The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Building A Business Empire WITHOUT ANY Marketing: Five Guys CEO: John Eckbert

Episode Date: August 11, 2022

John Eckbert is the CEO of Five Guys in Europe. By far the most successful ‘posh burger’ chain in Britain, John tells us how he took a classic concept to a whole new content by inventing a unique business model. Five Guys in Europe is not just a franchise, but John rather started from zero on a joint venture which has so managed to eclipse the dozens of other similar businesses that launched at the same time, and then some. As well as dishing out profound business and management advice, John walks us through how a sea-change in his personal life left him feeling trapped and alone. But John fought fires at both home and work in order to make Five Guys what it is today. We’re so glad he did. Five Guys: https://fiveguys.co.uk/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. You know, when Barack Obama left the White House to go pick up Five Guys, that's what makes Five Guys. We're going to go get some burgers. Party won. That's what makes Five Guys a treat and special. John Eckford, the CEO of Five Guys Europe. Five Guys has a global cult following. Five Guys burgers and fries. It was banging. Covent Garden was the very first Five Guys outside of the U.S.

We knew that we weren't going to be advertising. We're entirely relying on someone tasting a great burger and frying it and telling their neighbors or their friends. It has to be, that's fucking fantastic. That Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world. It did, yeah, by far.

I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now. How do you stop getting a little bit sloppy and complacent? We've actually gotten better. The key to that is... As the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, when was your hardest time? So I had two young children. The fact is that there were moments where they woke up and needed both their parents

and I wasn't there. You'll hurt the people you care about in ways that you don't intend, in ways that you don't understand. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. John, I've read quite extensively through your story. And I guess my first question is, when you think back to your pre-20s, right? What are the most important things from that era of your life that shaped your perspective and approach to the world and to business today? Wow. Well, first I grew up in a very counter-cultural isolationist family. So we

didn't watch TV. We didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays. And I kind of got up at 5 a.m. to practice violin for an hour before school and had music lessons after school every day. And so it was very different. And I think I always, I think I grew up feeling different with this kind of longing to have a sense of belonging. And that was always something that I was looking for in my professional life, I think, as well. I would have been a fourth generation doctor if I'd gone into medicine. And my father told me that the profession was changing and it wasn't so much about patients and doctors and kind of the relationship that can develop in terms of health and bringing your health to your doctor and getting advice. And

it was changing in America dramatically. And so he said, don't do medicine. I'm not encouraging you to do medicine. So I knew I had to kind of find a different role in life. And I read Anne Rand in high school and not suggesting that she's gotten everything right. But one interesting thing that she did propose was that there could be something noble in business. Being a successful entrepreneur could be a noble thing. And so the kind of orientation from my family was make sure that you do something important in your life. And that meant taking care of other people or doing something that had some greater purpose to it than kind of just making money. But that seed of a thought that being in business could actually be a noble profession, and you actually could do something important to make people's lives better

and take care of people in a different way in business was kind of, I think, an important penny to drop for me when I was 18. But yeah, it was definitely a different upbringing than most. And that sense of belonging was something I've been searching for my whole life. Do you think you've been searching for that sense of belonging more so than the average person?

I think so. I think if you have something in abundance, you take it for granted, maybe. And it was something that I definitely didn't have. And I very much felt, you know, an outsider looking in. And I saw this, you know, other people had community, other kids had community and kind of broad-based friendships and a sense of really kind of relaxed belonging. And I kind of always had this kind of anxious drive that, you know, looking for that.

And, you know, I think business was, you know, certainly lived that out in the business world as well. You had quite a journey through banking and being what we'd call a regional counselor and all these things. And eventually you came back to the UK, kind of where I wanted to start this story off in 2010, I believe. That's right. Your good friend, Sir Charles Dunstan, who was the founder of Carphone Warehouse, and you went into business originally, and then you went on in search of a new business to sort of partner with him on. Yes.

And that's kind of where the Five Guys stories begins. Yes, well, I'd been a student here a long time ago and lived in a tiny basement, one room flat, much smaller than this studio is. And Charles lived upstairs with his sister and girlfriend and they invited me up for drinks one day. And they pretty much adopted me for my year abroad. And we went to their parents' home in Cambridge and to Norfolk for a holiday. And so they really made England feel like a home. And it was always my ambition to return with a non-stents budget to England. And so the chance came in 2010 and moved back here.

And Charles had just spun TalkTalk out from Carphone Warehouse. And so I guess you can't be CEO of two publicly traded businesses. So he became chairman of both and CEO of neither and began thinking a bit more as an investor. And we got to talking and thinking, what's the next big business opportunity that we could leverage his experience and reputation in retail? But we wanted something that Amazon wasn't so much a threat to as electronics. Online felt like a real threat to that industry segment. And we thought food and beverage has got to be a segment that's a bit more protected from the online world.

You kind of have to show, this is before delivery kind of blew up. You kind of have to show up and eat your food where it's prepared more. So we thought that that would protect you from the online competitive world. But we didn't know anything about food and beverage. Neither of us did. And so we went looking for a great concept that wasn't in the UK

that we thought could bring that expertise. We could bring the kind of operational UK property knowledge and hiring practices and market knowledge and partner with someone who would bring that food and beverage experience into the proposition. And we talked to so many US concepts that weren't here and eventually kind of collided with the Morel family. There actually are five brothers and their mom and dad. So there's seven

in the family, but five brothers who are the five guys who founded the business. And they were looking to go global after having pretty much allocated the US amongst their franchisees. How many, so how many other concepts did you think you looked at? And was there any near misses? Was there any that you thought, you know, maybe any other concepts do you think you looked at? And was there any near misses? Was there any that you thought, you know, maybe any other concepts that you nearly committed your life to? Yeah, so we talked with a lot of different concepts and still in contact with a lot of those concepts. And some of them have been really helpful

in terms of building the Five Guys business here. So, you know, if you can use insight from another concept that maybe isn't a competitor or isn't here, that can be really helpful. And some of those still may come to play. Then why Five Guys? Well, I think it starts with the product. It's such a simple, fantastic product.

It's just burgers. The menu is like shockingly stark. I mean, it is burgers and fries and that's it. Um, and, but it, you know, when you, when you take a bite of a five guys burger, when you, when you, when you have fries that are cooked exactly right, it is, it's magical. I mean, it's, and it's fantastic. I mean, it's a world beating product. And that was, that was, I think, you know, there's so many concepts that had gone, like, broad. You know, like, you know, there's so many concepts in America, like, you can get everything in the menus like a Bible. And, you know, you kind of flip through the section.

You're like, how can they possibly be preparing all this stuff at the top of the game? And Five Guys was going, you know, completely against that, against that, which was, everybody told the Morel family, you have to have a salad if you're going to be successful. You have to have chicken. You can't just have a burger on your menu. And they're like, when we add other stuff to our menu, it just blows our mind. We lose focus on making a great burger. And so I think part of their genius has been focus. You know, we're going to do just one thing and do it really well. I mean, that was the thesis for the founding of the business was, if you're going to have your mom over and make burgers, you know, what would you do?

You would buy the highest quality ingredients you possibly can. You'd make everything fresh. That was, I think the Morels were so far ahead of their time when they founded the business in 1986 because there's literally not a freezer in the Five Guys equipment infrastructure. Everything is obsessively fresh. And right before we signed the joint venture to bring them here, there was a study

done that said the number one criteria that anyone across the UK looked for in determining where you were going to eat was the freshness of the food. And whether it was white tablecloth or at a fast food place, it didn't matter. That was the most important criteria. And that was like the Morales thesis that, you know, everything had to be freshly prepared that day or it went. it didn't matter that was the most important criteria and that was like the morels thesis they you know nothing everything had to be freshly prepared that day or it went um it's interesting because conceivably it seems to me like they were very much at the right place at the right time there was this macro change in public perception and awareness around food and what's going into food organic and vegan all these kinds of these conversations around food

started to emerge, which seems to have hurt a lot of big brands in a very fatal way, whether it's in the sugar-based fizzy drink industry or whether it's in the fast food industry. It's conceivable that the world could have gone another way. Maybe we could have doubled down on liking even faster food that has more crap in it, right?

Yes. So I just wonder how important you think timing was in their thesis catching that sort of public wave coming into shore. No, I think you're very right about that. Our fries have three ingredients in it. Potatoes, the peanut oil we cook it in, and a dash of salt. Some of our competitors, you know, have like 16, 19 ingredients in their fries. You're like, what else could there be in fries? You know, so from our perspective, our, you know, our fries start as potatoes in

the beginning of the day. They're hand washed, hand cut, and then twice cooked to a very specific standard. And, you know, just keeping it, again, just keeping it simple. And I think it's very much, I think they positioned themselves in front of a tidal wave without knowing it. And that trend of freshness, I think was a huge win for the family. I think the other thing that they did, which was very early on trend, even early for when we found it here in the UK, was customization and having something exactly the way that you want it. We have 15 free toppings, which means that you can have every burger 250,000 ways just by the combinations of those toppings. And everything is made by hand just for you. We don't cook anything until Steven walks in and says, you know, this is the burger that I

want. Now, the challenging thing is, is that as soon as you've placed your order, there's 249,999 wrong ways to make your burger. So the customer, one of the, one aspect of customer service is getting that right the first time. But customization was new. I think, I mean, in America, you know, it goes back to Harry Met Sally and the way she ordered her salad in the, you know, in the restaurant, you know, is, you know, an example of how Americans want things just the way they want them. But I think that's been a newer thing to Europe. You know, like the chef should know, you know, chef tell me how I should order this. And saying, no, no, no, it should be exactly the way you want it.

And I think that trend is certainly the millennials are very much onto that. You know, I want it exactly the way that I want it. And Five Guys is really ready for that. The whole machine is like, I liken it to putting a Ferrari engine on top of an ox cart and then racing it around a track. So we're very old school, very analog in our production.

It's very manual. Everything's handmade. And yet we can do a 4,000 pound hour out of Oxford Circus making burgers and fries. You'll see kind of 25, 30 people running around madly behind an open kitchen making your food. I think that was the other secret

because Five Guys doesn't advertise. So there literally is no way for us to tell someone who doesn't know Five Guys what we're about or what makes us different or special. We're entirely relying on someone walking into the restaurant, seeing how the food is prepared, tasting a great burger and fry, and then telling their neighbors or their friends, hey, look, you've got to try this.

So having an open kitchen where you can see that freshness and the customization, I think, has been part of the success of the business. It's almost like there's a set of really strong values underpinning the business, and the business has been reverse engineered. Maybe not even reverse engineered, because when it's the case of a founding family still running it, I'm sure it all comes sort of intuitively to them. But so in hindsight, we look at it and go, that's the point of genius.

That's the point of genius. But it all comes from these underlying values one of those is about the freshness of the ingredients and all being very real so of course the kitchen would be open right because you've got nothing to hide yes but in hindsight you go well you know that's that's genius well no it's it would be strange to hide away the kitchen in such a context but um that that particular point about the kitchen being open at five guys is very different from all the other fast food restaurants that came before five guys that dominated the high street where you'd order the burger and then something would go on in the bag and then you'd get this thing wrapped up given to you yes i've also seen this trend with

all these fast salad outlets where they put all of the vegetables, the carrots and the cucumbers on show in front of you as if to say, these are the carrots that are going to go into your salad. And it's more, you don't really, you don't think about it as a customer that much, but somewhere subconsciously it's really, really, really matters, right? Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, part of the original founding of the business, Jerry Morrell picked a very obscure location and said, look, if we can make this location work, we know we have something.

It almost was like a speakeasy, you know, where like, you know, knock three times and, you know, someone will open the slide window and, you know, you give the secret word and then you come in. And so Five Guys kind of had a little bit of that kind of coolness factor of like, hey, let me tell you about Five Guys.

It's amazing. And maybe you haven't heard of it, certainly haven't seen it on TV or on the radio, but it's amazing. And if you come find out. So when Barack Obama left the White House in his limo to go pick up Five Guys for his office, that was a great example of how, of course,

everybody knows who he is, and that's kind of like a megaphone, but that's how Five Guys was discovered. That's how Five Guys built its business, was one recommendation at a time. And I can remember Covent Garden was the very first Five Guys outside of the U.S. And we'd spent a lot of money paying for the bar that was there to leave and then building the first Five Guys. And we were quite nervous. We were well into seven figures for the first store. And the night before opening, we were like, what happens if nobody comes?

And Jerry Murrell laughed and said, you know, look, you picked a good location. Someone's going to walk by here and they'll walk in. We'll make them a great burger and they'll tell their neighbors and it'll be fine. And of course there was a queue at 4 a.m. in the morning and there was a queue around the building for the first two years that the business was open until we opened up more five guys around

there because people had tried it in america including me i tried it and i think i tried it in america before i tried it here i'm 99 sure that i tried it on my way to gochella one year or something but and then when it came here i was like oh that's that amazing burger place from america is that why there was a queue around the corner when you opened? It was. There actually is a burger blogger community that's global. Ah, okay. And everybody talks about burgers and it's one of those very articulate communities

and there's a lot of debate about who has the best burger and why it's the best burger and Five Guys is in that debate, in that mix. And so we're really fortunate for that. And actually, when Charles and I were thinking about who to do business with, it really was when Charles flew over and went to Five Guys in Manhattan was like, this is fantastic. The product's fantastic. One thing that we did really differently in the UK was the property approach. We thought the product was a category winner. It was the best

that we could find, but it was positioned from a property perspective and mostly in strip centers and kind of B locations in America. And we thought, let's give it the property presence that it deserves. And I think that positioning was a really important distinction that we made. Richard Collier, who owns our property, has done a fantastic job of picking the flagship locations to say, there isn't a better premium burger than Five Guys. And we're going to make sure that you discover us partly because of where we are. So you chose aspirational locations because you wanted to make the brand aspirational, essentially? Well, we knew that we weren't going to be advertising.

So if you can't tell people about who you are, you have to rely upon the footfall, which essentially becomes a word-of-mouth accelerator. So if you have a lot of people walking by your store, some will make the decision to come in. And then that larger group who comes in then kind of tells everybody else. And that's really the way the business grew and worked. You know, you have this rule where you don't do advertising. Has there ever been a time where you thought, fuck, I just want to just run a little Facebook ad? You know, the pandemic comes around, things start changing in the world. You think, fuck, I just want to, you know, I know you joined some of the delivery services, which was a big decision for the UK

because the US hadn't done that previously. That's right. But in those moments, do you not think, fuck, I just want to run a little? It's real tempting, isn't it? You know, I mean, you know, when you think about the dashboard that most food and beverage executives have,

you know, you have an advertising dial and beverage executives have, you know, you have an advertising dial that you can crank, you know, you can choose the quality of your messaging and the budget that you put in it and the way that you spend it. And all those dials are gone and off the table. So, you know, it does focus you on the things that you can do, which is making great burgers and fries, hiring people who are passionate about it. You know, kind of back to the whole people thing, the people who are in the store make such a difference. You know, food fundamentally is about passion. We all have, you know, you remember the great food experiences that you've had, you talk about them, and it becomes part of your, if you're on holiday, having great food is part of that experience.

And having a passion about food is so important. And having, you know, I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now. And 8600 people a day get up and put on a red shirt and go into work in a Five Guys. And whether those people who are actually shaking fries and grilling burgers care about the product that they're making, the food that they're cooking, that's all the difference. Because all we have is the customer eating a great product. It can't be good, right? If a customer takes a bite of a burger and goes, huh, that's really good, that doesn't move the dial. Nothing happens.

It has to be, that's fucking fantastic. You know, I'm going to go tell somebody who else, who do I know who likes good food? I'm going to tell them about a burger or a fry, you know, the fries at Five Guys. It has to be that level good. And you only get that level good. And you only get that level good with people who pour their passion and their care into the food that they're

preparing. And having that many people care about burgers and fries is the, you know, I think the, what makes it successful. You know, that sort of psychological device that's making people want to tell their friends. Do you spend much time thinking about exactly why that is like what is the why would i care if i've had a great burger why would i care psychologically to tell my best mate about that burger what is it doing for me that's next level thinking steven okay and and and actually is is the And actually, one thing we have been able to do is to encourage the Morels to widen their thinking a bit. And delivery was a great example of that, where they opened up a store near the Pentagon, and a general called up Jerry and said, I'd like 1,000 burgers at noon. And Jerry bought a big sign and hung it up, no delivery and put it on the side of the building. Um, and you know, the thesis was right, which is that our burgers and

fries taste best right off the grill. You know, it's the best food experience you can get. Um, but we convinced him that actually it wasn't just your cheap local, um, you know, guy who was delivering food. It was actually really high quality food and more and more people were actually looking for really good food delivered. Did he come and try it here? Yeah, yeah. From delivery?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Before it went to delivery? Before it went to America, for sure. But we convinced them that all of the better restaurant concepts were actually heading towards delivery. And so, gosh, five, six years ago now, we started, we launched delivery in the UK and it really worked. It kind of became about 20% of our sales. And they saw that, of course, it's not as good as right off the grill, but it actually is a good product and people like it and it can work. And if you work with your delivery

and you have a commitment from your delivery partner to take care of the food as it's transported to the customer, it can really work. And we did a lot of stuff like, you know, telling people to, you know, turn your oven on 200, pop the fries in for, you know, just a couple of minutes. It'll really, you know, liven them up before you eat them. So they saw that it worked here and they picked it up. And of course, during the pandemic, it worked here and they picked it up. And of course, during the pandemic, it was our lifeblood. You know, it would have been a very different journey if there hadn't been delivery in the system. But we've been able to convince

the Morels that some of those things that were rules of the brand before can actually be good for the brand and can work. And delivery was a good example of that. And I guess that's important because the world is changing. So like stubborn values are really good to some extent, but in a changing world, it's almost a bit like the Bible. You have to be able to look at the thing again and go, huh, maybe, you know, so. Indeed.

And actually in the morale's defense, you know, they've become successful. Who they are is saying no to change. And actually in the morale's defense, they've become successful. Who they are is saying no to change. When everybody told them they should do a chicken sandwich, everybody told them they should do a salad, they were like, no, no, no, it's too complicated. We take our eye off the ball and the kind of core of what we do.

And helping them to discern that delivery actually is okay. You can be the best burger being delivered. Because it doesn't compromise on their values, those core values of serving food that your mother would love, basically. Exactly right. So they're willing to innovate, but I guess they're not compromising on their values then because those core values are still there,

but now it's just about distributions changing a little bit. Well, you have a customer who wants a great burger and they happen to be watching the football match and they're like, I am not leaving my chair, right? I'm watching the football match and, but I want the best burger I can possibly get. So that customer, you can still reach and you can give them a really good product. When you think about the incumbents, then those, we'll talk about just the burger incumbents that were there in the let's say in the european market before five guys arrived why do you think now from everything you've learned that incumbents often fall what is it gosh well you know i i all i can say is that i think part of it is the the most enduring concepts will survive. And I think if you look at Five

Guys, you know, Five Guys wasn't successful because we put a slice of avocado, you know, on a burger. So it wasn't, there was nothing trendy about Five Guys. You know, the kind of, the 15 toppings that, you know, you can put on a burger, whether it's, you know, grilled onions or mushrooms or cheese and lettuce, tomato. Fresh is trendy. Yeah, it is trendy, but I can't imagine it ever going

out of trend. I mean, there are restaurant concepts where you walk into their kitchen, and there's a little bank of microwaves, and they pull the stuff out and pop them in the microwave.

I mean, I can't imagine that anyone would ever go, let's go back to that. I think fresh is now an enduring expectation across price points. I mean, if you can have a Five Guys that's incredibly obsessively fresh, why would you not if you can have, you know, a Five Guys that's incredibly obsessively fresh, you know, why would you not if you could? One of the things that I sometimes think about why incumbents fall is that quality and attention to detail declines as growth increases. So the more locations we have, quality, I can see from your face, this is, but obviously I think about, you know,

I won't name names, McDonald's, but I just think, you know, the more locations you have, especially this underlying franchise model will really ultimately hurt the quality of the product. And if it hurts my quality, going back to what you said, if I have a bad burger in Milton Keynes, I'm less likely to go into McDonald's in Thailand. Yes. So, I mean, you know, it's funny, I mean, you know, McDonald's, I would say is actually a really strong competitor. I mean, they, they, they give you what they say on the 10. Is it declining? I don't know the numbers, but is the, is the, I know you're not, you're not trying to slag anyone off here, but is my thesis is those, those businesses are in decline because there's been this new wave of like fresh and, you know, almost all of our customers also go to McDonald's. And, you know, if you,

if you look at the frequency of Five Guys, you know, McDonald's has a huge frequency, you know, eight times a year, more a year, which actually ends up being, you know, people go there a lot. And Five Guys' frequency is much lower than that. And, you know, Five Guys is a year, which actually ends up being, you know, people go there a lot. And Five Guys' frequency is much lower than that. And, you know, Five Guys is a treat. You know, it's not something, you know, like a competitor of mine that I think very highly of, you know, Pret's done an amazing job with who they are. You can go to Pret pretty much every day, right? And, you know, the subscription coffee stuff, you know, all that kind of, you know, stuff works on a routine basis. You can't go to Five Guys every day. I mean, I go to Five Guys pretty close to it,

but eat a burger that kind of frequently. But most of the customers are going a couple times a year. So from a frequency perspective, I think that's what makes Five Guys a treat and special. So on that point about the incumbents and what makes them fall and scale being one of those key factors, how do you guard against that?

You've got 225 locations, you said, in Europe that you're managing. Yes. How do you stop the 226th location getting a little bit sloppy and complacent and then serving bad burgers? Yeah, gosh, Stephen, that was my primary concern when I, you know, I was, Charles and I structured the joint venture together. We, you know, we hired the first

employees, you know, and opened the first restaurant and, you know, it had such amazing momentum, you know, it was just kind of this explosion of five guys. And it was, you know, really, you know, fun to be a part of. And in my, the kind of this explosion of five guys and it was really fun to be a part of. And the kind of thing that keeps you up is, okay, we're going to grow this business as fast as we can because we know we have something. How are we going to keep the intensity and the energy and the passion that we see in the store in Covent Garden. How do we make sure that every one of these restaurants has that kind of intensity? And that was the most, that Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world when it launched. It did. Yeah, by far.

I mean, we underwrote it for like a five and a half year payback. It paid back in two years. I mean, it was just a phenomenal success. But yeah, I mean, the thing that kept me up at night was, you know, how can we make sure that, you know, we opened up in Milton Keynes, we opened up in, you know, the smallest, you know, we're going to open up a store in St. Andrews, you know, how do we make sure that those stores have people who are absolutely passionate about burgers and fries and taking care of hungry customers? And that I will say has been one of the biggest surprises of my tenure in this business is that we've actually gotten better. And the key to that is hiring very talented professionals and trusting them. And my personal style is a very hands-off style of management. I mean, if you expect me to

micromanage you, we've gotten off in the wrong the wrong place is the wrong fit. You know, we hire professionals who are really good at what they do and let them do their job. And finding those people who are absolutely operators. I'd say the other bit is that we are very operations led. I was a banker before, before this, but I'm fully qualified in a five guys kitchen. So I can do every task that you see in making burgers and fries. I'm certified to do that. There are people who are much better at it than I am, could do it much faster than I can. But if you have any credibility in the business, you have to be operationally capable. And hiring operationally capable people who are really good at identifying and qualifying those people who can run a store and bring that passion into a store. That's been the secret of

the growth of the business. Because having that kind of commitment from the person who's showing up and running a shift, that's what makes a restaurant successful. Going back to that point about values, I would imagine that, you know, from speaking to actually sports teams and speaking to the players in those successful sports teams, whether it's the Manchester United players that were under Sir Alex Ferguson for 20-odd years,

and they said something to me which was really interesting and I never forgot. Ria Ferdinand said to me, he said, how many times do you think Sir Alex Ferguson came into the training ground changing room? said I don't know you tell me he goes twice in 26 years and I go why and he goes well the culture was in there so he didn't need to come in and it spoke and then he told me about when he moved to another football club and in that same training ground changing room they're all bickering and talking about how much

they're being paid and like slagging things off. Whereas Sir Alex Ferguson never needed to walk into that room because the culture was already in there. And it made me think about how, you know, to keep the specialness of what made you successful at one location, when you have 225, those values in that culture must be so strong. So if I'm starting at Five Guys in a management position today, what are you saying to me to turn me into a Five Guys disciple? Well, I guess we do actually have values that we identify with inside the business. And hiring right is essential. I mean, there's so many talented food and beverage professionals who are really good at their job, but who are a terrible fit for us.

And so being able to find those human beings who work in a five guys. So a general manager works in the restaurant with customers, with crew, making burgers and fries, taking, resolving problems and issues. There's not a laptop job in a five guys. So someone who's looking for kind of, you know, kind of ice skate above things and, you know, not really getting your hands dirty, that's not the right fit for us. So I guess the first thing we did was, you know, kind of ice skate above things and, you know, not really getting your hands dirty. That's not the right fit for us. So I guess the first thing we did was, you know, when we opened up,

nobody knew who Five Guys were. So we had to beg people to work for us. And of course, that's always a mistake. We hired a lot of the wrong people and you have a lot of churn early on trying to find what that right fit is. And so I remember it was a really important decision we made where we're essentially going to invert the equation. And we said, you know, five guys is a really hard job.

And it's probably not for you. And then kind of be quiet and look for the woman or the guy who kind of raised their hand and said, that kind of sounds good to me. Um, and so having the kind of negative sell on working at five guys, I think was a really important distinction that we made. But once you get into five guys, we have five values that, that we build our business on. Um, and that's integrity. Um, you can't, once you lose your integrity, everything else is easy. So having integrity and how you lead, being competitive and, you know, wanting to win and going after the business, being enthusiastic, having passion sense about the human beings who are on your crew and the hungry people who are coming into your store and treating them like family, then getting it done. Not overcomplicating it. Our business is, you know, our menu is simple, our business is simple, but it's really hard. But making sure that you have a very much results-oriented

focus as a manager. And we actually train and teach those values. And when you look at the pandemic and how Five Guys comparatively surfed through the pandemic, it was because we taught those values and we all absorbed those values into how we thought. And then when you had to be agile and nimble and flexible, you knew what the objective of the business was and all the managers just beautifully adjusted their business to reflect the opportunities that they could take. How do you go about instilling those values in team members beyond the day when they're hired?

Is there certain things you're doing every quarter? Is there daily emails? Like what are the touch points where you're using them as an opportunity to say this is who we are, by the way? Yeah, well, I think the first thing was a card from a deck that you played was we launched an app right,

like within a week of the pandemic falling, we had been planning to have an an employee oriented app um but we launched the app um right when the pandemic struck we're like we have to be able to communicate because we were none of us knew what was happening and being able to be in direct touch with every human being in the business was such a um a great tool. And we immediately had like massive down, I mean, it was universally kind of accepted as a way to communicate with inside the company. So I was recording something pretty much every day to say, you know, here's what's going on. Here's what the rules are. Here's why it's going to be safe to come to work. Here's how we're going to protect you and your family

and the crew and the customers in this environment. And being able to have that direct line of communication to the whole company was really powerful. It kind of cut through a lot of the fear and uncertainty about it, one. Two is that we're now investing massively in learning and development. We, 75% of our managers are promoted internally. Um, so these are people who have joined us. We have people who have joined his crew and gone on to be district managers, area managers now. So that kind of career opportunity, um, is fantastic. So if you're ambitious, if you're have, you know, career goals, come to five guys, cause we're growing and we're,

we need your talent to, to grow the business. So being able to, first of all, we know that that internal development is kind of the best path to growing inside of Five Guys and having new leaders for all the restaurants that we're opening. We've got to invest in the young people who are joining Five Guys and teaching them not just burgers and fries, but how to manage people. There's so many different kinds of people that it takes to make a restaurant work. How you communicate with one crew member may be very different from how you communicate and motivate with another one. And giving our managers tools for how to connect with all different kinds of

people who work for them is an important investment that we make. Before the pandemic happened, I think I said a lot in this podcast and just generally that my single biggest learning being a young entrepreneur starting in business and then making all the mistakes and then getting a little bit more mature was the importance of talent.

And I always say that by definition of the word company, the definition of the word company means group of people. It took me too long to figure that out because when I started, I was 20 years old. You know, you just hire your mate here. At 18 years old, I started my first company. I hired, you know, my friend here. I met someone at a rap event.

I was like, you can be my marketing director. Went into Prada, met another guy. I was like, you can be the head of our accounts. It was just that kind of whoever was willing, right? Great people, exactly, probably who I needed at that phase. But for the next phase, you need to, I learned that you need a different caliber of person. And really, I should have been a bit more ambitious from the jump, if I'm being completely honest. And so now I reflect on it and think, damn, in fact,

every company is just a recruitment business at its core. Like if I had hired Steve Jobs, I would have bound them with the right culture and values. I would have had an apple, right? I would have made an apple. How important do you think it is to hire the best people? And how do you go about that? What is the strategy? Yeah, well, first of all, I think we had the benefit of seeing the success in five guys in the US. So Charles and I had a conviction that even before we opened the first store, of course we were nervous when we opened it, but that we thought we had a tiger by the tail because we thought the product was fantastic. So we were able to assemble people who were proven to be really good at what they did from the outset and kind of like across the board in the senior management team so

julie spear who's my head of operations unbelievable we wouldn't be where we are without her richard collier who's head of property i mean he opened up 2400 stores for car from warehouse all across europe really established professional. Those two were essential. We would never be where we are without those two individuals. But then kind of driving that all the way down to the first crew person who you hire for a new store, hugely important because they're actually going to be making the burger and fry for the customer who walks in there. And I think that it's probably an urban myth, but the Shackleton story about, you know, putting an ad in the paper for his, you know, South Pole expedition, you know, it's going to be

dangerous and risky. We'll probably, you know, we may not come back alive, but if we do, it'll be glory. That kind of negative sell, I think was a critical point for us where, you know, Five Guys is a really hard job, huge expectation, physically demanding job. It's not for everybody. And, you know, stating that being confident enough to say, look, you know, you're a very talented human, you know, professional in food and beverage, but you're just not the right fit for us. And being the confidence to say no in that regard, that was hard. But I think that was a real turning point in the business for us. What about firing people? It's the worst part of the business. Really hard. You know, I mean, it's, you know,

if you get it wrong, it's so painful. You know, these are people who you know, who are human beings. And if the jobs either outgrown them or they were the wrong cultural fit, it's really, obviously it's hard for them, but I mean, it's really, it's a soul crushing moment, which makes it that much more important to hire right in the interview for culture. You know, but when an interview finally gets to

my level, I am 100% focused on culture. I mean, the whole qualification of their professional skills has been addressed by the time they get to me. And I am solely focused on, are you a good cultural fit? Are you the kind of person who, you know, obviously is good at what you do, but are you going to be when we're in the trenches and when the chips are down and we have to make the hard calls, are you going to value the same things that I will and that we do as a company to make your decisions? What is your philosophy though for moving people? And you have a clear philosophy around hiring people. What is the philosophy for moving people on? Because I've made, this is is again one of my other biggest mistakes in my professional career

was allowing people who were clearly not right fit to kind of overstay their their journey with my company i just wish sometimes that i had because the net damage of that when you your gut tells you this isn't this is not the right person, but maybe for whatever reasons, emotional reasons, you don't act fast enough is so severe. Yeah. We, you know, I mean, I, I, first of all, I think, I think you can't, you have to make the decision that's best for the business. Um, and, and, and realizing that this business is bigger than any of us, um, including me, um, you know, I can be, I'm, I'm hired and fired by, by my board. Um, you know, Charles and the Morels can decide any day that I'm not the right guy to lead the business going forward. And certainly at the executive level, to me, my expectation is that everyone should have that

expectation. It's a privilege to have the jobs that we do. It's not a right. Um, and if, if there's a, if there's a tough decision to be made, um it clearly, cleanly, and directly is the best thing. There's no reason to be negative about it, but you do have to be very direct about it. And quick? Quick is really important in my book. There is a bit of a difference between the UK and the US. The US favors that quick side of things. book. You know, there is a bit of a difference between the UK and the US. You know, the US has a favors that quick side of things. And I think I probably fall into that category. And that can be

a challenge in an environment where there's like, you know, what about a six month garden leave? I'm like, what is it? I'm not sure what a garden leave is. I went the other way. So I launched a business here, then we took it to America. And I'm like, what, two week notice period? Everyone has a two week notice, but what the hell is this? Yeah. And it's really just a box and, you know, please, you probably should leave now in America more than, more than not, it feels like. But, but I think once you've made that decision, it's, you can't move soon enough because, and it's rare that someone is, that you would consider it to say, I really don't think they're right for the job. And that that person kind of recovers to it to say, I really don't think they're right for the job.

And that that person kind of recovers to being a superstar, right? That almost never happens. So if you do have that, I'm not sure that, I'm not sure this person's right for the business, either from a talent perspective or from a cultural fit perspective. You know, it's probably, I mean, I think you need to listen to that urge

because it's probably right. And actually it's a favor to that human being as well because they're going to, whether it's talent or if it's a cultural fit, there may be a fantastic opportunity elsewhere for them. And all you're doing is holding them in a – you're holding them back professionally because they're never going to fly in your organization, but they might in another court and another culture. So I know it never feels like that, um, to say, you know, look, I'm doing you a favor by, you know, telling you that you, you know, not to work here anymore. Um, but if you know, someone's not going to be successful in your business, it is best for everybody to do that quickly. And, um, as soon as you can actually. How important have you realized it to be in the Five Guys business and for the success of a Five Guys brand

to have a real high attention to detail and to sweat the small stuff? Because a lot of businesses don't sweat the small stuff. They kind of see it as being petty or not mattering and they kind of focus more on like the big decisions they make. But what's your sort of philosophy towards the small stuff? Um, well, first of all, I think being operationally focused is something that defines your business. Um, and for us, so our details are the standards for cooking burgers

and fries, and you can never focus on that enough. And if you're not actually cooking burgers and fries, you better be supporting someone who is in the business. So that kind of horrible disconnection that you can sometimes have of a head office, people who call it the head office, we call it the back office, from the actual business, to me is the death kn, certainly for a food and beverage

business. So having that connectivity to the detail of the purpose of our business, which is feeding hungry customers, to me is essential. Now, from a detail perspective, I don't want to get into the details of my IT guy or my marketing team or the property team you know I've hired people who are fantastic at that and I don't want to be into the details I can't be into the details of each of those professional expertise that you hire for you have to hire talent and let them do their their professional expertise but how do you check that, you know, if something, say something in one of your stores and say like, we mentioned Milton Keynes,

so let's just keep focusing on that. In Milton Keynes, if standards have dropped because of the leadership there, how are you checking that those standards are staying high? Yeah, so we mystery shop every store twice a week. Okay. And we put the money that we would typically that other brands would spend on advertising. We spend an incentive

compensation for crew. So we pay out millions and millions of pounds of incentive compensation to crew to be the, to be the best of the best. Um, and we grade, so the mystery shop looks like 120 points of what, of what's important from a burgers and fries perspective, from a cleanliness perspective, from a customer service perspective. And the top rated shops that perform get paid incentive compensation, meaningful incentive compensation. So I'd say that, back to the competitiveness, everybody wants to get paid, everybody wants to compete for that excellence and to be recognized for that. So mystery shopping,

I think, is a fantastic way of ensuring that we're all focused on the same thing. And if you find a location is continually ranking at the bottom of that mystery shopping scoreboard, what are the next steps of action? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the first question is in-store leadership. You know, who's leading the store? Are they the right person? Do they have the right orientation? Do they have the right values? Are they trained enough to do their job well?

So, you know, we have a very flat organization where you go from general manager to district manager, area manager, and then, you know then basically the top of the business. So it's pretty quick. And I do what's called a mid-year review. I'm actually missing a couple to be on your podcast today. But we have every GM stand and present their store's performance once a year

in June, July, August, in that timeframe. And so I get a view of the in-store leadership. Who is that human being who's in charge of that store? What do they have to say about the results that they've delivered, both from a financial perspective, most of all from a customer service perspective and a quality perspective. So you kind of get a direct view into who is that human being who's running the store. One of the things that's happened over the last couple of years is this pandemic. It's been this very tectonic shift in many industries,

but there are a few industries that have been affected more than like the high street and retail and food and beverage. There's been real tectonic shifts in technology and footfall and all of these things. As the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, how do you maintain your own personal calm within all of that chaos?

Because it is just never ending. And we were talking before we started recording, you've gone from a pandemic to inflation issues to this sort of great resignation and a talent crisis as they're talking about. All of these things happening at once. You're a human being in the heart of that. How do you enjoy your life and keep calm

and not annoy your partner or whatever? Yeah, I'm sure I do all those things. I'm sure I don't keep calm all the time. And that's okay. I think just as we in the business try to keep things simple, focus on burgers and fries, I think there's keeping focused on just a few things and picking the couple of dials that will

determine whether you survive, whether you live or die, and whether you win or lose. And hopefully picking those right things to focus on, I think is the way I try and manage myself as a CEO. You know, I think it's interesting, you know, the moments that I consider to be the most intense and the most rewarding as a leader are the human ones where because I'm CEO, people have to explain what's going on in their lives. And those moments are just rich gold for me as a human being, where someone comes to me and says, you know, I've got a parent who's suffering from dementia, I have to, you know,

have to spend some time looking after that. Or I've had a loss and I've got to figure out how to manage that loss. And those human connection points are, and actually that kind of feeds back into our family value, where we, and as a CEO, I have a smaller direct report community that I have to take care of those human beings. And my view is that if I can take care of those human beings, they'll do their job and take care of their human beings. So recognizing that it's not,

you know, it's not all dollars and pounds and pence. It's not all, you know, KPIs that you can manage. It's not quarterly earnings. It's the human beings. And if you focus on them, particularly on the vulnerable moments, when they're most upset, when they're most at risk, and being able to say, yeah, you know, take a week, take them, you know, what you need as a human being is important for the business because I need you, I need your professional acumen, but I need it focused. So being sure that they're all right in those moments, I think is, gives me the satisfaction that I'm looking for from the job of chief exec. My dad was a psychiatrist and, you know, was obviously clearly focused on mental health and wellbeing and, you know, from a chemical perspective and, you know, realizing that

whatever chemical, I mean, obviously I'm sure he did important work in that regard, but you can, at work, you have the ability to either build up or tear down someone's mental health. And being able to provide an environment where someone's mental health is protected and perhaps even tended to, I think is a powerful thing for me as a, as a leader. And, and I, and hopefully what I see is that, that approach carrying out throughout the business. So that style of leadership is, you know, is, is contagious as a value in the business. So, you know, if someone's in distress in, in a crew you know, the, crew, the shift will suffer. And you have to take care of that person who's in distress and understand them and see what it takes to build them back up and to provide them the support and security to be effective in their job. What about your mental health?

When was your hardest time? My hardest time? In your five guys journey. Yeah. Well, I went through a very painful divorce and went through something called leave to remove, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Essentially, it's the right to have your children taken out of the country. So I had two young children who the court system approved leave

to remove, which allowed my ex to take my kids back to America, which was incredibly painful. And my whole view of myself, my definition of who I was changed. I thought of myself as a great partner, good husband, good father, devoted father. I was in politics back in America, was involved in my community, and a church leader, and businessman. And I thought, all these things are who I am. And essentially, all of that was quite a large bonfire of vanities. And essentially all of that was, uh, you know, uh, uh, quite a large bonfire of vanities. Um, and that was a real dark, dark moment for me. Um, and there were, there were days when five guys was the one thing in my life that was stable and that I could hold onto. And that really pulled me through, um, a very difficult, dark time personally.

How long did that process last? That's part of the UK challenge. It took years. A better part of two years were in that process. And then trying to rebuild those relationships. Thankfully, I'm in an amazing place with my kids now and have accepted that we have had a more adult relationship prematurely. But now that they're both at university, it feels more normal now. And those are hard-fought, hard- won, recast relationships,

which, you know, were really important, are important to me, but was, I was, the thought that they were at risk was, caused just enormous anxiety. And living with that kind of anxiety on the personal side, having a place where, um, you know, things were more, um, predictable was, um, and being able to work in that way and provide for them, um, was, uh, you know, a real, um, yeah, it really helped me through. When your kids are essentially taken

away to another country and you and you've got this huge responsibility of running this big business. How does that impact your ability to show up every day professionally? Well, I mean, it was really complex for me because I had a non-compete back in the US for the business that I had sold. So I couldn't just relocate back to America and do my job.

So it felt like a huge catch-22 because I had these court-ordered financial obligations and the only way that I could really fulfill them was to keep doing my job here. Court-ordered financial obligations as in the separation costs and stuff that you have to pay to your partner. Yeah, exactly.

So it felt like a catch-22. They were allowed to leave, but I had to provide for them, so I had to stay. So it felt like a kind of indentured servitude for a bit. was enormously relieving because I knew that for 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, whatever it ended up being, that I could actually do something productive that I knew I was good at that made a difference for them. And that was the anxiety of being separated, I could set aside for a few, you know, for those hours in a day. And that was really helpful. It could have just kind of overwhelmed me, but work was able to,

it was a place where I could escape from that. Did you see your motivation fluctuate? Often when we have these like pretty substantial life events, there's an initial period where getting out of bed in the morning is a little bit more difficult. It's almost like someone has messed with your why, your reason to get out of bed and your sense of purpose. So you always have to, I've learned from

my own experiences that you have to spend a little bit of time. You're almost faking it to get, to get the drive back, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, of course. No, well, you know, I told you I got up at 5 a.m. when I was a kid and practiced violin for an hour before school. And I was never a great musician, but what I did find was that if you did something every day, you actually could get better at it, maybe even more than competent.

And I think it was something like that that just in me, you know, said, you said, get out of bed, do the next thing, and things will change. I called a friend of mine who'd been through a similar situation, and he said, just keep showing up. Texting my son every day, calling every day, being as present as I possibly could. And obviously it's imperfect and it's deeply upsetting, I'm sure to them as well as to me. But doing as much as you possibly can to be available and in touch.

And then you just have to trust, trust something that it'll be okay. Trust something? As in just trust life that it will? No, I mean, you know, now we're getting very personal even, but, you know, I believe in a higher power. I don't pretend to understand it, but I think there's something much more powerful than I am in the world. And what I will say is that it helped me to see the world in two camps. One are things that I can't control and some things that I absolutely can't control. And if you spend, if you allocate your

mental health and your time on the things that you can't control, you can drive yourself to distraction and eventually madness. So being able to focus on the things that you can control and realizing that that's your job. You know, your job as a human is to do the things that you can control. And if you, you know, it's just arrogance it's just arrogance and, and, um, ignorance to, to focus on the things that you can't control. Um, and so identify those, identifying those two camps and being at peace with that, accepting that you can't, some things you can't control. That's really hard. Um, but it's hugely important. Yeah. I, I was at this festival this weekend and there was a, I did one-on-one meetings with lots of people that were in the audience for three hours and i found myself being asked over and over again how to deal with exactly that which is when chaos arrives in our lives what to do on that day and people had me recording

these voice notes for them for that day so when that day comes they just wanted to be able to play it and what you said that is exactly what i said which is there are a small list of things you can control and on that tough day make a promise to me that you there are a small list of things you can control. And on that tough day, make a promise to me that you'll spend a hundred percent of your mental energy focusing only on those things. Cause you can't, cause obviously yesterday focusing too much on that tends to lead to depression is I think the loose how the philosopher says focusing too much on tomorrow and the things that are yet to be in your control will also cause a lot of anxiety. So really focusing in on today, I think is just phenomenal advice in terms of, um, a, it's the thing that's most conducive with a successful outcome, but B it's also the thing that's most conducive with having a healthy mental state in total chaos.

No, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I think the other thing is that realizing that our, I believe our purpose in life is human connection. Um, I think that's why we're here. I think we're made to connect. And sometimes it's, you know, we're colliding, you know, and more than connecting, but figuring out how to connect with other human beings. And I will say, you know, that was the making of me as in being able to, you know, when someone comes into my office and says,

you know, I've lost my partner, they passed away way before their time. You know, being able to connect with that person in that moment of loss is hugely valuable as a company, but hugely meaningful to me as a human being. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't been through the loss that I had experienced. So, you know, it's one of those things where you end up being grateful for the most upsetting things that happen in your life, because I think they're the making of you in many ways. Because of what you said at the start of this conversation

about that importance of feeling like you belonged, and it's so evident that that is much of the reason you've also been successful, is you're, I mean, even from this short conversation we've had, you strike me as a very empathetic person who is able to connect with others. That moment must have been presumably even more difficult because your sense of belonging in

that moment was, was taken from you to some degree, the family unit, right? No, for sure. That was, that was a, yeah, that was a defining moment. Um, but now, you know, the thing about, about five guys is that, you know, we have these 8,600 people who get up every morning and have this shared vision mission to make great burgers and fries for hungry customers. And I get to be a part of that. And, you know, I get to be a part of this larger community that, that has this, and that, you know, winning in business feels fantastic, right? I mean,

it's a real, it's a real high. It's a, it's a, it's a real high. It's a drug and it's an addiction. And being a part of a community that's accomplishing this thing. We were the eighth fastest growing business in 2016, I think, in the UK and the fastest growing food and beverage business. And even with that, we never met a budget that I had made. So we were fastest, but still behind by my mind. And being a part of this community that shares our values and that are all working towards this is enormously satisfying. And yeah, fill something that has always been empty. Some days as CEOs, maybe we're tired or we're in a bad mood or something's off.

We can sometimes not show up as our best selves. And sometimes when that happens with me, I regret it. So I'll go home and think, I just wish I'd handled that situation differently. Does that happen to you a lot where you think, ah, fuck, I wish I'd been in a better mood or I'd slept more today or something.

Yeah. Julie tells me. Who's Julie? Julie, my head of ops. She comes in and says, yeah, you really fucked up that meeting.

That was, that was, um, but, but, but actually having, um, having somebody who,

um, you know, to me, the, the, the, one of the worst things that can happen are these, um, you know, emperor has no clothes where, you know, to me, one of the worst things that can happen are these, you know, emperor has no clothes, where the most important, powerful person in a business has blind spots that, you know, everybody knows about and somehow, you know, you work around. And that's just hugely dangerous as a business. And having people who can come into your office and go,

John, that comment was just way out of line or really unhelpful. You know, you now have people thinking like this. Is that what you wanted? So people who can confront power with truth. And, you know, to me, that kind of culture is hugely important to a company because you can go so wrong with the emperor has no clothes

and people thinking, God, we know this, we just can't tell him to that person. How do you cultivate that? Because I imagine a lot of CEOs and a lot of team members that work for a CEO think, oh, there's no way I could give my CEO and tell him that was wrong or he shouldn't have said that or she shouldn't have said that.

I think publicly owning your shit is really helpful in that way. So showing up at the next meeting and go, hey, you know what? I said this to the last meeting and that was just really wrong. It was off and I was off my game or I didn't think it through

and it should be the opposite of that. And showing that you can respond to that kind of challenge, I think is important as a leader. And then you give everybody else permission to do the same thing. I mean, you can change your mind. You're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to be wrong as a fallible human being too.

And confessing that that it's powerful. That confession there, when I heard, when I heard that example, what it actually says to me as well is that as a CEO, you care more about the correct answer not being right. So that, that might be confusing because of the way I said that. When you come stand in front of your team members and say, do you know what, in hindsight, I actually got that really wrong and I fucked up what you're actually saying is my number one thing as John is to be is to find the right answer not for me to be correct yeah and it's like and it's a really it's really refreshing to hear that you're in search of truth and the correct answer not in search of validating your own, your own opinions and yourself, which as you say, will create that culture of humility where hopefully others around

them will go, I'm also wrong in this situation. Exactly. Well, business shouldn't be an homage to an individual, right? I mean, you know, we have, we're about perfect burgers and fries, hungry customers, clean restaurants, customer service. And that's really simple. I mean, it's not a, and if any of us isn't the right human being to fill the function that we're supposed to be performing, you know, we all should raise our hand and say, you know, it's probably not me anymore. How do people give, do you have a system in which people at Five Guys could give, that are working there in the team, could give critical feedback safely? Yeah, so, I mean, we do have kind of like the scheduled annual conversations. I didn't often.

You know, it was kind of in my, you know, in my don't micromanage. You know, it was just kind of like, you know, people will come to me if they, you know, if they need to. And I think that that probably was wrong. Um, and, you know, saying, look, we're going to have a dedicated time. And, and really, you know, I don't, I don't like fill out a form where, you know, so you did well in this and poorly in that, you know, we don't, I don't do that, you know, um, but I sit and say, you know, let's talk about what worked and what didn't both from, you know, chance for you to tell me what didn't, didn't work, but also for us to talk about what didn't go right, you know, and, and worked, you know, this year for you. Um, and you know, what do we do to fix that? And, you know, how do we, how do we make it better? Um, so I think having a set time to talk about that actually is a good idea. And I've, I've taken that up somewhat reluctantly, but now, um now enthusiastically.

Much of this conversation is centered around Five Guys' sort of central philosophy of really, really caring about the customer. And you talked a little bit about how each store has mystery shoppers that come in and make sure those standards are maintained. Is your objective now to push the standards up even further? Or is it to maintain the standards? No, well, first of all, I think, you know, I'm responsible for Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, UK. And each market has a little different national temperament. And figuring out what constitutes good customer service is a bit of a nuanced thing in each given market.

Give me an example of the difference. You know, does someone want to be checked back on? You know, so if someone's sitting there eating their food, you know, they're kind of like, one of the things we talk about is first mover advantage. You should have your head on a swivel looking around for people who are looking for a solution to a problem with their meal. And I'm sure you've had that. You know, we're like, you know, I'd like some extra topping or sauce or something.

And you can't get anybody's attention. And so teaching someone how to be in tune with a customer who's looking for help. And that's very culturally dependent. Someone can communicate that very differently in the different markets. One of the things i've been thinking a lot about because i had that exact problem recently was i was in a restaurant it was very busy and i feel like i spent 15 minutes like trying to get someone's attention to try and get some ketchup yes um the food goes cold i'm like you know then i start eating it by the time they've come but you really wanted that ketchup yeah it's like they're really and it's gone before then i asked for the ketchup and i've eaten it before the

ketchup so i just have a bowl of ketchup and no food and I was thinking I was sat there in this restaurant in Spain a week ago and I was thinking if they just had

an iPad on the table I could have pressed a button and they would have known and it would have helped them because I'm sure they want to help me they just weren't aware and I would have got helped faster have you not

considered implementing more technology in the place of human beings? That sounds pretty brutal, but it's just the truth. Yeah. No, I mean, technology is part of the solution. And actually, probably your phone is already there. And there's got to be a way to make this communication tool that you already have in your hand

hooked up to an effective way inside the restaurant. Now, more and more young people expect technology to be part of their journey and their securing of the things that they want and need. But there are also people

who are completely opposed to that. We are a very analog brand in that sense. I think that there's more openness to technology than there ever has been before. So we did curbside service, which essentially is like reverse Uber, where we can kind of track your car as it approaches and we can prepare your food

as we see the countdown for your arrival. And so the kind of perfect scenario, which we often get, is where you drive up and the fries have just come out of the fryer and shaken and salted and ready to go, and it kind of like comes together beautifully at the right moment. So absolutely, we should use technology to meet the customer's needs and to address those people who prefer to, who prefer technology to, and also we can't be everywhere and be perfect and every,

you know, in terms of responsive. So yes, technology will be a part of that interaction going forward. It's somewhat caught between two generations, I imagine, because I was in Nando's the other day and the first time they've told me, oh,

you can just order from the QR code stuck on the table. And I imagine my, my dad might not like that experience. Yeah. For me, it was convenient. I was like, oh, you can just order from the QR code stuck on the table. And I imagine my dad might not like that experience. For me, it was convenient. I said, oh, perfect, great. I don't have to talk to anybody. Typical, you know, millennial Gen Z-er. Well, and we should be able to adapt for the customer

because they're human beings who actually view customer service as not having to speak, right? I really just want to stay in my own world and, you know, press a button and get exactly what I want. And, you know, we should be responsive to that. How much do you think the structure and the way that the business, the foundations of the business in terms of it being a joint venture with the Morales as opposed to a franchise, and generally the philosophy towards what you're building

and how long that sort of time horizon is has impacted the product and therefore the customer and therefore the success of the company. Well, I mean, of course, my experience is incredibly biased because all I've ever known is the company-owned model. And so the franchise model is genius and it really works and there's a power to it and you can become really strong

as a franchise and franchised business. It's really worked well for us. You know, we wrote, you know, whenever you form a company and whenever you form a joint venture, you kind of have all these rules and, you know, governance and how to make decisions and bro, we've never even referred to it once over the past 12 years.

So having nothing but building a profitable business has been fantastic for me as a chief exec because I knew that my shareholders were completely aligned. And we would never have made the decisions that we did, particularly from a property perspective, without being a joint venture. As a franchisee, you wouldn't have paid the premium to buy a 10,000 square foot property on the Champs-Élysées in between the Louis Vuitton corporate headquarter and the Abercrombie & Fitch global flagship store. And there's five guys. It's amazing. It's probably the most high profile visible five guys, apart from the one that's in the Dubai mall. So that property strategy was definitely influenced

by the structure of the deal, taking those high investment property decisions to reposition the brand as premium as we could get it. And it's still running like a family business at its core. It's still making those very value-focused decisions as opposed to making decisions for the stock market. The quarterly earnings report is not a pressure for me at all. The family meets every Tuesday and talks about the future of the business. I meet with Charles on a monthly basis to review the property and the pricing and the positioning of the brand. And those conversations would be different with a different structure, for sure. Because one of the things you said is, I don't have a time horizon, which means

you're not trying to build a business for three years and then jump ship and get out. So you said, I don't have a time horizon, which allows you to build a really great business. For the long term, yeah. And that's what I'm kind of getting at, because there'll be business owners listening to this that are maybe thinking, oh, I'll build for two years, then I'll sell it, or I'll build for three years and I'll sell it. But what you alluded to there is that you'll create a much better business if you remove that time horizon. It has been for us. And obviously, I've been involved in private equity investments. I mean, there certainly is a place for that. And I'm not saying you can't be successful

in those environments. It's really worked for us to be able to focus on, you know, an indefinite time horizon and doing the right thing today. I mean, ultimately private equity wants you to do the right thing today. And whether it plays out next month, next week, next quarter,

I think sometimes the interpretation of the urgency of the investment window can be misinterpreted to make urgent decisions rather than the right decisions. And I think it's up to this, to some degree, it's up to the chief exec to say, wait a minute, you're all focused on the wrong thing just right now. We could do this, which is going to make more quarterly earnings next quarter, and I'll make my budget. But the right decision is to invest in the medium term, long term, and here's why. So I think there is a lot of pressure. But to some degree, it's that position of chief exec where you need to say, wait a minute, that's the wrong business decision. And we can build a better business, be more successful by thinking

not about next quarter. What's the biggest threat to five guys? Biggest threat to five guys. I think losing focus on the basics of burgers and fries, thinking that we're something other than being burgers and fries. You know, that laser focused on making the best burger you could for your mom. I mean, that has got to be at the center of, you know, of who we are and what we're about. Treating each other like family and realizing that it's the human beings who are in the store. Fundamentally, that to me was the biggest inversion from banking. Banking was, it felt like to me, a very prima donna-ish business where very individual accomplishment and you could get, ultimately get paid by moving from one shop to another and taking credit for work you might not have been 100% responsible for. And this business,

it's all about reflecting any glory that comes to the business to the people who are actually making the burgers and fries, taking care of the business. And to me, whenever we, if we were to ever lose focus on burgers and fries, that would be the end of the business. On a personal level then, what makes you happy outside of the professional stuff, outside of Five Guys, what are the ingredients that make you happy? It's the connection stuff. The painful, gritty, vulnerable connection stuff.

Painful. Yeah, you know, I mean, like I tell my kids now, I hope that I'm the guy that you call when something's gone wrong. You know, it's great to get the calls that you got good grades and that you got the job you wanted and things are going well. You got a promotion. That's wonderful. But I want to be the call when something goes wrong,

when someone breaks up with you and your job doesn't go the way you want it to go. To me, that connectivity at the vulnerable places is the currency that is most precious to me. It's much of the reason why we started this podcast, to be honest, because, you know, sometimes being CEO,

much of it is about, well, I used to think it was about being seen as being perfect and strong and like you never had any personal issues yourself i think that's probably what i what i had learned about being a ceo and a leader it was always you know you've got to be um uh rock solid but um the reason why this podcast was called the diary of a ceo is because ceos are humans too successful people are humans too. And it turns out they have all the same bullshit and problems and pain and personal stuff that everyone else has in their lives. And you've

talked about much of that today. If you're, if you're, if you're, I know this is a question I've asked a few of my guests recently, just, I really enjoy asking the question, but it's, there's somewhat of a pun in it, I guess, in this case. If your, if your happiness is a recipe consisting of a series of ingredients and different quantities, like, you know, the five guys fries, just being three ingredients, what would be, what are those ingredients? And is there anything missing? Well, I think vulnerability is the, you know, probably the biggest new ingredient that I've had to mix into my life. Had to.

Yeah. I mean, I think being separated from my kids forced me to relook at everything. And I think also realizing that I have massive blind sides that I don't see and that I have convictions about the way I think and my intentions. But actually there's a huge sea of unconscious motivations that I'm unaware of and purposefully so. We build our mental defense constructs to deny the unconscious motivations, but that actually drive us. And that's what my partners helped me to see, that there's so much that,

I think I'm doing something because I'm trying to be generous. And actually it's not, it's because I'm working out some anger. And I don't want to admit that. I want to be the good guy, right? And being able to see that shadow side of yourself and to acknowledge that and to even embrace that and to say, it's okay, that's part of me. And that's really, that's been the hardest bit for me in the past couple of years, but I think probably the most valuable. What did you find in the past couple of years, but I think probably the most valuable. What did you find in the shadows? Oh, gosh, all the stuff you don't want to see about yourself, that you're selfish, that you're, that you, I think, you know, I grew up thinking that I couldn't express negative emotions. You know, I couldn't be angry. I couldn't, you know, and, but that goes, I mean,

of course you get angry. All human beings do, but, and, but that goes, I mean, of course you get angry. All human beings do. And that goes somewhere. And if you stuff it somewhere, it comes out in the worst ways that people that you love and care about in ways that you're probably, that I'm not even aware of.

So feeling that it's okay to be angry is probably, you know, the hardest thing for me. I'm just starting to work on that. I don't pretend to be good at it. But being able to, if I were to tell little John growing up something, it would be, it's okay to have all of the emotions that you have. And there's room of the emotions that you, you know, that you have,

and there's room in the world for all, for you to express them and to, to feel them and to own them and to, you know, to, to be part of you. It's okay. And, you know, even looking at my kids now trying to say, you know, actually some negative tension in our relationship is really valuable. You to be able to see that it's okay for you to be angry at me, me to be angry at you and to work those out and that it's going to be okay. And that we're going to be, we're going to be connected even with that. That's really powerful because they need to be able to take that into their adult relationships. And, you know,

else they'll, you know, they'll struggle, they'll struggle those places too. And it will become that intergenerational negative baggage that gets passed on. So I'm trying to try to do something different in that regard. That conversation with younger John about it's okay to be, have a full range of emotions and to be angry.

Because if you don't. You'll hurt the people you care about in ways that you don't intend, in ways that you don't understand. And they, and they may not understand. I mean, you know, I'm lucky in my partner that, you know, that she's quite, um, attuned. She has a, she's just finishing her master's in, uh, psychotherapy. And so, you know, being able to say, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm getting this from you, even though you don't intend it. Um, you know, let's deal with it. Um, that's a, that's a gift.

What you're talking about there as well as this process of like becoming more self-aware about yourself, because you're completely right. I mean, a lot of the stuff I've been reading recently about psychology talks about how we actually have, exactly as you said, have this default to just reinforcing ourselves, reinforcing the way we think and believe and searching for evidence that confirms it and confirms the identity we want to have of ourselves. But to become self-aware is a very difficult challenge, requires a huge amount of humility, feedback, you know, unlearning, learning. What has been the practical ways that you've gone on that journey to become more self-aware? Is it therapy? Is it just the feedback from your partner? What is... Yeah, well, I mean, I think first go through something really horribly painful where you have to reconsider everything and who you are and to be willing to put those on the table and say, you know, I thought I was being a great partner. I wasn't, you know, and being able to redefine the givens of who you think you are, that's really painful. And you come up with these ways of thinking about yourself for a reason.

And they're typically defense mechanisms from a very young age. So these are not easy things to give up. But to me, it was, I had to do it or I would lose connection with everyone that I cared about. And to me, it was, it's, you know, connection is worth it. And my, I can remember my grandmother, who was one of the first ones who taught me to love food. I had a very strange relationship, have a very strange relationship with food in that regard. But she, you know, she was, and late in her life, she was an amazing cook. And I could see the love, felt the love she had for me and the food that she prepared. And late in life, she was in a retirement home and some health inspector deemed some of the food had been passed like it's expiry date.

She came to me and she said, they were trying to service food that was unfit for human consumption. And we were like, oh, that's terrible. We'll fix that. But I always worried that I somehow, particularly in a romantic partner setting, was unfit for human consumption. And maybe in my weird, isolated, countercultural upbringing, there were skill sets that worked in being a business leader. But maybe those very things disqualified me from being successful in a romantic relationship. And so overcoming that sense of being unfit for human consumption in a romantic setting is,

you know, that's hard. And was that causing some form of self-sabotage in the romantic context? Inevitably, inevitably. So in being able to go back and accept the negative emotions, you know, it's not up to anybody else to express my anger for me. That's up to me, should be up to me and I should be able to spontaneously experience that in real time and express that in appropriate levels

that's my to-do list Have you been too much of a nice guy? Maybe sometimes but yeah, therapy is great I highly recommend it you know you cannot over invest in your mental health and that that comes from you know someone who grew up with a psychiatrist for a dad um and maybe maybe like you know the cobblers kids don't have shoes um you know i think uh you know now i'm i'm best heavily in my mental health there's there's an

unlimited budget for for that there's a lot of what you were saying resonates with me very, very terrifyingly. And the parts that really I was most intrigued by is I sometimes think in my romantic relationship that I am maybe negligent and I justify it to myself as because I'm working so hard and I justify it to myself as because I'm, you know, working so hard and I'm trying to provide so much and I'm, you know,

and I think sometimes I might think to myself, well, they just don't understand. I'm doing all of this hard work and they should respect, not respect me, they should be more appreciative of all this hard work I'm doing. And it's such a, I know it's such a selfish way to look at a relationship work I'm doing. And it's such a, I know it's such a selfish way to look at a relationship because I'm serving myself

and then justifying my almost neglecting someone by saying, well, I'm basically serving myself. It does actually, and that's when you were speaking, I was a bit scared that that's me in some ways.

Yeah, well, you remember the film Forrest Gump where he's talking to his girlfriend, Janie, or the girl he loves and he says, I'm not a his girlfriend, Janie, or the girl he loves, and he says, you know, I'm not a smart man, Janie, but I do know what love is. And I feel like I'm the foil for that, where I might in some ways be a smart guy, but I'm not at all convinced that I have any grasp, firm grasp of what love is. And, you know, what does love, what does like authentic,

real love look like? And it's probably not what I try to give my partner sometimes. You know, what does love, what does like authentic, real love look like? And it's probably not what I try to give my partner sometimes. You know, I mean, you know, actually understanding what she wants. You know, I mean, sometimes I'm giving, you know, some imaginary, you know, construct what I think they want. And then saying, well, you know, you should have that rather than really paying attention and going, you know, what is it that makes you understand and feel loved and known and appreciated and valued? And that's what I want to do. Did you not see that growing up at all?

Or were you just not taught it? You know what I mean? Because sometimes you can see it but not know what's actually going on behind the scenes. So you can see, oh, they look happy, but not know. Yeah, no, I mean, I think when I look back on it, there were people who I felt connection with and that I felt some warmth in their presence.

And I didn't understand that. I didn't go, that's love. I mean, that really is them seeing me and reaching out to me and connecting with me. But, you know, looking, maybe it's only looking back that you can kind of see those things accurately and meaningfully. When you look forward then, what are the big goals for you? And, you know, I'm not someone that buys into making, you know, vision boards and having

a five-year plan and all that nonsense. Because I think there's a certain agility required to be successful personally and professionally. And putting your flag too far in the future is probably not a great idea in that situation. But when you think about your life in 10 years' time, what will the foundations of that life look like for it to be a really great one? Yeah. Well, um, I think, you know, from a business perspective, uh, I, I love what I, what I get to do. I mean, I, it, it feels like it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, feel like work, um, now. Um, I mean, it feels like a gift to be able to be a part of this business, a part of this, you know, a family who believes in the integrity of their product.

There's no pressure to compromise in any way this thing that, you know, that we're doing. And, you know, that feels fantastic. So, you know, I think that the team that we've built is capable of more. I don't know what that is, but I'm excited to see what that could be. Um, and, um, and personally, you know, I think, um, I've got a lot of growth to do. I think I've just kind of scratched the surface of the, all the, the ways that I cover up the motivation, the true motivations that I have. Um, so I want to, I want to, I want to go after that with conviction and competitiveness. You know, I'm a very competitive guy. I love, you know, whatever it is that I do, I kind of go after it.

So, yeah, a lot to read, a lot to, but, you know, I think sometimes that urgency doesn't work in mental health. And that kind of, you can't rush to self-awareness. Sometimes it's kind of like the bird that kind of lands on your hand when you're being patient. So I think I've got to expand my repertoire of intensity in that regard. One step at a time. And vulnerability, being vulnerable, I think. One step at a time. And vulnerability, being vulnerable, I think is one step at a time. And it's kind of like opening the door a little bit at a time. It has been for me anyway, I think, because I was so scared to be vulnerable, I think for much of my life that I tried the experiment of being vulnerable, looked around,

and it seemed to be okay. It seemed to help me, it seemed to help others. I opened the door a little bit further. It helped me, it helped helped others and so over the last couple of years this is part of the reason we do this podcast is i've been able to be more vulnerable and it really is such a selfish thing because it's the most unbelievable way to live to just be able to sit here and talk about masturbation my sex life mental health i was i got anxiety about this it's such a free way to live the science supports that you think about those that live most most in tune with who they actually are seem to be the happiest but when i think about the real adverse consequences you see sometimes in certain communities who are not being allowed to live as they are the suicide rate spike and everything so

getting closer to your true vulnerable self, I think is such a gift. And then the way it resonates, you'll see as a leader, I'm sure you saw in the pandemic, you know, vulnerable leaders in the pandemic, I think one, vulnerable leaders when it comes to letting people go always win.

So- No, when I was preparing for this conversation with you, Stephen, I went back and looked at some of the presentations I'd done to my business. And one of the presentations that I did was called Have You Known Hard Times? And I went through and talked about my hard times

and being able to, and to me, that was a real turning point as well, saying, you know, it's okay. It's not only okay. It's, it's, it's really important for, to, to acknowledge that we've all had really hard times that like break you apart as a human being and, you know, make you, make you question everything. Um, and that's okay here. Um, and that was, uh, um, and, and, and then the feedback that I got to say that, that was, that, that was, you know, that was a and then the feedback that I got to say that that was you know that was a positive thing

that was amazingly yeah fulfilling we do have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guests ask the next guest I mean you've done your preparations I'm sure you know and I don't read it until I open the book

so the question is, who is the person you'd most like to say sorry to, but haven't. Wow. I've got a pretty long list. I would say, I'd say my ex-wife for being so blind to the things that I brought to the relationship that must have upset her for years and insisted

that, you know, that they weren't, um, things that, you know, I had said or done. And really, I mean, I guess, I guess that would apply to anybody who I've had a romantic relationship with that, you know, that I didn't, um, I didn't bring my true authentic self that even even though i thought i was um and i thought i was living a purposeful you know life um but but didn't um but then i'd also i guess i'd say um um you know i i think there's a a dynamic with my parents that, that probably, um, falls into that category of making amends. Um, and, you know, as a, um, both as the recipient and the perpetrator of, you know, of some trauma, um, in that regard. Um, and then I, I guess I'd, I'd have to say, uh, to Hayden and Lucy, my kids, for not being there in the moments when they needed me. And I can blame the UK court system as much as I want,

but the fact is that there were moments where they woke up and needed both their parents and I wasn't there. And I'm deeply sorry for that. And, yeah, you know, and there, and there are probably, there are probably lots of others in that list. But that's a, that's a short summary. Thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your wisdom as it relates to business and the story of Five Guys, which is just is just tremendously inspiring and i it's always such an honor to get to speak to ceos and operators that have been part of disruption and really underpinning and sort of really unpicking how they've gone

about that that's so immensely valuable to me and i've taken so much away from from that in terms of the simplicity in terms of detail in terms of putting the customer first in terms of the importance of talent and this negative hiring concept which I'm going to adopt in all of my companies but even more importantly for me is is the the vulnerability that you've shown and the the human behind all of that because that's the thing that ultimately people can resonate with the most because no matter where we reach in the in our careers no matter how how high we climb it seems so clearly obvious that when none of us are immune from the consequences of just being a human being,

and we can all relate to that regardless of where we are in the world. So thank you so much. It's been such an inspiring conversation and hopefully we'll do it again sometime. Absolutely. Pleasure. Thanks for the time together.