The Delta Flyers - Wrongs Darker than Death Or Night

Episode Date: October 19, 2026

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.This week’s episode, Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell, and Nana Visitor. Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night: Kira learns that her mother was once Gul Dukat’s mistress. We would like to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers, Megan Elise and Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Luz R., Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts,Tom Paynter, Sandra Stengel, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, David Wei Liu, Nicki T, Roxane Ray, Tim Neumark, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jenny Cordina, Ryan Mahieu, Francesca Garibaldi, Jonathan Capps, Chris Dellman, Sean T, Cindy Woodford, Tamara Evans, & Francis Our Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sarah A Gubbins, Trip Lives, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Cindy Ring, Lee Lisle, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Andrew Duncan, Randy Hawke, Penny Liu, Matt Norris, David Smith, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Robby Hill, Kevin Harlow, Jeff Allen, Londyn Henning & Risa EinsidlerAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Warren Stine, Carl Murphy, Jocelyn Pina, AJ Provance, Brian King, Maxine Soloway, E & John, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Sara Junius, Renee Wiley, Maria Rosell, Dominique Weidle, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Steph Davies, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, Annie Davey, Jason Eberl, Jeremy Gaskin, Sarah Dunnevant, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Eddie Dawson, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, SnazzyO, Lutz Krebs, Karen Galleski, Jan Hanford, Katelynn Burmark, Cade Solsbery, Timothy McMichens, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Slacktwaddle, Leslie Ford, Jay Furness, Jim Poesl, Gabystar, Scott Bowling, Michael Jones, Ed Jarot, James Vanhaerent, Nick Cook-West, Kilian Trapp, Kit Marie Rackley, Gordon Watson, Andy Bruce, Brenton Tyler, Andrew Golden, Damien O’Donnell, Michael Bourguignon, Corey Evans, Patricia Welsch, Shannon Gregg Lucky, Ken Guthrie, Michelle Fox, Jeff Schmedinghoff, Kalena Rivera, & Justin Miller. Thank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out ElevenReader and use my code PODCAST for a great deal: https://elevenreader.io* Check out Quince and use my code TDF for a great deal: https://www.quince.comAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Your hosts for today are my fellow Trek actors, Terry Farrell, Robert Duncan McNeil, and our very, very special guest, Nana Visitor. And myself, Garrett Wong. Nana! Nan! Nana! Hey!

So happy to be here with you all. Thank you for coming back. It's always so much fun when you come always. Thanks, Robbie. Yay. Yeah. How have you been? What's going on in life? Really good. Everything is really good. Just chucking along, new grandchild, which is pretty great, going to see her later. Congratulations. Yeah. What's her name? Luna. Luna. Appropriate, right? She's in the world. Yes. That's a great name. I love that. What's the middle name? Is there a middle name? Luna Sophia. Oh, beautiful.

It's like two of family names. Back to back. I love it. Yes. That is my duolingo right now, by the way, is Italian. So just so you know. Yeah. I feel so much better now to know that. I'm glad you feel better.

Another language for Garrett. He's got like so many languages, including Klingon. He speaks Klingon. Seriously. Yeah. You are fascinating. I learn more and more about you as the years roll on. Garrett. Thank you. Wow. I just have to say Nanna's the best compliment I ever had was

after I did my I was so nervous about the first time doing my stand-up comedy on the cruise and Nanaa showed up and after I come I come off stage afterwards they're all waiting for me and Anah's the first person and she goes like, I think you found your second calling and it was like, oh my God it was such a nicest thing to hear from Nana who I respect. You were hysterical. Thank you. I'm so glad I'm doing it this year. I am it this year. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. And I've written you into my script, which you won't like. Am I part of your production? Yes. Thank you. I've been waiting to do this forever because I haven't done Johns and I haven't done yours. So I'm so happy. Can I tell you? She's a fantastic

director. I got to do it this year on the cruise. And she's mellow, efficient, kind. She's so organized and knows exactly what she wants. It's like walking through. easy breezy. It's effortless. It's fun. I'm so glad you hear that. Nana is effortless directing. That's how it looks.

And she is in her second calling, which probably was her first. Wow. What did y'all do last year, by the way, Nanah? What was the project? What was that one? I can't even think of it because I'm so into this one. It was the salt monster. The salt monster.

That's right. I don't remember what it was called, though. I have a quick game I want to play because you didn't know that Garrett spoke Klingon. So I want us to each share one thing that we think none of us know about each other. Perfect. I love this. And I'll start. Go, Robbie.

Did you know when I started out as an adolescent teenager in as a theater person, discovered theater, my first love was tap dancing. I was an obsessive tap dancer. What? face. And I went to New York and I was, I actually was the, like the dance model doing tap dancing for Tommy Toon on the project that he never completed. But I knew someone. And so I was able to tap dance with Tommy Toon in a rehearsal studio working out some choreography for this project that he never ended up following up on. But I was a tap dancer. Love it. So this is a weird connection that we have. we both danced with Tommy Tune.

Oh my gosh. That is, that is like that's amazing. That's bizarre. That's bizarre, right? You never would have expected that. Never. I'm done. Wow.

What do you guys got? What would I never expect? I'm such an open book. I don't know if there's anything that you wouldn't know. Do you know I have a, I've had a parrot for 20 years? No. I did not know that. No.

Does it speak? A little bit. He says in a very bored voice, come on dogs. I must really hate taking the dogs out because he's like, come on, dogs. And he laughs, or I know how I laugh now because he laughs like me. And he goes, oh, oh, no. I laugh like someone really trying to charm the audience. That's funny.

I did not know that. Yeah, and we almost got evicted from our apartment in New York because of the noise. Oh, no. So I started, he's only like this big. So I started traveling with him. I put him in my jacket, zip him up. He'd be like this up against me. And I went in the subway.

I went everywhere with that bird just because he would be quiet. And that's what he wanted to do. He just wanted to be with me. And I still got him. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. I did not know that. Gave me a visual of you going through security and having, oh, what is going out with this woman?

She has like a bird inside of her body. I ran into a friend once and I was laughing. And on the street, it was actually, I hate to admit it, but it was in a Whole Foods. But he was in my jacket. And he was talking to me and he made me laugh. And I went, and Luciano went, oh. But it was actually like, oh, ho! And my friend looked at my chest like, what the hell?

Oh, my God. It's like the movie aliens. You're having something coming out of your chest. Or the, what's the, oh, my God, the Schwarzenegger Mars movie. I total recall. Quato, do you guys remember that moment where he opens up on the little human head? Yes, the little human, yeah. Oh, that's right.

Terry, what about you? What don't we know about you? I had a secret desire. Well, I don't think it was so secret when I was young to be a paleontologist or an archaeologist. So when Indiana Jones came out, I was like, and I used to look through the rock piles around our apartment building thinking, I'm going to find a dinosaur bomb. And I'm reminded of all of this because I just came back from Iowa. And my sister took me to our old apartment building, the first house we used to live in. But going to the apartment building and seeing rocks, I was like, oh, my God, I used to, I used to think for sure I was going to find something.

Or digging. But it happens. People find things right in the backyard. It totally happens. Yeah. And my friend Robin Bruce and I used to dig in her yard. Oh, her mom got so mad at us. But they lived on acreage.

So we were behind some trees, some big pine trees. And we dug and dug happy, happy 10-year-olds, yes. Did not know you wanted to be an archaeologist. Yeah, see? I know, right. We didn't know. I love that. Thank you.

This is a good question for future episodes. Yes. Okay. We might run out of things to say. Exactly. Gary, you got anything? Well, we kind of started with mine, which is the language thing, you know. Yeah, we did.

But if I was to answer the question from the question from the Cruz, which is kind of what this is like, what can you do other than a regular Q&A? This is what I said. I can teach a class on money management and strategy for the craps table. And they said, okay, let's get this straight. Let's let's, we have to approve this with World Caribbean. Is that a good thing? Well, here's the thing. They go to Royal Caribbean. They said, we have an actor who wants to do a seminar on how to manage your money, strategy, effective betting strategy for high risk, medium risk, low risk, you know, very detailed panel. And Royal Caribbean says, so you're actually wants to do this thing teaching people how to

bet more effectively, conserve their money and win, hopefully come home with a win at a craps table of which we do have in our casino. And then ECP was like, yeah. And then absolutely not. Nope, not only. So that's what I said, I'll do stand up then. So that was my second three. Oh, that's how you got to stand up.

That's how I got the standup gig. Look at us learning about. other after all these years. After all these years. Getting to know you. Robbie, why didn't you tap dance on the cruise? You should have tap danced when they ask you. I will when they ask me to come. The two of you. We'll tap dance. Yes. No, let's do it. And Robbie. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, we've got some birthday. It's starting with Amy Tudor on October 21st. Happy birthday, Amy. Amy, happy birthday. Have a wonderful day. Happy, happy birthday, Amy. Happy, happy birthday, Amy. Happy birthday to Amy, in the UK, happy, happy birthdays.

The dearest of all people, Amy. Guess what? October 21st is a popular day because that is the birthday of Leslie Ford. Happy birthday, Leslie. Leslie Ford, happy birthday. Happy birthday, Leslie, fowd. Happy birthday, Leslie. Have a great day. And we have Cindy Ring on October 25th.

What a glorious day to be you. Happy birthday, Cindy Ring. Cindy, have a wonderful new year. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Cindy. Happy birthday, Cindy. We'll start with Terry and hear her poem for this episode. Here we go.

Okay. It's titled Kira. Big surprise. On a journey to reveal the truth, Kira is a keen and clever sleuth. Struggling with black and white, deep shades of gray ignite. Rage, fear, abandonment take root. she must process the reality for the truth.

Whoa. Thank you. Whoa. This is my limerick. Four, wrongs darker than death or night. Kira thought her mother had been strong and was nothing but a hero all along. Then the past came to light. Things were different with hindsight.

Family stories can sometimes be wrong. Oh, yeah. Gosh, you guys are good at this. Oh, we've had some practice. Yeah. Well, I will just say thank you. Thank you, Nan. Right?

All right. Rounding out this triumvirate of poems comes my haiku, Nana, for your episode. Here's my haiku. Kira's shocking news compels her to time travel. Say it isn't so. Nice. Thank you. Very nice.

Very nice. Very nice. Thank you. We've got a Patreon-submitted poetry winner for this episode. It is a rhyming narrative verse poem by Jason Oaken. It goes like this. One never knows what secrets lie in wait. Behind those we choose to most admire.

A child's love can turn to bitter hate when those we worship stumble in the mire. Yet even wrongs far darker than the night cannot dissolve the ties of blood and soul. Forgiveness is a gift not all get right, but choosing death could take a greater toll. Ooh, Jason. Wow. Wow. Wow. Heavy stuff.

That was intense. Yeah. Very moving. Bravo. All right. Our creative juices are flowing. All right. We're ready.

We're good to go here. A little bit of facts here. This episode is written by Iris Stephen Bear and Hans Baimla and directed by Jonathan West. None other than Jonathan West, our good friend, Jonathan West. Guest stars, yes. And if anyone has anything to say on any of these guest stars, please interrupt and jump in. First of all, we have Leslie Hope as Kiramaru, Mama. We have Mark Alamo as Golda Kat, David.

I almost said David Bowie. I know. I know. It's David Bow. It was like, what? I don't remember her being on the show. David Bowie. I would have wanted to say hi.

Oh, my God, that would be amazing. I love David Bowie. All right. Next up, we have David Bow as Basso. And we have Wayne Grace as a Cardassian Legget. Tim Dazzarn as Halb Dyer. And of course, Thomas Capuchy, as Kira Tabon, Kira Noresa's father. Yes.

And Dennis Madelone in a couple of roles in this episode. Of course. Of course. Good old Dennis. With makeup, without makeup. He's all over the place. A little bit of trivia here. The original idea for this episode was to do a show based on the Nazi doctor, Joseph Mangella,

who was notorious for perform bizarre and barbaric experiments on concentration camp inmates during World War II. In the episode, the ghosts of Bajoran children were to begin appearing on the station, and the crew would come to believe that they are the ghosts of children killed by a Cardassian scientist during the occupation, who carried out research on them. However, it turns out that they aren't ghosts at all. The doctor was in fact sending the children into the future to gather information for the obsidian order. However, the writers couldn't make the story work, and it was abandoned at the last minute. Later, the idea of an infamous Cardassian doctor experimenting on Bajorans was later reused in the Voyager episode, Nothing Human.

That's interesting. So they threw it over there. Did anyone know about this originally? No. I like the idea of ghost children, though. Yeah, me too. on the DS9. Yeah, but we've already had that kind of ghost images.

Do you guys remember that episode where it had the Bajorans that were executed, kept showing up as ghost, just symbolism, I suppose, over and over again. So I kind of felt like, eh, they've already done it. Maybe they've done it, yeah. Well, maybe that's what they thought. Maybe they thought that too, yeah. But we will never know because we weren't in the room. We weren't in that room. Dang it.

Okay. Broome where it happened. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say that the comfort. women approach, that perspective, I think, is really interesting and really great that they explored that. I agree. And I remember, I don't remember how much in advance it was.

Ira, one of the rare times he came down was like, so you and Descartes are going to be lovers. And I was like, I fought him really, really hard on that. And I didn't know what the outcome was until he said, okay, I've written a script. and it's not you and Duccott, it's Ducotte and your mother. But I kind of feel really happy that I pushed in that direction because this is so much more complicated. Oh, yes. Very complicated.

Oh, yes. So about collaborators to look at that. I mean, yeah, we've looked at the two sides of my character being a freedom fighter or a terrorist, but then to look at collaborators in that way and make us go, what do you think? What should she have done? What could she have done? It's complicated.

And Kira realized how complicated it was by the end. For a minute. And then she's like, nope. Yeah. I looked up collaborators and what is a difference between a collaborator and a victim in terms of making the best of the situation. And there's a distinction. A collaborator is somebody who has enough agency to make the choice. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, and she didn't have a choice. So she was coerced and made the best of it. And there's no shame or anything wrong with making the best of it when you are in that situation, just for your own human survival. Some people can rise to that and just, compartmentalize or make peace with it on some level. And other people, I would say much like here's point of view, it's black and white when she first gets there.

And there's no choice. You fight that tooth and nail, right? So there's a lot of ways to look at it. Yeah. And I think of collaborators who did more harm to, you know, other people making a worse. choice, you know. So it's complicated.

It's very complicated. Okay, another bit of trivia. The writers then decided to do an episode about Kira and the occupation, which they had not touched on in a while, but they wanted to do something completely different. Ira Stephen Baer hadn't been entirely happy with how the Kira-Decotte relationship had ended in the episode's Sacrifice of Angels. And he began asking himself, quote, how can we take Gold-Dakot and bond him close to Kira in a way that would just make her insane, end quote.

These two ideas coalesced when Bradley Thompson suggested, what if Descartes was making it with Kira's mother? Making it. Good job, Bradley. Yeah. That's his quote. Having milkshakes at the hospital. Another bit of trivia.

This show is a favorite among the writers and producers, not least because of the episode's refusal to push the viewers. towards a particular moral position. The viewer is left to form their own views of Kira Maru's actions. In the original version of the screenplay, there was no moral ambiguity at the end of the episode with Kira clearly forgiving her mother and the viewers being encouraged to do likewise.

But Nanao Visitor argued that this wasn't true to the character of Kira, that there was no way she would be so clear about how she felt. Good for you. Oh, 100%. That would be like a... Right call. The endings that we hate in our shows that just, oh, one, two, it's done and everything's in a bow. What happened?

Yeah, that's a lot to struggle with. Then you can also have a judgment of Kira going, wow, you're just not going to. Where, you know, how are you seeing everything? What would it take for you to be able to forgive? So, yeah, I like that. It's all a shade of gray. Yeah, it really gives you a lot to contemplate. And Star Trek episodes, or at least good ones, make you think.

Just the Leggett. He was so, I mean, that is, I was watching that performance. He's so good, the one that I have to deal with. He was funny. He managed to be charming without trying to be charming. He was embedded in his righteousness of what should be coming to him. It was just, you know what it was? He didn't judge his character at all as an actor. He wasn't going, I'm playing a bad guy. He was just so fluid in what he was doing. I thought it was a beautiful performance. Wayne Grace was the actor, and he passed away in 2022, a wonderful actor. One last bit of trivia here.

The title of this episode is a quotation from the 1820 Percy Shelley Lyrical Draw. Prometheus Unbound. It comes from Act 4 lines 572 to 580, serving as the epilogue of the play as spoken by Demogorgon. Well, let's dive right in. Let's do it. Let's dive into this. We start off in Quarks. First scene is in Quarks, and Dax is trying to convince Worf to have a party. He's not into it. Nope. He goes to a holosuite to go work out. I thought this exchange was great, Terry, coming off the heels of the last episode, the rom-com episode. The banter between you two was great. The comedy was really good.

Yeah. And steering clear of cuteness, but charming. And it was just, I love that. That's not easy to do. It felt real. Yeah, very true. Even Armin and I, like, we didn't get the party. Yeah.

Well, Tara Fair, we were treated to you and Michael. Doran's tremendous job work on the prior episode of how effortless and smooth that dialogue was. This almost seemed like this was an extension of that episode, this scene to the point where when I started playing, I said, wait a minute, am I on the right episode? Is this the ending of the prior episode? That was the missing scene. Yes. And I love when they connect tonally relationships and character stories, episode to episode, and this felt very continuous. Oh, so right in the last episode. Yes. Sometimes we've seen with Kira and Odo, it's like, why don't you give us just a little more in the next episode so that we feel the follow through and the thread?

Yeah. And suddenly it's, where are they? What happened? Exactly. Yeah. But we jump and we don't see them together for three episodes. I always figured that's because that was like what our relationship was. It didn't have the easy intimacy that you and Worf, that Daxon had.

Oh, for sure. That it was, you know, that's the way we were. It was intense and then, but we were very much separate. Yeah. But there were times where it would have been nice to have, but it was super intense. So it would have helped just to have a glimpse of it, maybe even half a page. There are some things that need that thread. Yeah.

They did it with this scene with Wharf and Dax, for sure, carried it through. But often Star Trek doesn't connect. those relationship stories to your point. Like suddenly we're getting married. Yeah. And you don't generally see us together really that much. Not that much. You know, it adds up, but it,

you didn't know us together until the last episode. Yeah. Well, Worf goes off to work out and Quark has some flowers. He gives them to Kira and she thanks him. You're very friendly with Kork here. And then I had a question. Like, how did Kira's feelings about Kork? because you're often the one that's the hardest on him.

You're the... But it's changed a lot. It's changed a lot. Do you remember that relationship with the... I feel that later on, she actually has a lot of affection for him, but performatively is hard on him and would never let him know. She would consider him a friend. She would save him, but she's never going to let him know that.

Well, I like this moment with the flowers, because you were really... because you were really very warm and friendly and grateful to him. And I like seeing that side of the relationship, that it's not just always annoyed with him and things. Yeah. Well, you get the flowers. Dax follows you out to the promenade. And you buy a vase there.

I thought that vase stand was kind of random for some reason. A vase stand. There's a pop-up vaws stand on DS9 promenade. Yeah. Pop-up. Hey, we come to my pop-up vass stand? It's right over here. And then I visited the Pomander stand.

Yeah, it was kind of a random stand. And the vase you bought was about three inches high, and it won't fit those flowers. So I was like, what? Anyway, it was some good activity, business for sure. Space flowers don't need that much water. There we go. And they must have some balance to not need anything to keep them in the vase, either. That's right. There's an electrical charge that just keeps them up. Why am I making this work?

You are. You've explained it all to us. The vase itself comes with its own containment field. It's awesome. You've figured it all out. Thank you. Well, Dax and Kira walked towards the lift over there, and Dax learns a little about that it's, that it's Kira's mom's birthday and that she never met her, but she all, always thought of her very fondly like she was a hero, that her father said she was the bravest woman that he had ever met. And Kira felt the same way. So we see that affection and kind of the importance of this day, that Kira's really taking this day very seriously because she really admires her mother. We go into her quarters and Kira's asleep and the computer wakes her up. But I wanted to just comment, I hated these scenes when I was acting. to have to wake up at the start of a scene

and pretend like you're sleeping, but get into the scene, keep the pace up, and you did a perfect job. Yes, you did. Waking up. You took enough time to sort of get oriented and really wake up. I thought it was great.

Thank you. Aspiring actors, take note, watch. That was a good one. This is a, I mean, literally, people don't even think about, oh, how would it be to wake up? It must be easy. No, it's not easy to wake up on screen.

It's not. to pretend you were sleeping. No, no. So watch Nana and learn. Great. Very well done. I just wanted to call. I'm scolding people right now.

Watch Nana and learn, Dan, you all. Why are you screaming? I don't know, Robbie. I don't know. I know why. It's because DuCott's about to come on. DuCott makes a call. Yes.

And he says he wants to help Kira. He knows this is a very special today. He says, I want to help you, like Cisco, helped me to see the truth. And he tells Kira that. he and her mother were lovers and that her father lied and that they were lovers for years. He knows details, long time. He knows about a scar. He knows that her favorite flowers, lilacs.

He says lilacs, which kind of bumped for me. Did that bump for anybody else? Yes. So Ducat says he knows your mom, bottom line. And he says the truth is going to be liberating major. Now don't you feel better? I do. And she's covering here, but definitely thrown by this.

But you don't believe him at this point, right? Yeah, but I think that there is an unsettled feeling in the pit of my stomach. Especially after she heard Lylok's immediately. That's right. Because why would he bring this up? Why? I know him well enough to know there's something behind it. And there's some grain of truth.

It probably is. He doesn't completely lie about nothing. No, that's what makes him so dangerous. Yes. My question to you, when this truth was revealed, did your jaw fall on the ground like my did watching this episode? I was like, what the? Huh?

Well, especially, and let's just, let's deal with this right now. He was going after Kira. Yes. This entire series. So he was with her mother? Reepy. We addressed that part. That creepy part.

We go to Kira on the computer. She sits down and looks up the files on her mom here. And she wants to know about the occupation file for her mom and the refugee center. And the data comes up. So we see that he did get to her. She's looking up some of the details about her mom. All right. Well, Kira goes up to ops.

And I want to say about this opening scene after the credits, Jonathan West is a master. The way that he shot you coming up and the boys in the foreground revealing them and the elegance of this master shot is as good as it gets. It was so beautifully done and it was flawless. So yay, Jonathan West. Yeah. But the boys are chatting about personal issues in the foreground. Miles wants to play the Alamo holodeck game.

Julian doesn't understand why they'd play a game where they lose in the foreground. the end. She was listening to this, but getting annoyed, and basically cuts them off and snaps at them, get back to work. Tells everybody in us, get back to work. We're not here for Ract to Gino's and gossip. Get back to work. Great shift.

Yeah. Ducaut has gotten under her skin. Oh, boy, he has. Sometimes in these kind of scenes, I'm like, where is Cisco? He's in his office. Is he? Okay. I would think so.

That's what I thought. Although why doesn't he come out and go, what, what's going on? Well, because, no, no, he's busy being the emissary, clearly. That's right. He's got some emissary duties. He's got, yeah. That's right. Okay.

He could be on the phone with, or on the phone. He's on the phone. He's on his cell phone. With his agents. He's on a star tack, like, flip open. Why are I in this episode more? He's talking to his papa. All right.

Well, Kira's. Kira's thrown a bit, clearly. She's snapping at everybody. She goes in to check with Odo about some petty theft on the promenade. And she kind of overreacts to that as well, wants him to handle it personally. And he knows immediately something's bugging her. He offers to talk about it. She doesn't want to talk about it.

And he says, well, then maybe you should do something about it. Love that answer. Some action. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it. Maybe do something about it. But not much Odo lately in this season.

We haven't seen him very much. You know what I mean? To Terry's point earlier, we haven't seen Kira and Odo together much at all for a while. To my point, this scene is the perfect example of what their relationship is. I think even after they're romantically involved, he doesn't go, hey, hey, hey, what's wrong? You know, and take her by her shoulders and what's going on with you?

He's like, okay, you don't want to talk about it. And just this exchange between them that is really, what is that? There's a lot of self-containment from both of them. But respect, care, but it's not outwardly affectionate at all. No, but it still flows. It still flows, this scene. And that's to my point that it's helpful that you guys are in a small scene together. In a scene together, yeah.

Yes. Yes. It doesn't have to be about it. But it's important to see you together. In a daily interaction, right, Tara Farron? Just one little tiny bit, yeah. Yes. Speaking of interaction, we have an interaction with Kira and Cisco.

She basically wants to consult the orb of time. She wants to go back in time. And Cisco's like, wait a minute. She wants to go back in time to check on the story about her mom. That's what she wants to do. And Cisco says, hold on a second. There's rules. Starfleet has rules about time travel.

And she says, I'm not asking you. is the captain, I'm asking you as the emissary. You're the emissary. The prophets will be guiding me through this, and nothing will happen without their blessing. Please, emissary. You don't even refer to him as captain. You say, please, emissary.

Please let me speak with the prophets. He's in a tough pickle there sometimes. This made me aware of that very sharply, that he's got to be a captain and the emissary, and they don't always line up. We go to the temple of Iponu, where Kira is escorted into this chapel, where this orb box sits on the altar. I have to say it is a beautiful set, that set, with the statues and the candles,

a million candles in there. It was really beautiful for such a small moment. I mean, it's really just you walking to the box, opening it, and then closing it at the end of the story. But they built this gorgeous set. And Jonathan, again, with that high angle off the crane arm or whatever, seeing all of it. It's beautiful. Yeah. But you get to the box, you open the box of the orb, and this light just floods your face,

and we sort of transition into a light in this refugee set. So a beautiful kind of, I don't know, artsy transition that Jonathan did there to take us back in time. And now we're at the refugee center. And then you have more hair suddenly. I have a lot more hair. I have a lot of hair. Yeah. How did that work?

Well, but you notice I have a lot of long hair and then little wispy, tiny, short ones sticking out. Because you're a refugee. Your hair's got to be a little messy. Who knows what happened? They took it and snapped some of it. I don't know. But I had so much hair, luckily, and it was like curly perfect. I could just like attach it with one thing.

and it looked great. It did look great. Yeah. I actually liked it. It was like, wow. I did too. I thought it looked great, but I definitely noticed like, oh, she goes back in time and she's got new clothes and a new hairdo.

That's right. Hang on one second, but I noticed, and I'm not sure it's in the first scene, didn't you have your same earring? I didn't notice. Oh. I think it's your same earring, and it's a personal thing, right? Isn't your earring specific to you and have some meaning about saying who your family is? Some religious movies?

Oh, so they would recognize that as the family earring, basically. They would know that. Is that true? Or do you even know? Detective Terry. I just thought so. I was like, I don't know. It's just I thought that was part of it.

I'm in an episode where I'm saying hi to my child's self. I've got bigger questions. Yes, yes. But this is me in the nitpick department about the earring. Well, she's got this new outfit, the new hair. Maybe she has an earring. We'll see. Detective Terry's on the case.

Kira, she's by a rock wall. And it's very dark. There's children crying. People are eating food, you know, scavenging for food. And then a man comes in carrying a child and leading another child. and Kira looks over, sees her mother. It's to the bond. Her father carrying two of their children,

and then Kira watches, sees that the family is starving. She sees her younger stealth there. And then a man appears with Dennis Madelone in human form this time. Man appears, or I guess in Bajoran form. And they want to steal the soup that the family has. they have very little food, but Maru is there, Taban is there, the kids are all there, and Kira sees her mom, sees herself as well. Anyway, this man and Dennis Matalone are there to steal soup.

Dennis pulls a knife out on Tobon's neck. That's when Kira speaks up, fights them, kicks their butts, of course. Oh, yeah. Right? They're terrified of her. They run. Yeah. Good moves, by the way.

And you beat up Madel, Matalone. You beat up Dennis Madelon. I do that regularly in the show. He shows me how to do it and then I do it. But what I saw was when I picked up the knife, I realized I can't use this. I want to use it. But they're not letting me use it. That was, I saw that moment.

Yeah. Yeah, you can't change history like that. Do you have a memory of the kids, the kid actors on set, like how that was? Because we didn't have kids on Star Trek very often. No. I hated it any time there were kids on set because, you know, I mean, they're called child ranglers. And, you know, and if there's an infant, especially when I was giving birth and it was a newborn, they wouldn't let the mother hold the baby. Which is like, come on.

Yeah. You're offset. It had to be the wrangler. and the baby's crying. So I always just kind of had to go, I hate this. That's my memory of it. Could they not find a little girl with brown eyes? Thank you.

That was my nitpick. That was so crazy irritating to me. I'm like bright blue eyes. But they weren't just blue. They were like white blue. They were like, yes. What you don't know is pejoran children's eyes change. Change as they get older.

as they get older. But you're right, Tara Farah, that pulled me out. It did. I was like, damn it gave a little bit of points for me. And within the, I just had to take some because that is, that felt lazy. Yeah, it did. Well, her face looked great. The little girl playing.

Yeah, but she also looked nothing like Nana. So who cares? Really? She had blue eyes. But the facial structure, though, was the na na, young Nana. But the eyes took me out, out, out. Okay. Okay.

The eyes. detective. We got it. Detective nitpick is he is detective nitpick. Terry Farrell. And I am right. You are right. I agree with you. My ego is holding on to this very tightly.

I know it is. Because it bothered me for her too. I mean, you are excellent in the entire show. And when there's a slip, it's not you. It's definitely. There's no slipping on your part. We meet the family. We meet the kids. Kira meets her younger self.

And then Basso, this Bajoran collaborator. and he is a collaborator. He's chosen to help the Cardassians here. He comes in and says, these Kardashians need some comfort women, people. They start taking people. Maru is taken, cure is taken. Very unsettling moment.

And Tabin's there holding the baby with the other two kids. Dad's left with the three kids. But that littlest baby was really crying. The infant. And that's what I hate in these scenes. I think they do it on purpose, though. Isn't that why they have twins sometimes?

I remember someone telling me that they want twins and one having a more calm disposition than the other so that they literally take the cranky one when they need the baby crying or not let the mother hold it. Isn't that mean? That is so mean. So the takeaway for everyone listening is if you have children, don't let them go into show business. Yes, not that job. Not for kids. Don't put your daughter on this stage, Mrs. Robinson.

That's right. I had a little bit trivia. The doll held by young Kira Norese appears to be loopy, a doll belonging to Molly O'Brien. Probably the only thing they could find. Yeah, probably. Get her a doll. Problems, quick. Quick, Molly O'Brien has one.

Here we go. This is the one we'll use. Well, they're marching these comfort women down the corridor, and they're being assigned doorways or rooms, I guess. And Kira does see the pattern in how they're being assigned. And so I love this little detail moment here,

Nana, where you switch places so you can get room, you know, become roommates with Maroo. So very smart. We see Kira being smart. And she is assigned quarters with Maru. And they go inside and Kira immediately says, we'll

figure out how to escape. So I was wondering here, and a, like, because you can't change history. But although now I'm correcting myself, you were told by dad that she died in a refugee camp. So you think getting her out of the comfort women thing and back into the camp probably tracks with history. You just answered your own question, Robin. I answered my own question.

But also, I think at a certain point, she would, you know, she obviously is leaving that up to the profits and she's going to do whatever she can to change this situation. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, as you're figuring out how to escape, Maru sees all this food on the table. And I will say there was some beautiful looking food. Oh, I've never been hungry from watching studio, you know, film food or TV food, but I was hungry this time. Yes.

Yes. And Maru's excited. She starts just gobbling up all the food. And then she remembers Tabin, her husband and the kids, and she just breaks down crying. I love this moment when she starts crying over by the window. The lighting here is beautiful. Beautiful lighting. I'm sure because Jonathan West was directing and very invested in the episode.

You guys look great. Yeah, like a sunset. It was like a peachy kind of color. It was beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, Kira comforts her, kind of moves her hair back and sees the scar that Dukot mentioned.

Uh-oh. Maybe Dukot wasn't lying. And then Maru does mention in the scene, she says, why do you keep helping me? You know, over and over, you keep helping me. And so we feel immediately this bond of like Maru really is grateful for this and touched by it very deeply. So, yeah, the scene ends with them being best buddies and clearly bonded. More than Maru knows. They're bonded much more than that.

I'm waiting for Maru to go, you look. So familiar. You know, you would think that that line would come out at some point. Is that the Kira family crest on your earring? I don't know. Right. Yeah. I'm going down your path there. Fair, terrified. Okay. Thank you. A little transition, a little time transition. And now the women are all dressed up in very, you know, beautiful gowns and dresses. Baso's giving a speech where he says your lives have ended. Your old lives are done. So they don't have a choice. Like, Basically, they either do this or they're dead. And Dukot arrives.

He gives a big speech about how he'll show that with his actions that Cardassians can be kind. They're not like you think. We're not all bad guys. And then he sees Maru's scar and feels horrible about it. He gets a regenerator, heals her scar quickly. And clearly, Dukot is attracted to her. He's very drawn to her and intrigued with her. And she's intrigued by his kindness in this scene.

It's a perfect example of grooming. It's so well-written. Great point. Okay, so a little time passes after this, and there's a party going on. We kind of pan across the room to see these women just being manhandled and very uncomfortable most of them with it. But Kira and Maru are off in a corner. They're wallflowers off to the side. They're trying to stay out of the action.

not comfortable with us at all. And then Maru is taken by a Kardashian. Kira's taken too. And the Legget tells Kira to pour him some Knaar. He's very charming but pushy. It's what you were talking about. Like that balance of entitlement, but also he had some authenticity, I guess,

about the way he was doing it. Some gravitas, basically. He also took my banter very well. Yeah. Which he could have slapped me across the face. And he was like, okay, I like her. She's a live wire. And that, too, she's...

Sessy. Yeah, yeah. It was charming. Yeah. For a split second when he first came on screen, I thought, oh my gosh, is this the younger version of the same actor who played her father,

her Cadassian father in that earlier episode? You know what I'm saying? Oh, he did look. They do look in the... And their voices... Not just similar. ...are similar, too. That would really be messing with Kira.

Oh, my God. It's all a mess. Yes. And at that point, wow. I was like, Iris, Stephen Bear, you are a mastermind. You've put him in here now. Well, except for that he's passed away already, right? Right.

He's already, no, at this point, it's the past. So he's still alive. Oh, that's right. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So it could have been him. Yeah. Yes, I get you. Well, we do see DuCott enter the room and Maru is being just assaulted by a man off to

the side. He's kissing her neck. She's clearly trying to resist. And Dukot goes over and pulls the Cardassian off and has Baso take her to her quarters for some privacy so she can relax. He's very protective of her. And then we cut back to the Leggett and Kira. And he knows exactly what Dukot's going to say next, which is, what does he say? He says, the legate says, I only hope you won't condemn us all for the boorish behavior of one man.

and then Duquette says exactly that. Which is such a shortcut for the audience to understand that this is grooming and only grooming. That, you know, no, no, he isn't the charming Cardassian he pretends to be. This is so manipulative and calculated, yeah. I mean, it would take scenes and scenes to show that. The legate's saying that to me, you get it right away. Yeah, good point. very good point. And to mess with

Kira and then not further, if the person that was pulled off of her mother, smooching on her, was Dennis Madeline? That would have been. Oh my God. My goodness. Dennis. Who was DeMars' father? DeMars. Right. Right.

Right. We're in a corridor. Time has passed and Kira's helping the drunk leg get back to his quarters. She gets to hers first, though. I did want to comment. playing drunk is hard. Kira was sober in the scene, but I had to play drunk a few times,

and it's tricky, because you don't want to be too big. I thought he did a great job, though, this actor. He really did. And you go, oh, there were Kardashians that were just guys. Yes, yeah. You know, he was just a guy. Yes. Well, he wants to spend the night with Kira in her quarters,

but she talks her way out of trouble in the scene. And he says, okay, well, tomorrow you'll be all mine to do with as I please. And he stumbles away. And Kira's response, I can hardly wait. That's great. And Kira walks into her quarters, expecting Maru, starts calling to Maru in the other room, but Maru's not there. It's Basso with a bunch of Maru's clothes. He says Maru's moving into Descartes quarters. Kira wants to see Maru. She doesn't understand this. Leads to a fight. But this time, Kira loses the fight, which doesn't happen often, but she loses this one. And I think you knock out one Cardassian, but the second one gets you and you hit the ground there.

You know what I can't remember is when they then throw me out and I roll. I looked very carefully to go, is that me or is that a stunt? And I couldn't figure it out. And I don't remember. It sure looks like a stunt woman, but it looked like my body. body. So I don't know. Did you have the same stunt double usually? Was it Pat? Pat. Pat Tillman. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Tallman. So we go to the promenade next. Kira's thrown through the gate. She's locked up. I love these shots that Jonathan did, the low angles and the kind of dramatic, a little dutched it. It was just clearly she's in a bad place and locked up. A little time passes. weeks maybe have passed. Kira's got her refugee clothes and a refugee hairdo again. She's lined up for some soup in the soup line. She talks with a bojorn named Halb, who says he has news about Maru. He says, I've got news about your good friend, right?

Another great actor. Yeah, he's wonderful. Just wonderful. So subtle. So perfect, I thought. Yeah. Yeah, he was great. But he's got news about Maru that she just got back from a vacation with Dukot. And he calls Murrow a collaborator. And Kira admits, so was I. I was a collaborator too. And he says, well, for a day, you were. It's not the same thing.

He starts to talk about his resistance activities, but she says, I don't want to join your resistance cell. And he says, I just want you to draw a map. And just when they're kind of getting into this conversation, Baso arrives to take Kira. to, we don't know where. He's just taking here. Yeah.

Yeah. Did anyone get, when they're looking at Hullb acting from certain angles, I saw Bob O'Reilly. I don't know if anyone caught that at all, but I was like, I can see that. What the,

yeah, just for a split second. His eyes, like one eye looked really dark blue because it wasn't lit, and then the other eye looked light blue. Oh, wow. Maybe it's another scene coming up. Okay.

But, yeah, he did remind me of a young Bob. Mary, your attention to detail. is incredible. Like a detective. I'm serious. I'm serious. That's wild that you would remember that.

That's very cool. Kira's walking down the corridor. Basso is taking her somewhere. She goes through this red security screen. So we establish that there is a kind of scanner that will come up later on. But she goes into Dukot's quarters and Meroo is there looking very refreshed, very polished, beautiful. And she's very happy to see Kira. and starts to try to talk with her.

She really wishes that Kira could understand all of this. But Dukot comes out here and says he's not a monster. He's giving flowers to Maru, the lilacs, her favorite. And then he leaves the ladies to talk. Kira's very angry in this scene, says Dukot is the enemy, period, black and white. And Muru says he's promised to take care of my family. Emily, and she doesn't have a choice, she says in this scene. To your point, Terry, she doesn't have a choice.

It's got to make the best of it. And kindness is powerful. Yes. You can manipulate people with kindness, absolutely. Yeah. That's not advice for people listening. Please do not manipulate people with kindness. It's not good.

No. Don't be like Ducat. Do not be like Ducod. Well, that's being charming, charming, right? Kindness is a deeper. I think he was kind. When you're kind to people. I think he was kind to her.

I think he probably was in love with her. I think he fell in love with. I think so too. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why she lasted so long too. Right. And why he told her, yeah, that's how I, I wanted to make sure you were mine.

So yes, I've done this before, but I love you. Yeah. Because that was my impression, definitely. Yeah, same. No, no, no, I know the timeline doesn't work. But then I started thinking, well, if they really did fall in love, that means Ziyal is your half-sister? Oh, my gosh. Wouldn't that be crazy?

My stepfather. Dukot is my stepfather. Ew. Ew. Oh, my gosh. Well, Kira's really mad in this scene because she says, you enjoy it. It's not just that he's taking care of your family. It's not just this other stuff.

It's that you are enjoying this. You love it. and you call her a collaborator in the scene and you storm out. This is a tough story for you, Nana. This story is we're getting into all the complexities. I just say that again. This is a deep one. We go to the promenade back to the ghetto.

Hald gives Kira a bomb that cannot be detective. Detected. I've got Detective Terry on my brain. It's stuck in your head. The bomb can't be detected by anyone except Detective Terry. Merrill. Private eye. Private eye.

Suddenly Dax is there. It's like, what? What's Taks doing here? Your eye color is a bit off. That's very suspicious to me. Does no one see her earring? Does no one see the Kira family crest etched on the side? How does she change everything about her except the earring?

That is so stupid. You really felt like a cold killer assassin in this scene, though. Yeah. I loved it. I loved your energy. You are focused and determined. I'm going to bomb. I don't care.

You say Maru deserves whatever she gets. She's a collaborator. I don't care. It was cold. I think Kira, you know, to do the things that she did, even to Kardashians that she killed, you have to compartmentalize your feelings. And I think that that's what she did to be able to go through these things and go, nope, I'm defaulting to what I know is right and wrong, to a black and white.

And she defaults to that and lets everything else be in another part of her brain in order to do these things. Yeah, and it protects you, right, to compartmentalize these things, mentally protecting herself. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. We're back in the corridor a little later. She's got the bomb earring. Kura's got the bomb earring on.

She tells Basso that she wants to apologize that she's on Maru's side now. And Basso says, you've made a very wise decision. And we cut off to the hallway where she's wearing the bomb earring. Can I say, too, the outfit you have on reminded, that reminded me of a World War II vibe. with the color, the green, and the very aline skirt and all of that. And the way your hair was up, there was just something about that whole thing that I agree. I agree.

To me. Yep. Period. Yeah. Yeah. It felt very 40s. And when I look back at my banter with the legate, that's very 40s movie too. Yes.

Yes. You pause at the red security screen, but you get through. We see that you're a little nervous. Are they going to detect this bomb on my ear? I held my breath. I know. I did. Very brave of you.

You're walking through the out of a store in the mall. Is it going to ring? There's another thing right here. We go inside Dukot's quarters where Kira apologizes. Maru is very, very happy. There's a nice hug between you two. Dukot agrees to let you, you know, come stay, be her. assistant, I guess. He also

gives Maru this transmission rod that she had asked about. And while Maru is putting the transmission, the transmission rod, the communications rod into the computer, Kira plants the bomb, literally plants it in a plant. It goes in

a plant. That's hilarious. I don't even figure that. Planting. Robbie, you're so. Okay, I'm not going to I know. She puts in a plant. And then as she's about to leave and let the bomb explode them, Maru and Ducotte, she catches this message from Taban, who it's a beautiful message where he says, thank you, Maru, for saving our lives. You've saved the children's lives.

They're doing well. They're getting stronger. And Kira's really moved by this. You can see, like, kind of the confusion and the empathy and the understanding and the perspective change in her. here listening to Tobon's speech. It breaks through the compartmentalization. It breaks through and

she can't do it. Yeah, Taban's able to give forgiveness to Maru. In abundance. In abundance. But also says if you can find happiness, find it. Whatever you can find.

He gives her permission, he gives her forgiveness and he gives her love. It's just all and all good stuff and Kira sees this and has really moved by it and moves so much that she knows this bomb takes three minutes it's going to go off or whatever it was it wasn't even three minutes I don't think

tells Dukot get out of here gets Maru out of there as they're running into the corridor boom the bomb goes off did you do that scene with the bomb or was that a stunt double that must have been stunt doubles I don't remember because that was a lot of

effects going off sparks and I would imagine that I was there because it often was that we were yeah you know with things like that so I would imagine I was but I disappear right away right yeah you go to the right outside the door yeah and because I when I rewatched I was paying attention because really when Duquette and Maru look up to look over you just see you just see Cardassians, two Kardashians laying down. We don't see you and suddenly the box opens. Yeah. And you're

back in Bejure. Yeah, back in the temple. In the orb room. I just have a sidebar as Terry's describing, you know, she watched the second time notice she went to the right. I was like, I bet Terry has a murder board for every episode.

Like a detective murder board. It just was like a string. String. It looks like. In the eye color, she's got blue eyes and brown eyes and there's yarn. Oh, that drives me insane. I really can't stand that. It's just like there's got to be someone.

And when they do with adults, it's like, give them contact lenses. I mean, I get why you're not giving a two-year-old contact lenses, but holy cow. Put it on your murder board, all these notes. Yeah. This is a tiny. Detective Terry. On the job. Tiny nitpick, tiny nitpick on this scene.

Yeah. When Descartes says, I'll be in my study. It seems like he's going to be further away because when you call him to come out when the bomb's there, he's literally right around the corner. He can hear on the entire message. He can even hear her sobbing over her. You know, he's too close. He needs to be a little bit further away, I felt. So that button.

Yeah. Just tiny bit. He's in his study. Yeah. Or the door was closed. Yeah, it wasn't. And here it could have bumped the thing to open it. Right.

But at any rate. It was right there. Happy nitpicking. Yeah. Thank you. Well, yes, we're back in the temple. The vision is over. The time travel's over.

Kira shuts the box. We cut into the captain's office. Kira's downloading with Cisco, what happened. Or maybe she's downloading with the emissary. I'm not sure who she's talking to here. Probably the emissary. I think it's the emissary. Yeah.

I speak very differently with the emissary than I do. Oh, yes. Cisco. Yes. You do. It's much more emotional and vulnerable. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Well, then this is definitely the emissary talk. And he seems different too. Yeah. He does. Yeah. Yeah. He says, he sees clearly the gray area that your mother was in here. That it's not black and white, but Kira still is struggling with it.

Cisco asks, you know, if you hate her so much, why did you save her life? Kira says, believe me, there's a part of me that wishes I hadn't. But the fact is, no matter what she did, she was still my mother. Complicated family dynamics. Yes. Can we all relate to that? Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm. 100%. Yes. Yes. Well, you know what? It really reminded me a lot of Theater Roosevelt's speech, and it was also in a Bray Brown book. And I'm daring greatly. On civic duty in the arena, France, April 23, 1910, it is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where

the doer of the deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly. who heirs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring great so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know the victory nor the defeat. And that's how I felt about Kara's mother, about Maru.

She is in the ring and she's fighting for her life. She's fighting for her family. And nobody who isn't in the ring with her has the right to judge her. And I was so happy that struck my heart and made me think of that quote. I think it's good for all of us. Not judge other people's fights. Yeah, it's really hard. And a lot of times, a lot of times when you put up your dukes, it's really about the

demons you're fighting that you're putting on someone else, right? And that's hard to look at. Interesting to think that Kira's judgment of her mother is her own issue. Yes. She's not facing that she's putting that judgment on her mother. Yeah. She's really judging herself, probably internally in some way. Yeah.

And so when we look in the mirror at ourselves, that's when it's, those are the most painful because you can't go back, you can't take it back, you can't do it over. Yeah. You have to face it and try to do better tomorrow. Yeah. But it's nobody else to tell you where you are in your arena. Agreed. Nana, do you have a theme or a lesson from this episode?

I think Terry's is brilliant. I would say that, yeah, on a similar note, critical thinking that includes imagining things that you can't even imagine, putting yourself in someone else's situation for a moment and asking yourself, what would I do? Asking yourself three times, what would I do the first time you're probably going to say what you would like to? have done. The second time, it may be closer to the truth and the third time, you may be vulnerable enough to go, this is the human decisions I may have made. So I think the theme is the gray of being human. Yeah, that's a lot like my lesson here. I wrote down, life is not as simple as black and white, good or bad. It's gray areas. That was the biggest thing to me. Yeah, I think it's true that this kind of dualistic thinking of right and wrong, good or bad,

this or that, most things aren't this or that. They're somewhere in a messy mess in the middle, you know. And that was Kira's biggest lesson in all the seven years because she's so desperately wanted black and white thinking. She just wanted it to be simple so that there was no guilt for her for what she had to do. And she couldn't have it that way. I also think forgiveness is a big part of this. I didn't write this down as a lesson, but I think this episode touches on, brings up this idea of forgiveness. Okay, here's my lesson from this episode. And it is from the speech from the message that Norese's father is given to his mother. And it is, I believe that even in the worst of times, we can still find moments of joy and kindness. If you can find that

kindness, hold on to it. Oh, beautiful. Right out of Victor Frankel. Yeah. Yes, yes. All right. Well, we have a Patreon poll winner for the theme slash lesson slash moral the episode as submitted by Martin D. and that is, you cannot truly judge someone's choices until you understand the impossible circumstances they faced. Very well said. Yeah. And honorable mention, theme moral is submitted by Lori Ulster. Nothing is black and white, even the things you think you're sure of.

All right. We want to say a big, huge thank you to Nana Visitor for joining us for this episode. We always are so honored to have you, and we love having you. Especially this episode. This was a really special episode. Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much.

So much love. Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for a little bit more Nana and your bonus material. For everyone else, join us next time. And we will be recapping and discussing the episode Inquisition. And that will be with Monsieur Amen Shimaman. So please join us for that one for everyone else. We'll see you next time.