The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Cole Sprouse: My Narcissistic Mum Sacrificed My Childhood For Fame!

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Cole Sprouse is an actor and photographer who has been lighting up our screens and bringing joy to our lives for now twenty years. The star of ‘Riverdale’, 'The Suite Life' and many more beloved TV shows and films, he's been possessed with the spirit of creativity since before he was out of his cradle. Cole: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3YJGklc Twitter: https://bit.ly/429em5i View his photography at: https://colesprousephoto.com/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. Have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly? No, I think it'll be fun. Paul Sprouse! From Disney Channel, the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, Riverdale, Big Daddy Friends. You're my hero! Thank you, sweet pea. Were you pushed into acting? I would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old. Single mom, two twin boys, put food on the table.

So the choice never really existed. You guys are big stars now. We are. Yes, sir. What do you think about that? My mother was living vicariously through the success of her children. A person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, but primarily narcissism. A wicked narcissism. But that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said that she was unfit. The court had to step in.

Your relationship with acting and the entertainment industry, it's been a journey. I loved being on stage. I didn't like the shit that came with it. This industry encourages the worst qualities of you. Selfishness, greed, you know, authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits. How do you feel about that? You're given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time

to carve out who you are. I've got two pictures here, then. What are the words unsaid to this individual? I'd probably kick his a**. Cole. Yes, Steve. Much of what I do here is I'm, especially at the start of these conversations,

is I'm trying to understand somebody. You know, I get to see the finish line i get to see their achievements the behaviors their personality during my research and i'm always trying you know this is ultimately why this podcast came to be on one hand in the name you hear the diary of a ceo and it was really me trying to show that there's this other side of these people including myself there's this other side that we don't often talk about and on the other hand just from a very personal perspective i've come to learn i'm so interested in like human beings why they do what they do and what causes them to do what they do at the very core of it um what do i need to know about you when if we zoom back to your earliest years to

understand the most influential things moments influences that caused you to be the complex, inspiring individual you are today? I mean, I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast with you at this time in my life, because for the last year and a half, I've really been thinking about questions like this. What is it that still compels me into certain professional pursuits or artistic pursuits now? I think when I was younger, it was definitely a financial pressure. There were kind of two kinds of kids, working kids, really. There was the kids that were doing it to put food on the table for mommy and daddy, and then like the thespian children, you know, like, mommy, I want to go into acting.

And they would show up, and it would be this huge gap between philosophies, between like, yeah, man, it's a job. And like, no, this is a craft. This is an art. And those kids kind of showed up around 14. And for me, I think I had trained a kind of workaholism since I was a child in order to, one, feel valued by my environment, both immediate family and audience in very many cases, that has stuck with me, a work ethic that has stuck with me now to this day. I do not feel good when I am not working.

And I think a lot of people can say that. That's something I've been trying to unpack over the last year and a half is, what would happen if I just simply stepped away for good and enjoyed my life, which is really the purpose of why we're all here? Would I be content with sitting down and fishing and growing my own vegetables and living sustain living sustainably or would I get so disenfranchised and bored that I would have to take back to the arts in some way or another and

I think I think the pressure of my upbringing really compelled me to continue doing what I am today I cannot live without the arts I mean I I cannot live without performance or expression in some kind because it's truly all I know and have known since I was eight months old. Since you were eight months old, you hold the record for being the guest on this show that started working the earliest. Tell me, tell me. Well, to be fair, I don't know if we can call it work. I don't, I don't believe I cued into consciousness until about like 10 years ago um when you're a baby you have that kind of lantern consciousness where only you know whatever exists is only in your immediate purview and then

as you age you know when you start to become less present you're like well i'm an adult and i feel like shit all the time um so i don't know about if i i perceived it as work but it certainly infused within me a kind of work ethic as i have aged um but yeah it established a relationship with work it did i mean it started for me financially uh single mom two twin boys put food on the table she is still able to be a mother while we can still pursue a sort of uh improvement of our lifestyle and in very many ways she was living vicariously through the success of her children but i think uh it certainly developed a relationship to uh professionalism much earlier than almost anyone else i know were you were you used the word pushed earlier were you pushed into acting

in your view well I didn't you know I would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old I don't even think I knew you know I was on screen I don't remember much of like the early early the diaper commercials and things like that so So the choice never really existed. I was there. That's it. How do you feel about that? I think gratefulness and ungratefulness can exist simultaneously. And I am tremendously grateful of the financial stability

I have acquired now as a 30-year-old and being able to say, yeah, I'm okay now. Um, I think in many ways I traded sort of the lantern consciousness of youth and sort of the carefree presentedness of youth for financial stability that I would come to appreciate as an older man. But I don't regret too much. I don't. I think if I were to sit here and talk about regretting my childhood within the industry, I think that would be silly. It toughened the hell out of both my brother and I and many kids that go through that same thing. But I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the financial stability of it. Yeah. And I also am grateful to have done it in a time where you

could get your Gladwell 10,000 hours in anonymously. You know, if you did a crappy direct-to-DVD movie, just for kicks, I'm looking at you for anyone who knows this. If you did your crappy soccer movie, it would go to the back of Blockbuster and no one would see it. Now with social media, there's no way that you can cut your teeth in silence anymore. Everyone sees your portfolio globally and you're expected to put it on display.

I feel quite afraid for young actors now your portfolio globally and you're expected to put it on display i find it you know i i feel quite afraid for young actors now who have to hone their craft over time but do it to a global audience that sucks you've got a you've got a twin brother yes um 15 minutes older than you yes as he always likes to yes in my face your parents you mentioned single mother i am as i read through your story i saw a ton of similarities between the way you described your relationship with your with your mother and the way that i often describe the relationship still to this day with my mother can you tell me about both your your mother and your father and the journey you kind of went on i know five years old roughly they divorced sure i i i don't remember the exact

timeline of divorce um but i remember only having one memory of them being together uh when i was very very young and then from that point on my father was in switzerland and my mother was in la he would eventually move out to la in order to try and repair the family. But my mother was, still is, the kind of tortured artist type she struggled with in very many ways her place in the world. I think she found a tremendous amount of self-identity through motherhood and tried to turn it into a profitable business at the same time, which for identical twin boys going into acting is sort of economic loophole through labor laws that can be incredibly profitable. So that's what she did. And as I've thought about it, it seemed like to me it made a lot of financial sense to her to put us into acting.

I think it satisfied some sort of narcissism that she probably had in order to be recognized as this sort of artistic success. She was a wonderful painter, so she always wanted sort of artistic legitimacy and validation. But as time went on, I think the entertainment industry just kind of broke her. You know, this industry in very many ways, it encourages the worst qualities of you as a person. Narcissism, selfishness, greed, a lot of these things that we have come to know as practically cardinal sins.

It's one of those things that encouraged a kind of selfishness that was directly opposed to the very fundamental idea of motherhood. And as I grew older, in my case, the court had to step in and rend my brother and I towards our father, who's an incredible guy. But that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said that she was unfit. And I think as I've aged and I've looked back on a lot of the circumstances of that entire environment, I see a person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, but primarily narcissism, a wicked narcissism. The inability to perceive anything outside your own perspective would probably be the biggest sickness I see. And that just doesn't work with being a mother.

That just doesn't work with being in a family in general you know when when it rains it rains on everyone's roofs that's how it goes it takes a village man and selfishness that is encouraged very much like i said from the industry just doesn't really work doesn't really work for being a mother. It's easy to look at this, that situation objectively and go, okay, just don't speak to them. But this is your mother. Yeah. That's something I've dealt with a lot too. That's my question, which is like, how do you, how have you tried to separate the two? There's so many people listening to this right now who have a member of their family that is a toxic influence in whatever way and they struggle with this idea that it's a big one yeah right like because they're blood i have to persist

with the relationship i have to tolerate it whereas if this was someone who was i just met on the street or in school i would fucking i would chop off the relationship straight away right how have you dealt with with the duality of both it being blood but also being unacceptable behavior yeah it's a great question um i don't think you ever fully reconcile it i think it's the difference between this like kind of immortal abstract connection to someone this thing that we call love this this energy not not to sound too California, but this sort of immortal connection between a mother and a child or a father and a son or whatever it is. And how do you distinguish that

from anyone else who you would immediately cut off? And I think for me, I've recently, you know, I've recently arrived at the philosophy that almost everything is some sort of lesson that we must take. And I think lessons like this, when it comes to parents, when it comes to people who are supposed to be

these sort of immortal, almost godlike figures in your life, especially during your youth, that is the greatest lesson for your humanity that you can acquire. The distinction between love and care and abandonment and pain as you grow. I wouldn't call myself a religious man but I do believe that everyone is put here in your life

to have these interactions with you for some kind of reason and I know that sounds like fatedness which can be we'll leave that for another podcast but I think it's I think it's a lesson that you have to learn,

and it's all in a way reflecting back and carving you into the person that you're supposed to be. I also think it tests your patience and your love and the people that really persist and continuously try and find the love after all the pain, consistently re-arrive to the care and the connection and the love, even though you've been, you know, deeply wounded by the ones who are supposed to be at your round table. Those are the strongest individuals, in my opinion. You know, if you can

consistently come to the other side of that conversation and go i will still choose to care i will still choose to love um that speaks a lot about you at some point you have to put your love for yourself of course first it's the old oxygen mask analogy your journey with with your mother you're very young you don't really know what's going on you're acting you're doing these things at some point in your adolescence or beyond, you figure out that this is not normal behavior. This is not acceptable behavior for a mother and a son. Sure. When was that? Oh, I mean, I guess when social services came knocking is usually when it happens. I don't know. I would go over to my father's house because the court gave primary

custody to my mother. And this is one I don't know too much about the UK legal system in this regard, but the United States legal system is incredibly biased towards the mother in cases of divorce and custody. And in this case, it certainly should have been my father taking custody. And this is obviously a case by case basis. But I would go into, you know, we'd spend some time with my father like once a week and we wouldn't be able to eat candy and do whatever the fuck we wanted. He would, you know, make us go and exercise and play outside. And there was a regimen. There was a healthy regimen. It wasn't, you know, we weren't allowed to do whatever the fuck we wanted.

And I think at that point I was going, when you're a child, you go, man, this is no fun. But as you sort of pan out for a moment and you go, wow, I'm actually feeling a lot better here. I'm present here. I'm happy here, even though I don't get to eat ice cream all the time you know am i making sense with this please um social services don't get called for eating ice cream no no they don't and i won't go too much into that because i don't want to make this whole podcast about another young man in la with mommy issues yeah uh but i do think that that the circumstances of my life at least my childhood

are much like the sort of cliche narrative that you hear a lot about child stars but I don't talk about it too much because I don't ever want to be perceived as a victim of it I am not and have never been and never will be a victim of any circumstance that I am in I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder. I don't like to act like I am my wounds and to repeatedly be reminded of my wounds.

What happened in my youth happened and carved me and forged me into the person I am today. For better and for worse, right? For better. For purely better. even through pain. We trade trauma for wisdom. That's what we do as humans. When we go through heavy experiences, it deepens our eyes. And, you know, I think for me, the reason I haven't really talked about it too much in the past is because one, the media has a way of sensationalizing scars and victimhood like this is a person's character. And in very many ways it is.

But they don't talk about the strength that is the byproduct of pain. They talk about the pain, which is useless. Like all it does is perpetuate the past, which I think is a pain that existed in the past rather than going, my God, look how well he's done for himself, even though he's had such a tough upbringing. I think Oprah is another wonderful example of this where her story, her origin tale, so to speak,

is very well known. And look at what a beautiful example of success that she's become over time. That to me is the most beautiful way that I think media can sensationalize a story of pain. But I find that it's oftentimes not. And I also feel like we're in a climate right now that really encourages people to talk about the victimization of pain more than they do about the triumph over it. The strength that comes as a byproduct of that pain. And so that's mainly why I don't talk about it too much, because I don't want to be that guy. You know, I don't want to be that guy that's like, owie, all the time. No, man, you're given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them

and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to carve out who you are. One of the things I've mulled over from speaking to people on this podcast is about this idea that that trauma you describe, if it ever goes away, you know. Should it? Ask yourself that. That's a good question. It probably, I have to say, it probably shouldn't because as you assert earlier on, it's a lesson that you learned so that you could deal with your environmental circumstance.

And just like the lesson I learned of not putting my hand into fire, I'm not going to unlearn that at 30. There's no therapy that could help me. Yeah, of course. And unfortunately, I'm speaking for myself here. I don't know about you, but I'm a dumbass that needs to learn by his own mistakes. I mean, I can watch my father go, hey, man, you need to drink water at this watering hole. But I, you, but you can't drag me there and make me drink. I have to make mistakes in order to learn from my mistakes. And a lot of my friends are very similar. But I don't think those lessons should ever go away. Like I said about my validation thing sticking around with me, what stuck around with you?

The workaholism has definitely stuck with me i need validation a lot i think that's a pretty common uh thing for most artists just to have um but i am the byproduct of the byproduct of um moments of incredible narcissism and moments of severe self-loathing. And right in the middle is when I do my best work. But a lot of that operation and the fluctuation between those two things is determined by people going,

God damn, you're good. What if they say, what if they invalidate what if they say god damn you suck i spiral of course but i don't let it hang on me i try not to let it hang on me what does a spiral look like um man maybe i should just run away and and not do this and you know get some chickens some eggs and live off the grid and whatever it is. It also manifests as the inability to sort of say your desires out loud for fear of looking like a fool. I think L.A. does that too because I think vulnerability is just something that we don't really encourage here in Los Angeles. Why is that?

Because it's not cool, but it's not cool to Angelenos because someone that is cool hasn't said it like that before. Do you know what I'm saying? It's a lot of imposter syndrome in Los Angeles. And so authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits um before you arrived i was saying to my team i was like i watch all these interviews with people like yourself from la that's stars actors and i go no one's ever asked them an interesting question it seems genuinely that's before you walked in this is what i was saying i was because lucy hell was the same she goes this is the first time i've had a deep conversation i'm

like why and then i mimicked what interviewers are like here's like hey where'd you get your shoes yeah and then you're like so can you speak to your twin and you're mine yeah of course who the fuck wants to talk about that just people actually you know yeah yeah yeah i mean because it's safe yeah right because it's a safe thing you know this is why i love the podcast space is because the podcast space creates nuance yeah nuance and and context a beautiful it gives you the whole context right there which is something that a lot of people you know in interview settings or otherwise are completely devoid of when you're selling publication, when you're selling an interview with someone on paper, you don't really get the context.

Oh, well, the context was it was pouring rain outside for the last blah, blah, blah, and you arrived to the studio and you got to sit down and have a tête-à-tête and we talked about having similar birthdays and we talked about Botswana beforehand and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get the context.

You get the connection, which I think is gorgeous. Yeah, same. And I think it also creates a really beautiful way to discover the honest humanity and opinion of people because we're you know entertainment media it's sensational we're only going to sell the worst person in the world and the best person in the world we're not going to sell the humans in between you know and and most of us fit fit a kind of gray morality that doesn't really...

Not all of us are these fucking outliers that are like these really firm radical fucking people that are saying these radicalized things in order to preach to the sensationalism of the internet. Most of us have these kind of moderate places that we sit.

I think the podcast space is fucking awesome for that, man. You really get to sit and connect to people and have a conversation. And for people that are interested, they fucking listen. It's great. Your journey with your relationship with acting and the entertainment industry. Yeah. It's been a journey. Oh, for sure, man.

Can you give me kind of like a timeline of that journey and how you've felt through the process with your relationship with acting? Absolutely. Started at eight months old. When you say that, it still baffles my mind. Diaper commercials, things like that. Did commercials. Worked on a sitcom for a bit.

Still wasn't really fully conscious. We were still doing the baby acting thing. Did a sitcom called Grace Under Fire. A couple other little TV spots here and there. Identical twins, switching places, blah, blah, blah. Then we booked Big Daddy with Adam Sandler when we were around six. And that was like the big thing at the time. This point about the use of twins in acting.

Yeah. Some people might not understand the context. Oh, okay. You'd like me to explain yeah just don't play for this children can only work a certain amount of hours which is a very strange thing to say out loud um in the button factory in the coal mines we can only work for two hours a day uh no but we can only work for a certain amount of hours um and so if you have two twins that look identical to each other, that people can't perceive as anything other than the same character, you double the amount of hours you can work,

which is an incredible economic loophole for a lot of young actors. Like hitting the jackpot. Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course. It was great. Work the system, baby. But the problem is when you start, at least from that philosophy, and you go into an art, we've commodified almost all of the arts that exist. But when you enter into a form of expression in a professionalized or work dynamic, it's hard to see that as a pursuit of passion.

So my journey through acting over time has been one of trying to balance art and commerce in a way, one for the money, two for the show sort of thing, where I need to be reminded consistently to myself that I love this thing. Do you know what i'm saying making my money becoming financially stable getting financially stable taking jobs that are that aren't paying as much but doing cool projects and making yourself feel more in love with the

discipline and i think you know this is this is a particular approach that has to come from a certain socioeconomic background. If you are, you know, this Nepo baby conversation has been huge out here in L.A. I don't know how big it's been out in the U.K., but if you come from a financially stable background and you can see it with any actor that has a really stellar resume, where you're like, God, you've picked great movie after great movie after great movie. You've been a part of all these really cool projects. Well, they probably had a lot of financial stability because those projects pay you fucking nothing. Right. freedom of expression to take these artistic projects and reinvigorate this passion for you, even in the face of commodification of an expression, then you can have a really stellar career. But if you also have to make money alongside it, you're probably not going to

take the super cool jobs. You got to sell drinkable yogurt for a little bit in order to go to college. You know what I mean? Yeah. This is the balance between art and commerce that a lot of people don't understand in almost every other art, at least in photography. This is a great example. No one looks at someone doing a commercial gig and then going back to the

editorial world and going, why would they do that commercial? Yeah. That's so strange. But in acting they do. There's a huge division between those two people massive big daddy yeah that's where we left off wasn't it yes big daddy so got big daddy at six um adam was just incredible we shot that movie for far longer than it needed to be shot in new

york city um it's my first time going to new york uh and then that was a whirlwind were you cognizant at this point of your feelings with acting your relationship with the industry no it was super present okay which is good which is what i think we're all trying to get back to is this sort of lantern consciousness of of youth in terms of acting this is a state of play because no one should go into acting and be like i'm going to act you know that's i don't think that's yeah i don't think that's right um but i was still very present at the time um and then big daddy came out and alongside it came this whirlwind of opinion and conversation and fame and and all this sort of stuff of stuff, which was very polarizing,

but would lead me into, I worked on a couple other direct-to-DVD movies at the time for some cash money, and then did Friends. I was a recurring role on Friends, and then Dylan and I would end up booking uh the sweet life on disney which of course was another huge lifesaver um and your relationship with acting at this point is what you're very commercial okay are you enjoying it um not really because now it had become a thing

that was taking me away from playing in the cul-de-sac with the friends you know what i mean so i loved school like i loved going to school i loved playing with my friends and and all that sort of thing so at the time i couldn't see it as anything other than that but that's you know that's what a child does um and then we did the sweet life and then i actually really did not mind not going to school so we were homeschooled from the sweet life onwards and then I actually really did not mind not going to school so we were homeschooled from the sweet life onwards and then every every conversation because I kept a lot of my super close friends you're 12 and 15 at this uh this would yeah so we did that from 12 to 18 12 to 18 oh and the sweet sweet life would yes would be the sweet life on deck the spin-off um and when

we got to high school age all of my friends would tell me these stories from high school american public high school that was just like god damn you lived through that shit i don't want to be part of that at all this sounds horrible and so then i was quite thankful to not be doing that um and then i went to college you picked up photography around this time i did around 18 i actually went to london and the first time i went to london i said i should get myself a camera and document my brother and i's little journey through london i found a really curious quote that you said about the reason why you chose photography sure um relating to it allowed you to escape your depression yeah yeah i think a lot of people have sort of discussed that one quote.

I think I was certainly, I had gone through a huge breakup after college, right at the end of college, and picked my camera up again. And you put a lot of my emotional state into just shooting, hobbyism, which is a real wonderful thing to do when you are feeling sad, is pick up a hobby, dive into hobbyism. And so I pushed myself into a lot of that. And in very many ways it allowed time to pass more quickly and for me to heal more effectively but I also did it because I wanted to express my vision

in very many ways when you're an actor you are the byproduct of the writing the direction and the editing and a lot of people assume you have much more creative agency over a project than you do, but I don't find that to be the case when you're a commercial employee actor. When you are working on commercial projects, in very many ways, they're controlling the image of you

that people are seeing, and they control the takes, and you're as bound to the project as the writing is good or bad, and the directors are changing week to week, so it's a difficult relationship to expression and self-identity. And I, I think at the time I was really looking for a way to tell people, Hey, this is what I can do if I'm given creative freedom. Um, I don't think I've achieved that. No, your work is amazing. I was just saying to you, I wasn't just blowing smoke up your ass. I, I went on and i thought oh we're moving into a new house me and my girlfriend i

thought this would be brilliant if we come out the elevator i'll just send you something thank you so much that's me yeah i i hate i hate anything i i do after two weeks so i'll send you some of the newer stuff textbook creative yeah what when's the moment in your life where you both loved and then the moment where you hated acting the most? I came back to it. Yeah. You know, I was college. Yeah. I was at real fork in the road and I, um, made a promise to someone that I would return to acting, but I never anticipated I would. And I was reminded that I love performance, which is, I love to perform in front of people. Um, and I love the presentedness of a performance.

Like when you wake up at the end of the take and you go, man, I don't, I barely remember what I was even doing right there. That was, I just felt that. I love that. I love performing for the crew.

I love, I loved being on stage. I didn't like the shit that came with it because when I was young, you know, acting was like the grilled chicken came with it because when I was young you know acting was like the grilled chicken of the dish it was like it was the biggest part of the course and the side salad was like the red carpet stuff and and whatever the fuck it is and now that social media has made it so that the the whole thing's just a grilled chicken salad now I mean like like the salad is almost a bigger part of your success than the

act, the act of performance. And I think in very many ways, you know, your celebrity profile has been become far too intermingled into your work as a professional. And all of us within the industry are recoiling and trying to figure out a way to, to, you you know figure out how to deal with that i was i have to be honest i had a good laugh at your other instagram account yeah that's polarized a lot of people but but i at the same time i thought i understood i read about your sort of social anxiety that came with came along with the fame and then i heard you'd create this instagram account of taking people taking pictures of, taking pictures of you covertly without asking permission. And then I thought to myself, this is a great idea, but it's going to encourage it.

Yeah, of course it did. Yeah, no, it totally did, which I don't mind as much that it encourages people. Um, because all it's done is just further reinforce why i've done it yeah which is like hey people are not going to care about anything other than the uh than bragging about a place they've been or a person they've seen you know how do you feel about that uh i don't mind it because all of us kind of just do it we're taught to do that sort of thing um but i don't know if i'd necessarily make those people my friends how does it how does it feel to be on the receiving end of it every day i understand it did you always um yeah actually i did did you ever struggle with it um of course i struggled with it for sure i'm asking this for

myself yeah yeah well i think look man we're always searching for um a much deeper emotional connection to another human being you know it would i would much rather have someone be like like this podcast is a great example tell me about what it was like growing up in your position and if anyone ever asked me that i I would be an open book. You truly could come up to me and ask me any question on the street, and I would probably hold a tête-à-tête with you. But people want to show other people. Yeah, but don't.

Don't do that. But I think people want to show what they're up to right now and that's totally fine and natural um well i don't know if it's natural but uh we're you know we're conditioned to do that but i think you know whether it's you know you're doing it ironically or authentically or you're truly excited or you admire someone or you want to just prove to other people i think most people have to understand that there is probably a greater connection to be made that exists there's a choice that you make when when you're asking for a very surface level shallow interaction with someone um and that the alternative did exist where you could probably deepen your relationship

to, to, um, an individual that you've wanted to talk to. Uh, so I don't really mind when people do it. It just means that person's not going to be a cool connection to me personally. Like I'm not going to remember that connection in my life when I'm telling stories and things. Whereas, you know, I did a movie called Five Feet Apart, which dealt a lot with cystic fibrosis. And I've had a lot of people who live with cystic fibrosis come up to me and talk to me about cystic fibrosis and talk to me about that film. And those are connections, in my opinion, that have lasted with me. I remember almost every single conversation I've had with something like that because it's not a, yo, let's take a pic. It is, hey, man, I want to let you know that I go through this, something that you were trying to portray in this and, you know, it affected me like this. And it's a discussion that enriches both people. And even if you don't like the individual, you know, let's say you see someone that you really don't like the work of, or you don't like the persona of, going up and asking them a question is probably going to yield

so much more to you than the alternative. But we want to show everything on Instagram and social media and TikTok and whatever it is, because we want, you know, we're all creatures of validation. We want to see the likes and the whatever the fuck it is. And I'm, I've done it too. I'm not saying I haven't done it. You know, I've, I've, I've taken a picture or tried to take a picture of John C. Reilly, who I really admire. You know, I, there, there's a lot of people that I, I deeply admire, but if I were given the choice between asking them a compelling question and taking a photo, I would probably choose the compelling question for sure. That social anxiety, few will really know what that's like. People without fame will often experience social anxiety for their own

reasons as well. But when you say social anxiety, can you give me a picture of what that feels like in reality? Oh, sure uh paint an image of it you're very good at painting images with your words by the way oh thank you that's great you're enjoyable to listen to you know what my social anxiety feels a lot like sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit too hot like the sauna right before you have to get out you know what i mean it's it's like this warm sort of blanketing feeling, but it's not warm. It's fucking hot.

But it's a blanket over me for sure. And it's this kind of, for me, anxiety is really present. Even though I'm thinking about future possibility or past actions that I've made, it is a consistent, I'm living, um, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this. And so in that way, it's almost blanketed over me. Um, and what I'll do for that anxiety is,

is I will activate my five senses. What do I see? i smell what can i hear can i taste anything what do i feel on my skin and it immediately grounds me in the present these things are grounding mechanisms that i really enjoy when i start to feel social anxiety have you learned that somewhere yeah i think i did where did you where did you learn that um well i did uh i went to therapy i've had i've gone to therapy off and on my whole life um but he was a wonderful man up in vancouver that taught me the sort of grounding techniques and he's right but i mean it does you know it can be a therapist it can be a father figure it can be anyone that teaches you essentially the root of it is be present grounded such a great tool yeah it's it's it present ground yourself in the present yeah it's

it's it's you know all the eastern philosophers and the buddhists were trying to tell you to do this shit the whole time meditate ground yourself in the present you know grounding yourself in the present is the greatest enemy of anxiety what are the tools have you learned from therapy i feel like i can uh i can learn a lot from you without having to pay the therapist. Sure. Oh, that's flattering. Yeah, I try not to talk too much about mental health just in general

because everyone has an incredibly personal relationship to it. And I feel like there's a lot of armchair experts on the internet right now acting like, you know, or diagnosing people or doing stuff like that, which I find that is so atrocious. I can't believe people even do that. And I think the conversation around mental health, unless it's being done by truly a trained professional, is probably not the greatest thing to listen to. So with that disclaimer, I will say, whenever I'm feeling heightened emotionally, I will take a break from whatever I am doing.

I will truly walk away from whatever I am doing. I will tell if it is an argument with someone, I will go, hey, right now I'm feeling some heightened emotion. If you don't mind, let's pick up this conversation in about 20 minutes. Give yourself time. I try to approach everything with a kind of logos that allows me to think more clearly and calmly about what I do,

which can be off-putting to some people because not a lot of people like being met uh with logos when they're heightened emotionally or being met with solutions when they're just trying to vent um it's one of the first things you learn when you're in a serious relationship yeah especially as a guy for sure because most a lot of a lot of us are solution-based people. I can relate. But I'll take a break. That's honestly the most helpful thing I've done. I'll also try and remind myself of grounding myself in the senses. Or I'll remind myself that, one, you're not the only person that's ever gone through anxiety or will ever go through anxiety. two um the problem as you perceive it the vastness of the problem as you perceive it is not the way other people perceive it what about your

relationship with boundaries what what please explain what so you know you're the very first story you told about being eight months old at eight months old you don't have boundaries of course yeah so they are obviously easily exploited as you grow older sometimes when those boundaries weren't firm when they were young and you were maybe people pleasing or you were seeking validation, that can have a sort of cascading effect into adulthood. What's your relationship been like with saying no and protecting boundaries, whether it's professionally, personally in relationships? Well, that's a great question. And one I'm far more qualified to answer now than I was even two years, three years ago. I can honest to God say that I did not love myself enough as a younger man, especially my mid to late 20s. For sure did not love myself enough, did not respect my own boundaries. What did that look like?

That looked like rolling over in the face of a lot of adversity, especially when it came to romantic relationships. Um, I was a people pleaser. I, I was a people pleaser professionally. I was a people pleaser, uh, romantically. I was practically a fucking nurse to whoever needed my help in very many ways, likely as a byproduct of my upbringing. But, um, what that meant was oftentimes crossing my own boundaries as an attempt to make others feel better. And as I've gotten older, I've become more okay with turning people off,

which is all right. You're going to polarize individuals. You are going to get along with certain people and not get along with other people. That's totally okay. And I think as I've aged, I've tried to, um, I've tried to remind myself, yeah, that was an awkward interaction. That was a bad interaction with someone, but you're going to have those, man. That's okay. Move on. And as I've loved myself now,

and thankfully I'm, you know, I'm in a relationship right now with a woman who's so emotionally understanding and just the best. And, you know, it helps when others can be like, yeah, dude, encourage you in the right direction and be like, yeah, it's okay. Like we're like because i will i know myself i will fall back on like are you all right like is everything okay like

like trying to control a situation through making sure everyone is happy you know but it's not a you know it's not a fucking video game you can't get like the best solution where everyone is okay sometimes you're gonna really have to polarize some people and that's all right. My only boundaries I would say when it comes to my professional career or otherwise, I really don't like condescension. So like if I feel condescension in any sort of way, if I see other people being condescending to others, if I can sense a kind of pretentiousness or condescension, that's usually something that will either take me to leave the room or confront another person about it and be like, hey, why'd you do that? What has that relationship you described, what has love taught you about yourself? Oh, so much, man.

I've had the pleasure of being in love three times. The pleasure. I've had college. I dated a co-star on Riverdale. And now I'm in love again. And every time it has been pretty distinct. I think maybe the first two, college and my last girlfriend, were far more similar because of me, because I was still approaching it the same way. And then I did a lot of self-work and I fell in love again, thankfully. And it has taught me a lot. Like I mentioned, I was a people pleaser. I was deathly afraid of being perceived as anything other than perfect for a long time. And so I would

roll over quite a bit in order to make sure that as long as they were happy, that's what love is, is a sort of consistent happiness. And I was also actively suppressing my emotions and not really discussing what I actually felt about a situation because I was afraid of retaliation in very many ways. I was afraid. Where did that come from? Oh, I mean, certainly my youth. Certainly my youth. Your youth?

I think growing up and building an entire life and business model off of the validation of other people certainly made me open to it. But I also think the first relationship I ever had with a female figure, which is the mother figure in everyone's life, was an incredibly tenuous and fractured relationship with a tortured individual, which made me go, I can fix things. Don't worry. I got it. You know, no, you're all good. It's okay. And I brought that in. I brought that in a lot. Were you trying to make her happy? Oh, of course. Yeah, I think so. When I was younger, especially, but even now as an adult, you know. Even now? Yeah, yeah, of course. You don't speak to your mother anymore?

I don't, I don't. But she put me on this path. And there was once a woman who was very clear-headed and who had a beautiful vision of the kind of people my brother and I could be. And in very many ways, I honor the dream she once had. So that if she were lucid enough and came back and saw what I had become, she would go, man, I was right. And in that way, it would validate the entire life of pain and trauma

that she has gone through. Are you sad about what your relationship is with her? Of course. Everyone is. Everyone is sad about something that could, I mean, unless you're a sociopath. When something beautiful and lovely goes rotten, it can be a very sad thing. And it does make me sad,

but it's also life. And that's the lesson that I've had to learn from it is that, you know, that sadness is okay. It means I'm human. It means I loved something outside of myself in a way that was so beautiful and so boundless that it that it makes me feel one of the strongest and most eternal of human emotions which is sadness like real sadness and that's okay do you do this part of you like hold out and this is kind of speaking from my experience as well does part of you kind of hold out for things to just get better or go completely wrong get better no i don't know what about the opposite you seem to more compelled by the opposite outcome go completely wrong um i mean i'm sure you've reconciled this as well but there's a part of you that goes oh what if this is my last communication with an individual you know of course you have how would that make me feel as a consequence thereof

how would it make you feel if this was your you've never got to speak to your mother again you know of course you have how would that make me feel as a consequence thereof how would it make you feel if this was you've never got to speak to your mother again you know and going back to the previous question i tried for very very many years to try and to try and do everything i could um but at some point or another it comes down to the individual which is the hardest part like you want someone to change or do something and this also goes to romance this goes to friendships this goes to to blood to whatever it is you can really yearn for someone to do the right thing and the hardest part is even if you set up the entire environment for them to do so, unless they choose it for themselves, it's just not going to happen.

And so I used to blame myself quite a bit for not just my relationship to blood, but, you know, I used to blame myself for all of the relationships in my life going wrong until I realized that, yeah, in almost every relationship, it takes two to tango, friendships, romance, blood. The other person has to be a participant in the dance just as much as you are participating in the dance in order for the outcome to be the one that you guys both desire when you say that you used to blame yourself for relationships in your life going wrong does that mean that you originally blamed yourself for the relationship with either your mother or father or the relationship between you and your mother going

wrong um i did because unfortunately as a consequence of being a working child, you're forced into an authority position when you're quite small, right? Which is now you're the breadwinner of a family over the adults. So in very many ways, you take this very strange, like, role of authority and and positioning when it comes to uh the subsistence of of a nuclear family which is not a role a child should be put in so when it does go wrong as a natural byproduct of the authority that you feel as a consequence of you know your professional life you can adopt some of the blame on yourself which i will say i do not do anymore was that are you talking about the divorce there or are you talking about the relationship with your mother yeah just everything work mother like whatever it is super interesting yeah

yeah i mean dude it's this is also like it should be said that the working child a child that has worked since they were eight months old you have to understand that that is a not to sound like a fucking special snowflake as an identical twin you know what i mean which is the greatest contradiction but that is a life an upbringing that is very very very very rare, very rare. Very rare. There's only a handful of people that have that really weird path through the world. Most of them are in the United States. And most of them, you know,

the sensationalism of their upbringing is talked about all over. So that comes with a lot of bullshit. And it affects, to tie us all back, I'm getting us back. Good, thank God for that, because I couldn't see how we'd make it back. That affects how you navigate everything in your life.

Your relationships, which is what we were talking about, friendships, blood, all that stuff. And my relationships were deeply affected by my upbringing of course my friendships were affected by my upbringing my relationship to my family was affected by my upbringing but at some point or another you have to go yeah i'm on the right path and even if it's not i'll try and make it the right path and i'll grow from it what makes you alive then like what brings what brings your heart alive these days? Passionate conversation. Really? For sure. Without a doubt. How many of them have you had? Lots. Publicly? Not publicly. No. In fact, I've only done one other podcast. Um, and these kinds of public conversations are quite rare,

which is why I love this medium so much, but I, but I've, I've thankfully, I've surrounded myself with individuals that are capable of all having these conversations and for really diving into what it is that makes us all feel alive. And I think, truthfully, I think seekers of this kind of conversation find each other. It's weird. They really do. And you can see it in others' eyes. Like, you can see people that love this shit in their eyes. And so I think, I mean mean i host dinner parties and stuff and try and get as many people together to have these sort of

conversations and it can be a little bit awkward for the first five minutes oh what are we talking about um but that's incredibly enriching to me okay so you've just you've just teed this up so perfectly perfect hit it everything you've just described the this up so perfectly. Perfect, hit it. Everything you've just described, the type of person that likes deep conversations is very much the type of people that listen to the diary of a CEO. And we have a closing tradition on this podcast where guests write a question in the diary for the next guest.

They never get to see who they're writing it for. So because we know that the type of person that listens to this is by clear linkage, terrible use of words, the type of person that likes deep conversations we wanted to take all of the questions out of this diary that have been written into them and allow people to play at dinner parties the driver's year which is they can ask their friends deep conversations that have been written into this book you also get to see who wrote the the question

for the first time i want to play with you yeah Yeah, please. Right now. Ask me some questions. I took some cards out. There's about 100 cards in total, but I took the ones that I thought were the biggest stitch up. Oh, man, that's a great idea. I love that. So what I'm going to do, I will also answer one.

Yeah. But I'm going to lay them out here. You pick one that you want to answer, whichever one feels right for you. And then I'll pick one as well, and I'll answer it. Well, we'll go through all of them. So we'll pick one at a time.

One. Okay, I'll pick one at a time one can i okay i'll pick one so so you you answer that one i answer this one yeah this is by tim grover this is what is your dark side um i think the dark side of myself is definitely the narcissistic side of myself that can come out when I am feeling super proud of something that I do. And I will oftentimes try to humble that. It'll get me seeking decadence. It'll get me seeking external stimulation from my environment and yearning for that, which is what every Stoic philosopher would be like.

Dude, shut up. And I really relate to that i i think my worst side is the side that is seeking validation from other people um rather than understanding and placing myself in my environment and going wow i'm so privileged to have what i have and where i'm at and i believe that's the answer yeah okay mine is from wall store who is an expert on the topic of status cool i wrote a book about it and which is kind of about validation wanting to be famous who is the person you'd most like to say sorry to but haven't i told you i picked these questions to stitch you up but i decided to answer them when i laid them

out so mine would actually be my mother yeah because she didn't get an education so um i've often framed her in my story as being i don't know like she she's been the center point of difficult moments in my life but she is also like the 95 of my story with her is just this woman that absolutely to her core absolutely loves me and my whole life her whole life is me and and you know like growing up she did everything for us. She raised us five days a week. She can't read or write herself growing up. She raised these four kids that I think are all pretty good, decent kids. So I'd say that I'd probably say sorry to her

for not spending enough time in conversation talking about her brilliance and the fact that I am the reason, she is the reason I'm an entrepreneur. Great answer, man. Great answer. Okay. You pointed at one, but I'm gonna pick it i don't know i don't know rochelle humes if you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently what

day would it be and why? That's difficult. I try not to live doing that too much where I feel like I need to change something. But, so I am sober. I've been sober for about a year and some change and it's been a wonderful thing in my life. But I have thankfully had the self-awareness

to apologize to some people in my life in the past in a similar way to the card that you just pulled. And in order to protect another person's feelings, I did not tell them that I was going to be apologizing to an individual, um, because I was afraid of the consequences of that face to face meeting. I know this is a little confusing, um, but if I could turn back and do it differently, I would be so transparent about that meeting over coffee to the affected individuals

in order to be like hey i'm letting you know this is happening i know that this is blah blah blah but i just want to let you know with full transparency this is what it is blah blah blah um got you but otherwise i try not to live like that so i'm clear you apologize to someone and there was there was, there was a repercussion of that apology, which you wish you had kind of foresaw and addressed. Yeah, exactly right. Cool.

Exactly right. Because sometimes meeting with other people makes others uncomfortable. Like you there, you know, especially, especially as you grow older, some people are like, why'd you meet with that individual? But I think for me, I would have just been super super transparent about it and be like hey this is happening and that's been a consequence of the work I've done as I've cleaned my life up

so I look back on that one day and I go hey man the work you did should have told you that you could have been fully transparent with that even if it made other people uncomfortable and I probably would have done that different but otherwise i try not i really try not to think like that because they're lessons right because it's all lessons because i made that mistake for a reason you know and now i'll never do it again and the fact that i even

said that as an answer means i've already learned my lesson you'd rather the lesson was in the past yeah of course of course and in the future at some point okay here we go tell me something about yourself that nobody knows and would be surprised to know about you fucking hell let's hear about your internet history bro marissa pierre um so i had a guest on this podcast called Steve Peters, who's just this incredible like psychiatric therapist, et cetera, et cetera. After he left, I contacted him and spoke to him about something. I was dealing with this predicament in my mind and I was bouncing between two outcomes. And it's the first time in my entire life, and I've spoken to so many therapists

that I've ever spoken to a therapist privately to try and resolve something. And I say that because, I say that for one, honestly, just for one reason, which is I've spent so long on this podcast talking to therapists, including Marissa Peer,

who wrote this question, Marissa Peer. But I've never spoken about the fact that I too have spoken to a therapist about personal challenges that I've faced and Marissa Peer is just one of the best ever and so is Professor Steve Peters. Do you feel embarrassed? I think I did I think I did I think I think I always have I think it's funny because this is therapy for me and I lay it all out you know I yeah the Diary of a CEO started as like my therapy

it was like me writing things in this diary then sharing with them with the world but I despite my guests telling me about the profundity of speaking to someone else as you have today as you did in Canada I believe I've never done it myself until that moment where I spoke to Steve and said this is what I'm dealing with like how do I navigate through this and it's incredible i i think it or because you can't your brain can't think yourself out of the fucking no i i also think a good therapist is like you know your first house like like it arrives to you precisely when it's supposed to you know it because ultimately what we're all seeking, at least in therapy with the help of a trained professional,

but it's a human connection. Let's do another person. We all want our goodwill hunting. We want to sit down and have someone who has a deeply enticing personal connection to you and goes, I hear you, man. I hear you. You're okay.

Have you thought about it this way? And so I do find a lot of these kinds of conversations can be inching close to that. And then that way I'll say, I do think there are a ton of different forms of therapy, you know, of self-soothing of methods. I find a tremendous therapy by going into the wilderness as an example. You know, I, I, I find that a really healthy thing for me to do to sort of disconnect and leave and go into the woods and do all that sort of stuff. But I also think the other stuff is super valuable too. And I, I, I don't think there's any shame in talking about it. I think that's great. I've, I've thought about it so many times in my life. Like there's been so many moments in my life, I think like 10 where I've seriously

considered like, I need, I need to go speak to someone else about this. Cause I can't figure this out myself. I remember like maybe two, three years ago, I was, there was some like business challenge I was facing and it was just like keeping me up all night. And I remember going on the internet, contacting someone and being like, can I, can I speak to you about this? And it's because I'm looking for a trained professional like that can coach me through my thought processes and what you've described is so interesting to me because you said two things the first thing you said is therapy in essence is like a pursuit of connection with someone and then the second thing you said is about how nature is therapy these are all things that humans knew very well in our natural life

10 000 years ago man look i studied archaeology you don't gotta tell me that we've become more disenfranchised over time because i know that shit isn't that funny that therapy is just being more human oh i i also think look we just want to we want to be heard man we we look for soul we all look for soul in other people we want to know that soul exists we want to justify our soul all look for soul in other people. We want to know that soul exists. We want to justify our soul by looking for soul in other people. And when you find people with soul, you want to hang on to people with soul. That's what we do. You know, and I think when you're bearing your soul, especially in a sort of therapy environment, you want someone to to pick it up and go god i see this thing man yeah i see it i did something like this so i mean for me it took me a while finding a therapist that was um that was willing

to be hands-on you know there's this sort of hands-off approach to a lot of um you know mental health work just in general and i i just i can't do that man i need someone like you know in a sort of similar way to this is two people sitting down going god man yeah for sure if therapy is is therefore connection then the thing that drives us to therapy must be disconnection a feeling of disconnection of course well that disconnection could be anything disconnection from nature from people from life from purpose whatever yeah it's it's you know you become afraid of your own soul being too disconnected from from everything around you or that or that you're that you feel so entirely alone or unique that that no one else really understands you is a hard thing. So, so when you go into therapy as an example and someone goes,

yeah, dude, I hear you, you know, but then if the, if the fucking alarm rings and they go, your hours up. Okay.

That to me, that's disconnection. That's just connection. Cause then it feels like a monetary exchange. I'm like, I don't want that. All right. Okay.

Have I done two? Oh yeah. That's the other one. Okay. Haven't I done two? Oh, yeah, that's the other one. Okay. How could you be more authentically you by Fern Cotton? Is that pronounced correctly? Yeah, nailed it. Perfect.

How could I be more authentically you? I mean, I think stuff more like this. I got to be less afraid of people going, wow. He said, what? I just don't care anymore. I'm like, dude, I'm 30. I lived a lot of that anxiety shit in my 20s. And I truly believe that your 20s are meant to be a petri dish for mistake

that you're supposed to learn lessons from and go into your 30s and be better at. And I don't know. I think I am practicing authenticity in a way, but I think it's complicated because I don't know if a life in entertainment, people actually seek authenticity, which is something I'm dealing with. And I think for acting, it's also a real dilemma because the more you show an authentic version of yourself, the harder it can be for people to suspend that and see you as a character,

which is something I'm sort of sitting down and having a conversation with myself about. But I'm not going to control what other people think, and I think I am practicing authenticity in very many ways. How could I be more authentically me? Stand on my ground ground set my boundaries you know recognizing my own bottom line behaviors before i you know stumble into that shit have you ever felt the cost of authenticity of inauthenticity of inauthenticity yeah what is the cost in your view the personal toll exposure

if you're exposed to be a fraudster yeah if you're exposed to be a sort of snake oil salesman that can be quite embarrassing um in inauthenticity can also get you into a place where you actually don't have the skill set to perform whatever you're trying to perform but i also think inauthenticity or feelings of inauthenticity are a natural part of of courage you're going to doubt yourself a little bit before you go into anything and i i don't know i always find my most effective uh means of surviving anything is just kind of being thrown into the fire and being like all right i'm here what are we doing let's go here we go if i can never stitch up james what what is the belief that you hold that most people disagree with you on so many in fact yeah that's great man that's good um the first one i'm gonna say is what's

the thing that most people disagree with me on trying to decide between i'm gonna say i'm gonna say the point about manifestation um i think this is super controversial because anything that gives centers people on a sense of personal responsibility is typically not well received like people don't love the concept of personal responsibility obviously there's lots of nuance to this but i would say that when the way that society and culture and instagram have described the process of manifestation is largely bullshit um and i think that manifest like knowing the like the example i always give is getting in the car and setting the sat nav is of course important because if i just drove without direction i'd be lost but if i don't drive i'm also just sat in my garage with a sat nav set

all day um i don't think you can just manifest your your yourself your way there in life i think luck plays a huge role circumstance plays a huge role where you live if i was still in botswana there's not going to be a diary of a ceo interviewing you today right maybe if my if my mom hadn't met my dad so there's circumstance there's luck there is will there is hard work there is trauma there there is will, there is hard work, there is trauma, there's conviction. And then there is also an importance to know the direction you're going in. But I think manifestation as an idea is oversold because it makes life easy and comfortable. And it also obfuscates us of the responsibility of work and personal responsibility. I think it is. I think it's absurd to pursue comfort.

Absurd. In anything you do. I think at some point or another when your hands are on the wheel in this car with the sat-nav, you're going to have to fucking drive. And if the sat-nav goes out, okay man, you're still behind the wheel driving a fucking vehicle.

I think you also have to really strongly believe in yourself, really strongly believe in yourself, because there's a lot of things that people love gatekeeping shit. It's crazy. Everyone loves it, especially on the internet. They love gatekeeping. It's like the first thing you're going to interact with

when you jump into something new. People are going to go, not that guy. You know, weren't you doing this? Or, ah, don't do it. Don't talk about that. Don't do this. People love gatekeeping, which is so funny because the idea that we have to be

like these incredibly specialized, needle fine, like kind of people is ridiculous. You know, I try everything, go into it boldly, but you got to believe in your success and you have to take accountability. Have you struggled with that idea of being labeled as something? Oh, of course.

You know, there's people listening to this now who are like a lawyer or they are whatever, right? And they want, they have this passion for something else. It could be photography like you, but they're a lawyer. Their bio says lawyer, their LinkedIn says lawyer. And the resistance resistance the social resistance but also the psychological resistance of that that label is creating keeps them confined

in a way that is not fulfilling or conducive with a happier life so breaking out of those labels when you're a you know a star from such a young age you get your label super early. Yeah. Cole, you are an actor. Mm-hmm. And there are many ways. A child star is what I'm called quite often. Yeah. Which, okay. But dude, I mean, look, anyone that doesn't think outside of terms of labels, that's just useless to me. I gotta be real.

Like anyone that cannot find a deeper humanity in whatever kind of person they're sitting across at a table is probably a pretty useless person to talk to in my opinion um i think labels can be difficult and and also helpful in very many ways let's say you're a lawyer yeah man make that money on that on that label sure make that money on that label and then surround yourself with the people that don't see you as this is my lawyer friend you know because you don't need that many people you need a round table of people that are going to be like yeah that's cole cool wow what a renaissance human that guy is you know that's what you really want people to say oh man what a good person that person is you know that's great the label thing can be difficult but i think it's useless to think

like that i i think anyone that goes wow you know this anything outside of human you know is silly and i know this sounds a bit woo woo and pretentious and cause it doesn't be like, don't label me. But, um, I think it's true. I, I, I don't think thinking in terms of labeling is useful in the slightest, in the slightest. And I would like to think at the end of all of our lives, we've, we've, we've surrounded ourselves with, you know, a rich enough body of experience to go. Yeah, man, I tried blacksmithing for a period of time. Yeah, dude, I crafted a little necklace. I was a silversmith for about a year and I tried that shit out and it went really well. And I think people are going to try and gatekeep you. But I think what I mean is that you're always going to have to fight against

some sort of label, regardless of what it is. And if there's a bouncer at the door gate keeping you from getting inside the club, guarantee you that there's a fucking side entrance. Guarantee you. And you gotta fight your way to get there, man. I'm a firm believer in that. And you have to also recognize

the kind of restrictions that are being put on you, but I think you always got to fight for yourself. If you don't fight for yourself, legitimately no one else is going to. Earlier on, you said something to me. You said, have I ever, you said, have I ever sort of hypothetically played out the scenario that the, that person in my life, my mother might not be here and sure. Reflecting upon that being the last conversation i'd had with her how would i feel i've got two pictures here what are the words unsaid to this individual that's my father and that could be my brother or myself i have no idea

what are the words that are not said to that individual? You were at the exact place that you were supposed to be right when you were supposed to be there. For sure. My father was 27 when he had two identical twin boys. That's big. You know, I'm 30. I can't imagine having two identical twins i'm sorry to expose you pop but he immediately got a vasectomy right after he found out he was having two twins i just find that hilarious that's my favorite story about him um he was in italy at the time i'd say man what is your hair routine it's looking great uh he looks like a stud in that photo yeah he's this is a stud photo. For sure. Good job, Pop.

You're at the exact place you need to be right when you're supposed to be there. And whatever happens in the following years are all the lessons that you need to take for the future of your life. But every step of the way, you've been exactly where you're supposed to be. For sure. The words unsaid to this person.

It's funny. I was thinking about writing that in this journal. What would you say to your childhood self? That's funny. This kid, um, this is me on the left. Dylan on the right.

Um, This is me on the left, Dylan on the right. I wouldn't want to condition this kid at all. I see a kid that's so present in this moment. And I've had this dilemma because I have some step-siblings. And I find myself wanting to ask them, like, hey, you've been thinking about college. Hey, what are you thinking about in the future? I think I'd probably just talk to this kid about hippos or platypus or some fun shit,

you know, Pokemon, whatever it was. I don't think it's wise to put the future or past tense thinking of an adult onto a child. And I think it's your responsibility as an adult who loves a child to encourage that lantern consciousness and that presentedness for as long as you can and as far as you can and anything that takes them away from that presentedness should be the enemy of your life in that child's life isn't that what happened to you yeah it is it is and that was the perfect lesson I needed to know for my eventual children. What about Dylan? My brother and I have made it this far and have been as okay as we have become because we did not feel lonely. We always had each other as a frame of reference to grow up and alongside.

And I think I'm incredibly privileged for that. And he is too. We thankfully got to go through everything we went through alongside each other. And I think that's built him into the exact kind of person he's supposed to be and me as well. And I really am living my life now in a place where I don't look back with regrets or anger or, or pain or anything like that. So I don't know. I'd probably kick his ass, honestly, if I'm thinking about it now. I'd probably smile at myself and then beat the hell out of Dylan. And I'd have reach advantage and stuff too. It'd be great.

Just throw him by his legs like Bowser. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. The question that's been left for you. You have one last piece of work to do. What is that piece of work and why? If I had children, make sure that they were okay. Try and make sure that they were okay. Try and make sure, ensure

that whatever I could do as my last action would create more easiness for them. Because life is going to roll over you regardless. Regardless of how easy you've had it. I would try to have one last thing said or done that helped them in the future. You went straight to children. Yeah.

And if I was a grandfather, I would take all of my cash and convert it into some sort of gold doubloon. And I would bury that shit. I'm not telling you where. But I would send them on the greatest treasure hunt ever. I mean, really give them one thing. That they said, God, Grandpa was insane.

But what a story he gave us. You know? Goonie style. I want to be the guy that like sends his grandkids i'm like oh grandpa cole was just insane man the man he was a wacky guy he found the treasure i wouldn't make it too hard you know but i'd want them to go someplace sounds like a great movie plot yeah maybe maybe they'll write it who knows grandfather cole work is interesting that's a really interesting question because I hope I'm not working.

Really? I don't like, I hope I don't see it as work. Okay. You don't see photography as work? No, no. I don't see acting, like the stuff I feel really passionate about as work either. Have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly? No. I think it'll be fun. Cole, thank you. Yeah. a huge honor and tremendously valuable for for me more than i could probably tell you but meeting people like you that have gone through unique life experiences and are able to look back

introspectively and sort of um historically and depict that in such a self-aware honest vulnerable way is the very reason i started doing this and the very reason i continue to do it um so i thank you because it's a real i feel like you've um i feel like i feel like i owe you something for being and this is how i always feel for all of the lessons i now for the rest of my life get to go on with from your journey and um as a fan of yours now both your art and your photography i guess are the same thing you're but but just for semantics um i'm gonna follow i'm gonna continue to follow you with a renewed perspective on on your humility your talent and your humanity well

thank you and by the way um every conversation like this we trade just as much for anyone that's empathetic which you seem to be um you trade just as much. For anyone that's empathetic, which you seem to be, you trade just as much. This is the beauty. You and I were both August 1992 from very different backgrounds, and yet we can still sit around a round table and go, man, I know the feelings of what you've gone through, even though you and I are very different people.

And I think that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of that connection I've been talking about. I think empathy is the currency of all this stuff. And you've asked some really wonderful questions, and I'm glad that I was able to answer in a way that hopefully brought out something. But thank you again. Thank you for having me.

That was really wonderful. Thank you.