The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Ann Summers CEO: The Heartbreaking Story Of One Of Britain’s Richest Women: Jacqueline Gold CBE

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Jacqueline Gold has been the CEO of AnnSummers for over thirty years, and we think after listening to this you’ll understand why she’s an inspiration to people everywhere. Taking over AnnSummers in 1987, she is now one of the richest people in the UK, and is worth over £400 million. At the beginning of her CEO journey, no one saw what she saw, that women might be interested in sex. Taking over a company run by and for men, AnnSummers and the sex industry was transformed by empowering a new audience, women. Female empowerment remains at the heart of everything she does. Jacqueline has had to overcome a lot of demons and obstacles in her life, but the attitude she’s employed to tackle these is nothing short of incredible. Jacqueline is an example of the power of approaching life with optimism and generosity, no matter what it throws at you. Follow Jacqueline: Twitter - https://twitter.com/Jacqueline_Gold Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jacquelinegoldcbe Donate to Breast Cancer Now, a charity Jacqueline is an ambassador of - https://secure.breastcancernow.org/appeal/donate Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I know what I've done has been culture changing. And I'm super proud of that. All hell would kick loose if that happened today. I was poisoned by my nanny, I've had a bullet through the post. It was so important to me not to feel like a victim. You know anybody that's listening will not know the crusade that I've been on. I don't really know what to say honestly, I feel speechless. Yeah, gosh it is hard. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. When I spoke to the consultant, he said, it's not curable, but it is treatable. Jacqueline Gold. She is one of the most successful businesswomen in Europe. She's also one of the wealthiest women in the UK. And she's certainly one of the most inspiring people I have ever, ever met. Just remarkable.

But her road to success is one of the most devastatingly, misfortunate, tragic, heartbreaking roads I think we've ever heard traveled on this podcast. Imagine me speechless. This podcast made me speechless, not once, not twice, but over and over again. She is and has been the CEO of Ann Summers for decades, a company that if you don't know, is known for popularizing sex toys, dismantling the unhealthy archaic stigmas around sex, and starting a crusade to make sex a more widely accepted part of all of our lives. But her story twists, and it turns. The lessons, the courage, the resilience, the heartbreak, the pain. This should be a movie. You just couldn't make it up. Jacqueline, thank you for your honesty, thank you for your courage and thank you for the inspiration. I know that it will stay with me for a lifetime.

Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you However, I've noticed that in my podcast, I've continued to start in a very similar place. And it's I can't get away from it. And the place that I always tend to start is about the person that sat in front of me's early years, and how those early years have shaped them. And as I was reading about your story, I actually read that you'd said that. I read that you'd said your early adversity heavily shaped who you are today and who you became and influenced the career journey you took. So I have to start there. And I feel like I always start there, but can you tell

me about that early adversity that you're talking about? Yes, I can. I had a really unconventional and challenging childhood. My parents split up when I was 12. My sister was a lot younger than me. She was seven years younger than me. So it didn't impact her in the same way as it impacted me. I found it was quite traumatic. I actually stayed down a year at school because of the impact it had on me. And at the same time, my mother moved in with her boyfriend who sexually abused me between the age of 12 and 15. And that combined with a mother who was overprotective, wouldn't let me or my sister just do anything and play in the normal way. We weren't allowed to go to sleepovers or parties or anything like that. But then when it came to this abuse, which I believe she knew about, you know, we were

left in the most vulnerable situations. You know, she was quite a complicated woman and, you know, she was quite a complicated woman and, you know, we were in a pretty tough situation. So for me, later in life, in fact, I say later in life, I probably was about 15, you know, finding financial independence was really important to me because that was my escape it's hard to it's hard to imagine a parent knowing about about that especially as you say one that was so risk adverse was so keen to keep you in the house to not let you outside because you might fall into a dangerous situation but would turn a blind eye to that I mean it you know I've tried to rationalize this myself numerous times because she was she was quite ill in her later years so I didn't challenge her I just felt she was and even in her earlier years I just felt

I always felt she was very vulnerable herself um you know just she she once said to me if I could live in the middle of a field with no one around me I'd be happy so she herself wanted to be protected in one sense. You know, she wouldn't even let my sister and I play in the front garden in case we were kidnapped. I mean, it was, you know, totally irrational. And yet, stayed with a man. You know, I remember overhearing her in a phone conversation with her sister after he'd returned after a year's break. And I remember hearing her say, yes, I know he's a bastard, but, you know, I don't want to be on my

own. It was just a toxic, you know, a have forgiven her but I feel very sad for for her and and and the life that she lived did she ever admit to knowing that her partner was abusing you no did you ever ask her I didn't ask her but there were many occasions when I called out for help um and a couple of occasions that she either witnessed or overheard me telling someone you know I was told off for telling lies even my aunt has later told me that she saw something going on. She told my mum about it, who played it down. So there were lots of situations where it was clear to me that she would have known. Do you know much about her upbringing and what the early sort of experiences that shaped her no i mean i i think that i mean my grandmother was lovely um my grandfather was an authoritarian um you know her sister grew up you know perfectly well but she she was very was was very insecure beautiful woman you know, perfectly well, but she, she was very, was, was very insecure, beautiful woman,

you know, very elegant, but you're just scared of life. And your younger sister, you've got a younger sister. I have. Yeah. She's seven years younger than me. Fantastic business woman, fantastic businesswoman great people person and somebody who really you know I admire her so much Vanessa we have a great relationship and she's funny and engaging and yeah I mean she's my best friend you grew up in the same household with her but you turn out to be very different people and you're only a couple of years apart because you talked there about at the very start about how just being a couple of years apart in those earliest experiences even if you're in the same household can create two completely

different people because they both experienced very very different things because of age and I really resonated with that because like even in my, in my childhood, my family became on the verge of bankruptcy when I was old enough to know what was going on, but my older brothers and sisters, and also when I was probably most influential, sort of easily influenced, like adversity showed up in my childhood when I was, when I was at like the ripest of ages. And so I'm very, very different from my brothers and sisters. And I kind of felt that from what you said there, the difference between you and Vanessa was just a couple of years off, but you experienced very different things in those early years.

Yes. I think Vanessa was also a bit more outspoken than me. And I think that, you know, as a child, maybe it was because of the way my mother was and the fact that, you know, for my first seven years of life, I was an only child and I don't know, but I was very shy. And I remember my mother used to to if we went on a beach holiday

she used to draw a circle in the sand put me in the middle and I wasn't allowed outside that circle um so I I never really had opportunities to make friends with other children and engage with adults. I was, I always felt quite lonely, bizarrely, whereas I think the second child always, you know, has it easier in my opinion, as I keep reminding my sister. And so, you know, she just was that much more confident, much more outspoken. So I don't think she was ever, you know, likely to be a target. I'm not saying she wasn't, but because we haven't spoken about it, but I think she's less likely to have been a target of abuse than I was. You've never spoken about it? Well, we have spoken about it, but I don't think she wants to,

she just doesn't want to talk about her experience. Fine. Which is, you know, I respect that. And, you know, everybody deals with adversity in different ways. And, you know, no matter how successful somebody is or privileged they may be you know it doesn't change you know the the challenges that we might experience along the way and everybody deals with them in different ways and for me it was so important to me not to feel like a victim. I didn't want to feel like a victim.

I hate the word. And that's not to say, you know, that other people handle it wrong. It's just for me. I just wanted to, I suppose, gain something from that bad experience, you know, whether it be proof that I can, you know, and actually I've experienced adversity throughout my life. I've been quite unfortunate, you know, in that way. You know, I lost my son when he was six years old. I was poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet through the post so I've had a number of challenges subsequently to the childhood experience but certainly just going back to that the childhood experience did I believe shape who I am today I think it drove me to want to go out and work hard

have that financial independence you know know, I was always curious, always talking to people, always looking for inspiration, I guess. And so much of, just thinking about that as well, so much of your work now, because I've, I've been through your story multiple times and looked at the way that you've made your decisions. And so much of it is, is centered on that idea of like empowerment and giving you know empowering people to be free from whatever their prisoner might be and sometimes prisoner is society sometimes it's social narratives whatever else but um i've really i deeply respect that about you because i read there was a day in your story where you

confronted your abuser and that ended up being a really pivotal moment. Could you tell me about that? Yeah. Gosh, it is hard going back and remembering those periods in time that you just want to park away. But I was 15. I'd been trying to plan how I was going to do this for some time. But obviously you lack the courage, you know, generate anger. I mean, he was the rouse that my mother used to have,

the coercive control that I witnessed made me want to make this as, you know, easy as possible. So in my childish way, I decided to tell him it wasn't fair on mum. So it was, I was trying to, I mean, is this something we do as, as girls? I think girls are brought up to be helpful and to please, people please. And this is, you know, I'm sure we're coming on to empowerment, but that was the, you know, that was the problem. I was brought up to be well behaved and to be a people pleaser and take John up a cup of tea and, you know, he likes you and this, all this type of... Stay inside your circle. Yeah. So for me, the best way to handle this was to help him not lose face or not feel bad or so. And he, he just, he didn't really say anything.

He just shrugged. And that was, it It was as easy as that and it never happened again. But I didn't, when I look back or if I was talking to my, you know, young self now, I didn't realise, you know, that I could stand up to him and that I was perhaps more powerful than I realised. I'm disappointed as an adult that I felt I had to approach it in the way I did. But then I forget that, you know, I am an adult. I was a child then and I was incredibly brave. You know, I could have done nothing. And I did, I was able to bring it to an end.

And, you know, whilst it's very difficult to forgive somebody that has put you through that much pain and trauma in your life, as a person, I have to take positives from anything negative that happens for me how I better my life how I go on to better things and you know I turn my focus to work and to ambition and being curious and learning different things and then just seeing this opportunity which actually turned out to be a great opportunity to empower women. You know, a lot of people are, well, gosh, you went through that abuse. Why would you go into something like this? But there was an opportunity there. And, you know, fast forward, I mean, I'm 61 now. I was 21 when I started. So fast forward 40 years. You look 25.

You say all the right things. Yeah, but you do. I'm fucking, you're 61. Fuck me. Mental. That's crazy. So I know what I've done has been culture changing. And I'm super proud of that.

I really am. And, you know, I've, you know, anybody that's listening that is 25 will not know the crusade that I've been on for the last 40 years. I mean, it's, you just wouldn't believe that you, you know, what you couldn't do and what you, what you couldn't do then, what you can do now and the changes and attitudes of you know the generations of today compared to the generations then I really want to talk about that because I know you had some really tumultuous experiences going on that crusade and I love I love um talking about shifting perceptions and also we've seen in our lifetime how quickly a

lot of perceptions have shifted around like equality and sexuality and gender. And the crusade that you, you know, led, I think, has been a really important one. Probably more important than a lot of people realize. I wanted to pick up on one thing you said about you being shy. You know, what you've gone on to do in your career and life and the crusade you've led is not one that would, you know, one would think would be led by a shy person. The person that I've met today doesn't seem to be a shy person necessarily to me. Seems to be one of conviction and confidence and belief. In hindsight, how did you go from being that shy person that was kind of coddled at an early age by a mother that was risk adverse,

drew a circle around you in the sand, didn't let you off the front garden, to being the person you are today. What is it that does that to somebody? Well, I think there's a few things around this because I don't think this is exclusive to me. I think a lot of women especially experience this. I think, well, first of all, I might be wrong, but I don't think we're born shy. I think it's our situational environment that creates that. And secondly, you can be shy, but still have fire in your belly,

which is what I had. You know, I had that ambition and that burning desire. And when you have that passion, you have to release it. You can't keep it inside just because you're shy. And I think there were many things that I did. You know, I remember in my very early twenties holding a conference, my first conference for my army of sales ambassadors, which I had about 500 in my first year. For Anne Summers. For Anne Summers, yes. And I held this conference at the Grand Hotel in Brighton. And I thought it was a great idea when I planned it because the whole idea is to engage with your teams and tell them about what you're doing and what your mission is and get everybody involved and on the journey.

And it was sort of, you know, a few hours before I was going on stage, I was thinking, oh my God, what am I doing? Because this was like horror to me. I had no experience and I was, you know, absolutely terrified. But if you're talking about something that you are passionate about, I think it changes it. It's not the same as doing a best man speech or, you know, getting up at school and doing your first speech. When you're talking about something that you really care about and that you live and breathe,

once you get out there and you've got that first sentence out the way, I do think it changes you. Yeah. And, you know, that's what it did for me. So I am a great believer that courage comes first and I've always had a lot of courage. And I think if you have the courage, eventually the confidence will come. Yeah. So yeah, from what you've said there, it's like the courage is creating, it's forcing you to create evidence for yourself. Yeah. It's forcing you to step outside your

comfort zone. And then we all know, anyone that's successful knows that when you do, great things happen. Yeah, and your comfort zone then expands, becomes a bit bigger and then you step another thing. Exactly. Interesting. So you said there about work

and you've always had that drive. When I was reading through your story again, I heard about one of the things your mum did allow you to do was to work. And so I was thinking about the relationship work you then had in your life from a very early stage. If work was the place that you were allowed to go to, to leave the home, then was it it an escape from home was it like a the place of freedom in your life it was so freedom I mean well first of all I can't tell you the countless times I'd asked her if I could go to a sleepover or a you know party or just things that normal kids do and it was always no um and there was another

sort of form of abuse was this they had her and her husband had this her new husband had this task task master approach to everything they did and it you know, there was no end to it. It's never like you could ever finish the tasks. And they were like digging the garden. They weren't like cleaning the kitchen. They were like digging the garden, bringing logs up. You know, it was very, it was manual labor for my sister as well. And it was like, these jobs will never get done. So we'll never be able to go out. It's a bit like Cinderella. As I'm telling the story, it sounds a bit like that. But she seemed to accept things that were traditional. So going to work was something, or getting a Saturday job is something that people do. So that was okay. So I couldn't get a bus into Bromley

to meet up with friends, but I could get a bus into Westrom to go and work at the spinning wheel as a waitress. So did you look forward to that? Absolutely. And of course, there weren't the rules then. You know, I was working at 14 years old. I worked in a bar at Biggin Hill Airfield I

did waitressing I worked in a hairdressing salon so um yeah that that was a release did you try and work all the time more and more hours over time and actually it compromised my schooling because I didn't really invest in my schooling. I just wanted to work. So I didn't go to college or university or anything that I expect my daughter will probably do now. Was there, and I do want to talk about some of these other points around empowerment, but was there any physical, and I don't think people think about this enough, but one of the things I've got increasingly fascinated by

was the connection between like psychological trauma and physical impacts. So on our physical health and how the two are somewhat interlinked. And was there any sort of physical symptoms or consequences of that psychological trauma that reared their head so interesting you say that because i have a stalker um and his mother many years ago many years ago and and the impact was tinnitus i had tinnitus really yeah and all through the because they they caught them it was went to trial they were

um found guilty i mean it's another i mean it's a crazy story it's a crazy story can you describe oh so tinnitus is when you get the ringing in the ears but actually i just had this marching it was a constant marching and it doesn't stop so when you go to bed you've got you know I had it oh did you so I know very few people will know what tinnitus is like unless you've had it because it sounds trivial if I say to you oh it's just like a ringing in the ears or whatever people go that's fine like I've been to a gig before my ears have run but you get like day two into it and I so I got tinnitus for all right so I go on google what's this ringing in my ears and why won't it stop and it must have been about six years ago seven years

ago and then you get into day three and you're losing your mind and I'm on these forums and people are like people commit suicide because of because of it and I kind of understood why yeah it was like a form of torture sleep you wake up it's constant you're eating lunch your ears are ringing and there's no end to it there's nothing you can do to stop it so fortunately you know talking about my experience with it one day I don't really know what happened but your sinuses are connected to your ears that's what I came to learn when I had tinnitus tinnitus and I think it must have been because my sinuses were blocked. Because on day nine of my ears ringing, it just stopped. And some people live with it for life.

Yeah. I mean, I was very fortunate. I think I had it for about three months and then it stopped. So I was very lucky. I mean, some people have to live with it. But mine was definitely brought on by that awful experience. And obviously the abuse I did. I mean, I had severe, sorry to be graphic, but severe constipation that I look back and I think was, you know, brought on by my own trying to be in control behavior just remembered as you said that I remember going to the doctors about it and blurting out to the doctor what was going on at home and the doctor

and I said and I'm really worried because I've got a younger sister and the doctor said to me um okay do you want me to get social services involved oh no no no no because you know as a child you think you're going to be in trouble you think you're going to be taken away from your mum and she's okay that was it oh fuck i mean i mean all hell would kick loose if that happened today i don't really know what to say honestly I feel speechless because you just can't imagine an adult hearing that these days and and posing the question to you about next steps just think that just seems unthinkable. Perceptions have changed a lot haven't they around sexual abuse and and and and also victim blaming which I think was was a was a really destructive

habit that society had which fueled the problem not having a safe environment to to speak thinking that you'd be blamed or you know absolutely i think there's still our challenges i don't think this is a problem that's gone away just because we're all more vocal I did a a project recently and just going off piece for a moment I was quite surprised about consent and I I did a workshop on consent and uh I think there's a lot that we don't know, we don't realise. And I did a piece around talking to university students and some girls go to university expecting to be assaulted. So I do still think there is a lot, a lot more education that's needed.

And maybe that's because I'm the mum of a 12-year-old daughter. So things like that sort of resonate with me more I've got to be honest um I completely agree and I think as a man um there is a ton of education that we need to understand this topic um from the other side of the spectrum as well because um a lot of my friends um find themselves in a place my male friends where they are like naive and they know they're naive to what consent means i i really agree with that i really agree with that and i think that i just think there should be more emphasis in schools we should be talking about consent more. Interestingly, when I did this project, I met a trans man and he was telling me that when he was a woman, he experienced certain

attention, unwanted attention, and obviously saw it from a female point of view. And then when he transitioned to a man, he was just blown away by some of the things that he was hearing from a man's point of view. So, yeah, that was quite enlightening and interesting. Those are the conversations we need to be having for sure. For sure. you said that you talked earlier on about how you know hard times shape you and i you know it's clear that from everything you've said that resilience is one of your superpowers i've actually had had that written a few times when people talk about you what does that mean to you resilience i think that's true i i think I am a resilient person. I think for me, the battle is won before the war has even started. So, for example, I was diagnosed in 2016 with breast cancer. I remember my husband and my sister, when they were first told the news, I could tell they'd been crying. And I'm saying, come on guys, you know, I need your support here. We, you know, we need to put a strategy together. We've got to put a plan together because that is how,

that's my mindset. My mindset has always been that way. There's got to be a solution to this. You know, there's got to be something better that can come from this. It was a brutal journey. There is no doubt about that. But I remember saying things to myself, like when I have my next scan, the cancer is going to be gone. And when I had my next scan in the January, it had gone. It wasn't on the scan. I then had an operation in the July, I think it was, a lumpectomy. And I was told I was all clear and that there was a 0.1% chance it would come back because I'd had such a good response to treatment.

Unfortunately, I was in that 0.1% and it did return a couple of years later and I had a mastectomy. And when I spoke to the consultant, he said, it's not curable, but it is treatable because it's now gone from stage two to stage four, which was, you know, which was devastating to hear. And of course, I immediately said to him, well, you know, what are the chances of it being cured? I know you're saying it is not curable, but we've all heard of people, oh yes, but you know, that's 0.1%. And my attitude is, well, if anyone is going to be that 0.1% is going to be me because I have to think like that. That's what helps drive me forward and get me out of these situations. If I could have been that 0.1% where it went wrong, I can be that 0.1% where it goes brilliant. And actually I'm right now in what they call excellent remission. So, you know, I'm still got my,

I still have ambitions for more, but I am feeling blessed at where I am. And I think that has a lot to do with my outlook on life. And that's the learning, you know, when nobody wants to wish this, you know, serious illnesses or life-threatening illnesses on ourselves. But for me, I have to find the opportunity in that. Well, where's the good thing? Where's the opportunity? Well, it has made me live a much healthier life. You know, I do appreciate things so much more. You know, I am a different person. I put, you know, my priorities have changed. I love the female empowerment side of what I do,

and I want to invest more time in that. I think this is far more important to me. And I think finding your passion is so, so vital, whether you are going through health issues or not in everything that you do. That bias towards optimism that you describe, like, you know, it sounds like you could be thrown in any sort of situation and you'd be looking at the, as you say, like the 0.1% chance of a positive outcome. That's a really, really remarkable thing, right?

And you've, you know, you've been the CEO of a tremendous company. You'll, you'll be able to look at your organization and see those people in your organization that have that same bias to optimism. When all goes wrong, pandemics show up out of nowhere. They have that bias towards optimism, which is we can. And, you know, like it doesn't even matter if we can't because all we can focus on is we can. And, you know, like it doesn't even matter if we can't because all we can focus on is we can. That's the only choice we have. But you've also probably seen the negative, the other side of that, right? And I guess my question to you is like, from what you've seen in your organization and, you know, even in your life, how important is that? And how costly is the

antithesis of that? Oh gosh, there's a few answers to that first of all in my personal life the first thing that comes to mind is my daughter so when she was in junior school every morning without fail as she left I my husband would take her to school and I would say I can and she would shout back I know I can we did that every morning. And I didn't want her to grow up having that feeling of lacking in confidence and being so painfully shy. I just wanted to empower her as much as I possibly can. So it was just a little thing I used to do. I think, you know, the pandemic is a really good example. I mean, I remember, I mean, at our peak, we had 146 stores. You know, over the years, obviously,

more people are going online. We've reduced our store portfolio. And then, of course, the pandemic, anyone having leases had to negotiate with their landlords. And, you know, we had to suddenly be told that all of your stores had to be closed. I mean, I never, I can never forget that moment. It was heartbreaking, actually, because it was like my baby, you know, to suddenly be told that was incredible. And then, of course, you're thinking, how am I going to tell my teams? We value our people so much. And this was how we're going to talk them through what's, you know, the plan. Because we had to make difficult decisions. We had to let people go. But bringing those people on that really difficult journey was so important. Talking to them regularly, reassuring them, telling them what our plans were, how we were going to get through this.

It was incredible, actually. Yes, we all worked really hard. Everybody worked so hard. But they achieved things I never thought we as a business could achieve. I mean, our sales ambassadors, you know, went from 4,000 to 20,000 in three months because we were doing a fantastic job. I mean, you may say differently, but I think we were doing a fantastic job on social, engaging with our customers and, you know, keeping the conversations going and being relevant in what was going on. And you won't be surprised that we completely sold out of penis pasta.

Penis. Sorry, one second. Take a ad break there for penis. Penis pasta. Of course. Okay. All the supermarkets sold out of pasta and we were pushing pasta and toilet rolls. We were pushing our penis pasta, which is pasta shaped like penis. Okay.

We were doing and still are doing some amazing things. It was a very creative time. Very innovative. Forced innovation innovation very creative and innovative you started working at Ann Summers when you were 19 I did yes how did that happen so I was working at Royal Dalton I had no I had no business experience I had retail experience but it it wasn't, you know, Roald Dorn is a fantastic brand, but it was too quiet and I wanted a much buzzier environment. They offered me management, but I, you know, it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So I was creative as well. So I wanted, I guess there was that creativity. And I worked at

Ann Summers, which was my father's business at the time. And they were, he had sex shops and a mail order business, which was like literally tearing a coupon out of a magazine and posting off what you wanted. I was only working there for work experience and I was invited to a Tupperware. Well, it wasn't Tupperware, it was Pippa D, but it was sort of like Tupperware style party. And it was closed and it was in a council flat in South East London in Thamesmead. And I remember driving there in my mustard coloured mini. I was just, you know, just these two women invited me. They knew what I did and I was just a guest.

And they were showing around the clothes and then somebody got... I do remember actually having to draw a picture of my husband's meat and two veg on a piece of paper on top of my head that and I was sort of thinking this is not how I imagine my career starting but it's uh it's an interesting story and it was women at the party sort of knew I worked at Ann Summers and said look why don't you do Ann Summers parties we want to we'd love to be able to spice up our sex lives but we're too embarrassed to go into a sex shop. And I thought, actually, this is quite a good idea. So I got some of the toys and lingerie from our Tottenham Court Road store we had at the time. I held a few parties myself.

And I remember guests at the party sort of passing the product around like this, because obviously it was switched on. And they were sort of excited, curious, but incredibly nervous at the same time, which now, of course, they just want to know what sizes they come in, what speeds they are, it's completely different. But they were having fun. They were enjoying themselves. They were talking about their relationships. They were just being open and relaxed and candid. And I just thought, this is something completely different. I've never seen anything like this. Even women's magazines aren't this candid. It was that point I thought, if this, if I go forward with this, it's going to be for women only. You know, you're just not

going to get that same atmosphere with, with men and also a mixed group. I just thought women would feel uncomfortable. There'd be other partners, husbands there showing personal product. product this isn't this isn't going to work and I think that was actually one of the best decisions I made so of course today it's sort of like a a female institution but we had at that time there was I think 10% of women going in the stores and I remember taking this idea to the board, walking down this sort of what felt like this long corridor into this room full of all men, all middle-aged, all in grey suits, and telling them about this party I'd been to and these parties that I'd held. And, you know, we need to do something different. We should do Anne Summer's parties. I had no business

experience, by the way, just all from the heart. And I remember one businessman at the meeting, Ron Coleman, he's dead now, so I can talk about him. He stood up and he threw his pen down on the table and said, well, this isn't going to work, is it? Women aren't even interested in sex. So I instantly thought, well, actually, this has got a lot more to do about your sex life than it has about my idea. And, you know, luckily they agreed to it, to invest in some advertising. So I was advertising in the evening standard once a week and I wasn't allowed to put erotic parties. I had to put exotic. And I couldn't say ladies only because of all the rules.

But I used to hold like a seminar once a week at the Strand Palace Hotel. And I'd go up there, meet with people that had seen the advert, probably about 25 people in the room, talk to them about my idea. Obviously, the men I had to ask leave, some would actually get up and leave themselves. They, you know, it was nothing had been done like this before. And I remember, I still remember having those conversations and I remember one couple, it was two women, wanted to do the parties together. Bored housewives living in Chelsea, not the demographic people would necessarily expect. And then all of a sudden people were popping up, groups of people were popping up in different areas. So I recruited the two

girls in Chelsea. I recruited the eight women at the party in Thamesmead. Then what I would do is I would advertise in those areas, concentrate the advertising in those areas. And it really was self-propagating. Then later when we decided to, right, we're ready now to open stores, reopen stores through a female lens. It was like an induction into the brand. So, and it still is, I think, to a degree. It's incredible. And there's something you said at the start there about being naive in business, I thought was really compelling because so much innovation seems to come from being naive. Yeah, I agree.

I had no experience, but that no experience forced me to rely on feedback from my customers. You know, something we don't always do enough of because I had no choice. And what I saw as a disadvantage actually turned out to be, you know, one of my and the brand's main benefits because that's in our dna now that's what we do it's really interesting i've never heard a phrase like that that you uh because you didn't have experience or a ton of knowledge you were learning

from feedback as opposed to like convention convention doesn't create new things it's just more of the same yeah and you know as a woman in business I was only 21 I was quietly spoken not how people would expect a business person to be alone if you like in the sex industry as it was then I don't sort of think of it that way now there's was so much negativity. So from business people, I would have comments. I remember one guy owned a chain of estate agents saying to me, this isn't going to work. It's just a fad. Give it two years. And I think people were so used to doing things how they'd always done them. And we know that, don't we?

And I'm moving on a few years and if it's okay to go off piste again. No worries. You know, when you think of heritage brands like Walrus, you know, doing things the way they'd always done things, that's why I say the pandemic, there were positives because it forced those companies that have done well to do things differently. You talked about the phase in your business where you started opening these stores. In that era, you know, if someone was to open a shop that was perceived as being just a sex shop in my neck of the woods you know when there was a huge amount of stigma towards it can't imagine people being so happy about that it wasn't the people it wasn't

if you were if we wanted to go into a i mean i'll give you an example of loads of examples but you know bromley um we really wanted a presence in Bromley Glade Centre. And I actually remember, you know, I went with the landlords and the centre and, you know, and they were going, well, you know, we could do it. We could do it if you could change the name from Ann Summers. And there was a brand bias. There were many, you know know center management that would say over our dead body and so did someone send you a bullet in the post yes what the fuck why did they send you uh god i wanted to open a store in dublin the sales per head of parties were higher than they were in the UK.

So I knew that, you know, there was an appetite. And we'd found this site in O'Connell Street, which admittedly was a bit of a controversial location because it was right opposite the GPO building. And so, you know, it's where there were, you know, there was violence and clashes and the Dublin Corporation, which is the equivalent of our council, in fact, they might be called council now, were emailing, not emailing me, sending me letters, you know, putting me under pressure not to go ahead, saying that they had another location, Backstreet, but I didn't want to be in the Backstreet. I wanted to be accessible. So they, in fact, it was me, I invited them over to the UK. I just wanted them to see our stores, to see that we weren't trying to shop people, that we, you know, we were shown around by my retail director.

In the afternoon, I invited them to a board meeting. And their names were Kieran and Alan. Kieran couldn't look at me. He sat there without any eye contact at all. Alan sat right next to me, right here, telling him, you know, they were really good cop, bad cop. He's trying to tell me about his sex life and I said to them look you know it's very clear you have your own agenda you're not going to change your mind there's no not much pointless carrying on here and Alan said to me his parting words were well I hope you'll understand that we cannot be held responsible

for what might happen to you which was a very chilling thing to say. And there was loads of negative media because there was all this big hoo-ha about Anne Summers going to O'Connell Street. And I'd never done any media before and I was invited on the Late Late Show, which has sort of got a bit of a cult following. Yeah.

And I was, you know, really nervous about going on the show, but the producer took me out to dinner and said, it's going to be great, you know, it's going to be fine. You know, gave me lots of reassurance. So when I got there and I was sat in the green room, Michael Crawford was on before me. And for those that don't know, he was a legend, iconic comedian. I could hear him on stage, you know, he was a comedian. So he was telling jokes and the audience were laughing. And I'm thinking, my God, what's it going to be like when I go on? So I went on and I sat on the stage.

The presenter had a desk. I was like at the headmistress's office, I'm telling you. I sat there and all the audience were, you know, it was a live audience, sort of tear-shaped. He didn't interrupt introduction and then he then said, right, we'll get alan to speak first and i'm like gosh they never told me about this that alan's going to be on the show alan from the council from the council stood up at the front of the stage and then starts you know beating his

chest telling everyone why there shouldn't be an ann summermers store in Dublin. And then, of course, it was my turn. And I just told the story pretty much how I told you about the sales at the parties. First of all, one woman at the very back at the highest level stood up and she's pointing down at Alan like this, don't you dare tell us where we can and can't shop. And it was fabulous because once one person did it, others did it. And despite us being served a writ on the first day of opening, the Dublin store is now in our top three performing stores. And it's also on the tourist bus route, which, you know, because of that story, which I think, you know, for me is great.

Served a writ. A writ, yeah. So we were taken to court. We won the court case. We got damages because they tried to stop us from opening. And someone sent you a bullet in the post after the show. Oh, sorry. Yes, the bullet in the post that arrived anonymously, obviously, a week before I was due to fly out to Dublin. And how did that feel? Very frightening. But I just felt I've had to deal with a lot of challenges within the business, a lot of preconceived ideas. To me, I felt like I was being bullied and it was actually before, before bullying was even a thing.

But that's how I felt. And I felt so strongly about what I wanted to do that nothing was going to stop me. And I actually, I did get a, somebody, a security person to meet me at the airport. And, you know, that was, but that was about it. That's what I did get a somebody a security person to meet me at the airport and you know that was but that was about it that's what I did you became CEO of Ann Summers in what year was that do you remember I don't but I was in my 20s still I think really becoming a CEO in your 20s is not easy especially if you're going to be completely honest, especially if you're a woman, especially in that time, in that era,

when there is so much discrimination. Tell me about, because I also became a CEO in my 20s, tell me about the discrimination that a woman CEO in that era experiences that I would not know about? Well, there's two, as always, there's two answers to this question, if that's okay. The first one is about being, there were very few businesswomen. So about being a woman in business, you know, you'd meet somebody at a meeting and they would assume that your colleague, if they were a man, they would start talking to them. So there was

that assumption. And I think there is a possibility that still goes on now. And actually I, as you can tell, I'm quite, I'm only five foot one. I looked younger than I was at 21. Well, you're only 25 now, so that's unbelievable. So I was only two then. And my managing director was very tall. Although she was a woman, she was very tall. So there is this bias that if you're short and female, that you can't possibly be running the business. But then I still have that now. So a few years ago, I was speaking,

I was doing the keynote speak at the Retail Live show. And I remembered I was interviewing Baroness Neville Rolfe on stage about her role in business and some of the challenges that we were experiencing, that the industry was experiencing. And I was just walking the boards, basically getting myself comfortable. Some guy came over and he said, I've still got, I've still not got my slides. I'm not looking at him. He said, I'm on in half an hour and I've still not got my, I said, I'm speaking. Oh, and then he just walks off as if that's oh fucking hell and and um another example I've got to tell you this one I jump on the train at the last minute with the first class ticket I've been there have you I

know exactly you know what I'm gonna say yeah I'm at London Bridge all the city boys are sitting in there the train is full. And I'd just come down for Sheffield and just managed to get my connection. I was dressed casual. And I said to this guy, could you just move over, please, so I can sit there? He said, have you got a first class ticket?

Yeah. And I looked at him and I said, you're kidding me, aren't you? He said, no. Have you got a first class ticket. And I looked at him and I said, you're kidding me, aren't you? He said, no, have you got a first class ticket? I said, I'm not answering that. And so he reluctantly moved over and I sat down, but he then carried on. And I'm saying, you know, this is, this is sexist. How many other, how many of these city guys sitting in here have you asked then the guy next to me said who's on the other side of the aisle said just show him your ticket you know we just start arguing just show him your ticket and the woman in front of me was doing this. I'm like, don't calm me down. Don't calm me down. And that's the problem. We need,

you know, that's one of, when people say it's job done, it is not job done. It really isn't job done. Those are the rare instances where you get to see it. But most of it you don't get to see, right? Most of that discrimination is invisible because it will be small decisions compounding against you because of discrimination over decades and decades and decades those are the instances where you can go hmm that was clear prejudice because that was just me um i read that there was a bullying culture and summers in the early i heard that oh Oh, for me? Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I thought you meant during my... Not now. Not now. No, no, but you kind of transformed that because you didn't like that. Yes. Yeah.

And again, that was before bullying was a thing. So we have a parent company called Gold Group International and that person worked in that part of the business. And, you know, and he wasn't the only person, there were others. And bullying was entertainment. In those days, there wasn't the open culture that we have in businesses today, people wouldn't speak up. You know, they, they would assume they're not going to be listened to or, but I, you know, I knew it was going on and I thought this is, this is not, this is not how I want the business to be. So that was, that was actually very, very early on. And you have a no sort of tolerance approach to

that yeah I mean I just don't I get to hear about you know we're small enough that I get to hear about most things and uh that's not something I hear about and if if we did we'd be all over it I ask I ask all my guests this question know, you've built this tremendous business, it's hugely successful. And it's really, as you said, it's more than just a financial success, because it's been almost like a social success. It's been a societal success, because it's kind of led a perception shift, it's dismantled the stigma, which I think, as you've described from the atmosphere, you describe it, these early parties was like liberating for people to be able to be open and speak freely about sexuality and sex and which was to be at one

point um but a consequence of my point is the consequence of business success is um financial success and what role has that played in your in in your life generally as it relates to your fulfillment and everything in between financial success I mean obviously financial success is something you know that as a society I'm not saying as a an individual but as a society we recognize as you know one of the elements of success and you know certainly in my younger time that was you know the more sales the more bottom line all of these things were symbols of success that I recognized and I I started the female empowerment almost from the day I started but didn't realize it so or I didn't I realized, but didn't realise it. So, or I didn't, I realised,

but I didn't realise the relevance of it or the importance of it or how groundbreaking it was going to be. You know, I wanted to create an environment that was for women. I could see why I wanted to do that. And I wanted women to feel safe. I wanted them to be open. As time has evolved, that passion for doing that has evolved, along with so many other things, you know, that to me is what gives me the pleasure more than having nice clothes or whatever. You know, just the financial independence that I've given hundreds of thousands of women. You know, during lockdown, we had women earning £30,000. We were giving out checks of £30,000 a month, obviously not to everybody, but to our top performers. And it was like, who'd have thought we could be, we would be in a position to do that. I mean, that's, that was fantastic.

Sexual empowerment for every woman became something that was really important to me in the last 10 years, you know, uh, five years, that's, that's broadened even further to what we consider to be every woman. You know, our last campaign, for example, which I was at a Halloween campaign, you know, we had trans, we had an amputee, we had slim girls, we had curve girls, we had models, we had customers, you know, involved in this campaign. And that is what every woman is. And that is something I really love. So yeah, money is, money is nice because we, it makes us feel secure. It, it, we're able to treat ourselves. We're able to do nice things. You know, I feel I've worked really, really hard and, you know, I feel I'm, you know, it's nice, it's nice to have nice things

and do nice things. And I feel very privileged. But for me, having that legacy, which is far more important to me that for me, female empowerment is, is what I stand for. And I want to put my stake in the ground and really own it. I was thinking there, as you talked a little bit about the pandemic, much of the reason why I started this podcast was to highlight the more untold parts of CEOs and professional people and successful people's journeys, because a lot of it's glamourised these days, and entrepreneurship is seen as quite a very aspirational thing

to a younger generation who can create you know companies using their mobile phone now but what was the um if when I say like the worst day in business like what's the day that comes to mind for you the hardest day the hardest day was when the Boris Johnson announced that all stores would have to close. Retail would have to close. There was no mention at that stage of furlough schemes, of rates holidays. You know, there was no mention of deals to be done with landlords or what the future held. I honestly was in shock that day. Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that. Because I don't work in that industry, just that the prime minister announcing that you have to close your business

and not offering any kind of hope. And I, you know, and I went on, I mentioned to you earlier, I went on the retail calls and most companies, their level of cash was low. I mean, most companies based on what we were offered at that time, was, you know, you didn't have more than three months cash. So then they, of course, brought out the Sibyl's loan. But I think it was 80% guarantee. We needed that to be 100% guarantee because there were so many,

so many companies were refused credit because the banks were so scared. So that was, you know, you'd thrown a lifeline and then, you know, we did this for about, it was about nine months of, you know, constantly being thrown lifelines that then didn't materialize or weren't applicable to you. In those difficult moments, we turn to our partners in life. You know, they, you know, many occasions bear the brunt of that chaos at home how's your you know talk to me about your home life and how you've met as a ceo of a business that's gone through things like that

how you've managed to maintain a healthy relationship um with your husband um throughout all of this because i think i need some advice would you know it's interesting as he was asking the question because, and I'm definitely not judging here. I'm just saying that my, I mean, I have a wonderful marriage. I have a lovely husband, but when I was going through health issues, you know, let's say, you know, he wasn't the best. He tried, but it's a very, very difficult thing to go through. And it spurns up a lot of emotions. And I think there were times that he, he was brilliant and times that he didn't, you know, handle things as well. And I'm sure anybody

listening would know they've either been in this space or have been in my position. Can I ask, because I don't want to make that mistake in my life. What was missing in terms of... I think it's the emotional support. Okay. I think that's what men struggle with, perhaps in those situations. Because I think he's so used to me being strong. And he said that to me at the time. He is so used to me being strong. That's what it is. And he said that to me at the

time. He is so used to me being strong and resilient, as you said earlier. And I was strong and resilient, but there was a vulnerability about me because obviously I was having treatment that was debilitating. You know, and I think he struggled with that. I think having, you know, at one point, you know, I, I couldn't see, I couldn't feel my feet. Um, I was sleeping most of the time, obviously struggled with nausea and I'd lost my hair. So that is, you can understand why anybody would find that difficult. But in business, when I have business challenges, he, you know, he's remarkably supportive. You talked as well at the very start of this conversation about the passing of one of your children.

Another sort of inconceivable thing to experience. You said at the start, you've experienced a lot of like misfortune in your life. I mean, that's right up there with things that everybody hopes will never happen to them. Are you comfortable to talk about that? Yeah, I'm okay. So you had IVF? Yes. Tell me about that process. I've learned, you know, it's interesting because if it weren't for this podcast and some of the guests that I've sat here with who've gone through the IVF process

and that had the process fail for them, as a young man I would not have a clue about any of that and you know what I also wouldn't have a clue about the struggles that um some women face um to become a parent um so whatever you can tell me about that process and that experience i'd be incredibly grateful for well obviously it's not just women that struggle it's men as well which i think can be very difficult for some you know for men i think they find that harder of course certainly when i went through the ivf i mean mean, it's 12 years, over 12 years ago now. So again,

it wasn't talked about like it is now. And that stigma makes it even more difficult and, you know, makes everybody involved feel, you know, there's something wrong with you. And it can be so many different things, you know, and it's, I don't think it's just a given that people just fall pregnant. And the journey I went on is I did three IVFs in this country. Everything was, if you fall pregnant, if, you know, if we can make an appointment here, if we can do that, everything was an if and felt a bit negative. And then I had to, one of the things I had to do was, or we had to do as a couple, we had to see a counsellor. I think, I don't know if that's still part of the process, but you have to see a counsellor.

And halfway through the counselling session, the counsellor started having a go at me. What the hell? Yeah, she was saying, you're very intense. I'm like, well, I'm just, I'm just hanging, you know, I'm listening to everything you're very intense I'm like well I'm just I'm just hanging you know I'm listening to everything you're saying and I'm interested and she was it felt like she was threatened by me she felt uncomfortable with me it was just a very negative approach and then our our fourth so we we had a break for about two years and then decided to go again. And this time we went to San Francisco.

And everything was when. When you fall pregnant, when this happens. Oh, really? Yeah, we can make this appointment. Call me anytime. Nothing's a problem. And I just think we are, maybe things have changed. And, you know, this was, I was fortunate to use a private clinic,

but there was still this, we're very cautious. We're so cautious in Britain, but that adds to the anxiety. Definitely. One might even go as far as saying that reduces the chance of success. Absolutely. We talked about having an optimism bias. I'm totally convinced of it. Totally convinced. And the disappointment every time we failed was overwhelming. You know, there's this blame. Like, who's at fault here? You know, it is a very difficult, it's a very difficult journey to go on. Very difficult.

And the San Francisco procedure was successful. Yes. And I then found out I was pregnant with twins. and the San Francisco procedure was successful yes and I I then found out I was pregnant with twins which was a shock I didn't want to know what sex they were and at my

first scan he just spent a long time on one of the babies. I didn't really notice. It was my husband that noticed something must be wrong. And afterwards, the radiographer said to us, I'm sorry, but one of the, one of the fetuses is, has a, he used words like an abnormal brain, a morbid outcome. And I think I can still pronounce the condition, but the condition that Alfie had was aloe bar holland press encephaly, which didn't think he was going to make the pregnancy. They said he, I was told he wouldn't make 19 weeks.

But, of course, he did. He went through to birth. And that was very difficult for me because I had grieved for him when he was in the womb. So it was a big shock to me when he was born. And I found bonding with going to the hospital. I was in hospital for a week before I was able to go home. I'd had a cesarean. It was a two-hour journey. And I obviously would take Scarlett with me.

But that was a very difficult time, a very difficult time for me. And he was in hospital for quite some time. And then eventually, we had the confidence to move him out of the hospital and into a fantastic home called the Children's Trust in Tadworth. And then I think that was when I was able to start to build a relationship with him. But nothing prepares you for that. Nothing prepares you for that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just unthinkable and you know as hard as this is to hear

you know he was born in pain and i hear your son born crying in pain not as a any other you know that was that was just the worst thing on earth that the impact that has on a relationship as well a marriage oh god it's just so many there's so many feelings right you know they say you know it's ironic that the

going through the IVF probably you know caused arguments and drove us apart. But when we had our son and he was obviously in hospital and then at the Children's Trust and with this devastating illness, it pulled us together. And my husband, you know, was absolutely amazing. And I mean, to have a strong person by your side in the worst situation you could ever have. But on the, you know, we did manage to, Scarlett was able to spend lots of time with him. We were able to take lots of lovely video footage of him. He was looked after so well there and all of Alfie's memories

and you know I've kept a pirate's box for him and you know he's very much part of Scarlet's life even though he's not here Thank you for your honesty there

I think it's just tremendously valuable and eye opening and it's a window that into a um a set of life events that few um few are um misfortunate enough to experience but um i'm glad i'm just very uh glad that you find the confidence to give us that because yeah these are things that you know people are naive to unless they go through them and I think a lot of the things that you've talked about today um people are naive to unless they go through them um so sharing it okay like for me it's never gonna make me understand fully but I think it gives me a ton of empathy towards the people that go through those situations.

So thank you for that. Something else you mentioned at the start of this conversation was about a nanny. And I wrote that down because it was a slightly obscure thing to hear, but I wanted to come back to it just before we conclude, which was that you were poisoned by a nanny. I've been very unlucky, haven't I? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was bizarre. This was bizarre. This is like a movie. I had this nanny. It was when Alfie was obviously in the home,

so I needed all the help I could get. And I trusted her implicitly with my daughter. And I had a really good relationship with her. I liked her. She was a lovely girl and, you know, very reliable, etc. I also had a lady that used to sort of pop in and do odd jobs. And while I was going through that period without fee, she would also prepare our meals. So all I had to do before HelloFresh and Gusto, it's what I had to do to, you know,

she'd just make it easier for me. And what I didn't know was that she and the nanny didn't get on. And the nanny, instead of coming to me and saying, look, I've got a problem here, can we talk about it? She thought the best tactic would be to cook the sack. So she thought, I know, I'll start off by putting copious amounts of sugar in the food after she's prepared it. So I came home from work and I sat there and cooked dinner. Everything seems fine. And we had fish. And when we sat down to eat the fish,

the sauce tasted like custard. But, you know, the first time it happens, you think, maybe she acts, I don't know, maybe she's just used the wrong pot. Yeah. And then the second time, a few weeks later, same thing happened again. This time it was salt. And I thought there's something wrong here. Um, and I want, I obviously needed to talk to the, to the lady that was doing the food. So that's what I'd arranged to do. But before I had chance to speak to her, the nanny was taking my daughter to Bluewater and I'd left my lunch at home. And so I called her, I said, you wouldn't drop it in for me, would you? She said, yeah, no problem. I'll do it on the way. So she came over, unbeknownst to me,

on the way, pulled over, poured screen wash into my soup, sealed it all back up again, then went to the petrol station, sorted herself out petrol for the car. She's got my daughter in the back, brings it to my office, gets in the lift, brings it up, gives it to me. I say, thanks, Ali, taking it from her. Then she's gone off to Blue Water with Scarlet. So I didn't know straight away because it wasn't until I came to eat it at lunchtime. Luckily, I took quite a large mouthful. And the reason I say that is because I don't think I would have tasted it otherwise. And I spat it out because immediately it tasted of chemical. Of course, screen wash can kill you. you and um yeah we I then went into meltdown because obviously she got my daughter with her

did you know straight away that she'd done that I yes I I it was just instinct my instinct was she it was her but I needed to talk to the cook first. But this all happened too quickly. I thought, if I ring the police, is she of sound mind? Would that make things worse? So I just waited for her to, because she was due to come back anyway, and dropped Scarlett off with me. And yeah, when she did, I took Scarlett and my HR, Gary at the time and someone else, my sister actually, I think it was, confronted her.

And what did she do? She admitted it. You're joking. and what did she admitted it you joke not at first first of all she denied it but went bright red and then they said look if you tell us the truth we won't need to get the police involved so she just blurted it out she said okay i did it i don't i don't like the cook i don't like the cook. And of course, I then felt I could do nothing but call the police because this is a woman that is going to, even when she leaves me, she's going to get another job doing this, where she could do something like this to another family. and so she was charged. It went to court. She appeared on Good Morning Britain first thing in the morning and was at court in the afternoon,

which didn't go down well with the judge, as you can imagine, you know, trying to get public sympathy and... Sorry, public sympathy? Yeah, I think, you know, trying to get public sympathy and... Sorry, public sympathy? Yeah, I think, you know, these people don't always see their own wrongs, do they? It's never their fault. Whose fault was it and have you?

I think she just, she was just trying to put herself across in a positive way. You know, she wasn't trying to harm me, but nevertheless, she was in a trusted position. And you can imagine the sort of trauma I felt for those few hours. And actually afterwards, because, you know, you then are questioning whether you can ever trust anybody again. I'm, I just, you know, it's something else that makes you feel vulnerable. the the court case cancelled and of course once it goes through that process it can't anyway she was uh found guilty she was sentenced to um a year in prison and she served three months that is awful do you know what i mean like potentially killing somebody and um poisoning someone's food

you get three months in prison and then when she came out of prison i then um had to take out an injunction on her because i found out that she was trying to write a book about that time i mean you know how much more disgusting can it get what a ride it's been very colorful what are your like inclusive life lessons when you reflect on your own journey in business in life what are some of the like you know the things you'd say to your daughter if you were trying to advise her on the potential roller coaster that life can be as it has been for you I mean I try I'm somebody who tries to have few regrets because I don't think there's any great benefit to that.

But there are things I definitely would have done differently. I think, you know, I do have courage, but you can never have enough of it. And in certain situations, I always find myself the first one to be daring I suppose is the word I'm looking for um I think that's a good thing I could think that's a good thing in life I think being engaging is a good quality I'd want my daughter to have which is why I've always wanted her to be as confident as possible, to always believe that you not only can you be anything you want to be, but you don't have to follow the norm. And actually it's good to be different. My business pieces would be slightly

different actually, because I, you know, I think the things I wish I'd done more of are networking. And I told you about the story about going to San Diego. And I guess that's where I was going with that because in America, networking is something that people do all the time. And in this country, at the time I started out, it was nowhere near what it is today. And I think particularly for women, women, you know, my husband is a brilliant networker. I mean, you know, wherever he does it, he'll do it anywhere. And, you know, I know when he says, oh, I was playing golf again, actually, you know, he's just natural at it. It's part of who he is. But I think, you know, women, it's the thing where you think, I haven't got time for that. I've got to really focus on this job or I've got to finish

this deadline. But I have realised as I've got older, you know, every time you walk in a room and meet a room full of strangers, there's an opportunity there, you know, that could possibly change your life. And actually, you were telling me something similar earlier when you were talking about the apprentice oh right yeah exactly yeah yeah so you know I've got to tell basically we were talking about the apprentice before we started recording and um uh Jacqueline you were on the apprentice yeah um and I was saying that I basically got threw off The Apprentice The Junior Apprentice when I was 14 years old

as some of you might know but in the queue I met a family the Aluwalia family it was actually the son of the Aluwalia billionaire I believe he's a billionaire now was in the queue with me got chatting to him, Jay Aluwalia and although I got kicked off the show

and therefore didn't get the 25 grand that I would have got at 14 years old to start my business he ended up investing multiples more than that in my business and that was just someone that I met in the queue and had great conversation with because we were auditioning together for seven hours so um and I think that's brilliant a brilliant example yeah completely agree yeah so Brilliant example. Yeah. Completely agree. Yeah. So, and the people piece that I said to you earlier, I wished I had recognized the importance of, you know, for me, you know, people are the success of your business. And I wished I'd recognized that earlier. Amen to that.

That's the single number one thing that i wish i'd recognized earlier i thought it was about me because i was naive and dumb and probably a bit i don't know arrogant i thought my business success was about my ability but it was all about the people that i pulled together and the culture i bound them with. So I had an idea last week, which we wanted to try. Historically, we get our guests just to sign the book. But what I would like you to do instead of that, as well as signing the book, is just to write a question. And whoever sits in this seat next,

and it could be anybody, right? Could be someone at the very, very top of business, the very top of politics, the very top of sports. Could be anybody. I'm going to ask them that question. We're not going to read it out right now, but next week's episode, I will pose them that question. So whatever question you want to write in this book, feel free.

Okay. It's going to be a secret until next week's episode. Okay. Fab. Thank you so much. Thank you thank you you know you're just remarkable it's quite staggering that you've both gone through so much adversity as you've described and misfortune as you've you've called it and um yet you are the person you are today and there's such a huge amount of optimism which shines through when you speak about these incidents. And even, you know, you were talking about some of some incidents that are just unthinkable for one person to go through in their life, just one of those incidents.

Yeah. You always caveated it with a but, and that was always the silver lining. And I think to have that attitude where you can always see the silver lining or the lesson or the value in adversity is a remarkable thing that um i think you know will will create as we described with the negativity bias that you saw in the ivf system in the uk can actually dictate the outcome in our lives yeah and the last two years has been you know the greatest need for an optimism bias i think we've all experienced so thank you you've inspired me tremendously i read about your story before you came here today and I was just blown away but I was blown away by your success as well as a businesswoman because coming into a company at 19 and becoming the CEO and leading it as you have and changing the business and then

leading this incredible charge against uh you know a male stigma um but more broadly a social stigma around sex sexualization and sex and and um and i guess equality um is just a remarkable remarkable thing you know and this is the reason why i started this podcast was to get to meet people like you that would inspire me and i just happened to record it so other people could listen so thank you well it's been a real joy I I have really enjoyed it um and I really look forward to hearing it and seeing it yeah thank you so much honestly amazing you are amazing thank you Outro Music