The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Body Language Expert: This Small Mistake Makes People Dislike You! This Is The Real Reason You're Still Single! When You Do This You Look Like A Loser Sorry But You Do!

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Can you make someone like you in seconds? Vanessa Van Edwards returns with the science-backed secrets of dating and likeability - tested in real-life dating scenarios for the very first time.  Vanessa Van Edwards is the founder of ‘Science of People’, a platform that gives people skills to improve communication and leadership. She is also the bestselling author of ‘Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People’ and ‘Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication’. 00:00 Intro 03:02 How Important Is It to Master the Skill of Communication? 03:33 Are We Set in Our Ways? Is Charisma Genetic? 04:18 Different Types of Awkwardness in People 04:53 How to Make Friends – The 3 Core Friendship Values 06:37 How Do You Figure Out Your Core Friendship Values? 06:57 [Missing Title] 07:34 How Many People Has Vanessa Taught These Skills? And What Do They Want? 08:18 First Impressions 10:24 Profile Pictures 14:10 Add Cues for a Better First Impression 15:28 How Sunglasses Block Connection 16:21 More Good Cues for First Impressions 16:54 How Do I Make a Really Bad First Impression? 18:30 What We Need to Signal to Express Warmth 21:27 Breaking the Script 23:19 Master Communicators and the "Chemical Cocktail" 28:11 Online First Impressions 29:11 Be the Red Apple 30:17 How to Make an Impression on Zoom 32:08 The Story Toolbox 35:07 How Important Is Background on Zoom? 36:29 Where to Look on Zoom Calls 37:16 Date Experiments 43:09 Drivers and Passengers in Conversation 44:23 Micro Wins 45:05 Body Language That Indicates Attraction 49:35 Why Busyness Is Not a Mark of Success 51:16 The Jam Study – Too Many Choices 52:12 Prioritizing Self-Care Over Connection 53:08 Dating Checklists 54:23 Do We Get More Numb the More We Date? 55:32 Two Challenges If You're in a Funk or Feeling Lonely 58:26 Steve Being a Control Freak 01:00:14 Networking Events 01:00:55 Ads 01:09:20 Using the Word "Because" as a Leader 01:11:01 How Do We Know If Someone Likes Us? 01:14:20 What If You're Not a Funny Person? 01:16:09 Can You Learn to Be Funny? 01:16:57 Touch 01:18:10 Hacks for Being Funny 01:19:36 Channeling Other People 01:20:36 Microexpressions 01:21:37 Reading Fear in People's Faces 01:23:24 Seeing Disgust in People's Faces 01:25:09 How to Tell If Someone Is Angry Without Them Saying It 01:27:05 How to Tell When Someone Is Truly Happy 01:28:49 How to Tell If Someone Is Sad Even If They Don’t Say It 01:31:03 How to Tell If Someone Is Surprised 01:32:33 How to Tell If Someone Has Contempt Toward You 01:35:23 Can and Should We Change Our Personalities? 01:37:20 Steve's Personality Traits 01:38:49 Making Your New Partner Take a Personality Test 01:41:20 Conscientious People 01:57:05 Do Extroverts Have Better Immunity? 01:58:04 Personality Traits of Lifelong Singles 01:59:57 Should We Know Other People's Personality Types When We Meet Them? 02:01:38 Feeling Like the Vibe Is Off 02:03:31 What Are You Doing to Serve Others Follow Vanessa:  Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/4i5lvOnaqSb  Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/6KQtfyqaqSb  You can find out more about Vanessa’s personality test, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/SnXJL6ntqSb  You can purchase Vanessa’s book, ‘Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/L0YqrVvaqSb  Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes  You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb  Sign up to receive email updates about Diary Of A CEO here: https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt  Ready to think like a CEO? Gain access to the 100 CEOs newsletter here: https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter  Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb  Sponsors: Get your hands on the Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards here: https://bit.ly/conversationcards-mp Linkedin Jobs - https://www.linkedin.com/doac ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code BARTLETT10 for 10% off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A lot of people do the sun dates and it drives me crazy. Look, watch this. Vanessa, yesterday you and my team did some matchmaking. Yes. Okay, so we had the very first date and I pre-coached the gentleman and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece and I was shocked by these dates.

Please don't do that. This is why we're having a baby crisis. I got angry after this date. Why? I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you in a silver platter. She was physically attracted to him. And I asked her, would you like to go out with him again? And she said to me, really?

Yeah, yeah. And now we are missing opportunities for connection, the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior. Decoding universal body language and sharing science-backed secrets for better dates.

Smoother conversations and bigger career wins. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back. The first place I want to start is, can we change who we are? They've actually researched this. And every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits. And they fall on a spectrum, high, medium, or low. And they're somewhere between 42 42 to 57% heritable.

For example, neuroticism, which is how you worry. And high neurotics, like me, produce less serotonin more slowly. Serotonin makes us feel calm. And so like, I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room, and that's genetic. But there is 30 to 40% potential for change. You want a better relationship, you want to raise, you want a promotion if you want more friends. The good news is anyone can learn these cues and techniques,

such as decoding the seven universal micro-expressions we all do unconsciously, how to spot a liar, the number one mistake people make in a first impression, and how to become a master communicator. Can I teach them to you? Please. Let's start with... I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple

and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favour and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world

to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back. Thank you for much for your time. Back to this episode. [♪ music playing on video VINESSA VAN EDWARDS, WELCOME BACK! Thank you for having me back. How you been? Oh my gosh, your folks are so kind. Can I just say, since the last interview, the incredible people have reached out and just been supportive and kind.

They ask amazing questions and so I'm just so grateful. So I've been really good. Just in case anybody doesn't know who you are and what you do, you're going to have to take me back. What is it you do and who are you? I'm a recovering awkward person and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate. I have books and courses and I love helping very, very smart people share their ideas better. Communicate online and in person?

Oh, all of it. All of it. Slack, text, email, online, in person, on the phone. We can talk about vocal power, video power. You are communicating all the time even if you don't realize it. And that's the hidden opportunity. How important is it? Like, how pivotal is it and can it be for someone's life if they master the skill of communication, first impressions and all the things that you educate us onto articulately? It will get you everything you want.

You want a better relationship, you want a soulmate, you want a raise, you want a promotion, you want a business, you want more friends, you want a support system, it will even get you longevity. That's how strong I feel about it. If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes.

But is it not genetic? You know, like, are we set in our ways? Look, there are certain people born out the womb, charismatic. Great hand gestures, great eyebrows, right out the womb. There are those very unique people. But most of us learn charisma. Most really, really charismatic leaders, they've learned, ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile. Oh, this vocal power, ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile.

Oh, this vocal power, people pay attention and lean in. And they've accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma. And the good news is, I think anyone can learn it. Anyone, no matter how awkward you are. Believe me, I'm proof you can learn it. You're proof. I'm recovering awkward person. I was so awkward.

I had a really hard time communicating with people. I was not well liked. I had very few friends. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it. I had a really hard time communicating with people. I was not well liked. I had very few friends. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it. I promise. It's almost impossible to believe that you were an awkward person. I promise. Also, awkwardness dresses up in different ways, right?

So I think most people when they think of awkward, they think of that stereotypical, robotic, unreadable, saying weird things. That was not my brand of awkward. My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn't, telling funny stories that were not funny, talking too much, shocker. Right, it was saying the wrong things and over-communicating.

I also had that Labrador energy, you know, like that golden retriever energy, where I'm like, do you know what I mean? She just stuck her tongue out for the video. Yeah, I'm like super into people and that was awkward because people would be like, back up, it's okay. And that was awkward because it created, I was so over eager, I so wanted people to like me

that I feel like I was leaning into everyone all the time. And that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard. So when you see people write into the show or speak to me in the street, and it's so surprising that the thing, even if they live in these, you know, densely populated cities, the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is I don't know how to make a friend. And it's funny because sometimes they say it to me in a gym and I'm like, there's 300

people surrounding us right now. And not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself. Yeah, but a lot of us, I think, have casual friends. We have like, you know, acquaintances, people, they know what we do, but then we don't know how to level up. Like, I believe that everyone should have core friendship values. Mine are, for me personally, respect, meaning they don't show up late. They respect my time.

Self-honesty. I actually like honesty, but I prefer self-honesty in a friend. I had friendships that didn't work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things and I'm not a liar. So I would be like, but he's terrible to you. And they'd be like, what? No, he's not. Self deception doesn't work for me.

That's a core friendship value. Cannot do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Self honesty, self honesty specifically. And the last one is depth. So once I started going deep, I realized I need that. I cannot have a surface level friend. Like I want to know how is your marriage, but how is it really?

Like I want to go really, really deep. And if I sense that there's any kind of hesitation there, we're not going to be friends. So I think it's important to think about, yes, hobbies, great. Like you want to do activities with these people. But what are your core friendship values? And how do I figure out what my core friendship values are? Okay. Think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends.

Okay? Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Think about friendships that didn't work out, that had a lot of potential, but like, they just, they fizzled, you never quite had a good time with them. Or friends that you get together with them all the time, but they still wouldn't be a best friend. Why?

Okay, yeah. Like what is blocking, what is missing there? And it could be on either side, right? It's like not all just up to them. So think about what drives you crazy. And then like what makes you feel healed? What makes you feel good? What makes you feel calm? What makes you feel like yourself? Personal responsibility is a big one for me, I think. Give me an example of that. Just like, it's a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are in control

of your outcomes. Because then it's like almost the antithesis of victimhood. Totally. And you don't want to be dealing with a friend who's chronically engaged in like victimhood, you know? You want heroes. And how many people have you taught this skill of better communication and better connections to in the last decade? Oh my gosh, well at least 400,000 students who I can count. But millions more.

400,000 students. Yes. And it's actually probably way more than that, but that's just what we can count. And what is like the essence of what they're trying to get? Because obviously a skill is a path to something that they want. What is the thing that they want? They want to be master communicators. Why?

They want to be able to ask for what they want and get it. If you are a master communicator, no matter what you want, again, if it's a partner or a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well. Can you make me a master communicator? For sure. Let's do it then. Again, if it's a partner or a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well. Can you make me a master communicator? For sure. Let's do it then. Let's do it.

The first place I want to start is with first impressions. And how one can make a great first impression. Because first impressions are like, I make them all day every day. When I meet people on the podcast, in business, in the street, at the gym, someone might listen to the show, they come up to me. So I'm constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression.

Because from the work that I've read of yours, they really matter, right? They really matter. They really matter. How much? Our first impressions are actually very accurate. They find 76% accurate with our personality traits. In other words, people can accurately guess after a first impression how extroverted you are, how agreeable, how neurotic. Actually, neurotic is the hardest one to guess.

We can hide that really well. Openness and conscientiousness. We're pretty good at guessing that. Like I can guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction, which means they're lasting. So if you've made a bad first impression, it's hard to recover. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, we can work on it, but nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person.

So it's very important that we don't throw them away. And this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression. They do it like this. Oh, hi, nice to meet you. Looking down at their phone or their iPad or their computer or their notepad or their book. When we are looking down,

it looks very much like the universal defeat posture. Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest. We usually have our very little space between our shoulders and our earlobes. We have our arms close to our sides. This, yeah. Don't you feel kind of horrible? You look horrible. Thank you.

Look. When you check your phone, every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser. And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning. When you check your phone, every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser. And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning. So in a first impression, you're waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview. You're waiting for your date, for possibly your perfect person.

And what are you doing? Checking your phone. So I'm sat there looking like a loser. Yeah, that first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you, and this is another mistake introverts make, they think their first impression happens starts the the first few seconds of seeing you, and this is another mistake introverts make, they think their first impression happens the moment they start talking.

No. Your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you. That's when they walk into a room, open the door, walk into a restaurant, or look at your profile picture. Profile pictures are even more important. They've found that people make a first impression of you within the first hundred milliseconds of looking at your profile picture. That's so fast that you barely even realize

you saw a picture. But we are so attuned to look at someone's facial expressions, their body posture, what's visible, our clothing, our ornaments. And what's fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions, which means we are in control of our first impressions.

If different pictures of the same person, like if you have five different pictures of yourself and you put them up on different LinkedIn profiles, people are going to make different judgments of you, which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture, but also having the right body language when someone first sees you. Someone did a study on that? Yeah. I think Simin Vazir, I think did this study.

Yeah. Don't quote me, but I believe Simin Vazir does a lot on digital first impressions. And what's incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression. So for example, I've played around with this on mine where I'll have my hand in my picture. Like there's a big difference. If you were to see me like this with my face on my hands, it's called a face platter.

Okay, so for anyone that can't see you, you've got both of your hands out and your chin resting in the middle of them. Yeah, it's called a face platter. Think of my face on a platter for anyone who's listening. This is a very different impression than this. Same face, face platter, warm, almost feminine, kind of girly, versus this, very professional, very competent. Just that one difference.

So all these cues are changing, especially if your first impression is happening on dating profile apps, on LinkedIn, in your email, like a little picture in your email, your website. It is changing the way people treat you and think of you. Okay, so let me show you some profile photos. I would love to see. And you tell me what they're giving. Oh, right.

Okay. What is this giving? Okay. So she's leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand. First, immediately, a head tilt. Head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth. She's giving me nurturing vibes. Don't you want to tell her all your problems?

I would guess she's a therapist or a life coach. She has a watch on, which is a good ornament for competence. So she's probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst. Probably has a degree. She also wears glasses. We like women in glasses and makeup for very competent. That actually ups our competence factor, but this is just the research, not my opinion. And she has a sweater tied around her top and that's very conservative. So I would say warm and nurturing could be a grandmother likely in a self-help profession. Correct. So some cues there we can learn from is we want to balance out the friendliness,

the warmth, the approachability with the take me seriously. So you take her seriously because of her watch and her glasses and her lack of a smile. Those are all cues of competence. We like that. We also like those cues of warmth. Head tilt, hand on face, and a soft smile. So in that way, it's a perfect balance or blend. What about this guy?

Profile photo. Okay, so we are seeing a gentleman with no hands. So we see no hand gestures, just his face. He's also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward. You also see a genuine smile. The best thing about this picture is he's doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated. His upper zygomaticus, terrible saying that,

but these muscles are activated. So, very likable. Oh yeah, I like that. Good job. Yes. I love this smile. So we love that authentic smile. So he's very warm and approachable. He's also making eye contact with the camera, slight head tilt. I would actually say this is very warm, almost too warm.

If he is a doctor or a professor or someone who needs to be taken seriously, I don't know if I'd go to him with my problems. It's a lot of warmth for that photo. And by the way, I want to make this as helpful for folks at home. So think of your impression like a thermostat. You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues. So if you want to add warmth or trust or likability, you can add a head tilt. You can show your hands. Movement is also one. So sometimes you'll see

people who are leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk. That's why all those photographers use wind. Yeah. It actually adds like this weird element of warmth. If you want to dial up competence, power, if you want to be taken seriously, especially if you're in a career where you've been challenged or interrupted or not taken seriously or underestimated, you really want to dial up competence in your profile picture.

Like the cover of my books, I am not smiling. And that is because I'm quite a smiley person and I want people to take me seriously. because I'm quite a smiley person, and I want people to take me seriously. So I made a choice to not smile on my covers. What about this chap? All right. This is a dating app profile photo.

Look, I love it. Okay, this guy has a cat around his neck. And you know what? I love it. Why? Because if you love cats, you're gonna love this guy. If you hate cats, you're gonna swipe. We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose, right?

Like I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat because certain people are gonna love it, certain people aren't gonna like it. He's gonna find his people. We're in Austin, Texas. So it would be weird if he like wore it in London or something like that. Dee, what'd you think?

Okay, so I do not like sunglasses and photos at all. And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin, which is the chemical connection, even through a lens. When you can't see someone's eyes, it puts a little barrier in our head of like, I don't know. I don't know about this person. That's chemically your body being like, I cannot see her eyes. So I'm a hard no on sunglasses. This is like, she's very distant from me. Even though she's a beautiful smile, I can't see the upper cheek muscles

and I can't see her eyes. Does that apply to real life too, the sunglasses point? Like, does it disconnect us from people? You know, I haven't seen research on that. I've only seen research on sunglasses in photos. So I'm going to say in person, I think it's okay. But I will say, like, have you ever been with someone and they like take off their glasses to see you better?

Has that ever happened to you? Yes. It feels good. Yeah, like they can. If you want to show someone, I'm going to really listen to you take off your glasses or roll up your sleeves. So there's also, we know this is a cue is like, let's get into it. I often see like leaders when they're getting into the get into it part of their speech,

they roll up their sleeves. Another one that I like is this one, rubbing your hands together. Okay. So this is a universal get ready cue. If you are about to share something really, really good to your team, you want to go like this. Guys, I got something good today. You would like it.

You would like it if you were in a team meeting. Yeah, okay. Right? It's a universal cue of warming up. So going back then to first impressions. How do I make a really bad first impression? A really bad first impression? Yeah, so we'll do the bad first, then we'll do the good.

You said one of the worst things one can do is to walk up on their phone, on a device, et cetera. OK, so bad is taking up as little space as possible. Yeah. Right? No space between our arms and our torso. No space between our shoulders and our earlobes. The second thing is hidden hands.

So hands in pockets, hand to the table, hands not in shot. We like to see hands especially right away. It makes us feel intention, right? We know what's gonna happen. So I'm like, hi, good to see you. I put my hands, a lot of my hands are in my profile pictures. That's a bad one, isn't it? Hidden hands.

And the last one is avoidant gaze. We really do like to make eye contact within the first few seconds of meeting someone. It makes us feel like someone's not avoiding that oxytocin. It gives us a chemical burst of trust. They even, you know, how you'll do nose sprays full of oxytocin, and it immediately makes them share more, open more, connect more.

Yeah, so we want direct eye contact, visible hands, and a broad body. What about... I call it the triple threat, by the way. The triple threat. That's the triple threat. What about when sat at a table like this? Because I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to people. And I am, I've never said this before, but I'm always really quite conscious about my

body language because I don't want to signal the wrong thing, but because I'm thinking about so many things at once, I'm like doing research while someone's talking, I'm reading my notes, I'm writing sometimes, I'm jotting something down, and I'm thinking about so many things at once, I'm like doing research while someone's talking. I'm reading my notes, I'm writing sometimes, I'm jotting something down, and I'm thinking about the next thing, I'm thinking about the edit. There's a lot going on in my head. I never want them to misconstrue it as like a reflection on them. So how would you recommend that I conduct myself, whether it's as a podcast or in a meeting with a client or whatever, to signal that I'm warm and competent and all the good stuff.

Okay, so first easiest one is you're always angled towards me. I'm so grateful that you don't have us angled at a V. So many podcasts I do are like that, and it is very hard to connect with someone when they're like that. So you're already laying the groundwork of being aligned. In your office, right now, if you work in an office, move your chairs so they're not at an angle towards you, that they're right at you.

That's already gonna set you up for success because I know we're on the same page even if you're looking at something else. Then you wanna think about 60% eye contact. It's very specific. In Western cultures, they find that the ideal, the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60 to 70%. Some East Asian cultures, it's less eye contact, so that's okay. But if you could hit that 60%, that's not 100%.

Especially when I'm making an important point, like you'll often be doing notes, and you'll look up at me when I'm making an important point. That's all I need to know, I got this, keep going. And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point. So you could be talking like this, explaining this, remembering something, but let me tell you, at the very end of my point, that's when it matters. Interesting.

And I think you actually do that pretty naturally. I don't know if you realize you're doing it, but if you're in a meeting or presenting or you're an interviewer, that's actually what matters more, is that at the end of your sentence, you're sealing it with that eye contact. Yeah, because I look away, so I'm doing it now, I look away because I'm struggling with my ideas, trying to articulate them, and then once I've got it, I come back to you and make the point like that.

Yes, and that actually is good. It shows me that you're processing. We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact. We can't do it. And so actually, it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40% you're not looking at me when you're gathering. That actually leaders do that because they're showing I'm authentically coming up with the answer.

It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact because I would feel like it was scripted. That's one of the reasons why I think presenters make this problem. And I, whenever I watch like Shark Tank or Dragon's Den, a big mistake they make is they're so rehearsed, they don't break eye contact and it gives you sort of a robotic feeling. So if you're practicing a presentation, you actually want to have a little bit of like ad lib in there, you want to be processing around cause it shows you're authentically grabbing the information and that shows competence, right?

Highly competent people, they don't need a script because they know their stuff so well, they can just grab it out for you. They can think on the spot. Low competent people are memorized. That is why like the Ted talks that we like the best, the pictures we like the best, they're basically having a really smart conversation with you and you like it. So I like that you're gathering away from me, that you're thinking of a question.

The worst interviews I have are where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so gestures, eye contact, it's okay to make only 60% eye contact. That's the triple threat. The other thing in a first impression that I really like is breaking the script, right? I think in a first impression, it's okay to be like, hey, good morning.

But when we do the, how are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? And you get like that horrible like loop.

I'm going to challenge everyone to try to break the script with how are you. So when someone asks, how are you, don't say good. Don't say busy, but good. Try to answer with like a little bit of humor. Okay. If you can. Now, I'm not funny, so we should take this advice with a grain of salt.

You are funny. But I'm not that funny. But there's a couple things you can do. So one is you can answer with a number. So like, you laughed. I didn't even do it yet and you already laughed. Seven. Most people say seven.

I was gonna say seven. Oh really? Right, so if you're like, someone's like, how are you? And you're like, seven on the 10 scale. Right, like it just, it breaks the script a little bit. I also love when you say what you're wrestling with. So I might be like, just been fighting my inbox all day, but a good 10 out of 10.

Like, sometimes it's good to give like a little bit of context of like what you've been dealing with for the day. Or if you know that you look a mess, you can be like better on the inside than the outside. Better on the inside than the outside. Okay on the inside than the outside, okay. Right, like something that just gets people thinking a little bit, it kind of breaks the script and it makes for a very nice first impression. So first impressions, make sure the conversation doesn't hit a dead end, essentially. And break the script.

Yeah, break the script. Break the script. So like, I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the script, right? Because then you're going to make a way better first impression. Yeah. And that also means not asking, how are you, but instead being like, what's good? It's like when I start a conversation, like anytime, I try never to ask, how are you? I try to say, what's good?

Anything good today? It's a very subtle, subtle change on that. And it, it makes people think for a second in a good way. They're like, oh yeah, what's good? And it totally changes the nature of the conversation. I do this here sometimes. So when a guest comes in, the question that I always ask pretty much everyone that sits down is like, what's front of mind for you at the moment? Is that a good one?

I like that one a lot. I would prefer what you've been looking forward to. Are you looking forward to anything in your life? Is that because it's positive? Yeah, it's juicing excitement. So like, I think our job, if you want to really be a master communicator, is you are gifting good chemicals. You know that phrase, like, leave people better than you found them?

Yeah. I take that quite literally. I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the person. They're making people feel super full of dopamine. Dopamine is like very simplified. Excitement, motivation, energy. They're gifting testosterone. You feel capable, you feel smart.

Wow, you're good at what you do, right? And you leave feeling like, I'm so good, this is for men and women. You're gifting serotonin. Calm belonging. You got this. You can be yourself with me. I give you permission to be yourself. I love you for who you are.

Like I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me, like they tell me everything about their lives, I think it's because I'm like trying to gift them serotonin. I want them to feel like they can be absolutely themselves and I accept them for exactly who they are. So serotonin, dopamine, and testosterone, if we can gift those out, I call it like the chemical cocktail. Like that's the cocktail I want to give to

everyone in my conversation. And that's what master communicators are doing. And how would I give you all those things? Okay, so you break the script by just waking me up, right? Like this could be different. Then you ask, what are you looking forward to? Like if you ask me what's been in front of mind, I'm going to probably give you a negative answer, to be quite honest with you. Do you usually get negative answers to that question? Negative or neutral, or it's typically something work-related. So they'll say, my book tour, I'm trying to get this published, blah, blah, blah.

And you're bored, aren't you? It's somewhat interesting to me because I write it down and then I'll talk to them about it. But I mean, if it was a social conversation, it wouldn't be interesting. Yeah, and I would argue like, you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer, even in this setting. So you're bored, they're bored.

So one, if you're like looking forward to anything, got any fun plans coming up, those are all like gifting little bits of dopamine. Then capitalizing on any moment that I call it a me too moment. I have this series, it's called thread theory. And it's this idea that in conversation, we are throwing threads at each other. So like, if we have a shared thing,

I've thrown a thread, you get it and you pull it. And it's like, you're trying to get even more out of me. The more threads that there are between you and me, the more we like each other and the closer we get. Me too moments create serotonin. When I say, I like X, and you're like, what? I like X too. We're like, like chemically.

And that makes me feel serotonin. It makes me feel calm, belonging. I can be myself. So anytime in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with, or you feel like I have that too, you want to capitalize and be like, thread, me too. How do you stop it feeling like you're making it about yourself though? Because if you said to me, you've got a cyber truck outside.

If you walked in and said, oh, I've got to just bought a cyber truck. And I go, I've just bought a cyber truck. Okay, so there's a big difference between how you said it and how I said it. Okay, so I say, I just got a cyber truck. Oh yeah, join the club. That's what you want me to say? Yeah. I wouldn't say it like that, though.

There is a difference here, because I'm British, and British people are very like, we're very like, I know. You know what I mean? You're so demure. Is that what it is? Demure. We're just very, oh yeah, join the club. Could you imagine? I would have liked it. You wouldn't freak out, now you're saying that.

You would like it because it's so weird. Not because of- I like weird people. Is there anything else in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions? And what I mean by that is really like, how do I then cement and invest in that relationship so I can keep it? Okay, so if you've made a good first impression, you are set up for success. It's great.

If you're making a second impression because you weren't sure how the last one went, right, or you want to kind of build on it further, your best bet is to show them how much they were on your mind. Everyone's number one worry in this world is, did I leave an impression? Am I memorable? That's what we want to know. So the very first thing you want to assure them is, oh, I loved our last meeting. I've been looking so forward to this lunch. Right? So can you assure them that you're so happy to see them, talk to them, hear from them, standing on the phone, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you called. Like that warmth of you were right to call, you were right to text, you were right to

show up. Right? Like if someone texts me, of course, like not if I'm texting them all day long, but if someone texts me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you texted. I will literally say that. I was just thinking of you. Right? Like, oh, I'm so glad you reached out. I always love our conversations. Like that immediate you're good here is serotonin. That's that belonging feeling of like, you're already safe. You're letting someone be themselves right off the bat. What about online first impressions? Is there anything that I need to think about if I'm on, because so much of our lives runs

on Zoom or Google Hangouts now. Yes. Okay. So first, can we talk about just like dating apps? Yes. Sure. Okay. So they've actually done research on this.

You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just, hi, hello, how are you? So like, howdy. If you're in Texas, even if you're not in Texas, howdy, aloha, what's good? Anything that's not that hi or hello is a little bit different. It's going to make you stand out. So if you could- Hey?

Nope. You're defeating the spirit of the study here. Okay. Okay, so- Like not a hey, not a hi, not a what's up, not a how are ya? Okay. But like, can you have like a signature phrase or like... Bingo.

I would take it. You'd take it. Bingo! I'm in your inbox. They study this and they found that there's so much noise. There's so much noise that if you can be the red apple. So this is a story when I was, I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger, that's how I made money.

And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break. And usually it was all red apples or all green apples. And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple, every single camper had to have that red apple. But I would ask them, do you like the red apple better? And they'd be like, no, I just want that one because it's the only one.

And I've never forgotten that in that I think that really special people, master communicators, are the red apple. They're not oranges. They're still fitting in with everyone, but they're just like a little bit different. And that's, I think, how it should be both in business and also in romance is, can you be a red apple? Well, you're still the same. You're not like wacko crazy, but you're like a little different than everyone else.

So like a bingo or a howdy or an aloha or a shalom or whatever it is, I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of peak effect. The peak effect is like you piqued someone's curiosity a little bit. And that that really works. That's why marketing campaigns that are a little different, they always work better. And what about then on Zoom and other sort of business professional environments? Okay, so in Zoom and professional environments, please turn your camera on. Yeah.

Please turn your camera on. This sounds obvious, but more and more people are turning their camera off, especially if you have back-to-back meetings. But if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds, it is a game changer for people's perception of you. So one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative. Here's how this happens.

Can you see me? Can you hear me? Oh, oh, hi. A lot of Zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they're in the middle of like, can you see me? Can you hear me? And they're fixing themselves. And then they make a first impression.

No, your first impression already happened. It happened the moment your camera turned on. Remember your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you, not when you start talking. So your first impression is usually, Hey, morning. So you raised your hand there. I always, I always give a wave or a hi. I make sure my camera is at least three feet away from my nose.

Like I literally have measuring tape to make sure I'm not too close. I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera. And then usually I have a question ready. And here's why. In person, it's so much easier to make conversations, especially around context or like, oh, you know, how was it easy getting here? I loved your Cybertruck. Very hard on Zoom.

And so what happens is you get on and you go, hi. Hi. Weather good where you are? It's like, it's so awkward. Be ready. Be ready with an anecdote or a question. I like an anecdote. So if you've done anything good, interesting, seen anything good or interesting,

I want you to be ready to share it. It sounds like this. Hey, morning. Oh my gosh, I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin. Best breakfast taco in Austin. Have you ever had a breakfast taco? Whatever.

But like I was ready to go with that anecdote. I think that that's how we should pre-start all of our radio calls, is like some small anecdotal story. And that also helps in conversation. Like I believe everyone should have a story toolbox. So in conversation, there are certain topics that will always come up. Weather, traffic, and where you're from.

So here's my challenge. And this is what Master communicators do. Whenever those three topics come up, I want you to have one story about each of them. It could be a trivia, it could be a story, it could be a fact, that you're ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting. When someone asks, where are you from? You should say, oh, I'm from Los Angeles. Interesting fact, interesting story. That little interesting story, like someone the other day said to me, oh, I'm from this place named, maybe Liverpool. And he said, oh, it's where Banksy's from.

And I was like, oh. And we had a whole conversation about Banksy. And I was like, that was it. He said where he was from, but instead of being Liverpool, I'd be like, cool, never been there. He was like, Liverpool, it's supposedly where Banksy's from. I was like, really? But don't we even know who Banksy is?

And he's like, well, we don't know, but he could have been in my high school. We had a whole fun conversation where Banksy's from. I was like, really? But don't we even know who Banksy is? And he's like, well, we don't know, but he could have been in my high school. We had a whole fun conversation about Banksy. And I asked him afterwards, I was like, do you always share that comment? And he's like, yeah, because it creates the most interesting conversation. So when you say where you're from,

have an interesting fact or an interesting story, I read a book about traffic, literally to have interesting stories about traffic. Like for example, in Los Angeles, everyone says, the 101, the five, the 10. That's the only place in the world where we say that. So sometimes I'll even, like someone will be like, oh traffic, and I'll be like, oh so are you a the person?

Do you say the? And we get a whole conversation about. So like I have little things that create a little bit of juice and I'm always rotating them out. So in your phone, create a note called Story Toolbox and have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them.

It is the same stuff. It's like 80, 90% of the time it's the same stuff. It's the same questions. How are you? Where are you? How's the weather? Traffic. I'm constantly adding to that Story Toolbox

and I'm rotating out my facts and trivia because I get bored. What if you like stumble across the same person twice and you don't realize you've hit them with the same story? Because if you, if we do- I don't talk to the same people again. If we did a couple of Zoom calls and you kept coming on going, are you a that person or I'd go, wait a minute.

Like- No, if we were doing regular Zoom calls, you would know that I'm probably going to ask you what's good and you'd probably be pre-thinking about what's good in your life. Like, I have a friend who always asks, what are you learning? And whenever I go hang out with him, I make sure I'm learning something. Like, it actually preps me in a good way. So you would know me for certain questions, and that would, I think, my experience is when you're known for asking better questions, people actually come into the conversation

more excited with better expectations to interact with you. So like be known for it. Like fine, be known for the traffic trivia or like worse comes to worse. Someone says, oh yeah, the thing we talked about that last time and I'll be like, oh my gosh, yes. And then I forgot you're from Ohio. Great. I remember you. How important is the background? On your Zoom videos? Yeah. Pretty important. I also have a thing against like blurred out fake backgrounds.

I don't like when people use a fake background. I think there was actually some Harvard business research on this, but it was during COVID, so it kind of changes the research. But as a human, we get very distracted by fake backgrounds. So please think twice about blurring out your background or putting a fake background around you, like one of those backdrops. The eye, it's like a green screen. You know when you see on a green screen, your eye is like, something is not right.

People will perceive you as more inauthentic. I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you, right? You have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues in Captivate up there, right? Like my books, which I love. And you rotate those books out. So as I'm talking, if I wanted to make conversation with you, I could be like, oh my gosh, yes, Peter Attia's book outlives so good. Did you like it?

What was your biggest takeaway from that? We're like, it gives me gifts of conversation. I also noticed like one time I was looking at Kevin Hart, he was on a zoom call and his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him. And it was like a great conversation starter. And he even had one of the comedians behind him was like holding up his hand like this, like literally in a permanent hello. And I was like, oh my gosh, like Kevin Hart doesn't even realize he's doing the best nonverbal cue there is,

which is palms. Like we love a palm. And what about looking at the camera versus looking at the face of the person? So I try to make them as close as possible. So like just physically speaking, if you can try to make your camera and your and the person as close as possible, it's going to help you be more authentic, right? So like my screen is not over here. I see some people will have the mistake of though they're like, you know, they're off

to the side and then like kind of looking over their shoulder at the camera. Please don't do that. So I have my even like propped up so like your face would be very close to the top of the camera. If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera, I'd be very happy. Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen. Really?

Yeah, yeah. Even though it's not real, our brain is still sort of, oh yeah, they're looking at me, they're talking to me, they're not hiding anything. So 50-50 if you could do it. Now, we were talking a second ago about first impressions, then second impressions, but also dating, profile photos, yesterday or the day before. My team here took you to a bar in Austin, Texas,

and you met two different couples that were going on a first date, and your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date. And on that first date, one member of the couple had an earpiece in so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do. We're going to play some videos for anyone that's able to watch, but you give me the context on what happened and what you observed. I was shocked by these dates. I was shocked because every single person except one hid their true feelings and that did not serve them. So we had the very first date and they were very well matched by the way. Like I liked both of them. What was shocking about this date though is the female,

Ashley, I could not tell if she liked him. I literally had no idea and I was in her ear. So I was whispering in her ear things to say and to ask. I was giving her all the warmth because she looked very cold. You would never have known she was into this guy. You would not have known. She said, oh yeah, I'm really physically attracted to him. I was like, what? You didn't act attracted at all.

And her questions were all very fact based. What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth. So we can watch it if you want. Let's watch him. See. Are you ready to meet your lady? Are you ready? Yeah.

Okay, so what is gonna be your opening line? We gotta prepare our conference starters because we can't do a how are ya? How are ya? We can't do that. What if I started with a who are ya? Okay, that breaks the scripts. I like it.

That, I mean, yeah, that's like what can I give you another one though? Can you consider yeah, what's been good? I remember this could also the same tip if you're to see someone in a grocery store someone in the park I like what's the opener when you it's cold, right? I don't like a how are you? I don't like a what's up, Doc Yeah, weather's great, right? No, no, no, I know no No, so like like what's what's been good or like what feels good to you If you see something you like about her You know free to authentically compliment if right. Yeah, if you're like, oh my gosh, you look beautiful

You know, like that's a good one So I think you can ask like what's the goal you're working on like cash still a little bit and they'll say I mean What do you think you're gonna be awesome forever? That's a very casual way of being like, what's your five-year plan? My goal is a little bit of depth. I know I can make friends with anyone, but I want you to see if there's like an actual connection there. Okay. Okay. And then to see if it's, if you want to connect with her and wait to ask her out at the end of the day. Yeah. So what did you observe that when you watch it back? Okay. So do you see he got nervous?

Yeah. His body like he was, because I knew it's easy for him to make friends with anyone and very likable men sometimes have a sometimes have really a hard time getting serious relationships because they're so likable they can make friends with everyone. They get confused about where the depth is. Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well? It's a defense mechanism and it's also what he's good at. We want to do what we're good at, which is, you know, making a chit chat. A lot of people do the sundates. They'll be like,

where are you from in Austin? No, that's the wrong question. What you ask is, what are your favorite secret spots in Austin? What do you love about Austin? What are the most underrated restaurants in Austin? That is breaking the script, and that happened to them on this date, there was a good five or 10 minutes

of boring fluff because they were on that. I was like, get to the deeper questions. So when you're asking these questions to prepare ahead of time, what's the most underrated thing? What's your favorite thing that would have been better? But he got very nervous when I started, I challenged him on depth. So the next video is the meeting. Feel free to pause it if there's anything pertinent or anything interesting you want to show me. What's your favorite spot to go to around here, though? Um, to be honest, I don't go out very much. Okay, nice. What do you do?

I... Okay. If someone said that to me, I'd assume they weren't interested in me. Exactly right. Okay, so this is called dream killing in conversation. When someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying, I don't do that,

I don't like that, I don't want that, with nothing else left, like she just stopped, I don't, to be honest, I don't really go out I don't like that, I don't want that, with nothing else left. Like she just stopped, I don't, to be honest, I don't really go out that much. And he said to me afterwards, that's the thing I'm most nervous about, is that she sort of shut that down. So when you don't like something,

don't dream kill the conversation. A better way to answer that would be, you know what? I do love to be in my jam jams at home on the couch watching Netflix, but for the right occasion, I can get out and party sometimes. That would have been a better way to answer that question because it's a little bit playful

and it's not totally dream killing his charisma. And watch this, she's gonna act like she's not interested at all, but she's actually very attracted to him. She said that to me. Work. A lot. Tell him something you love.

Tell him something you love. What do I love? What do I love? What I love to do? Work out, be outside, be active. Yeah, these are waters. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was like, I don't know what this is. Always, always do a cheers.

Cheers, Steven. Cheers. Cheers. What does that do? Okay, cheers. It. Cheers. Cheers. What does that do? Okay, cheers. It immediately warmed her up. She was very, very stiff in this.

And I was like, I said to her in her ear, by the way, he did not know, Kendrick, poor Kendrick, he still doesn't know that I was, we never told him. I never told him. Surprise. He didn't know that I was in her ear whispering. She was so stiff, I said, tell him what you love. Because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all.

Because she was so stiff. And then she still, she was like, what do I love? I work out? I just can't believe that she actually liked him. Yes. Because everything about her is giving, I can't wait to leave. This is why we're having a baby crisis.

Is because we're afraid to show that we like someone. She was physically attracted to him and into him. You would never know it. I was the one saying, cheers him, say what you love, ask him about his family. And so I think that this is a crisis because we think we're being obvious, but we are not being obvious.

Yeah. I don't know. I know I was just sitting here like, this is a Tuesday, which is crazy. How long have you been in Austin? Two years. Okay. What?

No, that's great. Right? Like, that's why that didn't work. You just heard it. That's why I don't need to do it on a date. It's a conversational dead end. No numbers questions unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation, you're willing to ask a follow up.

But it was like, how about you? Horrible. How long you been in Austin for? Four years. And then there was a gap. She had no intent at all of asking a follow up question. Right. No intent at all to ask a follow up question.

And he didn't know what to do with it. It's funny, cause when I watched this, I think he really likes her because he's leading the conversation and she's just hitting the ball back. That's right. But actually she was very into it. She just didn't know how just hitting the ball back. That's right. But actually she was very into it. She just didn't know how to hit the ball back. Right.

So if you're going to be in conversation, you want to be a master communicator, by the way, there are drivers and passengers in conversation. This is what I'm researching right now. You actually don't want all drivers, right? You don't want two people asking all the questions, but you have to be a good passenger, but she should have said two years, but actually I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years. Have you noticed that?

Have you been here for a long time? Like she should have added one more thing to not dream kill. Like three years. Okay. Yeah, I'm from Ohio. Okay. Like the Akron area. Okay.

So ask him, what do you love about Ohio? Do you miss Ohio? No. No? Not really. I mean, I'll go back, my whole family's there, right? Can I ask how old you are?? No. Not really. I mean, I'll go back. My whole family's there, right? Can I ask how old you are?

Guess. Oh, OK. Guess 30. 30? Yeah. Why did you say guess 30? OK, so I was giving her a micro-win. So remember, we're trying to gift dopamine, serotonin,

testosterone, very simplified. It was not going great. I was watching, and this is like, oh my God, we're talking about Akron, Ohio. We're in trouble now. So he tried with her. So I knew if she guessed right, it would make her feel good. And I needed her to feel good,

so she would start driving. So she would start driving the conversation. So that's why I knew his age. I'll be 31 in like a week. Okay, I know you're not supposed to, oh wait, you're Burt, so you're an Aries. I'm an Aries too. Me too, moment.

They set this up on purpose. They literally did, yeah. Wait, so what day is your birthday? April 1st. Okay. Oh, on March 29th. What are you doing? Are you serious?

Yeah. I think that's my mother's birthday. What's her body language giving here? Very closed. Yeah. And in... I'd never done this before. I wanted to say to her, open up, laugh more, touch your lips, touch your hair. There are a lot of things that women can do to show I am feeling physically attracted

to you. But I was like, oh, like I wasn't sure she was physically attracted. So here I am thinking, is she physically attracted? If she wanted to show him I'm into you, she could have touched her hair, she could have touched her lips, she could have touched the side of her face. All of those are gestures of like self-touch that show interest, but she didn't show any of that. She also was, see how tight, see how little space she's taking up? Defeated body language, let's say. So very, very closed off. We are going to be in trouble if we can't show that we like someone.

I also want you to notice, as soon as they had the Me Too moment, the thread theory, they both warmed up. Yeah, they did, yeah. Like, once we get a Me Too moment, it's like so much faster to laugh more. She actually like literally physically relaxed. Because we, I love dancing and they like always have a DJ. It's more like clubby rap music here. I love dancing.

I love dancing. Yeah, I love throwing ass. She was gonna let that go, but I was trying to give her a thread. I love dancing and also I'm trying to get her to say love. So a lot of the questions I were like, what do you love about Ohio? Do you love dancing?

Like when you use more words like that, you're actually queuing for that. I think we talked about last time that when you use, like when they had people split up into Wall Street and community, people who were told they were playing the community game actually acted in a more communal way. When you use words like love and excitement and good and looking forward, you actually create those feelings.

So on a date, you want to be using the words that you're trying to create, especially because she actually felt something. She liked him a lot. But even beyond the date, right? In a professional context. Yes. Then it would be like, let's have some wins. Like what's date, right? In a professional context. Yes, then it would be like, let's have some wins. Like, what's good, right? You're trying to have efficiency and productivity and trust and collaboration.

If you want to have a collaborative meeting, literally in your calendar, call it collaboration meeting. If you want to say, hi team, every time you say team, you're priming for team. Right? So those words really matter. I'm kind of like an early bed kind of person. Yeah, no I love that. I'm not. Like every night or just like weekends? I'm extremely extroverted.

I was like, absolutely, let's go. And then it's like, I'm so tired. Yeah. I'm extroverted and introverted. Like once I'm out, I'm probably not going home. Yeah. But then it's like I also love my like alone time. I'm learning a lot.

Okay, so do you hear she's using vocal fry? When you use closed body language, it affects your voice. So I, vocal fry is when you're like, I love going out and I kind of love, right? So she started to go into a little bit of vocal fry here, which is not attractive. We do not like vocal fry here, which is not attractive. We do not like vocal fry. Why is she doing that? I think she's doing it because she's so closed.

It's very hard to get good vocal power when you're that closed, right? So you can hear it here. Yeah. Wake up and it's next week. Yeah. Who did that? But then it's like, I also love my like a long time.

I'm learning to love it more. Yeah. We can still go get a drink if you want it. If you're not busy. Or go another day after your birthday. Okay. If you're interested. We can do that after my birthday.

Yeah. Can I ask a question on that? Yeah. He seemed to bottle it. There. He said we can go get a drink if you want to, if you're interested. Or we can go. But I, it's cause she didn't immediately be like, yeah.

No, I got a little angry after this date. Tell me you'd love to go out. Just like. No, I would love to go out when I get back. Yeah. Yeah. Let's make it happen. That's in about 45 days.

Because you're going to Europe. Yeah, for 30 days. Maybe something sooner. Are you leaving going to Europe. Yeah, for 30 days. Maybe something sooner? Are you leaving, like, right on your birthday? No, I'm leaving on the 21st, but that's in 10 days, and I haven't finished booking the whole entire trip. Yeah, and you gotta run those numbers. Yeah.

She rejected him. I was real mad after this date, because I asked her, are you attracted to him? Yes. Did you like him? Yes. Did you have fun? Yes. Would you like to go out with him again?

I'm real busy. I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. He's fun, you're attracted to him, and you're too busy. Busyness is not a mark of success. Busyness is going to prevent you from finding your person. And this is a problem we have. We're so busy with our self-care rituals and our workouts and our work

that we are missing opportunities for connection. And connection is the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. We have to stop saying we're too busy to connect with good people. Was she actually too busy? Like, or is she scared or something? Because I just don't understand that. I literally think she thought she was too busy. And I was like, get your priorities straight. And so this is not even if you're looking for your person. I also see this with friendships.

Friends where we put our friendships last. But actually, if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis, who do you want? Your support system and your friends. We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life, especially with good people. And so it made me angry because I thought this could be a great person for you. Do you know what's really wild is had they met in a village 100 years ago, they'd be married. Married. Babies. But I guarantee if you hadn't intervened in this situation and this wasn't, if you weren't sort of coercing them to like to hang around

With each other then never see each other again Yeah And I said after after that mics were off I was like go get him girl go get him and they did and they sat in the bar They chatted over the entire hour and they walked out together. Yeah, they left together By the way, let's get some da OC babies I know, can you imagine? I will be an officiant at the wedding. We can do it together.

I imagine. Imagine if they... But it's so, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We were talking about it as a team. I was saying, one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options. Too many choices. Yeah, so jam study.

Too many choices. Do you know the jam study? Yeah, yeah. You have 20 jams on a table. People will pick none, there's too many. When there's only three, people buy more. Yeah. Very simple.

And this is going on in dating at the moment. Do you know what it was? A friend of mine, we were having a debate actually in the room over there a couple of days ago, and they were saying to me, I just need to meet more guys. And I'm sat there thinking, your actual job is networking. Like, you get paid to meet people. You know, more people than anyone I know.

I could say right now, I could say to this person, I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas, and this person should go, I know the guy. So I was saying like, the issue might be that you know, you have too many options. Too much jam. Too much jam. Okay, so too many choices is one.

But I also think like we are so accidentally, we become so obsessed with our morning routine, our evening routine, our rituals, our self-care. Self-care wasn't even the thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago. So what happens is I see rigidity. There's a new rigidity happening for both men and women, but a lot of women too, where, oh, I can't go on that date because I have to do my morning routine.

I can't do that thing because I have to get my workout in. And I think that we are putting our connections in the last place. When actually, if we want to know what's really good for our health and our longevity, it's our relationships. We get the most of the good chemicals, of the good happy laughs and the good, happy laughs and the endorphins with other people, and we keep putting it last.

You must meet people though that they've been on like a hundred dates and they tell you that they just can't find the person. And you go a hundred dates, like a hundred years ago, you wouldn't even know a hundred people and you'd be happily married. Yes. Yes. I also think our checklists are getting in the way. Checklist. So many single people. I know they'll tell me they have a list. They have a list of things that they really want. When I met my husband, I did not have a list, but there was just a connection there.

And even though we were very different on paper, it just worked. And so I think that when people have a checklist, it actually blinds them to seeing a connection right in front of their face. And she said to me, I don't know if this is on camera or not, so hopefully it's okay if I share it, but she's like, you know, I just, I don't know if he's as career oriented as I was like, that's really important to me. And I knew that was on her list.

On her list, on her internal list, career is right up top. Now they didn't even talk about career. So I said, well, do you, did you even know what he does? Well, no. So she was judging him based on his personality. That's it. And it didn't check the list. And so what could happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional.

What do you do? Check. Where are you from? Check. So you're trying to get through a list. You want kids to check. So these checklists, I think, are creating a lot of rigidity. And then you add in the busyness trap, which is, I'm so successful, I'm so busy.

Busy is not a mark of success. Do you think there's also an element that we've got more and more ambivalent with? The more and more we date, the more it becomes transactional, the more we show up without passion or interest or curiosity. I don't know if that's ambivalence. I think that is numbness. Like people have gotten really attractive. I don't know if you've noticed this.

They have. My goodness. People are so pretty. Like I'm on Instagram and I'm like, how does everyone look so good? Like I didn't really know anyone with a Nate Pack when I went to school. Like, I'm on Instagram and I'm like, how does everyone look so good? Like, I didn't really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school. Like, did you? Like, no. No.

Because that wasn't really a thing. I'm like old, right? Like, no one had that. There was no social media. So like, people had like, you know, normal looks. Now people are extremely attractive. And so I think that the bar has gone up so that we're all like numb to how beautiful people are, how funny people are, how kind people are because we've been on a thousand dates or the funniest

best thing they ever did is on their Instagram and we saw it. So anything else is like, huh, seen it. Like nothing is impressive anymore. Like I, there's two challenges I recommend for people who are in like kind of a funk. Like if you're in like a, you're burnt out or you're feeling lonely or you're like, things are not working, there's two challenges you could consider.

The first one is really hard. It's the no mirror challenge. It's you go 30 days without looking in a mirror. Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like, and it's especially powerful for women. I did it for 30 days. And I went, you have to do all your normal things. You have to go to meetings. You have to go out without looking in a mirror, which means usually you don't wear makeup. You don't do your hair. You kind of just go out as you are. First, you realize that people still like you, even if

you don't look perfect. So no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships, your true friends are. The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge, which is if you don't have any dopamine from your phone, you have to go get dopamine oxytocin

from in-person relationships. So if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone, and you have to go out in person, you actually do. Like I remember when I used to travel for work, and I'd get to a city and there was nothing to do. Like there was no phone in my hotel,

I did not have an iPad. You could read a book or you could try to go out. And that's what I would do. I would like get to a city and I'd be like, well, I have nothing to do in the hotel room. There's literally nothing to do. I had my book or I could go to the hotel bar. I could go walk around the city.

And I met more people in that time of my life than I do now, even though I'm connected to more people than ever. I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago, which links to what you're saying. Someone said to me that much of the cause of the in-cell culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games and the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment, the sense of building. It also gives them the like dopamine hit when you like win a sword or some coins or something. And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being a workaholic.

Like if I'm working all day, every day on a screen, and I'm constant, which is what I do, when it comes to going out and meeting people and networking, for me it's like hell. And I'm wondering if there's a link there. I'm like, maybe if I wasn't on the screen for like 12 hours a day, I'd have more dopamine left over to go speak to somebody.

Dopamine and also the energy flip wouldn't be so massive. The energy that you're using on your computer is very much output, right? Like you're putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind. When you go out, it's a feedback. It's back and forth. Yeah. Go having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring. And if you already get dopamine from your screen, what's the motivation for going out in person?

There's only downside. My computer has never energized me, but these conversations always do. Yeah, why would you go out? You're already having the best conversations you can do, and you're in control. And look, I don't know, just saying. I think you like control. Do you think I like control?

In what context would you think I like control in? The reason I bring up the control thing is, if you are on social media, you are in complete control. You decide how often you scroll, you decide where you click, you decide when you're done with something, you just exit their video. Well, you know, in conversation, if I don't like your answer, I can't go off. I can't turn your volume down. I can't double click on your like. I actually have

to sit and listen to you. And I think that, you know, if you're in control of your conversations and even like at this table, you are in control. Like I'm talking a lot, but like you could interrupt me anytime you want and I will answer whatever question you ask me. And so I wonder, don't be mad at me. If in real conversation, like, I could ask you anything that I want. Like right now, I have a thousand questions for you, but I'm trying to not ask them. Ask me the questions.

Well, I asked you the one about control. If you didn't really answer, you had to step back to me. You don't think you're a control freak? Probably. Okay, thank you. Yeah, probably. It's all context dependent, because when you said control freak, I was Okay, thank you. Yeah, probably. It's all context dependent because when you said control freak, I was like, well, I don't have any control in that part of my life.

That's like a democracy. But typically in business, I think that I'm a control freak. Yeah, that's why you're successful. I think if you ask my team, they'd say, yeah, he's a control freak. Am I a control freak? Am I, yeah. He's laughing. He was already laughing about it.

The answer to my question is yes. Thank you, Jack. You're welcome. I'm a control freak. This is a learning system. No, I am. Yeah. So I think, look, I don't know, but my guess would be why you don't want to go out with

people is because you have to give up control and you have to be in a conversation where you might be asked something, it might be boring or you don't like it. And like, why? Why? I do struggle. I really struggle with like, going to networking events and stuff. I really struggle with that stuff. I don't love a networking event, but I've found that if I have a very specific goal, it's better. So like, for example, if I, like I'm researching my next book,

I'm looking for conversational case studies. So if I'm going to the event and I'm like I'm researching my next book, I'm looking for conversational case studies. So if I'm going to the event and I'm like, okay, tonight I'm going to try a new question and see how it goes. You know, I'm then, I'm like, okay, I have a purpose. Or if I'm like, I'm going to practice some new jokes. Or if I'm like, I'm looking from a new, you know, business inspiration.

Like that helps me. So I think no one really likes networking events, but if you have a goal, it makes it a little bit better. Just for a second, I want to talk about a company I've invested in and who sponsored this podcast called Zoe. Like me, many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep, but how many of you understand how your body handles food? Metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food, and we all react differently. So Zoe created a test to help you understand how your body responds.

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nutrition program to help you make smarter a few choices that support your health. That's soe.com with code STEPHEN10. We're talking about business there. If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business, are there any ways that I can become a little bit more... I guess there's different types of leaders that struggle with different things, but how do great leaders communicate? What do they do well? Oh, this is my favorite topic.

As a leader, especially if you're trying to get, meet people, new people especially, your what do you do needs to be I am a who helps. A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections. And so they'll be very either like intellectual with their answer. So like, or very vague. So like I've heard business leaders say, oh, you know, I run a tech company. Hmm. That is a dream killer for a conversation.

People don't know what to do with that. So what you're better off saying is I have a tech company and we help aspiring cooks. So this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario. Yeah. If you click on the first link there with the gentleman whose name is... Tim. Tim. Oh yeah, Tim.

I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession. I love Tim. So Tim is my person, okay? Tim is my person. Like he, let me tell you about Tim. So Tim is a code monkey slash software engineer, which we'll watch that video in a second. He is highly technical. He's very kind.

He loves what he does. And on the date, he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time. And I didn't know. I even said to Jack, I was like, I think he's into her. And I asked him afterwards, I said, are you into her? And he said, no. And I was very impressed with him

because he still showed warmth, congeniality, and kindness, even though he wasn't physically into her. And I was like, this is magic. I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward. And I was like, ooh, Tim, if we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth, you are gonna find your person.

And so I love Tim, we can watch his interaction. The first clip of Tim there, I thought was fascinating. Yeah, that one there, yeah. Okay, you're gonna have a great date. First, can I help you out with some advice? Yeah. Okay, so ignore the cameras completely. Okay. You're making great eye contact, which I love. She's probably going

to ask you what do you do? Okay. What is your answer to that question? I am a code Mikey or a software engineer. Okay, cool. So anytime I meet a software engineer, it's a good answer, but it's a conversational dead end. Yeah. Because unless I'm a software engineer, I don't know what to say. So I'm like, so what I want you to do is actually create a hook. So you're going to say, so what kind of coding do you do? I do a lot of backend stuff. That's probably too much. Nope.

Nope. Don't even know what that is. So you have to think of a hook to give me so that you don't have this. What do you do? Software engineer. What do you do? Teacher. Cause we have to have a, we can't, you can What do you do? Software engineer. What do you do? Teacher. Cause we have to have a, we can't, you can't say,

I'm a software engineer. Do you like art? We can't do that, right? How long have you been doing it? How about that? I've been doing it for five to six years and been loving my team so far. Do you lead a team?

I hope to one day, but not right now. But you love your team. Okay, so I think that that could be your hook. So I think you could say like, I'm a code monkey, AKA a software engineer. The best part of my job is playing with code all day but also like hanging out with my team. Yes. Then you're giving me a lot of hooks that I can then say next. Any body language questions for me? Your body language looks great. You're making eye contact. I love your visible hands. You

already watched my Steven interview. Oh, sometimes. Okay. Perfect. So I think it's great. Mutual laughing is really good too. It's like that's great. If you're ever nervous, just. Perfect. So I think it's great. Mutual laughing is really good too. Thank you. That's great. If you're ever nervous, just laugh. Okay. Yeah. It's going to go really well.

Okay. You got this. Okay. So this is exactly what happens with highly competent folks is they have an answer to the question that's just the answer. That's not how good conversation works. Master communicators make it very easy for people to ask a follow-up question or to get hooked in. So whatever your answer is as a leader,

you wanna give people enough hook to be able to be like, oh, I wanna know more about that. Software engineer didn't do that for Tim. Now her response to this question is terrible. Terrible, did you see what happened in the date? No. Oh my goodness. So what do you do?

Cheers. Cheers to you as well. I am an AI consultant and I make tech content. Oh, okay. Yes, in the tech space. In the tech space? Yes. What about you? I am a code monkey.

Code monkey? Yeah. Oh no. No, software engineer. No, I love my job. Tell him something good. OK. Yeah, we love Code Monkeys.

I used to be a Code Monkey. No way. Yeah. For like six years, seven, maybe. Yeah. Did you like it? I did, but OK, I thought I liked liked it and then I realized I didn't. No way.

Yeah. It was like one of those things where after it's over you're like, wait a second, I wasn't that happy. I have to say, I don't think he should call himself a code monkey. Yeah, it's demeaning. Yeah, and also people don't know what it is really. I didn't even really know what it was. I was like, what?

But it sounds kind of, her reaction was telling, she went, oh no. I know, no. And so she says, oh no. So first of all, I said to her afterwards, why did you do that? If you disagree with someone, you can disagree with them, but then give them something else. So she was basically like, oh no. And then he's like, yeah, I love what I do. Yeah, but I think he has responsibility there because he shouldn't describe himself as a

monkey anything. You sound like you are a, like a involuntary slave to something against your will. Totally. If I said I was a podcast monkey, you wouldn't think, oh amazing, I'm so happy for you, would you? No, I'd be like weird. Exactly. It's the word monkey that they're adding that'm so happy for you, would you? No. I'd be like, weird. Exactly. It's the word monkey that they're adding that makes it seem painful.

I think you're right. He came up with a better answer. And this is the takeaway for leaders is what question are you asked all the time? I know people in business are asked the same questions all the time, either networking or in their business pitches. I always think this when I watch Dragon's Den or Shark Tank is like, you knew this question was coming. You want to have a really, really good answer. And so making sure that you're ready for the answer,

and the more stories you can use, the better. That's why I want you to start that note in your phone of all the stories of all the different topics that come up. It's so important to have good answers with those questions that you know are coming your way. What's a great answer then? Give me an example of a great answer. So if I'm the CEO of a media company, what's a great answer?

If someone says, what do you do? Yeah, I'm the CEO of a media company. So you want to start with clarity. So what is it exactly you do? I don't like people who have like these crazy weird metaphors for like, right. Right, so tell them what you do. I'm the CEO of a media company and, you know, we work with amazing clients like. So tell me who's the best client you worked for,

the most interesting client you worked for, what's the most interesting project you worked for? Like, tell me that story or tell me how you moonlight. So if your job is boring, be like, oh, you know, I'm a CEO of a media company, but I garden on my free time. Like, give me the side hustle so I can say, oh, what kind of media?

Or tell me about the gardening. So give an interesting story about who it is you work for or give me a side hustle that's really interesting or passion. And I heard you say that using the word because as a leader is important to getting people to come with you. Humans need reasons. When there is a reason, even if it's a silly reason, it helps us feel more motivated.

So it was a very, very silly study that was done that looked at this where they had people go up to a copy machine in a library and ask, can I make copies? Now, everyone who's in the line for the copy machine has to make copies. They found that people who went up to the line to cut the line and said, excuse me, can I make some copies?

They got rejected. They were like, no, dude, get in the back of the line. We're all making copies. But if someone said, excuse me, can I make some copies? They got rejected. They were like, no, dude, get in the back of the line. We're all making copies. But if someone said, excuse me, can I make copies? I really have to copy this. Like with a reason, people were more likely to let them cut, even though it was exactly the same thing as the first thing. The point of the study was to show that if you have a because,

even if it's a silly because, people are more likely to do things for you. I don't love this idea, but I think the important point for us is, you want to know your why. That's why I said, tell people who you help. So if you're a CEO of a media company, who you help is your most interesting client.

Or if you're a life coach, don't just say, I'm a life coach, or I'm a consultant. I'm a life coach, I help women who really want to get their nutrition under control. Then I know who you work for. That's your why, and that gives someone a reason. Or, you know, I really love to work with you. I think that I could really, really change your nutritional outlook

and put you in more control of your nutrition. That because, even though it's implied, even though I already heard it, it hooks someone in to go, ah, if they have a why, I can buy into that why. And I don't think he did a very good job on that. However, he was very warm with her, even though he wasn't into it. I think that was very respectful. How are either of them supposed to know

if the other person is attracted to them? Exactly. This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. The number one thing that is causing loneliness is we are withholding our liking, both with friends and in romance. With all of these daters, none of them, 0%, showed any kind of obvious liking. How are we going to have babies?

How are we going to have marriages if we're withholding our liking? How are we going to have friends if we don't know if someone likes us? I think we should be going around showing, amplifying our likes to people that we're with. So how do I signal that I like someone? And how do I know if they like me? Okay, so verbally I think it's very easy, right? You can be very direct and be like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun.

So like my magic phrases, right? If someone is interesting, funny, likable, fun, say in that moment, ah, this is so fun. This is so interesting. Being with you is always so interesting. So that's one way you can do it is affirming the adjective that you're already feeling and saying it out loud. Right, like I think that Kendrick was very funny.

And I actually said to him in our like pre-interview, I was like, oh, you're really funny. That must be a double edged sword. He was the first guy. The first guy, yeah. I said, you're really funny. And that made him feel really good. I was like, oh yeah you're really funny. That must be a double edged sword. He was the first guy. The first guy, yeah. I said, you're really funny. And that made him feel really good. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I am.

And I was like, I think that's good, but also probably it's harder to get depth. He's like, yes, that's true. So if someone is funny, interesting, delightful, a good conversationalist, tell them. That's the first thing is like, don't withhold that. We don't tell people, do we? Never.

We don't tell people. It's just thinking about a meeting I had last week and I was thinking, God, if I had started that meeting just by telling the person what I thought of them, really positive thing, it would have completely probably made them feel good. Yes. It goes back to your point about giving them serotonin or... And it makes you more likeable.

Like we like people who like us. So the more obvious you are with your liking actually just makes you more likeable. So affirming them, making sure that they know that you were thinking of them. So like, I was just thinking of you, I was so looking forward to this, I've been looking forward to this all day. And then nonverbal liking. So for men, vocalizations, hmm, ah, oh, hmm, we love those. We love a triple nod, we love a head tilt, we love a lean.

All of those, see? Oh, you know what? There was something funny that I read recently, which is women list humor as a number one trait they want in a man. Men don't care as much about humor in a woman. They want a woman who laughs at their jokes. Of course. Which I thought this was so good and so helpful that for a man, yes, it's good if you can

work on being funny because women do like it. But if you're a woman, you actually don't have to be that funny. You just have to be willing to laugh. And that brings me back to liking. Being an easy laugher, like being ready to laugh is one of the most likable complimentary things you can do for someone else. That was good. Thank you. Was this real or not real?

We like it. I like it. You can't even tell. That's a very believable laugh. It was good. There's sometimes people who will like withhold their laughing or like, they'll be like, oh, that's funny. Right? So being an easy laugher is also like the fastest way to tell someone I like you. When we laugh, we are absolutely sure we like someone. So nonverbal and verbal liking is like very important. What if you're not funny? Because a lot of people, we've sort of categorized ourselves

as being a funny person or not funny person. So is there a way if you're not funny to be funny? Yes. And it's being the best passenger ever. If you're not a joke teller, the joke teller is the driver, right, in a conversation. They're telling funny stories, they're telling funny anecdotes, they're very funny. They're driving. Well, drivers need passengers to laugh at their jokes. So you are going to be the best passenger ever. You're going to laugh at the joke, you're going to bang on the table.

I love table bangers. You know, I have people in my life who are not very funny, but they love to bang on the table when I tell a funny joke and that makes me feel so good. They don't need to be funny, I'm happy to try. So if you're not funny, just be very good at hyping up other funny people. You also could be a curator of funny.

You find the best funny GIFs, you find the best funny clips, you share the best funny posts. You don't have to be funny to be a curator of funny. Like, I have a friend who's not that funny, but he has the best clips and memes that he sends me. And so I think of him as funny, even though he's never told a joke. He's just passing on other people's funny. Totally, but it's associated with him.

But that does make him funny, because he knows how to select funny. Because I've got a friend who sends, the worst gifts. But it's not funny? They're like the never funny ones. But doesn't it make you laugh? That was like five gifts. You know what I mean? The gifts are so strange. Oh my God, I'm in a sad soul.

I've got one friend, my friend actually sends five gifts, but I've got this other friend who I shan't name. Please don't name him. No, no, just in case someone's listening. He literally sends not funny gifts. We've all got a friend that sends like the bad meme and you just like, they drop it in the chat and everyone's like... Thumbs up.

You know? But like doesn't it make you kind of laugh? Don't you love them for it? I love them, but I think, could they improve their meme game? Yeah, like I wouldn't take the risk. I haven't hit me fire emojis in a long time. I wouldn't be that high conviction. Okay, if that was them, if that was me, if I'm like, I'm not that funny,

I can learn to be funny. Do you think you can learn to be funny? I think I have. I think I've learned to be a little bit funny with my sense of humor. I think I'm taking improv class. Like really, really taking improv class. A lot of humor is just trying things and seeing if they land. So if you're not funny and you want to be and something to go to work on, take an improv class and work on being funny on stage. I also think you can study funny people and see how they make their jokes.

Like, you can have the same jokes. For example, I have a friend who whenever he's over at our house and I say, babe, it's my husband, he goes, yes. And it's always funny. It's always funny. It's the only joke he really makes, but I love it. And so I think you can also have like sort of jokes you've figured out that you just use over and over again. And touch. Is that a cue of interest?

Yes, I love touch, but you have to be a little bit careful with it because if you do it inauthentically or awkwardly, it's like a total fail and looks terribly, horribly wrong. I love a high five. Like I love like, oh, my gosh, that was great. Yes. Oh, my gosh, we're both into that. Like, I love like you're making a high five. I love like, oh my gosh, that was great. Yes. Oh my gosh, we're both into that. Like, I love like, you're making a funny face. Only you can pull off high fives.

What? Like, I don't know whether this is a British thing or not, but if I started high fiving people in meetings, people would think I was very strange. No, I think people would like it. No, I think it's, I think people have like a model of you. Okay. Okay. I think they understand like the upper limits of I think it's... I think people have like a model of you. Okay. I think they understand like the upper limits of your enthusiasm when you're excited, you

know, your playfulness. I think high-fiving... It's outside your bubble. Jemima. Do you know Jemima out there? Of course. She could high-five. She'd get away with it.

Of course. Because that's like... I think I have high-fived Jemima. There you go. Yeah. Okay, so, all right. Find your thing. You have a flavor, right? Everyone has a flavor. Your flavor is not high-fiving, but it's probably something else, like a dry sense of humor. In fact, they did a study where they looked at

warriors and not warriors, like neurotics and not neurotics. Neurotics are known for making self-deprecating jokes, and we like it about them. Like they're constantly making fun of themselves, and we like it, whereas low neurotics, people who are not warriors, who are like really confident, they love to make jokes about other things, but never about themselves.

So like everyone has like their flavor, and that's good, you got to find it. And you should study people who are like you, right? Like there has to be, like I love to watch like those talk shows like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel or whatever. And I pay attention to the interviews that have more than one laugh every 30 seconds.

So my goal on the keynote, like I give a lot of keynotes for organizations, I try to have a laugh every minute, if I can. I think that if you have a laugh every minute, you're considered funny, and that actually opens up the brain to more learning. So on interviews, I pay attention to who are the interviews,

what are the interviews where they're getting a laugh every 30 seconds, 30 to 60 seconds, and I'm paying attention to how are they doing it. And that is how I've learned to be funny. Like, for example, like a really easy one for humor I've learned is like, if you have like one, two, three things, and the third thing is weird, people almost always laugh. So if you're like, oh, you know, Texas is great.

What's the land of tacos, cowboy hats, and hot girls? Like if you make the third thing a weird one, people kind of like, ha, like they think it's funny. And so like, if you have, like, you can begin to play with those things if you learn, but I've noticed that as a pattern, just like anecdotally by watching people. So I think that you could find someone who's like you. Like you should find a British smart guy. Who's a British smart guy?

Who's funny? Jack? Jack smart. Jack. And just like see what kind of jokes they're making. I bet those jokes will work for you too. They do. Yeah, yeah.

I still like steel jokes from British marketing. For sure. It's like Ed networks. I also think there was a study that was done about like charisma. And we're talking about master communicators, especially leaders. I work with a lot of leaders. And what I tell them is you can actually channel your role model that will completely change your body language.

They asked presenters to present on stage a little one minute presentation, which by the way, very hard to do if you're not a presenter. So they have, have them give a little presentation on stage. And they took them off and they said, okay, now we want you to channel Steve Jobs and give another presentation. And don't tell anyone what you're doing, but just in your mind, just channel him. When they got on stage, they were more charismatic. They use more vocal variety. They use more on stage, they were more charismatic, they used more vocal variety, they used more hand gestures,

they were more confident. They spent almost double the amount of time on stage, and they liked it more. Simply by channeling Steve Jobs. So I share this because I think you don't necessarily have to be funny or charismatic on your own, but if you're channeling the most funny person you know, or the most charismatic person you know,

it can transform your vocal and nonverbal cues to be more like that person. Micro expressions. Yes! Okay. I feel like when I ask you a question, every question is your favorite question. I have some that are not my favorites, but you haven't asked them yet. Okay, good. This is what got me into this work, was actually micro expressions. So there are many people, especially if you have narcissists in your life, who misinterpret

neutral expressions as negative. So one of the problems I had early on that caused me to be awkward is I thought everyone hated me. I thought everyone was angry at me. So I'd misinterpret the expression. I would think they hate me, which made me even more awkward. It was a very bad cycle. So one of the first things I discovered with this work where I was like, why doesn't everyone

know this? I was 20 years old and I stumbled upon this idea that some of our expressions are universal, that across cultures and genders and races we make the same facial expressions for the same emotions. Now, there's some controversy about micro expressions and how universal they are, but there's seven that we've found have a lot of universal applications, and I would love to teach you those seven.

Please. Okay. Let's actually start with fear. So fear is a universal response, and when we make this face, it helps keep us safe. It's when we widen our eyes so our eyelids, our upper whites show, we raise our eyebrows up, and we usually open our mouth, like that.

The reason we make this face innately is because if we see a tiger, like back from caveman days, our mouth opens, takes in oxygen, and opens in case we have to yell for help or run for our lives. Our eyebrows and our eyelids lift up so we can take in as much of the space as possible. The safest face I can make as a human is this one. Right, I can say anything, I can take in oxygen, I can see as much as possible. That is why we make that expression when we feel fear.

When we see it, and you see it a lot in business environments, you are spotting, oh, I just tapped into a little bit of nervousness. And it typically happens around confusion. So I will sometimes be giving a presentation and I'll notice someone will go, and I know I just said something that they didn't like or they made them nervous

or that makes them feel a little bit afraid. And I can say, this makes sense. Are we all good? Let me rewind and re-explain that again. So I spot the fear and I immediately address it. So what you wanna look for is those upper whites of someone's eyes. That's how you know that someone just triggered, you triggered a little bit of nervousness you wanna look for is those upper whites of someone's eyes. That's how you know that someone just triggered,

you triggered a little bit of nervousness in them. When you say upper whites of someone's eyes, what you mean? I literally mean the upper whites up here. So not lower. Like when I'm afraid, my eyes peel up so you can see the upper whites of my eyes. It's very unnatural to do that, right?

Like you would never do that normally. We do that when we're actually feeling afraid. Now I tend to raise my eyebrows up to show like a punctuation, but this is like, it's a much bigger expression. Yeah, so when you see it, make sure that you immediately address it so you calm that fear.

Okay, so fear is the first one. The second one that I wanna talk about is disgust. So disgust is a very negative emotion. We make it when we don't like something. So it's when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth. Yeah, it's his face. We do it to inhibit our nasal passages, like when we smell something bad or taste something bad.

But interestingly, we also do this when we don't like something we hear or see. I see this a lot with lie detection. So we do a lot of lie detection research. And I've noticed lying makes people feel dirty. We do not like to lie. And so people will often lie as, they'll make the disgust expression as they're lying. So I'll say, you know,

so what do you think of the new guy? Oh yeah, yeah, you know, he's pretty good. And they hold this expression up. Look for secret disgust if you ask someone a preference-based question. If they are lying, they will often show disgust because they're literally disgusted with themselves for having to make that distinction. So it's an inhibitor and you always want to look up here. We don't do that naturally, right?

We don't do that naturally at all. So that's a really good one to look out for. Also you can predict behavior better with disgust, right? So if you ask someone a question and they go, you know that they're not in a good head space, that's when you immediately want to give permission. Hey, look, I'm on your side. I'd rather just know what you really think.

I have prevented lies by giving someone full permission to just tell me the truth. Yeah, I think I pull that sometimes when I don't want to do something. So someone might say, do you want to go to this restaurant? I go, hmmm. Yeah. And you don't even realize you're doing it because we make it accidentally. It looks like a mulling, but actually I've given away that I actually don't want to go.

And why not be in relationships where we can say, hey look, we're good, we don't have to go to dinner. I'd much rather say that. Okay, that's disgust. Anger is a really interesting one. So anger, they did computer-generated faces, and they found that when you make the components of anger, it makes your face look stronger.

People perceive you as stronger. So the reason we make this from an evolutionary perspective is because when we are angry, it makes us look physically strong, which makes sense before we get into a fight. So anger is when we usually tense our lids, we pinch our shoulders together and we harden our lips. And we often jut our jaw out. So jut your jaw, like before a fight, people often will be like,

what's up, what's up? They jut their jaw out because it makes you look stronger. It's a way of like showing territorial gestures. And we also tense our lips and tense our eyes. This makes us see better. So right before a fight, you look confused. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm trying to... Okay.

So, so, um, harden your lips. Yep. I thought I had a heart on my lips. Oh, you actually did it perfectly. Just a second ago. Yeah. Yeah. And then you see those vertical lines appear and then

tuck your, tuck your chin out at me. Yeah. That's like, what are you doing? I don't like this. And if you hold that expression, you'll begin to feel angry and defensive. Isn't that weird? Yeah.

So it makes you look strong. That's why we make that face. I always look out for in the business environment, you don't often see that full anger, right? But you will often see a chin jut. So if I'm like in a meeting or I'm a team call and I'm looking at someone goes, Yeah.

I know that I've just made them a little bit angry. Typically in anger, people do two things. They go on the offensive or the defensive. I want to prevent either. So when someone's angry, they go, it's not my fault, it's your fault. Offensive. Or they go on the defensive. Not my fault, I don't want that.

Right? So they'll often attack or they get very defensive. I want to disengage that completely. So I'll say, hey look, we're on the same page. If you see someone in anger, you want to immediately go into shared, mutual understanding, mutual goals. Okay, so that's anger. And let's talk about a good one, which is happiness.

So happiness we've talked about before, which is the only true expression of happiness is when the happiness reaches all the way up into our upper cheek muscles, all the way up here. I know I've tried so hard with the smiling thing since we last met, but it's really not going well for me. I know. But when you are happy, like when you laughed earlier authentically, it does it automatically. It already does it.

So it's this upper cheek muscles when we reach those upper cheek muscles. Don't fake smile. I'd rather you real smile. That looks good. Does it actually? Yeah, yeah, it was good. Oh, yes, I'd rather you real smile. That looks good. Does it actually? Yeah, yeah, it was good. Oh yes, I like it. I'm always on the lookout for fake smiles, right?

Like especially in the work setting, is if someone, especially in sales, I do a lot of sales trainings, if someone's like, oh yeah, I love this, but they don't love it, you're not done selling, like keep building your poor. So you're looking for the absence of real happiness, that's what you really want to look for.

And that's really, you said it's about this section. Yeah, this section of your face. So this should go up. All the way up, yes. And you, remember anyone can fake smile. It's all in your upper cheek muscles. All in your upper cheek muscles, okay. Here, yeah, like that.

That's it. That's why you have to be careful with Botox because there's a lot of, I could talk a lot of Botox if you want to, but when people Botox their smile wrinkles, they actually feel less happy. So there's a feedback hypothesis of when you show an emotion, you actually begin to feel the emotion. So people who have Botox or smile wrinkles can't make a true happy face and actually feel less happy.

It's also the same with negative emotions. So if you Botox your anger, you'll actually feel less angry. They've started to use it for anger management, as if you botox your anger muscles, you actually are less volatile. So it's all kinds of things that happen with our face when we begin to change it. Damn.

Okay, so that's anger. Sadness. Yeah. Sadness is the most contagious of all the expressions. So sadness is the hardest one to fake. It's really hard to do. So the first thing is you pull your mouth down into a frown and then you puff out your lower lip. And then you pinch your eyes together and kind of droop your lids.

Uh-huh. Uh-oh. Made you yawn. You know what's funny? Is if you make a sadness expression, it will either make you yawn or cry. Or your eye is watering. It worked. I think you yawn or cry. Or your eyes watering. It worked. I think the yawn made the eyes water.

But it's all part of the same system. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that weird how that happens? So you know you've made a good facial expression or a good sadness expression when you actually begin to tear up. They found that when babies want attention, they pout out their lower lip.

So we find it quite cute. Right, when babies do that, we're like, oh, we need to help you. So it cute, right? Like when babies do that, we're like, oh, we need to help you. So it's actually evolutionary that when we do that, it actually is a way that we get help. So when I see that downward frown, he'll pull their mouth into a downward frown. I know that something is going on for them.

And I'm careful with this at work especially. It's empathy, compassion, or space. Like if someone's going through something at work, you don't always want to be like, well, tell me about your divorce. Go ahead and tell me about that. No, you might want to be like, look, if this is not a good time for a meeting,

we can reschedule. We don't have to do this right now. So I think that space is sometimes the best thing, or can I help? But it's hard to tell the difference. It's hard to tell, so you just got to ask. Yeah. And I think that's the mistake that people make when coding emotions is they think that they have to rely completely on their own reading.

No. If you see an expression you don't know what it means, be like, hey, all good. Are you good? You want to tell me anything? Asking for clarity, no matter what the emotion is, whether it's good or bad, is always good. A little trick I also use, if you want to calm someone down and you're not sure what's bothering them, name an emotion you think it is and have them correct you. So I will often use the word upset because people will almost always correct you.

So I'll say, are you upset? No, I'm not upset. I'm angry. Oh, good. Now we're at least on the same page. I know that you're angry. Interesting. And that really works well. Sometimes that winds people up a little bit. Yeah,'re at least on the same page. I know that you're angry. Interesting. And that really works well.

Sometimes that winds people up a little bit. Yeah, but at least you get the truth. True, it does start the conversation. Yes, and it gets you to the truth of like, what are they actually feeling? Okay, we did those ones. Contempt. Contempt and surprise, I believe, are last.

So we'll do contempt last. Surprise is a very easy one. It's actually the longest of the micro expressions because we want to see it from far away. So, right, we just like go as wide as possible. Surprise is not positive or negative. The most important thing about surprise is the difference between surprise and fear.

Here's why. If I say to you, did you know about that email that was going to be sent out on Monday to the whole team? Surprise, I had no idea. Versus fear, I didn't know. So surprise versus fear is very important when you're trying to gauge, does someone know something or not know something?

It works really well with kids and teenagers too. Because they're bad at hiding it. They're really bad at hiding it. So like if you're like, did you take my phone? Probably not or probably did. Right, like you know, I think, did I tell you my hero one with kids

is also nodding. Nodding cues work really one with kids? It's also nodding. Nodding cues work really well with kids and partners. You didn't hear it from me. Where if we nod yes in this culture, it means yes. When you nod no, it means no. Horizontally, with a kid you can often be like, do you want to go to the playground or do you want to stay here? Oftentimes they will pick the one that you associated with positive cues because they are reading your cues

to figure out what the better choice is. So oftentimes when they kids will be like, do you want to wear this shirt or do you want to wear that shirt? And I'll show disgust and they're like, well, this one, obviously. So you can also associate cues if you want to encourage someone to make a choice,

if you know that both choices are the same. Kids it works really well. Okay, the last one is contempt. You've heard someone to make a choice. If you know that both choices are the same. Right? For kids it works really well. Okay, the last one is contempt. Contempt is scorn, disdain, pessimism. It's a mark of superiority and that's why it's so dangerous. When someone feels contemptuous, they're often feeling better than you, or they know better than you, or they think better than you.

In marriages, it's particularly damaging. Dr. John Gottman found that when he observes silent videos of a couple, he can predict with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years, if one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other. That basically, if you're in a relationship and someone is contemptuous of the other person, they show a one-sided mouth raise,

contempt is a one-sided mouth raise or a smirk. Yeah, hm. If they show that, it means they feel better than that person. And if that is not addressed, it festers, and it grows into disrespect and hatred. So Gottman looks for contempt because he knows if someone in the couple

feels contemptuous of the other person, they feel better than that person. And that is not an equal marriage. Is that the only way that it comes out? The smirk is the most reliable way that contempt can come out. Okay. Measurably. What about the eye roll? You know, an eye roll can be sort of silly. But like, I could, like, contempt, no matter the context, is not good.

Right? Like if someone is like, I don't think so. You know, they feel better then. That's never a good thing. And I really could be like, oh, you're being so silly. Right? So like contempt is the one expression where, one, you don't want to accidentally show it

in your profile picture. So never show an asymmetrical smile. And two, if someone is showing you contempt, you have some rapport building to work on. Now, you don't know what that contempt is. It could be about you, could be about relationship. It even could be about self-contempt, right? But you want to immediately be like, what is going on? What are you feeling?

What's going through your mind? What questions do you have for me to make sure you're addressing whatever the reason for that contempt is so it doesn't fester. It builds though, doesn't it, with relationships? It builds. Do you think there's any turning back? Because people will think about the people they know in their lives, and there'll be some relationships where they've kind of built up contempt over time.

So the minute you see this person again, you're already kind of on edge. You're probably already smirking, eye rolling, whatever. The only way, the only way is shared experience. Talking more usually doesn't get it. Like you can talk more, but if you have shared experiences where you're building oxytocin or you're building adrenaline, you're doing something new together that scares you both a little bit, it creates all kinds of chemical connections and bonds. And that's why sometimes when people go on like a couple's retreat

or a big couple's trip, it resets them. Yeah. It really resets them chemically. If you are showing contempt, you might disrespect that person. You have to go into shared activities where you can build respect back. Can we change? Can we, I guess this is a question that a lot of people, well, it's quite foundational to learning from you and listening to you is this deep belief that we can change who we are. Because so many of us think that we're kind of stuck in our personalities.

And that they are rigid and that they come from our trauma, our childhood, our genetics. But as it relates to my personality, I guess, what is a personality? And can I change my personality? Should I change my personality? You can kind of change your personality. That's probably not the answer that you want. But they've actually researched this. And when you look at personality, it's composed of five main traits, known as ocean.

Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Every person on the planet Earth has these five traits, and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium, or low. These traits are somewhat heritable, somewhat genetic. So there is a portion of our genetics we cannot change. For example, personality traits are somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable, meaning some of it is just literally our genes expressing themselves. But that still gives us quite a bit of wiggle room.

What I like to focus on is, if you are low on the spectrum in, let's say, neuroticism, which is how you worry, you cannot become, well, low, you cannot become highly neurotic. It's too big of a swing. But you could probably dial up to medium if you wanted to, or if you were high, you could probably dial down to medium. So you have, let's say, 30 to 40% potential for change. So if you want to change your mindset, your goals, your personality, you have about 30 to 40%, I think, freedom to grow or change in a way that you want to, if you're purposeful.

Can you give me the definition of those five? Yes. Okay, so openness. Openness is how curious you are, how open to new experiences you are, how creative you are. Highly open people, and actually I have your personality traits. Uh-oh. Are you ready to look at them? I am. Okay. So you are highly open, the highest open you can be.

What does that mean? Highly open means you love new things. You love trying new things, experimenting with new things. I think it's why you're willing to have new people in this setting, is you like having new things. You love trying new things, experimenting with new things. I think it's why you're willing to have new people in this setting. Is you like having new questions. Highly open people are extremely curious. Okay. The opposite is low open.

Low open folks love habit, tradition, routine. Jack just said I was a control freak though. Yeah, control is not about openness. Okay. Right? Like you're willing to move around the world, you're willing to meet a lot of new people. Jack just said I was a control freak though. Control is not about openness. You're willing to move around the world, you're willing to meet a lot of new people. Low open people want everything to be the same. They don't want to travel, they don't want to experience new things. And the reason for this is actually they found that highly open people have a certain form

of gene called DRD4, which means that when they experience something new, they get an extra load of dopamine. That is why extremely high-open people are adrenaline junkies. They seek really new experiences all the time because they want that dopamine hit. They actually get more dopamine when they try new things. Low-open people have less dopamine for new experiences.

So they're like, why would I go travel when I have my perfect setup right here? They are, I think what's really important about personality is there is no bad. There's no wrong. We want diversity of personality because our high opens, they explore. They're the ones trying all the new things. Our low opens honor our traditions and our rituals. So in terms of finding a partner.

Very important. If I were dating right now, I would probably make the dater take a personality test so we could see if we're matched. I would literally, I put up this test for free. So I have a personality test. It is up for free. I think every single person should take it, know your own personality, and also know your best friend's personality, your partner's personality. What would you be looking for? Okay, so I know what matches really well together. A high open and a low open are going to have trouble.

Okay, so someone who is spontaneous wants to try new things, new experiences, versus someone who just wants to sit at home and do the same old things, go to the same restaurant. Yes, so let's talk about this very practically. I know very quickly. So yes, you can have, hopefully, have people take the test and then look at the results. Like you can actually screenshot it and look. If you're not sure, ask someone,

what do you usually do for lunch? A high open will be like, oh, I love trying new places. The new thing, they always order the special every time. A low open person wants to go to the same restaurant with the same waiter or to the same meal, and they would never try the special, why risk it? Very different approach to the same thing. So in a relationship, every single meal they're going to have a problem.

Like it's really easy if you have the same level of approach to new experiences. Entrepreneurs as a leader, leaders, very good leaders are typically higher in openness. So it tracks for you that you're high and open because you're willing to try new things, you're willing to risk it for the biscuit. You're willing to say, okay, I'm going to risk this new idea to see if it's going to work. I love risking it for the biscuit.

I know, and that's because you're driven towards more high dopamine. However, high open entrepreneurs have shiny object syndrome where they are constantly chasing new ideas. No. And it doesn't always work. No, not me. Okay. I'm joking, of course.

You do it, right? It's like the definition of it. Yes, exactly. And that can be very distracting. So if you are working with a high open leader, you are probably extremely frustrated they keep wanting to try new projects. Do you think if I'm building a company, I should look for people that are equal in openness to me or should I look for counterbalances?

That's it. Okay, are they going to frustrate me? They are going to frustrate you, but they're going to keep you in check? True. Right, like you should never have your CFO as a high open person. Terrifying. That's so interesting. Right? So like the best people, like diversity of hiring is so important in personality.

The mistake I see in corporate, because I do personality trainings for corporate, is managers hire their same personality. And they're all having the same problems. They can never have follow through. And that brings me to conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is where I think opposites attract. This is where I think that works. Conscientiousness is your approach to detail. So it's high conscientious people love, like I'm high contentious. I love alphabetizing.

I love color coding. Office supplies make me so happy. I love Post-it notes and files. I like purses with 15 different compartments. Am I losing you? Yeah, you've lost me. Okay, I've lost you. Because you're medium open. I mean, sorry, you're medium contentious. I mean, all the things you just described, I'm absolutely none of those things. Right, because've lost me. Okay, I've lost you. Yeah. Because you're medium open. Yeah. I mean, sorry, you're medium conscientious. I mean, all the things you just described, I'm absolutely none of those things. Right, because you're medium. But I like detail in work. Mm-hmm.

Like I like work to be great and like us to care about details, but I'm not like organized in the way that you described. Right, and also you're not doing all the details. No. Right, you have a team doing the really difficult details of the research or the editing because you can do it, but you're not super, super conscientious. I'm super, super high conscientious, so I love the details. I have a color-coded calendar for my family, for example.

I'm the only one who looks at it. I wish I was more like that. So highly successful people typically are more conscientious. And this is what we have to remember is they've studied this. Two low conscientious people in a marriage have more financial problems. Yes. So unfortunately, this is one where high conscientiousness can help you a lot in marriage, with finances, in business.

But medium is OK. So if you're low, you can work on dialing up your conscientiousness with tools, with training, with habits books. That's why habits books are always on the bestseller list. It's because all the low-conscious, the meeting-conscious people of the world know, oof, if I want to be successful,

I just have to get more habits. By the way, on the first date with Ashley and Kendrick, Ashley said that she had a spreadsheet for how she spends her days. And he was like, whoa, a spreadsheet. And she showed in that answer that she was super high-conscious. That is really good to know in a new relationship

is someone's high or low conscientious. A high conscientious person, they will never be late, but they get very mad if you're late. So it's really good to know the conscientiousness of your team and of your partner so you can better predict their behavior. Is there an element of neurodivergence here as well? Because I'm thinking if someone has ADHD or-

Yes, I think that they're actively studying this now. I think neurodivergence, neurodiversity, there is personality trends with that. I don't know exactly what they are yet, but I know that they're looking at, how does the neurodivergent community deal with conscientiousness or openness? I know that also, for example, neurodivergent folks

have a different chemical response to even eye contact. So like I talk about eye contact a lot, but I have to be very aware for my neurodivergent community, eye contact is harder for them. And that is because when they're connecting, they wanna be processing and thinking. So it's much harder, more distracting for them if they're making eye contact.

So there's a lot of ways in which they are having a different response to an interaction or a connection. Okay, extraversion. So this is the one that, this is the cool kid, I call it the cool kid of personality, is that everyone talks about extroverts and introverts. But actually ambiverts are much more interesting to me, and most people are ambiverts. They fall somewhere in between extrovert and introvert.

Introverts get energy from being alone. Extroverts get energy from being with others. Ambiverts can dial up into extrovert energy, but they need a lot of recharge time. Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview. Ambiverts can dial up into extroverted energy, but they need a lot of recharge time. Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview. Right? Like I knew that it was going to be a lot of intense like interaction time. So I want like a lot of flat laying in bed time.

Because I'm ambivert leaning towards introvert. I get energy from the right people, but I can't do a lot of socializing. Are you like this off camera? Like if I asked your husband what you're like when... If I said to your husband, do an impression of Vanessa, show me what that impression would look like. Vanessa at home. It would be this but weirder.

Like I'm like a weird person at home. It would be totally like this. But bigger, because at home I'm really comfortable. Like I'm a silly mom. Like with my girls, I'm dressing like a dinosaur. I'm doing dance routines. Like I'm very silly at home. He would probably say bigger if you were to ask him.

Bigger? Yeah, like more animated than I am. You're more animated. Oh my gosh. Do you think I'm that animated? I thought you were pretty animated. Oh my gosh. I'm even more animated probably at home.

Really? Yeah, because I'm even more comfortable. Okay. I'm putting on plays with my girls. Like, I'll do the whole Frozen soundtrack. I wouldn't do that for you here, but at home I would. How many episodes we gotta do before you do the Frozen soundtrack?

A billion. No one will be with us if we do a billion episodes. Okay, so extroversion is important. Now this happened on the date as well, is he said, I'm a super extrovert. And she said, oh, I don't go out that much. This can also be an issue in a relationship. If someone is super extroverted,

they need lots of people time versus someone who is very introverted, they don't want the people time. That is constant tension in a relationship. You also have roles in a company where I'll notice that people will hire for a role where the role requires extroverting. For example, if you're in sales,

you cannot be introverted. It's very hard to be introverted because you're having a cold call, you'll have to schmooze and build rapport. You have to enjoy those networking events. So it's important to factor in what is the ideal personality for this role. So for example, I have roles in my company

where I actually don't want an extrovert. Like I don't want to chit chat, I don't want you socializing. Like I want you to be super high conscientious and really direct. We've had this where I've had a role where I had to let someone go because she wanted to chat too much. And I was like, I can't. I can't chat.

I don't have capacity to chat. I just, like, let's work right side by side, but don't talk to me. Kind of not really, do you know what I mean? Where like, I knew that our team wasn't extroverted enough for her. And so you want to really be careful about hiring a role for your personality.

So extroverts. Okay. Oh, by the way, the best leaders are high extroverts. They found this. High extroverts. Yeah. What am I? You're middle.

Two stars out of three. Yeah, middle. Middle. Makes sense. Like I think that if you were out schmoozing more, it might help your business, but might not, might be distracting to you. But that's what the research says.

I think if I was more extroverted, I would be a better leader. I think my business would be more successful. Cause I think you'd find it easier to form new relationships. And we could dial that up for you, but you couldn't completely change. We could dial up your extroversion, but it would take a lot of energy. That's the thing is we can change anything we want, but you probably can only change it 30 to 40%.

It's going to take a lot of energy. The question is, do you want to do that? Okay, agreeableness. Agreeableness is the hardest one to get. The agreeableness is your approach to teamwork. Highly agreeable people want everyone to like them and typically say yes to everything. They're agreeable. So the problem with agreeable people on a team is you ask them for something and they're like, oh, sure.

Yes. Yeah. I know there's people. But they shouldn't say yes. Yeah. And that is because they so want to be liked and they so struggle with people pleasing and boundaries. They don't have enough value in their own boundaries.

If they say yes to anything, then they can't really do it. You have to be careful with a highly agreeable person because they often overcommit. Yeah. I tend to find someone that's very agreeable. They, especially in the context of business, when you're trying to figure out what the correct answer is, so you have a problem and you're trying to pass out what the correct answer is, you never end up going to them because they will say either what they think you want to hear or they'll just take whatever your idea was. You never get good feedback from an agreeable person.

Exactly. You never get honesty. Yes, because they can't. I have trouble with highly agreeable people as friends. And that's because they'll often all be like, hey, do you want to go to this concert in two weeks? Oh yeah, and they can't tell me last minute. Always.

Because in their minds, like maybe, but probably not, but they're afraid to tell me. You don't want your CFO to be agreeable. No. Now, let's talk about low agreeableness. Low agreeableness, those folks default to no. They are highly skeptical. They don't usually want,

they will not do something for getting along. And because they default to no, they typically can be dream killers. So if you're in a pitch or a presentation, they're like, nah, that'll never work. Nah, that'll never work. Or you know you're with a highly, a low agreeable person if they Google fact check everything you say.

Now, you have to know when to leverage them. Or like, I know when to leverage my low agreeable people. I know when I want to go to them. Like my husband can be very low agreeable. In fact, leaders are often low agreeable because they can't say yes to everything. They have to be willing to say no. They have to willing to have people be angry at them.

So I know when I go to my husband for an idea, I have to be ready, ready for the dream killing because because he's going to be hard on me. And that's good. The last one, my favorite, neuroticism. Neuroticism is how you approach worry. So you're medium. A high neurotic is a worrier. This is me. High neurotics believe that worrying is an investment in failure prevention. Yeah. We worry to protect ourselves, and here's what's really important to know. Low neurotics are very emotionally stable. They usually don't worry.

They say things like, don't worry about it, or it'll all work out. They do that because they actually have a different chemical response to negative events. What they found is that high neurotics, like me, we carry the short form of the serotonin transporter gene. Serotonin makes us feel calm. It makes us feel like everything's going to be okay. High neurotics, we produce less serotonin more slowly. So if something bad happens to me, let's say I get a bad email.

My adrenaline shoots up, my cortisol shoots up, I begin to worry. My body is slow to respond with the serotonin that will say, it's okay, it'll be okay. So I literally have a negative response for longer. That is why we worry. High neurotics chemically feel things worse than low neurotics. So in a relationship, low neurotics are like,

why are you worrying about this? You can't do anything about it anyway. And the high neurotic is like, because if it happens, it will feel very bad. And my serotonin hasn't kicked in yet. So my husband is low neurotic, I'm high neurotic. This is a great match. Is there a gender stereotype here? Yes.

So women are typically higher in neuroticism and higher in agreeableness. So they've actually studied the difference between genders. Women are higher in neuroticism and higher in agreeableness. So they've actually studied the difference between genders. Women are higher in eroticism and agreeableness than men. Men are also typically higher in extroversion. So women are typically higher in worrying. Yes, and yes people. And people pleasing.

Yes. And men are typically lower in worrying and less likely to care about people pleasing. And more extroverted by nature, typically. We take our time when it comes to hiring at Flight Story because I fundamentally believe the success of a business is directly linked to how good you are at hiring. And better hiring starts with smarter insights. LinkedIn, who's a sponsor of this podcast,

has some of the strongest hiring data available to help you identify the best candidates for your business. Their platform will even pair you with those who match what you're looking for, which might lie outside of the job description and more in their unique skills and interests. Because these days, hiring isn't just about finding the most qualified person, but also finding the one whose experience, abilities and interests align with your company's mission. And it goes beyond candidates who are applying for jobs too. In any given week, 171 million members

who aren't actively seeking jobs are open to new opportunities. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn and start today by posting your job for free just by visiting linkedin.com slash D-O-A-C. So if I'm sat listening to this conversation right now and I'm sat next to somebody and I'm like, I think they might be a narcissist. Oh no.

And I'll turn to them now. So if you're sat next to somebody who thinks they're a narcissist, just turn to them and say, hey, we should do this personality test on Vanessa's website. What score on the personality test would I be looking for to spot a narcissist? Oh goodness. Okay. So narcissists tend to be higher in extroversion. They typically love to be around people because it feeds their narcissism. Again, that does not mean that all extroverts are narcissists. I don't know about conscientiousness.

I don't know if that correlates. Typically narcissists are lower in agreeableness because they believe in themselves so much that they're like, I don't need people to agree with me. I'm totally great by myself. Typically they're lower in neuroticism because they don't worry. They're like, everyone likes't need people to agree with me. I'm totally great by myself. Typically, they're lower in neuroticism because they don't worry. They're like, everyone likes me.

I'm so great. Why should I be worried? And I don't know about openness. So luckily, whatever their answer is, you don't have to be too worried, but you do want to have a conversation that goes like this. I see that you're really low in neuroticism, which means you don't worry about things.

When has that served you and when has that not served you? The most important thing about personality is first, analyzing yourself, knowing where you fall. Second is analyzing someone else. How do they fit with you? And the last step is do you optimize or compromise? A narcissist will not compromise with you. So you'll find out if they're a narcissist.

If as you talk about the compromises, they won't. When they talk about how they're neurotic, they never had a problem with it. Oh, their agreeableness, it's always been great. Oh, their extraversion, they're perfect. Their contentiousness, they do everything right. They've never made a mistake. Their openness, their way is the better way.

A narcissist typically believes their personality traits are perfect. Typically. So it's actually not their score, it's how they relate to the score that should be a red flag. And you said at the start of the conversation, certain personality traits correlate with longevity. Yes, they've studied this. So you want to guess which personality traits last the longest? Well, I'd say if you're high-conscientious, then you're gonna live pretty long. Number one.

Because you're not gonna take many risks, you're not gonna fuck up. But there's a close second. Health. So high-conscientious people are very good at habits, exercising, brushing teeth, taking their medication, and there's one more that correlates to longevity. I'm gonna say high extroverts.

There's, yes. Because you make more friends. That's it. You have a partner. That's it. So if you are a high extrovert, you have a support system, you invest in your support system, and you're getting a constant dose of oxytocin and serotonin, which makes you feel so good, which makes you feel belonging,

which means you seek out people when needed help. So who live? Extroverts live longer. Yeah. Extroverts and high conscious people live longer. You want to know who lives the shortest? Can you guess? You tell me. The people who live the shortest, who have the lowest lifespan, are high neurotics. We worry ourselves to death.

We have more chronic stress, more anxiety, and more depression. So, neurotics have an issue, and this is me. We have a problem with our serotonin, right? Serotonin is very complicated. There's doing a lot of research on this. If I don't produce as much serotonin and I produce it more slowly, I'm having far more negative experiences

than the same person in the room. Like if I'm in a car and we almost get in a car accident and I'm the high neurotic, that affects me all day long. I'm like jittery and jumpy all day. And people are like, what are you talking about? We didn't even get an accident. It's because their serotonin kicked in right away, began producing, they're like, oh, we're good. Whereas mine is like a slow faltering car. It's like, I know people like that. I feel sorry for them. Exactly. And they don't live

as long. So I am working very, very hard in my life to one, dial up my extraversion to have a really strong support system because I know that supports me both mentally and longevity wise. But I'm also working on how to curb my neuroticism, to dial down my worry, to know that it's not an investment in worry prevention. Worrying more does not prevent bad things from happening, but having resilience does. What about optimism and pessimism? You know, optimism is not a part of the personality spectrum. However, high neurotics tend to be more pessimistic.

Okay, so they're not. So the more you worry, the more you think bad things will happen. Did you hear about that study, a study in 2015, where they looked at the blood test results of extroverts, found that they had stronger immune responses than introverts? It doesn't make that, doesn't that make so much sense? So extroverts, there's a lot of things happening for extroverts found that they had stronger immune responses than introverts. Mm-hmm. Doesn't that make so much sense? So extroverts, there's a lot of things happening for extroverts. One is they're exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems, so they're getting more antibodies by exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems. But two,

when they're with people, they're happier. If you're an introvert and you're with someone and you're unhappy and stressed, your cortisol is up, your adrenaline is up, you're not having as good of a time. Whereas an extrovert is getting all this energy, getting all this dopamine, which is fueling them, which is making them feel better, which makes them stronger. I was reading about something a couple of years ago as well that showed that if you have stronger social connections, it's like an insulator of stress. So then if you're lonely and you experience stress, you physiologically feel it worse. It's stress insurance.

Yeah. Like investing in your friendships, the reason why I talk about it so much, it is stress insurance. And by the way, lifelong singles, they can predict lifelong singles. So lifelong singles, typically low in openness. Which means? They don't want to try new things, they don't want to go to new places, they don't want to go to new restaurants, they won't go out and meet new people because they're low in openness, which means they don't want to try new things, they don't want to go to new places, they don't want to go to new restaurants, they won't go out and meet new people because they are low in openness,

low in extroversion, so they don't get energy from being around people, and they're low in contentiousness. They can't even plan it. That is the trifecta of you're going to have a hard time meeting your friends, meeting your people, because you don't get energy from people, you're not open to meeting new people, and you cannot have follow through with trying to get the habit to get those new people.

This episode is really important for those people because it means, A, you're not alone. There's other people who have this. Two, it could be your genetics at work. I think that sometimes people get down on themselves for it. I'm like, look, it could be how you're wired. You're not set up right to be getting energy from people. Okay, we have to work on that.

That means we have to find the right people in the right situation. So if I have that person, I have a lot of lifelong singles who are my students, I say, okay, we can do this. We can do this. Okay, you don't get energy from people. You're a low extrovert. Where do you get energy?

Knitting, okay. Books, great. Hiking, great. Hiking, great. Extreme sports, great. That's where I want you to hang out. I want you to get energy from the activity, not the people. So that way you're getting all this good stuff

from the activity. Meeting people becomes a side effect, and it's easier to be extroverted, to fight with that extroversion, because you're like, oh, they're doing the same activity. And you don't even have to be high open. Because if you love that extreme sport,

go to the same place every week at the same time, but do it all over the city. That way, the first time is going to be hard, but it's a ritual, it's a habit. And then whoever is coming in new, that's your app. That's your Ernie and People. So there's ways to do this. You just have to invest a little bit in it.

I truly believe that lifelong singles can find their person. They just have to be looking in the right ways. Is it important for me to know someone else's personality type when I meet them? When you first meet them, you don't have to know their personality right away. However, they've found that you can tell many of the personality traits from a handshake. From a handshake. So like if we handshake... I'm like overthinking it now. He didn't shake my hand.

I was like overthinking it because I was going to do... What are you going to do? Don't do anything crazy. Okay. Like pretend that we just met. Yeah. Just pretend. Pretend. Yeah. Oh, it's so good to meet you.

Okay. So extroverts shake firmer. I usually do this as well. So sometimes I do this. Very good. And that's typically a mark of extroversion, so that speaks to a little bit higher on the scale. We tell off from a handshake of the firmness, of the length, of the amount of pumps that happen.

All of those things are informing that sort of like, our brain's like, figuring out someone's personality. So you can actually pay attention to what your instinct is, it's probably right. They've even found the weirdest, this is like the weirdest. They did a study where they observed people shaking hands and they filmed them and found that in that minute after shaking hands,

almost everyone touched their nose or their face. And they found that their nasal dilation increased, meaning when we shake someone's hand, we're kind of smelling their hand. Like I smell you, It's so weird. It's so weird, but that's what we're doing. It's because we're sussing out something about their personality.

So there's a lot, I think, under the surface that we don't even realize is happening. Like, I swear that when I shake a nervous person's hand and I smell my hand, I get a little bit nervous. Really? Yes, I don't like to be around nervous people because they like trigger my own nervousness. Weirdest thing ever, but I think it's true. That's a really interesting thing. nervous people because they like trigger my own nervousness. Yeah. Weirdest

thing ever. That's a really interesting thing. Like you get a vibe of people when you meet them. The vibe is real. Yeah, it's so real, isn't it? That's that first impression. That vibe is so real. Yes. That's why I encourage people to not go to places where they're uncomfortable, because people will pick up on that vibe. Like go places where you thrive. Like go to the go to the activities, do the things that you actually like, because that's gonna come across,

it's gonna affect your vibe. This is so true. I did something the other night, actually with the team. Do you remember that thing we did the other night? I probably shouldn't say it. But I went to a place which I'm like really uncomfortable in. Oh, why'd you do that? Because they told me I had to go.

Jack. But you didn't like it. I hated every minute of it. Right, your vibe was for sure off. And I looked at myself in the photos after, I was like, fucking hell, you're having a terrible time. Yeah. You really don't wanna be in. You can minute of it. Right, and your vibe was for sure off. And I looked at myself in the photos after, I was like, fucking hell, you're having a terrible time. Yeah. You really don't want to be like,

You can't hide it. It's like my little thing was like, You're like terrified. You were probably like really afraid. So I think that like energy curation is important here. Yeah, it's so important. You can't fake it very easily, can you, when you keep the vibe as off?

And I don't think we should try to fake it, right? Like I would much rather you set yourself up for success than say no to the things that don't work for you. And there's one way that I kind of understand what I think about a person is my vibe because it's so interesting doing this podcast. I've met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and within the first five seconds I can feel them. Yes. And I don't know how to explain it other than it's almost funny because I sit in my

little room doing my research and then I'll come out, I walk around the corner, and within like three to five seconds, I know whether we're good to go, and we're ready, and we're calm, or if there's something off. Yes, that is real. There's something off. That is real.

So when you feel that, anywhere, on a date with someone you're hiring on a team, you should trust that feeling because it is something that we cannot, we have not explained with science yet. It's pheromones, it's the shape of your face, it's the feeling of your hand in mine, it's there is something happening chemically, physically, and you should trust it.

Like have you ever been led astray from that? Hmm. We have a closing tradition, as you know, on this podcast, where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. Like, have you ever been led astray from that? We have a closing tradition, as you know, on this podcast, where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is, what are you doing on a daily basis to improve the life of someone else?

And how can you serve others better? This is weird. Of course. Of course it is. I knew I wanted to write books. I actually think of myself as a writer. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer.

When I started to be a writer in 2007, social media did not exist. Your job as a writer back then was to write books and maybe if you were lucky, you had a three month book tour. To be totally honest with you, I did not know I was signing up for this. I did not, if you had told me that being a writer would mean sharing videos of my home and my personal life every day,

I probably wouldn't have done it. I don't love that part of my job, to be honest with you. And so I know though that I have to share on video, every day, every day, right? To be able to get people to read my books. Which part of it don't you like? All of it. I mean, all of it. Which part do you hate the most? Trying to synthesize something very complicated into 60 seconds.

I don't like it. I think communication is very complex, but I know it's essential to boil down a tip into a hook and then a framework. And I don't love that. And so when my career started to change, like I was writing books and then it framework. And I don't love that. And so when my career started to change, like I was writing books and then it was like, oh, it's 20% of your job is marketing. Now 30% of your job is marketing.

Now 50% of your job is marketing. Now writing books is six months of writing and the rest of your life is marketing. I did not sign up for that. So I get up every day and I post videos on my stories and on my social media and I do that to serve. I did not do that because I like it and if I could skip it I would but I can't and it's how I'm able to write books and so that is how I serve.

Vanessa, you are an extremely rare force in this art form. Thank you. You really are. It's so funny on the podcast when I love having the conversation I have with somebody and I walk away with it feeling like I need to watch it back again and take notes because there's so many new concepts that feel so valuable to me. But then to see the way that the world reacted to you. Oh my gosh. It was incredible. It was unbelievable. It was insane.

I feel like I met like eight million new best friends. That's kind of what it felt like. I mean, as of now, I think the video's like eight million. I don't even, that doesn't even count audio. It's the most downloaded audio episode we've ever had of all time. So it means that's probably another six or six or seven million people or something.

And it really did feel like I found my people. Like, I felt like literally it was like finding eight million new friends, where I met eight million recovering awkward, trying to connect, trying to figure it out, people who are like learners. And we were just flooded with love. And it re-energized everything that I do because I was like, I have got to help everyone. Like I have got to be more helpful.

And so like, it was such a gift. Like thank you for giving me the space and asking the questions because I just have met the most amazing people. You deserve it. It's a special gift. It's blown my mind how desperate and hungry people are for this information.

Vanessa, thank you so much for being here again. I really appreciate you. And thank you for the, you had a profound impact on our show. You brought millions of new people to our show that had never listened before. So we owe you tremendously and thank you for what you're doing. You're a very unique person. You have all the right balance of like wisdom, articulation.

You're challenging, but in the best possible way. So, and you're weird and you know you are, and you own it, which makes it admirable, endearing, and a force for change. Because so many other people out there are struggling to step into their own sort of weird, authentic selves. Vanessa, thank you so much for being so generous

with your time, it's wonderful to see you again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the, from the gazillions of people that stopped me in the streets and in the gyms and everywhere I went and sent me messages and just like overwhelmed me with this like wave of appreciation because of that episode and shared it with their friends like crazy. Thank you on behalf of all of them too. Please keep doing what you're doing, okay? Yeah, I will.

Thank you. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with. Every single guest on the Diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary. And it's a question designed to challenge, to connect and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand. On one side, you've got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it. And on the other side, if you scan that,

you can watch the person who came after who answered it. 51 questions split across three different levels the warm-up level the open-up level and the deep level so you decide how deep the conversation goes and people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work in bedrooms alone at night and on first dates and everywhere in between. I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at thediary.com.