The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Corrupt Police Officer: I Arrested Drug Dealers, Then Sold Their Drugs! There’s Massive Corruption Going On Today! - Mike Dowd

Starting point is 00:00:00 I've never heard a story like this in my life The story of drug trafficking bribery kidnapping and even murder which earns you the nickname of America's dirtiest cop and I want to know Everything okay, but let's just be clear if you choose to have a conversation with me about this You're gonna hear things that you won't like Let me just say this being a New York cop was the greatest job in the world, but it's not built for somebody to come in and be the knight in shining armor. You're working minimum wage. Civilians are against you and you're directly told not to make drug arrests.

Starting point is 00:00:34 Why? Oh, because they had a budget to manage and the average amount of overtime for one crack arrest was 18 hours. So that leads to the streets becoming unwieldy. So what happens is a guy like me, who's entrepreneurial spirit, shows up and says, there's a way to control this. I can't arrest them, so I tax them. And that escalated.

Starting point is 00:00:53 Greed is powerful, brother. But what happens then? You become God. I was making more than the president of the United States by protecting one of the largest drug trafficking organizations in New York. But I was losing control, and I became the face of New York City's corruption problem.

Starting point is 00:01:06 People want to be dead. And then in 1992, you were arrested and you admitted to hundreds of crimes. But what about your family at this point? You know, that was tough. They're really special people. Mike, we spoke to your parents. Do you want to see what they said? I'm Carol Dowd and I'm Michael Dowd's mother.

Starting point is 00:01:33 I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favour and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favour and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this,

Starting point is 00:02:07 that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode. Mike, when people do interviews with you, they often describe you as New York's dirtiest cop. And I watched that over and over again in your interviews. And I wondered as I watched people calling you New York's dirtiest cop, how that makes you feel? Not good. Yeah. And that's a touchy subject.

Starting point is 00:02:37 But I accept it. And I've turned it into something where I'm able to maybe chaperone an audience because of it. But it's not nice to hear that. More importantly, it's not nice for your parents to hear something like that. And thank God they're still alive. But it's not the happy day when your mother sees your name on the front page of the newspaper, I'll tell you that, and for nothing good. And how many crimes did you commit while you were a New York cop?

Starting point is 00:03:07 So it may have been thousands because every time I did something that was inappropriate. So you got to step back for a second. Every time a police officer puts on his badge and swears that oath and takes the job on, he's basically taking a risk on everything he does that can end them up in jail, everything. And that's really a very difficult position to be in. Everything you do legitimately can end you up being sanctioned or arrested. So I would suggest basically anything I did or any interaction I did could have been considered with some kind of criminal intent.

Starting point is 00:03:45 And still on the top line, just painting the picture here, what are the, before we get into the detail, what are the variety of crimes that you committed as a New York police officer? So every time you take something from somebody, money, cash, drugs, personal property, let's say, it's basically a robbery, basically, because you have a gun on your hip and you're using a position of power. So you would start with robbery, extortion, burglary, when you went into someone's home

Starting point is 00:04:16 and came out with a product. I mean, I've taken tapes from, you know, back in the day, you know, those VCR tapes, there was a lot of good stuff in some VCR tapes. I mean, we can get a little humorous here, but the reality was, you know, back in the day, you know, those VCR tapes, there was a lot of good stuff in some VCR tapes. I mean, we can get a little humorous here, but the reality was, you know, some guy's porn collection might be missing. I mean, these are the things that you ran into. Their cash, their gold coins, you know, whatever was...

Starting point is 00:04:37 When someone's dead, it's really hard for them to complain about what's missing. So you know, it's ironic, it's stupid, and it's debauchery at the same time. So you cross all the lines of decorum when you do something like that. Did you steal someone's porn collection? Maybe. Really? It could have been. They were dead.

Starting point is 00:04:54 They were dead? They were dead. They couldn't use it anymore. I mean, they were smoking crack, okay? So I'm in the 94th Precinct in Brooklyn now, which is Williamsburg, where you say was a lovely place. And it was. It was becoming lovely when they started opening up some studios.

Starting point is 00:05:12 We got a call for a dead on arrival. Someone was murdered. So we show up and the guy is sitting in his couch with a knife in his side. You walk into his home and there's a guy on his couch like this sitting there with a hole in his side with the knife still in it. He's bled out. And the place looked like there was a party that didn't stop. So while there, I'm sitting around waiting and waiting for the boss to show up and the

Starting point is 00:05:38 squad to show up, the detective squad to show up. And I'm looking around rummaging a little bit, like looking for the evidence of the crime scene. And sure enough, I hit the button on the VCR and there's a pawns. They've got the pawn on the fucking TV. So I'm saying, OK, he's dead. There's crack evidence of – there was no crack there, by the way. It was all gone.

Starting point is 00:05:58 No one leaves crack behind. The cigarette smokes were – the ashes were piled out of the ashtrays. And there's beer bottles everywhere. So it's July. It's 100 degrees, and this apartment has no air conditioning in it. So what does any self-respecting 20-something-year-old man want at this point? Not the porn, per se, but the beer. So I'm looking around, every beer bottle is empty.

Starting point is 00:06:24 And right below the apartment is a bodega, right below it. Like, upstairs is the dead guy, and downstairs is the bodega. So we go downstairs, and we tell the guy, listen, we're going to be upstairs for a couple hours. He hands us a six pack of Coars Light. You can't make the story up. We walk in, me and my partner, Tom, and in comes the detective.

Starting point is 00:06:43 We each have a beer, we're sitting there, bullshit, and waiting for the boss to show up. Boss walks in. She looks around. She goes, I want every beer bottle in here printed. She says, and in the refrigerator. Now, I just put the fucking six pack in the refrigerator. But she walked in.

Starting point is 00:07:02 So I'm going, now picture this. They know I'm corrupt, okay, but they can't prove it. I'm on what you would call secret probation, even though I'm not on probation. They're watching me like a hawk. Now I got a detective who's looking at me like, we just had a beer. The f—ing fingerprints are inside the refrigeratorf—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f—f And my fingerprints are on the bottles in the refrigerator. She looks at me, she goes, of course it's you. She goes, of all the people in this fucking police department, it would be your fingerprints

Starting point is 00:07:58 inside the refrigerator on a cause light bottle at a homicide scene. And there's only four homicides in this precinct this year, and you've been on three of them. You've been at the scene of three of them. So I go, yeah, it doesn't look too good, does it, son? She goes, I'm going to go downstairs. I'm going to go to my car, and I'm going to make a phone call. What do I got to do? I said, get rid of that that and don't do it again.

Starting point is 00:08:27 Did you steal the porn collection? Yes, it was already in the car. It was already in the car? I already had it. I mean, that's what he had, a knife in his belly and a porn collection. You didn't steal the knife? No, I couldn't, there was evidence. But you put his porn collection in your car?

Starting point is 00:08:41 Yeah. Wow. And you do originally train to become an accountant and drop out because of a woman, right? Yes. And you wanted to follow her. So you end up joining the police academy in 1982, 21 years old. Right.

Starting point is 00:08:54 And when you joined the police academy, did you do it because you wanted to be a police officer and because you wanted to serve and defend? No, that's not why I joined. I joined because I wanted a job. Because you wanted to serve and defend? No. That's not why I joined. Why did you join? I joined because I wanted a job. Because you wanted a job. And so when you stood there and took that oath, did you mean it? I, you know, no. I mean, I guess so the answer to, so if you say no, that means that you have no concern

Starting point is 00:09:21 or care. So it was an immature yes. So you take that oath, you don't really mean it? I'm embarrassed if I say I want to be truthful, because I don't I don't like to lie. I felt pride when I said it. Is that? So I felt full of pride when I said it. And as part of your training to become a police officer, you do some integrity training. Yes, some like ethics training to become a police officer, you do some integrity training. Yes. Some like ethics training to make sure that police officers are like straight and narrow and understand.

Starting point is 00:09:49 So one of the things I would suggest on that statement or that whole genre is it wasn't necessarily, we weren't necessarily trained on integrity or ethics. We were trained on this is what would happen to you if. Don't take $5 from a motorist or $50 from a motorist because that will lead to one, you being arrested and being all over the news and then all the cops are going to hate you. Like it was never really explained to you as a student in the academy, the depth of the lack of integrity and what you're actually affecting.

Starting point is 00:10:25 Okay. But like the fundamental issue if we don't trust law enforcement and the downstream consequences. Thanks for saying it that way. Because it destroys the very fabric of what people trust in law enforcement. Because when you need help, you got to call somebody and the person that shows up has to be trustworthy. Now, I would argue, because I robbed money from drug dealers and even their drugs, you can still trust me, right?

Starting point is 00:10:50 That's what I would argue. Because if you're not doing those things, essentially, you're safe with me and I will give you the best police service that you ever asked for and probably go above and beyond to help you. There was some kind of comment made at the end of your training by an internal affairs academy instructor, which basically said to be successful as a cop, don't follow these rules, the ethics rules that you were just given.

Starting point is 00:11:16 So yes, so that wasn't the internal affairs officer that said that. That would be your academy instructor. Okay. Yeah. Ironic. He said to me, us in the academy class, if you live by the rules that these guys espouse internal affairs, you'll never make a successful company. Just cover your ass. That would be his, that was his words.

Starting point is 00:11:38 Just cover your ass. What do they mean by that? Always have a reason, always have an excuse? Basically, you hit it on the head. If you have a partner, be on the same page. So let's say something was handled inappropriately. Maybe there was some excessive force used, which I'm not fond of and nor am I in favor of.

Starting point is 00:11:59 But there may be times where you might have given an extra elbow. It happens. You're mad, you spit in my face, I put the cuffs on you, I give you a shot. Do you hit the door on the way in? Sometimes. So as long as your partner and you have the story straight, you can pretty much, without these cameras today, get away with most things that are not unreasonable. And the police all kind of agree that they won't snitch on each other.

Starting point is 00:12:27 That's the general rule. And it's called, I read this term, the blue wall of silence. Yes, right. So let's just be clear. The first person that's going to snitch on you is going to be a cop, okay? However, more chances than not, they try not not to and that's just the facts because

Starting point is 00:12:49 What cop wants to go out on patrol? Knowing that if something goes down and it goes a little sideways from where it's supposed to go Let's say you and I were working together and you just told on me last week and now someone's pummeling you to death in the street I have a chance to help you or I can call for backup and wait. So you don't want that relationship with me, right? I mean, we're trying to get home tonight. So it really puts people in a very precarious position.

Starting point is 00:13:18 Because you need those other cops for your own personal survival. Correct. So you don't want to be snitching on other cops. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's really not built, that position in this society is not built for somebody to come in and be the knight in shining armor and say, listen, Officer Dowd, that was not appropriate. I'm going to have to report you right now.

Starting point is 00:13:41 Before he goes to report me, I'm going to either bludgeon him to death because now he's taking my livelihood away. He's taking the food off the table of my family. You don't look at it as like you're getting a guy in trouble. You look at it as you're taking a career, a livelihood, incarceration. I mean, these are the things that can happen. Like I said, the minute you put that badge on, and let's get to this, is the minute that the job is looking to take something from you.

Starting point is 00:14:04 But think about that. Mechanic goes to work and they say, can you get six cars done today? I'll try. You got six, it is a bonus for you at the end of the day. A cop goes to work and they're looking to screw him the whole time. Who's looking to screw him? The department and the civilians. I didn't like the way he handled me.

Starting point is 00:14:23 They make a complaint. Your boss goes, I didn't like the way he handled me. They make a complaint. Your boss goes, I got the people complaining and doubt I'm gonna have to give you a shit assignment or I'm gonna have to change your assignment. I mean, the whole time, someone's against you. They're trying to find some kind of chink in your arm or something you did wrong. Yeah, and it's really to cover their ass.

Starting point is 00:14:41 Back to the beginning. It's a very, very difficult position. A fireman goes to work. You know what they do? They save lives. They put out fires. They eat a good meal. They have a great gym.

Starting point is 00:14:51 No one's in there going, they have rules, decorum, but no one's going, we're looking to take you for this. We're looking to stripe you for that. Civilians aren't walking into a firehouse and going, I didn't like the way that truck backed out and the siren blasted and hurt my ears. They're going, yay, they're going to save someone's life. A cop shows up on the scene, he's going to give me a ticket. He's going to arrest my husband. My husband beat me and he doesn't believe me. I mean, it's just, it's such a, it's such a grating position to be in.

Starting point is 00:15:19 When we're thinking about the factors, the environmental factors that led you to make the decisions that you made, one of the big factors that I was looking into at the time was there was obviously this crack epidemic, but then it also seemed like the police at the time didn't actually want you to arrest people. Yes, that's correct. I saw some crazy stat,

Starting point is 00:15:39 which I'm sure you'll be able to account for me, but in the sort of decade that you were a police officer, you didn't do that many arrests. No. 43. You did what? 43 arrests. You did 43 arrests in how many years? Well, I mean, total 10 years, but yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:54 So not all of that was patrol, but yeah. So it doesn't matter. I mean, I can make 43 arrests in a month, okay, if I really wanted to. If you weren't corrupt at that time, how many arrests do you think you probably should have made in those 10 years based on the crimes that you observed? 500. Okay. So about 90% of the things you should have arrested someone for you didn't?

Starting point is 00:16:12 Correct. Okay. And why weren't you making more arrests? You couldn't keep the police on patrol if they were making arrests. They were clogging up the system. The system would get so jammed up, the average amount of overtime for one crack arrest was 18 hours.

Starting point is 00:16:29 You would be paid for that? Paid time and a half. Okay, so then the department has to pay you more money if you do an arrest. And then process the arrest, and they all get processed through the correction system, and they all get processed through the court system. I mean, you're talking 150,000 arrests a year

Starting point is 00:16:40 in Brooklyn alone. That's a lot of numbers if you just keep cranking at it, and everybody's getting 18 hours overtime per arrest. And who's paying for all these arrests at the end of the day? The city. The city's paying. So the city don't want you to be arresting people? Because they got a budget to manage.

Starting point is 00:16:53 Were you ever directly told to stop arresting these people? Yes. Yes. How's this? You really didn't make a dent on it, and now there's two men off patrol. And then your next assignment was the desk. You're making arrests causing a problem.

Starting point is 00:17:12 The city's paying for it, there's less police available, and the robberies, the murders, and the rapes in those communities were extremely high. They'd rather have themselves crack than people getting robbed and raped and murdered. Does that make sense? Of course it does. Yeah, so it's all incentives. I think if you look at any system, you'll understand why people behave they do, if you understand the incentive structure. And in your case, if you made more arrests of criminals, then the city would have both a bill, because they had to pay cops overtime to take care of the admin work,

Starting point is 00:17:46 but also they're going to have more cops off the street, which could also lead to more crime. More crime. More crime. Yes. So you were incentivized not to arrest people. Correct. Okay.

Starting point is 00:17:55 So what does that lead to? That leads to the streets becoming unwielding. You're like, there's no control. So what happens is a guy like me whose entrepreneurial spirit shows up and says there's a way to control this. I tax these people or arrest them, one of the two, and I can't arrest them so I tax them. And let's talk about that first experience of you taxing the first person, which I think was in And let's talk about that first experience of you taxing the first person, which I think was in 1983.

Starting point is 00:18:28 Your starting salary when you joined the police was $18,000 a year, roughly. Yes. And you pulled someone over in 1983. Yes. And that's the first time... That's the first time there was a tax levy. That was the first time you committed a crime, I guess, as a police officer. No, but the first time that I committed an actual money crime, I would say. How old are you at that point in 83?

Starting point is 00:18:52 23, 24? Yeah. And that was basically, we called it a Puerto Rican mystery back then. I know that I'm famous for saying that and people are like, ah, listen, that's what they called it, right? Because the guy was from Puerto Rico, and he had no paperwork, no license or anything like that. And he just bought the car.

Starting point is 00:19:07 You'd pulled him over? Pulled him over, no plates. No plates, right. You just came here from Puerto Rico, you got a stack of hundreds in your bag and I'm looking, I'm saying, you know, you got like $2,000 worth of tickets and I'm supposed to take your car from you. I said, but you know, I like lobster. Leave me enough money for a lobster lunch, this whole thing can go away.

Starting point is 00:19:27 So the kid was quick on his feet. He left a couple hundred bucks under my briefcase on the back seat. He got out and I said, I don't want to ever see you again, unless you got some more lobster lunch money later. Of course, I didn't say that. And of course, I left that scene with the money and I was very uncomfortable because it was the first time I actually solicited something like that. And of course, I left that scene with the money and I was very uncomfortable, because it was the first time I actually solicited something like that. But it was sort of a, it's almost like I won something.

Starting point is 00:19:52 As a cop, one of the things we saw in movies back then is cops getting like sexual favors because they're cops. Did that happen? I would say it was available and I've took some advantage of it, but there was some. There was some. I mean, that's like, you're driving by in a police car and a girl says, hello, and you go fuck her. Is that like a benefit of the job or is that your promiscuity? Did you ever do that while working? Yes. That's my biggest sin in the world. In the car?

Starting point is 00:20:30 Yes. Wow. It's not just in movies. The light of the siren only went off once. Really? That was from the blowjob. It wasn't from the... The girl's ass hit the fucking buzzer.

Starting point is 00:20:44 Like, what the fuck? The big back. It was three in the morning. You hit the blowjob. It wasn't from the... Yeah, the girl's ass hit the fucking buzzer. I'm like, what the fuck? The big back. It was three in the morning. You hit the buzzer. I'm in the back of a courtyard of a nine story building. Your boss, your sergeant, around that time, did he know that you were doing things like this? Not then.

Starting point is 00:21:01 No. No. But shortly thereafter, there would be a situation where my sergeant, it was a murder scene, dead kid, 20-year-old shot in the head and there was a marijuana spot. There's money, there's drugs. I mean, listen, it's overwhelming when you'll come across these things and there's a dead body there and you're entrusted to handle all this stuff and you're broke. So I took a little thin stack of hundreds and put it in my pocket.

Starting point is 00:21:29 Turned out it was like 600 bucks. And as the crime scene was being processed in walks my sergeant, Sergeant James Otto. He says, is this it? Like two, three pounds of marijuana, which is like this much marijuana. It's a big pile of shit. And I don't know, it was like $1,500 in cash stacked all over here. He goes, is this it? I go, yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:51 But I felt like he was asking me too much. So well, I did have this and I take out a thin stack of hundreds. And he goes, oh, anything else? I go, no, that's it. I said, I didn't want it to get full of blood. Later on that night, I run into him at a choir practice, they would call it. He went out bullshitting, having a couple beers. I said, let me ask you a question.

Starting point is 00:22:13 What if, and I say, I come across money. He said, what if I kept that 600? He goes, I was annoyed that you gave it to me. Just picture the moment. You're 20 something years old. You're broke. You're coming to work. You're surviving.

Starting point is 00:22:29 You're in survival mode. You're out having a couple of beers with your buddies and your boss, who's got 20 years on the job at this point, so he actually could retire if he wanted to, and he says to you, if I don't see it, it's yours. He says, but let me know so you can throw me something later on. It was like the whole vision of this thing changed at that moment. He's basically saying, if you get there, it's yours. Take what you can before I get there, because I don't want to witness it,

Starting point is 00:22:59 because I don't want to have to witness it. Was he taking money? Well, he wouldn't. He'd say no. But clearly, he was indicating that it's good, just don't let me see it. When you reflect on that scene that you arrived at, you said there was a 20 year old man that was dead.

Starting point is 00:23:14 Yeah. Did seeing those scenes ever bother you? Initially, my first DOA was my first day. A guy jumped off a building and landed on his head. That bothered me because the family showed up. It was horrific. And I got to hold the family back and don't touch him because he could be murdered. We don't know. We don't know why he's dead.

Starting point is 00:23:38 It's a crime scene, essentially. I began to see people shot, stabbed. You have a total disconnect, like really quickly. The first shooting I was at was during a midnight shift and the guys were doing a burglary of a car, they were stealing tires and tire irons. I said, hey, we should stop these guys. My buddy Sal's like, nah, my partner, nah, let them go. It's late.

Starting point is 00:24:03 Someone flags us down, hey, this guy's trying to steal tires off a car. So now I said, look, we got civilians complaining about the same people that we should have just tossed. Turn around, go back about two or three blocks, guy's dead in the street. And I see a tire iron. So I said to the people, were they carrying a jacket or a tire on it? And they go, yeah, they point over to the street where the tire on it was, taking the wheels off a car.

Starting point is 00:24:33 This guy could have shot us. Like he's dead, it could have been us, or if we did toss this guy, he could not be dead. So when you come that close to death itself, your survival instincts give you the ability to disconnect fairly quickly from those types of scenes. Did you ever show up to a scene when you saw someone dead or dying and feel sad? Yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:04 Yeah. Yeah, A couple of times. More important, one that strikes me a lot, I was talking to the guy who was going out. I knew he was going to die. He was stabbed in the stomach and he's looking at me and he goes, I'm getting cold. I go, yeah, it's going to be okay. He says, I'm getting cold, officer. I said, are you going to be okay? We're going to get you to the hospital. The ambulance showed up like five minutes later. He was

Starting point is 00:25:28 barely conscious when he got in the ambulance and he wasn't going to make it. And he died. And that was sad because I couldn't do anything for him. You saw a lot of stuff. Why did that affect you? I felt bad because I was talking to him, knowing he's going to die. One other time I felt really bad, some guy who was, I guess he was getting laid, young guy, big, heavy set, strong, powerful black guy. His wife is like, I looked at her, she goes, I'm like, I knew, I could tell it was a sexual thing.

Starting point is 00:26:03 They had sex. And the fucking guy was like 35 years old. And he was either dead or dying. He had a heart attack. And I wanted to give him CPR. But it would have been my first actual CPR case, you know. And the two cops I was working with going, no, don't worry about it. Go get the ambulance.

Starting point is 00:26:26 Don't worry about it. Yeah, he's going to be OK. Don't worry about it. Go get the ambulance. I'm like, shouldn't we do CPR? No, no, no. You go outside. I was a kid.

Starting point is 00:26:40 I was the rookie. And these two old timers were like, don't worry about it. It's going to be all right. Go outside and direct the ambulance in. Like two minutes later, the ambulance showed up. They started CPR on the guy and he died. To not render aid when you think you can make a difference, that hurts. Why did they tell you not to render aid, Tim?

Starting point is 00:26:58 I don't know. I don't know why. They didn't tell me why. And it was very disheartening because I think I could have helped save the guy. But what am I going to do? Wrestle with these guys? They're in charge. Senior cop on the scene is in charge. At some point you started actually dealing drugs. How did you start getting into drugs? When was that eureka moment that you realized that

Starting point is 00:27:21 you could sell drugs? My partner at the time took some home out of the blue, and he came back and handed me a couple hundred dollars one day. I said, what's that for? He goes, that shit we've been throwing out is cocaine. We ain't throwing it out no more. I got somebody that wants it. So he's bringing me cash.

Starting point is 00:27:36 I was like, OK, well, it's ain't that bad. For me, it was like, I didn't see it. I didn't do it. So I was OK with it. And then it was like I didn't see it, I didn't do it, so I was okay with it. And then it becomes like anything else, it softens the blow for the next step. And eventually, I would lead to be just whatever dope I found, I would take and if I couldn't find it, I'd see one of the drug dealers and say, give me something or give me something for discount.

Starting point is 00:28:02 I mean, that's, it becomes, you become a market maker at that point. Did you stop buying it to sell it? At some points I started buying it, yeah. How bad did it get with the drug dealing when you were a cop? Because it almost sounds like you've at this point given up being a cop enforcing the law. It's a dichotomy, right? Because I put the uniform on, I go to work. And if you are not in the drug business, you're going to get a good police officer.

Starting point is 00:28:26 From my perspective, you may never say that. You may never agree with it. But if you had a car accident and you needed a police officer to take the report, bring you to a hospital, I would do all the arrangements, do the best I could. If you had gotten robbed, I would do the report. I'd take you to a hospital if you were injured. Whatever it is, I mean, I responded like a proper police officer. But if you were in the drug business, you were mine.

Starting point is 00:28:49 You were mine. Simple. I mean, how else can I say it? What do you mean by you were mine? You were mine. I owned you. In what regard? In every regard.

Starting point is 00:29:02 Whatever I wanted, you were mine. You could take their drugs. Whatever I wanted. Your car if I wanted it. Did you ever take someone's car? I didn't have to. A guy gave me one. What else?

Starting point is 00:29:14 Whatever. Coats, jackets, gold, whatever. Chains. What was your biggest heist as a police officer? They weren't that large. I'd say 40 to 50,000 at one time, which back then was good money. You're talking about two years salary. Yeah, if you're on like 20, 30,000 dollars, whatever is your salary, getting 40,000 is

Starting point is 00:29:36 Yeah, double my salary, triple my salary that year. Things like that come along. So there was opportunities. So you would call that a score, right, opposed to an ongoing thing. Because like, boom, it's there. It's a one hit and wonder and it's over. Every job in East New York, nine out of 10 was involved with drugs. You're exposed to it.

Starting point is 00:30:00 It's your choice on how you deal with it. You're the boss. You are the boss. You show up, you're the boss. Were your colleagues around you doing the same? The accurate answer is somewhere. The best description is you would never know. You would never know.

Starting point is 00:30:20 I might because I know what's going on, but if you were a cop that was not involved, you would never know. I might because I know what's going on. But if you were a cop that was not involved, you would never know. So the good cops wouldn't know that it was happening? They wouldn't know. Because I'm not going to tell you. Now, if you happen to say something to me that you, hey, wait a minute, something went down there, I'd say, and what do you want to do about it? You want in? I'll tell you a funny story. We go to the scene.

Starting point is 00:30:47 I don't want to describe it because it's lengthy. Long story short, the cops show up. We're the cops. But the cops show up behind us. And they go, oh, that's Dowd and his partner. Leave them alone. And they turn around and they walk away. So the officers knew, I don't want to see what they're doing because then I'm culpable or responsible

Starting point is 00:31:06 for what they're doing. And that's how it became. And what were you doing in that scene? Cocaine and heroin. My partner wanted the guns. I said, what are you going to do with the guns? There's money in this. This is money.

Starting point is 00:31:18 That's a gun. And people were dead. So the guns may be connected to the crime. So just... When you show up at a scene like that, how do you, and you arrive there, and there's guns, there's money, there's drugs, how do you get the money and the drugs without other officers seeing you?

Starting point is 00:31:34 It's funny. Like, how'd you get it out? Do you put it in the back of the police car? So one time I put it in a laundry bag, which was loaded up with heroin and cocaine, and I don't know, whatever else was in there. And I happened to be lucky. There was a row of garbage pails along this person's entranceway.

Starting point is 00:31:54 As the sergeant was walking up the stairway to investigate the scene with us to secure it and make sure that everyone was doing what they're supposed to do, I take this bag and I go like this and I put it in the garbage bag. He comes up to me, I go, Sarge, there's a guy dead in the doorway. They shot him through the eye hole. I said, there's another guy shot upstairs and there's a bunch of guns and stuff up there. I go, but there's so many cops here, I'm going to go 98, which means I'm going to

Starting point is 00:32:19 go back on patrol. He goes, good. Like, good idea. I'm like, good, we agree. So that gets me away from the scene. So now he goes up the stairs, I go back into the garbage pail, pick up the green laundry bag and put it in my car and I leave. So now I got to go to a drug dealer, get rid of it. And then you get loads of cash?

Starting point is 00:32:38 Eventually, yeah. And what do you do with the cash? In that specific case, I drove right to my drug dealing friend's place, who had an auto body, an auto sound city. They put the sound into cars. I went right to his shop. I dropped off to a dope with him, and he called his buddy that sold the heroin in the area, and so on and so forth, and that recycles back into money.

Starting point is 00:32:57 Were you ever scared? No. No. Should you have been? I should have been more cautious. Did you ever think you were going to get caught? You know, it was in the back of my mind for probably five years. Just never left.

Starting point is 00:33:14 And thus, you constantly are, your anxiety levels up, you know, your body starts to go numb. And you wonder what's wrong with me? What's wrong with you? You're living by three different lives You know, you have a wife you have a girlfriend you have drugs you're a cop you're selling drugs. You're shaking people down Everything's just fine. It's not it's never good. Do you have a wife and a girlfriend? Yeah, most most of the time And you have kids?

Starting point is 00:33:44 at that time, one. And did anybody know what you were doing at home? I would liaise that up to her. But the mink coats and the new cars and the trips around the world, you don't do them on a cop's salary. But you never said it? She knew. Enough. And did she ever give you advice about what you were doing?

Starting point is 00:34:06 Stop. That's what she said? Stop. I don't need this. I'd rather have you. Imagine that. That's a nice feeling in a way, right? I'd rather have you and sleep under a bridge. That's what she said? Yeah. Your ex-wife? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:23 And why didn't you stop? Can't. You can't? Yeah. Your ex-wife? Yeah. And why didn't you stop? Can't. You can't? You can't. You can't stop that. It's not that easy to stop that. I read the story that someone, a lieutenant, had put a complaint against you for a trivial

Starting point is 00:34:35 matter and you retaliated by reporting them to Internal Affairs for being in a drug house. And then this sort of led to a situation where you received death threats over the phone from that lieutenant. Yeah, I'm working in Coney Island. I was sent to Coney Island to get away from East New York because they knew I was hot. I mean, the story is so big and deep, it's just crazy.

Starting point is 00:34:56 The bottom line with him was, I end up in a dispute with him somehow. He's a cop. Cop, yeah. He had Mercedes Benz. 380, Mercedes Benenz, whatever it was. His license plate on the back of his car said, B. Scott. Less than a month later, about three weeks later, I'm out in Long Island and there's

Starting point is 00:35:16 the car. There's only one B. Scott, all right, in the plate. I pulled over and I said to my wife at the time, I said, get a good look at this guy. And he went up into a crack house. There was only one crack house in the whole neighborhood and that was it. He went up into it and then he came out. So I left. I went home and I spoke to my neighbor, who was my wife's uncle, who was a detective in the 102 squad, who was 28 years on the job at the time. I said, listen, I want to talk to you. He goes, what's up?

Starting point is 00:35:45 I told him the story, the scenario. And he goes, listen, Mike, anything but drugs. You got to turn them in. It was hard for me to do this because now I'm turning on a guy that I know was involved in drugs, and I know what I had done previously. So I call and turn on the fan. They were at my house in 45 minutes.

Starting point is 00:36:04 Like, hello? I mean, at my house in 45 minutes. Like, hello? I mean, at my house. I live 45 minutes from them. They were at my house in 45 minutes. They do an interview with me, long story short. They put a lineup in front of me. I picked the guy out. So later on, within a week or so, I'm getting phone calls to my house at 2, 3 in the morning.

Starting point is 00:36:23 But this is every day. It's going on every day for about a month's length of time. So finally I go, what do you want, bro? Enough is enough. I'm fucking your wife every time you go to work. I'm fucking her. Oh, really? Yeah, she gets off the train in Long Island Railroad and I pick her up.

Starting point is 00:36:42 I bring her home and I fuck her. Oh, OK. Thank you very much. I said, why don't you come by and we'll straighten it out right here, you and me. He goes, why don't I put a bullet in your fucking head while you're standing there in front of the window? So he could see you? I don't know. Did you plot to kill him? No. Why would I plot to kill this guy?

Starting point is 00:37:04 Well, because it sounds like he wants to kill you. Well, that's different now. But I didn't. Because I didn't know who it was. It took me years to figure out who it was. But in the interim, I ran into him again. I essentially arrested him without arresting him. I gave him summonses, which is an arrest in a way.

Starting point is 00:37:23 And he was so pissed off, he made a complaint against me. And at this point, he was suspended. Oh, so he was a civilian when you arrest him? He was a suspended, he was an officer on suspension. And he was suspended for being the gun in a drug case in Harlem. He was the collector in Harlem for a drug organization. It turns out— What's a collector? He was the strong man. So if you owed money to a drug organization, he went out and collected

Starting point is 00:37:51 it. Oh, okay. So he was a police officer who had a job collecting money for a drug organization in Harlem. You met a guy called Baron Perez. Yes. Who's Baron Perez? Baron Perez is the guy who owns Autosound City at the time. He was what you call a middleman in any deal in Brooklyn.

Starting point is 00:38:08 So he ran a car shop, which was a front for cocaine. He was not a front. He had been a legitimate business. But in his business would be all the dealers in Brooklyn would come in. And is that where you met La Compañia? Yes. What is La Compañia? Yes. What is La Compañia? La Compañia was a Dominican drug organization that ran small nickel and dime spots throughout the city.

Starting point is 00:38:31 Lots of them, like dozens of them. And they were basically based out of bodegas. And you were a cop at the time when you met them? Yes. And they're one of the most powerful drug organizations in New York City at the time? At the time, yes. But they were street level mostly. They had their own organisational structure, but they dealt with all the street level bodegas.

Starting point is 00:38:52 And at the time you're getting paid $600 a week as a cop? No, every two weeks. Every two weeks as a cop. So you're making $300 a week as a cop. Right. And this drug gang offer you how much money to protect them? They didn't offer me anything. I told them if they want the protection, it was $8,000 a week. Right. And this drug gang offer you how much money to protect them? They didn't offer me anything. I told them if they want the protection, it was $8,000 a week.

Starting point is 00:39:09 And what did they say when you said that? We'll pay it. So they paid you $8,000 a week, this drug gang? For the first week. And then they shorted me $700. What is shorted mean? Short. They were short $700.

Starting point is 00:39:22 OK. So they paid me $7,300 instead of instead of 8000. So I told them I need the rest of the money. The deal is a deal. And they said, we're not paying you. We're done. So then I threatened them and I shut their business down. I parked police cars in front of their business for a week and they put a hit on me. What does it mean when someone puts a hit on you as a police officer? They suggest to anybody that is willing to shoot and kill this cop, they'll pay them. How did you find out that this drug gang have put a hit on you?

Starting point is 00:39:55 Well, because Baron Perez knows everybody in the city, in the drug business, because he does their cars. He said, there's a hit on you. He said, I'll accompany you. I said, OK. I went out hit on you.î He said, ìBy LaCompania.î I said, ìOkay.î I went out that same day. I saw his car. I never met the guy in my life, but I knew his car, LaCompania, the boss. I pulled him over. He didnít know who I was. I told him, ìLicense Registration.î I just threw the papers back in his lap. I said, ìYouíre going to put

Starting point is 00:40:21 a hit on me.î He turned as wide as that pen, because now I'm standing over him and he's sitting down a little tiny Renault, looking up at me. I said, if you want to put a hit on me, why don't we clear it up right here. I'll let you get out of the car. We'll do 10 pace walk off. You turn around, I'll turn around and we'll shoot it out. Did you mean that? I meant it every word of it.

Starting point is 00:40:40 You don't say something you don't mean when you talk about guns and weapons. What if he said yes? It was on. I wasn't going to not let't mean when you talk about guns and weapons. What if he said yes? It was on. I wasn't going to not let him. Were you not scared? I'm crazy. I don't know. I didn't think of fear.

Starting point is 00:40:53 I was going to win. What did he say? No, no, no. I said, well, take the hit off. My pager went off 20 minutes later. And he said, the hit's off. I don't want to do any more business with you. There was a $700. Please leave us alone. So you got your $700 in the end.

Starting point is 00:41:09 Yeah. And that was the end of your relationship with them? With La Combinia. Correct. At some point after that, you met a guy called Adam Diaz, who is a much bigger Dominican drug dealer. Correct. Adam was two, three levels above them. He was like the guy that gets to 1,500 kilos and distributes it out.

Starting point is 00:41:26 And he's making a million dollars a week and he's selling what, 50 million a year in cocaine? Correct, yeah. How did you come to meet him and what was the arrangement? From Baron, the same way I met LaCompanier. Through that car shop? Yes, correct. Then we had a nice sit down, him and I,

Starting point is 00:41:39 we had a discussion, I said, if you want to talk to me, you bring $24,000 in cash. I don't know why I didn't say 25. So he agrees he wants to talk to you? Yeah. And what does he say in that meeting? He agrees to the meeting. We sit down.

Starting point is 00:41:52 And I explain to him what I can do. What can you do? Nothing, really. But I make it up. What did you say? I said, I can surveil your buildings and your locations. And if I know of any impending raids, I could give you a heads up." I said, but one thing I did say to him, and I'll say it to the camera, if anybody gets

Starting point is 00:42:11 hurt, I'm giving myself and you up. I said, because that's not what this is about. We agreed to it with the terms. I'll do what I can for you. I said, I can't promise you anything, but I will do what I will do for you is the best that I can. So Diaz started paying me $8,000 a week. Listen, I'm now making $8,000 a week, split it with my partner.

Starting point is 00:42:29 I didn't deserve any of it, but whatever. And that was more than the President of the United States at the time. That's a pretty powerful feeling for a civil servant cop. So you couldn't really do anything for him? Very little. You could do very little for him, but you promised him a lot. Yes. And I actually performed for him.

Starting point is 00:42:48 So he originally paid you $24,000? For the conversation. Just for the conversation? Correct. And then he paid you $8,000 a week? Yes. Wow. And there was a particular time where you did actually save him some money?

Starting point is 00:43:01 More than once, yes. I probably was involved with him at this point for about three or four weeks. I was able to pick off a pending raid that I didn't know they were going into his store. But I knew there was a raid going to happen. So I walked into his store, picked up two Heineken's, walked up to the counter, opened up the Heineken's and told the guy behind, I didn't know the guy behind the counter, I go, shut it down. I said, shut it down. He looks at counter. I go, shut it down. Shut it down.

Starting point is 00:43:25 He looks at me, I go, shut it down. He don't know me, I don't know him, but he knows. I walked outside and I say within an hour and a half, they were hit with a team of 30, 40 narcotics detectives. And I don't think they found a gram of salt in the place. And there was another occasion where you saved Adam Diaz. Well that's when they got the robbery with Coke and Franklin. So Franklin and Coke were the local bandits.

Starting point is 00:43:53 They robbed all the drug dealers because they were just straight up killers. They didn't care. And they went to his spot. And they're not going to kill you if they don't have to if you give up the shit. So the kid walked him upstairs, Elvis was his name, walked him upstairs to the apartment with all the drugs and all the money in it. And they gave as much as they could up. And someone called 911. And I hit mark one right down there. And I pulled out. It was the first car on the scene. I jumped out. And Elvis goes, Elvis is telling me,

Starting point is 00:44:18 yeah, they just robbed us. So I shut it down. We're on the scene. No further. I think it's a 90X rate, which means it's unfounded, so that would stop the police approaching the location. Basically, I have the scene closed down. There's a guy upstairs, a cop's upstairs, taking shit out, like cash and drugs. The thieves couldn't get it all. There was just too much.

Starting point is 00:44:40 I go, what are you guys doing? It's just crazy how this happens. They go, we found, I go, listen, do you have a search warrant to go in that house? The young cop. I'm the senior guy at the scene. They go, no. I go, so what are you doing? You can't just go in there and take the shit out.

Starting point is 00:44:55 Technically you can't, but you can because it's an exigent circumstance, you're allowed. So they got bags of cocaine and money. So I got the cops to put the cocaine and the money back in the fucking house. Don't ask me how, but they did. A quick word about our sponsor, LinkedIn. Money and time are two of the most valuable resources in business, as you'll know. And when used in the right way,

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Starting point is 00:45:52 And if you do that, you'll get a $100 credit just for being part of the Diary of a CEO community. Claim yours right now at linkedin.com slash diary. Terms and conditions apply. One of your friends when you were a cop was called Officer Venable. And he was shot in the head by associates at La Compania. And you were the first cop to arrive on the scene

Starting point is 00:46:13 of Officer Venable, who later died in the hospital. Correct. And you said that you had a lot of guilt over it. Yes. Well, because it's just the whole thing. I was involved in drugs in East New York, and I was involved in protecting drug organizations. And now a cop that I didn't know was killed.

Starting point is 00:46:31 And that doesn't matter that I didn't know him because he's a cop. It's not acceptable. The fact that a cop was killed is not acceptable. And now the guilt that I lived with was that I was protecting people that may have either dealt with those people or been associated with those people. He killed a cop. But they killed a cop. And that's, you know, everything's, what does Tyson say?

Starting point is 00:46:57 It's all good until someone punches you in the fucking nose? Well, that's like getting punched in the nose. Like, what am I really doing? It was hard to swallow. I don't think there's no excuse. What's the answer to that? It's not behavior that or it's first of all, in East New York, the cops are the greatest in the fucking world.

Starting point is 00:47:21 They dealt with the worst scenarios that mankind can present. At that point, no cop had ever been killed in East New York. Some had been shot, some had been injured, but no on-duty police officer had been killed ever in East New York to that day. It's almost like I was connected to it. So it was tough. It was tough on me as a human being, never mind as a cop that was doing wrong. I mean, we allowed them to stay in business. Even though there was little you could do, the fact that you knew what they were doing,

Starting point is 00:47:58 and the fact that you partook in some of the spoils of it, you feel that you're directly connected and responsible. When you say you feel bad, how did that manifest like literally and specifically? Well, I would say that that's when I really took that turn into drugs and alcohol more deeply. And that's when I ended up probably three to six months later, I ended up in a rehab. About six months later, I ended up in rehab. Were you depressed? What a cop does, what I did, was I would go in my bathroom, close the door, and read the paper and cry.

Starting point is 00:48:37 Now, I don't deserve any sympathy for that. It's just it was my way of letting go of all the guilt I was living with throughout my career as a cop. You go in your bathroom, read the newspaper and cry. Yeah. Just because it was a way to release all the built up, I don't know what the proper word is for this at this point, stress, anxiety, guilt. Because I knew my internal strife about what I was doing was wrong, I was not able to publicly grieve. I'm really feeling bad right now. What do I do? I robbed drug dealers and I sold some cocaine and now there's a cop dead as a result of cocaine. Who do I tell that to? It's my own prison.

Starting point is 00:49:28 At this time you were on drugs as well, you were taking drugs. Alcohol, drugs at this point. Also you were losing your marriage. Correct. I want to be accurate on the reason I went. Even in spite of losing my marriage and my kids and my house, it wasn't the driving force. The driving force was I was going to lose my job. That was the driving force. At this point, I didn't want to lose the job.

Starting point is 00:49:55 I'd rather leave the job on my own terms than lose the job. Who had you become? I became the direct result of poor decisions and the environment that I was in, which I could see looking back at the time. I became whatever was in the environment. I became part of the environment. I was no different than the people that were selling crack cocaine or robbing people, robbing drug dealers because they all did each other that way.

Starting point is 00:50:24 So a lot of people say, well, that's the because they all did each other that way. So a lot of people say, well, that's the environment they grew up in. You know what? I can see that. So I can relate to that. It doesn't excuse the behavior. We all know that. It's no excuse to the behavior. But I became the environment I was living in. If I'd asked your wife at the time, what's Mike like as a human? What would she have said to me at that point when you go off to rehab? She probably would have said he's a lost soul and an asshole. It wasn't a nice... You become

Starting point is 00:50:55 God. You get the God complex. You feel indestructible. But you see yourself declining. Like, it's the weirdest thing in the world. You know you're going down a rabbit hole, but the whole time you have this false armor on. What's the rabbit hole you were going down? Drugs, alcohol, women, violence. You know, violence is coming. You know, I mean, you're turning into a violent,

Starting point is 00:51:27 potential killing machine. I was going to become the exact thing that you would have said, you don't belong in the street ever in your life again. And you went to rehab, and when you're coming out of rehab, your intent is to straighten up your life? When I came home, it was an eye-opener because I thought, great, I'm going to get a fresh start. It turned out that when you become a straight-laced guy, when you've been known to be corrupt,

Starting point is 00:51:58 the process of getting to become a police officer in full respect is very, very difficult, maybe never, it may never happen. So in my case, because I tried to do the right thing, and I'm not trying to shift responsibility, because it's always your own responsibility. Because I was trying to do the right thing, cops got nervous, because this isn't the guy we heard about. So that means he's here to set us up. So when you came back from rehab, they thought you were working as an informant?

Starting point is 00:52:29 Correct. Yes, very well played. Yes. That's what they thought. That I was now working for the man. And I was there to get them. And what did that mean in terms of how they treated you? So they would be, they would shun me, not want to work with me, not want to partner with me, not want to back me up, not invite me to any social gatherings. So I was basically an outcast now. I went from being the guy that ran shit to an outcast. And what did that mean for you as a cop?

Starting point is 00:52:54 Well, it meant that you isolated and that you had no camaraderie. You didn't have the reason that you enjoy being a cop because you had brotherhood, camaraderie, safety, protection, like any organization that you belong to. I basically didn't have that anymore. That affected me and my decision making going forward from there. I just couldn't stay stopped.

Starting point is 00:53:14 It's like being an alcoholic. You can stop, but you got to stay stopped. How long were you in rehab for? Two years. You were in rehab for two years? Yeah. Not locked away in rehab, but what they call rehab for? Two years. You were in rehab for two years? Yeah. Not locked away in rehab, but what they call modified assignment for two years. Okay.

Starting point is 00:53:30 And you tried to resign slash retire from the police on disability at one point? Well, I was hoping that they would offer it. Right. Yeah. Messages were being dropped, this guy's no good, and they're going to arrest him soon if he continues on. The words to me were, you're going out one way or the other, and it's not through disability.

Starting point is 00:53:47 You're either getting arrested or fired. Someone looking at the story would probably go, if you knew that they were onto you, if you knew that they were investigating you, following you for months and months and months, why didn't you just stop? You know when the kid goes into the barn and there's a pile of hay and shit and manure.

Starting point is 00:54:06 And someone tells them there's a diamond ring in the middle of that pile of shit. And the kid gets his shovel and he starts shoveling looking for that diamond ring. That's who I am. I'm that guy looking for that little diamond in that pile of shit. I'm an optimist. You thought it would be okay? Listen, I was in prison for, well, I was sentenced to 14 years, which by the way was a pretty fair sentence overall, I guess.

Starting point is 00:54:33 And every day in prison, I thought the next day I might go home. And I did that for 12 and a half years. That's how powerful the mind is. I was born in 92. And in 92, that's quite a significant year for you because this is the year you were arrested. What happened that day, take me into that day when you were arrested by the police department? So it's 92, the day after Rodney King riots, May 4th, May 5th, I had just made a deal with Kenny Urell, my ex-partner, who was in a cocaine business with him, his wife, and his friends at the bowling alley. Kenny Urell kept calling

Starting point is 00:55:09 me up for drugs because the price had doubled. And he knew that if anyone could get it, I could. And I did. So I got him a couple of packages of cocaine, let's say three or four. In the meantime, his phones were tapped because he was the target of an investigation on Long Island. The following day, I'm driving around and my radio is extremely quiet. No one's quiet. Nine-four is quiet anyway, the Williamsburg area, but really quiet for the last two, three days. I'm getting a little suspicious.

Starting point is 00:55:39 I just pick the top of the package off with Kenny. I pull up to the station house and I see a car there that looks strange. I see two guys in the front seat. I walk into the station house, my partner, and the desk officer, he points, he says, the captain wants to see you. In walks these two guys that were in the car that were out in front of the precinct with their badges out, lieutenant so-and-so, internal affairs, we're taking you for a drug test.

Starting point is 00:56:03 And sure enough, went downstairs, got changed. I couldn't even get changed. I couldn't get my clothes off. They were so close to me. I couldn't bend my knee. It was like right up my ass. Like, excuse me, guys. I said, am I under arrest?

Starting point is 00:56:13 They go, no, no, no. Are you sure? Because you're awfully close here. Anyway, they put me in a car. I get in the back of the car. I said, I got to smoke. I got cocaine in my pocket now because it's in my clothes. I couldn't take it out and leave it in my locker with them standing there.

Starting point is 00:56:27 I go, you guys, can you open a window? I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm chain smoking. Yeah, that's OK. We'll be all right. Are you sure you guys are going to choke out? No, no, don't worry about it. I'm trying to get the cocaine and throw it out the window.

Starting point is 00:56:37 Anyway, they pull up to one left-rack city and there's probably 60 cops, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, inspectors, all of them, lined up with their brass on, all in uniform. I'm like, what the fuck is this? For a drug test? A little strange. I get out of the car, I go, I can't dump it here. I can't even dump the coke.

Starting point is 00:56:59 So I get upstairs to 16th floor, and there's the lieutenant who's been waiting for me for years. He goes, down, how are you? I He goes, Daud, how are you? I go, good sir, how are you? He goes, good. He hands me the cup, go take a piss. I hit just on a bump and a vodka, so I knew I was hit. I turn around and in walks my mother's cousin from Suffolk County Police Department and

Starting point is 00:57:19 says, Mr. Daud, you're under arrest for conspiracy to distribute narcotics. So did you think you were going to jail for the rest of your life at that point? No. I didn't even think a week. I didn't even think a day. I think I'm going to make bail, I'm going to beat the charge. That's how I'm thinking. How did it feel when you got arrested?

Starting point is 00:57:39 It was the biggest moment of relief. You asked about life changing, lowest points. This was the best feeling in the world, almost, like almost. I was like, finally it's over. It's finally over. I can go on with my life somehow. I didn't know it would take almost 15 years, or even more when you think about probation and all that shit.

Starting point is 00:58:07 You were relieved? When I was going to work every day, I was going to work with anxiety and fear. I no longer had to have that fear. It was gone. Of course, I didn't know what I would be facing. I figured this would work out. That's how I thought. You know, when you say you're going to work with anxiety and fear,

Starting point is 00:58:26 early on you said you weren't scared of being arrested. I wasn't scared of being arrested. I was afraid of ruining my life. Okay. And living a double life, you know, I'm lying to my wife, I'm lying to my family, I'm lying to the department, I'm lying to myself, I'm lying to my young child, I'm two children at this point.

Starting point is 00:58:43 You know, everything's a lie. So there's anxiety and fear in that. The fear of arrests really never entered my mind. It's funny when you describe being arrested and you reference it almost like it was your moment of freedom. I still do today. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. If I could capsulize, put that in a bottle, the peace I had at that moment, I could probably live in that peace my entire life and wish for that peace.

Starting point is 00:59:14 The peace that comes over you when that pressure comes off your life. Because I no longer have to live a lie. Obviously, most people can't relate because they've never been in such a situation where they've been arrested. But I think to some degree people can relate with the feeling of living a life that's inauthentic to them and then something happening which forces them to course correct. Yeah. I mean, some people kill themselves. Other people overcome it and become the better version of themselves. Either they make lemonade out of the lemons or they go on to become ruinous. So, and I told you, I'm looking for that diamond in their pile of shit.

Starting point is 00:59:52 So to me, it was freedom. How old's your child now? Your son? I have two. My oldest son is, he'll be turning 40 and my younger son is 33 or 4. So what advice based on your experience in that moment would you give to your kids about living an authentic life and lying? And you'll know this from life itself, it's easier to tell the truth in the end than it

Starting point is 01:00:21 is to lie because you have to remember the lies every day and live with the pressure of being uncovered. So accept the hard knocks that come along with living honestly and you'll turn out to be a better person. So part of my lesson is if you don't have any bumps in the road of life, you really don't know that much about life. You have to learn how to overcome adversity. So go ahead, live a good life, do the best you can.

Starting point is 01:00:54 And if there comes a point where you want to, let's say, experiment with something or take risks, just accept the consequences. If you're going to stick up a bank, there's going to be consequences, maybe. And if there isn't any consequences, it's going to haunt you. There will eventually be a consequence. There's always a consequence. Everything has a cost. I think about that just in day-to-day interactions, that it's like, it's easier to have the difficult conversation now versus avoiding it,

Starting point is 01:01:22 and then it becomes an even more difficult situation. You're logical. You're logical. conversation now versus avoiding it and then it becomes an even more difficult situation. You're logical. People that live in fear of consequences, they don't think of that. They think of the immediate consequences, immediate gratification. Guy wants to get high because he wants to feel this now, but he doesn't realize that later on, that cost, the consequence to that job, career, freedom, future, relationships, all the damage one incident can cause. But if you own up to something immediately and accept the responsibility for it, people have a choice then.

Starting point is 01:01:59 You know who I am, you can either interact with me or not. But I don't have to have a false front on when I speak with you or interact with you. That must be quite a challenge for you today because you now go on podcasts, you interview, talk about what happened in your life and you, there's a lot of things that you did that are hard to say, but you're also battling with this new reality of being honest about everything. Yes. So it's not hard for me to say anymore, because if you choose to have a conversation with me about those things, you're going to hear things that you may or may not like, but you chose to be in this conversation. You, your audience, people that, there's a

Starting point is 01:02:41 lot of people that hate me out there, but I know this for a fact. I have people today reaching out to me that have attempted suicide 10, 15 times. Cops that have had the gun in their mouth and then their son walked in the room and then I spoke to them the next day. I mean, I can go down a list of them. So you never know what being honest and fully disclosing the tragedy of life, the experiences of life, can do for the next person. And so that's really where I'm so happy that I've been able to do that.

Starting point is 01:03:12 I have a purpose and it keeps me connected. You know, look, once you're a cop, you're sort of always a cop in a way. When there's going to be cops, he's never been a cop, he's a bad guy. Well, you know what? Fuck you. You eventually get released on bail after that first arrest, which I think comes to

Starting point is 01:03:25 a lot of people surprised because I think some people thought that you were going to be in prison for the rest of your life. But your family put up some assets to get you out on bail. That was a $350,000 bail. It doesn't straighten you up. No. When I get out on bail, I'm clear headed, but I don't know what to do because I've never been in this situation.

Starting point is 01:03:44 I don't have a job. I have two or been in this situation. I don't have a job. I have two or three mortgages to pay. I have a condo on the ocean in Myrtle Beach. I have three homes. The tenants stopped paying the rent because they saw I was arrested. Now I'm back in the chase again to try to get my life back together. And then it turns into a whole new scenario comes my way. I'm out on bail.

Starting point is 01:04:04 I end up making a plan to go to Nicaragua if they could become a shrimp fisherman Wait, let's pause there a second. So you're out on bail and you plan to escape the US Yes, which means that you'd be escaping your charges, correct, but I can't go if I don't pay my family back I can't leave them homeless Okay, so when you go out on bail, your family are basically guaranteeing the money. So if you don't return from bail. They got to sell their homes to pay my bail. They've got to get $350,000.

Starting point is 01:04:34 So what you want to do is you want to get $350,000, give it to your family so that you can escape the US. Correct. OK. Yes. And how do you plan to get that $350,000? There's a scenario comes my way. There's a woman that owes this drug organization half a million in cash and 10 kilos.

Starting point is 01:04:53 All we have to do is go get the money from her and the drugs and I could pay my family back and I can leave the country and Kenny's going to join me. My partner's back in. But that wasn't the plan. The plan was never to kidnap her. The plan was to go in with some flowers, push her out of the way, take the money and the drugs. But Kenny was working for the federal government right now, we're on a wire.

Starting point is 01:05:18 He called me up to the drugs that brought me into his conspiracy and they made me the kingpin of his conspiracy. How long had you known Kenny? I had known Kenny since 1985. So now it's 1992. So you'd known him a long time. Seven years. You'd been friends a long time. Yes.

Starting point is 01:05:35 And Kenny intentionally wears a wire and pulls you into a conspiracy working with the police. With the federal government, yes. Where they're trying to get you to potentially kidnap this woman, steal her stuff. Correct. holds you into a conspiracy, working with the police. With the federal government, yes. Where they're trying to get you to potentially kidnap this woman, steal her stuff. Correct. And leave the country. So what does that do?

Starting point is 01:05:51 That makes me, it takes me from a low-life drug dealer to a low-life kidnapping murderer guy. So then I'll never go home. You see? You see how they're good. They're good. They take you from being a drug dealer who's going to get 15, 20 years to a murderer kidnapper. You took the they're good. They're good. They take you from being a drug dealer who's going to get 15, 20 years

Starting point is 01:06:05 to a murderer-kidnapper. You took the bait, though. Took the bait. Swallow it like a pig. So you've left jail, you're out on bail, Kenny starts putting in your head this idea of potentially kidnapping or stealing from this woman. You don't know he's working for the police.

Starting point is 01:06:23 And on the day of this attempted kidnap slash robbery, you're arrested. Correct. Again. Again. And how does it feel the second time you're arrested? Relief again? No. Now I'm angry. Now I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off because I'm, you got to realize realize I'm a rat in a corner trying to get out. You throw some cheese in front of me, I go and eat the cheese and then you poison the

Starting point is 01:06:53 cheese, which is Kenny bringing the fucking poison pill to me of this kidnapping theory that unfolds. Why did you take the bait there? Why didn't you just, because you talked to me, you said you had relief when you were arrested that first time. That's the dichotomy of this whole thing. It was the greatest relief of my life. But I jumped back in like a fool.

Starting point is 01:07:15 It was, you know, the word fear always comes out first for me. Fear of not being able to provide from now I got a wife and two kids. Because I was told I'm getting 25 to life by the state of New York. That'll make anybody consider running. I don't give a fuck who you are. Now you're a police officer in your 30s, 25 to life. So you know you're getting 25.

Starting point is 01:07:38 So maybe 30. So now I'm 30 something years old. If I get out at 60, maybe. If I live through it, I'm looking to go. Bottom line. Now, whatever opportunity comes along, I'm looking to hit on it, whatever I can do. So I'm like that fish, the danglet bait, eventually a fish is going to bite that hook. What happens to the bail? Do your family get to keep their money? Yes, because I got arrested. Because I got arrested.

Starting point is 01:08:06 Eventually you're convicted of racketeering, organized, which is basically an organized crime scheme and conspiracy to distribute narcotics. You served 12 years and five months in prison. That day you went to prison, if I'd asked you how long do you think you're going to be here, what would you have said? So when I was sitting there waiting to get sentenced, I'm thinking I'm going to get seven, eight years. And sure enough, she was firm and gave me what she thought I deserved. Mr. Dowd, that's 168 months.

Starting point is 01:08:31 So I'm going, what the fuck's 168 months? And she knew it. She goes, that's 14 years. How did you feel when you heard that? I was devastated. I was devastated. You don't know how you're going to react. I was pissed and devastated. You don't know how you're going to react. I was pissed and devastated and I got to survive this.

Starting point is 01:08:51 Like now you go right into survival mode. I got to survive this. And how am I going to do that? People often think if you're like a cop and you get sent to prison that you're going to have a really hard time. You are. Did you have a hard time? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:05 But I was fortunate enough that, see, I went to prison as basically a racketeer, right? And I worked with Dominican drug gangs. 30% of the population is Dominican slash Puerto Rican slash drug dealers in that realm. Then you have your street peddlers, which wouldn't be the same level. And then you have your white collar guys and your bank robbers. So I was a cop sent to prison. I was sent to prison as a police officer for violating human rights, for beating and abusing individuals.

Starting point is 01:09:38 I was sent to prison for doing what everybody else in there was doing. So the landing was a little bit different for me. Now, don't say it was not easy. I didn't have people opening a welcome mat for me, but there were some people that were kind and that helped make my bid go well. No matter where I am in the world, it seems like everyone is drinking Matcha.

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Starting point is 01:10:51 first order using code diary 40. What about your family at this point? Your mum and dad? Let's watch your head. Yes. Okay. I'm Carol Dowd and I'm Michael Dowd's mother. Well, I remember being in court. I only went to court once and that was the day of sentencing. When they said the amount of days he would be away, I didn't really, it didn't like hit my mind, right?

Starting point is 01:11:27 Because it was in days, it wasn't in years, you know? And somebody says that could be 15 years. We tried to deal with it the best we could. Everything was going smooth in our lives. And then all of a sudden, this hit. When I saw him, I guess my first reaction was, I love him, but I want to just reach in through the bars between us and say, what did you do this for?

Starting point is 01:11:54 I can only imagine the emotions that must go through your head when you find out something like that. Yeah, it's terrible. Believe me, it's terrible. Especially when you think you're dealing with something else. You're dealing with a kid who was honest and reliable and smart and good. Absolutely shocked.

Starting point is 01:12:18 I was angry, very angry at him. How could you do this? You know, that type of thing. She took eight months to come see me. Eight months. Yeah. And then she finally came and she didn't want to let me go. You know, that was tough. She had, she went to church every day. 12 years. She's 84. That's tough.

Starting point is 01:13:24 Yeah. Okay. Why do you think that moved him so much? I don't think he ever really sits back and thinks about the other people. You know, the other people in his life, his father, his mother, his family. It's all about him. It wasn't about anybody else around him. How does that make you feel when you see him? It made me feel glad that he felt sorry. Because he never really says this in front of us,

Starting point is 01:14:00 but it made me feel glad that he remembered that I went to church and prayed for him. He had good parents, believe me, and I don't know why this happened to him. He was a skinny little kid on the corner with a police uniform on, and the authority, I guess, went to his head. I'm not sure.

Starting point is 01:14:23 You know? This is always the, Bob was always the, the weathervane of what's right and wrong, right? I fought with my mother my whole fucking life. She always kept me on track, tried. She's tough, she's still tough. That's a fucking get me a cocksucker. A cocksucker.

Starting point is 01:15:09 It's so interesting to see that emotion because it really tells me a lot about the relationship you have with this woman. I don't even know this woman but I can see the relationship. We fight every fight. My father leaves the room but we get to... It's like, you guys are always fighting. That's what your mother does. Because she's the one who keeps you to the mat. She puts you on the mat. My father, ah, it's okay, we'll get over it. But my mother, she holds you to account. Mother holds you to account.

Starting point is 01:15:43 But she loves you still. She went to church for every day. Every day. I never knew that. I never knew that. I only found that out. About a year ago. I'm hoping for 20 years.

Starting point is 01:15:58 She only told me about a year ago. What? Why does that move you so much to find out she went to church every day when you were in jail? Because my mother's not very lovey-dovey. Ah. She's not. And because my father was.

Starting point is 01:16:20 But you know, when you're raised by... My mother was raised by nuns, you know. I mean, cold and calculating. You never knew she had a heart. I mean, for someone to go to church every fucking day... They must really love you. I guess it's before itself. I...

Starting point is 01:16:39 SHE LAUGHS You know, I had to have some discipline raising that many children. You have to have discipline. And of course, you kiss them goodnight, you kiss them goodbye, you love them. But my showing my love was like making them breakfast. I made them breakfast, you know? So that was kind of a way to show your love. I was here for them all the time, but I was not mushy, you know?

Starting point is 01:17:21 And he's right. It was hard for him to understand what I was going through because I never showed my emotions to them. The only emotions they would get is, get up in the room and clean it up. Get upstairs you and hang those clothes up. You know, so there was always that direction of water. So I was pretty tough. But that's the way I am. I think because of the way I was raised, I didn't have a happy childhood. But that's, you know, that could be a reason why I was tough. But I was tough. Maybe I was too tough. Maybe I was too tough. What is that range of emotions you feel about them now in the wake of all of this? That they Persevered

Starting point is 01:18:23 They persevered when I didn't think much of their Shavails that they were going through. I wish I could be them to my kids. When I reflect on it, I'm like, I'm not them. I can never be them. I just can't. But yeah, it's really heavy for me. I don't think anybody asked me that question before because that's really… I mean, I'm

Starting point is 01:18:47 64 years old, bro. My parents are 80s. Days on this earth are numbered for all of us, and we don't know when the next one's going to come or not. And with them, I call them almost every day just to hear their voice, make sure. Check. Everything good? Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 01:19:07 Is there guilt associated with them in particular? I don't even know what guilt is anymore sometimes. I just think it's... I have compassion for what they've had to deal with. So if you can translate that to guilt, I guess so. But for me, it's more like that's amazing what they did and what they still do. Like maybe there's a sense of pride and maybe some shame. There's a lot of gratitude there. I am so grateful.

Starting point is 01:19:46 That would be the best way to describe it. Because I didn't have that for my parents growing up because I was the one. I was the star. I was going to bring my family someplace. And in the end, it came back to the people that I was always told not to be, don't be like dad, be somebody else. My mother, she came from a broken home. Don't be like your mother, be like somebody else. But these are the perfect people. It all comes back to them, really, if you think about it. Without them, I'd be in. I'd be inside.

Starting point is 01:20:27 Because you left prison after, jail after 13 odd years. You were 43 years old. You left. Yeah. I'm going to say I was 44, actually, when I stepped out the door. So you stepped out the door at 44 years old, and you went back home? Yes. Right? Yeah. To their house. To their house. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:47 Yeah. That's quite the story. I looked out the window. I saw my brothers, two kids. I didn't know their names. And I'm looking at these two kids. Those are my nephews. I don't even know who they are.

Starting point is 01:20:55 I don't know their names. And then you see the tears flowing. That was 10 times. First shower I took in freedom. And I didn't know if it was the water or my tears that were cascading over me. That's no exaggeration. I had to rebuild a life from there. But without them and that shower, without that moment of realizing the loss.

Starting point is 01:21:21 See, people don't realize the loss. The loss is from the time you graduated high school and finished two and a half years of college, you left that and then the next 20 fucking years of your life, zero. This is zero. You come out to zero. You are zero. Like we all measure ourselves by what we've gained over life. I don't have a car. I don't have a car. I don't have a dollar.

Starting point is 01:21:47 I don't have any clothes. I have nothing. And now I'm 44 years old. But I had two wonderful people. Your mum and your dad. Yeah. Not everybody can get that. Did you want to go back to prison when you came out? When I first came home, yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:07 Because people talk about being institutionalized where prison becomes home and comfort and familiarity. Yeah. Was that the case for you? Yes. When I first came home, I didn't even know how to order a hot dog. I didn't know how. I didn't know how to matriculate for society.

Starting point is 01:22:21 That same moment, I came out of the shower and I stood there and I said, what am I going to do with my life? I got to get a job. What's it like to get a job? Forget about getting a job when you come out of prison. That's almost impossible, just so you know. There's no bullshit. It's almost impossible to get a job when you come home from prison.

Starting point is 01:22:36 Now you're a dirty cop. Who the fuck wants to hire a dirty cop? You disparage the public's trust. You rob drug dealers. You sold drugs. You did cocaine. Oh, did you want to hire me? You didn't know your kids when you came out?

Starting point is 01:22:50 I didn't know my kids. I, how could you? I was gone for 12 and a half years. My son was six, five and a half. He went to college. My other son was 11 months, and he was going into second year of high school by the time I went to see him. Well, first year of high school.

Starting point is 01:23:11 So I didn't know them. So that was a tough situation to walk into. You try to get a job as a handyman thereafter. Eventually, you go on to be approached to make a documentary about your life called The 7-5 Documentary, which explains your life in more detail and everything that happened. And the documentary was centering on the Mullen Commission, which was a commission set up in New York by the mayor at the time to assess the extent of corruption in the NYPD.

Starting point is 01:23:40 And before you were arrested, there were 16 complaints that had been made against you in the years to the Internal Affairs Bureau. You didn't provide any names at the Mullen Commission. You said at the time, if I speak before your commission, a lot of cops are going to commit suicide. Yes, that's correct. And during those hearings at that commission,

Starting point is 01:23:58 you admitted to hundreds of crimes. But later, you said it's probably more like thousands, and you explained the context of that. Correct. And in that commission, you admitted that both police and drug dealers were your employees, and as a result of this commission, 200 officers were arrested for drug trafficking. Correct. So that commission was a huge moment back in 1992 where things really...

Starting point is 01:24:16 Yeah, the commission actually took place in 93, but yes, in association to my arrest, yes. And that was 10 years ago, roughly. Yes, so that was 2000 and... arrest, yes. And that was ten years ago, roughly? Yes, so that was 2015, 16. If I went back and I spoke to Mike at, let's say, 18 years old, what was like the most important thing that he needed to hear that he didn't hear? If you could teleport back now and whisper in his ear, what would you say to him? Yeah, well, you know, maybe I would, I'm proud of you and I love you.

Starting point is 01:24:52 You know, I'm proud of you and I love you. It's simple, two words. Why did he need to hear that? What would have, what would that have changed? Well, because we never know that we're doing enough. To be full of pride can be damaging, but for others to be proud of you, like you wonder what did I do that would give you that gives you a sense of pride on my behalf, let's say, like, why would you be proud of

Starting point is 01:25:29 me? Well, because I like the way you handle people, you go out of your way, you know, which is both showing love. And that's a reason for you friends to be proud. I'm proud of Mike. Why? Because he sacrifices of himself for others. Like that's sort of in my nature, I guess, to begin with.

Starting point is 01:25:48 Did you feel like anyone was proud of you at that age? Honestly. You're getting back to my mother, okay? You get me back to my mother stuff. And I've always been seeking my mother's approval for some reason. My dad was always pretty proud of me, you know. And do you think that if someone had said that to you at 18 years old, that they're proud of you, that they loved you, do you think it's likely that you wouldn't have

Starting point is 01:26:13 made the decisions you then went on to make? I think, so one time hearing that would do nothing for anybody. But if that's what you felt in your call? To be felt, feel that, to be constantly reassured, I think that that could make some significant changes in any person. Because as I'm thinking it through, I've always was seeking my mother's approval. I mean, every problem I ever fucking had with a woman, I would always profess, I don't have my mother's approval. Somehow it would come out.

Starting point is 01:26:41 I'm disappointing my mother. And that never has had left me. I think now I'm okay. My mom and I are pretty cool. You know, when she told me she was praying for me every day, I'm like, I didn't think you liked me. You know? So yeah, so.

Starting point is 01:26:58 Does this corruption still go on in the police department? Yeah, oh, it's massive. So it's still happening now? It's massive. It's just still happening now? It's massive. It's just everything changes, but it's still corruption. So when I was a corrupt police officer, the corruption was at the lower level, because it was a street level corruption. Today it's all up at the top, and it's plenty of it.

Starting point is 01:27:20 It's all about big budgets and money, power. Do you think they'll always be? Listen, they had the girl bend over and get taken up the ass. Excuse me. The police chief... Did what? Grabbed a lube from his location, bent the girl over the couch and fucked her in the ass.

Starting point is 01:27:40 Recently? Yes. And he was paying her for it. On overtime. Who was this? This was a sex worker or? This is a fucking lieutenant. Oh, so the chief was having sex with the lieutenant? Yeah, because she needed money to pay her bills.

Starting point is 01:27:57 Oh, okay. Okay. He gave her $200,000 in overtime pay. This is what goes on. That's the corruption that goes on today. Do you think there's still drug corruption going on with drugs and drug dealers and stuff like that? Not to the extent that it was.

Starting point is 01:28:15 No, but there's always some, it's always, here's how it's today. Corruption is today hit and miss, scores, opportunity. There's no systematic corruption today. There may be a few, but very few. When you say scores, you mean cops showing up at some point finding something. Finding something and taking it. That would be the corruption you would run in today more than anything else. In that kind of level of corruption.

Starting point is 01:28:42 But systematic corruption of the bureaucracy itself is massive. What was the most you, how much money you made in a day, you said it was 40,000? 40,000, yeah. And was that the? The funny thing is I could have made 150,000 if Diaz said I should have took the money from the robbery where they left the money behind. He said, you should have took that money. At least I know someone would have got it, instead of the cops got it.

Starting point is 01:29:06 Wow. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, listen, there's a thousand stories in that city. Every day was a, it's like being in a movie, but you're just, you're actually part of it. Every fucking day, you know, it's just insane. Listen, I loved being a police officer. I didn't think that I would. It's the greatest job in the world if you have the support that you need.

Starting point is 01:29:32 You can have a wonderful day as a police officer. You can have a horrible day. But in the end, all you really want is love. Don't we all? Mike, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is, what is the gift that the universe, life or God has put you here to share? Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to say it again, and I said it on the soft fight on the belly.

Starting point is 01:30:07 Just everybody needs more love. Just love. Just love each other. Listen. Just listen to your friends. Listen to your neighbors. Just listen. Patient. Love. Why? You'll find that we have more in common than we don't. Mike, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. And I mean, what an incredible life you have lived. Incredible isn't a very intentional word there, because you're right.

Starting point is 01:30:39 It does sound like it's a movie, effectively. It sounds like you, some of the stories that you've told and the things you've been through are unthinkable, but in the context of the human side of everything you've shared, it also makes sense. You know, we go through experiences in our lives and we can kind of take one or two routes and that experience you went through, the love you did or didn't have,

Starting point is 01:31:01 the words that went said or unsaid can take any of us in any direction. And even me sat here today, there were moments in my early life where I remember a friend turning around to me and saying to me one day, he said, you're either going to be a millionaire or a criminal. He's one of my best friends. He was my friend Joe. I remember exactly where I stood when he said it because I knew it was the truth. Like I knew it was the truth. Like I knew it was the truth.

Starting point is 01:31:25 I knew that effectively I was so desperate to be successful that that desperation would take me to great lengths. And those great lengths, especially when you're a young man and you don't understand consequence in the same way, those great lengths can trip you over any kind of moral barrier. Fortunately, I was really scared. So I was like scared of- That's a lesson, yes. Yeah, I was really scared. So I was like scared of- That's a lesson, yes.

Starting point is 01:31:46 Yeah, I was. And there was early parts of my career where I was offered opportunities to go in a certain direction, especially when I dropped out of university. And they explained to me, you know, the situation. And I was too scared to take them up on the offer. And actually the path of least resistance for me

Starting point is 01:32:02 was going into business and building businesses and doing those kinds of things. But it all stemmed from an underlying, probably, insecurity, but also fear. Yeah. And just desperately wanting to live a better life. And kind of like what you said about your parents, desperately wanting to be more.

Starting point is 01:32:16 You know? If you think about business and entrepreneurship as well, it is like self-punishment. So it's like a huge risk, huge punishment, great uncertainty. So to do such a thing, to start a company, to take that big of a risk, there's going to have to be a pretty strong macro tailwind driving force that's making you do that. And a lot of the time, having sat here with CEOs and founders

Starting point is 01:32:40 and people that have achieved great success, it's much of what you've described. It's maybe a parent that didn't love me enough. It's maybe living in your father's footsteps. It's maybe being bullied in school. It's maybe being told you aren't good enough in some way. And that's the escape velocity that propels us into a better or worse life.

Starting point is 01:32:56 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mike. I really, really appreciate it. What a journey. We launched these conversation cards and they sold out. And we launched them again and they sold out again. We launched them again and they sold out again. We launched them again and they sold out again. Because people love playing these with colleagues at work,

Starting point is 01:33:09 with friends at home, and also with family. And we've also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts. Every single time a guest comes on the diary of a CEO, they leave a question for the next guest in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world, and they've left all of these questions in the diary And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth one being a starter question and level three

Starting point is 01:33:32 If you look on the back here This is a level three becomes a much deeper question that builds even more connection if you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code you can see who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time. So if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards go to thediary.com or look at the link in the description below. Thanks for watching!

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Corrupt Police Officer: I Arrested Drug Dealers, Then Sold Their Drugs! There’s Massive Corruption Going On Today! - Mike Dowd

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