The Derivative - What the hell is going on in logistics and is there any relief in sight? with Woodson Dunavant

Episode Date: November 17, 2022

This week on the Derivative we're doing it a little differently sharing our platforms with RCM's Agriculture podcast, The Hedged Edge. The Hedged Edge is back online with a guest who could be it's podcast's most important guest of all time. At a time when inflation is running rampant through the world economy, drought conditions are drying up our rivers, and the global supply of grain is scarce. We are tasked with the question, "what the hell is going on in logistics, and is there any relief in sight?"     To help address these questions and more, Jeff Eizenberg is joined today by a man that needs no introduction to most in the physical commodity sector – Woodson Dunavant with the Dunavant Logistics company based in Memphis, TN. Quick Links from the episode: For more information visit Dunavant.com, follow @Dunavant_LTL on Twitter, and check out their LinkedIn & Facebook. Direct questions for Woodson: [e-mail] Subscribe to The Hedged Edge on your preferred platform, and follow them on Twitter @ag_rcm, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Don't forget to subscribe to The Derivative, and follow us on Twitter at @rcmAlts and our host Jeff at @AttainCap2, or LinkedIn , and Facebook, and sign-up for our blog digest. Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as legal, business, or tax advice. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of RCM Alternatives, their affiliates, or companies featured. Due to industry regulations, participants on this podcast are instructed not to make specific trade recommendations, nor reference past or potential profits. And listeners are reminded that managed futures, commodity trading, and other alternative investments are complex and carry a risk of substantial losses. As such, they are not suitable for all investors. For more information, visit www.rcmalternatives.com/disclaimer

Welcome to the Derivative by RCM Alternatives, where we dive into what makes alternative investments go, analyze the strategies of unique hedge fund managers, and chat with interesting guests from across the investment world. Okay, we get a live video intro today. Hope you enjoy that with my virtual Chicago background here. It is not nearly that pleasant outside. It's cold and snowy. But happy homemade bread day, everyone.

Bake up some bread today and a week from now you can use it for stuffing the turkey. I love a good stuffing, but it's got to be crunchy. Finished off in the oven with some crisp, not that mushy kind. Don't like that. We've been in our own personal fast market over here at The Derivative the past few weeks with guest cancellations, guest sicknesses. One potential guest is shutting down

their commodity program and running the desk at an Asian bank. You wouldn't believe the stuff we got going on right here. Crazy enough, trying to keep up with the FTX saga. Our beloved trend followers seeing their worst month of the year not to mention all this pod scheduling so bear with us we'll be off next week for that turkey and stuffing but we're still going to try and get Wayne Himmelsine on to close out the season likely the first week of December on to this episode doing something unique this

week as I've mentioned here on the pod before, RCM has an ag services group where they help producers, that means farmers, hedge their crops. They help importers get financing and do hedging. They help hedgers get better execution, better pricing on their swaps, etc., etc., etc. Lots going on over there. And never more important than the current environment where commodity prices spiked this year, then came back down. Lots of volatility in commodity prices. But we're still having big logistics issues, the main source of which in the U.S. recently has been on the Mississippi River. So that same ag group has a podcast, The Hedged Edge,

hosted by Jeff Eisenberg, who runs the ag group and who I've worked with for more than 20 years. So this week, he's got Woodson Dunavant on the Memphis-based Dunavant Company who heads up their logistics unit among other things. So thought this would be a good chance to highlight what's going on over at the Hedged Edge and give everyone a listen to what's going on in agriculture and logistics. We'll jump right into the other Jeff and Woodson talking just how crazy it is that we ship cotton to Asia just to get turned into a shirt that gets put on a container that comes right back here to the US. Send it. So with all those purchases and sales, then comes the logistics portion, correct?

That's right. That's exactly right. So it's still cheaper for the retailers kind of looking from field to fabric here for us to ship a bail from, say, Mississippi to Shanghai and then bring that shirt back here to Memphis. It's still cheaper to do that than it would be to do it here in the U.S., which is really, I mean, yeah, you can't, it blows your mind really that that's the way it is, but that's the way it is. I'm going to ask a question about that. So it's so interesting to me the way you describe it like that, is that you get the bail here, you ship it over and it comes back. And

then is it just because you have this, your network of the supply chain there is so strong that you're able to, from economies of scale, have enough flow that you have enough movement between the vessels that you're able to then, you know, take it over. You don't have to sit on a container for, you know, six weeks for it to manufacture and come back, but you have enough flow where there's always a container ready to come back the other way. Yeah. I mean, that's Jeff, that's really deep. And I really wish I could tell you that yes, we were involved from the field in the U.S. all the way to the manufacturer and then back here to the U.S. There's so many different segments of that. Donovan is not involved in that entire supply chain. While that would be really cool if we were, it's just there's so many different pieces to make that puzzle all come together.

We don't need to get too in the weeds, but I'm just curious if you guys had that. We're involved with our customers with helping them move it from the field to the overseas port. And then we sort of lose track of it there. And then on our import side, we're responsible from once the goods hit the port in Asia to deliver them here to the United States to the distribution facility. Got it facility. There is a dark area there, a gray area that we are not involved at all. Leave that to somebody on their side that can speak the language and manage that process. Correct. That's right. We did all the cotton trading, you know, the mid 2000s come along, you know, 2007, 2008. I'm sure some of your readers will remember those days and how crazy things were when the spec and hedge funds got really involved in commodities. They thought they needed a commodity bucket in addition to

their bond bucket and their equity bucket. And that really changed things from us where we're trying to keep a hedged book against our long physicals. The market would run up, we'd have short futures against our physicals. And then, you know, in order to hold those positions, we're having to send money margin to keep those positions. And it just got it just got too much for my dad and our family, whereby our net worth was on the line. And it just became really uncomfortable from a family standpoint, from a financial standpoint, everything. And so he had the foresight to look at possibly marketing our cotton division

to sell it. We had multiple suitors. At the end of the day, Louis Dreyfus Corporation was the one that came in and bought all of our cotton trading people and divisions around the world. So we had things that they did not have in Central Africa, in Brazil, in Australia. And so it really helps them put together, you know, the full global portfolio footprint that they needed to go to the next level. So no surprise today, they are the largest of, you know, they're right there. That's correct. And we were in Donovan, Donovan was right there with them.

We were doing between four and 6 million bales a year globally, you know, between one and two billion dollars of revenue. We were spending, you know, upwards of two hundred fifty million dollars a year in logistics. And so that's when the whole logistics thing for us sort of sort of tipped itself off. And when we were when we made that sale to them, sale to them, they did not want any of our people that were doing the logistics. So we kept those people and we've built this 3PL, which we will go into more detail about. That's great. So then how many people that are on the team today across the globe? Because I know you have global operations. Yeah, it's really hard to say, to put a number, a finger on an exact amount of people. We've got a lot of contractors. We've got agents. So it's a real hard number to put it. I mean,

it's north of 200, but it could balloon up to if you include contractors and agents and all that. I mean, it's a really big number. Sure. Not to mention all the people that are involved in, you know, running the rail or, you know, trucking, et cetera. You can put everyone together in the thousands. So that makes, it makes good sense. Yep. Okay. Well, that's, that's a, that's a one heck of a ride for you. You're in the family and obviously to get to where you guys are here today.

Now, it would then seem that natural that you're also still heavily involved in cotton. We are. We do freight forwarding for a lot of our old cotton competition. We do a lot of trucking and logistics for them. The whole bucket of Dunneville logistics, it's probably 10 or 15% of what we do. So it's not as big as I would like it, but it's still, it's a core business for us. And, you know, we do everything, like I just said, from documentation to trucking to ocean freight in some cases. So yeah, cotton's in our blood and we can't get it out of our blood,

nor do we really want to. So the side that we're in now, we don't have any risk for cotton and being able to be in the business without risk is a good thing. I agree with that. You know, we're all in that business, and it can be heart palpitating. So, okay, 15% is cotton. What other products are you involved in? Is it agriculture, or if it can be shipped, you're interested? If it can be moved in a container, Jeff, we're, we're going to be involved in it. So, you know, we've done everything from peanuts to soybeans, to corn, to rice, tobacco, alfalfa, you know, just anything agriculture, you know, we'd like to, for someone

to come to us with a challenge of, you know, we're only able to get 20 tons in a container. Well, let's bring it to a major city or a big place where there's heavyweight, transload it, and we'll get 25 tons in the container. So for every five moves, you're getting a free container. So for every four. So yeah, those are the types of things we like to look at with our customers. How can we do things different? How can we maximize our payload? How can we be a solution to something that they need help with? That's how we grow our businesses. People come to you've been able to continue to grow. So you're you're based in Memphis. Would that also then insinuate that a majority of the operations and movements starts and ends there on the river? Or are you also focused on the ports and, you know, some of the international terminals as well? Yep. So Memphis is home, obviously. Memphis is where our headquarters is. Memphis is near and dear to our heart. Memphis is great. We love Memphis. We see the growth. We're very bullish on Memphis. As you know, we've got all five

major railroads here, which only Chicago has that going for them we've got the largest freight airport with fedex moving through here we've got a 40 corridor with trucks moving you know east to west connecting the east to west coast uh 55s connecting uh uh mexico with canada um so we've got, you know, road, rail, runway, you know, it's all here. And so we're very bullish on that. But to your question, no, Donovan's moving product in and out of every major rail hub in the United States in the Gulf, Houston and Dallas, Memphis, Savannah, Charleston, Norfolk, Baltimore, Wilmington, and then inland where Nashville and Memphis and Atlanta and as I said, Dallas. So we're really focused in the southeast and in the Gulf, but we're also moving product in and out of the PNW in the Northeast as well and in Southern Florida. So there's no real, you know, we're spread all across. So we're lucky in that regard.

That's great. And I guess it really kind of circles back to, like I said at the beginning, you're one of the most important people in the world to be talking to you right now. You're so spread out that you are touching so many different pieces of the overall logistics game plan or footprint, let's call it that. And we all have been hearing about all the problems that are out there. And I guess before we just say today, this is the problem today. It seems as if this, the backups and the issues and the increasing costs and everything kicked off with COVID, you know, with the COVID pandemic, and then it's just really never cleared the system. And then now we have new problems, right? We've got drought and other conditions. Is it fair to say that that was the kickoff, the genesis? And is that portion of it, that portion worked itself through and we're now facing other problems?

Where are we at? Yeah, I mean, COVID changed the supply chain. Things are not going to go back to the way they were pre-COVID, post-COVID, COVID, whatever. I mean, it's not going back to the way it was. That's crystal clear. The question is, what is it going to do in the future? Because it's going to change again. Rates went through the roof. Now they're crashing back down. Freight rates. Freight rates. Yes. Interest rates are going straight up yeah interest rates going up freight rates going down I mean we're we're in a freight recession right now you know importers

have you know they couldn't get their hands on enough inventory well now they've got too much inventory and they can't move it the consumer's not buying as much as he was you know they all got scared last year. A lot of the retailers, they couldn't get their product in for Christmas time. So they brought it in super early this year. And so, you know, they are a chock-a-block full. These warehouses, I mean, I was reading this morning, Jeff, historically, warehouse levels are about call it 10% in terms of,

in terms of the vacancy rate. And right now you're at like, I want to say like around 3% and it's literally around 10% for the last decade. And so at 3% now it's a good time to be in the warehouse business now. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, all that's going to change, you know, everybody's going to go out and get their warehouse space and then demand's going to go up, you know, and then things will change. But as it stands right now, being in the warehouse business is a very good business to be in. Yeah. And then you mentioned when we talked a couple of weeks ago,

something, you know, kind of speaks to that. You said Amazon did their, their Black Friday, Black Friday, a week, a month early, which forced even more warehousing to be a space to be taken up. Is that right? That's right. That's right. So right. It's not just Amazon. It's all these retail guys. They're all in the same boat together. With interest rates doing what they're doing,

geopolitical unrest in Ukraine and in that area, diesel costs through the roof has really got me concerned, both in North Europe and in here in the United States. I mean, there's just a lot of uncertainty right now. And, you know, we're just going to continue to service our customers and do what we know to do and just sit back and watch, you know, some of those other things that are outside of our control,

but at the end of the day affect me, my business, your business, my pocketbook, your pocketbook. So, you know, a lot going on right now. I'm obviously with the China and Taiwan deal. I mean, there's a lot to be keeping our eye on right now. Right. And there was a period in time when, you know, we see us all the pictures on the news of, you know, 500 or 1000 boats back to the L.A. port. And, you know, as a lot of that issue cleared, the port issues that cleared up. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it's cleared, but it is it is working itself out. The issue now is in Savannah, I think they've got

20 or 30 vessels awaiting birth there. So you know, once everybody saw everything in LA, they were like, Alright, let's switch everything to the East Coast into the Gulf. And so you're having some residual stuff there on the East Coast. But you you know it that that'll work itself out especially with demand uh dropping right now i mean a lot of our import clients have you know where they were doing call it 30 to 50 containers a week of product you know they're less than 10 an hour and that that's that's material um you know that that's a massive drop in volume. The ocean carriers are pulling service out of the market to try to stabilize rates. So where they had four vessels that were on a string from Shanghai to L.A., well, maybe they're only doing two now. So, you know, that's what they do in order to get their rates back up as they pull capacity out of the market but sounds like

the airline industry i think i uh paid uh like eight hundred dollars a flight to dallas a couple weeks ago like really like two years ago you were giving me a flight for a hundred and twenty dollars we we looked at going out west for spring break and um i i can't even tell you what what what it's going to cost to fly a family of five from memphis to utah i mean yeah well we're doing it we're going to park city and uh thankfully i have a friend who has a uh place to stay but man uh aside from that i think i'm going yeah it's it's it's crazy so um so that's what the that's what the ocean liners do as well to to to take capacity out of the market in order to stabilize rates. So, you know, they've done quite the ocean carrier community has done quite, quite well in the last couple of years.

So we shall see, you know, we should see how they prevail going forward. But I would think they're going to be OK. OK, well, circling back to commodity markets here, I'm curious to the back to the river. I'm guessing I believe something like 60 percent of all U.S. exports run through the Mississippi. And you were describing this one lane traffic versus multi-lane um you know as i start to think about what what this is going to mean um have you seen a shift where people are uh your customers are starting to you know hire rail and a truck and you know incur those additional costs associated with having to uh move off the river or are you or are you or are people like, or are people, like you said, farmers just stuffing their bins full and the rest of the world has to wait?

Yeah, I think that's what you're going to see. I mean, look with demand slowing down, that's a good thing right now, which you would never say that demand's a good, demand slowing down is a good thing from a farmer's perspective. But to answer your question, I mean, we're not seeing the grains go from a barge to the road, for example. You're not seeing, because at the end of the day, most of those sales are bulk sales. So the product has got to move in bulk, and it's not going to be able,

you're not going to be able to move it to Memphis. And then I guess you could bulk rail it and transload it at a port. But if you're not already doing that, in order to set something like that up, I mean, your costs are going to go through the roof. And so yeah, I think it's just kind of a sit back and wait. Right now do what they can try to fulfill the contracts that they can. And just just do their best. I mean, look with the dollar as strong as it is, you know, that's hurting them as well. So, you know, the farmers are going to be okay, but, you know, they're just going to go through a rough patch. And unfortunately,

right now, from a timing standpoint, you know, all the crops are coming off right now. And so, you know, they want to get them on the move and get them out and get ready for new crop. But that doesn't look like that's going to be the case this year. Well, you know, people can wait for clothes. They can't really wait for food. So at some point, the basis is going to have to shoot straight up or, you know, they're going to have to figure out other solutions to get it moving unless, of course, we do get some of the rain. And I guess, you know, you've been doing this long enough. 2012 was another drought year and I think I was reading that the river was,

you know, significantly low at that point. What was your experience in that timeframe and how long did it take before you started seeing things kind of working more normal again, not until March or April or May that this potentially even subsides? Yeah, I mean, it just depends on weather, really. But yeah, I think spring is what you're looking at. Once you get the snow melt off from the Midwest, that's what typically always gives the river its strength and its lust is that snow melt runoff from north to here. And then that obviously takes it all the way down to New Orleans. So yeah, I think it'll be spring at the earliest. So, you know, hopefully we can get,

you know, enough rain and wet weather around here to be able to come back up a little bit, but it's not going to be able to go back up to where it needs to be until, until the spring. Right. So yeah, we'll wait, wait and see on that front. Let's shift over here a little bit. You've, you mentioned the work and expansion of the, of the, of the company over the years. And you know, I was reading an article that you guys posted maybe earlier this year on the growth in Mexico. Could you just maybe talk to us a little bit about what you're seeing there?

Is it, you know, is it, what's, what problem are you solving by expanding into Mexico? Well, what problem are we solving? So we're helping solve our customers' problems. That's what we do. And, you know, we saw an opportunity with things in Asia slowing down of people and things moving, you know, not reshoring to America, but nearshoring to America. And, you know, that's where Mexico comes in. I mean, I've talked to multiple people, you know, over the past few months and even years that, you know, maybe the

quality of the product produced in Mexico doesn't meet what it is in China, but they are somewhat competitive from a labor standpoint. So if we can get that quality up, then I think you would see a massive move to manufacturing in Mexico. So we saw an opportunity. We're at, Dunavant has operations at every border crossing from Laredo all the way to Tijuana and everywhere in between. So we're moving product both in and out via truck and rail. We have cross docking, we have warehousing. So, you know, we, we, we've got a gentleman that runs that operation for us who you, I still need to introduce you to and your team, because I think y'all would be a benefit to hear from him and what his capabilities are and how, you know, he can help you and some of your customers out with what he's

doing, even intra Mexico not, not to mention the border. So we're very bullish on Mexico and the U.S. and where that partnership is going to go from here. And so we... Going both ways, right? You've got grains and other goods going into Mexico. And then as you've just described a little bit ago, how if there's a chance for us to match the labor and quality, then if we move some of our textile, like not us, but if some of I've heard that China is buying up some textile factories and whatnot in Mexico, if they could replicate the work there, but just be closer to the US that then now you're going the other way, right? You're bringing it back in. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And, um, you know, it's just, it's been a great venture for us. And, um, you know, the more and more we look at it, the more and more we like it,

and the more bullish we are on it. So, um, yeah, I'm very, very happy with where we're going there for sure. I was talking with a group today and he was talking to me about the Mexican ports and how the terminals are largely back over there and only the largest vessels coming in. Has that been your experience as well, that these port contracts are very long and extensive and just to break into that, it would be difficult. And ultimately, I guess that would mean that there's better chance for some of this rail and, and trucking solutions.

Yeah. I mean, you know, I think in Mexico is, as a lot of people know, I mean, you've got to know the right people in order to get things done. And, you know, while, while there might be longer contracts in place, I think that, you know, you can still get things done if you know the right people there. Right. So, you know, I think that's what the name of the game is there for sure. Is there are there any other countries or regions that you're you're focusing on other other than than the Mexico opportunity? And obviously you're doing things in Asia, but yeah, I mean, you coming on, you new coming on? We're pretty bullish on Vietnam.

We've got a contingent going over there, I think, in the next three weeks or so to go check things out. They suffer from a lack of land and people, but everything that they've done is, is very impressive, uh, from a port infrastructure standpoint, from a manufacturing standpoint, from a labor standpoint. I mean, uh, you know, you've got invest foreign investment from all over the world going into Vietnam right now. And, um, you know, we're, we're quite bullish on, on the goings on there. And so much so as, uh, like I said, we're sending, sending, said, we're sending three executives over there in the

next few weeks to go investigate further, for sure. Are you taking a translator? And are you on this contingent? So luckily, we don't really need translators. We have agents and people that we work with over there that are able to do that for us. So yeah, years and years and years ago, when we travel over there, you'd have to, you know, you'd have to have a translator, whether it was in China or Vietnam or wherever in Asia you were going. Nowadays, you know, with as many agents in the network that we have, we're able to go over there and get around. And, you know, to be completely honest, English will get you a lot further than you think, especially in Asia.

It really will. Are you heading on this trip? I'm not, unfortunately. I wish I would. I wish I was. Vietnam is one of my top countries in the world that I've ever visited, both from a food standpoint, from a people standpoint, from manufacturing. I love, love Vietnam.

It's awesome. Vietnam, Thailand, and South Africa are the top three for me, for sure. That sounds good. So, you know, this has been a, it's been a great conversation. My takeaway from what you're saying here is that we all need to think differently in the new environment moving forward. It's going to take strategic partnerships. It's going to take innovation from different companies like yourselves to come up with better solutions to move products and goods and achieve. Really, at the end of the day, our goal of our company and the people,

our clients we work with is to help them maximize their margins. And so it sounds like you're very much aligned with that perspective. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you get, if you get, if you're comfortable in your supply chain right now, watch out because there's a change coming. And you know, like I said, we're here to provide solutions when customers have problems or they want to look outside the box. That's who we are and that's what we want to help them do. And, you know, it's a new normal that we're in. You know, it may only last another three to six months and then we could be hair on fire with something else.

I mean, who knows? That will happen because, you know, I wish I could tell you that, you know, things will go back to the way they were. But as we all know, once you have a cataclysmic shift in supply chain, which we have had pre-COVID to COVID to now, it's a new way of doing business and um yeah so it's it's fascinating the one thing that we didn't touch on uh was i think you wanted real quick on the rail issue oh yeah please yeah what what's the story are they is it congress is the only one that could solve this or what's going on uh so they did they originally they had said the 19th of November. They just extended it to December 4th. So they're going to have another couple of three weeks of negotiation, which I view is a very positive development.

At the end of the day, Congress and or the president are going to have to step in because if you were to have that happen, I mean, you talk about you think that the L that the LA Long Beach strike was a big deal. You talk about stoking inflation. I mean, it would be catastrophic if we had a major rail strike. I mean, you know, 40% of all goods in terms of weight is moving on the rail. And if you were to stop that, I mean, you can't, from a food, from a retail, from, I mean, you just goes on down the list. I mean, it would be, I can't imagine that the government would allow that to happen though. They will step in at the 11th hour if it gets to that point and put their

foot down. They have to. Yeah. I mean, everything with the just-in-time production that we have here and consumption in the United States, even a day or two delay, what we've seen with weather conditions or something backs things up and it takes months for it to work through. So if you had weeks or months off, oh my goodness, you're absolutely right. I mean, to your point, even, even five days,

like something like that would set us back by, you know, three or four months. I mean, it just, it'd be crazy. So I do not think that that will happen. So you can come back and poke me when they do strike and then everything shuts down. What's in set. It was not going to happen. Place your bets. Yeah. We get it. I appreciate that insight

because, yeah, you're at the pulse of it. I mean, I assume that the people in the rail industry don't want it to happen either, but they also want to be paid fairly and get proper compensation. That's right.

That's right. You can't fault them for sure. Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, no, this has been extremely good and extremely helpful beneficial to, I think everyone listening and you know, welcome, welcome. You obviously share it yourself. I always have one final fun question for everybody. And it's what is your favorite extreme sport that you either participate in

or would participate in? If you maybe were back in your, you had a 20 year old body oh lord and mercy extreme sport yeah yeah i mean you talk duck hunting that's kind of that kind of counts okay well if that counts then i will uh you know it's an extreme sport in some cases for sure yeah uh and i and i really enjoy it. So yeah, I mean, that would be, that would be it for me for sure. I was thinking more like MMA or boxing. Oh yeah. Well, you could do that too. I mean, I really miss heavyweight boxing and, you know, back in our day with, with, with, with Tyson and Lewis, but even before that, I mean, you know, we would block an entire night out, you know, to, to,

to get ready for the boxing match. And I mean, it's, it feels like it's gone. Like it's MMA is just totally taken it over. But I mean, I feel like there's still a space for good heavyweight boxing and it just, it's gone. It feels, I just, I really miss that. Maybe Tyson was the pioneer of it because when he bit Holyfield's ear, nowadays MMA, if you bit somebody's ear, they might be like, eh, that's okay. That's right. That's right. There's no doubt. There's no doubt. So pretty good. What's the best way to get ahold of you if people had to want to connect? Yeah. So reach out to me. My email address is very simple. Woodson.Dunavant at Dunavant.com. Email me.

You can give me a call and I'm happy to talk through anything with anybody. Importers, exporters, domestic, domestic folks here in the U.S., anything cross border. If I don't know the answer, I'll put you in touch with somebody here that does. We've got experts all over the place, Donovan, and I'd be happy to put you in touch with whomever you need to talk to. So we're really excited with our growth and where we're going. And, you know, we're just, we're in a really good place right now. So Jeff, I appreciate you doing this and I've enjoyed getting to know you over the past few weeks. And hopefully this won't be

the last time I talk to you. Yeah, we'll do it again. We'll check back in when that river fills back up. All right. Yeah, sounds good, Jeff. Appreciate it. Thanks so much, Switzer.

Appreciate the time. Yep. Take care. Thank you. You've been listening to The Derivative. Links from this episode will be in the episode description of this channel. Follow us on Twitter at RCM Alts and visit our website to read our blog or subscribe to our newsletter at rcmalts.com.

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