The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Brian Keating: I’m Spending $200 Million To Explore Why We Exist! How God Fits Into Science Finally Explained, Is God Real?

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

Could understanding the mystery of the Big Bang and how the Universe came into creation mean that we can finally know for sure if there is a creator? Professor Brian Keating is a cosmologist and experimental physicist at the University of California San Diego. He is the host of the ‘Into The Impossible’ podcast and author of the books, ‘Losing The Nobel Prize’ and ‘Into The Impossible: Think Like A Nobel Prize Winner’.  In this conversation, Brian and Steven discuss topics such as, how the discovery of the telescope changed the world, the link between our blood and the stars, the origins of the universe, and the scientific debate on God’s existence.  Follow Brian:  Instagram - https://bit.ly/4157xnt  Twitter - https://bit.ly/4eSKmjv  YouTube - https://bit.ly/4fQ9k4d  Podcast - https://bit.ly/3ZqRD5s  YouTube: You can purchase Brian’s book, ‘Losing The Nobel Prize’, here: https://amzn.to/4fOPR3M  Spotify: You can purchase Brian’s book, ‘Losing The Nobel Prize’, here: https://amzn.to/4fOPR3M  Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes  My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook  You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb  Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the shrapnel of an exploded star. And this is a meteorite scheme from over four billion years ago. And this is what Elon will kill for. Wow. And all of this is to understand that fundamental question people want to know. How did we get here? And how does the question of God tie into all of this? Well, for the first time in history,

we might be able to answer that question with scientific hard data. Brian Keating is an astrophysicist and professor whose groundbreaking research and digestible explanations uncover everything we want to know about the universe and what lies beyond. We go way back. 400 years ago a genius named Galileo looked through a telescope and he realized that we are not the center of the universe. And now we know the universe is vaster than you or I can comprehend. How big would Earth be on this table?

Small. Not even a grain of sand? Even our galaxy wouldn't be a grain of sand. But we still don't know how the universe began. And so one experiment took me to the South Pole, to the bottom of the planet. And we thought we discovered the creation of time and space itself.

Took me to the brink of a Nobel Prize. We were on the front page of every newspaper. But it turned out we didn't see that at all. What we saw was, and we were crushed. I don't want to get too emotional, but... We had to retract these discoveries, and it was the most crushing experience a scientist can have.

But you cannot stop doing experiments to answer these questions. Now you've launched this $200 million dollar project. Yeah, and the data that this experiment is seeing is expensive because now we know 100% that... Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to

deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you, thank you so much. Back to the episode. Dr. Brian Keating, what is the mission that you're on? I think I'm the luckiest man on earth. I get to get paid, not that much, but I get to get paid to study the questions that I

was most interested in as a 12-year-old pimple-faced kid in upstate New York, which is, how did we get here? And I think it's the question that people just want to know. It's the only question you can't know, right? What happened before you were born? You have to rely on other people's word for it, right? What happened before you were born? You have to rely on other people's word for it, right? You have to ask questions and be curious. And what is the only event that ever happened for which there was nobody around to ask? And that's the origin of our universe. And the universe contains everything. It contains life, minds, consciousness, everything down

to podcasters and daily life. What are some of the most controversial existential questions that you seek to answer with all the research that you do? So you've talked about this before on the show, the question of finite versus infinite games. And what we do in science, science is an infinite game, right? You can't win science. But along the way, there's many, many finite games. In other words, fixed competitions for which there's only one victor, right?

I got offered a professorship at UC San Diego. That means 399 other people didn't get that job. I got tenure. A lot of people don't get tenure. I got this, I got that. And then eventually, I didn't get that job. I got tenure. A lot of people don't get tenure. I got this, I got that. And then eventually I didn't get, you know, spoiler alert, my first book's called Losing the Nobel Prize, but there's only, you know, at most three people that can win a Nobel Prize every year.

In my field, the infinite game is comprised of many, many finite games. And the most important questions that generate the most controversy, the most heat, the most passion have to do with the nature of the origin of our universe. It's actually not a settled science. It's not actually known for a fact whether our universe came once, existed in a certain way eternally, in a way I can describe, went through cycles of creation and destruction, and or it follows sort of a biblical creation narrative. These are all kind of open questions in a certain sense.

And because they're not yet resolved, and because the only way to resolve them is through data, we cannot actually answer these. So the human mind is in a hybrid. It's in a superposition. We kind of have a lot of knowledge, but we have a lot of questions. We have a lot of solutions, but we don't have a lot of answers. We're trying to understand that fundamental question. And I always say, I want to know what happened on the Tuesday before the Big Bang.

Imagine this, a day before which there was no yesterday. You couldn't even speak about it if you were there. Obviously, nobody was there to witness it. But even conceptually speaking, how does time progress if time starts? We think about time, and time is very mercurial. It's very hard to describe, define what time is. Is time what a watch measures? Is time how my hair gets gray over the years? Is time how we perceive it, sitting on a hot stove

versus being with a pretty girlfriend. Are those methods unequal? Are they equally valid? But at its base layer, if the universe began, if it truly had a singular origin, then time came into existence at that moment as well. And how does the question of God tie into all of this? And what are the sort of, I guess the most controversial

question is, is there a God or is there not a God? And then a sub question to that would be, what form does this God take? Are these questions that you seek to answer? Me personally, yes. My colleagues tend to shy away from it. It's considered somewhat anathema or distasteful for a real honest-to-goodness workaday scientist to talk about, to even contemplate the possibility of God.

And for me, I call myself a practicing, very devout agnostic in the sense that I take my Judaism. In my case, I'm a practicing Jew, but the question of what to take on faith, which in Hebrew, by the way, the word amen comes from the Hebrew word amunah, which means faith. It means to believe in something. I would say I don't believe in gravity. If I take this rock and I draw it, I don't have to believe in it.

I have evidence for it. Science, the word science means knowledge. It doesn't mean faith. It doesn't mean religion or theology. But for me, thinking about God provides a certain, the most luxurious or the most delightful sort of spice to the research, to the hard work that I'm doing, knowing that the team and I that are trying to answer these questions, we can possibly resolve the question of whether or not the universe began as, for example, it begins in the Torah, the Old Testament, the biblical narrative that underpins the Judaism and Christianity and Islam as well of, you, of half the world's population.

What if we could substantiate that narrative? What if we could refute it? A good scientist has to be open to both. So for me personally, I've always been interested in those existential questions. I don't put myself out there as a rabbi or some exemplar of perfection as religion, but I'm trying. I'm trying to improve. I'm trying to dedicate my life to answering questions that others have posed and stand on their shoulders to hopefully get a closer glimpse of truth.

But it's absolutely, 100% in my mind, inexorably linked. The question of a creator and the question of its creation or his creation, if you will. But as I say, for the first time in history, myself, my colleagues and I, we might be able to start to answer that question with scientific hard data. The question of whether there's a God or not and which God is most accurately represented by the science. Yeah, and the creation stories that those religions tell themselves or tell the world.

You've raised the $200 million project. What does that mean? And what is the question you're seeking to fundamentally answer with that $200 million project? Yeah, let me take a step back. So for 2,000 years, most scientists, people who believe the universe was eternal, had been around forever. And then, not far from here, north of Hollywood, is a telescope, a 100-inch diameter telescope,

five meters across. And that telescope was used by Edwin Hubble. Hubble observed that every single galaxy that he could see is moving away from the Milky Way galaxy. So every galaxy, which are collections of 100 billion suns, just like our sun, is expanding away from us. How could he see that through a telescope? So he used what's called the redshift.

So the redshift is an effect that is related to a Christian Doppler discovery called the Doppler shift. You ever heard an ambulance and it's coming towards you and it goes, weh, weh, weh, weh, weh, and it gets higher in frequency? And it goes, weh, weh, weh, weh, weh. That's the Doppler shift. The waves of sound are piling up,

their frequency is getting higher and higher, the wavelength is getting piled up in the direction it's going, the source, and it's getting lower in the opposite direction. The same exact thing happens with light. Instead of getting higher pitch and lower pitch, lower frequency means redder colors. So red is a longer wavelength of light than is blue light. He saw everything is moving away from it, us in the Milky Way.

It was a very puzzling discovery. It went against 2,500 years of received wisdom. He observed it with data. It was incontrovertible. Every single galaxy is moving away from the Milky Way galaxy, our galaxy. He said either we didn't put on our cosmic deodorant and no one wants to be around us, or the universe is getting bigger. Tomorrow it will be bigger than it was today.

The separation between galaxies will be larger than it was today. The separation between galaxies will be larger than it is today. The implication, Stephen, if you go back another day before today, yesterday, things were closer. Keep playing that movie backwards, you come to a point, perhaps a singularity, where all the matter, all the energy, everything that is, was, or ever will be was concentrated effectively at a single point. That's the Big Bang. And so in the Big Bang cosmology, the universe starts at a particular moment. Time comes into existence.

The elements come into existence. All the elements in water, instead of hydrogen in water, they all come into existence. And then over billions of years, those elements come together over the force of gravity. They will eventually fuse two hydrogens together to make helium and so forth, and you get the heavier and heavier elements. Eventually those objects called stars, they eventually burn up and blow up in what's called a supernova. And before they blow up, they create all sorts of other matter that we're made of, calcium,

oxygen, nitrogen, iron. And in their death throw, in their explosive, fireworks-like ending of their lives, they give life to us. Because they blast out into the cosmos, into the galaxy, the material that we're made of. So literally, as Carl Sagan said, we are star stuff. And I brought some star stuff here today. So these are different byproducts. This is the shrapnel of an exploded star. This is mostly made of iron here. I brought these and I give these away on my website. I made a special website for your listeners, briankeating.com slash diary. This is a meteorite,

Steven. Have you ever seen a meteor in the atmosphere? That's a rock like that, a mineral, coursing through our atmosphere at tens of thousands of miles per hour. How do you know? How do we know? We measure their velocity. We can track them on radar. How do you know that this is a meteorite?

Oh, this has all the characteristics of a meteorite. Its composition, its density, its structure. It has that weird pattern on it. But if you're really curious what we could do... So where does this come from then? This one was found in Argentina, in a place called the Field of the Stars. And this could have come from anywhere in the universe. Exactly. This came from... this is basically a fragment of an asteroid that existed before the Earth, Stephen.

This is a fragment, a fossil relic, of our solar system from over four billion years ago, older than our Earth. Because our Earth formed at its core, our Earth has iron inside of it. It has an iron core, just like that. That's pretty heavy, right? And it also made this here. This, if you give this to your sweetheart,

if you compress this by 100,000 times and give it to your sweetheart, she'll be really happy about that. That's pure carbon. So that'll turn into a diamond. That'll turn into a diamond. I like to say, you know, pressure is what turns dust into diamonds. For anyone that can't see this right now, it looks like a dice. It's almost identical to a black dice.

It's got exactly. Yep. It's very light. Now contrast that to... Here's a piece of rock. This is mostly volcanic rock. I collected that in Antarctica. I've been to Antarctica twice to the South Pole. I collected that specimen there. It has holes in it. See the holes? Those come from bubbling, escaping volcanic gases. So, there's volcanoes down at the South... In Antarctica, not the South Pole. And then here's this one. This is found in Namibia.

So this is a meteorite found in Namibia. Also from the same process that formed our solar system. This was found by the natives that lived there several hundred or maybe even a thousand years ago. This one's particularly nice if you're not watching. It looks like a human foot. And I can't explain how unbelievably heavy that is. Yes.

I don't think I've held something that's this size, but this heavy before. It's extremely dense. It's the dense. So what happens when the star tries to make the iron in that, it takes more energy to make that, fuse that nuclei of iron, than is given off in the fusion process.

So therefore the star can't support its weight. It collapses, it explodes, and rebounds. Now when your listeners or viewers go to my website and if they win one, you'll see how attractive these things are to magnets. It's a very powerful, it's called a rare earth magnet, neodymium magnet. Jesus. And you see. So attach it to the meteorite. It's fine to do that.

You can do that. Wow. That sound. I love that sound. A ping. So this material is highly magnetic. And iron, which is primarily the constitution of this meteorite, has the exact same chemical structure as in your blood there's a molecule called hemoglobin.

It's almost identical to the chlorophyll molecule that plants have, except chlorophyll has a magnesium atom at the center of its chemical matrix. But in hemoglobin that's going through your veins right now is iron. That iron came from that supernova. Eventually your mother, you know, and the food that you eat has some iron in it, and then your body starts to produce blood. And that blood has the same chemical composition as the stars. So this 200 million, what are you doing?

Okay, we're going to get back to the money. Yep, exactly. So what is the fundamental question you're seeking to answer? So let's say you see someone shooting a gun, right? You want to see the, but you see the smoke from the gun, you see the bullet moving at great speed, but you'd like to see who actually shot it. Was it God? Was it Mother Nature?

Was it some quantum fluctuation in the multiverse? And so we're trying to capture that to take a picture of the infant universe, to take the earliest baby picture possible using sensors that are sensitive to microwave light that we cannot see, that's invisible to us. We could capture a pattern which would only be present if the universe had a singularity, if it went through this incredible rupture of space-time called the Big Bang the details of the experiment Were worked out over several years

We realized we had to go down to the South Pole to the bottom of the planet a place that was only reached 112 years ago and the enemy of what I'm trying to detect is water water absorbs microwaves That's how your microwave oven works to heat up coffee. So we took that telescope there, we made an observation, we claim we detected that baby picture, that snapshot, that reverberations of the creation of time and space itself called inflation. We were heralded around the world that this is the greatest discovery of all time in science, literally. There was just one problem. When we made this measurement, we were aware

that we could fool ourselves into seeing what we wanted to see, because we knew how important this discovery would be, but we kind of convinced ourselves that we had seen the true birth pangs of the Big Bang. But it turned out we didn't see that at all. Instead what we saw were trillions and trillions of tons of dust in our galaxy for technical reasons that mimicked the signal of the Big Bang.

And we were crushed. It was literally dust. We saw cosmic dust, the leftover byproducts of exploded stars. I just want to be clear here, so I don't want to move on until I fully understand. So you went down to the South Pole. You looked up expecting to see these waves that show that the universe is expanding. What you actually saw were like lines of dust. Is that a simplified way of saying it?

But you thought you'd seen these microwaves of the universe expanding. Yes, exactly. Simplifying it perfectly. We made this discovery and then immediately, effectively in scientific terms, six months later, this is in early 2015, we basically had to admit we were wrong. And fortunately for me and for the universe as a whole, I was very close with a man named Jim Simons. He was a monumental scientist, mathematician without peer, effectively.

And he said, Brian, I've been thinking about this experiment and I want to have a merger. So he put together this dream team and we're still together to this day. We're building an observatory in Chile, not the South Pole, in Chile to do what BICEP couldn't do. BICEP being the telescope you built in the South Pole? That was, yeah, that lost the Nobel Prize in my first book's language. And we're just now getting data. It got first light a month before Jim Simons passed away. And so we were able to show him the data that this experiment is seeing.

I can't show it to you as confidential as the diary is. You hope nobody's looking, but you don't know if anybody is. I can't show it to you, but the data is exquisite. So what do you suspect is the origin of the universe? Well... Is it God? Is it some kind of strange cosmic reaction that took place for no reason at all?

I know you must have a suspicion. You know, if the universe began with a singular big bang, if it began on a certain day or it didn't, I just want to know the truth. The interpretation of it, that's going to be going on for... I mean, people are battling about, as I said, we thought we detected that signal, right? So we already have a simulation of what will happen when this is discovered for good. Finally, in no dust, right? We know exactly what the media will say. At that time, on one side of the equation were the greatest religious thinkers and theologians of the time saying, this proves the existence of God, that God created the universe in a singular moment.

Let there be light, fiat lux. That's exactly what the Torah, the Old Testament, the Bible says. So they said, it agrees with our hypothesis. On the other side, there were militant atheists, Richard Dawkins, you know. There are people saying, this proves there's no need for a God. The universe came into existence, like you said, meaningless quantum field, the fluctuation out of nothingness. It proves nothing about God. In fact, it invalidated, literally, Stephen, there were people publishing articles in major newspapers everywhere that proves God, proves no God. So it's not like I'm going to think that I have the temerity to say I'm going to be the

final word or we're going to be the final word. I know this is going to resonate and echo through the annals of history, but at the same time, we could also see nothing. And that's the hardest thing, when you see nothing. The human mind doesn't like ambiguity. You know, like you can talk about something very non-controversial. Let's talk about abortion rights. Let's talk about trans rights.

Now, these are incredibly controversial things, right? So what does the human mind do? It selects a side. It says no abortions. Abortion is for everybody. No trans rights. Yes, trans rights. Immigration.

No immigration. Yes, the human mind hates that. And for good reason, there's an old Yiddish expression. He who stands in the middle of the road gets hit by both sides of the traffic. So the human mind cleaves to one side or the other. I don't think, you know, in terms of, you know, religion or whatever, that will be the definitive final word on it. But it's sort of a privilege to play the game. What is the most compelling evidence that you've ever encountered that there might be

a God? Hmm. That's a long question. Well, I hope you'll find it someday too. At least in my religion, in Judaism, God is a creator and he's the organizer. He creates light and darkness. He creates day and night. He creates heaven and earth. He creates beasts and earth and fishes and so forth. And then he creates man.

And we can't really emulate God. Even if you don't believe in God, you can imagine what a God would be like, right? You can conceptualize, imagine, you know, King Charles, you know, times a trillion, whatever, like the all-powerful force. But at the same time, we're told God is a father, our father, who art in heaven, right? And he's a lord, he's like a politician, he's a king,

he's their father in this Judeo-Christian concept. It's hard to kind of reconcile what that means because we don't really have analogies to it. But the one analogy we do get is the one thing that we can create, which is a human. Now, I think for that reason, men and women have a stake in what it means to feel a connection to God. Women much more so. It's almost impossible for a man to comprehend what it's like to have the ability to be a vessel for life's creation.

I think that's part of the evidence for it. I also think that there's some clues, but again, it's not proof. You cannot prove God exists. You cannot prove God doesn't exist. You have to be comfortable with that ambiguity and very few people are. If we came from a single cell organism, as some people say, then giving birth seems to be quite a new concept. Because if you think about some of the evolutionary stories of the single cell organism that then divided and then Darwinism's theory that it was the environment that defined how we give birth and different animals give birth or replicate in different ways. So, to go back far enough, it seems that like giving birth as we know it, which is this

like process where the baby comes out and they cut the cord, is actually quite recent in the history of consciousness, but also just like living organisms. Hmm. Does that make it more or less miraculous? It's so amazing, but it doesn't feel like it gives me... I don't know, there's something in my mind that thinks if a single cell organism, I don't know, a gazillion years ago, split because of some mutation which caused more single cell organisms to split. I mean, I guess it's still creation, isn't it?

And then you could ask the question, what if there was a creator, and this creator not only, you know, created that first cell, but created within that cell the possibility, the propensity, and had the knowledge, you know, we can't comprehend it, but had the knowledge that that will eventually make a person and have consciousness and be able to conceptualize God. Now, I'm not saying that's evidence for it, but just you can see which would be a greater miracle that like God encrypted in the DNA code

that eventually there'll be a Stephen Bartlett or Brian Keating or you know that those are natural processes that are the inevitable conclusion of creation of life and evolution as you say in Darwinian theory for which we have abundant evidence, right? I don't know which is more miraculous and that's why miracles- Humans are pretty new, aren't they? Oh, yeah. Mammals, mammals. How old is the conscious human?

The conscious, I mean, the first, like, homo sapiens that are of our species, probably 200,000 years old, maybe. So it's only been for 200,000 years that we've even been able to think about the possibility of God, which is almost a weird way. It almost, you could say, God has only existed for 200,000 years. Right. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And in fact, many people, and I like to say this to you, like, what's your favorite day

of the year, like on the calendar? I was going to say my birthday. Okay. I always ask people that. I say, like, what's your favorite day? Usually I'll get Christmas, my anniversary, my birthday, my first kid's birthday, whatever. But those are all origins. We're fascinated by origins because you weren't, like, you origins because you can't witness the whole process of your birth.

You have to rely on your mother and your father, and maybe there's some pictures and a nurse. But now go back to the beginning of the universe. Well, maybe there was only one entity. Maybe it was only God, and why did God make the universe? And then, of course, there's many, many questions. The most kind of astringent or perhaps most challenging question is, why does evil exist? Why would a good God create suffering, childhood leukemia? It doesn't make any sense. So the standard answer for that question is that to not have randomness, to not have chaos, to not have variability in life would

necessitate a predetermined existence. And a lot of people believe that. I've talked to Sam Harris on my podcast. He's been on here. He believes strict determinism. Every single thing, what's happening to us right now, the words that are coming out of my mouth, your ear twitching or whatever it's doing. That's all determined.

There's no control. There's free will is a complete and utter illusion. And because of that, then there doesn't have to be an explanation of why there's leukemia in children or whatever. And yes, that is an unanswered question. And I think, but I don't think it's a sufficient question not to do stuff. People would ask, why does a child get leukemia? But they won't ask, why do humans experience the highest pleasures, the highest sensations,

both physically, viscerally, but also emotionally and spiritually, that we, unique among all the creations on earth, have this ability to appreciate our finite existence, to have love, to have whatever these connections are. That's what makes life living. Now, we can't answer why is that? Like, do we deserve that? So for me, the evil and good and like pleasure and pain make lots of sense from an evolutionary perspective. It makes a lot of sense as to why you would feel this overwhelming sense of like love

and protection when you gave birth, when your son or your daughter arrives in the world, because that feeling is passed down from your ancestors and your ancestors had that feeling so they survived and their offspring survived. And that feeling gets stronger as it's passed down because those that have it are more likely to pass on their DNA. So the DNA of that feeling keeps passing as it's passed down because those that have it are more likely to pass on their DNA. So the DNA, if that feeling keeps passing through the generation. So I get that.

And then with evil, I can also understand that pretty well. Because if we think of evil maybe as a feeling or something that happens or a disease, I can understand that theoretically. Evil is human, it's human related. There's no evil, cancer, cancer's not evil. And even that I can understand because I can understand the theoretically. Evil is human. It's human related. There's no evil in cancer. Cancer is not evil. And even that I can understand because I can understand the brain is so fragile and I can understand all these human instincts and chemicals and jealousy and, you know,

all of the... even love comes with it. But, you know, if a woman dies, it's probably her husband statistically. So, like, I understand, you know, that's evil, isn't it? But it's love as well. So, I understand the complexities of all of that. What I can't understand is what active role God is playing in any of this stuff. And, yeah, I was religious until I was 18, and then I think I fell down a rabbit hole listening to, like, Richard Dawkins and some of the others and Sam Harris.

And it left me in a position where I would probably define myself as being agnostic, but there's still this big question mark which hangs above my life, which is, like, where did human life come from? And is it possible that it just didn't come from anywhere? Is it possible that there was a big bang, you know, at the very start of all of this, it caused lots of reactions. One such reaction was fusing some chemicals,

which fused in the right order over millions and millions of years, and it started to move in a way that like plants can't move. And that then led rise to this sort of evolutionary process. And now here I am. And my brain was just bigger 200,000 years ago than the other monkeys, so now that I've developed this thing called conscious, where I can think about things, and here I am, trying to figure it all out,

now that I have this bigger brain thanks to Darwinian evolution. Is that the game? And when people hear me say that, they probably think, oh, the natural reaction to that is because it threatens your sense of like purpose and belonging and it threatens justice. Your natural reaction to that is, no, I hope it's not. And so let me think of ways that that can't possibly be true. But I'm not tempted by that. I'm tempted by figuring out what's true, irrespective of how warm and fuzzy it is. I'm tempted by figuring out what's true, irrespective of how warm and fuzzy it is. And I still don't know.

But I'm hoping science has some answers for me. Well, yeah, sorry to disappoint right now. The connection, that logical chain that you produced has a lot of so-called missing links. But you said something that's very interesting to me. You said you consider yourself an agnostic. In other words, it sounds to me like you're more, you're doing things that an atheist does, like you're not going to church,

you're not observing mass, or whatever you would do if you're, but what do you do, do, do? Because if you're an agnostic, there should be some behavior that's similar to a theist. Why? Because then you're just an atheist, right? In other words, what practices—I'm a behaviorist in my life. So I judge people on how they act and how they behave, and you know a lot about this.

So do you behave as if there could be a God? You said maybe you want science to explain it. You didn't say, like, I would like to have a personal revelation from Jesus. I would like to encounter him or whatever, Vishnu. I don't care what religion is. But how do you, in practice, live your life such that if God does exist, that it would make a difference in the way that you're perceived or judged, if you will? Yeah.

Well, I don't because I guess I don't know what practice, because I don't know what God exists or what story is true. I don't know what practice is true. Do you think of God, let's say you were Hindu, right? Let's say you're not Hindu. Let's say you are what you are, Presbyterian or the Church of India. But if I had a practice, wouldn't that make me religious? Well, I'm saying, do you think if there is a God, we have to do this matrix, right? Let's say God exists, God doesn't exist.

Stephen behaves like he's religious. Stephen doesn't behave like he's religious, right? So right now you're in one of those quadrants. You're not sure God exists. So you're behaving maybe as if he doesn't exist. I'm asking you, and now he could exist or he could not exist. So imagine you move into another quadrant. You say, I'm going to behave like I'm Hindu or come down to my temple in San Diego, whatever.

You're going to behave in some religion. Do you think if God exists, he's going to say, oh, God, Stephen, you picked the wrong one. It's not, it's not, it's a Jainism. It's, it's, it's whatever. It's, it's, it's Latter-day Saint. I don't think, I think, a revolutionary statement. I think God has common sense. If he exists, if he doesn't exist, it doesn't matter what you do, right? But if God exists, he must have common sense. Meaning that if you make an earnest attempt to understand, or at least engage yourself religiously, not believe and force yourself to believe, not make excuses for evil that

happens in the world or cancer for kids. But if you behave in a certain way, I don't think if God exists, big if, you'll be judged harshly. I, this is exactly the conclusion that stopped me being religious when I was 18. Really? Yes, exact conclusion. Same thing about that. So we'd go to church every week.

We grew up going to church, read the Bible, all of those things. And then when I was younger, I was operating under this assumption that I was going to go to hell and burn if I didn't obey this person in the sky. Then I read these books, Richard Dawkins' books and a bunch of other books on the subject matter. And I heard that God was omnipotent and omniscient, which makes a lot of sense because if you create this world and you're active in it, you must be pretty powerful and pretty knowing. And then I concluded that, I basically concluded God would have common sense. And I thought, he would understand that I'm struggling. And then I concluded that if I basically concluded God would have common

sense. And I thought he would understand that I'm struggling. And he would understand that as long as I live a good life, and I'm not murdering people, and I'm not mean to people, and I'm kind and I'm respectful to people, and I'm a net positive on the earth, then if heaven does exist, any God that I would want to support anyway would let me in. And he would understand that I didn't have enough information to put my flag in any particular religion. So he would let me in. So my thesis then became, well, just be a good person and you're kind of hedging your bets because any decent god that's, I think, worth supporting would go, that was a decent person.

He couldn't quite see it, you know, whatever. But you wouldn't see it a little differently. I'm sorry to push back. But if you, let's say, I say I want to get in shape, Stephen. And yeah, I deserve it. I've got kids. I want to be healthy, live a long life. But you see me eating, you know, I wouldn't eat cheeseburgers, kosher, but hamburgers,

french fries, you know, just, well, like, you know, whatever we'll understand. Like, in other words, you would agree that if you knew God exists, you would behave very radically differently, right? If you had an encounter with God, Jesus or God himself, right? It depends. If I knew for sure that he existed and a particular book and doctrine was correct, I would 100% behave in line with that book and doctrine was correct, I would 100% behave in line with that book and doctrine. But if I knew he existed, but I didn't know which book was correct,

then I probably would behave exactly how I do now. Because the behavior, the practice, the Sabbath comes from one of those books or doctrines. Right, but even if you couldn't choose, right? What if it's possible that all of them are right and all of them are wrong? In other words, we are so frail, fragile, and inadequate to the task of understanding what the true nature of God is that He made it such that—again, I'm not saying this is true—but it made it possible that there would be ways of interpretation for how He existed, right? Like, I as a Jew don't believe in Jesus's divinity, right?

But I don't fault my friends, you know, J. Bodichar. I don't fault him. I don't connect. In fact, I think it's beautiful that that's his avenue for worship. He believes that Jesus died for his personal sins. Now, you would admit that you would have, Jesus will still die for your sin, or, you know, he did die for your sins if you're an ax murderer. You know, so I just think that level of saying, of saying, as long as I don't murder anybody, it's like me saying,

well, if I'm destined to get into shape, I'll get into shape, my metabolism will work it out without me taking the serious action and working hard. Because you do it in the rest of your life, right? And by the way, I'm not proselytizing. It's actually forbidden in my religion, I'm not proselytizing. But that concept of God is that Richard Dawkins doesn't believe in, I also don't believe in that. Like, he's omniscient, he's going to prevent babies from dying from cancer, he's going

to do this or that, like, that's where they make fun of it. Or they relegate it to the friend in the sky, you called it, right? I don't believe there's a friend in the sky. I don't think that even makes sense. But I believe that we are seeing something so heavily refracted, again, if it exists. It's like showing a microwave telescope, you know, showing Bicep or the Simons Observatory to, you know, Gog who lived in a cave 200,000 years ago. Like, there's no way to get from there to here. But that doesn't mean there isn't an ultimate there and an ultimate here. For me, let me just say the final thing I want to say, because I don't want to make

too much about this, but there's a value in practicing even if you don't believe. Just like I say sometimes, even if you got divorced, you should still get married. Because it changes you, and it opens you up to the full panoply of human experience that a lot of people don't get to experience and when people have the capacity, the capability to do it, they should in my opinion. By the way, I'm not advocating to get divorced either. But the point being, you obviously wrestle with it.

And interestingly enough, the word Israel, which is the central country of Judaic faith, means fight with God. It means wrestle with God. El is God, Rishar El means fight. So how do you wrestle with it? Do you wrestle with it? Do you think about it? Or do you say, you know, I'm not going to read these books that I read before I was 18 because it seems so childish to me now. I do. I certainly wrestle with it. So when I say wrestle with it, not in a way that is causing me any pain or agony or deep frustration, but it's...

It's kind of, yeah, it's a recurring thought. And I actually think from doing this podcast and just, I could maybe growing up and the journey I've been on, I have more questions now than I ever have since I became agnostic at 18. So I have more questions now. It's funny, I've been on this bit of an arc where I was certain when I was younger that God was real, and then I was really certain that the God I believed in probably wasn't real. And now I've kind of found myself going back to a position where I'm like, almost like I'm starting the research project again to figure out what actually is real. I sometimes wonder if I'm looking

for the wrong thing because I think because we've been so indoctrinated into this idea that it is a man in the sky and all these things, the white beard and stuff, so we're looking for evidence of that, but maybe I should be searching for evidence of something else. Is it a feeling I'm searching for? Is it? It's interesting that you said that. It reminds me of Einstein. Einstein said, he never asked his father, what would happen daddy if I was traveling at the speed of light and I looked at myself in a mirror? And he said, it was good I didn't ask those questions when I was five, because my dad would have given me the standard answer of the 1800s, which was, you

see your reflection or whatever. And then Einstein said, I would have just accepted that. And then I would never have gone on to create the theory of relativity. What you said echoes what he said. Because if you had asked these questions and just accepted the belief that you had when you were 12, you would not be approaching them with the maturity of a Stephen Bartlett at age 32. And now you have this perspective. You have a wisdom that you've accrued from your life experiences, from the millions of

people that you've helped around the world, to expose them to different things. And you're on a journey yourself. So anyway, I don't have tolerance for scientists that dismiss it and say it's stupid and all that. But I also find that religious people are too comfortable with saying everything is described by God. Everything happens because of God. I see this a lot with religious children.

Sometimes I'll go into kids' school and teach them about science. I'll bring these props and stuff. But when I talk to them, sometimes I'll say, like, oh, look, there's a rainbow over there. Oh, that's great. Where did it come from? And they'll say God made it. I think that's—I joke—that's a form of child abuse. If you just say that God made it, you're A, completely ignorant about the science, but

B, you're also diminishing God's power, right? If you say no, actually that's an effect of water droplets, which are formed of hydrogen, oxygen, and here's their chemistry, and here's how they form a different state of matter when they're in collective, and here's how that causes light to diffract at different wavelengths, and here's wavelength electromagnetic radiation. Where does that come from? And you keep asking the question, why, why, why, why, why? Only when you get to the question, the answer, the final answer, I don't know. That's the only time I would say, okay, God could come in there. But that takes you back. You know, that whole chain of refraction,

of light, of dielectric material, of wavelengths, of color, all that stuff, that takes you back to almost to the Big Bang, which then intersects with what I do. You said that you think of God as almost like a force. Do you think it's a conscious force? If I sit down and pray to this God, will they hear me? I honestly could say I don't know, but I know that you'll change. I know that you'll hear yourself. If you can go down to the ocean, Steve, if you can go down to the Pacific Ocean and just be isolated and just pour yourself out for an hour, I guarantee it will change your life. You will be in tears, but no one will see you. That's the thing.

That's why you have to be alone. You cannot do it with any other person. You must do it on your own because there's no Sam Harris meditation waking up app. It's not going to do the same for you. It's just you alone and not knowing is part of the point, I think. But what's that got to do with God? What's me going down to the beach and pouring my heart out, which would get me into my amygdala or get me thinking about, you know, make me emotional? I can imagine, you know, even listening to a certain music can make you feel that.

What role is God playing in that moment? Because if God exists, I do believe that He's inside of you and that you can connect with Him. Again, you can't detect Him with an MRI machine. You can't detect Him with a laser. But you know, can if He, again, it's a big if. I'm not guaranteeing. I'm sorry to disappoint.

I'm not that kind of doctor. You know, I can't give you a prescription that'll make you believe, but to have access to it, you have to be open to communication, right? Imagine you got an email and you just never respond to it. Like, remember the movie Interstellar? Have you seen that movie? So the people on Earth are communicating

with the people, Matthew McConaughey's daughter, and she doesn't know if he's listening, and he knows that she's, but in that sense, he's kind of like this guy, like he has knowledge that she doesn't have. But if she doesn't try, maybe she wouldn't, maybe just the aspect of trying, the attribute of trying is what opened her up to that return signal, the communication that she eventually received. So interesting, because when I asked the question about, can God hear me? And if he can hear me, I guess the second question is, can he do anything about what

he's hearing? There's so much evidence in the world that he can't hear you and he's not going to do anything about it. But again, you say that, but like, what if, you know, who knows? If your parents, you know, like they were, lot of the stories in the early in the Old Testament are about sterile barren women that couldn't conceive, you know, from Sarah, Rebecca, to Rachel. All these women, they couldn't conceive, they cried out, they prayed. And again, women are closer to God in many ways because they contain life within them.

Again, in what sense are you not already the recipient of the beneficence of something that you just don't understand? Potentially, yeah. But when I ask this question about like, could I, if I pray, is it going to influence my outcomes in any way? You know, there's a natural disaster. I don't believe it does. I don't believe it does for the reason I said before, like, if people were praying here

for the Dodgers, I'm sure there were equally virtuous people praying for the Angles. That's what I mean. If you think about the scientific methods, we could apply that and say, does prayer work? Right. And you could get, I don't know, look through history at the Holocaust or look at some other world, so natural disaster and think it has praying swayed the probabilities of bad things happening to these people. So I don't believe that at all, but I do believe that fundamentally a person who believes that their actions have some impact will feel at least a sense of gratitude. Let me give you an example.

You're familiar in Christianity, you know, people say a blessing before the meal, like grace before a meal. So in Judaism, you do that before the meal, after the meal, sometimes during the meal. But the point is, the more you express gratitude, you cannot be a happy person and be an ingrate. The more you're grateful for, like the sound of a song that is just so meaningful to you, the sight of a painting or a sunset. And in Judaism, we say blessings for those things. If we see a meteor shower, we say a blessing.

It's hard for me as an astronomer, you gotta say bless—a rainbow. Another thing, those are like kind of things we become desensitized to in life. And we just take for granted when you taste a fine wine or you taste some delicious food, again, it could just be chlorophyll. Here's Stephen, here's your plate of agar gum. Like okay, great, I could live. Here's whey powder. That's all you ever get to eat.

And you'd be like, this sucks. I know what I'm, I had. And if I could only go back to it after I get out of the situation, I'm going to be so grateful. To me, that grateful gratitude connects to the ultimate source of that provided, that we can't understand. It's true. I cannot give you, and I told you,

I have problems with prayer, because I don't like to be told what to do. I don't like to be told I have to say this in this order, stand up, sit down, fast on this day, do this thing, not eat that delicious pink guy with the curly tail. But when you do that, you know this, the more your discipline, the happier your life is. Who's more happy, the guy who eats everything he wants

or Jocko, the guy who eats everything he wants or Jocko? The person who just gives in to all their temptations of alcohol, the person who abstains and elevates what they do. And I think we want to elevate ourselves above the level of the animals. But I can have all those behaviors of like a gratitude practice. I can have a meditation practice. I go down to the beach. I can do all of those things. And I still do all of those things without the need of a God. And I'll get all the benefits of those things. When I express gratitude before I eat, or sometimes when I'm getting on a plane and I touch the plane to remind myself, and I can almost make myself emotional just thinking

about how remarkable it is that I get to do some of the things I've been able to do in my life, to the point of like physical emotion. Yeah. But without the presence of needing to equate that to a God in any way. So I'm trying to find, I guess I'm searching for where God fits in all of this. Why is God, why is a God required? Is it just because I have so many blessings that I should be thankful to someone for these things? Which I do contend with, like, okay, let, think about how my life has changed in the last 10 years

from going from some of those shoplifting pizzas to sitting here and getting to do these... It's remarkable, you start to think you're a little bit in the Truman Show, if you think about it too deeply. And you do feel, you think, who do I thank for this? So you think, do I thank my parents? Do I thank myself? So do I thank my parents? Like, do I thank myself? So do I thank God? But is that the reason? Just to be thankful.

But then I go, there's a bias there because there's kids in the town in Botswana that I was born in that are still in the town in Botswana that I was born in, and they're not doing so good. So did God not like them? And then if you go, no, God likes both of you, then I go, well, then God isn't responsible for this. It was something that I did, or my parents did, that are responsible for this, so I should thank them. So where does God fit again?

And I just go around in these loops and I go, I don't know, are we trying to create a God to make sense of the things we feel and the experiences we have and the baby that grabs our finger and the gratitude and the solar eclipse and the sunset? Are we trying to give that to someone because the awe is just so much? Or did God give that to us? Mm.

Well, I mean, the perspective that you're bringing is obviously you've thought about this a lot. And obviously your attitude is healthy and I think that you have, you know, unbalanced. I think, yeah, obviously living is a good life, even if you're, I never say that an atheist can't be a good person or can't be happy or any of those things. The question is what, where does it augment and affect your life? Like for example, I don't know if I would give 10% of my income to charity, before tax income to charity, if it wasn't a commandment in my religion. But I don't feel shame for that.

I don't feel like, oh, you needed religion to tell you this? Because again, I'm still searching just as much as I think that you are. I don't feel like as untroubled by the answers of it, right? I don't feel like that not knowing for sure that God exists, which I don't believe is possible anyway, that that should be an impediment to me practicing, giving charity, being in a community, raising my kids with an appreciation of their history and their culture, and just the contributions of their religion, of your religion, whatever, to the world. So if you found out from this new project that you've launched, this $200 million project

that you've launched to figure out the existence of, I guess, not the existence, but the origin of the universe, the origin of life, if you found out unequivocally that God isn't real, convinces you to the point that you now believe that God is not the creator of the universe. And that, I don't know, you figure out some other way we can create universes in little labs and maybe a thousand years from now we can create our own little universes from nothing somehow. Or we find out we're in a simulation. Yeah, whatever.

Exactly. How does that change you? Because I'm a behaviorist, I really don't feel like my life would be better to act as if God doesn't exist. In other words, if I know God doesn't exist, then I'm going to act like he doesn't exist, right? That's a logical assumption. Yeah. Right?

So I'm going to stop giving charity? Like, is that going to make me happier in life? Is that going to benefit society or my part or, you know, Zeus or whatever doesn't exist? Like I already know that's not true, right? So I've kind of done this experiment. All these other gods I know I don't believe in, Ra, Akhenaten. So you wouldn't do anything differently? Benefits to my life are so substantive that I would not change my behavior.

But you're being guided then by your behavior and the rewards from behavior, which is pretty much my life. Yeah. Well, okay. So, right, the breath work and the rewards from behavior, which is pretty much my life. Yeah, well, okay, so, right, the breath work and the meditation. Yeah, I'm being guided by, like, if gratitude feels good, I do it. If going down to the beach feels good, I do it. If having a baby feels good, I'll do it.

So, like... Be dangerous to devolving to eat. So, if you add God to my life, we take it away. My behaviors are gonna be the same because I'm being guided by the things that are making me feel good. But I don't think so. You're not like this hedonistic Instagram influencer. No, because that wouldn't make me feel good.

Like, a donut, I've run the experiment, and eating the donut makes me feel okay for the time it's touching my tongue, but then bad for 12 hours when my gut starts reacting badly. So I don't do that anymore. Well, let me ask you this question. So, they found out that working out is eventually, it's actually going to shorten your life, or it's going to do the opposite of what you're intending

it to do necessarily, would you keep working out? How much is it going to shorten my life by? Every ab crunch you do, every bench press takes an hour off your life or something, or a couple of minutes off your life. Ooh, it's an interesting one. I would probably live 10 years less to live,

like 10 years better, like to have a better health span. So if you told me I was gonna live to 100 without working out, or I could live to 90, but I'm going to be strong and fit for those 90 years, I'll take the 90 years. So, in my analogy, that's exactly right. So, I feel like that level of perfecting or enjoyment and the ancillary benefits of gratitude and happiness that I've received tangibly, you cannot convince me, as I can't convince you that working out feels—I couldn't convince you working out is bad.

It feels bad for you. It does something to you, physically, mentally, emotionally. I don't want to say spiritually, but for me to see the benefits, to see the things that I've seen. Look, Stephen, I've buried my father, okay? And in Judaism, one of the core tenets is that it's the highest, it's sort of the highest mitzvah, it's the highest commandment to take care of someone who's died. Why? Because they can't reciprocate. Most of what we do in life, we have some kind of contract, you know, we play by the rules, we do things nicely, we have contractors, we invest in Dragon's Den, whatever.

We're going to get some kind of, there's nothing good, There's nothing that will come out of it that will benefit you. I've seen things. I've seen people that are saints that I can't aspire to even be in their presence of. But it's made my life better. I wouldn't change the things that I've done or seen. And you couldn't convince me it wasn't good for me. And as I said before, maybe you think I'm weak, but I wouldn't have done it if I didn't feel it was commanded to me.

You mentioned the word simulation a second ago. This is something that I've been thinking a lot about. What is, just for people that don't know, what is the simulation theory and are we living in a simulation? Great question. So the simulation theory was really conjectured by a British philosopher, or he's actually Swedish, I believe, Nick Bostrom. He conjectured the following. He said, compute is getting so phenomenally powerful in just our recent time horizon.

So the notion that Nick and others have proposed is that if this is extrapolated indefinitely into the future, whether or not that can happen is a question about planetary resources, you know, part of the reason Elon wants to go to Mars, and I do want to talk to you about Mars in a bit, and that extrapolation leads inexorably to the conclusion that compute will be effectively free and it will be infinite. It will be completely democratized, it will be completely demonetized, it will be almost, as I said, too cheap to measure the expense of computing and it will be everywhere in just a short amount of time.

I mean, remember, the phone that we have, the iPad that you're using. These things would literally be a mythological witchcraft, you know, 80 years ago, and now they're commonplace. And so the notion that Nick Bostrom proposed is that that trend continues into the future, that basically the capability of those computers would be to be able to model entire planets, entire ecosystems, even cultures, communities, maybe even people themselves. So, let's take a parallel detour for just a bit. You're not seeing me necessarily.

You're seeing photons are coming into your retinas, right? Photons are packets of energy, form of light. They travel at the speed of light. They have different wavelengths. The wavelengths we call color. They're going into your cornea, getting bent a little bit, then they're going to your lens, getting bent more, then they're going to your retina and they're getting detected on this basically a detector just like a

sensor in a camera which has pixels, except it has trillions of pixels instead of millions of megapixels or a few megapixels. And those are being transduced. The color gets transduced on cells that are called cone cells. The intensity is the rod cells. And those are getting transduced into electrical impulses that go from the optic nerve right into your brain. And remember Andrew Heberman told you on the show, the retina is the only part of the human brain that's outside of the cranium.

It's outside of the skull. And so it's a part of your brain that's outside, so it transduces it, makes electrical impulses. Those electrical impulses then get conducted like wires conducting electricity, and then those go into your brain, and synapses in your brain, and the neural pathways in your brain can reproduce those. Now, you have an Apple Vision Pro, I think I saw you with once.

So that can kind of simulate, it could make very accurate representation of me, holographic perhaps, and you would want to reach out and touch me. Now imagine, instead of just the physical electronics of a headset Apple Vision Pro, you just inject the electrical signals into the brain. So that's plausible, it's just purely physical material processes. Photons converted to electrons get converted to neuron signals,

get processed in the brain. And so all you have to do is get that input sensory inputs. And you could have a digital retina, a fake retina, and then you just stimulate it, it goes into your brain. They're working on that. Same with sound. Sound is even easier. You put a little speaker in your ear and you'd hear it.

But so the notion is that we could physically just The same with sound. Sound is even easier. You put a little speaker in your ear and you'd hear it. So the notion is that we could physically just be disconnected brains in a vat. We could just be in this vast system, just bunches of brains. Don't ask how they got there. But we're all just receiving stimuli and we're just being fed. I'm being fed an image of you over there. You're being fed an image of me over here. I don't know why.

Nobody knows why this would occur. But the computing power is there. If you think that the Apple Vision Pro, if you were alive in 1971, you could not have necessarily predicted the Apple Vision Pro. It was too far advanced from what we had at that point in time. But imagine it just keeps increasing at any rate you like. Eventually, there'll be a point where every bit of information, every atom in the universe, every photon in the universe could theoretically be simulated.

Again, I don't know why this is, but it would be indistinguishable from our reality according to people like Nick Bostrom and others that suggest this is so that our existence is we are essentially in a simulation. So the notion is that we're all these characters in this literal simulation, run on some computing device, some hardware device, that we don't necessarily understand at this point. And we're calling that God? That is what I was going to get to.

So eventually you get to a point where if you could simulate everything, then you would have to ask, there must be some simulator. I was going to get to. So eventually you get to a point where if you could simulate everything, then you would have to ask, there must be some simulator, right? There must be some master simulator. So let's say I'm a simulation. Well, who simulated me? And then who simulated them? And then who simulated them? So that's the recursion. That's infinite regress. You can't actually get to a base level of a final simulator. And if you did, it would kind of be like God. Like you're talking about this brain in a jar that's created out of silicon and oxygen and whatever we're made of, but it's physically created by human beings. What if you can't pay the power bill that week and you have to choose between unplugging

your refrigerator or unplugging the brain? Is that killing something? It starts to enter into the realm of ethics and maybe even these concepts of a deity. What I've heard and I find quite plausible is, remember I said the implication of having infinite computing is that you can simulate everything in the universe. But can it simulate itself? So I want to digress into what's called complexity theory

There are two different types of difficult things. There's like a complex thing like building an Airbus 320 It's very complicated, right? You can do it if I give you all the parts all the instructions give you the right order and I keep you energized If I like anybody can follow those instructions and make it. The Earth's weather pattern state right now is complex. There's no way that you can actually create that. Like you would need another planet size thing to create that. That's called irreducibly complex. You cannot make it simpler and then build it up

from simpler and simpler things. Unlike an Airbus, you can build it up from smaller and smaller parts and as long as you follow the recipe, if you follow the recipe for the Simons Observatory, you'll get the Simons Observatory. But if you try to simulate, and it may be the simulate the weather, you do need another planet, like we need another planet, just like the Earth, and then we'd introduce carbon dioxide at a certain rate, and we'd see, is it really going to cause it, like that's totally

impractical, right? So the question of these things is, is it really a simulation if it's not 100%? Like you could make a very, very good weather simulation. We do have that. But famously they're only accurate for a few days, right? So how do you build up an accurate simulator? It'd have to be the same. So in other words, do we need like another,

is there another universe where the simulators are that's equally complex to the simulation creation that they made? And then did they stop, like did they get, are they made of silica? Are they artificial? Are they, so there are proposals that you could detect the presence.

It's kind of like you mentioned the Truman Show. Where, how all computers work right now is on this binary code. Zeroes and ones, five volts, zero volts. But that means that the world is fundamentally discretized. It's broken into little chunks, like the screen on your computer or your iPad. It's pixelated. In space, it would be called voxels, volume elements.

And so you can have a large number of them, but it's a big difference between a large number and infinity to really have a continuous, like temperature is continuous, like go from zero degrees to 100 degrees and there's every step in between. But in the simulated world, because you couldn't have, you need an infinite number of computer power to simulate just from zero degrees to one degree,

let alone from zero to 100 or every possible combination. So at some level, you'd see if you zoomed in really close on the thermometer, there's a little jump. So you could detect the presence of the simulator. It's more complicated. Actually, it's done using astrophysical sources called gamma ray bursts and other things that have properties that are seemingly incompatible with their being

a simulation at the most distant and therefore earliest moments in the universe. So right now there's zero evidence for it. Nick Bostrom will tell you, and you should have him on, that that's basically a cop-out and there are ways around that failsafe mechanism. Aliens. Do aliens exist? Yes, aliens do exist. There's an old joke, they're called Hungarians. Hungarians are so many countries. So yes, there's an old joke.

There are aliens, there are Klingons, and they're around Uranus. But I wanted to give this to you, Stephen, as one of the gifts I've brought for you today. This is some soap for you. This is soap. Uranus soap. It's Uranus soap So you want to keep your anus clean? Thank you so much in all seriousness There's no evidence for aliens There's only there's what's I call possibility

Does not equal probability the existence of so many stars in the universe means there's so many planets, which is true We found almost every single star has maybe ten planets around it, and we have 100 billion in our galaxy alone. There's 100 billion galaxies in our universe. We're talking one with 24 zeros after it. That's how many planets there are in the observable universe. Planets. Planets.

People say, that means it's got to be life in the universe. No, it doesn't mean anything. There could be so many hurdles for life to get started, let alone to create complex technology producing life like us, that we're essentially, we're it. And I'm not saying we are it, but I'm saying there's been 0.000% evidence that life exists beyond the Earth.

I know you've had Llew El-Azandowan. The claims that he's making are controversial. They're not scientific. They're government. I'm not dismissing his experiences of people he talks about. They're not persuasive. They're not addressing fundamental characteristics. The universe is vaster than you or I can comprehend. You know, if this was our solar system, the nearest star would be like near San Diego. There's almost no way for us to comprehend how enormous our universe is, let alone how vast the cosmos is.

How much of it can we see? We can see, technically, we can see a lot of the universe. But most of that is way before even molecules formed. In other words, there's no possibility of life. Let's restrict ourselves to the Milky Way galaxy, which is the only galaxy we'll ever be able to explore, et cetera, at least unless we invent wormhole travel like Interstellar.

But for now, we have sent probes. The farthest probe we've ever sent was launched in 1977. It's one light day away from the Earth, okay? So that means traveling at the speed of light, the from the earth. Okay? So that means traveling at the speed of light, the fastest speed possible. Which is how much miles an hour? 186,000 miles per second. 300,000 kilometers per second.

It's only, quote unquote, it's only gotten one light day away. The nearest star is 1,200 times farther away than that. It's four light years away. So it'll never get to that other star. I mean, it took 50 years to get one light day, so it'd need 1,200 times 50 years called 100. So you're talking like vast numbers of millennia to get to the nearest star. And that star, we don't even know if it has life on it or not. And it's not actually going to that star. But the point is, the galaxy itself is so large, and the types of environments in which life can take hold are so precarious.

We tell ourselves a story, like you said, of molecules, and then they start to evolve, and then they get... It's really not known how life got created. It's not known how life came from non-living material, from hydrogen, helium, oxygen, how that turned into a cell. It's a vast challenge in what's called organic, synthetic organic chemistry and the formation of origin of life. And then to say that those entities then evolved into some kind of technologically produced

– if we found a dinosaur on Mars, that would be the discovery of the history of the planet of all time, right? Or whatever, even a bacterium on Mars. That would be an incredible discovery. So some people try to defeat this notion and say, well, life didn't have to necessarily get started on all these planets. It could have started once and then get brought to those other planets through meteorites. This was actually created, this theory was created by the same Fred Hoyle who came up with the Big Bang Theory.

They called it panspermia. Sounds dirty, but it's not. So these meteorites could carry genetic material and they could land on another planet. They could have landed on Earth. That's one theory. That life on Earth originated from another planet that had life on it. And in fact, this is one of your lovely parting gifts. This is what Elon will kill for. I'm going to give you something that Elon doesn't have. This is a piece of Mars.

This is a real piece of Mars. It's 1.524 grams of another planet. I want you to touch it. You can see it's a little bit reddish like the planet Mars. This is much better than the butt soap you gave me. I gave you a piece of Uranus and a piece of Mars. Here's some information about it. I give out, as I said, these meteorites on my website, briankingham.com.

It's lucky winners each month. And I give out the information. This was found in Africa. And how did it get here? Well, a meteorite hit the planet Mars, shattered off debris. That debris orbited around Mars for millions of years, perhaps. Eventually it plowed into the Earth and landed in Africa.

They found it. They said they knew it came from space. They analyzed it. It has the same chemical composition, molecular structure, as the landers that are on Mars right now measure for Mars. So we know 100% that's for Mars. It's incredible. So Elon is desperately trying to get there.

That's your little piece. Please keep it safe. And that's one way that life could have gotten to Mars, from the Earth, right? The same thing happens on the Earth as happened to Mars. So, it could have hit Earth, blasted off some amoebas, some orcas, some kangaroos, whatever, and whatever was on the Earth at the time, and then eventually landed on Mars with the DNA of it, but it didn't take hold, right? So planets exchange DNA.

It is possible, but we don't see life on Mars. If we think about this table, to put in context how big the universe is, if the universe was the size of this table, how big would Earth be on this table? Incomprehensibly small. Not even a grain of sand? No, not far, far smaller. Not even a grain of sand. Even in our galaxy it wouldn't be a grain of sand. Even if this were our galaxy it wouldn't be a grain of sand. No, no, no. Our solar, our whole solar system would be perhaps, yes, one grain of sand. If this were a Milky Way galaxy, which is

a hundred thousand light years across, it would be like one, one grain of sand. If this were a Milky Way galaxy, which is 100,000 light years across, it would be like one tiny little grain of sand. What would be? Of the solar system, out to the planet Neptune. So, what's that, 10 planets or something? Well, we have, there's eight planets in our solar system, including the Earth. There used to be nine, but Pluto's no longer a planet. So, and we're about one third of the way from the edge of the disk of the Milky Way.

So, traveling all across there, yes, we would be perhaps the entire solar system, actually smaller than maybe half a grain of sand. And can we travel to the end of the solar system? Well, we sent this object, it's gone well beyond it, so the edge of the solar system is about four light hours. So in 50 years, Stephen, we've only gone, quote unquote, and I'm not denigrating this, this is a historic accomplishment. We actually put on these spacecraft digitized pictures of human life, of voices, of songs

from every continent, of culture, of recipes, of laughter of children, crying of babies. They put this called the golden disk. Carl Sagan was responsible for this. And they mounted it to it and it's now, well, as I said, 24 light hours away. And the farthest edge of our solar system, the planet Neptune, is four light hours. Sorry, 24 light hours is the Voyager spacecraft. So we've only gotten one sixth of it.

We've gotten only six times the diameter of our solar system. So our entire solar system would be a grain of sand on this table. Less even, yeah, about half a grain, yeah. Half a grain of sand on this table. Less even, yeah, about half a grain, yeah. Half a grain of sand on this table. This table's about two and a half meters, roughly big. And how many tables are there? That's a very good question. We think at least a hundred billion tables, each one with a hundred billion grains of

sand. There are more grains, sorry, there are more stars in the entire universe that we can observe than every grain of sand on every beach, on every continent on our planet. That's really wobbled my head. So there's our entire solar system is half of grain of sand on this sort of two, three meter table, and there are 100 billion tables. So, you know, when you hear that, you go, okay, we really don't matter. Like, we're really, it's so bizarre that we've fallen into the trap of believing that we're like important in any way. And then for me, that even throws another question market towards religion.

But the other thing it makes me go is, surely there's got to be some other life on one of these grains of sands on the 100 billion tables. Again, well, let me just address the first thing. So you're about 10, maybe 15 trillion times bigger than a virus or bacteria. Can that bacteria affect you or a virus hurt you? Of course it can. So size doesn't really make that big a difference in this context, right? Jupiter is a hundred

times bigger in diameter than the Earth. Does it make it more important? I think the Earth is much more important. I like the Earth a lot better. The Sun is a hundred times bigger than Jupiter. Would you like to live there? The point I'm trying to make is size isn't really that important. Number isn't really that important. Number's not really that important. And remember, don't ever forget, we're the only conscious entity that we know about in the universe, right? There's literally like 70 different types of primates, right?

Like monkeys you talked about before, bonobos, orangutans. None of them have what we have. None of them can have this Probabilistically, let me give you an example I've been to Antarctica twice for bicep experiments When I go there Antarctica is the seventh continent to be discovered on earth It's approximately 12 percent of the landmass of the earth That's a huge enormous continent with extreme mountains weather

Extreme cold but the one thing it doesn't have as much life. But if you did that same thing, I said, look, Stephen, there's this continent. You could hardly walk across it in five or six years, even if you're a great athlete. People do it, but it would be very challenging to do it. It's enormous. It's got all the support for life. It's got hydrocarbons. It's got heat. It's got rocks. You can build shelter. You can have water which is most important thing How much life do you think is there? Let me just tell you Stephen. There's it makes up 13% of the earth's surface There's 8 billion people on earth. How many people do you think live there? I mean as a scientist you don't have to be a scientist say I think there's probably you know

Maybe 800 million people there is zero's zero people there, basically. So just the probability, I'm not saying it's impossible. Probability is not determined by possibility. Because the thing with the South Pole is, okay, so there's no one there. And if you put me there and said it's their life and I got a telescope out and I looked around, I'd go, there's no life here. I can't see anything. I think I'd say I'm the only person here.

And then I'd have a positive meaning to myself. I'd say I can't see anything. I think I'd say I'm the only person here. And then I'd a positive meaning to myself. I'd say I must be really important. I might think that I'm a god if I'm the only life there. I'd look around for miles and I'd walk for days and days and days and send out pigeons and whatever. And I go, there's no one, it's just me. But then little do I know that although this little space is inhabitable, if you go get on a plane and go a little bit further, you get to the land of the free. Right. But what if we can't do that? What if there's no plane? What if there's nothing? What if this is all we have? I think that a lot of the sightings and stuff, I've interviewed the top fighter

pilots, you know, in the world that claim to have witnessed these encounters, I've you know, interviewed the top, you know, people that claim these things exist. I've interviewed Avi Loeb. He's a good friend at Harvard. He runs a project. He claims he's discovered material from interstellar technology, perhaps, like a garbage barge that was floating throughout. He's a very eminent scientist.

At no point do I ever understand the fundamental answer to the question, how did they get here? What properties, what physics properties do they use? They always say, oh, well, they defy the laws of physics. Well, I'm a physicist. I can understand some of the most deep physics you want. And by the way, there are many times in history where if I showed you something that was made by the US government,

you would say that is witchcraft magic. Like the iPad thing you said. iPad is just one thing. You know that in the movie 2001, A Space Odyssey, you know that, by the way, I have to tell you this, if you don't know, the word podcast, do you know that comes from the movie 2001, A Space Odyssey? Oh yeah, I've read the article for it. Yeah, it was an engineer who called it an iPod, and the iPod came from the pod in 2001.

So we owe podcasts to 2001. So in that movie, there are iPads. They're guys communicating with iPads, but they thought it was like technology of like 20 centuries from now. No, I'm talking about the technology it would take to make traversable distances out of this incomprehensible cosmos that I talked about. When you apply that thinking to God, it changes though, because earlier you said, we just can't fathom. We can't fathom this creator and the factors that would go into his creator.

So we almost have to, you know, some people just choose to believe. Right. Yeah. And the same can be applied to this thinking of how they got here. It's like, listen, maybe we don't know their technology because it's just unfathomable. Like the iPod or the iPad was 100 years ago. You're absolutely right. So if they're just 100 years ahead of us technologically,

we'd think that they were doing witchcraft. We wouldn't understand the basis of the technology that they used to travel here. Sure. But people like Lou will talk about things that are exactly scientific claims. One of the things in his book, which I read, he hasn't come on my podcast, I'd like to talk to him, but he talks about these craft and the properties of them and how when you're

inside of them, they're bigger than they are when you're outside of them, and how they affect and they interact with human biology and cause burns and so forth. And the technology he's talking about, it's not like some fifth force that I don't know about. It's using the properties of general relativity, of space-time. We do know enough about these things. Whereas, God, you're right, I'm not being so critical maybe when it comes to this notion of God. But remember, I said, I don't have to say I believe in gravity or in string theory or whatever.

We can have evidence for it. So when they make claims that have to do with physics, they should be tested by the laws of physics. When you talk about God, I'm saying I'm stipulating you can't test those with laws and therefore I can't prove God exists, despite how much I would like to or not like to. So what do you think the probability is that we are alone? Do you think we're alone in the universe? I think it's very high.

You think it's high? I think it's very high that we're alone. Let me make an analogy. For us to be here, we, Earth, had to have the following circumstances happen. We had to have, can you pass me the moon? The moon? Yeah. And actually, can you pass me the moon? The moon? Yeah. And actually, can you pass the, there's a globe behind you.

Love to have that. Perfect. Okay. So I put here a globe, and I put here the moon in it. These are almost in an exact ratio of size. This is about how big the moon is compared to the Earth. Now, originally before the moon didn't exist when the Earth was first formed. The Earth condensed out of a giant version of trillions and trillions and trillions of

tons of these meteoritic materials. They sank to the bottom at the core of the Earth. The Earth's core is made of iron. Heavier lighter elements like carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, they kind of accreted onto it. And eventually this super planet formed. And that planet, the early Earth, was called Theia. And it's called that because eventually there was a planet the size of that, give me that beach ball please, Steve, a planet about this size, maybe a little bit smaller.

Just for people that are watching. Yeah. Yeah, so there's a beach ball that's a little bit smaller than the globe that we're looking at. It impacted this early Earths theia. Blasted out material into the solar system. And over millions and millions of years, some of that material condensed and formed the Moon. The Moon and then the Earth formed as we know it today.

Now the Moon is 250,000 miles away from the Earth. It's exactly at the right place and size that we have tides on the Earth. We have ocean tides four times a day. So right now I'm showing where high tide would be, say, where that's part of the Moon's gravity is pulling on the ocean here, so it rises it up. That means that some of the tides on the other side are also high tide and then right angles, low tide, low tide. Oh, so that's how the tides work. Basically, wherever the Moon is, it's pulling the ocean up. Yeah, it's actually pulling the Earth, and the Earth is surrounded by this sphere of water, and so it moves the Earth within that water, and the water gets turned into like a lozenge shape.

So the high tides will be twice a day, and the low tides will be twice a day, right angles to them. So that happens, and we believe that that process is what was necessary to make the materials from the oceans where life started, and eventually get that on the land and fertilize and make people eventually. So remember, I'm trying to explain how we got here. So there had to be this enormous collision from a pre-existing object in our solar system to create the moon and the earth as we know them now. But that wasn't enough. Then there had to be these giant icebergs called comets.

Comets bombard the earth over periods of millions of years. The comets brought the ocean-bearing material that brought water to the earth's surface and minerals and so forth to the earth's surface. Eventually the earth cooled down and those oceans covered about 70% of the earth's surface is covered by ocean as shown here. So that comet had to occur, that bombardment and the fertilization of water, providing of water, hydration of the Earth came courtesy of comets. Then lastly, for us to be here, these guys, these are dinosaurs.

Here I brought an actual representation of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs were roaming the Earth. We know that, right? 65 million years ago, an asteroid about this size, which is about an inch across, hit the Earth, traveling 250,000 miles per hour, something like that, hit it near Mexico in the Yucatan Peninsula right here, created this enormous devastation, this crater,

that obliterated the atmosphere, filled the atmosphere with pollution and basically made like nuclear winter like you and Annie talked about, and that cut off light to plants and eventually the dinosaurs, most of the dinosaurs, almost all the dinosaurs died. Now that allowed mammals, the first mammals were little tiny rodents, rats, right? And I believe all evolution is true, right? So those little rats then eventually evolved and made whales and people and bats

and all sorts of cool stuff. And eventually we came from that. So I've described to you three very important bombardments of the earth. One, earth's moon form from a huge collision. Two, comets bombard the earth, flooding it with water just to ride them out, not too much, not too little, just perfect. And three, a meteor kills off the dinosaurs.

If any of those came in a different order, we would likely not be here. So not only do they occur, three incredibly improbable things, that you would never predict would occur in that order, happened to occur, and they happened to occur in the right order. The first two created life, though, right? Say again? It was the first two of those that created life. Potent, or allowed for life to exist.

Yes, you're right. Because the dinosaur came. But remember, I'm trying to explain how DOAC occurs, right? For us to be here, if there are dinosaurs here, if the dinosaurs had a space program, you know, where they could zap away with a laser and they could deflect the asteroid, they would have done it, and we wouldn't be here, likely. So you're right, but let's say those events occurred in a different pattern.

The small asteroid hit the earth first, nothing happens, there's no dinosaurs to kill. Then the comets come in, flood the earth with ocean, but then this huge thesia hits the earth, the earth forms into its moon, that would have boiled off all the ocean as well. So we wouldn't have any water there for life to exist on. And then the dinosaurs wouldn't even need to exist. So those are just three things, Stephen. By the way, we have also the planet Jupiter,

I talked about before, Galileo discovered its moons. Jupiter is like a bodyguard. It protects the earth from almost every major deadly impact. The moon is also like a bodyguard. See all the craters on this moon that my son 3D printed? He's proud to show it to you. These are death strikes that could have taken out the Earth. Look how big some of them are.

They're as big as the Earth as the dinosaur killing meteorite in some cases. So we have all these conditions. I've only named five or six. Imagine each one of the five or six only occurs with a probability of one in 10,000. One part in 10 to the fourth? Well guess what happens? You take one in 10,000, multiply by one in 10,000, one in 10,000, six times. Just say that.

You get a number that's smaller than the number of planets in the universe. In other words, the probability of all, just those six things, I think there's trillions of things. How life formed, the cell formed, the chemistry the chemistry of biology and then the culture or whatever All those things that form to make us technological I think the probability is is extremely small, which is why I said I think the probability is low that we are that there are other life forms are another way to say it I think it's very high that we are alone

That might be for a reason, you know, there might be some reason. Maybe we're meant to really take care of Earth. Maybe we're meant to really appreciate the blessings of what we have on Earth. If you're an entrepreneur, you're probably going to want to listen to this. It's a message from one of our sponsors on this podcast, which is LinkedIn. If you've listened to me on this podcast for a while now, you'll know that I've been on a bit of an evolution as a business owner and entrepreneur. And one of those evolutions that has become clearer and clearer as I've matured is that the single most important thing in building a business, in building

a company, is hiring. The definition of the word company is actually group of people. And that is the first responsibility and job that any entrepreneur has and should focus on. But surprisingly, most don't. About 80% of my team have been hired from LinkedIn. And I think there's very few platforms, if any, in the world that could give you that diversity of candidate with that much information and data on their profiles. It usually costs money, but for the entrepreneurs that are listening to me, I've got you a free job ad post for your company on LinkedIn. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash DOAC to post your free job ad today. your company on LinkedIn. Just go to linkedin.com slash DOAC

to post your free job ad today. That's linkedin.com slash DOAC. Times and conditions apply. Bet MGM is an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League and has your back all season long. From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of

with a sports book born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with Bet MGM. And no matter your team, your favorite skater or your style, there's something every NHL fan is going to love about Bet MGM. Download the app today and discover why Bet MGM is your hockey home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with Bet MGM, a sports book worth a celly and an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League. Betmgm.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Star signs and horoscopes. Is there any possibility in your view, from everything you've done in your research and

your studies of the universe, is there any possibility that anything up there in the stars is determining our outcomes and our personality and whether he's going to dump me or I'm going to do well on Bitcoin? Is there anything? No, there's no evidence for it in the sense that you can do randomized controlled trials or double blind surveys. You can do exact simulations. As I said, the theory that the position of Jupiter at the moment that you were born can literally

be replicated. There's something like a million people born every day, and then at the exact same time, there's probably 14,000 or whatever. You could do the math and figure it out. For them all to have, for no person to ever have a sort of duplication of luck or circumstance. The effect in terms of physical forces, the gravity of Jupiter, the pull of the sun, the position of the earth in the day you were born. Now, there are correlation effects, right? So you have to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation, right?

So I'm actually born on the most frequent birthday on all the calendars, September 9th. Now, September 9th is about nine months after the holiday season, right? So in Western culture, you know, women are partying, maybe my mom and my dad had a nice New Year's Eve or Christmas party or whatever, and that's led to me being here, right? So there are correlation, so that means that there's a lot of people that are Virgos born on September 9th, none of which are like me. Or in the Southern Hem versus the northern hemisphere, a woman who has gestation during the summer might feel differently

than if she's gestating during the winter. Even though the babies are born at the same day, right? They're just born on opposite sides of the earth. So they will have very different personalities, whereas astrology says they should be the same. It's interesting because people will, especially people that are precious about horoscopes and astrology and those kinds of things, will say, I have just as much evidence for my thing as you do for your thing.

Like they, because they almost consider it to be a religious belief. With people that I know, literally, some people have designed their entire lives and the meaning of their life around meaning that they're finding out by looking up at the stars. How is it different from religion and astrology? There are elements of religion, yeah, certainly it came out of religion. I don't think people now worship constellations or I don't think there's many major religions that are based on astrological contemplation. Maybe without the worship part, but they're seeking guidance in their lives.

They're getting answers from the stars. They're making decisions based on it. Much of their moral compass is being determined. Much of their morals and ethics and decisions and behaviors are being determined by it in the same way that it's being determined by someone that believes in a god. Yeah. It's hard to, you know... I'm a wrong person to ask it some ways. Why do people need this?

People need answers to contemplate the universe. First of all, it's a scary universe, right? We are confronted by things that none of us can understand the entirety of. The brightest Nobel Prize winners, the greatest scientists, the greatest thinkers. We can't really contemplate it. So we go through life, we try to make the best of it, but we also have this sense of self and this theory of self and the theory of mind that we can relate to other people

and we want answers. And I think that is in common. I think you're right. Religion is very, I almost wish, did you ever wish that you were more religious? 100%. Yeah, I wish I was too and I'm not and hopefully my kids won't hear. No, I heard from a psychologist once, he said, you should endeavor in your life that you pass on only half of your neuroses to your kids.

Neuroses. Crazy anxieties, fears, weird pathologies, psychological deficiencies. Because if every parent did that, the species is going to get better and better. But if you keep making everyone as anxious, as nervous, and there's no progress in history, a lot of the zodiac religions that you talked about are astrological religions. They view time as a circle. In other words, a flat circle. A spiral goes into the future.

That's Western civilization. That's Western civilization. That's progress in science. That's forward moving to the stars, to wherever we're going to go, and more and more human knowledge and flourishing. But if you just say, I'm committed to, I'm going to be repeating every year on the birthday, I'm going to be repeating what all that my ancestors did, that's very depressing. And it doesn't lead to innovation to find cures for diseases, to find explanations for

fields and forces and technology that we have. So what is the meaning of life? Glad you asked. To me, the meaning of life is to do as many things that if taken away from you would be devastating to you. That which you do should be so consequential that to not have done it or not have it would literally destroy you to your core. For me, it's my kids. Those connections, the bonds, the hopefulness for the future.

I never said this, Stephen, but... I don't get emotional, but I think about death a lot more, especially in my case since October 7th last year. A lot of my friends and family were impacted by that in Israel, and I've never cried so many times than I have in the past year. But thinking about all those kind of tears and emotions and saying, do I wish I never felt that? Do I wish I didn't have the pain if I meant I didn't have

the joy of having those people in my life? And I'm not ready to die. Hopefully, maybe middle age. I don't know if I'll live to 104, but hopefully, maybe I will. But I've done a lot in my life. I've done things that I didn't think I could do when I was a kid. I've married the love of my life. I've brought incredible souls into the world.

If I did die, I'm not scared. I don't want to. I'm working on my body. I'm working scared. I don't want to. I'm working on my body, I'm working on my diet, I'm trying to do what's right for me, and so I can be here as long as possible. But the meaning of life is making connections. It's making these bonds such that, you know,

you hope that people will be sad, devastated, even when you're gone. So too, the connections that I've made, I can't see my life without them. I don't want to. I don't think about it. That's morbid. To me, it's make those connections while you can. I mean, when I listen to that episode that you did with Annie Jacobson, it's terrifying.

You were like visibly scared in that episode. She's amazing. We don't know. I mean, God forbid, I don't think it's super. It was likely. Maybe it episode. She's amazing. We don't know. I mean, God forbid, I don't think it's super, it was likely maybe it is, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, maybe it's not naive. But the point is we don't know.

The point is we're here now. The point is we might be alone, but that should fill us with meaning to do what we can do uniquely so. Before you had kids, what was the meaning of your life? It was very easy. I wanted to win a Nobel Prize. And that's changed now? It has. It has. Partially because my father was a great scientist. I wanted to show him up.

He never won a Nobel Prize. He won a lot of awards. I wanted to show him up. Now he's dead. You know, there's no one to prove stuff to. You should live life to impress yourself. And I feel like, yeah, if they gave me the Nobel Prize, if someday I would merit it with my team of these brilliant scientists, that's pretty unlikely. But let's say it happened. It doesn't mean what it once meant to me when I was your age. When I was your age, it was an idol to me.

It was your age. When I was your age, it was an idol to me. It was a god. You win it, you're as close to scientific royalty and godlike status as possible to imagine. Much more than an Oscar, gold medal in the Olympics. There's only 200 or so I've ever won it. It's like a small book. And actually, I've talked to people that have won it. Actually, my second book, Into the Impossible, was written by Barry Barish. He won the 2017 Nobel Prize. He told me, Brian, because I always ask my final question, I know we're getting to the end here, like your final question, I learned from you, I have my own final question.

It's if you could go back in the past and meet your 20-year-old self, what would you say to him to give him the courage to do as you've done to go into the impossible?" And he said to me, Brian, I would say to stop having the imposter syndrome. And I said, well, you know, yeah, you just tell me you won the Nobel Prize and he won't. No, no, no. I have the imposter syndrome now. I said, Barry, you're kidding me.

You won the Nobel Prize. How could you possibly have imposter syndrome? He said, Brian, let me tell you something. When you win a Nobel Prize, you go to Stockholm, you meet the King of Sweden. They give you this buffet dinner. You're dressed in white tie, not black tie, white tie. You get this huge gold medal, solid gold.

You get a million dollars, possibly. And they want to make sure you're not going to come back and say, hey, Gustav there, where's my money? Where's my prize? So they make you sign a ledger, not unlike the ledger in front of you. And it has your signature. I, Barry Barras, received the Nobel Prize. And Barry said, I took that book.

The first thing I did is I turned the page. Who won it last year? Who won it the year before? Who won it? I saw Richard Feynman. I saw Marie Curie. I saw Albert Einstein. He said, I don't deserve to be in the same universe as Albert Einstein, let alone in the same book. How could they give the same prize to me they gave to him? And I realized this was like an idol to him too. I said, Barry, I've got good news for you. Albert Einstein had the imposter syndrome.

He's like, you're kidding me. I said, no, no, no, Barry. He had the imposter syndrome and his hero was Isaac Newton. Einstein said, Isaac Newton did more for science and Western civilization than any human being before or since. That's a pretty tall order. How could Einstein live up to that?

But I said, Barry, we'll go one step deeper. Isaac Newton had the imposter syndrome. What the heck? How could he use the greatest mind, invented calculus, discovered the laws of universal gravitation, the principles of optics, invented this telescope? No, no, no. He felt wholly, entirely unworthy of his hero, Jesus Christ.

So much so, Stephen, that he attempted to do the same thing that Jesus Christ did. He knew he couldn't work miracles. He knew he couldn't walk on water and turn loaves into fishes. But he could do what was, in some sense, a greater struggle, which was to die a virgin, as Jesus did. And so he did. So the lesson is, imposter syndrome is normal. Don't idolize something.

Literally, you get a golden image of a man. Who cares? He's a man. I don't care. I take time home with my family over that on the Shabbat, as I invite you down to come to me in San Diego anytime you want. I didn't realize that all of these great individuals felt like imposters themselves, which is, I think, will liberate a lot of people from the way that they feel. I mean, I feel this every day. Like, people introduce me on stage as like an interviewer or a podcaster, I'm like, what the fuck? Just was never conceivable to me. And I know Jack's talked about the same thing. Like,

it's never conceivable to me that I'd be doing a podcast and it'd be big and that people would think you're good at it in some way. I know. For some bizarre reason. No, you're not just good, Steven. Come on. You're at an elite level. You're a Nobel Prize winner. What is that? What is that though? I mean, and how did that happen? I didn't go to school for that. I just sat here and started asking people questions in my kitchen. And then more

people tuned in and they said, you're good at it. I'm like, what does good mean? I didn't go to school for that. I just sat here and started asking people questions in my kitchen, and then more people tuned in and they said, you're good at it. I'm like, what does good mean? I don't do it the same as Rogan, and Rogan's good at it, and Huberman's good at it. I've been with them all. Look, you have a unique angle that is not replicable, but I want to leave you with a mission that kind of has guided me. And again, I've learned a lot from you.

It's no secret I have the high energy opening into the… Can you imagine how hard it is to take someone who's studied some chemical pathway and some thermodynamic system to make it like the hype show that you guys open these episodes with? I learned that from you. But Carl Sagan said, what an amazing thing a book is. In it, you have the words of a long-dead author, and're reading it to yourself and he or she is communicating with you across the ages.

Nowadays, people, millions of people have you in their ears and you're communicating potentially across the generations and you're, again, I don't want to keep, you know, be like a Jewish mother, but your kids, your grandkids, they're going to have access to this. It's not going to be some, even a book, which is wonderful. It's going to be visceral, audible, and it's going to have an impact you can't even imagine right now.

Creep me out. I can't look, wow. The media isn't doing it. It's crazy. The media isn't doing it. It's crazy to think about the impact and the lasting impact that this medium might have because of the internet. But just even books now, books are turned into audio books and to digital books and such.

Look at this last election. This was like the podcast election, right? Not going on a podcast, going on a podcast. And there are many people that attempt to imitate what you do. And, you know, I don't do it for money. I don't do it for my career. I do it for fun because I want to give back to young people the way that I learned from Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov. I read their books. It inspired me to be a scientist. When COVID hit in 2020, they couldn't do book tours.

And so I invited all my scientist friends to come on. I had some Nobel Prize winners come on and just keeps amplifying. But I view it as, you know, for me it's a passion project, but it's a way of giving back, returning to the community from whom I've taken so much. I've learned so much. With that in mind, with this knowledge that what we're creating, what all of us are creating, whether you have a podcast or not, or you're just writing on the

internet, whatever it might be, with the knowledge that it's going to sustain and it's going to be here potentially in many generations to come, how does that, how is that supposed to change how someone creates? Because I'm thinking, you just said that to me, I was like, Jesus Christ, that's quite profound. But then seconds later, I was like, almost like the simulation theory, I just thought, fuck it, crack on. Do you know what I mean? Just carry on with what you're doing. Because if you can, you can get too deep into it that you can either distract yourself or ruin yourself from the essence of what makes the thing special. So am I meant to change in any way with that knowledge?

I think you are. I think you're doing it already. I mean, you've spoken again. I've tried to study the glimpses of morsels that I can comprehend. The experimentation process is a process of fundamentally being dissatisfied with the current product, even though it's wonderful and it's great, it's top, top, you know, leading in its category. But still, just not being satisfied. You always want to make it a little bit better, see what works, see what doesn't work. That's pleasurable because even when you get a failed, there's no such thing as a failed experiment in IT students, you always learn something and that brings you closer to truth.

And that's what is so meaningful. What I was wondering, what I thought you were going to say is like, when you're out in public and people see you and I asked this of Lex and Joe, I want to ask you too, as put on my podcast or turn the microphone to you. There's a scene in the book Animal Farm where there's this donkey named Benjamin and he's talking to the pig. And the pig says to the donkey, you know, I love your tail. It's so big.

I got this short little curly tail. It's good for nothing. You got this beautiful tail. It's so big. I got this short little curly tail. It's good for nothing You got this beautiful tail. It could sweep away the flies and the donkey says yeah, but you know what? I wish I didn't have the flies so I wouldn't need the tail. I want to ask you do you ever Worry about the attention. Would you ever trade the attention the fame the lack of, the intrusions, the, you know, everything for the alternative. I don't know. What do you? It's funny because when I go to answer that question and I remove all the downsides from my life, they're like glued to the upsides. So I'm like, so it's always a question of

like, is the trade-off worth it? It's the question that I ask myself all the time, every week, every month. And I remind myself sometimes, I said this to Trevor now, but he told me that it gets to a point where you can't just reverse the decision. Right. I try to remind myself that there's... I could delete this podcast, I could quit Dragon's Den, I could delete all my social media channels, and I could right now go to Bali.

And I was playing this out the other day in my head, I was thinking, you know, if I say to myself that I'm optimizing for peace in this season of my life, then why the hell am I doing all this stuff? Because this is not peace necessarily. And then I play out the scenario, I go, OK, so I'll move to Bali, I'll chill out there, I've got the financial means to just live there for the rest of my life, I'll chill and then I'll start... Oh, fuck!

This is where it goes, it goes... OK, and then I'll start writing. Yeah, and then I might start making videos about what I'm writing about. Because that's what I'll do. Behind the diary. Yeah, and I'll start painting. You start creating again, and then if the creations are good. You want to show it. And then you go share it to someone, and then they're going to buy it, and whatever, and

then you're back here again. Look, I think that's what you're meant to do. I think people have a mission in life. I don't have a body to be an Olympic athlete, but I have a mind of curiosity. This is what you're good at. This is what you should lean in. I always feel like, do I teach my students to overcome their deficiencies or do I teach them to lean into their successes?

I always feel like progress feels good no matter what. I'm trying to lose weight. I lose a pound. It feels so much better to lose a pound than gaining. It feels awful to gain an ounce You know, so the the fact is are you useful? Are you doing you know, Freud said there's only two things in life work and love it's all you got to do you were doing your work doing your love take your vacation and Enjoy Bali for a while at last and then come right back

Brian we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is, if you found out that the world was ending in 10 minutes, who would you want to speak to and what would you tell them? Ah, that's easy. I mean, it's horrifying, but it's, but it's easy. Well, first of all, I'd call my friends at NASA and tell them to direct the giant space. No, it would be my wife.

My wife, you know, it's funny to think about how improbable life is. But when I got fired, I told you from Stanford, she was actually an undergraduate there. And luckily we missed because I'm eight and a half years older than her and I would be some lecherous 28 year old when she was 20. I got fired. I felt it was horrible. Turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. Got me a job. That job led to this experiment called BICEP. That experiment called BICEP took me to the South Pole. It took me to the brink of a Nobel Prize, but it also brought me to San Diego, which is her hometown. We would not have met.

We didn't meet at Stanford. We were literally 100 feet away from each other at one point. We wouldn't have met. She was meant to be. If I hadn't gotten fired, if I hadn't been dreaming and fantasizing about experiments that I wanted to do, not to be someone else's employee,

but to be my own CEO, my own world, my own laboratory, my own brand. I wouldn't have met her. I wouldn't have my precious, precious kids. There's no doubt it would be to call her. And what would you tell her? I would just reminisce about how we met and what we brought into the world and, you know, kind of sure we'd laugh and cry. Right. Thank you. Really appreciate it. It's been such a wonderful conversation and I highly implore everybody that's listening to go and check out your show to go and read your books, all of which I'll link below. Super fascinating. And also to go to your website

if they want to be in with a chance of winning some of this space material, which is I'm so amazing that I have this. I'm such a big fan of space and SpaceX and everything that's going on out there in the universe. So thank you so much for this present. You can keep the Uranus soap, but I'll keep the piece of Mars. The work you're doing is so important because it's helping to demystify and helping us to understand the nature of some of these really profound questions. Not ever because we're seeking to figure it all out so that we can change how we live, but just because

there's so much beauty and joy and meaning that is derived irrespective of what the answer is. And it's people like you that blow our minds open in a way that helps me, even though I'm never going to build a telescope and I'm never going to go to the South Pole and I'm never going to point it at the sky and I'm never going to seek to answer these questions in my life, but your work expands my mind. It expands my thoughts of possibilities. And as an entrepreneur, as a creator, I think that's a net positive for everyone that receives the work that you do. It's so wonder, it's so bizarre that we're so curious about the stars, but it's such a beautiful thing. And long may you continue.

There's very few people like you. And I was thinking the minute we got going today, I was thinking there's very few people in the world that are both smart, which is, I think, pretty common, but then able to communicate. And that is really I've met you and Neil deGrasse Tyson, who have this remarkable ability to communicate science in a way that inspires, galvanizes, and sort of cultivates curiosity. It's a really wonderful thing.

Wow, I appreciate that very much. And it's exceptionally rare. That combination of forces, like you said about the probability of the comet hitting the universe and that bouncing off and creating a moon. The probability of those two things happening in the same place is so exceptionally rare. But it's wonderful that we have people like you in this world of podcasting because, you know, maybe once upon a time, it would have been harder to hear your voice, but now everybody can go and listen to you. And I highly recommend they do. Your YouTube channel is exceptional. So thank you so much, Brian. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure.

It's been an honor for me. Thank you, Stephen. This diary won't change your life, but the habits it teaches you definitely will. The most unhelpful advice I ever received was don't sweat the small stuff. You have to sweat the small stuff. I sweat the small stuff.

I always have, and I always proudly will. Because small things that are easy to do are also easy not to do. It is easy to save a dollar, so it's also easy not to. It is easy to brush your teeth, so it's also easy not to. It is easy to make a 1% improvement, so it's also easy not to. Understanding the power of compounding 1% you can absolutely change your outcomes in your life. It isn't about drastic transformations or quick wins, it's about the small consistent actions that have a lasting change in your outcomes. So two years ago we started the process of creating this

beautiful diary and it's truly beautiful. Inside there's lots of pictures, lots of inspiration and motivation as well. Some interactive elements. And the purpose of this diary is to help you identify, stay focused on, develop consistency with the 1% that will ultimately change your life. We're only going to do a limited run of these diaries, so if you want one for yourself, or for a friend, or for a colleague, or for your team, then head to thediary.com right now. I'll link it below.