The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Ashley Walters (Top Boy): "Me & Kano Didn't Have The Greatest Time!". The Unheard TRUTH About Top Boy, Career Rejection & Personal Grief!

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

In this new episode Steven sits down with rapper and actor, Ashley Walters. From Asher D to Top Boy, prison to fame, Ashley Walters refuses to be told what he can or can’t do. Ashley first gained popular attention in 2001 as Asher D, a member of British Rap Group, ‘So Solid Crew’. Acting in TV shows since he was 10 years old, in 2004 Ashley broke into film with, ‘Bullet Boy’, for which he was named Best Newcomer at the British Independent Film Awards. This led to roles in major Hollywood blockbusters such as ‘Get Rich Or Die Tryin’. In 2011, Ashley starred as Dushane in the massively popular TV show, ‘Top Boy’.  In this conversation Ashley and Steven discuss topics, such as: Attending therapy  His relationship with his father  His anger with the world as a teenager His father’s time in prison  Looking for father figures and role models Joining So Solid Crew for belonging  Being a people pleaser and not feeling good enough His last encounter with his father  The lessons he learned from his dying father  Not grieving for his father  Being a perfectionist  Obsessing over the fact that he was going to die young His experience of prison  Being constantly motivated Having a strict upbringing  They key to his talent  Wanting to escape being himself  Being naturally shy  Using acting as a way to escape trauma  The tough life of acting  Turning adversity into motivation Moving into being a director Always needing the next challenge in his life His depression during the Coronavirus pandemic  The importance of forgiveness  His relationship with his wife  Struggling with opening up with his emotions Fatherhood Not having the greatest relationship with some of his children Top Boy How the script for Top Boy got Ashley hooked Why Channel 4 didn’t make a third season of Top Boy Why Top Boy became the success it did  How he will push himself for an acting role  Filming the last season of Top Boy His future Top Boy opening the door for black British culture worldwide Follow Ashley: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3RfAyI9 Twitter: https://bit.ly/48f3PZt Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I was obsessed with the fact that I was going to die young. I wanted to hurt people the way I was hurt. Some of the things that go through my head scare me. That's the one! Nice. I've got 21 seconds to go. Actor. Here we go.

Top boys in the building. Growing up, I had a lot of trauma and it made me angry with the world. My dad was in prison most of my childhood. The local bad boys, they became dads to me and I started to follow in their footsteps. I'm still paying the price for those years now. But once I get in front of a camera, it's not that Ashley anymore. Top boy. Top boy. Top boy. The greatest show that's ever come out of the UK. Light him up. It's crazy. You know, it changed my life. But filming the last season, me and Kane,

we didn't have the greatest time. People don't understand. We go hard for that show. We go hard to make sure characters are being represented in the way they should be. And we faced a lot of resistance. How?

The truth is... 2005. You had rekindled your relationship with your father. Yeah. And then he died, i never realized it would affect me that much took me to some dark places making decisions that were gonna come back to haunt me you know um man i want to break down now just talking about it

actually i've got an interesting observation that i wanted to start with i the way you speak the way you've been chatting to me before we started rolling, it almost reminds me of someone who has had a bit of therapy or has done some work on understanding the unobvious subconscious forces that are at play in their life and what you've had to delve into because i think as i this is often the case in this podcast i think our like earliest context shapes us in a profound way and it's something that's quite hard to unshape ourselves with undo as we become adults so what is that early context that you all, I've had a lot of therapy, right? So I've been in a lot of situations where I've been counseled, you know, I've sought help because I needed it, right? Had a lot of trauma i guess that that has kind of stuck with me over my life and i think one of the biggest things for me was um my dad really

that's what i stem back to like growing up um just not having a father figure around and the places that push me to. And don't get me wrong, like a lot of people have gone through that and come out the other side and not been like me, but I dealt with it in like a really crazy sort of way. You know, it made me angry angry made me angry with the world so all throughout my you know my so solid years and my early kind of acting years um my attitude towards life and towards other people was very i mean it was wrong you know it was quite negative and I wanted to hurt people the way I was hurt and sometimes I did you know sometimes I did it came out in a lot of different ways

some of the people I cared about some of the people were close to me and some people I didn't know random people but got me into a lot of trouble with the police yeah you know i just didn't care about myself as a teen growing up so and look i had some amazing supportive people around me like my mom is amazing i've got an amazing family but that one niggling thing of kind of being slightly lost about what a man is um not feeling like i fit in rooms with other men you know in groups of people and stuff like that just like having this niggling doubt about myself all the time um made me quite a difficult person to be around um growing up and trying to explore that so yeah when I and I didn't know it was, that's why at the time.

I didn't know it had anything to do with, you know, not having my dad around. Like my dad, when he was around, you know, he was in prison most of my childhood growing up. That was like France. He used to say he was in France. So to me and my younger brothers, like anytime, you know, my mum would be like, he's in France or someone would say he's in france or whatever that was like code for prison didn't know at the time it's something i learned later on but it was he was in france a lot of times so you know i mean it was like um so there was a few phone conversations and stuff like that with him but never had him there and then when he would turn up he would just turn up randomly at my house and stuff.

And one thing I always remember is that I always wanted to go with him, right? Because he was a superhero to me. You know, I didn't care as much as the other adults cared about the fact that he was, you know, in and out of my life and what damage that was doing to me and stuff like that. I was just like, I want to see my dad. Everyone else has got a dad. Why haven't I got a dad? You just like i want to see my dad everyone else has got a dad why haven't i got a dad you know i want to know my dad so my mom would i gotta give my mom a lot of credit because she would never bad mouth him in front of me even though i know that she wanted to and she would always give me the option so anytime he would come she was like would you like to go and i would obviously go and then i'd

come back crying because something had happened you know like one of the you know my dad drank a lot i remember one time he took me to a party it was like a family party it was like after a christening or something like that um and he was he got so drunk and they threw him out. He had a fight with someone in the party and he was, he got thrown out. And I remember having to like, you know, maybe like 10, 11 tops having to carry him home. Literally down the street, like carry this guy home to my grands, to his mums. You know, being chased by the police in the car, you know, and pushing my head down in the back.

I just remember that image of him going like, look, keep your head down and stuff like that. And he was getting chased by police. And I laugh about it now. It's more an uneasy laugh that's happening. This is not me being like proud of any of this. It's just, those were my images. those are my images and memories of like being with my dad but without fail my mom said you want to go back and go back you know i wanted a dad he

weren't the best dad you know but i wanted someone there and kind of eventually when i realized when i got a bit older and i was kind of angry with him for how he treated me it became i'm gonna find other figures other dad figures other role models in my community um so the you know the local bad boys the local dealers they became dads to me you know and i started to to follow in their footsteps a bit do you know i mean and adopt the same attitude adopt the same swagger um you know i think even joining soul solid was was never about music for me in the beginning it was about belonging it was about like it was the first time you know i was part of the gang and there was a lot of older men in there in that group that looked after me you know took care of me and seemingly at the time loved me do you know i'm

saying as much as you know as far as i was concerned so i spent a lot of years bouncing around like that the the funny thing is about it is i was having success throughout this this you know throughout this process, like making films and successful TV shows and music and stuff like that. Like, so I guess that I had talent, you know, I had a gift that was shining through, but learning how to be a man, I didn't, I didn't get, I didn't know't know you know i thought that was aggression i thought that was don't take no shit from anyone do you know i mean don't cry don't take no shit be hard you know try and stand up for yourself but emotionally i was incapable of the other stuff

that really builds the real picture of what a man is. Where does the anger come from in that situation of like abandonment, needing a father, the father not meeting the expectation that you want him to be? I often hear it with kids, like you're desperate for your father to like be a father and you're, you repeatedly give them another chance to be that person. And they continue to let you down over and over and over again. And it's funny because I've sat here with like child psychologists and gabble mate and all of these geniuses that study children at your young

age and um it's funny how the one thing that gabble said to me who's maybe like the number one child psychologist in the world said to me he was like children in any context think everything's about them they're narcissists so if the parents are arguing they interpret that as something about them and if they so even in the context of what you've described your father's behavior there he almost he's got his own problem clearly but you interpret it as meaning something about you of course yeah and do you understand have you been able to understand what the interpretation was how you interpreted that situation um i think not in not in that much detail but i guess you know surface wise that that i wasn't good enough you know i can only say that because of how i've treated myself um because i never i i generally generally i never think i'm good enough to be doing anything that i'm doing

you know i always feel like there's always like a sly little bit of me and it's like they're gonna catch me out next week like i'm i shouldn't have this opportunity you know i always i'm always going to make the most of it I'm always going to prove to people that I'm good enough to be here but I'm always there's always that niggling doubt of what the other person's thinking about me you know and um and that's something that I'm still working on today I'm still working on the whole process of understanding like um you know someone else's opinion of me is none of my business do you know what i'm saying like and just accepting that you know going into a room and if i see people talking in the corner wondering are they talking about me you know having those like that sort of thought

process is tough but i think it stems from um rejection i think it stems from rejection. I think it stems from, you know, being abandoned slightly. I mean, I hate to use that word, but because, you know, my mum, my mum will be upset about me using that terminology, because she never understood, and bless her, you know, my mum's a very intelligent woman, but one thing she couldn't understand emotionally was the fact that I still wanted him her you know my mom's a very intelligent woman but one thing she couldn't understand emotionally was the fact that i still wanted him you know and even you know up until he died and after he died there was loads of moments where i was broken and she would she was just like

what is wrong with you like why you know you didn't really know him like that. Like, why are you, you know, she just didn't get that. Yeah, I just wanted him to be proud. You know, if anything, you know, I'd just love him to see me now. I'd love him to understand, like, who I've become, what I've achieved. I think in the beginning that was more about, that was like a stick your finger up sort of thing. Like even without you, I did great, you know. But the reality is like the last encounter I had with him was the most beautiful encounter ever.

You know, maybe that I've ever had with any person that I love. Like, and he said some things to me that really have stuck with me you know really i changed my life going forward but you know he didn't he didn't care he was like and i mean he cared about me but he didn't care about the stuff that i was doing he was like that's meaningless it's like you know all of that can be taken away at any time you know i'm glad you've got talent i'm glad you feel fulfilled in like what you're trying to achieve in life and your life goals and that. But I wouldn't care if you did that or you didn't.

You'd still be my son and I'd still love you as much as I do. And he was always concerned about my fight my fight for perfection because i spend a lot of time like trying to dig deep to make things perfect right and it's only now i know that nothing nothing can be perfect there's no such thing, you know. And I think I eventually understood, like, you know, it's not always going to go my way, right? But I have to be slightly more willing to adapt, to accept that. And when I have been more willing to accept it, good things have happened, you know. you know i gotta be open to it

he passed away in 2005 right yeah yeah and by that time you had sort of rekindled your relationship to some degree i when i was reading through i think it's so solid um page 12 you referred to him at that time as a waste of space which i guess was a reflection of how you were feeling about him at that time yeah i mean it's so funny you bring that book up because i don't even i won't even read that book really i don't even think i've ever read it if i'm honest with you and i mean i mean there's not that much to read if I'm honest it's a lot of pictures but um but yeah probably that's how I mean that's how I felt for a lot of the time I think those last two weeks when I was in I was shooting Get Rich or Die Try and I was in Canada

he forced his way out to come and see me because you know he knew how I felt about him and he knew he only had weeks left to live. And he was like, look, I have to come and see you. And he came and he lived with me for those, like, two weeks. And I was already in the process of, like, so I had this thing back then that I was going to die when I was like 33. It had been something that I said to my mum from a young age. And she was like, randomly one day at like 6, 7, you was like, you're going to die at 33 or whatever. And she was like, I don't know where you got that from, but you've been obsessed with that.

And as an adult, I was obsessed with the fact that I was going to die young. I wasn't going to survive past that age so i got someone to start filming me every day and i got a friend to just start documenting my like daily life on camera and when i went to canada shoot, I took the camera with me and just said, look, I'll get some like some footage myself when you're not, while you're not here. My dad came and I just decided to turn the camera on. So I did. So every night, you know, while he was there, he was like, you know, go and get me some weed. This guy had lung cancer, could hardly breathe. He was like know go and get me some weed this guy had lung cancer um could hardly breathe he's like go and give me some weed and you know i'll get him some drink and stuff

like that and we'll be sitting there for hours like for hours and hours and i just put the camera down on the table and that and just film him and just ask him the most random questions just about life like um you know where was you where was you at this time where was you that time whatever and the guy was like for context when i was in prison i was in prison in like 2001 right and he wrote to me a few times. And it was the first time I understood that my dad was illiterate. Like he couldn't read or write. So these letters were so like, it's just fucked up, man. It was just like, I had no idea that he had that issue. And I read these letters.

I was like, wow. So that gave me another level to my hate for him. It was like, now you're dumb as well. Like, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It was like Yeah I really don't like Like I don't know So it was evil but

It was just another excuse for me not to like him Right So cut back to being in Canada He I sat down with him and filmed him And found out that he was one of the most intelligent people i know just from being streetwise just from life experience do you get what i'm saying like it actually burnt me because i didn't want him to know anything i didn't want him to have anything to really offer me in the end when i delved deeper into who he was as a person.

But all the things I was going through with women, with life, with, you know what I mean? It was like he had a wealth of knowledge that he could speak to me about. He couldn't write it down, couldn't really articulate it in the greatest way. But just listening to his kind of anecdotal sort of stories and whatever i got what i needed to get from it and i filmed him kind of going through it um but there was also like a huge fear as well you know i realized in that moment that he had he had genuine excuses for being the person he was i mean he grew up didn't have the greatest upbringing you know he was in care he was slightly neglected by his own parents you know and you know he was the bad kid

of the bunch and he just kind of got pushed out and that kind of led to his life and things happened etc etc but i understood it from his point of view when i heard him talk about it and i was like actually okay i can see why you would be the person that you are and actually maybe you did me a favor by not being there too much because who would i be you know would i be the person i am today and um but then you know after realizing i love this guy and i'm enjoying spending time with him and we were like good friends and we went to clubs together out there. This guy's like, you know, thin, like wafer thin, like on death's doorstep,

and he was making the effort to come out with me and, you know, rave and do all this stuff. But at night, at bedtime, I laid in my bed awake every night just staring at the scene and thinking he's gonna die here because he was just coughing all through the night man it was like you know like he was coughing up his lungs like i was like i was praying that it didn't happen, you know, there. And then he died, man. He'd like, you know, left, left, literally got off the plane. They rushed him to hospital because he was going on the plane,

rushed him to hospital. He died whilst I was filming. And, you know, it wasn't the best way that i found out um i was filming at the time i was doing a scene with 50. it was like a really emotional scene um outside on location and the vibe just changed on set like you know in between takes everyone stopped talking it was quiet it was like this and like the producers were just like looking at me and i was like nah i knew Do you know what I mean Something had happened

I knew something was wrong And they was like Look We're gonna take a break Just Go and call home You need to call home Ashley So I went to my trailer

And called my partner At the time And she was like I'm sorry man I mean he's gone So I was It was tough It's tough it was tough this tough moment this tough moment um yeah and I was I was broken I was broken I never realized it would affect me that much broke me and um crazy but the one thing i remember from that moment is i went to my trailer i broke down some of the actors came like troy

bryant she came in and she was just like just hugged me and I was just crying and stuff and 50 came in and was he won't remember this and I know it wasn't malice or is any bad intentions but he was like I'm sorry to hear about your dad and it just started talking about a scene to someone you know when someone's like sorry to hear about your dad man anyway um whatever and i was like you know talking to him after it was like he's been through some some shit you know that's made him really like um but i hadn't been through anything like that And at that point, that was my first real kind of close encounter with death. Like, and having someone that meant so much to me pass away. But my first instinct was to work, to continue working.

I continued working. I flew back for the funeral for literally one day. Did the funeral and then I left. I went back to work. I just plowed through and I didn't grieve. And I haven't. You haven't? I don't think I have.

You know, I don't. I don't know what you call it. Because even like now, I want to break down now. Just talking about it. I don't think I have, you know, I don't, I don't know what you call it. Cause even like now I want to break down now just talking about it. I don't know. It was just like 2005, right? It's like 18 years or whatever. So, I mean, is that an indication that I haven't dealt with it enough? Yeah.

I don't know. The feelings you have towards his, his are they are they complicated are they because are there unanswered conversations are there is there is there any regrets in there is there what are what were those feelings because Because your mother, as you said, was surprised by your reaction to his loss. From him dying, I lost, I went off the rails a bit. You know, I went off the rails a bit in the sense of my ego took over and I lost any sort of spiritual connection that I had with life or the universe up until that point.

You know, I've never been the most religious person, but I've always been a believer in, like, universal law right like in in if i give i will get you know in the in the in the in the way that things are meant to be you know anything that's happened in my life has been manifested in some sort of way you know when i wanted to be in so solid i knew who so solid were before they knew who i was you know and i was i made a i looked in the mirror one day and said i'm going to be in that group you know and that was i was a little boy on the streets working out ways to to be and the universe can constantly bring in people around my situation that was connected to that situation that was

bridging the gap for me you know so I only had to be I only had to you know focus and believe or whatever so I believe in all that all that stuff but when it come to when my dad passed I like I lost a lot of that those beliefs I lost a lot of that understanding and I became slightly like yeah just lost you know lost I was you know I drank more you know I did I cared less about myself about where I was going and about you know what I wanted in life and stuff and um yeah that led me on a on a different a different sort of journey you know um took me to some dark places if I'm honest dark places yeah, just like, like definitely thing for me was, like, my relationship at the time.

I gave up on, you know, I gave up on it. I became quite, like, promiscuous. You know, I abused the, the celebrity that I had, you know, like I gave into the temptation that was around me a lot more, you know, and I really hurt my first partner by being that person and actually that resulted in in me having two kids out of my relationship you know so two of my children who I love dearly um you know came from from that situation but I think that was like a big part of my like

you know my reckless sort of rebellious sort of attitude and I mean the only way I can put it is that I I became I came before everyone at that point you know me and my ego and like the world revolved around me and I think before that point even though I did have moments of being quite wayward and whatever i was still um caring loving ashley you know that's how i that's how i grew up um but yeah i definitely came out of my box from that point on um and I guess to me at the time, it was like, you only live once. You know,

I don't fear anyone. Whatever happens, happens. It was that whole thing that was going on, but I'm still, still paying the price for those, those years now. Those tapes.

Have you still got them? It's another upsetting story, man. So I set up a production company, me and a good friend of mine at the time, but I was a nightmare to deal with. The demons were there and i've i don't i didn't give a hundred percent into this company at all so like a lot of the weight was left on them to kind of hold it up and then i think this person this guy was going through his own troubles as well at the time with his dad and his family and stuff so you know it was a disaster in

the end but either way you know we had an archive of footage that we created from filming that we never knew what we was going to use it for but all the stuff i filmed my dad went into this archive um and when the company actually was dissolved and you know we kind of fell out at that point he took all the tapes and the footage and for how many years now i've been asking to get it back because we don't speak you know but for maybe 10 years now i've been trying to send messages through people i know know him and stuff like that and i've just had no response you know and the last thing i want to do is go into some legal sort of battle for it or whatever but it's the last you know the other stuff i can let go but the stuff with my dad like it's the last

things i've got i don't have pictures of him you know i know i don't have like family portraits and anything like that all i really have is those those tapes and they're like they're like my um do you know that movie um things to do in denver when you're dead yeah they're like you know it's like that to me it's like gold dust it's like i can i could probably watch those tapes and it could probably help me through a lot of tough times that i face now or maybe even my kids you know maybe even um help the boys somehow so it'd be nice to get them back it's it's it's really sad it's like it's hurtful man you know and i hope one day i can resolve that situation do you even know if that person still has them do you know what i mean i could be sitting there with the you know thinking that he has them but he might not i'm pretty sure he does i'm pretty sure that last two weeks with

your father before he passed away um my first question is did you did you know he was going to pass away soon and um what did you take from that those two weeks of sitting with him and asking what is the what did you walk away with that you didn't have in that moment you knew he was much more intelligent than you ever knew but the the lessons you speak of that you've have stayed with you ever since and that have seemingly guided you what were those lessons i knew he was going to pass away um i hadn't accepted it yeah you know but it was obvious that he was going to die right it was obvious um lessons um i think is i got from it what what I, one of the key things I needed. I think one of the key things you need from knowing your dad is knowing where you come from.

I think that's such a, it's just such a key point in being a dad like if my son can look at me i can look at my son and kind of he knows who i am he knows where i came from he knows what my values are you know what i expect of him and stuff like that then i think it makes him easier for him going out there to be just a person to be a human being when you're when you're constantly looking for that reference point right you're lost you know and and when i spent those two weeks with him i kind of got a better understanding of oh okay this is why i do that funny thing with my eye When You know what I mean I'm lying or This is why I feel this way at this point

And You know He was powerful As a man He didn't have anything Didn't have anything But He

Oozed some sort of confidence and charm right that you can't buy like you know i mean um and i felt that and i saw that in him and it made me understand about i should feel more like that by myself do you know i mean i should feel more like that by myself. Do you know what I mean? I should feel more powerful. Look, you don't have to be a dickhead, you know, when you're, you know, when you're confident. Doesn't have to come across that way. But he had that, like, that level of confidence with, like, some beautiful sort of humility that went with it but you know

and that was my dad that was my dad so it made me know that i can be that person you know i don't need to doubt myself as much as i do um and he stripped away from me he constantly in that little time I spent with him he stripped away all the because I was like hiding myself in success I've got this I've got this watch I've got this car this coat and staying in this apartment and this and that or whatever and he didn't give a shit about any of that and I don't know whether he was doing it on purpose but he genuinely was like well i mean it's it's good i mean but and he he he knew a lot more about me than i thought he did so he'd paid attention somehow um but i walked away from that meeting that encounter knowing that he loved me and knowing that he was proud of me you know he was proud um and that was good enough what would you say to him if he was listening now?

I think I didn't tell him thank you I hope he didn't get on that plane feeling like You know, feeling like I was still unhappy with him because i treated him quite bad you know especially when i mean when he was going through his cancer when he told me he had cancer i was like whatever like i don't even believe you you're probably just saying it for me because you want me to talk to you that's how i that was my attitude towards towards him in that period of time that's how much anger i was holding so you know i let go of a lot of that whilst we was together but i do wonder if there was any doubt in his mind when he left you know because i couldn't you know it's not like i

was like you know all over him and touchy feely and kissing him and you know rubbing him and stroking him and stuff i still kept a bit of a you know a toughness about it like i'm not gonna let you in like that you know but i do i do hope that he could read between the lines and know that i'd soften slightly and like let him in a bit. If you could see all the success you've had now, what do you reckon you'd think? All that you've done? It'd probably try and tell me like, you know,

it'd be like, you're not doing this right. You're not doing that right. You could improve in this area and that area and whatever, but probably butt heads about it. But you know, that'd be all good i'd take that now in hindsight i'd take you know i mean i'd take it you try and be your dad that's what i mean that's it yeah that's it moms do the same yeah yeah some of i do envy some of my friends that i know like i've got really good relationships with their dads and you know their dads have looked over their contracts and stuff like that you know i mean

i've been a major part of their life you know i'm determined to do that for my my kids if they ever need it in hindsight though we we look at the some of the most difficult things we've been through and overcome and we understand the correlation that has with the better things about us or the things that we're proud of like there's often a surprising link between the worst thing that's happened to us or the worst trauma we've had and the best thing that's happened to us and as I was listening to all of that you know you used this word talent at the very beginning you said I must have had just had a talent but I'm not necessarily sure what you mean by talent because you grew up with an ability to have that talent in multiple areas you were you had it in music

you had it acting in a very young age and there's part of me that wonders that you know about the link of the things that you went through in the circumstances you were in and how that left you with this trait you described as not quite ever thinking your work or you were good enough how that actually all played into your drive and ambition to go that extra mile to work that extra hour to spend an extra hour in the editing studio and i often see in people that when they have that feeling of like some call it imposter syndrome i don't like the term that they actually produce better work because they end up becoming the perfectionist that you your father told you not to be so it's interesting that there's a correlation there and um if i asked you you know because i was looking at this and you started acting super young i'm wondering how it's possible that at 15 years old you are not only joining one of the most successful

groups at the time in so solid crew but you're also acting on the bbc 15 16 7 17 years old you're doing two things that most people never i mean if if one person had just been in so solid crew that would be a success they would be a success but for you to be doing both things at the same time what have i missed here like what is it about you that um your character traits your philosophy your mindset that you think has really guided you through that process i'm gonna i'm gonna struggle to really to answer this steven if in all honesty because it kind of involves like um it kind of involves bigging myself up a bit more than I'm comfortable with if I'm honest um But Since we're here No joke

No I think it's more Look I don't I believe there's Some of that charm that we spoke about That I saw in my dad I know I have in me So I have the I have that ability

I know how to talk to people right i know if i kind of if i get into a situation like this with me and you like i can make people like me it's a little thing that i've got um and i try and bring that out in the characters that i play on the screen um i think i always bring a bit of myself to the roles i play so as much as i'm hiding behind these characters or whatever the engine room is ashley and if i can find ways to use my trauma to portray this i do um i think outside of the ring when i say ring i mean the acting space i'm humble you know i don't brag i keep it simple and i treat people as good as I can, do you know what I mean? And I give back a lot, you know, I'm always about, like, trying to help other people, it's always been a part of me,

so I think that's helped move me forward, and I think especially in, like, within the black community, you know, where I was one of the first to kind of break through when there was only a few black faces on screens and a lot of black people that are you know maybe in their 40s now have grown up watching me um that've never like turned my back on you know where i came from you know for some reason in some way i've managed to stay in that place where it's like oh it's ash yeah you know i mean i'm like um you haven't lost sight of yourself yeah it's like people are comfortable around me this is why like still to this day you know a lot of people are

like bro why are you just walking down the street or why are you just on the train or why are you just sitting in this like because i can because people don't really you know they don't really want to like i don't have the do you know i mean the justin bieber effect on people like you don't have to shut down stores or whatever when i come in like people look and stuff like that but it's like i just feel like they've got they used to me yeah you know i mean and i think like i mean i'm straying off point a bit but i think like all of this as part of my character as part of my personality ties into why i've been working for so long you know why i've managed to maintain relationships in the industry and why i have a solid like fan base you know solid base of supporters that will show up to my shows to watch my films or watch do you

know what i mean why people still invest in me yeah it makes sense and we often don't think about the role that people skills will play over a long period of time but it's like a force that's either it's like an invisible force like your reputation in terms of how you've shown up for people that will um when you zoom out will catch up with you either way for better or for worse you know what i mean yeah that's it i call it like invisible pr it's like what how you've treated people along the way well and people don't often focus on that because there's other things they might try and focus on but that force that's kind of just making sure people call you when there's the opportunity or they recommend you in a room you're not in.

And that all comes down to everything you've just said there. If I'm honest with you, it's helped me so much in the sense of I've made mistakes along the way. You know, I've made mistakes that have not necessarily been public mistakes. I never say that I'm a perfect person But when I have made those mistakes People that have known me Have supported me You know what I mean So because

You know I've been good I've been good to people Like so You know we live in a world today where You know any minute people can Turn their back on you, any minute people can, you know, cancel you or whatever they want to call it. And that happens day in and day out. Um, so, you know, I feel like, I feel really proud of the fact that I've been as genuine as I can be coming up. If I was one of your kids then,

and I come to you and I say, dad, listen, I want to be an actor. No. Well, no, I couldn't,

I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't tell them no, but I would be worried. Why? Cause it's just hard. It's, it's a hard industry to crack.

Yeah, but you did it dad. Yeah, I did it. I don't know how i'm yet to know what the blueprint is it's tough you know my students at kingdom ask me this all all the time and i'm like all i can teach you is like how to prepare how it's going to happen when it's going to happen or whatever that is like It's an anomaly man That's like It comes when it comes

Right And you just got to be Kind of ready for it At the time But yeah I mean my kids And the worst thing about it is Like most of them probably

Are going to do something In entertainment I can see that So it's going to be tough It's going to be tough for them It's going to be tough it's going to be tough for them it's going to be tough for me um but it is it is a um it is a rocky road and it's a it's a tough life and but i will support them all the way what is that so if i go if i was like that what do you mean

rocky road rocky road meaning you know for years i'd say only in the last 10 years i've been financially stable i've been acting all of my life so not knowing sometimes how i was going to feed my children you know what was going to happen next you know just whether i was coming or going it was just unstable it's just unstable um and the rejection is immense man like you have to be really tough in places when it comes to 80 of it is people just telling you no like this ain't gonna happen you're not gonna be able to do it that's probably not gonna work sorry we don't want you not this time you were great but you know what i'm saying it's like that a lot of the time what people get to see is it is that little 10 that works why didn't you listen to them because i asked you know i spoke to someone close to you

and they told me they said it's funny because earlier on you went i'm not good at you weren't good at saying no to people right because you said you have these people pleaser tendencies when i spoke to people close to you they said you're not good at hearing no either as in if someone says no to you it turns into driving motivation yeah well so why don't you listen to them when all these people rejected you and said no it's not going to work you're not going to be in this movie Or this thing It's kind of thrown me a bit Now I'm thinking about who you spoke to

Yeah, but people in your team, they say that When someone says no to you You can't direct, Ashley Yeah Yeah, yeah yeah i i mean i mean i have that but i'm not like i don't have it in a way of like not in a rude way but it's a motivation it does it does yeah it does you know i stay when i'm silent that's when people should worry about me because you know that's what i'm that's what i'm thinking how to get around you or how to do that thing that you you said i can't do but

when someone says you can't do something ashley walters you can't do that how does that feel i don't like to i mean it doesn't feel good it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good. Especially when I know there's a way, especially when I know that I can, you know, or I believe that I can. I just prefer people to let me try. And if it fails, then we can both agree, maybe it wasn't going to work the way I said it was and we'd try a different way or we don't revisit it um but I need the opportunity to to bring how I feel to to the table and yeah there

have been times where I have accepted like it's not going to work or whatever and I've regretted it after because someone else has come and done it um so i think i've become i've got tougher with that over the years and like the directing thing was one of those things because i was told like you know you can't direct it was my own show that i created it, nah, you haven't got enough experience. Like, yeah, I've watched some of the directors you put on here. Never have they.

I've got more experience than them. I've been, I've been filming since I was like seven. Um, and to hear that is like, you know, it's a kick in the teeth, but I went to, you know, I went to my business partner after that i was like how do we change this and he was like well if you're serious about

it let's make a short film so we're making a short film we want to made a short film got some money from sky made this short film and that came out But I think actually What happened in that process was I liked it I wasn't expecting to like Directing so much At that point it was about You want experience I'm going to get you experience

The best experience That you could possibly have But actually throughout the process I was like no I like this man I enjoy this process um and that's spiraled into me doing more yeah you said you talked about kingdom there um those students that come to you that you mentor that ask you you know you said okay you can't help

them figure out how and when it's going to happen but you can get them prepared what is preparation for the life you've lived uh boy um well i make a i make a i make a point of always saying to them that if you've come here trying to um have my journey you're gonna have to go to prison you know lose your dad this this, that, wherever. I told him all the negative things that's happened. Cause that's what's made me. So I was speaking to Laura about this. I was like,

look, I can't sit there and regret things that have gone wrong because the truth is if they hadn't, if those series of events hadn't happened in the way they happened on the days they happened, I wouldn't be sitting here now. And I wouldn't have all the great things that I have, the kids and this and that any little thing that was different might have changed the whole course of my life so i have to accept that would you erase it would you erase your dad passing going to prison if there's a button in front of you now no i couldn't no really i couldn't well

if i erased that then i might have you know you know like that picture in um in back to the future where he's like he when he's not getting home or something like and his brother starts to fade away his sister starts to feel it's like if i raised that and brought my dad back i might erase like four of my children do you know what i mean actually six degrees of separation you might not be you never know right so um no i couldn't i couldn't you have to you have to live with it and i say this to students it's like so it's not about the journey it's about how you use your journey and more importantly enjoying the journey because i tell you now steven it's not that enjoyable where i am the the the best parts of what i've achieved has been

along the way do you know i mean the people I've met the fun I've had doing things the filming the memories this and that or whatever actually the looking back the challenges the people saying no so what I had to do to get around that to to get there and whatever actually like I think when you clock the game it's like oh I'm not saying I've clocked it but I'm saying I can see with the people That I know That are like in that space Where they've kind of like

There's not much more to do I think it's pretty boring Like I don't envy them You know I don't envy them I may want that Lambo But I don't envy Where they're at yeah

Yeah like you know That space that they're in Because there's nothing Much more to achieve, it feels like. And I'm always like, I have to have a fix. Like, I have to, there has to be something else. Like, I'm very, I can be very fickle like that. Like, I can be very focused and determined and whatever. And now, like, I'm doing this Disney show

and it's like I've shot the Disneyney show and you know i'm editing but i want it to end now because i want to do another show so let me play out this the scenario then ashley it was funny because as you were saying that i was imagining someone coming into your life and saying ashley you can't work for another two years you just got to sit at home but then i remembered we we had that oh yeah the pandemic yeah how did you respond to that not well sitting down is not not good for me you know my wife and i we can't we can rarely go on holiday together because what she wants to do is read books she didn't get to read and lie on sun loungers and stuff and i'm like i can't i can't live like that you know i need to be doing something something's gotta happen or be happening what if it doesn't it's tough for me it's uncomfortable it's uncomfortable what was

the pandemic like in the first couple of weeks sat at home alone nothing can't go to the gym can't move that was tough man that was tough like taking away my work from me and you know all of those all of that talk of me being that hard love to be there more with the kids and love to speak with my wife a lot more whatever i realized that i didn't i i weren't ready for it i weren't ready for 24 hours with my family i wasn't used to it i was always used to having a a release or knowing that all right i'm gonna have this week full on at home but then next week i'm going there i'm doing this i'm doing that so there was always something coming um but yeah it was a it was a struggle it it it opened up a lot

um a lot of things in our relationship definitely i mean me and the missus you know um we dealt with a lot now we argued a lot throughout that period of time it was like it was tough it was a lot of things I didn't realise irritated me you know maybe about her and vice versa you know she realises a lot of things that

irritated her about me I guess because we were spending so much time together if I was to fly on the wall in your household at that time what would i what actually would i have seen um in that first couple of weeks yeah i mean them depressed no they were sad depressed yeah slightly yeah not worried about i mean worried about the state of the game worried about where we was.

I mean, I was one of those people that was worried as if I would, am I going to die? Do you know what I mean? That was like one of my first thoughts. Did you have a breakdown? No, I don't think I had a breakdown. I don't think I had a breakdown. I kind of know where you're, mean there was I had a moment I did have a moment Because I think

I think the pressure The pressure of not Like it was It was hard for me Not to Not to have the choice To work Like it was hard for me

Not to have the choice To do Certain things with my life um you know and um yeah it took it took its toll on me i think i don't know i don't know if i'll go as far as saying i had a breakdown but i was very depressed i was very i was very low i was very low the reason i asked the question is because someone who, I think you remind me of myself in many ways, where I think at some level I'm getting some of my self esteem and some of my self worth from my work.

Like by, by being successful in my work, I think I feel like I'm good in myself to some degree. It's probably an illusion, but it makes me feel that way. It's probably the same reason people buy Lamborghinis. Like it is an illusion it's not going to fill the void but it keeps me stable the chaos keeps me stable um and that's why i ask the questions because it's one of those moments in our lives where for someone like you where your work is requires you to be on sets mine i could still

do from my laptop right but for you you have you have to be on sets and all that stuff shut down we locked down um so how does one because I'm guessing here that you have the same relationship with your work on some level where it makes you feel like you're you're good yeah yeah like you're enough yeah yeah I mean yeah you're right you're hitting on the head I mean yeah you're right you're hitting that on the head I mean I can't I can't articulate it any better I guess that's what happened it stripped a bit of me away and I became a civilian do you know what I mean it was like the the little part of me that made me slightly different to to the people around me had been taken away and I just had to be Ashley and actually sit with my thoughts and deal with my flaws. You'd spent a long time distracting yourself.

Yeah, 100%, but it became evident. I was drinking a little bit too much. I smoked a lot um you know i was burning my nails i know this thing sounds stupid but to me they were like things i'd never been able to conquer um and became more apparent and evident where I had nothing else to do. Sitting with yourself and sitting with your thoughts. How's that for you? It wasn't great.

It wasn't great at the time. I mean, it's not always great now. I'm a strong believer in that. That voice in my head Is a mug He's not the right person For me to be listening to Really? I don't believe anyone

Should listen to voices in their head If I'm honest with you Your head is It's an extension of you right? It's going to be trying to like It's bias It's going to be telling you, majority of the time telling you the shit you want to hear,

you know, telling you stuff that's not really happening, but, you know, trying to justify. I just think, you know. Why is he a mug? That voice in your head. Because he's made me make some terrible decisions, in my opinion. Now, nowadays, I try to quieten the voice as much as possible, right?

And connect. I think that's the most important thing to do. Like if I can, if I'm sitting there thinking something and I don't know the answer, something maybe emotional, something, it's like it makes more sense to call my mum or to call someone else, you know what I mean? Or to speak, to open up to my wife about it and go, what do you think about this? And get someone else's perspective and then make decisions. But I feel like, you know, as emotional creatures as we are as humans

and we, you know, a lot of our, the moves we made make are based on you know emotion anger fear you know jealousy this that whatever i just think you don't you should never be making decisions in that in that frame of mind you know you should always have someone to bounce something off but i just don't think the voice in your head i mean look in my in my opinion um in my life the voice in my head has never been the best voices i've done some some of the most stupid things because i said to myself it's the right thing to do the personality of that voice angry Angry, you said? Yeah. At times.

Look, there's a very vengeful person somewhere inside of me. I believe we've all got that part of us, you know. Some of the things that go through my head sometimes scare me. Because I've been hurt. You know, I've been hurt you know I've been hurt and sometimes it feels like the easiest thing to do is hurt other people but I'm just glad that I have the ability to control those feelings and and to think about things and so kind of always in in any how i can do it move forward with with love and i have a clear understanding that

you know hurt people hurt people so if you can if you can if you can forgive you know you're not you're doing yourself a great favour, first and foremost, if you can forgive. If I can forgive the people that hurt me, right? Do you forgive everybody in your life? I don't think I've got round to forgiving everyone. I think I do carry a lot of baggage, but I'm working on it. You know, I'm working on it.

And I'm working on making amends with other people as well that maybe don't forgive me you know um but what i do know is the people that maybe i don't forgive they've probably forgotten who i am you know but i'm sitting there thinking about them all the time and it's like so who's really hurt you're hurting yourself yeah that's the nature isn't it of holding the grudges which we will do but it just it does nothing no damage to the other person does it i remember reading that quote one day and it was like forgiving someone is like letting a prisoner go and realizing in doing so that you were the prisoner the whole time like you can imagine opening the gates to the jail and seeing yourself run out yeah yeah yeah we're going fuck yeah i was only hurting myself you said something quite

curious though which gave me a train of thought which is sometimes i just want to speak to my my wife danielle about it now speaking to your wife about it when i think about the other points you've given me about not being like growing up the way you did, emotion not coming naturally to you. I'm guessing you're like me in some respects where, because I, having the kind of conversations that you need to have to keep a woman in your life, don't come naturally to me either. I don't, I still don't even call my parents by, I never called my parents mum or dad. I just don't, I didn't have that affection growing up so if you don't build the ability to communicate in a certain way and to listen in a certain way and show emotion in a certain way you have no chance of being in a loving committed relationship and getting all the benefits of that what journey have you been on with like

because it's funny because i was thinking about that moment where you're locked down together and the war and much of the war is like either one person or two people that don't know how to communicate properly. Yeah, that was the war. The war was because Dan is like, she's the most loving, caring, tactile sort of person I've ever met in my life. Like to the point that when I first met her, when I first met her, no, when we first started dating,

I met her a long time before we started dating, right? When we first started dating and I met her family and I saw how her family are together. Like it made me sick. And I know now that was, it was jealousy. Cause I just never, I love my mum and I know my mum loves me,

but we can go without talking for two weeks. We're not all over each other hugging. Do you know what I mean? Like we just have that really clean relationship right yeah yeah yeah it's like that like um whereas dan's family was completely different i'd come home you know to the to to the flat and they'll all be lying on the sofa together like lying in each other's laps Her

Her brother's Her mum Or whatever Then her dad would come out Of the kitchen Oh you alright Ash Whatever It's just like this whole

And in the beginning I was like Oh This is grating on me Like I I can't I can't deal with this This is weird

You know That was my first reaction This is weird But I've learnt to love it. I've become a part of that family. And I've learned to realize that I want some of that. I wanted some of that.

You know, I wanted some of that. It doesn't make me love my, like, family any less. But it's nice to get some of that loving like some of that you know physical stuff um so yeah that's where dan comes from so her side of the street is always like i'm like strap your boots up something's gone wrong how do we solve it it's getting cracking and she wants to be like i want to talk about what went wrong and not do anything about it and i just can't understand like sometimes we're like chalk and cheese i'm just like you want to sit there for an hour telling me. How you feel. How you feel. And I don't get that.

And I do have to, like, I need to understand that more. Slowly but surely. Like, I'm getting there. Slowly but surely I will. I'll come a step closer, but I'm quite, you know, I can be quite cold as a husband. And it doesn't, that doesn't work with her. And she's a feisty woman as well so she's not scared

to tell you it reminds me of myself and my relationship but at the same time i know that that's exactly what i need because imagine if i was in a relationship with someone like me it would be all too one way so it's it's almost like the other person is a counterbalance and they're pulling a side out of me that's actually beneficial for me and i've seen it's beneficial for me but i ain't giving it willingly yeah yeah yeah i'll be yeah i'm kicking and screaming okay i'll kick it and scream it she's gonna be cracking up at this because i don't even know whether she understands that i know that's how i am and so you know but i do i get it and i struggle i struggle with it but it's something that i like you know on a daily basis i'm just trying to

to give it more and you're right you're completely right it's like it helps me in everything else that i'm doing kind of bringing that side of me out do you have any ideas why where that came from I guess in one respect I think about it in my own context I go I never learned that no one ever told me that so it's like alien behavior but there is a part of me that at a deep level I feel uncomfortable with it like there's something about when my girlfriend wants to sit down for an hour and talk about how she's feeling and the situation we're in and stuff where i kind of get a bit of an allergic reaction to it and i kind of want to run and i kind of just want to like what can i do to fix it now like do you know i mean what can i press buy say just to end it to fix it because i had something about me feels uncomfortable sharing my emotions.

Is it a defense thing in me? You know what I'm saying? Like, is it, or did I just not learn how to do it? Or is it both? I think it's a combination of both. Like, I know for me, I definitely haven't learned

how to do that. I don't know how to, I was saying it to a friend yesterday i was like because he was like he was talking about his wife and stuff and like she she's working now and he's not working and her job finishes at like two in the morning she gets home about three and then she wants to tell him about her day whilst they're in bed and he's like he doesn't want to hear it because it makes him feel like he wants to go and beat up her boss because you know the stuff that she's telling him is like so he gets angry about it and it's like starts to hold resentments or whatever

But he keeps his mouth shut And I said I can't do that Because what happens with me is I cannot just listen Do you know what I mean? I've worked that out now It burns me to keep my mouth shut

Because I want to solve it for you. You're a fixer. Yeah, I'm a fixer. I feel like that's what I need to do. There's no world where I feel like you're telling me something just for me to listen to it. Like, that's crazy to me. So I feel like when you're telling me something

it's like all right so you want me to you know you could be just saying i walked down the street i fell over or whatever and you know that happened like last week or whatever i'm like so should we book an appointment do you need to should we x-ray your foot like i need to do something And I think the The key to You know but that's My mum was Has been like that You know my mum was Shut up How are you going to fix it

Ah so you learned Be quiet What You know what I mean What's your next steps How are you going to make this You want to go there Write me a business plan

That's what I went through In my life So your life communication was For How are you going to make this? You want to go there? Write me a business plan. That's what I went through in my life. So your communication was for the precursor to take some action. Yeah. It wasn't as a way to connect. Yeah. It weren't about, so let's sit down and just talk about each other's days. I was like.

God, that must be difficult. In terms of like, if I'm Danny, your partner, and she comes from that background, she must have taken her a lot of work to understand you that it's not that you don't love her. It's none of that. Because that's how that must feel, that coldness. Shall I be honest with you? Yeah, please.

It feels like that to her now. I don't think she understands yeah i mean i'm i'm hoping somewhere deep down she does because she's still rocking with me have you told her though have you told her this because i feel like you probably find it easier to talk to me than to say to her about the sort of person that i am yeah all of the stuff you said like you said today yeah i mean we've done a lot of we do a lot of work on it we're in counseling you know we're in counseling um every week and we discuss it you know we talk about it i don't think i think the issue has been up until that point being in a room where someone's slightly mediating and

helping to pull things out of you i haven't felt comfortable enough to be honest with her you know personally um but i think that's happening more now and there's ways you know we're learning ways to kind of talk about issues that we have with each other and you're a dad now so you've got kids so you must think about how that sort of generational cycle you talked about with your father you've got kids so you must think about how that sort of generational cycle you talked about with your father then you is then going to play out in the next generation 100 yeah i mean you know i carry a lot of fear for that because it hasn't gone great with all of my children you know i don't have the greatest relationship with all of my kids especially my older ones um you had you had those when you were 17 those kids at 17 18 years old yeah

um you went to jail at 19 years old so you were absent for much of that period yeah a lot of the first bits of their life and then when i wasn't i was out you know i was touring i was me doing music and then i was acting and then and then i mean if i'm honest with you a lot of the other other times like i didn't i didn't care enough i didn't and i cared about them i loved my children but i didn't want the the adult responsibilities that came with it and i didn't want the adult responsibilities that came with it and I didn't want to sacrifice, you know, what I needed to do in order to give to them. So for a long period of time, I was like,

I was not there in the way that I should be. And I know that I fell. I'm slightly paying the price for that I should be. And I know that I feel I'm paying, I'm slightly paying the price for that now. What is the price for that? Is, I feel like there's a slight distance between me and my older kids. You know, there's a lack of trust there

and feeling sometimes like, you know, why didn't they come to me yeah about that yeah yeah you know yeah that's for me to that's a dad thing to it's a dad conversation to have um and as well i think i passed on my my distant kind of ways to them so you know as much as like when we're together we have an amazing time and whatever but they don't call me that much you know um i think it's the same with me my dad i think uh we never really had a close relationship and i think he probably had the same with his father and i have the same with him and my fear is how that translates downwards to the next generation um but me and my father i wouldn't say we're like he knows what's going on in my life other than him listening to this there isn't like the phone call to update him or anything. So I can relate.

Top Boy. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy how that all played out. Yeah. Yeah. It's been an amazing journey, you know. Never, never thought it would actually,

when we were shooting the first season i remember kane looking at me and going are they gonna put this are they gonna put this on tv because the subject matter you know some of the things we were we was in the process it was in we're shooting that scene where we cut off um sway's finger in the market in summer house and we were literally looking at each other like channel four gonna put this on tv we've never seen anything on tv like it at the time but you know cut from that to to where we are today one of the biggest shows on netflix one of our biggest kind of exports from the UK globally. And, you know, people walking down the street and people just hearing Deshane from every angle of London.

It's crazy. You know, it changed my life. Changed my life changed my life in hindsight you see what how big of an opportunity it was but when

someone approached you with that and that you saw the script and you saw the role you'd be playing in it you must not have

had an idea that it was gonna what did you think I didn't do you know do you want to know why I did it right

because because like literally months before I'd said to my agent, I said, look, I'm sick of just being a bad boy. I can't keep on playing these same roles. All I'm getting is, after I'd done Bullet Boy, I was just getting the same scripts over and over again. You've been typecasted. Typecast, yeah yeah and i was like

i'm not you know i've done a bit of research i'd watched like videos of other actors like black american actors have been in the same position and other people that and i just said look i have to be willing not to work but i want to be seen for other roles like I want to be um and she she she made me know she was like look you may not get any work for a while that means like no money no this and that and I was like so be it so that kind of that situation came about but then the top boy script came I remember not too long after having that conversation and for the first time for me reading that script I was like wow it felt like like goodfellas scarface like all of those shows those films that I've grown up on that were very violent don't get me wrong but behind it all there was some structure

and hierarchy it was the first time that i'd seen black organized crime not looking like a bunch of crazy kids with hoodies just doing crazy shit and not having no you know with no sense it was like i read characters that were human that i finally was like i saw the people behind the hood i understood why they was doing what they was doing or what their motivation was for whether i agreed agreed with it or not um and i saw a character in the shane that was like aspired for greater, like he wanted to change the face of the game. You know, his initial intention was that I can do this. I'm going to be the best at it, right?

But along the way, I'm not going to hurt people. I'm going to feed everyone, you know? And he was like, you know, that entrepreneurial kind of, it was like there within the script and within the character. And that was like, it turned me. So like literally months after going, I ain't doing no more of these roles or whatever, that script coming, I was like, yeah, I'm doing this one though.

And that's what made me, that's what made me do it. And there was no hesitation? Once I've read it, no. Once I read, I read any anything like it and you gotta imagine i was reading loads of like when i say everything i read was about a black boy from inner city london that was a drug dealer or was stabbing someone or was shooting someone or whatever it's like loads of different like iterations of the same character right and when i read that just stood out for me it was something different i knew that there was

something different about it but i'd had no idea that it would cut through the way it did channel four just didn't do a third series right they stopped um at two series why was that i couldn't figure i couldn't figure that out from rummaging and reading yeah i mean you're not the only one who can't figure it out i mean i i think over the years because i've been asked that so much right and i've learned or created scenarios that could have happened. Oh, okay. Right? So I don't know. But I do think there was a change of guard around the time that it was,

the third season should have been commissioned. Yeah. And I feel like when that happens, ideas need to change in order for the new person to feel like they're not living off the coattails of what the last person created that was successful and usually it's the most successful thing that gets the axe then because there's nothing that you know i can't take the credit for this success um so i feel like that might have been a reason why or maybe there just wasn't the the space there at the time for them to take it where it needed to go to the next level but either way like we discussed before so good that it happened that way right and it had that space to just not be

around and for people to want it back for so many years before we got into the new situation why did it come back in your view um i think it timing wise when it was on channel four it landed at such a pivotal time just in london and for culture and you know coincided with like your you know the real kind of social media kind of push and all of that stuff so i think it was kind of cemented in people's minds. And I think it was like the first of its kind really to, you know, to do what it did. So I think that,

that having that fan base, that key kind of niche sort of fan base, cult fan base kept it alive. And then I think. It translated as well, didn't it? Really interestingly, because a lot of the,

the work at that time that was one on the surface might think was similar, those stories of, you know, like of London and young black men and crime and all of that stuff, they didn't translate well globally. They didn't cross over to like different audiences and in the same way that for some reason, Top Boy just crossed over.

And maybe it's because of that complexity and how thought through the plots and storylines and characters are. And it wasn't just surface level shit. Like a lot of the other stuff was like stereotypical surface level. Yeah, it was humans on the page. And what happened, you walk away from the,

like you root for these characters no matter what they're doing like and that's because they're 3d and so you understand kind of what's going on in their heads i think we from the beginning we've always incorporated um what's going on outside of that world like you know like the you know i think in like season one on channel four it was like mental health you know there was a lot of other issues that we were throwing in there like um you know with the little kid gem soul just kind of his family structure and neglect from his parents and stuff like that there was other things that kind of we we talked about um that you just didn't get in the other shows and

then we had i mean a big big a big part of this puzzle was yan yan dimanche um because he's a filmmaker he's a very cinematic well versed kind of filmmaker that knows how to get brilliant performances out of people and remember maybe 90% of our cast

in that first season had never acted before. Crazy. So you needed someone at the helm driving that, that had a clear understanding of how to get great performances out of people that hadn't had that much experience

and also shoot a beautiful TV show. What do you have to do to get the best performance out of yourself? Do you have any rituals or anything when you know you're going on set? Is there anything that you do to get the best performance out of yourself? Do you have any rituals or anything when you know you're going on set? Is there anything that you do to embody the character? And to also just get yourself in the right frame of mind? I have no set of rules,

but I'm open to being willing to do what it takes for any given. It's different every time. You know, I've had characters where I've gone into play that I'm like, I don't even know if I can do this. So I'm shit scared. So I will do everything. Like I'm not eating. I'm a mover.

Don't speak to people that i love like you know this was for a role where i played like um an alcoholic like crack addicted like character i stopped eating food you know i needed to lose the weight i needed to feel homeless so i kind of put myself in a situation where I left my household and I slept on a mattress in a one-bedroom kind of apartment thing and like really pushed myself to the limits because sometimes I like I don't know how else I'm going to do something like just being able to act isn't enough like I need to feel it. Like I need to, you know. And then there's other times where I'm like, actually I don't need to do that much.

Like I know this person like quite well. You know, I need to be well versed on who that character is, what their backstory is so I can be free like when I'm in the moment. But, you know know i'm just i'm not one of these guys that have like a set of rules and a lot of the time i believe less is more you know i don't want to be over prepared because then i feel like there's no vulnerability, you know? So it gets picked up by Netflix. Yeah.

And it becomes a mega, mega show, one of their biggest shows of all time. Life changes for you hugely. You go on this journey for another two seasons on Netflix and then you have one final season on its way. How do you feel about that? It's bittersweet. What's the bitter and what's the sweet? It's bitter that some of the people on that show

that I've worked with the whole time and been doing it, I like my family, you know? And actually, I know we've discussed this, the type of person I am.

I'm not going to see them that much after, right? It was our reason for connection. So what happens in this world, you move on, you make other families, you develop other relationships. So I worry about like losing those connections a bit. You look sad as you say it.

I can see the emotion in your face yeah it's that's a bit of thing for me it's like remember you spend more time with these people than you do with your actual family you know you invest so much into them and so it's tough i mean and and i mean if i'm honest with you the last film in the last season brought me and Kane probably even closer than we've ever been kind of doing that show because we didn't have the greatest time, you know, fighting for what we believed in and making it the best show that we could make it be, you know, the best last season for the fans. Like, people don't understand, like, we go hard for that show. We go hard to make sure the scripts are right. We go hard to make sure other characters are being represented in the way they should be and storylines make sense and whatever.

And the truth is we faced a lot of resistance this time around you know we wasn't given the creative input all the time that we desired and this is like a common thing you know this happens behind the scenes so this is not me being a you know a grass or anything it's just like it's the reality and sometimes you know when there's seven execs eight execs not everyone agrees and you've got to you know you have to it's business like it's the reality sometimes you know when there's seven execs eight execs not everyone agrees and you've got to you know you have to it's business you've been there right you know how it goes yeah so it was it was tough we went through a tough experience we haven't been through before um and that brought us closer together so it's even harder knowing that this

is the last time because we developed another level to our relationship where I was like, ah, as businessmen, like we're a team as well. You know what I mean? You know, but the sweet thing about it, if you want to make, you know, end on a positive is that I've got my life back. You know, I mean mean to a certain extent you know deshane is a very popular character um but when i say life back meaning i can pursue other avenues um you know contractually i was tied down to that show for for a long time you know that's how it works. And it'd be nice to see what else is out there, what else I can do,

where I can take my career. You scared a little bit? I was just going to say that. Yeah. I was going to say it's also scary because that was,

to get that stability in the acting game is very rare. You know, usually if you want that sort of stability with a show or whatever, then you have to, you have to go and do a soap, you know,

don't really get it from like drama like that. So yeah, it's been nice. It's been good for the family. It's been good for me to focus on just being an artist and enjoying what i do rather than worrying about mortgages and you know other stuff but um but yeah been a brilliant time did you win the fight when i say the fight you in um you two were fighting to have the show be the way you want it

to be are you happy with how it's ended up this final season yeah yeah i mean look i wouldn't say necessarily that we won but i think the process of pushing back and fighting for what you're believing always without doing that i don't think we would have got to where we got to i think that you the push and pull that happens within that process is what makes the show as good as it is you'll never be able to see the impact it's had on young people's lives all around the world and perceptions shifting all of these things but if you were to try and define that what is the impact you think the show has had

on culture on the world exactly that i think um i think if i can define it it will be i had a i had a i had a meeting today um with like a uh nigerian um a nigerian man that owns like a record label a very famous record label right and and production company um and we sat down today and we was talking and he was like thank you because it's made his job a lot easier you know I had the same conversation with gigs who spends a lot of time in the States And he was like I don't have to explain myself anymore When I go out there Like around the world

They now because of the show They kind of know where I come from You know so When it comes to marketing Or whatever Do you know what I mean Like announcing yourself When you go somewhere

Into a new territory or whatever It's like there is an association For them to have or whatever, do you know what I mean? Like announcing yourself when you go somewhere into a new territory or whatever, it's like there is an association for them to have. And I think that's what the show has done. It's kind of taken us from cups of tea and biscuits and period drama and maybe Notting Hill or whatever, you know, stuff like that, to the rest of the world kind of understanding that you know and there's another side to what we we have and i think as a foundation

as a way of opening the door into the international market accepting what we export sport i think is really good i think now from here we should push on into telling black stories um that don't necessarily have to be from the same world as top boy you know there should be black detectives there should be black superheroes there should be black you know we can the boundaries are you know they're endless but i think that it's open it's really opened the door internationally for like people trusting in in what we give them um we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question in my diary for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for sick the question in the diary left for you is you've got one phone call left to your

children what do you say to them probably probably uh oh oh shit what I always say to my kids when I leave the house don't eat my chicken wings oh my god nah

on a real note it would be I know it's cliche but it would be that I love you you be, I know it's cliche, but it would be that I love you. You know, and I think that's, I didn't tell my dad that

before he left. yeah, we didn't, you know, we didn't have those conversations and he didn't tell me that, not in,

not using those words. And, um, I'm assuming that this last conversation would probably be the last time that I see them. So I'd want them to know that. Um, yeah. Ashley.

Yes, sir. I can't wait. I can't wait for, to see this last season um i share that excitement with everybody else that's listening right now and thank you for creating a piece of art over the years and fighting for that piece of art with um to hope to keep its integrity and to keep the resonance that it's had with everybody that's consumed it um even when it's easier not

to and i can i understanding you i understand why that fight was so important for you. And I'm exceptionally excited because of your experiences and because of that take on your art form that you've developed over the last two, three decades to watch your directing career continue to play out. I know you're working on some incredible things at the moment.

I know you've been working very, very hard on those things. That's a conversation for another time. But if it's anything like a lot of the art you've created in your life and it has that perspective that integrity and that personality I think it's going to have equal impact on the world that Top Boy and all of the other projects you've been involved in over the last two and a half decades have had on people that is a really really special thing and as thing. And as I say, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving individual, in my opinion. I think it's weird to have this feeling that I'm so happy you've had this in your life. And I'm so excited to see what plays out for you. I know it's going to be something special because although you talk about talent, I'm not quite convinced that it's just a God- God given talent alone. I think there's a ton of hard work,

dedication, perfectionism, love, craft, dedication, kindness, people skills. I think there's a lot of perspective.

I think there's a lot of hardship. There's a lot of rebounding. There's a lot of rejection that you've had to overcome to get here. Um, and that's a very, um, a very admirable thing that we can all be inspired by and that we are. So thank you,

Ashley. Thank you for taking the time and thank you for your generosity thank you man thank you for having me being so good to be here Bye.