme emotional place. And because you're an intelligent, you know, person and, you know, and you have an imagination, you know, and you're talking about this character, Elam, because this is the first time, you know, we always up it to this point, he was just Garrick. And then this is the first time that the name Elam comes into it. Yeah, and he says it was his assistant or something in this first version of the story. Yeah. And objectifying this,

Starting point is 01:04:30 this, this, this, this, this Eam. Right. Yeah. Quite honestly, I was never into Star Trek. I never, I never watched the original series, never watched Next Generation. I went to the audition because it was, you know, the chance to maybe to play a series regular, you know, up for the character of Odo and so forth. I was never engaged in any of that stuff. And the huge surprise, and this happened on this episode. And, you know, once we got into the section where he's in duress, he's an extremist with you know with this with this wire mechanism breaking down and and he going insane that this was like one of the finest acting opportunities I had ever had and and and the support that I got I mean the Kim you know never got in my way matter of fact it was Jonathan West the the DP who told

Starting point is 01:05:32 Chris, just throw on a camera, throw on a handheld camera, and just, you know, and just, just follow him, just follow him. And so those long verbal moments when, you know, I, obviously, I had to stay within, you know, the parameters of the blocking and the, in the lighting. And the lighting. Yeah. But, but still, I mean, Chris, you know, who was. Chris is the camera operator. Yeah, he was the camera operator. And, and he just followed him. And, And Jonathan said, just follow him. Just follow him wherever he goes, whatever he does. Then I was like totally engaged in a way.

Starting point is 01:06:10 I, you know, I haven't been many times in a career that's going on for a long time. You've said something here that I'm very interested in. You have several realities in this script. You get the script. I would assume you got it no more than 48 hours before you started having to shoot. That's right. That's the way it normally is. Some things are contradictory, antithetical to other things in this script. Did anyone say to you, this is the truth?

Starting point is 01:06:38 Or this is what we want? That's one of the things that I found a problem with doing the show was that no one ever really gave us notes. And that we got scripts and we had to make our own decisions about the scripts, which may or may not have been what either the direct. or the writers want it. And in this case, Andy, you were given a script where it's all over the place.

Starting point is 01:07:08 There's no through line, really. It's what you're coming up with. Your attachment to the moment is most important. That's what galvanizes as we watch the episode. But no help to say, what do I do with this now that I have it? No, and that was fine with me. Because I recognize that there was an opportunity. I mean, because I'm the kind of actor that I love that, because I have enough craft.

Starting point is 01:07:35 I can stay within the parameters of the scene and the dramatic situation. When I was a young actor, I would go off on a toot, and it was like, it was, it was insane. It was like watching this insane young man work. I think that happened with when I was doing Dirty Harry, when I was given permission to really just go insane. But it was the director, Don Siegel, who gave me the most. important piece of advice, film advice, ever. And it's going to sound absolutely pedestrian when I tell you what it was. What Don Siegel told me, because I was trying to come up with, you know, a psychological background and reasons and so forth. And he said, wait a second, he said,

Starting point is 01:08:21 let's, let's, I don't give it a shit about any of that. He marked out his frame. He said, you enter the frame and it's all about action you move there you do that you do that you do that and if there's language you know there's language there are words and so forth and then you exit the frame and the only thing i'm concerned about is what happens in that frame i don't care about any of anything else and for me and it's it's still a mystery to me it was completely completely liberating I did the same thing here There are moments in this sequence where I lost the text

Starting point is 01:08:59 and then I was right up in front of Sid's face and I just started to laugh and it's one of the most wonderful moments I've ever had I just started laughing in his face and then the text came back and I was able to continue there's nothing I've ever done better

Starting point is 01:09:16 I think on film than this this whole section that we're talking about And it was a revelation for me. I feel like doing this podcast with Armin and Terry and what Garrett and I did about Voyager before has really grown my appreciation of everyone's work on these shows. I agree with you. And what Sid did.

Starting point is 01:09:39 Sid was like the trapeze catcher. Sid was like the catcher. And Sid was there. Yeah. I mean, totally, solidly there. Mm-hmm. completely, completely there. Because neither one of us knew what was going to happen.

Starting point is 01:09:56 It really was quite wonderful. And Jonathan West, to his credit, he just told Chris, the camera, you know, the camera operator, just throw the camera on your shoulder and follow them. Follow. Whatever happens, just follow. And to Kim Friedman's credit, she did not get in the way of that either. She got that happen. That's exactly right, Gary.

Starting point is 01:10:14 Good job on Kim. She saw that it could happen. And it would flourish if she wouldn't get in the way. And it did. That's right. Well, at the end of this scene, Garrick has given this version of his, of his truth here doesn't reflect nicely on him

Starting point is 01:10:31 for blowing up a ship and killing all the Bajoran prisoners and the daughter of a military officer. But he shares all of this, Bashir says, I don't care about any of that. You're my patient. I just want to save your life. And I will help you deal with this withdrawal from these endorphins.

Starting point is 01:10:49 Just tell me where the triggering. devices. And Garrick says top drawer, second drawer, whatever he says. In the desk, second drawer. Yeah. So now Bashir's got the triggering device. He can start to try to control this. Yeah. But this is also seeing, Robbie, that we have to say that this is where we learned the name of Anabrant Tain. So that's the one truth. That's the one truth that was there, that this was, he was the head of the obsidian order. That wasn't made up, right? So this is one fact in the story. We do find Garrick later in a bed with a device on his head and the medic is present here. And Bashir says, good night to the medic.

Starting point is 01:11:25 He says that he'll be here for the next 26 hours. He's not going anywhere. He's going to sit with Garrick. And then he asked the computer about this erodeon-Cardacian lymphatic system. Computer, again, doesn't have enough data on Cardassian physiology. Otto comes in. Bashir says, you know, Garrick's been sleeping since I turned the implant off. so let's step outside

Starting point is 01:11:46 Odo and Bashir step outside and Odo reveals he thinks that Garrick knows something about four murders that Odo believes were committed by the obsidian order and he wants to talk to Garrick Bashir says you know what he's in shock he may not recover for a long time maybe not even at all and Oda says well I want to talk to him now then

Starting point is 01:12:08 so Odo doesn't care about his suffering or withdrawal or any of that he wants answers But Bashir pulls medical rank in this moment, says it's off limits to anyone who's not medical staff, and Odo kind of grumpily leaves. Again, that's a flaw for me. That's a flaw. That he can pull medical rank? Starfleet are guests on the station. They are in charge, but they are guests of the Bajoran government.

Starting point is 01:12:38 Odo is Bajorn security. There can be a standoff. yes but he can't really pull rank he can't really say i outrank you that that to me went no that's that's not right now i also found it interesting that that from what you just said that odor doesn't care whether garrick lids or dives he just wants justice he just wants justice and that's indicative to otto's character yeah yeah yeah it's interesting the the starfleet pejorin balance you know i on our show we didn't think about that never no it was just starfleet and janeway told the told us the rules and that's how it was

Starting point is 01:13:19 yeah but uh yeah it's much more complicated on your show sure is much more complicated yeah well we go into garrick's quarters next uh we've got this nice um cross faded time time lapsie montage scene yeah yes yeah and it was really like drawn out which surprised me because often on a TV show, that felt much more like a movie than a TV thing. Usually TV is like boom, boom, boom. Yes, but we never saw that on Voyager, though. We didn't see a time fate. Did we ever see that?

Starting point is 01:13:53 No, I don't think so. Certainly not as drawn out. This was really landing this idea that Bashir is being very patient. He's not leaving Garrick's side with his patient. Yeah. And I have a thought about that. As much as we've been talking about Garik's point of view and what he's going through in this episode and that of course is absolutely true but this is in my opinion the first episode we see the

Starting point is 01:14:21 growth of Bashir in in the audience's eyes we see that he's more than just a flippant young medical student who who is charming and and doesn't have much of a backbone that's right that's that's what we've been seeing for a year and a half and and I think this drawn out care, that he's taking care, is one way of building up this other side of Bashir that we haven't seen, that he's a caring man, that he feels for his friend, he's doing his medical job, he's not sleeping. We're learning that there's more to Bashir than we thought there was. And I think a lot of this episode is meant to do that, is meant to show us Bashir as indeed a hero of this show. You're absolutely right, Armin. And that's why Sid's

Starting point is 01:15:12 stepped up. He stepped up and did it. There's a maturity, you know, in his performance. For me, it was his most mature acting episode. Yeah, he carried a, he carried a bunch of responsibility in this episode. The story for, yes, growing his character in a real mature way, an adult, professional way. Yeah, I did a great job. I mean, he's standing up to Odo in the scene we just discussed. Yeah. Part of that. And his standing up

Starting point is 01:15:42 to Inabrin Tain. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That is the crown and glory of that arc. Is that scene with Anabintame. Yeah. Well, we go through the time lapse.

Starting point is 01:15:54 Finally, Garrick does wake up. And he's crying, though. It seems like he's crashing pretty hard from withdrawal in this scene. Bashir's trying to calm him down. But Garrick gets wilder and wilder. He admits he didn't destroy the ship. and he didn't kill all the people in this version of the

Starting point is 01:16:12 the truth he's sharing he says he let them go that the there were children there were five or six children I think and the children didn't know anything and he was cold interrogating them this whole thing was pointless so he just let them go that's why he was exiled

Starting point is 01:16:27 he does say in the scene he repeats how much he hates it here but he also says he hates Bashir too which you could see that land on Sid and Bashir Yeah. Yeah, a chilling moment actually. Yeah. And this leads to a big fight. They wrestle around. They break some furniture. I don't think you toppled over the couch and everything. That was a double, right? Oh, that was a double. Yeah. Yeah, that had to have been a double. Nice, nice messy fight scene. You break some furniture. And then Garrick has another attack of this withdrawal. And Bashir calls the infirmary. I felt like at the end of the

Starting point is 01:17:08 the scene. Bashir got, you know, the advantage on you for a moment. But if you hadn't had this attack, you were so out of control, you might have really hurt Bashir. One would think so. Despite being a phenomenal actor is a slight person. Garrick is hefty because of the costume and everything else he's wearing. Plus what you've told us about being better than some sort of mammoth. They're very strong. Yeah. And he could have easily smothered him with the furniture pad. He could, I'm sure. His fernie pads. Furny pad smothering. It happens. After this fight and another horrible attack on Garrick, we're back in the infirmary.

Starting point is 01:17:46 Bashir's trying to figure out why his lymphatic system is failing. He can't figure out. He goes to some tissue samples and he goes through all of these samples with a computer over time until he catches a discrepancy there. And so they know they need a little time to deal with this, what it's doing to his tissues. The nurse says, you know, maybe we can turn back on this implant. keep him alive for a couple of weeks while we sort out this damage to his tissues. When we hear Garrick say, nope, never again.

Starting point is 01:18:15 He's been listening. He was conscious and does not want the implant turn back on. And then he confesses to Bashir, again, another version, the truth of this story, where he says he and Elam were friends, very close friends. They were almost like brothers. And that they rose up to great power in the obsidian order. together. And then when someone in the order was accused of letting Bajoran prisoners go, Garrick admits that he planned on setting his friend Elam up to take the fall for this,

Starting point is 01:18:49 but Elam beat him to it. And he framed Garrick, and Garrick was exiled to DS9. And he ends this scene with asking forgiveness. He just wants forgiveness for thinking about setting up his dear friend and like a brother, Elam. And Bashir forgives him for whatever he did. Bashir at this point is like, I don't know which story is true, but I forgive you for whatever you did. And that forgiveness means a lot, and Garrick falls back asleep at the end of the scene. I think we cut to the outside of the station. We see a shuttle departing because Bashir said at the end of the very end. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:24 Yeah, he's told Jabara the nurse, he's going to go find the man responsible for all of this. Again, I had a problem with that. He's the doctor on a station with hundreds, if not thousands of people to leave. there is no other doctor no we've hardly heard jabara say two words so we can't depend on her you know suppose uh cisco's shoulder acted up again you know you got in another fight with an admiral he's gonna pull a muscle what if cisco gets a tummyache who will he go to oh my goodness but shouldn't he have gotten authorization from cisco to leave the station in a runabout to go to Cardassian territory?

Starting point is 01:20:07 There's the missing scene there. Okay. Well, we see this run about leaving. I guess Bashir can just beam inside someone's house because he beams right into Tain's living room, I didn't know we could do that. I had a problem with that, too. The obsidian order would have had, you know, better safe. Oh, my God. Yes.

Starting point is 01:20:28 Yes. It would have been completely shielded. There's no way anybody could beam into it. The head of the ex head of the obsidian order. his home. Not only does he beam in, but he goes over to his computer and starts playing around with it. Rummaging around, yeah. He did play that comical moment of that like, oh, excuse me, like when the Nobren walks in. You saw Sid being Sid for a quick second right there. Yeah. Yeah, Tane enters, welcomes him. And we see here that Tain knows everything about Bashir.

Starting point is 01:21:00 He even knows his favorite drink. He offers to replicate him a drink, his favorite, extra sweet. or whatever he says. Yeah. And Bashir reveals that he's trying to save Garrick and wants some medical information. Tane agrees to send over the physical data or the medical files, the Cardassian medical files. He said, sure, I'll give you this stuff. Tane says, if you were really a good friend of Garrick's, you just let him die. Because life and exile has got to be worse than death for him.

Starting point is 01:21:31 And then Bashir asks about his friend Elam. Tane breaks out into laughter, he said, that's not his friend. That's his first name. That's his first name. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Love that.

Starting point is 01:21:47 Also in the introduction, just to rewind just a little bit. Yeah. Tane does say, and your Dr. Julian, Subatoy, Bashir. That's the very first time we've heard a middle name for Bashir of Subitoy. And it's so not what you would think it would be. No. I mean, it's, it could have been Julian Rocket Raccoon Bashir. I mean, it could be, it could have been anything.

Starting point is 01:22:12 It's so random. Super Toy doesn't even sound like a human name. No. It doesn't sound like a human name, though. Subatoy? It will pay off later. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:22:25 Okay, thank you. Our writers never forget. They're like elephants. They never forget. We're starting to see that now. Tame does say at the end of the scene, though, he goes, wow, Garrick's never changed. never tell a truth when a lie will do

Starting point is 01:22:37 yeah lovely line it's a great one lovely line yeah and then Bashir beams back right out of his living room I guess yeah because if you beamed onto like the the town square

Starting point is 01:22:49 you'd have to build the set or go in location easier just to beam inside straight into the list save the money for the bottle episode yeah we go back to the repliman next Bashir is sitting alone kind of playing with his food

Starting point is 01:23:00 when Garrick arrives with a tray Garrick in the scene basically acts like nothing happened in the scene. He's confused why Odo thinks that he was in the obsidian order. He told him, no, I never, never would have been in the obsidian order. Bashir wants to know what part of your stories are true, Garrick. And I love this line when Garrick says, it's all true, especially the lies. That's really one of the best.

Starting point is 01:23:29 Yeah. I was in Connecticut on a convention, a couple of weeks ago. And there were some fans at the table. And they were talking about this episode. We were talking about it. And you mentioned, and why, why people are so attracted to Garrick's whole take on truth and lies and so forth. And I was saying to them, I said, well, you know, I mean, it's, it's like you think about it. You can tell a lot about a person from the kind of lies that person tells. You know, you can really understand a lot about that person. I think to go back to, you Why are people attracted to this character who, you know, plays with the truth?

Starting point is 01:24:08 Has a secret. It's relatable. Everybody's experiences. We've all got things that we are ashamed of, or we just don't want people to know about us, that we hide, we repress or deny in our own lives. That's relatable. But certainly the most fascinating thing about characters on TV shows or in films or in novels, for that matter, are when they have a secret. a secret that we know there's something behind the eyes there's something happening there that we're not privy to and everything inside of us wants to find out what that is that's right yeah that's

Starting point is 01:24:45 right and that was the attraction to garrick certainly i think a large part that was the attraction to garrick yeah andy great episode it is loved your work i loved watching your work it really is it was a gift to be able to watch and see you do some amazing, amazing work here. And may I point out, it's an episode where we have very little Starfleet. We have a Starfleet doctor, yes, but he's acting as a doctor, not as a Starfleet officer. Correct. Watching the episodes on Delta Flyers, I've come to realize there was a lot of lower decks in our show that I hadn't realized before. There's a lot of things happening beneath the gaze of Starfleet that our writers took on and explicated.

Starting point is 01:25:37 Certainly, Garrick's story is incredible. This is an incredible story is one of them. Absolutely. I wrote down, the truth is sometimes not that simple. That was the theme I got. Garrick, in a way, is telling a lot of truths, even though maybe some of the details aren't exactly correct, historically. They're psychologically true and not factually true.

Starting point is 01:26:08 Exactly. Exactly. Armand, what is your theme or lesson? I have not a very good one. I've taken to looking for quotes to explicate themes, and I found this quote, and now that I look at it, it's not pertinent, but I will read it anyway. liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear

Starting point is 01:26:34 when I wrote this down I thought oh there's a lot of that in the episode but I now in hindsight I don't think that was the best quote I could have found interesting I see the connection but it's an interesting perspective on this story don't go anywhere we'll be right back Garrett what about you you got to theme? Well, you know, I was thinking you always hear that old saying, you can't judge a book by its cover, right? So instead of, you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a story by its first version. That is what I was going to, yeah. Yeah, Andy, you were like, Garrick is kind of like the Star Trek writers. They're always putting out revisions and new colored pages

Starting point is 01:27:18 and yeah. That's right. Charac and his colored pages. Yes, you're revising things. That's interesting. I haven't thought of that. It's something that I do believe about truth is that it lies somewhere in the dynamic between, you know, what we say is the truth and what is the truth, you know, the words and the feelings that there's an intersection there. That last line, they're all true, especially of the lies. I find that profound, honestly. You know, I really, so, so interests me.

Starting point is 01:27:53 It's funny, talking about the truth. I remember hearing someone describe truth as almost like what a video camera would capture. Like just the data, the facts, that's the truth, right? That was how this person described truth. I just want the data. I don't want any opinions or, you know, don't give me a whole story about it. I just want the data. But in a way, the truth is not just the data.

Starting point is 01:28:16 The truth is the deeper experience someone had, and a video camera is not going to capture that, and the data is not going to capture that. Well, our Patreon poll, in terms of the theme slash moral of this episode, is submitted by Krishna Alistair, and that is, the strongest people are not the ones who show strength in front of us, but the ones who win battles we know nothing about. That's a good idea. That's a lot of meaning for me right now. Yeah, there is for sure. Thank you, Krishna. Good job. Well, there you go.

Starting point is 01:28:52 There is our recap and discussion and some poetry and a bonus theme to go with it. Pretty darn good. A lot of bang for your buck here. What more could you want? Well, you know what more people want? They've got questions for you, Andy. And if you're a Patreon member, you stick around and you can listen to Andy answer these questions. So if you're not a Patreon member, check us out at patreon.com forward slash

Starting point is 01:29:16 The Delta Flyers. Become a patron. You can hear all of this great bonus material. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in to our recap and discussion of the episode, The Wire. And many, many, many thanks to the lovely Andy Robinson for joining us for this one. We absolutely had a blast having you as our guest co-host. It was wonderful.

Starting point is 01:29:38 Thank you, sir. That was great. It was like the time just flew by. It was like five minutes. Yes. Yeah. That's what we want to hear. That's what we want to hear.

Starting point is 01:29:46 All right, so for all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material. For everyone else, join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode, The Crossover. See you soon. I'm not Burt. Bhopal. B. B.

Starting point is 01:30:21 B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B.

Starting point is 01:30:29 B. B. B. I don't know.

The Delta Flyers - The Wire

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.