The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Bear Grylls: Man VS Failure, Anxiety & Imposter Syndrome

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Bear Grylls is a British adventurer and television host who has been an international sensation of survival shows for twenty years. The host of Man vs. Wild, You vs. Wild, Running Wild, The Island, and the author of Mud, Sweat and Tears and over twenty other books, he’s come in to talk to us about his new book - Never Give Up. Bear has always told himself a story about himself that he’s ‘resilient’, he’s pushed through the toughest challenges the world has to offer - from climbing Everest to surviving in the desert - because he’s told himself he’s the type of person who survives. But now, he reflects to us about the costs of that mentality, and where it leaves you when you come up short. Bear’s new book is a follow-up to his smash-hit bestseller Mud, Sweat and Tears. He’s spent five years writing it, written every single word himself, and shares some lessons from his life he’s never felt comfortable sharing before. It was a pleasure to read, and a pleasure to speak to him in my kitchen. Follow Bear: Twitter - https://twitter.com/BearGrylls  Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/beargrylls Bear’s book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Give-extraordinary-autobiography-phenomenon/dp/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue just because you're determined doesn't mean everything's gonna go well those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you? I'm Bear Grylls, and I've learned how to survive on some of the most hostile terrains on the planet. You really fascinate me for a number of reasons that I actually never knew before I started digging into your story. You certainly had a lot of demons. In the early days of TV especially,

there was so much pressure to go and do that and do the extra episode. You end up burning the things that are most valuable. To be successful you have to sacrifice but maybe you reach one way enough's enough. Selection for the Special Forces is all about heart and spirit and we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent, that's a muscle that builds with walking through the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up. When was your darkest moment? One was when I broke my back and was in rehabilitation for a long time.

And, you know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved and suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom with that excruciating agony. And it was just, what am I going to do with my life? When is there a time to give up? job I loved and suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony and it was just a what am I going to do with my life. When is there a time to give up? So without further ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this to yourself. Ben I want to start where I usually start which is near the start and one of the things you said

was you certainly had a lot of demons the quote the exact quote is I was never short of demons when I read that I thought what do you what do you mean? Growing up, I really struggled with confidence, you know, definitely when I was at school. And I think so much of the school culture still to this day, you know, it definitely tends to celebrate the, you know, the guy who's academic or sporty or good looking or just a cool guy, you know, and those are the currency of school. But as you and me know, it's those are the currency of school but as you and me know it's not always

the currency of life and but you try and tell a kid who who maybe isn't sporty or academic who's just kind and and does his best you know that actually those things have much more value in life and it's kind of hard to believe but certainly for me I didn't I didn't have I wasn't the sportiest or the most academic or the cool guy um and I think it took me a while to find an identity and actually this is what you know it's what I love and it's nothing kind of brilliant but but I love it and for me growing up it was always climbing with my dad you know he'd been a he'd been a commando and and loved all of that sort of stuff and for me growing up it was always you know that's what I love to do just just have many adventures with him and I think it took a while to learn that that's okay you know my dad

was always saying you've got to find something you really love and try and be kind to people along the way and be resilient you know have that dog and never give up attitude and that that's that's the key things for life and uh but it's hard to believe that as a kid and sometimes if you get a bit lost in the system um so I suppose what I meant is it took me a while to find the confidence you know and it's still a journey I think we're all on you know I think success doesn't always answer those sort of questions and I think confidence has to come from in here and it's often the opposite of what we think it is when we're growing up you know confidence is quiet and I think that's where that's kind of what I meant. When you say confidence what how do you define

confidence because some people think of confidence as this like overt external expression of like self-assurance what did you mean when you said I didn't have confidence and it's still an ongoing battle what is that I think it's not what the world always thinks like you say you know we always have this thing of confidence as you say it's this unstoppable I can do anything you know I think um life is always humbling you know in every way just like the wild you know the mountains are humbling you know the the real things in life are humbling so you remind us that you know it's often a battle and you know you've got to sometimes put your head down and do your best and you're going to fail and you're going to struggle you're going to have doubts and you're going to have self-doubt and but but try try and get to your feet and keep going. And I think that is confidence. You know, confidence is the quiet stuff

and the honesty to say this is a struggle, but let's go, you know, let's do our best. I love that thing of the scouts, you know, do your best, you know, which is so smart because I think so much of the world is about be the best, you know, win, number one, you know, which is so smart because I think so much of the world is about be the best, you know, win, number one, you know, but actually that doesn't always stand the pressure test of time and of life

and of going for big things that are always going to be humbling. And I think the thing of do your best, you know, it's dip, dip, dip, you know, D-Y-V, do your best. I love that because wherever you're at, you can do that, you know it's dib dib dib you know dyv do your best I love that because wherever you're at you can do that you know it's a decision isn't it's not a gift it's not something we're born with like the looks or the academic or the sport something you've got to summon

and uh I like that what were the symptoms of having a lack of confidence when you were that age what would it look like? How did it manifest itself? I think probably just being quite shy. And I think you see the people at school always, the bigger personalities. And it was always like, gosh, you've got to be like that to get anywhere. And it's a life journey, isn't it? To realise it's almost the opposite.

It's almost the opposite. It's almost the opposite. You know, the quiet, the persevering, relentlessly trying to pick yourself up through the failures and keep going and know the wealth of life. The wealth is always found in our relationships. And, you know, you come across people who are rich in friendships and, you know, rich in passion and love what they do and love the people they work with and you know and that's enough that's wonderful but it

takes a bit of unlearning doesn't it of saying you know you don't have the people not always to look up to aren't always the front and center and as I get older I see more and more heroes left right and send we're more left and right rather than center you know and I love that I sort of see it in people and uh you know I see it in our camera crew I mean look at look at what's been a core part of my job for however many years many years now you know the filming and stuff and you know the focus is always on the person in front of screen and and you know that horrible word of talent, as they call it. I never felt very talented. Still don't.

Still feel I'm surrounded by way more talented people. But life isn't a competition about who's more talented. It's a journey to take with great friends. And I look at our camera crew and to me, true heroes. They work harder. They carry heavier weights. Unsung. Rel relentlessly positive carry me many times you know in so many ways encourage me when when I've been struggling and I look at them and still brothers and sisters best friends to this

day I think it's probably the thing I'm most proud of in my career, actually, are the friendships with our crew. You know, in an industry that is notoriously transient, you know, people have crew come, crew go, new crews, you know, but we've kept pretty well the core crew from the beginning. And part of it's that we're obviously working in difficult, dangerous terrain and you forge stronger bonds than you would in a shiny studio. But part of it's that the loyalty really matters, goes both ways.

And I love that. You said that you kind of have a bit of an allergic reaction to the word talent, right? Just from a few other things that you said in that little opener, I wondered if you relate at all to the phrase imposter syndrome at all because you're someone who's the world has this image of you as being this like unbelievable mountain scaling fearless adventurer and even you talking about a lack of confidence doesn't seem to fit into that narrative that the world must hold a view so have you ever felt what they

call imposter syndrome at all would you ever do yeah i think so because i'm going because it probably grows you know the more you know the more sort of something does well you know we you know we did we did the show this year for netflix called you versus wild you know and we just got the news you know this morning we got nominated for three emmys for it and the crew go baby she's so excited but part of my heart dies part of me is like oh it's like that gulf between the the sort of tv sort of you know guy and then the real it gets bigger you know and I feel from day one I felt I almost had more confidence I think in my skills at the beginning. I think as the years have gone on, I've realized, actually,

I've often been surrounded by people who are better climbers, better skydivers, better survival guys, better looking, fitter, stronger, all of these things, just because we've built a crew of ninjas, of true heroes, and, you know, got to work with people and locals and experts all around the world year after year. And I think more and more I feel these guys are those that person we met there or that person they are amazing be much better at the job than me but you know like I say our job isn't to be the best you know it's to do

our best and and you know for some reason I've been given this this the chance to do this it's what I've always loved I love the adventures I. I love, like I say, the friendships and, you know, the job we do. And I think you can only ride that and be grateful for it. And like I say, do your best and not worry too much about how the TV makes it always look. I mean, the truth is the TV always puts the best bits. They cut out the trips and the stumbles and you put anything to music

and the guy's going to look cool, you know. But I think an element to why the show worked when we first started doing it is that we did show a lot of the mistakes and it was kind of the slips and the stumbles and the ums and the ahs. And I remember from day one, the producer that came to me and said,

we want to do this show where we drop you in the middle of difficult places and you show us how to get out of there and and and I kept saying no because I didn't want to do tv I didn't know about tv and I was like and you know but you kept saying we don't want that it doesn't need to be perfect and I've and it was my wife that said why don't you go and try it you know and I just left the military we just got married we were kind of starting out and she was smart she said go and try it and actually it's never felt like making a perfect thing I think the magic at that time it was the first show that came along that let all the mud be on the lens and the rain on the lens and the trips and the stumbles you saw the cameraman's hand and it

would come there was a sort of interactivity that was that was great and I've always felt if it's not broke don't fix it the stumbles the trips the struggles the the mistakes are part of life uh but the part of my heart that dies is because it all makes it look too good or too you know because at the end of the day I'm a really regular guy I'm a regular dad as well you know I'm not I'm not brilliant at any of these things but I I know what I love and I know the weapons that serve me best and the weapons are always this you know be dogged be determined be the most resilient person out there when it's hard you know come alive in the

big moments when it's not the big moments you don't need to be front and center but in the big moments be there I watched a lot of interviews of you before you you arrived here today and I think in pretty much all of them you said I'm a normal guy I'm a regular guy and I get that I get that I understand what you're saying however well it's not false modesty I don't want I'm not gonna let people builds builds me into something I'm not you know and I think as I get older I know the frailties more and more and I'm not ashamed of them. Do you know what I mean?

It's okay. Many mistakes, many struggles. It's okay. Otherwise things become all too, you know, it's hard to relate to, you know? But you got through SAS selection. Just. I got through all these hit just, you know.

And people turned to you and said things and as they turned back and quit, right? That for me is a filtering process of something. Whatever that something is. All it is is something we can control. It's not a filtering of talent. It's not filtering of you're brilliant. You're through, you're not through.

You know, it's a genius of selection for the special forces. It's all about heart and spirit. And we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent. That's a muscle that builds with walking through the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up. You know, so I like that. It's why I say I am an ordinary person.

It's why I also say just to so many things because, you know, yes, I've passed that. Or yes, you reach the top of this mountain. Or yes, you do. But it's always just. And that's okay, you know. And it's also often by standing on the shoulders of many giants who have helped me, you know, many, many times, you know, if I think of SS selection, you know, that time there were so many times where somebody somebody just kind of believed me in a critical time you know it might be something where two corporals running something good we want that guy doing you know a bit of luck falls on his side somebody backs you you know or you know you you I don't know just the more I look back on so many so-called achievements the more I see the hand of good people in critical moments. But

as you know, you have to win the hearts of those people in the first place. But also the role of just that dogged determination to keep going. And that's not a thing of being brilliant. It's just trying to keep going, often sliding another step back, but keep moving forward. And you say that to you know I've got three boys now three teenagers and I think if you said to them what one thing does your dad say to you day after day before you go to school it's always just you know don't give up don't never give up be kind you know be determined never give up and they roll their eyes but you know what one day they'll know that it's a key

thing of key thing of life you know you don't have to be the best to do your best did that resilience muscle as you call it grow over time of course it's like it's like everything it's like the little little seas to the mighty oaks you know we how do we build it just inch by inch and uh and that's a great thing because it's not something only some people can have you know it's universal for us all we can all become people think it's a god-given gift to someone be resilient resilience is that muscle and you build it by failing and trying to stay positive and trying to get back your feet and going again you know I look back and I remember being uh really excited about being picked for the fourth 11 football team as a linesman it wasn't even in

the team you know and it was like my job was to bring on the oranges at half time you know but it was like and I remember my dad was the only dad on the side of the pitch cheering me on I thought so embarrassing he's not I'm not even in the team and dad said you know he's come to kind of but actually those little steps of like I'm gonna do this I'm gonna bring on those oranges you know you're never gonna forget it's gonna be great and it's incremental tiny little things but having to fight for things you know so how often do we see at school though the the school hero actually in life doesn't always do that brilliantly and why is that it's because they've got you know schools rewarded that but they've never tested this you know where little johnny who doesn't have that

doesn't get the awards is a linesman brings on the oranges yeah whatever it is struggles doesn't even get noticed never wins anything but never gives up and keeps doing his best and still doesn't really get noticed but doesn't matter but when he leaves school this might not be the biggest thing but this is like ninja like you know that that resilience muscle inside is strong and as you know and as i know in life that's the one that is gonna carry you further and and the unseen people at school often do better in life it's like don't peak too early don't peak at 14 I certainly didn't I sat here with um you bank I've been thinking about this idea of resilience and what it really means and as we sit here today my current hypothesis is basically resilience is

the story it's kind of this contract you have with yourself, this self-story about who you are. And in those moments when no one is looking, I was talking to Eubank about me being on the running machine and knowing I've got two minutes to go. Because I said before I started, I'd run until 45 minutes. But my legs are hurting and they're cramping and I could give up and walk away and no one's going to know because no one's here. But what I, I alter my own self story in a way. And I send a message to myself that I am the type of person that gives up when it's tough. So is it really, do you relate to that? And it's kind of like you're crafting this story about who you are to yourself with every small decision you make. Doing the linesman job, you said, I'm going to do it the best i possibly can and although it's not what i wanted i'm gonna i'm gonna give it everything i can and not give up yeah yeah does that relate and also i think the thing of giving up is that you know what is it's that thing of

temporary pleasure long term yeah that's not you know and and for me i just i developed this thing where whenever people were quitting or complaining, I liked those moments. For me, it was like, okay, there's all the chat and the bravado. It's always there at the beginning. Everyone's full of that. But bring it down. Put the squeeze on.

You know, we're like grapes. Squeeze this. You see what's inside. Bring the squeeze. Bring the squeeze. Now we see characters. We see what people are like. And for me, it just became whenever I saw people quitting or complaining,

especially complaining, you see it so much as in the military, you see it on big expeditions, you see it even when we're filming TV shows, when it gets hard and you're hungry and you're scared and you're up against it and you're dehydrated. Those are the moments. And for me, it just became a trigger. When everyone's complaining and giving up, it's a time to give more.

You don't have to give more in the early times. Just wait until it's. And that's how you separate yourselves in business and in life and in relationship, you know, in the big moments, you know, look at a relationship when it's when you're under that real tone, everyone's throwing it, you know, are you going to really throw that nasty comment or kind of hold it and just try and be gracious and kind in those big moments you know and and i like that it wasn't you know it wasn't complicated to think about under pressure it was just like when everything's going wrong that's the time to give more rather than give up and i held on to that in many difficult moments you know across many different arenas and um and it's helped me you, I remember this guy said to me once,

and you can do anything for another 10 seconds. I like that. You know, when you're in that moment, you keep going, another 10 seconds. That makes you different though. You've got to admit, because most people don't want another 10 seconds. Yeah.

Well, it hurts. I'm not saying it's not going to hurt. It's going to hurt. But that fire inside saying it's not going to hurt it's going to hurt but that fire inside said it's in us in us all you know it's just you've got to dig sometimes but it's it's a great truth to know that it's there when you dig you know it's there and uh and i think as you say once you get used to this you start to practice it the muscle gets stronger and then you almost seek out tough times you know this is a chance to to shine you know and as you say that's how you separate yourselves in life you know you're going

to reach these points but but in those big what are you going to go this way how are you going to act in those big moments and it's always what separates you know reaching those summits for not reaching those summits never give up it's the name of your latest book when is there a time to give up because there is a wildly believed i think social phrase which is like quitting is for losers right but some i want to look at my own life in my own career quitting has played quite an important role sometimes in leaving a situation that wasn't good so when should we give up well that's called wisdom and it comes with experience and there's always there's always a right first of all my 16 year old nephew came to me the other

day i said i said bev you need a not the smoking on the head you're smoking a lot at the moment he went but ever since i have a kid you told me never give up i said apart from the cigarettes you know there's always a time to give things and some and experience and wisdom you know you just don't want to be a pig-headed head in the dirt you know that's not smart that's not smart you know intuition and experience has to know when hold on this is this isn't maybe the right route let's just take a step back and i think it's why so often great mountaineers are often a little bit older because they have that patience and that judgment and when you're young and you don't care and you kind of

maybe should be listening to that intuition and maybe the weather's changed or something's happening that's saying hold you know and you go and you die it's why why so many high-tude mountaineers death is that that you know relentless ability not to adapt or change your plan, where with age you have that ability to listen to your instinct, to the mountains, to the circumstances, and maybe adapt and maybe change. And as we know, with big mountains, they'll always be there. So I think that ability to life, to listen to that,

and to amend and to adapt is super important and look at soldiering same as always this thinking man soldier you know was a was the mantra of a lot of these special forces stuff is always being able to adapt improvise adapt overcome you know that that's that's leading with this and with this so course is a time for pulling back and holding but i think generally the message you know% of the time, most people don't get to where they're going, not because of a lack of skills or talent, it's that lack of kind of ability to keep going when it's hard.

And that's why I think doing little things every day, small things that, you know, whatever it is, that just push this muscle a bit is good. You know, even if it's like, I mean, I've had a thing for years and it's now super popular. Everyone's kind of, you know, doing it, you know, the ice bath training. But I've done it for years and I love this thing.

It's just three minutes a day, I'm just in that cold water, you know, whether it's a river or in winter or lake or, you know, at nighttime. And, you know, I try and find somewhere every day, just get in that cold and it hurts, still hurts. But it's just a little something, whatever it is is that's your something it's difficult to do because most people spend their lives avoiding the painful the difficult you know that they're scared of public speaking or they're scared of it so they avoid the things that

challenge us but as you know it's where growth happens and growth isn't always fun it's often painful but it's like a muscle the more you push it the more you get used to it you know there's a great thing at the commando training center in limston that just says comfortable with uncertainty and it's a great thing for life you know don't get sat in that comfort zone too much you know i call it a comfort pit somewhere to get out of quick I was wondering if like training in the gym when I do my repetitions of the weights I then need a bigger weight to get the same gain so do you find yourself needing like a bigger thrill or a bigger expedition or a greater challenge to get the same like feeling of fulfillment and contempt from what your work these days and where do you find that after you've climbed Everest

and done all you've done? I don't feel that, no. You don't feel that? I don't feel that. I think what you're saying in the question is that where you get your fulfillment through that thing. And the answer is no, it's not where I get fulfillment. I do these things.

I try and do the difficult things just to keep that inside muscle honed a little bit. But it's not always about bigger and better and you know it's as i read the other day half of life is getting where you you're achieving your goals and the other half of life has been really happy to enjoy it the second one's a harder one to do and i think a big you know i'll be super lucky to fulfill so many things I still have many goals many ambitions but it's not goals and ambitions that trump the last one and ever bigger and oh you know it's not like that it's just really grateful and try make sure you stay alive

you know make sure you're always grateful for the many good things and the luck you've had along the way you know keep that muscle inside honed, keep working, keep doing your best. But it's definitely not where I find the fulfillment. It's not like, the achievement's never going to fulfill that whole. Did you used to think it would? Maybe a little bit. I think when I was young, you know, I think Everest certainly for me was such a symbol of like,

I'm going to do this, you know. It was at a time when only I think 20 odd Brits had ever climbed it and it was like I thought this is gonna be epic you know and then you see the realities of you know we have four climbers lose their lives up there and it re-rattled me in many ways and I was lucky to reach the top and got back in one piece but it didn't answer that question of you know I don't know I don't think I'd climb it now i'm not so out on a quest to kind of prove anything but i think when you're young is half of it's good to have a quest you know you've got to have that goal but the other half is that it's not it's not the answer to life is it you know it's it's

a you know that maybe comes from elsewhere and with time and experience you learn the real answer life is always rooted in you know something aside and that and relationships with great people and you know a lot of it I think comes down to love actually you know being uh knowing those connections with great people and a love of whatever it could be can be a love of the outdoors a love of what you do you know but um it's not found an achievement always have you found where it is found you don't seem to be so certain exactly where that that feeling of fulfillment um you talked about the second half which is like enjoying the goals have you figured that bit out i think it's a lifelong journey of

figuring it out you know i hope i edge closer to where it's not found which is it's never found in trophies and triumphs and accolades you know those things I see those things with clearer lenses now you know I'm more proud of to be married you know 22 years you know I got three great boys you know the simpler things I'm more proud of I think you know where do I really find fulfillment I think um I think my faith is a quiet thing in that sense you know faith's always a tricky one but and hard to articulate very well but it's definitely comes from a place of like that you're you're okay you okay. We're forgiven, we're loved, empowered and try and live life as best you can,

eyes wide open with gratitude in your heart and a tough resilient spirit to go for things. And I look at life in those sort of terms more and more. I feel like in the 2022 in the UK where I think we've grown more atheist as a society. I mean, some people say there's no such thing as an atheist, but we've grown more atheist in our viewpoints. It is harder to communicate if you do have a faith. Why did you say that it's a tricky thing? I think it's been so tarnished. I think religion has been so tarnished. And I get that.

I was always the least religious person growing up. I just thought, I mean, as a kid, I had a really natural faith. I always believed in some higher power and that I could feel, you know, there's something around, you know, as a little kid, it was like, ah, wow. And then I think I went to school and then, you know, you had to go to church and they all wore white cassocks and spoke in Latin. I thought, gosh, I've really missed it. You know, this is actually what it's about. And it's been a life journey to unwind all of that and realize actually the little me had it right. You know, faith is in your heart knowing that you're not alone and there's something bigger than us out there and

they're for us not you know that that power is for us not against us and despite my doubts and all of those sort of things I'm gonna put my trust in that and try and you know have love at the center of all we do and and live empowered and go for things and not be scared to fail and not be driven by fear and all those sort of things. And that to me what faith is. So it's hard to articulate, I think, because it's personal and it's intimate. And also it's, like I say,

it has just as many doubts as it does, you know, doubt and faith, two sides of the same coin. You know, I think it does feel like that for me, but through it all, I would say my Christian faith has been a real backbone and a kind of secret strength in many tricky moments. Light to a dark path, I always kind of feel,

it's that sort of thing. So yeah. I did wonder when I was reading about your faith and I watched you pray for Obama just at the end of your time with him, because I've sat here with guests who've undergone and witnessed such horrific things in their lives. And it's shaken their faith. In fact, Eubank was one of them that his brother suddenly died. They were both very

religious. And that shook his faith. And being out in nature, and being on those expeditions up Everest, where two people fall to their death and two you know die of the cold one would it might assume that those moments would shake your your faith but it sounds like it's made it stronger in a way from what you say well I think the two things happen often it gets shaken and strengthened and uh actually my experience that people people have really been taken to the edge that's actually where they find their faith you know you look at so many of the concentration camp stories and stuff you know it's uh you know two sides looking at one person said there can be no god i've seen i've witnessed evil personified and the uh it was if i can't remember

when said i've been to the edge and i know there's no place that God isn't. You know, it's all how we look at how we choose to live. And I choose to try and live with, you know, faith, faith in other people, faith in ourselves, faith in the Almighty. And that helped me. But it's funny, that thing with Obama, because in a way that was never meant to be on TV. It was just a spontaneous thing at the end of the journey and i'd you know as you know when you spend time with

people you get a sense of someone and i think at the end of that journey with obama i got a real sense that here's a guy with a weight of the world on his shoulders you know and he got lighter as the journey went on and by the end he said you know what's one of the best days of my presidency I'm out of the office I'm out of a suit talking about stuff that's in here rather than being grilled on you know politics and and I could see him light getting lighter you know and I just said at the end I said first of all good job you're doing you you probably I don't know if you get told it very often most people give giving you a little bit good you know doing your best dib dib dib you know and I wanted to say you know I don't feel like let's reef try and refill his fuel tank a bit yeah and actually it ended up going in the show you know I put a hand on his shoulder and said you know strength this guy you know and the

big decisions oh man you know and it wasn't really more complicated than that but I don't know I think the wild always creates honest connections without the fluff and it didn't feel unnatural and you know but it's funny how the effect of that I still get people to this day talk about that a lot and they're quite unlikely people often say that wasn't that was a good good moment not always easy I mean awkward sometimes isn't it doing that sort of thing of course but that's okay i've learned that that's okay dude sometimes the awkward things are are the best things telling someone that you know you know that they're amazing you know it can be awkward to a good friend but can can mean a lot quick one we bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the uk and when we're

in la if you want to be one of those people all you've got to do is hit subscribe you said earlier about being rattled after everest one would never assume that of course you climb the biggest mountain in the world and you come down and you're rattled and your confidence is knocked i think big mountains are humbling you know and sometimes you you take on these big projects and it's about come on we're gonna do it and you're you're full of that confidence but um but it's often quite surface. And I think when you see things close up and I think I came away with a real awareness of that I've been really lucky and got away with my life where others hadn't up there.

And this stage Everest was killing one in six people's lives, you know. And beforehand I read about that and it was almost kind of, it was almost glamorous. It was almost like romantic, you know, but you see the reality of it close up and it's not romantic, it know, but you see the reality of it close up and it's not romantic, it's dark and difficult and confusing. And I think my feeling at the end

of it was that I got really lucky, you know, I've been no doubt dug deep in a few big moments and, you know, it was some 92 days on that mountain, so there's a lot of time you do have to dig deep but ultimately had a bit of luck at key times and I think I came away aware of that and and grateful for that but less certain that just because you're determined in life doesn't mean everything's going to go well you know and I think beforehand I kind of thought if you give everything it's all going to work out but as you know in everything in life that there's no guarantees you know we're we we live a gloves off life you know life is gloves off there are no rules of kind of like if you if you give this school going to be you know roses and sunshine you know you can give the best in the world it's going to be hit you sometimes you know you get ill or something

happens and i think that's the part of me that got a bit shaken and but you know that's just life and you have to live with your eyes wide open to that and still choose to try and make the good decisions and pick the good attitudes and put them on like a t-shirt every day that even though gloves are off we're gonna go for this we're gonna do our best to be positive do our best to give our best and keep going for it. Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you? Two Russians and a Brit New Zealander from other teams. But they're on the mountain at the same time and never came back. And I remember with their teammates afterwards,

just them in tears and sitting with them. It definitely made me question a lot of the time is is any mountain really worth a life of which a clear answer is no but at the time you're sometimes your ambition is you know it's like we're gonna go for it and and that's why I think now kind of with a bit of time and experience would I would I do it now would I take a one to six chance of not coming home now no because you have more to live for but I think at the time I was like I'm all in I'm gonna go I want to make my mark you know at a young age and uh and the truth is I got lucky fame yeah what does that one mean yeah you tell me I've been only on the TV for a couple of minutes. I mean,

so, but you've been on there for many, many, many, many years. So I was hoping maybe you could give me a little bit of an overview of what fame is. Cause you know, when I looked at Bear Grylls podcast and I really couldn't find much, there was, for someone that's been in the public eye for so long, could barely find anything anything and then I read this quote that you you don't like sometimes you feel like when you meet someone there's a sense of you're worried you might disappoint them because they're expecting you to be something else well I think that's true I think part of my kind of the answer is I don't do very many of these you know I think um but that's okay I'm not so hungry for more people to know everything you know I do do these sort of things every now and

again with with good people and and when it feels right you know I think I think one of the reasons I get I get less comfortable sometimes in big groups of people and and doing press shuffle doings. You know, I'm not very, I don't really like the cameras on me, if I'm honest. I struggle really with that. So one, you know, I never gone to TV for that. You know, I gone to TV because, you know,

this producer said, do you want to try this thing? And like I said, we were just married and starting out and pretty broke. And it was like, let's go for it. Let's see what happens. But the sort of the recognition side of things you know i struggle with the word fame i think it's a weird one but i think the recognition side of things i i struggle with more um and i think part of it is a little part of me feels i'm never going to be quite as good as people expect you know in in as

the tv sometimes makes out and therefore less is more very happy with my family and friends and i go and work but i want to kind of come home afterwards but when it comes to fame you know you you say that you say about that i've i kind of learned i think over the years to first we'll take it with a not just a pinch of salt but with a bucket of salt you know don't believe it it doesn't it's not where your worth is your way you know if your worth is that you're always going to struggle because it goes up and down it's ultimately it's going down isn't it you know you're you know when we're when we're 95 years old nobody's going to know who who i am speak for yourself i'm joking well Well, and it doesn't matter.

It doesn't. But our sense of self-worth, you're always going to be fighting and losing battle, really. Yeah, yeah. So I take it all with a bucket of salt. I think for my family, growing up with a little bit of that,

I always say to our boys growing up, we got friends all over the world and look at it like that. Amazing connections. You know, i can go to go to any country and and there's a connection with with with people there and people want to tell their stories and go oh i've just been camping with my you know with my son or my you know my uncle was this or did that or my son's a scout daughter's a scout or whatever it is and i

like those connections always grateful for people's stories and and that's fine so that's how I kind of look at it pinch of salt don't believe it all but uh always be grateful for friends all over the world did you struggle with it I think I struggled with it when I felt the attention was on me I think I didn't like that that that felt I remember so well in the early days when we started doing man versus wild first two seasons we were just gunning and going, and it was all just kind of fun. Out there was a small crew. I never really didn't see it go down telly.

It was going out in America at the time, so I was over in the UK. I didn't see it. I didn't know what was happening. It was just lucky. It was good timing, and it just worked, you know. It just was meant to be at that time. But I didn't really see much of that

because I come home and live a regular life. And I remember the head of Discovery after that because I come home and you know live a regular life and I remember the head of Discovery after a couple of seasons say you know your show's best on Discovery it's getting over a billion viewers now around the world and uh and my heart sank I really started to struggle with it and I suddenly started that when we were filming I'd be like self-conscious and what what am I saying and the fun went out of it and my i got more anxious with it all and i thought i don't want people looking at this or doing this or and it was a really sort of marked time of and the crew said it's where they said it's everything okay and i think i had to learn to, it's about other people. You know, and when I realized people coming up

and they weren't going, you know, you're amazing. They would go, I took my son camping or my whatever did that. And when I realized it was about them and I'd really tried to shift it in my brain, everything's about them. You know, it's what it brings out, whether it's a single mom coming to me saying, when you once said about you in that storm in the jungle

and you said, sometimes life's going to beat you up and you just got to be dogged and keep going keep your head down you know the storms won't last forever and I really understood that as a single mom I was trying to hold down all these jobs I've got you know that for me lifted my whole I thought that's why I do this job and it kind of shifted it off me and and and and that's why I've always loved my job now as like chief scout. You know, for me, that was a revolution to be able to say,

when people come up to me and go, you know, oh, you've done this. Now, yeah, but look what you could do. You could join, you know, you could join that and you can do this. And, you know, somewhere to be able to not deflect, but sort of direct people a little bit. And refrain.

And I get such a kick out of that is why I love running wild so much because it's about other people it's about taking these rookies it might be amazing rookies but they're often wilderness rookies and opening their eyes to my office you know the outdoors what the wire can do for people that light inside that pride that come on you know that magic and uh and saying look at this and that freed me a lot away from kind of look at look at you know look that way instead of this way you said a word there which i i started thinking about a lot which was the word anxiety which i actually think is a quite an interesting thing because you're much of your work is about

the natural world and one of the i think our natural human signals is anxiety it kind of tells you something that you're potentially doing wrong maybe a train of thought that you've attached yourself to which is destructive or whatever else and depression is one of those things is what i talk about a lot is also seems to be a pretty clear signal for a natural signal that we have you know some of my guests have said that they've it's a signal that they've been disconnected from their tribe and it's and they've explained the science of that and um and even the signal of rejection and how that makes us feel is a prehistoric signal telling us to get back into our tribe because or that there's a chance we might be thrown off the island by our tribe because we're being rejected so to change our behavior and all of these signals anxiety depression and this whole mental health um awareness that's emerged in the

last 10 years what's your relationship been like with those with those um those topics first of all it's it's amazing that people are talking about this and focusing on it more you know i think you know it's it's long overdue and it's a key part of our arsenal for life isn't it our weapons that are going to help make your heart happy you know you you need to need to look after the physical you need to look after the emotional you need to look after the spiritual and you need to look after the mental side of things you know it's all these are all weapons in our arsenal we've got to focus on and if you neglect one there's always going to be a little part of your heart that is going to struggle

a bit if you if you whether it's emotional physical or mental so you've got to try and put things in place that help your mental health and um and i think people for many years often neglected that you shut things away but actually the so many of the things that help us mentally are simple things as you say those connections to people and that honesty and vulnerability and and like we've been talking about not letting yourself sort of live a life that actually isn't real not letting people make you into that hero that you don't always feel you know stay honest stay connected talk to people you know be outside how how many times do we see studies proving that when we're outside and we're in the sun and we're expressing and we're working hard and we're connected to people that's why the wild is such an amazing mental health

weapon to build up that resource you know in a world that often depletes the resource you know all of this stuff is always pulling you know if find pulling pulling you know put leaves you emptier but for me the wild and connection and the sun and outdoors and swimming cold rivers and and challenge and failing all these sort of things build up i find for me help my mental health you can't take your eye off the ball with mental health you gotta and you're not always going to get it right and that's okay is there a time in your life where you discovered mental health was a very real thing because of an experience that you'd had because i think for many years i thought it was something that happened to other people and then there's a couple of sort of catalystic events that happened in my life that made me realize that i am not immune to anxiety to feelings you know depressive

symptoms and all of those things. But is there something in your life where there's a pivotal moment or life events typically are the catalyst of those things where you go, oh, this is something that I now need to put as a priority? I think I've been lucky in the sense that I've never suffered from really bad depression,

you know, where many, many friends I've stood alongside have really had battles. I think I've always had a you know an intuition of when I need to change something and when I'm struggling a little bit and when hold on this this feeling of of anxiety to be going on a bit what can we change what helps me and I've always sort of accidentally found things that help make that problem better and for me it's been that go-to of being outdoors being with great friends having a few just a few good friends rather than lots and lots of friends you know even things like our our be military fit our bmf our veterans run fitness business

has helped me so much because it's a collective tribe of, often veterans, people who need that camaraderie, but want to train, want to stay physically fit, don't want to be in a gym inside with white light and all of that. They want to be outside in the fresh air, they want to be down in the dirt a little bit, or they want to laugh at themselves in situations and face a few, you know, rain swept early mornings training outside in a park together and and like our physical health the more we can be aware of the things that do help and have proven to help and to gravitate towards those seek those things in our life be outside be connected train you know be honest have a few friends the more it's going to help us when we do have the dark moments and i've never met anyone

who doesn't have them you know they might they might tell you, but everyone has these moments and I certainly have. But I've also never met a strong person who's had an easy past. You know, it's just part of it. If you're going to go for big things and you're going to shoot for the top, you're going to have struggles and failures

and part of life. When was your darkest moment? One was when I broke my back in the military and was in rehabilitation for a long time. And so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved. And suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom

without excruciating agony. And my back was broken in three places. And I had to then leave my job, you know, with the military and it was just, what am I going to do with my life, you know? But I also look at that time and I think, if I hadn't have gone through that, I don't think I ever would have actually had the drive and the impetus to make that Everest expedition happen at that young age.

And if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have opened the door to other things and then eventually the TV. And, you know, it's like these clouds that often, you know, it's why not to be scared when life does hit you sideways, because there's often a sort of a plan there. You just got to try and keep moving forward towards it.

But that was definitely a dark time. And I think also losing my dad at a young age. I mean, Shara and my wife and me both lost our parents within 10 weeks of each other in year one of marriage and it was we were young we were 24 25 and uh just starting out in life and I think we always had that safety net of our parents behind us you know and I think suddenly both losing our dads and now being responsible for our mums and it was uh it definitely took that safety net away. And it was like, wow, we're both dealing with trauma here.

Not always very well, but we got it. I mean, I look back now and actually it's what made us, made us really tight and to have a love and a trust and a vulnerability together that has been a key thing in our relationship, I think, ever since. But at the time it was just pure pain and a huge hole that is still there to this day. You know, I mean, seeing our three boys grow up,

the great loss for me is that, you know, they will never know my dad or he would never know them and how like he was, they are, and all of these dynamics that we take for granted. And so often I see friends now and they go, oh, my, you know, my mum's a bit poorly and my dad, I'm thinking, there's part of me thinking, you know, you're so lucky to have had your parents for that long. And we were always dealing with looking after sort of my mum and all her sort of bills and everything. And, you know, when I was 25, you know, it's been going on a long time. But, but at at the same time I think my dad taught me so many

of the key things in life which was back to that earlier point of like you know be resilient and be kind and keep going and and those things I'll always be grateful for and I wish my only regret is that I didn't get a chance to say to him wow you were right you were actually right all along when I kicked against it and kind of you know you were right you know follow your dreams be kind be resilient never give up and uh I never said thank you enough for that that's something I always worry about my dad is has outlived his siblings and um I don't feel like I've made enough of an effort to stay connected. There's something about us

where we just think our parents are going to be around forever. Like when you said the safety blanket thing, it's like this, it's almost like it reminds me of COVID where I didn't realize the tectonic plate of society could ever move. So I built my life like ignorantly

on this foundation that society would be open and that, and then one day someone showed me that there was even a tectonic plate underneath me that i didn't know was there and my parents are the same thing they've just always been there so i assume naively that they always will be but what would you say to what advice would you give me about well never take that for granted and never never be scared of saying i mean tell him now you know tell him on this he'll listen to this he's probably incredibly incredibly proud of you all you've achieved

superseded his wildest dreams of what a son could be and he should be proud and tell him what would you tell your dad if he was listening maybe well i think i'd i'd say thank you for for the little things you know it's not that it's thanks for being there on that touchline when i was linesman you know thanks for not putting too much focus just on success and school reports and being top thank you for putting focus on being kind and having a dream, even though it might not be the path most trodden. But go for it.

If it's your dream, go for it. And thanks for saying that never give up is the golden currency of life rather than good looks, sporty talent or academic brilliance. But I think for you, your dad knows, you know, I'm sure he knows, but never stop telling him, you know, because I think really parental relationships, one of those ones,

it's always going to be, there's always going to be dynamics and struggles and fallouts and arguments and stuff, but you can never articulate it too much that you love someone and you can never overestimate how much those simple awkward difficult words to say mean I mean my great buddy said he really wanted to tell his dad one time he loved him but he knew so English he wouldn't his father but it would be a really difficult thing to say and he eventually said I'm gonna say to he said dad have his father, but it would be a really difficult thing to say. And he eventually said, I'm going to say to her. And he said, Dad, I just want to just let you know

I really love you. And his son, his dad goes, you've been drinking. You know, but the thing is, that's okay. His dad would go home that night knowing that he hadn't been drinking, the guy, his son hadn't been drinking, but that was special. And I think those awkward, it's back to that thing

of doing sometimes the awkward, difficult things, like like the prayer with Obama is a really good thing you know and I've tried to get better at this in my life of saying thank you and and doing nice things and saying awkward but good things to people I mean I said it to my great buddy the other day Rupert I said to him you know we work a lot together and stuff so I said actually you know forget the work side of things you you're such a lovely friend and I literally saw boom I saw eyes well out just for a second you know and it was like you know are you oh you're great I know it's good let's keep keep training or whatever we're doing you know but it's sometimes the awkward things are the good things and um i hope as i live and do more in life that i i create more and more of

those moments because there are many people i like i said i stand on the shoulders of many giants that are the real heroes in my life and i definitely consider my dad one i definitely consider those i served alongside in the military many, still friends to this day. I mean, I was with Corporal Williams, my old, you know, squadron, you know, patrol commander, who's now aged, you know, 70 and lives in Merthyr Tydfil. I was with him the other day for a walk in the Breckins. Just remind him, I go, you've been an amazing friend through life

and I'll never forget the belief you had in me in the early days. Thank you, you you know I consider the camera crew I work with in that same vein and uh never take those for granted your wonderful wife remember you saying once upon a time if you really want to know someone you've got to ask the wife and kids what they're like you know so true isn't it? I mean... What if I asked your wife, what would she say? What would she say about the... Flawed.

She'd probably say it's flawed. Flawed. Flawed. But, you know... In what way? I think loyalty and sticking through things and knowing the real us and that we're not perfect and we're there for each other creates a creates a power to it and I do look at

relationships that are special like you know with your kids or with your wife it's like stained glass you know you need to they're really beautiful but you've got to protect them and you've got to protect them number one and I think it's so easy in life to do the opposite as actually take that one for granted and we produce our best we produce our best for the at the dinner party to hold court and say the jokes and you know and it's the wrong way around you know it's the wrong way around save your best I think it's something I've learned and still try and I don't always get right by any means but I know the goal is try and save my best for those I value the most which is the closest relationship to you with your wife

and with your kids, you know, save the best for them rather than kind of be tired and grumpy with them and then go out and then be on form. You know, it's trying to shift it the other way and it's counterculture, but it's always going to make you happier, you know. And that's why I say,

if you want to know what someone's like, ask their wife, because don't look at the press reports and don't read their own stories about themselves. You know, ask the person who really knows them when the mask is off and when the cameras aren't rolling. They're the ones. And it's not to say, you know, anyone's perfect,

but try and save your best for them. And I think if you do ask my wife what I I would love her to say I'd love her to say that I was loyal and kind and fought for them you know that that's what I just have always tried to do in my life and prioritize them and many times in in my life in the early days of TV especially there was so much pressure to you know be away too much and go and do that and do the extra episode and do the extra thing. And, you know, Discovery Channel are asking for one more thing there.

And you end up burning, burning the things that are most valuable because you're way too much. You're focusing on this and always creates damage. And I say, sorry for those times, there's way too much. And that's why I fought so hard to start to produce and make our own shows where we owned the format and we could decide it's not

I go no it's our boys half term I'm I'm not gonna even though it's you know Tom Cruise or whoever I'm I'm gonna be at the half term for this I want to put a shift onto the family and it's been a great thing it's been a key thing and the other stuff is work it will always be there you know it'll be there and it's okay sometimes i fall into the trap of doing that so you know you get an offer come in and it's oh 50 grand or 100 grand to do this thing here it'll take one day but i'd scheduled to be in indonesia that day with my partner and i'm looking i'm going a hunt can I really turn down a hundred grand for one day just like hanging out on the sofa with my partner it's a new challenge that I've been contending with what

I mean you've been through this well I think I think the answer is at the same time you're hustling and you've got to work and you've got to build it and you're building it especially when you get married and have kids you're building for their future and and all of us have this struggle but I think listening to that inner voice, you know, a little bit. And there's this line, isn't there, that we walk where, you know, this side is family, this side is work. And the problem is,

if you only try and walk this line, everyone's always asking favors. You know, it's just one off. It's one event. It's one thing. And before you know it, you're spending too long on this side of the line and you're creating damage and loss.

It's only damage. It's losing. You're creating loss on this side of the line and you're creating damage and loss. It's only damage, it's losing. You're creating loss on this side. And I think what I've learned is just shift the line a little bit. You know, make the line here. Oh, so make it even more family orientated to start with. Yeah, so when you drift over the line a few times, which you're going to do,

you're still in surplus, you're still in surplus. And I think the wisdom and experience of life is knowing, do you know what? No, we should go and do do that i will go and do that event so that's important but knowing also the ones that really protect it's often the little things isn't it like a you know like the linesman story you know like that school play or that anniversary or whatever and listen i'm speaking from a place of flawed failure through many many times but I've learned through those things why do you say that because I got it wrong many times I've just been there yeah just been there and made mistakes and got them wrong but I've learned through those

is that it's worth protecting the most the thing of most value in your life and I think then with success what happens you'll reach a point where you don't need that extra 100 grand you know maybe when you're getting it maybe you've got to hustle a bit maybe you've got to make some sacrifices you do to be successful you have to sacrifice maybe you know and I was the same I had to in those early days you gotta you gotta go that extra mile I'm not saying you don't you do but maybe you reach a point where enough's enough and then then what you're really saying to your girlfriend or it might be your wife or your kids at that stage is that I value you more than the hundred grand.

And when you're successful, it doesn't get any easier to say no. It becomes more important to say no. Amen. I felt that. Speaking of work, really compelled by when I read that you're the chief scout. I was like, that's the CEO of the scouts, right? Is that not the CEO of the scouts, effectively?

Well, I don't think I've ever, I've never had an aspiration to be like a CEO. CEO has always felt very important, even though we are on the diary of a CEO. I never feel like a CEO. The greatest honor in my life has been to you know be a be a small cog in this incredible worldwide machine of 55 million young people bound together by a common set of values of respect and kindness and humility and and adventure and determination and life skills and you know it's an amazing privilege i never take it for, it's an amazing privilege. I never take it for granted.

It's a worldwide force for good. It truly is. The Scouting Movement is unlike anything else out there. And it really has been the greatest honor in my life. And I love it. I can sum up my job as Chief Scout in three words, you know, encourage, encourage, encourage, you know, and shine the light on those, the young people,

because the stuff that they get up to, the missions they're on the the efforts the endeavors the expertise what they do is amazing they're leading the thing on climate change they're leading in many refugee camps and disaster areas helping serving and when you get 57 million young people around the world saying, I make a promise to be kind and helpful. You know, it's amazing. There's a power to that. And it's brilliant. Do you think your career is complete? I hope not. I hope not. I'm still hustling. I'm still I like that. I like the struggle. I like the fight. I like the ambition. We've built a brilliant team. We're pushing many endeavors, you know,

away from just the TV shows. You know, I'm super proud of our Be Military Fit, our veterans fitness business. You know, we have our theme parks, our adventure parks at the NEC and we're opening up new ones around the world. We have the scout staff. We, you know, we have education initiatives.

I love it. For me, it's about using this God-given platform we've been given through the TV shows to try and do exactly the same as we do with the TV shows, which is to shine a light on you and say, look what you can do. Will it ever be complete? And I hope not.

I think it's like my bucket list gets longer and longer as I live in life. It's like the more things, we can do that and we can help do this. And I always want to live with that eyes wide open, you know, willing to be all in, willing to fail, willing to put myself up with great people, have that focus mission of trying to empower other people,

helping other people to find their adventures in life, whether it's through books or TV shows or whatever, to like be able to go that extra mile, to be able to dig deep, to understand the storms of life come, but sometimes you got to be dogged and determined to keep going. I want to bring that adventure spirit

to people every day I live on this earth. That's the goal. To no end. To no end. I think, I mean, maybe I'll finish the TV shows one day, you know, that will naturally end in due course. I can't, I mean, to be honest, I never thought I'd still be doing it now, you know, but we're doing in due course i can't i mean to be honest i never thought i'd still be doing it now you know but with we're doing more tv shows than ever before we're doing

a new network show on ustv the next month we're starting season eight of running wild you know still out there gunning it and going and i love that but the tv shows will end but the adventures won't you know i i god willing you know, I hope when I'm an old guy, I'm going to be having loads of adventures with my kids and eventually with grandkids and sharing that adventure spirit. Because as you know, you know, adventure is truly a state of mind, whatever you're doing, whatever, you know, my wife always jokes that I'm going to be in the old people's home,

go, come on, come on, we're going to do it, we're going to go over there, you know, and I think that's a state of mind that is about pushing the boundaries and, come on, come on, we're going to do it, we're going to go over there. And I think that's a state of mind that is about pushing the boundaries and having that resilience and that kind of wide-eyed gratitude for life and the connections. Because the truth is the world is amazing and it's a huge privilege. You look at everything that's happening around the world, there's hardship and struggling and battle and loss. And the fact that we get to, you know,

have our families and have something we love to do and that we're safe and we live in this kind of society that has a rule of law and all these things are so easy to take for granted. We must never take that for granted. We've got to live with that eyes wide open. Thank you. And keep that adventure state of mind firing bright that fire inside shining bright never give up the the name of your recent book

um this book i got the sense that it was slightly more special than previous books to you and that it had taken five years to write this book that you wrote it all yourself it is it took a long time you know i was reluctant to write it. I wrote an autobiography called Mud, Sweat and Tears originally. But the truth is, you know, and that book did well, you know, it did 20 weeks at number one. And I always kind of felt that I'm not going to beat that. You know, I'm not going to do another, but we're done.

But that book really ended as TV started. And so many of the questions that I get asked by my kids and by people in the street always like the behind the scenes, what was it like on this? What was it like taking that person? Or what about the struggles there or whatever? And in a way, they're the stories that I wanted my boys to understand, you know, and I think my kids are kind of grown up and seen the good side, seen the things that have worked, but aren't always aware of the many failures behind those successes. And I wanted to be able to share all of that and share the things that actually made the difference.

And I wanted to write it myself and, you know, be honest in it. And so it took a long time to write, but I'm really proud of it. And I think it was always going to be called Never Give Up. You know, it's at a time where I think the world's coming through an incredibly continues to be an incredibly tough time and I think that spirit of relentless determination is needed more than ever with all people and young people especially so I'm proud of the stories and and uh proud to call it never give up when I wrote my book I I didn't realize this until I'd wrote it that it was actually much more a learning process than it was a preaching process you you because it is a a journey writing a book is there something that you learned that you didn't know before you started on that journey of writing

never give up that it was profound or a problem you solved from putting pen to paper that you that you hadn't solved before that comes to mind? Well, I've definitely learned that for writing or speaking to be good, it has to be difficult. It has to be painful. You know, how often do we see the person who stands up and stands on stage and gives a talk and loves the sound of their own voice and it's just like, it's a ball.

They're a ball, you know? But the person who's, this is hard to articulate or talk about, but for what it's a bore they're a bore you know but the person who's this is hard to articulate or talk about but for what it's worth this is where you know you're there and it's the same with writing I think it's got to be vulnerable and it's got to have that struggle to it and that's why it took me a while what do you find what did you feel well yeah for me there was a couple of questions that when i started a chapter i hadn't actually answered them yet and by the end of the chapter i'd answered the question but it was because of that process what is it easy for you to be

vulnerable are you someone because we only think of someone that's been in the sas and this you know again they're talking about the public stereotype you're a tough guy resilience vulnerability seems to be the antithesis of that for a lot of people the complete opposite how have you been you know we talk about toxic masculinity a lot now i sat here with terry cruz the actor big tough guy and his new book tough which is about toxic masculinity what's your relationship with vulnerability and well first of all terry cruz hero and one of our running wild guests actually i took him on one last year and he was, like with you, very honest about some of this stuff.

Vulnerability was hard initially, but I think it's where life is. And like when you climb any big mountain, where you rope to someone 24 hours a day, it brings you close. But it also is where the bonds are. And and when you when you're vulnerable with someone it creates a connection you know you and me probably feel more connected by being the vulnerability than the look at this you know vulnerability creates bonds and creates strength but like all these things there's a pain and a takes a strength to do it but i think um i'm not scared to show that you know i've got nothing to prove and i don't want people to think it's just all heroic.

You know, I want people to know that there's been many struggles through it all, but these things have quietly helped me. And I always think people have two faces of their life. One is like, you don't want the world to see who you really are. You're out there, you project this kind of image. And then the second half is you no longer care you just want to be honest and when you're honest there's there's an amazing bonds with the really people you want to create bonds with and some people have that realization at 25 and they live the rest of life in this empowered way some people don't reach that

point until they're 85 they live the whole life with this mask and it's only when they're with that maybe nurse and a nurse and the first person they're actually being honest and vulnerable and broken with. But you eventually realize it, you know, and the goal, I suppose, of life is to get to this place early because it's where the wealth is. It's where the happiness is because you're not having to pretend any longer.

And you can form those deeper relationships, as you said, which is exactly what happens when we have these conversations there you go we have a closing tradition on the podcast which is our last guest asks a question for the next guest so the question is if you had to predict where will you be this time in five years time wow the truth is i hope to hope to be doing the same sort of thing in the sense that living this mission of trying to empower other people to find their adventures through all these different means you know through the tv shows or the books or whatever you know i i love that mission you know it starts from my relationship with my kids and it extends to Scouts and it extends beyond that from there.

So I hope to have that same mission, maybe at a slightly slower pace. You know, we film a lot of shows at the moment and it's away a lot and it's, you know, it definitely has full on elements to it. So maybe kind of dial down the pace a bit, but same mission and still protecting family first you know beyond before work before before even that mission protect family first and keep that

those relationships strong you know my body aches every day i've got many scars like an old man getting up in the morning but uh i don't apologize for any of those things. And I think by the end of my life, if I can, I don't want to arrive in a perfectly preserved body. It's that quote, I want to come skidding in sideways, covered in scars, screaming,

yo, what a ride, you know. And long may that spirit continue. Yeah, thank you so much for the time and generosity. I've got to say, this does really feel like a huge honor for me because of how infrequently you do anything like this. So I just want to communicate how much of an honor this genuinely feels like for me. And I feel very special and I feel like our team are very honored to have you here and to have this conversation with you. You're someone

that's achieved an unbelievable amount and for you to be so honest and because it would be so easy for you to say, to play into the narrative that you have superpowers but it's almost impossible to get you to indulge in that and as you say that makes the things you've achieved so attainable for everybody that's listening including myself and if it is something that I can learn and grow and a muscle I can build then that for me is incredibly empowering and empowerment so is so evidently at the center of all the work you do with the scouts with your new book never give up which I highly recommend everybody reads the paperback is out on the 9th of june but it's really you can tell you've written it you can tell that it's come from a place of real authenticity and

someone who is is willing to tell you the truth and we need a lot more of that so thank you i'll never be able to say thank you enough for coming and doing this and uh yeah thanks for the inspiration over the years you've made you've empowered me just in this conversation yeah it's okay well likewise you're doing an amazing job and thank you your dad he will definitely know it i'm gonna i'm gonna text him i'm gonna send my voice note after this so thank you thanks thank you Thank you.