The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Chris Kamara: The Untold Heartbreaking Story Of A Football Legend

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Chris Kamara is a former professional footballer and pundit who lit up our screens as part of Sky Sports punditry team for 25 years before he left Sky this year. He now has a podcast, Kammy and Ben’s Proper Football podcast. But there’s more to Chris than meets the eye. Behind the cheery facade is someone who’s had to overcome an incredibly hard start in life, from being one of the few black kids in his area to his family at times having to resort to beg for food. After a diagnosis with Asphyxia, he is one of the most high-profile people with the disease. Chris has always managed to look for the positives in life no matter what it throws at him. A self-described ‘people person’, despite going through experiences most of us can only imagine he’s always found his glass half full. And if he can, any of us can. Follow Chris: Twitter - https://bit.ly/3eGUuT3 Instagram - https://bit.ly/3xiaTUl Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue every day i wake up the first thing I think, am I going to be able to talk today? There's been a red card, but for who, Chris Kamara? I don't know, Geoff, has there? One of Britain's best-loved football pundits. It's been a cracker, Geoff! You're a beauty! Unbelievable, Geoff, what a cracking game! As a young black kid

Thinking that one day I'll play for Middlesbrough And for Leeds Ambition and dream Achieved The story of your mother I found really difficult to read It was difficult in those days

Men were physical Towards women I made the mistake of telling my dad on his deathbed that it was wrong i should have kept it to myself why For someone that has never experienced apraxia, what does it feel like for you in your head? I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting. You feel a fraud?

Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. I was going to quit everything. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Chris, what do I need to know about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today? Well, I don't know, really.

My childhood is slightly clouded. So I wouldn't change anything because you can't change the course of history but life was difficult growing up very difficult so yeah I wouldn't change anything to be honest when you say clouded? Well, good days, bad days. We had terrible racism at the time. When I was growing up, I was born in 57. So in the 60s, it wasn't good. We were the only black family on our estate. So anything happened, the police would come knocking on our door,

take our dad away, and he'd have to get cleared and come home. And the whole process would start again. It's that black family there who were causing all the problems. And occasionally, not all the time, my dad liked to bet. So he would, on a Thursday, when he got paid, they got paid in cash, then brown envelopes, would occasionally go to the bookies,

and so we'd end up, you know, struggling struggling for food so it's clouded in those ways um i'm looking through those clouds now but you know uh thinking it didn't do me any harm but it happened you know your mother and your father's relationship uh mom was the most loyal wife you could ever have absolutely even if uh and dad and arguments or fights or whatever she would vehemently stick up for him you know when anybody called him you know the n-word was vibrant back in those days and you know i hear these stories now that it's impossible to understand uh racism if you're not black it's not true it's totally not true my mom got called an end lover uh throughout you know the 60s when i was aware of it uh and she came through it so she knew exactly what racing was about

your father was from sierra leone yeah and your mother was from Middlesbrough Middlesbrough yeah people don't always think about that they don't think about how the in in that context because my mother's from Nigeria and my dad's from Coventry so I'm you know and what my dad went through as well because his wife was black um is often not spoken about but often the the partner carries the weight and the the um the insults all the same i i was reading through your story about how your mother would also on thursday she would walk up to 10 miles to go and get your dad's pay packet yeah through fear that he might spend it yeah she had to so it became a ritual in the end she would do it all the time in the end

when we were older as kids she didn't have to carry us to the uh workplace which was 10 miles away, around Journey. And so she, they ended up, she would walk to meet dad and they would go off into town together, you know, and that became the norm. Did your dad ever show the impact or the consequences of the way he was being treated like an outsider in a country where people were telling him he didn't belong? To us, as kids.

Did you ever see the impact of him emotionally? Did it manifest itself in drinking? Was there ever a sign that it was impacting him? He told us often enough he'd been involved in fights uh back then fist fights you know that was the norm you know he had to stand up and be counted but he was always the one arrested in those fighting situation um but he he had this thing and he drove it into me and my brother, don't ever react. I might be reacting, but whatever you do, don't react.

Take it on the chin and ride through it. You'll get through it that way it's been harder for me and I'm doing this for you so you'll benefit and money the other thing that I read

that I found really difficult to read was the story of your mother when your dad's gambling problems were very difficult your mother would and you didn't have money your mother would go around to other houses in the street and knock on the doors and ask for bread or anything or money or that's how it had to be you know if you've got Tuesday and Wednesday to come on a Monday and you haven't got food and milk and that until Dad gets paid on Thursday,

she'd go and borrow money or milk or bread from the neighbours. She got turned away more often than not, but she persevered. She had to look after her kids how did you feel amongst that time so what age are you at this point five six seven eight um well yeah it wasn't all the time you know it was occasional so, I would say from eight-year-old, I became aware of it more. I know it's eight because I had to light a coal fire at eight years of age. Can you imagine, you know, I can imagine asking my boys to get wood and paper and matches and then light the paper and then

once the wood gets going put the coal on top at eight years age yeah yeah spooky yeah you were asked to do that to heat the home yeah yeah they we didn't have central heating you had a fire coal fire that was all yeah you had the oven in the back of the house in the kitchen so you'd put a gas on to heat the kitchen when it was really cold but the main source of heat and the hot water was the fire. Was there a lot of love in your home? Yeah, I would say, intimately, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, when I look back now, I wouldn't change anything,

even though there are aspects that I'd like to change. Aspects? One or two things. The thing I don't want to do is destroy the person who my dad is for my grandkids. But it was difficult in those days, you know. Men were physical towards women. So, yeah, yeah, difficult, yeah. I sat here not so long ago with Alex Scott,

the football presenter, broadcaster. Yeah, I work with Alex at Sky. Her book comes out in 10 days' time. In the book, I was reading about how she'd never spoken about it before publicly, but she would come home and watch her father beating up her mother constantly. And the mark that left on her as a young child

having to witness that kind of violence in the home. And it's not really talked about enough. And it's funny, the reason why I bring that up is because she's also grappling with the same fear of tarnishing her father's life. Yeah. Yeah. But it was done. I presume my dad grew up with it

and so he thought it was okay for him to do it. But like I say, you know, my kids will probably listen to this and, you know, I don't want to say too much on it is there a mixture of emotions around it because that's what i observed in alex as well was there's this like you look at someone in your life whether it's a parent or someone you love and you say that behavior was wrong but at the same time i i love you you're still my father and it's you know that that balancing act

of like should I hate this person should you know yeah I made the mistake of telling my dad

on my death on his deathbed that it was wrong and he he

sort of like wouldn't accept that he'd done what he'd done so why does that make you emotional well I should have kept it to myself why I should have kept it to myself.

Why? Why wait until he's nearly dead to say something? I'm a grown man in this time. Your mother? Mm-hmm. Yes. That's a smile on your face. Yeah, of course.

What role has she played in making you the man you are today? She was everything you could want in a mum. She would do anything for me. She did. My dad never saw my school report from the age of five until I left school at 16. She protected me that way. So, yeah, but not only that, you know, mums are great and she looked after the family. Yeah, but not only that, you know, my mum's a great,

and she looked after the family as good as she possibly could. And, you know, she was my world. And at that age, what were your dreams? If I'd asked you the question, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, footballer. Yeah. No danger. Playing for Middlesbrough initially. And then when I saw Leeds on,

back to the day, around there, Mace House, Borough or Leeds, you know. Ambition to play for Borough. Dream to play for Leeds. So, footballer. nothing else, tunnel vision yeah Why football? What was it doing for you? Oh, everything

yeah, I used to play on the field near our house with, again, strong men from the age of 12 and I wasn't bad, you know with, again, strong men from the age of 12. And I wasn't bad, you know. And they would try to kick lumps out of this little kid who was embarrassing them.

So, yeah, it stood me in good stead. When I played against men at 16, I could look after myself. Eventually, you end up going and doing a couple of months in the army. How did that happen? Navy, actually. The Navy, sorry. Yeah. No, Dave Richardson was our coach, middle boys,

came around my house and said to my dad, there's a chance, not guaranteed, that Chris will be taken on as an apprentice at Middlesbrough. And he went, no, no, he's not going. If he stays in Middlesbrough, he'll become, he'll be in trouble with police, he'll end up rinking and stuff like that. He's not staying in Middlesbrough, he's going in the Navy. He made my brother join the Army and he made me join the Navy, literally. Frog marched me down to the recruitment office and signed on the dotted line. Can you imagine, you know, well, I can't imagine doing that to my kids, you know.

And in a way, I think that worked against me with my kids because I never pressurised my kids to do anything at all you know let them do whatever they wanted whereas I probably could have been a you know a little bit more in terms of football or you know but I want whatever they wanted to do was my wish and I think that came from my dad When he marched you down there

and you had a love for football at that time he marched you down there and he wanted you to join the Navy how did you feel? Not good I have to say not good um it was one of those things i left middlesbrough boys were in a semi-final um the week before i was going in the navy so i knew I had this final coming up when I signed, semi-final coming up when I signed for the Navy. So I was thinking hopefully the semi-final and final of the middle boys will be over.

But I played the semi-final and then I didn't get in touch with Dave Richardson to tell him I wouldn't be there for the final because I was off to a tall point in Devon well Colmo it's across the water from Plymouth um that's where I'm from Plymouth yeah Plymouth that's where I'm from, Plymouth yeah, Plymouth, yeah, so you know it's Coal Mall, and not Devon but it's a stone's throw and that's where I got my lucky break

your lucky break? yeah, when the Navy football team were training there, so I went down one day and I asked the coach if I could train with him and the team. And he went, no. Three reasons. One, you're on trial.

So what it did, you were on a trial so yeah what it did you were on a trial situation whereas uh you got to six weeks whether you like the navy or they like you and if not you could leave so he said come back in six weeks uh if you want and the other thing he said, come back in six weeks if you want. And the other thing, he said, number two, he said, is you're black and these lot will kick lumps out of you, so to speak. And the third thing is you're too skinny. You're not going to be strong enough to play in the Navy football team. So I said, OK. Anyway, got to six weeks, was fine, was OK.

And then there's a six-month period then where you can decide if you want to stay in the Navy or not. So I went back to see him, and he kept saying no, no, no. And then one day I was running around the track while the Navy football team, and he said, look, we're two players short. I'll play on one side, you play on the other. Just stay out on the wing, and you'll be fine. So I said okay, anyway I scored two goals from the wing and got drafted straight into the team straight We played Portsmouth Reserves and Navy side.

I scored another two goals against them. They asked how old I was and they bought me out for the magnificent sum of £200. And my dad, I phoned my dad and I told him what was happening and he wasn't happy so I spoke to the Navy and said, look, would you do me a favour, would you give me a letter saying if it don't work out as a footballer i can go back in the navy and they said yeah fine so i got that letter uh sent it to dad and it sort of like made him you know a bit more settled and then it happens your your career at portsmouth a lot of people don't um a lot of people will never appreciate especially in this the modern era even me even me as a guy that has a black

black mother and a white father the what racism was like back in the 50s and 60s you know the first time i experienced racism was maybe 1998. No, it would have been later. It would have been about 2000, roughly, about when I was maybe eight or nine or 10. But when I was reading through what you experienced in that time, almost constantly. Yeah. I just, it makes,

it almost makes my experience feel like it was nothing. And I mean that, like, I remember like once or twice or three times, you know, over the course of my whole childhood, people being overtly racist. But when was the first time someone was racist to you? Your first memory. I know exactly when it was.

I'll never forget it. I was eight years old. Once again, that was the time where I could light the fire and go to the shops to get cigarettes. So you went with a note for the shopkeeper. So it was 10 woodbines for my mum and 20 capstan full strength for my dad. So I went to the shop, gave the note to the shopkeeper,

and he's getting it, and this woman came in the shop. Anyway, she asked for a pint of milk or a loaf of bread. I'm not sure of those details. And he said, I'm serving this young man here. She said, Eastlock should go back to where they came from. And I thought, I live five doors away from you, you know. I'm not, you know, from somewhere else. And he said, no, look, he stood his ground, the shopkeeper, and served me.

And I went out with ringing in our ears. Oh, them blacks and so-and-so's shouldn't be here. It says it all that you can remember that day with such detail. I can, yeah. That's something I don't think people realise, is the first time someone called me the N-word at school, I remember everything about that day. I can't remember many other days,

but for some reason it's a very traumatic experience and the first sort of signs that you're different and welcome. And that would go on to continue throughout your childhood, your football career. I read about the story when you were playing against millwall i believe it was and someone had thrown a banana on the pitch at you yeah no wall was uh horrific but not just for me as a black person it was for any footballer that went there you know basically but even harder for me I can always remember uh once again if you ask me about my career and there's you know lots I forget but the first time I took a throw in there the ball went out and they kept the wall initially. They wouldn't give me it.

And then eventually it got thrown onto the pitch and the fans are virtually there and you're taking a throwing from there. So I'm sort of like taking this throwing and all of a sudden spit is on the back of my head the back of my i never took a throwing ever there again when i was taking yeah that lesson was truly learned and the the other story which i found it just sounded like something from a thousand years ago was when you went to the pub after a game with your team and the

pub owner made a racist comment to you yeah that was in Weatherby I'd played for Portsmouth at Sunderland in 1976 I think.

Sunderland needed to win to get promotion to what is the Premier League now, the old first division. We needed a win to stay up in the old second division. What is the championship now? Anyway, Sunderland won that day. Always remember that game for two reasons, not just the Weatherby incident. I drank champagne for the first time. Sunderland sent a case of champagne into the dressing room

because they got promoted that day so we get on the coach every virtually

every team that played Sunderland on Newcastle would stop at Weatherby for

fish and chip so so we stop so we all part in the pub uh most of the players and everything and the barman says we don't serve his kind in here and uh the lads were all going and i went no no no it's fine to be be honest, I was underage anyway. I was 17. But that didn't matter back then.

I'd been going in the pubs since I was 14, you know. So I went, no, no, it's fine. Anyway, Mickey Mellows, one of my teammates, said, I'll bring you a pint out. But that was the first time that my teammates realised do you get that often and stuff like that

and I said yeah occasionally but part of life you know you get on with it it's one thing to shrug it off and I feel like in that situation there's a time and place you know to um to address some of these things or to confront them your father had taught you to kind

of not react as you say but as you look back on that period of your life how did that racial abuse shape and change you as a man uh it made you wary of other people obviously you know not happy but i wouldn't say oh god it's traumatized me or something like that and then the black lives come out and people start telling their stories of racism and the way they've been treated, you think, oh, why can't I tell my story now? And I have done. Has that helped you, telling your story, do you think? Yeah, to be honest, I wouldn't say it's helped me or not helped me.

I think since I've had this, well, I've got two conditions, an underactive thyroid and apraxia. The underactive thyroid plays with your emotions. So I get a lot more emotional now, whereas stuff I wouldn't even bat an eyelid in the past because of this little butterfly uh thyroid in my neck it now makes me more emotional when did you discover Well, it's funny, you know. It's really funny. I did, going through lockdown initially, the first lockdown in March,

when the weather was great and everyone, you know, quite, you know, I think they were gutted about the lockdown, but the fact you were at home and the sun was shining, things were slightly different. I did loads and loads of shows from home, you know, Celeb Juice and Steph's Back Lunch, ITV, Lorraine and stuff like that, Sky Sports from the, you know, barn at home, you know. So that was fine. So all of a sudden I began to not feel well, too well,

but I always shrugged it off. I'd take, you know, tablets and be fine the next day and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't going away. And I thought, what's going on? But I ignored it, ignored it, which is the worst thing you can possibly do. So I would get away with it at home by hardly not being the person I was, not talking as much. When I'm broadcasting for Sky, I'm trying to keep minimalistic

because some of the words are coming out slurred and stuff like that. So eventually I've got to go and see someone because I literally went a whole year, if not 20 months, before I actually got diagnosed with underactive thyroid. So it was all my prayers answered at once uh you know uh you've got an underactive thyroid take levothyroxine once you find your level of levothyroxine you'll be fine great doctor's great, sorting out. So eventually you take 25 grams or whatever it is of levothyroxine. Eventually when you find your level, you're fine. So I get to 175 and my thyroid is stabilised.

But my voice condition is still exactly the same. So what's going on? So my doctor then says, go for a brain scan. So I go for an MRI scan. Anyway, go and see a brain specialist. He looks at the x-rays, the MRI scan. Fine, not a problem. Nothing wrong with your brain.

It's got to be something else that's going on. So I go back to my GP and tell him what's going on. He's got the report from the brain scan. So he says he won't give up, my GP. He says it's not obviously your thyroid there's something else going on would you go and see this dr lily in leeds he's a've only said hello to him and before I can even chat to him he says you've got apraxia of speech right how do you know I can tell straight away the difficulty between the brain and your mouth being able to speak you know it was probably slower than

it is now at that time so he said look you know I want you to go and have a DAT scan which is which rules out Parkinson's or stroke and all that sort of stuff. I did, went back to see him with the result, for the results, I should say, and he went, the good news is you haven't got Parkinson's or anything like that. The bad news is, you know, we can't find anything else wrong with you. So, you know, the apraxia, you know, will probably get worse. And, you know, that went on for quite a while. I went to see a therapist and he kept saying to me, look, you need to tell people, you know. You can't continue on TV and people are saying,

is he drunk and what's the matter with him? Has he had a stroke? You need to come out and say something. I said, I can't, I can't. I'd rather quit than actually say something. Anyway, eventually I spoke to my mate Ben Shepard, told him what was going on. So he said, look, come on, GMB, we'll chat about it

and let the world know what's going on. How were things for your family during this period? My boys had been saying to my wife there's something wrong with Dad for a while. And she sort of, like, would broach it with me, but I'd be quite snappy and, you know, which I'm not anyway, you know, and say, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, don't worry about it, I'm fine. And I kept thinking, like I said, once I got the thyroid problem,

the level of thyroid will take it away. And then it's still with me. And, yeah, it's harder for people close to you i think you know because my two boys saying that you're okay oh yeah i'm fine i've just had a bad day you know don't worry i'll be fine uh but they know you know you can't pull me all over their eyes for too long. For someone that has never experienced what it's like to have apraxia, what does it feel like for you in your head? It feels like someone is taking over my voice box. So the voice that used to come out would come out at 300 mile an hour.

You know, you've seen me on the results and Soccer Saturday, you know, mouth to mouth talking, not even waiting for a breath, just keep going and going. Now when I hear myself or see myself on TV, it's someone else. It's strange, it's really strange. Some days, you know, the message from the brain to the mouth is really slow. It makes it difficult. Or some days the words come out different

than what you're trying to say, and that's even weirder, and so that's been hard to accept, and still hard to accept, I have to say, you know, I was going to quit everything, you know, literally every single bit of TV at the end of last season. Leave Sky, quit BBC, quit ITV, quit Channel 4 and 5 and all those companies. BBC, I think it was the right time to leave Sky. I'd had a great innings, but BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 said, no, no, you're cammy, it doesn't matter. I said, well, it's the quality of the programme.

No, it doesn't matter. You're fine, we want you to do this. And would you believe I'm now doubly busy than what I was before? That period of uncertainty, you get the diagnosis, the specialist says to you, it's only going to get worse. Your career is at that point in speaking. It's in presenting, broadcasting. Yeah.

What was that period of uncertainty like on your mental health? It was an acceptance, really. Because what I said to my wife is, if I wasn't a broadcaster, it wouldn't matter, would it? And so she said, yeah. So I said, you know, now's the time. I've had a great time.

I spoke to my agent, Simon Dent. I said, look, I'm getting out of all this. And he said, yeah, you can. Yeah, don't worry. I'll leave it up to you. And, yeah, I thought, that's it. Quit. I've done my time.

And I'd like to thank all the people that have been persistent and said, look, a 25% cami is, you know, still better than some people, you know. And Sky, saw you on that show forever. Yeah. Presenting and bringing, you you know insights and wisdom and laughs and um all of that to the show i also watched the tribute um that jeff jeff did when you left what was that like having to to speak to to jeff and the rest of the lads and tell them that you're departing and for the reason? Well, Jeff's a really close pal.

And he knew there'd been something going on for a while. He kept saying to me, are you all right? And I said, yeah, I'm fine, Jeff. Don't worry, I'm fine. And he said, well, you know, yeah, what's going on? So I said, oh, I just had a couple of bad days and stuff, but I'll be fine on Saturday. Then he'd send me a text saying, you know, I'm fine again.

I said, oh, I'll be all right next week or whatever. But, yeah, you can't pull the wool over people's eyes who know you real well. And it was great you know the tribute that sky gave me which like i said was the right time to leave there uh i cried when he cried on the show i've never seen him cry before it It was a really beautiful, powerful moment. Since then, in your own words, you've really thrown the kitchen sink,

I think is the quote, at the apraxia. And can you talk to me about what you've done since to mitigate the impact of the condition on you and your life and your career? Yeah, the day I went on GMB and spoke to Ben Shepard and Kate, I got a phone call immediately from a fella that I knew ish

a fella called Winford Dawes and he said I can cure you I know there's people out there that'll help to get you right so he said I want you to come and meet a professor Nicholson down at Sheffield University so I said okay so I met Winford and the professor anyway anyway, between them, they were saying, you need to kick-start your cerebellum,

which is in the back of the brain. What's happened is it's shut down, so we need to get the jump leads out, start it again, and get your brain going, get your speech going, and there are various ways to do that. and get your brain going, get your speech going. And there are various ways to do that. So I said, yeah, what are those? I'll do absolutely anything to try and get it right so uh he got um zing performance which is really uh exercises for stroke victims but it's helped my balance uh arc performance which is microcurrents going through my body i still i have a tag on my ankle now with those micro currents going through all the time

yeah all the time yeah uh for seven hours every day um and it's helped yeah it's helped you know I wouldn't say I'm more than 60% the old me, but, you know, I was 20%, you know, so I've gone up 40% for a hyperbaric tent, you know, with the oxygen. He recommended I do that, and I see a therapist who helps with the speech and help my anxiety working for Sky became very difficult you know before I even came out and said I've got it my heart would beat like mad before they came to me at Sky.

The anxiety was terrible because I was knowing I wasn't the old me. So I went to see him and he said, look, I can cure that. The other problem, the apraxia, is a biological condition, so I can cure that the other problem the apraxia is a biological condition so I can't help with that but we'll try you know and see if we can get you through things so getting rid of the anxiety helped me finish work or the work I had stacked up uk strongest man the games right tv uh all those shows cash in the attic i present um so they helped me do that um and uh all those um treatments you know i'm taking so many vitamins these days, and I've just been introduced by Winford to the best neurologist in America, and he said, because I have good days there's no reason why I can't be cured so I've sent off a load of

blood tests and everything to America and I'm just waiting on the results how how is life for you now you've been through a journey. Yeah. Strange. Where are you in that journey now? Strange. Strange in terms of I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting. I don't bring to the table what I used to. So that's hard. My life away from the screen couldn't be any better. You know, grandkids, you know, family.

It's, you know, it's perfect, unique, yeah. You feel a fraud? Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Because you... because you because you I feel I'm doing these programs and and they're not getting the best of me but they're tolerating me you know I I think what you what they told you about as you said 25% of you is better than pretty much everyone else

you know I've you brought so much joy to my life growing up made me love the game more made me understand the game more you've made it hilarious I mean you know that you're you're loved more than anyone i've ever seen on the screen so and you've earned that that's a skill that's something i couldn't do i wouldn't know how to do a slither of what you do so i don't think that um i suspect that fear is is not as logical as you think it is and you're a fraud i mean that as well like i could never do what you do i I couldn't do 10% of what you do. So, you know. It's like anything else. You take it for granted, your old self.

You do things, you know. That tribute that Sky gave me, that's reserved for someone who passes away, isn't it? You know, so I've had the tribute while I'm still alive that people don't get. When they go, you always look back and think, you read the obituaries and the comments and think, why didn't people say that? So I think maybe I should have bowed out then, taken the accolades and said, thank you. Am I tarnishing what I've got, what I had?

But I think my rebuttal to that, if I may, is that you're serving the world in a very important way now still. Even by having this conversation and being vulnerable and open, you are serving hundreds of thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people, in an entirely different way that are suffering with various conditions, whether it's, you know, as you've said, post-stroke victims or whether it's apraxia or other things

and they're struggling with the same self-doubt. It's funny, like our missions just change over our lives, right? Like, so your first missions was in football and then you became a manager, then you did broadcasting and now this chapter of your life is just a different chapter you're still you know a wondrous broadcaster but you're serving people in a completely other way probably maybe arguably even in a more important way see what i mean yeah yeah it's funny i did the itv games and a youtuber was called young philly i'd never met him before but he's on the first show and he sees me before we go broadcasting and he comes and he starts doing that he went you, you're a god. I went, what?

You know, I'm young Philly, pleased to meet you. Do you know what an icon you are for black people? I went, nah, don't be daft. He went, you're a trailblazer. You know, you did TV before diversity. You know, how did you get into tv when you you know on sky sports and there was no black people around and all that sort of stuff you're an icon and i went no i don't see myself as that and he went well you've inspiration. So it makes you feel good for a second.

That's worth it, right? Yeah. And that alone, that thought that you're inspiring people just by having this conversation and by sharing your story and being honest and not running into the shadows, as you could have very easily done, is going to help. And you probably never get to meet them like you got to meet young philly but that's got to be worth it right yeah yeah it was i didn't believe him but

he's got no reason to lie though do you know i mean this next uh this next chapter what what what do you want it to be full of my life has changed uh in terms of grandkids you know material things don't matter anymore um uh the love you are for you know your kids' kids is something else. So, you know, I'm one of those now. Even though I'm still working, my main priority is spending time with them. What advice would you give me? You know, I just turned 30 last week.

What advice would you give me i say it to everyone work hard and you'll succeed don't ever turn down work don't ever say on a job or this is hard i don't like it anymore i can't do this do it do it and do it to the best of your ability and see where it takes you you know tv is one of those jobs i think where if you work hard enough you'll succeed in football that's not the case you. I've grown up in football. Sometimes a lucky break is better than working hard. You've still got to work hard, but you need breaks. And of course you need breaks in TV, but if you work hard, I think you get them.

I started off at Sky and so people say how did you get into Sky in 1998 well initially I was a pundit for them I was lucky fortunate the first broadcast of the Football League was Sunderland versus Sheffield United at Sheffield, and they rang me. I was manager of the month with Bradford in August. We won four games and drew one, and they called me and said, would you come and be the pundit?

So I said, yeah, Sheffield down the road from me. And they said, no, you've got to come into Sky in West London. So I came all the way down. Marcus Buckland, the presenter, it was his first day and it was a doubleheader. Six hours of TV, obviously ads in between and all that sort of stuff, halftime and that, and Gerry Francis was doing the second game. So that's where fate took a hand.

I did the first game, S sunland won at sheffield and jerry francis got stuck on the m4 so i did the double header so from doing six hours of tv i became the go-to guy then for sky so a live game, are you available? Yeah, I'll come down and do it, and I did that. And then when I got the sack from Bradford, they asked, would I like a contract? And I said no, but I'd like to keep my face in the shop window, so I did one broadcast, and then Stoke came along, and I got that job. And then that job turned sour pretty quickly after three months.

And then I just fell straight into Sky Broadcasting. And so eventually, the 1999, the producer of Soccer Saturday said, would you like to come and join the team? So I said, yeah. So he went, would you like to do some features for us? So I would actually go and train with teams, Premier League teams. You cannot imagine in a million years that they let you train with the players these days. But I did that back in the day, 1999. So I'd go and train, join in the training with them, interview the managers, the players, shoot the...

And then I went and edited those pieces because I didn't want someone saying, oh, yeah, it's fine, but, you know, the hard work is done by the editor. So I would sit myself in a studio and sometimes it took six, seven hours for a four-minute piece to edit it down. But I thought, right, I don't want anyone saying he's there by fraud, hard work.

And if you do that and people see that it'll help not in all cases but in most cases that was the very start of what would go on to be a legendary career in the media um i when you look so you're giving me one reason there as to why you're successful which is just the hard work and saying yes but the media business is also it's much more complex than that in the sense that hard work as you say it's like you definitely need to do it but what was it about you do you think that set you apart as of as in the media industry as a broadcaster i don't know that i'm still baffled by that i went to ian condren's uh 40th anniversary with his wife he was ian was the producer of soccer saturday who gave me the job and uh i said why you know i'd seen you on doing other programmes,

Punditry, and thought you'd be great for our show. He said, you know, took a chance with you and it works. But 20 years. You must have a suspicion. No, no, not at all, you know. I was allowed to be just me so i didn't have to work at it like i had to work at editing those pieces together you know the training playing interviewing the managers all came natural yeah it was that hard work that I wanted to prove that I could do

um but no I was fortunate oh it was just me Anne when did you meet Anne uh we met uh when I was at Swindon. I got transferred from Portsmouth to Swindon, my first ever transfer, and in 1978. 1978. Yeah, 1978. And we actually played Portsmouth my first game

for Swindon was at home to Portsmouth and yeah I had to have a police escort to the game the club had been informed Yeah, I had to have a police escort to the game. The club had been informed by the intelligence that the National Front,

because Portsmouth had 200 National Front supporters. National Front is this racist organisation from a couple of decades ago. Yeah, so they'd got wind that they were going to do me in, you know. So, you know, when I played for Pompey, there was a small section of fans that booed you onto the pitch because of your colour, booed you off, you know. But, like I said, back in those days, I didn't care. booed you off you know but like I said back in those

days I didn't care not one jot you know and I didn't care when they said about this you know you're going to be not in and I said oh it's just a threat don't worry about it but the police intelligence said no we need

to pick you up and take you to the game and drop you back home. So I did. You scored. Went to the year after 10 minutes. And not like today where people don't celebrate. Of course, stupid me, you know, with Dad this death threat goes straight

because I scored in the end where the Pompey fans were and gave it all that. So, yeah, no. So the police escort wanted to take me back to my dicks, but I said, no, leave it now, it's fine. And one of my teammates, Kenny Stroud, his wife Linda, was with this girl called Anne, and I asked her out. throughout. You know, 40 years later, or 43 years later,

we're still together. What a journey it's been with Anne. A long journey, yeah. What does she mean to you? Everything, you know. You take wives for granted, or I did.

I can't speak for everyone else. But it's only when you have a problem like this, because, you know, I just live for today. I'm fine. No problems. Don know, no problems. Don't worry about me. It's when you have a problem, they have to, you know, look at your closest one

and see what they do for you and how they react to what you're going through, which, you know, is difficult. And then you feel sad about, you know, not sharing things before and keeping things away from. How did she react to all of this? She said she thought for a while. She didn't say anything.

She said she thought for a while that there was something not quite right, but she couldn't put her finger on it. And she's been my rock, you know, now, you know. I don't hardly, you know, now, you know. I don't hardly, you know, this is the longest I've spoken to anybody for a long time, you know. And you'll probably see when you edit this tape, sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's coming out okay. Now it's coming out okay and it feels fine, you know, and that's all to do with the mind.

Maybe I'm talking about a good thing now with her and so it's fine and it's free. So, yeah, she's, you know, she's taken the weight, heavy weight off my shoulders and, you know, allowed me to do what I do, to continue doing what I'm doing if I want to do it. But she does say from time to time, you're allowed to say no to these jobs

that Simon rings up and asks me to do. But I don't like to let anyone down. You know I think it's worth saying that I think this this has been a really really great conversation and I'm actually quite surprised to hear that of how much you struggled previously based on the conversation we've had today because I don't um had I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn here but had I not known about the um the condition this would have been a perfectly normal conversation on this on this podcast so it's really really interesting and enlightening to to learn more about it and uh i yeah i can't imagine as from a family's perspective as well going through that journey with their father where you're trying to find answers you find answers and then there's that whole sort of therapy process to get you back

to where you are and the mental health journey that takes us on which we've not really talked about in detail but there's the curing the the condition but then there's like living with the cost of the shift the tectonic shift in your life um it consumed your mind or it has done mine so every day i wake up the first thing i think am i gonna be able to talk today, you know? So immediately I'll wake up, I'll go in the bathroom and I'll look in the mirror and say a few words and it's fine or I think it's fine. The perception is fine in my head and then I'll go downstairs and talk to Anne and all of a sudden that pathway is restricted

and, oh, God, not again today, you know. And that's been hard to get my head around. And my therapist, Daniel, he says, you exaggerate it in your mind, you know, that's the problem because you've never had to think about your speech now you're thinking and you're overthinking so even though like you said it seems fine to you in my head I know that it's slower than it would have been had we spoken three years ago and that the cognition part the thoughts they're they're still the same yeah they're they're lightning quick yeah they're fine so uh they're there in terms of speech but i have days where if you're out and about or even indoors,

there's nothing in the brain area. So, you know, whereas I could normally go into a room, did it all the time, speak to everyone, have a laugh. That was the first thing on my mind. Now, that part of it is hard work and it feels hard work and it feels a struggle and it doesn't feel natural. That's the worst thing.

So I tend not to do it very often, you know, unless I'm feeling good I've you know spoken to someone else and I can tell it's fluid the voice then I'll go in a room and be myself again

Chris we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest they don't know who they're writing it for and they'll never find out um although i have said their name earlier on so you might be able to figure it out right but um the question they've written for you is i'm going to read it verbatim what has been the most happiest moment of your life full stop brought you the most joy and why uh is that kids aside or Let's say kids aside because that's, yeah.

Yeah, kids aside. Achieving my ambition and my dream, yeah. I can, you know, as a young black kid playing on the fields around where I live, thinking that one day I'll play at Ayersum Park for Middlesbrough and Ellen Road for Leeds. It's blown my mind away, you know. Ambition and dream achieved. Chris, thank you. I have no doubt that your ambitions and dreams are are just getting started because you have all of the the core the minerals that are required to achieve pretty much anything and you've shown that your life has been a testament to that even in the face of great

adversity thank you i thank you not just for myself and for you giving me your time today but um i don't think you realize how many people you're going to help in a really important profound way how much pain you're going to alleviate from them how you're going to make them feel seen and understood just by doing this today and just by not hiding in the shadows thank you so thank you and thank you for all the joy you've brought me

you've made football fun you've made it made me understand the game better over the course of pretty much my entire life so I'm for one i'm so glad that i still get to see you on the screens and i hope to see you a lot more i know you've got a show ninja warrior uk race for glory um which is airing on itv which i'm very excited about watching as well yeah i'm so glad i did it you know i tried to pull out when they rang me and said we've been commissioned for series seven i went oh no and

they went what do you mean oh no now when oh no you're not getting the old coming they said oh don't worry about it and uh i've watched a bit of the first episode and even though it don't sound like me it's possible you know so yeah i hope people enjoy it well as you said 25 of you is better than pretty much most anyone else so we'll take that thank you so much chris thanks Thank you.