The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - E200: Annie Macmanus: The Real Reason I Became Europe's No. 1 Female DJ

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Annie Macmanus is a voice we’ve been hearing for twenty years. First as a presenter and tastemaker for the UK’s biggest dance music radio show, as a festival headlining DJ, as host of her podcast ‘Changes with Annie Macmanus’, and now as an author of her best-selling novel ‘Mother Mother’. Reaching the pinnacle of success with a relentless schedule headlining a 2am show in Ibiza every week before flying back in the morning to present her daily radio show, it took the pandemic lockdowns for Annie to realise she wanted something completely different from her life. So she started again. This conversation explores her decision to check in with herself and walk away from a 17 year career at the BBC to explore her passions of writing and podcasts. She presents the challenging notion that your life needs to have a revolution every 20 years for it to remain meaningful and fulfilling. Topics: Early context People please Your parents Your insecurities Leaving Ireland - being rejected why didn't you keep trying? Labels Cost of being wrapped up in your labels Learning to listen to instinct Feeling burdened Midlife crisis doubts and fears making big decisions Why did you make it? Is your relationship with work healthy? Mental health Tokenism A successful life for you last guest question Annie: Instagram - bit.ly/3iqZtcu Twitter - bit.ly/3UrsxOa Annie's podcast: bit.ly/3UhzNvT Annie's book: bit.ly/3VGwT57 Watch the episodes on Youtube: https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb Follow us on Telegram: https://g2ul0.app.link/E5re0ADNKsb Sponsors: Huel - https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb BlueJeans - https://g2ul0.app.link/NCgpGjVNKsb Craftd - https://g2ul0.app.link/gZ8in6Dsvsb

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States

and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team and thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I fiercely wanted to prove that I could do it all, but I realised quite quickly

that doing it all wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Annie Mack! Annie Mack, a superstar DJ. Who's been forging her own cult status for nearly 20 years. Make some noise! I was a teenager in the 90s. Heroin chic, Kate Moss. It was very hard not to become consumed by what the magazines and the music videos are kind of showing you.

Become obsessed with how much you weigh and what you're eating and all of that. I really wanted to get out. I loved music. I loved talking to people. I loved connecting with people. What happens when you put music and connection together? Radio. Welcome to BBC Radio 1. I was mad ambitious. I wanted to get bigger. I wanted to try everything. I felt like I wanted to prove a point.

There was a lot of pressure being female in what was essentially a man's world. It's a horrible feeling, isn't it, when you don't feel like you can do anything good enough. It became this kind of feeling of the walls closing in. I should be more grateful for the fact that I'm getting sent brilliant music every week and I get to play this on the radio but I don't feel excited enough for what this is. I felt like I didn't want to be needed by so many people anymore. Get yourself together honey come on Jesus Christ this is your last link on radio one. It takes time to feel at peace with yourself to just walk away. For people that are stood there looking into uncertainty can you tell them about how you felt in the lead up to that decision? Was there fear?

Was there doubt? What I've realised now is... Annie, what do I have to understand about your origin story, where you came from, the context in which you were raised to understand the person that's sat in front of me today? Probably that I grew up around a lot of noise, being the youngest of four. My mom had four babies in five years.

So we were all very close together. You know, we were, I guess, I don't know how you would, maybe lower middle class. I was born in a housing estate. My claim to fame was the first baby born in our housing estate. Semi-detached. My dad worked in England from Monday to Friday. So he was away a lot. So my mom kind of raised us in the weeks and um I was surrounded by love um and because I was the youngest kind of allowed to grow up without too much fussing without too much disturbance I was allowed to figure out my own likes. And I was hugely influenced, of course, by my older brothers and sister and still am. So I've always been around people. I've always

felt a kind of sense of being part of a group, a big family, which gives you that feeling of safety, I suppose. The other thing I would say is that I've always, and you kind of notice this as you get older and you go home and you know, you regress when you walk in your front door and you become a teenager again. I've always noticed that I am a bit of a pacifist, sorry, a pacifier, a diplomat. I like to try and keep the room happy you know I like to try and keep the equilibrium between people so I'll become a joker I become an entertainer I kind of I like to try and make people happy so that's that's another thing I've noticed. Was that a useful skill at some point in your life or a required skill keeping people happy being a pacifier I think I think it's become

useful later in life especially in my professional life because I literally chose a job that was to be a conduit of joy that was my job on Friday nights on radio one for many years is just to spread the kind of magic and joy that you know that music can give you know this euphoric feeling I was that messenger so I did find a job that led to me making use of that skill I suppose if you could call it a skill certainly a skill I'm wondering why why why you were a pacifier though what is that something I think I think like just you know there was no, there was never any like, you know, trauma in our house or anything like that, but it was definitely just a loud, busy house. And, you know, four teenagers in one house is a lot, you know, there's loads of arguing

and stuff. So it's easy to take, everyone takes a role when you live in a house like that. And my role was to keep people sweet basically and as the youngest it was easy because I was that kind of you know I was the one that everyone I guess doted on a bit so it was easy to play that role. What influence did your parents individually have on you when you look at your who you are today can you see sort of an imprint of either of them? Yeah I'd, I'd say that there's both, they're both in me quite a lot. My father is an extrovert. He loves people. He loves his friends. He loves chatting to anyone he can chat to. So I very much got that off him. My mom is

really bookish and really smart and very gentle. She, she kind of, she, she parented with real kindness and a real sense of selflessness and just, she was just soft and gentle in a way that the more I look at now as a parent, I'm just kind of in awe of, especially with four bonkers kids bouncing around the house. So I don't know. I, I think my friends have said there's an element of me that's strong and also an element of me that's sweet. And I think, um, maybe that's one parent in each of those. Before, before you became an adult, what were the things that were, you were worrying about? You know, like I reflect on my childhood and I think about the insecurities, the shame, the trying to fit in an all white school and all those things and how that kind

of shame had a big role in the path I pursued in my orientation. What was, what were the things that were occupying your mind when you were under the age of 18, the insecurities, the fears of the world, et cetera? No, I mean, there was so much, insecurities, the fears of the world, etc. No, I mean, there was so much, you know, corporeal stuff, so much about your body and the changes that your body is going through. And were you thin enough? And were you skinny enough? You know, I grew up, I was born in 78. So I was a teenager in the 90s, you know, heroin chic, Kate Moss, you know, low rider trousers that hung off your hips. That was, you know, like rib cages on show, all of that. So, I mean, it was very hard not to become consumed by what the, you know, the magazines and, you know, this music videos and all of that are

kind of showing you. So of course, like there was shame. I think in Ireland, you grow up around shame. There's a lot of shame in Ireland as a country. I think it's kind of passed down generationally. I was brought up like Protestant, so I went to kind of a Church of Ireland church, but Ireland is, you know, the majority of Ireland is Catholic. So there marriage, there was nothing like that. But in my lifetime, I've been incredibly lucky because Ireland has changed hugely, irrevocably. And, you know, publicly voted for all three of those things, divorce, abortion, gay marriage. And it's become a way more kind of outward facing country. But I suppose when I was growing up, still, it felt very closed. It wasn't really that outward looking, I don't think. So I felt very eager and curious about the world. Everything I knew about the world was through the Face magazine or NME or TFI Friday or, you know, all the kind

of culture that I sucked up. So I was just curious to go and see it basically and get out. I really wanted to get out. Had I asked you at that time, you knew you were going to leave. If I'd asked you where you were going to go and what you were going to do, what would you have told me? Well, I really wanted to be an actress. That was like my one true love. And I kind of put all my eggs in that basket

now I did apply for an acting course in Dublin with this very prestigious university it's Trinity University it's a uni that's in normal people that's how I call it now um but I didn't get in spectacularly failed the audition um that classic kind of went to go and do my speech it was a soliloquy at the end of Romeo and Juliet and like froze like couldn't the words just didn't come you know awful went home chopped all my hair off I'd hair down to my like to my lower back chopped it all off came home with hair like that long gave my mom a plastic bag with my ponytail in it and was like that's it my life's over basically I didn't get into the chorus I I'm, you know, I was such a drama queen, Steve, clearly. But, um, my life at that point, I'd kind of like, I'd, I'd done really well, not really well. Sorry. I was always kind of,

I was just average. I did grand in school, but I succeeded at other things. I was good at sports. I was in the choir. I was kind of like proactive and involved in lots of things. And everything that I'd kind of wanted at that point had gone my way until this point. And I was like, well, like, it's so ironic. I was actually voted the person most likely to be a movie star in my year. I was like, it's, it's destined. I'm going to be a movie star. This is easy. I'm just going to walk into this course and do it. And then just didn't get in. And it was a real rejection and something that I hadn't experienced before. And it was actually my mom who really helped me out of that rut. She was the first person in her family to go to university. She went to Queens and she suggested I go there and apply through clearing. And at that point, I was desperate. I didn't know what else to do. So I went up to Belfast,

which is about two hours north of Dublin on the train. And I got in there through Clearing and did English literature there. So she helped me find my way out of that rut. She was always a very calm presence in the background, always very wise and calm and kind of, when I look back, the more I think about her, the more I think she, she guided so much of my decisions very quietly, you know, never any pressure or any,

you know, just suggesting. Um, so I did leave home. I got out, I went to the Island of Ireland, but it was technically another country. It was the UK, it was Belfast and it felt completely different from the island I knew. And it was completely starting again. I didn't know anyone. I was living in halls in this room with someone I'd never met and I had to start from scratch. And it was kind of cool because it meant that all of the baggage that comes from growing up in Dublin, you know, everyone wants to know what school you go to. Oh, do I know your mom? Does she teach at that school? You know, all of that is gone. I was a completely unknown person. I had a clean slate. I could build my identity from scratch and figure out exactly who I was in this new world without the kind of, I suppose, not constraints or even baggage, but just without all of that stuff that came with me in Dublin, the family connections, the school, all of that. So it felt really, really scary, but also really exciting. And they were honestly three of the best years of my whole life. I found friends, I found a new family for myself in that way and figured out what I wanted to do slowly

over the course of three years. Found the career that I wanted, which was radio. And I always think like looking back, you know, sometimes the things that you don't get end up being the best things that you've ever, you know, gotten in a way. Like if you mess up, if you fail, if you don't get end up being the best things that you've ever, you know, gotten in a way. Like if you mess up, if you fail, if you don't get what you want, that can end up being the best thing that ever happened to you. And that's very much what happened to me. You know, I had one path, it didn't work. I had to turn left. And it meant then that I was able to kind of very slowly and organically feel out how I wanted to live in the world. What made me happy? What did I love? I loved music more than anything. I loved talking to people. I loved interacting with people. I love connecting with people. What happens when

you put music and connection together? Radio, music, radio. And it was that simple. It's such a simple rudimentary equation but I made that I made that equation and I was like okay that's that's where I'm gonna go talk about how failure can um redirect you towards something else and I think everybody can relate to that in their own lives but there was a question in my mind because I know how how persistent you are and I know how hard working you are so why didn't you go back round for another shot at acting? Why didn't you redo the test or go to another college? Why did you go off in another direction? It's a really good question because I, I asked myself that recently

because I actually interviewed Anne-Marie Duff on my podcast and that happened to her. She didn't get into acting college and she went back and she tried again. I think that maybe I didn't want it as much as I thought I did. Basically, like I'd been a lead in the school play and suddenly I was like, that's it. You know, it's destined. But I hadn't done any acting experience. I hadn't done any amateur theatrics. I hadn't done anything like that. So I think I was feeling a little lost. And I think a lot of the time in school, there's a pressure to pick a path. What are you going to do when you grow up? What are you going to be? Where, you know, what's your vocation? It's ridiculous to ask an 18 year old. We know that as adults, that life changes, life zigzags, you change all the time. So like, for me, it felt

like convenient because I had this experience that was good and it was like, okay, well that's grand. I'll just do that. As opposed to really kind of thinking it through and coming into it. You're talking there about discovering who you are. And also that moment when you're, you're 18 and you've got to kind of pick a, pick an identity. And it's kind of this unsaid assumption that this is what you're going to be forever so it feels high pressure what have you come to learn generally about these labels we put on ourselves I am a lawyer I am a actor and the you know I understand why they serve us sometimes they help us to fit in they help us to be understood we put them in our bio and people

understand who we are before they meet us etc but there can also be a real downside to these to kind of pigeonholing yourself in your own mind as a thing completely I couldn't agree more I think I think the world can be terrifying sometimes and I think it's comforting um to be able to put a label on yourself and feel like you're part of something, a community, a tribe, a vocationary, you know, thing. And also to, as you say, to be understood by people. Prue Leith came on Changes and talked about how she very much believes that you should have a revolution every 20 years in your life. And I'm obsessed with that now because I feel like I'm going through that now, you know, in my 40s. I'm going through my second revolution. And I love that idea that you

should be able to completely put, you know, obviously there's a privilege in this, you know, I'm not assuming that everyone could just drop their jobs and go and get another one. But if you are able to afford the space and the time to do that. I think it's so good for being alive to learn. This is what I figured out. Everything's about learning. Basically, everything comes down to learning. That's when you feel the most alive. That's when you feel the most stimulated. That's when you feel most connected to yourself is when you're learning. So for me, I just want to keep learning and very much with my own experience now, I have two young sons that when they are growing up, I'm going to try and be very open about what they do and encourage them. I mean, it even happens

now with kids, you know, you can't force them to do things. You can't force your kid to play football if he's not into football. But if he's decided he really wants to kind of do hip hop dance, well, come on then, let's go do hip hop dance. It's kind of, it's the same as adults. You can't force yourself to do something, but if you feel a pull, you should be able to do that. And the only way you feel those pulls is it'd be able to listen to yourself. So you have to check in with yourself. You have to give yourself the headspace and the time to really allow yourself to to to listen to listen to to how you feel about life to listen to when things feel a little wrong or to when you feel on unstimulated you know to come back home at the end of a week a working

week and say I didn't feel remotely excited or stimulated about what happened that week. OK, what can I do to change that? How can I tweak things? Do I need to zoom out and really look at my general career? Is there different things I can do? It's that. It's constantly checking in with yourself all the time. And that can lead to small incremental changes, also really big big ones which I feel very

excited by it's almost a bit of a paradox that we can become the victim of our own success in that regard if we become really good at being a lawyer then we build a community around us of lawyers and we get known as that we become this identity and then we almost become somewhat imprisoned by this identity sometimes it's a job title that we were really good at we got awards for so now everybody sees us as that um what in your experience is the cost then of becoming too wrapped up in your own label or identity what what cost have you experienced in your life is there a psychological cost is it a i think i think it's like it, it's basically the only cost is, is a feeling of stagnation, I suppose, you know, like, and stagnation's maybe a strong word, but everyone will relate to the feeling of the word

coasting, right? When you're coasting. I, I guess I was feeling that a little bit at the BBC and especially with DJing. So there are two very different things. But with the BBC, I felt, I mean, I loved my job and I'm so grateful for it and all of that. But I think I did feel a little coasty. I felt like I was coasting a bit, you know? And there's a point where you feel like I should be more grateful for the fact that I'm getting sent brilliant music every week and I get to play this on the radio, but I don't feel excited enough for what this is. I don't feel like I'm serving my audience right now in the right way. I'm not on their level when it comes to how excited I should be about what this is. So that was a conscious decision to take myself out of that and be able to have someone replace me who serves them in, who are at the peak of their fucking excitement about, you know, that. And, um, I still love broadcasting and I still want

to broadcast, but it will be in a different way. With regards to DJing, I feel like the problem with DJs that they always say is that the DJs grow up and the crowd stay the same age. And that's what happens. You feel yourself growing and growing. So when I started out DJing, I was flinging myself in the crowd. I had a problem with crowd surfing. It was like, stop fucking crowd surfing, Annie. It was constant. I'd get hammered I'd be like hugging people we'd have after parties and then after after parties I'd get no sleep I'd fall asleep in Ibiza airport face down waiting for the flight like I had the best time but then life catches up with you when you have kids and you grow up and you have other priorities so fast

forward 10 years I'm DJing to people who are the same age, but I'm thinking about what I'm going to put in the school lunches the next day, right? I'm thinking about how much sleep I'm going to have in the pillow on the way home in the back of this car before my kids wake up at six o'clock and how I'll be able to get through the working day tomorrow. I started dividing my time in increments of kind of 15 minutes, because I was so stressed out about not being able to have the time to sleep, to rest, to then be a good parent, to be able to do my job properly. It became like this kind of feeling of the walls closing in, you know, just like I can't please everyone. So at that point, it was like, this isn't sustainable. It's just not sustainable. I can't keep doing this. And I started DJing a lot less because of that. The world of DJing and dance music and club culture was, in the very nature of how it worked, kind of shutting me out because of how I was changing as a person. But then I kind of opened a door and made it work for me and a lot of other people. And when I do the Before Midnight shows,

people just come up and say, thanks. They're just like, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I'm 52 and I feel like I can belong here and I can come out. And, you know, it's not just people in their fifties. It's all ages. It's club kids. It's mothers and sons. It's, you know, people in their 70s. It's the most beautiful atmosphere. I've never DJed to a crowd like it because they're so kind and open and it's not really that druggy. Everyone's just there. It's their one night out. They invest so much in it and they're there to have a good time. It's nice to know that my own feelings about something were echoed by so many other people. And I don't know any other women in their forties really who are doing what I do. So I was coming at it from a very unique perspective, which is women in their forties just aren't listened to in music industry. Music industry is run by men mostly, right? So when you have a woman in her 40s, they're kind of forgotten about, right? I don't think people think about women in their 40s or

50s when it comes to selling music and they really should. It's a big, big industry. There's a lot of income there. There's a lot of investment of time they you know there's there's some great taste and uh it's been wonderful to kind of feel like I can give those women a space in in the world of clubbing there's a real I hear a real lesson about creativity but also innovation in that in the sense that when you when you think about creating new things it's very difficult to try and put yourself in the mind of someone who are you are not sure when when you want to create something that is um that is going to feel authentic and is going to be original and in demand you should first create something for yourself under the assumption that there's many more people out there like you I couldn't agree

more and your music is kind of a reflection of that in many ways. Your style has been a reflection of that. It's always felt very authentic. Yeah, I think that's the key, right? To everything, in my opinion, is authenticity. And in order to be authentic, you have to trust yourself. You have to have conviction in yourself. And you have to trust that your own instinct is the right instinct, even if everyone else is telling you something different.

That's hard. And in order to do that, you have to really know yourself. So, I don't know. I think at radio, my job there was to play music and break bands right you get sent so much music okay now at some point you have to say no to stuff and the grounds of that there's many reasons you can say no you could they're not the right hype band they don't have enough followers you know they don't have someone from their record label who's nice in me up to play it. But actually, the decision has to be down essentially to you. Does this song move you?

Do you feel like this song has got something, ideas, lyrics, sonics that can, you know, that elevate it to the point where you feel like moved by it. And I suppose there's training in that because it makes you every day, every week have to use that mechanism in your mind, which is instinct. Do you know what I mean? You have to, you have to listen to your own instinct. So, so I, I was kind of exercising that muscle by default in my job and uh I guess that's why I'm so happy and just grateful for before midnight because that is an extension of that it's me using my instinct and saying no I believe in this surely there must be people out there who who believe this too um and it's been amazing. Instinct is almost, um, especially in the way

you describe it, it's almost a voice inside of you that is, is, is whispering to you about what the, you know, what you think and feel and what you truly want. But then there's this counter narrative, this counter voice, which is usually outside of you. It can be, oh, well, what if my producer doesn't think that's a good song? Or what if the listeners don't like it? Or what if my parents think I shouldn't be doing this? a um has your ability to tune into your own instinct to that voice inside of you that that informs you kind of before you know yourself consciously has your ability to tune into that grown over time and with evidence yeah I think, yeah, I think it really has actually. I think it really has. I mean, as well as the radio shows, DJing is a huge amount of that. It's having the courage to draw for a tune that, you know, the audience don't know and won't recognize, but you still think will, will keep them on the floor. And again, that is like, it's, it's a really hard exercise and it takes a lot of fearlessness to be able to do that.

And it's very easy to panic and just put on the tune that you know it's going to fill the dance floor. And I have a folder on my USB called panic for that is special thing. So, you know, we all have those, every DJ does. But but again I think that's a really good lesson in instinct and a lesson in kind of reading the crowd but also holding firm holding firm to your own conviction in something's good and I think that has grown over the years it's grown with confidence it's grown with I suppose the idea of my shows being successful and my DJ sets being successful so as I've become more successful in my career, as a result of instinct, of trusting myself and trusting my instincts and my tastes,

then obviously, you know, that, that feeling grows more firm. You get less worried about making the wrong decision. And as your career has progressed, do you feel like if one side of the pendulum is trying to guess what people want from you in all facets of your life and the other side of the pendulum is doing what I think is right yeah do you think over your over the last sort of 10 20 years of your career you've moved towards the instinct doing what I think is right definitely yeah I'm kind of all there now good which is lovely yeah yeah it feels really good and I think part of my the the big changes that went on in my life in the last couple of years

kind of extricating myself from radio one and doing writing and writing books and taking up podcasting that's all been about that it's all been the kind of nucleus of all of those changes is me saying what do you want what do I want? What do I want? What makes me happy? What is not making me happy? It's all of that. It's all just checking in and, and doing what I feel is right. And there's no way I could have made those changes 10 years earlier or even five years earlier. It takes time. It takes, it takes time to feel like, um, at peace with yourself enough to just walk away from a career like that and say, no, I'm going to do something completely different now. As you know, Intel are now sponsoring this podcast. And last week, I introduced you to

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to my pestering, then give it a go and let me know how you get on. Zooming back then on into that part of your life where you described yourself as having a knot in your stomach. The quote I read is, I've learned that for the past six years. I've had a knot in my stomach. I had no idea it was there until it's gone. Yeah. Yeah. I could relate to that. Yeah. How? The feeling, because the broader context of what you were saying there is this feeling that you're like not going to do a good job at pretty much anything at the same time. And almost like

a building sense of guilt or trying to find a way to slow down time. Um, and it's always kind of hanging over you and then you can kind of feel it in your chest. I mean, that's kind of what I took from it is walking around with a sense of guilt and I just need five more minutes to sleep or to be this or to do well for this person. Yeah. It horrible feeling isn't it when you don't feel like you can do anything good enough it's like the absence of peace yeah it's the opposite of peace it's a constant feeling of kind of turbulence in your head constantly being pushed and pulled um so when you take that out um again you you know, I was too busy. I keep talking, I keep going back to it,

but I keep talking about checking in with myself. I was too busy to do that. I hadn't done that. I never did that. I was never like spiritual or into any of that stuff because I was too busy. It was like I don't have time for anything apart from just getting up and getting through my day. My friends used to take the piss out of me because everything was like five minute increments. They called me.

I'd be like, cool, give me the headlines. How are you? I don't have time for a full, you know, it was always that. It was always like, how can we, how can we truncate all of this into a short time as possible so I can move on to the next thing? And do more. Yeah. And do more or just more or just like maintain. I wasn't even about doing more.

It was just maintaining at that point. So when I made the decision that I was going to leave radio, it's important to know the context of which that happened. So I didn't just walk away from the career and be like, see ya, I'm just going to see what happens. I obviously took a couple of years to try out some different avenues. And these were avenues that I felt very passionate about, I really wanted to do.

So one was writing and one was podcasting. And podcasting was a reaction to the BBC. It was definitely me being like, I want to own something with regards to my own broadcasting. I want to control it. I love the BBC. I will, you know, fly the flag for the BBC forever, but it can be very frustrating working for a huge institution

because there's so many islands, there's so many departments, it's very hard to get something off the ground. So I wanted to be a broadcaster outside of the BBC and see how that felt. So that was podcasting. And then writing was something that was very much not professional or career orientated at all. That was for my soul. That was like, I want to try and learn something. I know I loved this. I want to try and do it again. And also I think in

retrospect, it was a way of me trying to understand myself because they say that about writing, like writing is a way to know yourself. So I thought if I wrote, in hindsight, maybe it was a kind of weird subconscious way of me trying to climb out of the panic. You know, it was kind of like, I know if I, if I make myself dedicate time to writing, then I will have to confront myself. I will, I will have to look in the mirror and I know deeply, deep down that there's something wrong, but I just don't have the time to confront it so I was doing writing I did a course um a six-month course I was also doing podcasting that was on top of DJing on top of doing my five shows a week on top of everything else that was going on so I had two years of total chaos of trying to juggle everything. Right. And it was after those two years when I

was like, okay, I know enough. I know I love writing enough. I know I love podcasting enough that I can give these a go. I'm going to take myself out of radio now. I'm going to take myself out of my, what was essentially my day job and give myself the space I need to really pursue these things. And that's when they're not left. When I made the decision to leave is when they're not left. When I called my boss and said, I'm out. Use the words panic and the phrase something wrong to describe the feeling that was kind of underpinning these decisions to go in search of something else to climb,

you said climb out of the panic. In hindsight, I've heard you say that in, especially from doing your podcast changes, you've kind of come to learn that that was in in some respect like a midlife crisis is that accurate I think I mean I'm I think I think I still might be in the midlife crisis I I like I feel like something goes on in your 40s where you really are compelled to look back at your life you You're halfway through life, right? So you're like, whoa, what's, what's going to happen for the next half? So you look back, you're kind of forced to look in the mirror. So there was that in a way. I think, I think at that

time, I don't know, I don't know if I would attribute that directly to like a midlife crisis. It was more just, it was more just feeling incredibly stressed and burdened and demanded by people. I felt like so many people needed me. I had a lot of teams around me, production teams, management teams, and a lot of people around me, a kind of ecosystem of people of which I was in the middle I'm sure you relate to that and I felt like I didn't want to be needed by so many people anymore um so my kids themselves were very needy and obviously needed to be needed um and I wanted to devote most of the needing to them and then also try and devote more time to have the space to try new things and learn. I think it can happen to everyone and I think when you're busy and when you are in a situation where you're just keeping things going, you're just trying to maintain life, you're trying to keep a business running, You're trying to keep your job going, trying to keep your kids happy. It's very hard to come out of the, of the chaos and look in. It's very hard to do that. So I spent a good, from about the age of 30 to about the age of 30, from 40, my entire

thirties, it was that. It was just maintenance. I was mad ambitious. Don't get me wrong. I wanted to get bigger. I wanted to get bigger I wanted to try everything and I fiercely wanted to prove that I could do it all but when it got to my second kid being about two I realized quite quickly that I just doing it all wasn't all it was cracked up to be and actually there was different ways to do it and what is all of it anyway what is doing it all I think there's something tremendously powerful in being a and feminist in being able to choose to step away from a high-powered job to look after your kids because it's a choice I was very lucky in that it was a choice

and I still worked don't get me wrong I love working I will never stop working but I just worked in a way that suited me that worked for my life as it was then that pivotal decision removes the not but in the the lead up to that decision was there fear I imagine there was a lot of people where I would assume there would be people telling you that you know or at least implying that you're making a wrong decision or was because I asked that question because I can imagine people listening to what you've just said and they're stood on the the edge of that that that decision themselves and they're looking into the darkness thinking I'll lose my friendship group I'll lose this I'll lose that it just feels like loss and stepping into uncertainty requires a certain level of courage or conviction or

in some cases a certain level of um pain conviction or a certain in some cases a certain level of um pain there's that quote I used to I used to love that said um change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change so for people that are stood there looking into uncertainty um can you tell can you tell them about how you felt in the lead up to that decision yourself was Was there fear? Was there doubt? No. No, wow. And there wasn't because I'd spent two years

trying to do the things that I wanted to do behind the scenes. And I knew with all my heart that I wanted to write. That writing was, it felt like coming home. It felt like the most wonderful feeling, discovering writing again. And I knew that the podcast had potential to be a business if I had the time to put into it. So there was this sense of kind of, um, uh, of, of knowing that the choices I'd made were right. I didn't feel scared leaving Radio One. I didn't feel scared making that decision because after I,

after I made the call to my boss to say I was leaving, I just felt the most huge sense of relief. And I always say that, you know, you've made the right decision. As soon as, as soon as you deliver that decision, you get a feeling afterwards. And that feeling tells you whether you've made the right decision or not. And I knew with that feeling of relief that I'd made the right decision. And, you know, I'd been there for 17 years, Steve. You know, it wasn't like I'd had the most amazing time. So I didn't feel like I was leaving too soon. I felt like I'd done a good innings, you know. So if anything, I felt at peace and I was just excited.

I was excited to get the news out, excited to move on and move forward. I've always been like that. I'm really impulsive. I'm really, ask any of my friends or my management team, and they will say I'm very impatient. I'm very impulsive. I want everything to happen now. So in a way, it was good to have time to make this decision

and to have time before it came out to the world to process it. But I genuinely didn't feel fear. And I would say for anyone who's standing on the precipice of change, the best power you can have is knowledge. So know what you're stepping into, you know, as much as you can. And you will feel better and stronger about walking away from, from what's come before. Part of the issue, I remember, um, Obama saying on stage when he spoke in Brazil, um, at this conference I was, I was at, um, he's, he talked about how in his role when

he, you know, when he went to get Osama bin Laden, that compound in Pakistan is you never have all the information ahead of time. Never. But that's, what's exciting. There has to be unknown. There has to be a sense of the unknown. That's terrifying for some people. Yeah. A certain type of person is trying to get to 100% certainty. Well, we all know 100% certainty.

There's no such thing. Only in hindsight, you get it. But I think there's something very life-affirming about not knowing everything. And something very important about being comfortable in that space of not knowing everything and something very important about being comfortable in that space of not knowing everything you can't control life you cannot control life as much as you try I have tried it's not possible at some point you have to relinquish control and allow allow yourself to move through life freely without trying to control everything around you and for me stepping into that there was definitely an unknown ahead but I knew enough to know that

I was going to be okay in terms of emotionally and psychologically and And that was okay. So I agree. I think fear of the unknown is undeniable and indisputable, but I think it's about allowing that fear to exist, acknowledging it, seeing it, allowing it and, you know, living with it to move forwards. Fear sometimes, you know, is healthy. It's a human instinct. It's important to feel it. 17 years with The Beeb. You became one of the best DJs,

one of the most well-known DJs in the whole of Europe. Tremendous success. Why you? When you look back and connect the dots, because, you know, there's very few people at that top table. There's a lot of people that want to be at that top table. There's a lot of people that would love, that are listening to this right now, and that would absolutely say they would want to take your career to sit at that table, the table you walked away from. Why from why you well I think essentially I was different because I was a woman um there wasn't that many women around um when I was starting out in the world of dance music

um so I mean there was women I don't and I'm by no means kind of saying that there wasn't, but there wasn't very many. So I think for Radio 1, they quite liked this idea of having a young woman join the station and do dance music. For them, they really liked the fact that I wasn't an expert. I wasn't tried and tested. I didn't have a reputation for being a huge global DJ. They wanted to employ someone that was representative of the audience. My initial tagline for my first show was like, I'm coming at this from the perspective of the dance floor as opposed to the DJ booth.

I'm a fan here. And then obviously I got the gigs off the back of that and then slowly that transformed into me being a touring DJ and, you know, Beath of Residencies and all of that biz. I do think that at the start of my career, there was a kind of, it felt a bit like a phenomenon because at the start,

at the front of all my shows, it was women, it was all girls. And everyone used to remark on that. And I used to love that. So I think there was a feeling of me bringing a different, maybe audience to the table. I was very amenable.

I was very, you know, ambitious. I was professional. I showed up. I did the work. I had a great team, an all-female team who worked really hard. I, I don't know. I think I can't tell you any more than that,

Steve. I don't know. I find it really, really hard. How long was your apprenticeship? How long did you, from the, from the day you first, you know,

DJ'd Spanner Track to when people the world knew your name. How long was that period? I mean, like, as in, like, I used to DJ around my friends' parties and stuff, like, just for fun from when I was about 20. And then I got my show on radio one in 2004 so um i would have been uh yeah it would have been maybe like three or four years yeah because when i got my show on radio when people knew my name immediately which was quite mad quite mad well it was just mad to be like even though i'd worked behind the scenes at radio and i'd seen ds it was just quite bizarre to be going from the assistant producer the person who made

the tea to then being like a DJ get an agent let's do a photo shoot you know it was just like whoa it's quite but actually the biggest shock for me was um going from working full-time to having one show a week and just being really like, well, because I love working. So I was a bit bored. So I had to find a way to make peace with being freelance, I suppose, and working in my own hours. Do you think your relationship with your work is healthy? Good question.

I do now, but it definitely hasn't been in the past. I've always worked from when I was 15. I really enjoy working. I've been hugely ambitious. So I had a sense of momentum that I felt like I had to you know I had to honor why I think there was a lot of pressure being uh female in what was essentially what felt like a man's world so I felt very uh like I wanted to prove that this was possible and that women could DJ and we could carry a crowd and we could carry a club night and an event and a festival and a residency, all of that biz. I felt like I wanted to prove a point basically. So there was that, but I also loved it. So it was kind of a combination of both a lot of the DJs at Radio 1 were really competitive as well so it's kind of you kind of sense that there's a sense of like wanting to be able to stand and be proud of your lot

and what you represent what you bring to Radio 1 you know um so that momentum like carried me all the way through from my mid twenties up to, yeah, up to being around 40 and then just kind of just so mad, like just, you know, stepping, stepping off that train. It's just, it's just crazy because you ask yourself all these questions. What, where was all that coming from? Why did I, why did I want to work so hard? Who was I trying to prove these things to, you know, but the fact of the matter is I did enjoy it. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to sit here and be like, it was awful. It wasn't, it was absolutely fucking amazing. So, um, I'm really grateful for it. But it was unsustainable. It was unsustainable for where I was at. And this is the thing that I've learned is that where I was at in my life, it didn't work at that time.

But as we know, life changes. Our situations change all the time. So I could go back to being a full-time touring DJ in five years and do my Ibiza residencies all over again. And I quite like having that openness. This doesn't have to be a closed book now. I could go back to broadcasting and doing like a daily radio show. It's about adapting with who you are at that time in your life and what you

need. And that's what I did. So for me, and it's only really in the last year that I've opened up to everything again. I think I'd been so blinkered, like, that's it now, radio's done. I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be a podcaster and I'm going to DJ now and again, the end. But now it's like, no, actually with Before Midnight, it's like, no, I can really, I can really flourish as a DJ. I can really make this last and, and blossom into something that's completely different than how I envisioned being a DJ as an older person. Same with, you know, radio. I could go back to that and find a whole new way of doing radio that feels amazing for who I am at that moment so I really like this feeling of

everything being open and attainable um according to where I'm at in my life with all of this um chaos yeah it's a good word because I think chaos is um going back to something you were talking about earlier the need for something to strive for in a sense of forward momentum it's funny i i wrote about how um how we go through lives thinking we're trying to reach stability having no goals everything's sorted but really we're actually trying to stay in chaos and it's kind of a paradox that when we reach stability we get psychological chaos and when we're in chaos we have stability like when our life when we're striving and when we reach stability, we get psychological chaos. And when we're in chaos, we have stability. Like when we're striving and when we have goals to complete and things are busy, we're stable.

But with all this chaos that you've chosen over the last, you know, 10 years, what's your mental health journey been like? I mean, the mental health journey has been pretty, it's been pretty okay. And I realize how lucky I am to say that, you know, I feel very grateful that I haven't suffered from depression or anxiety or anything like that in my life. Weirdly recently, like, and it's interesting that you talk about this idea of when you stop, then kind of you have chaos in your head. So I've experienced a bit of that in the last six months. And I think that is finally like a year after leaving radio. It's all kind of settled down and everything I've wanted to change has changed. And life is really safe. It's really predictable.

And I'm a little bit bored. So it's like I've had to be like, OK, you've got everything you want, but now you need a bit of chaos bored. So it's like, I've had to be like, okay, you've got everything you want, but now you need a bit of chaos again. So it's just constant tweaks. So I mean, I'm going out on the road again, there's things that are happening that will scratch that itch, it's fine. But I've also felt kind of like hormonally, just like, you know, I'm 44, I'm in perimenopause, this is all happening to me now. It's a whole different change in life. They call it the shift, you know, everything's changing there. So there's this sense of hormones kind of consuming you and taking over your mental health in a way that if you weren't aware of it, can be really scary and frightening and damaging. So I'm trying to educate myself as

much as possible about all of that stuff so that when it hits me, I know what's coming for me, you know, and I know what to do when it comes. I was talking to Gabby Logan about that in our last episode. Yeah, it's so insidious because it comes, it's so quietly, it kind of creeps in and it creeps in. And like, as Gabby said, like with moods, you know, you kind of quite your moods are more extreme. You don't deal with things as well. You kind you kind of get irritable more or angry or upset easier. But for me, I felt like, this is the other thing about perimenopause, it might come and then it will go for six months and then it come back again. So it's really, there's no regulation to it. So it's very hard to pinpoint, oh, that's it, you know? So what you have to do is be really across it and document

everything and then be able to zoom out and look and be like, well, that, that, that, that, okay, oh that's it you know so what you have to do is be really across it and document everything and then be able to zoom out and look and be like why that that that that okay it is it's perimenopause so that's what I'm kind of doing at the moment I'm documenting everything but um it's like I had a feeling recently of just feeling totally restless like oh my god not like insatiable like nothing was nothing was nothing was satisfying me. I couldn't, you know, I would exercise, I'd see friends, I'd go out, I'd be with the kids. I, you know, everything I tried, I just could not feel satiated and I did not understand it. And then I realized that it was a hormonal thing. So there's, there's so many things that you go through and it's like

a weird jigsaw puzzle but if you know what you're looking for it really helps and I actually have Davina McCall to thank for that because she sent me her book and she's been an incredible spokesperson for menopause and perimenopause and just getting information out there to people um I think she deserves some sort of you know national treasure status she's incredible for what she's doing i agree i think she's amazing she uh she dms me sometimes i still freak out because i think i'm saying such a fan oh my god it's divina off the telly on that on that point of um women related issues one of the the things i've heard you talk about is tokenism okay Okay. Yeah. I read an article you wrote,

I'm going to get this date wrong, maybe 2014 or 2016 in Vice. Oh, the Vice article. Yeah. How do you feel about the article? Your reaction was interesting. I feel, at the time I felt it and I meant it. So what I was arguing about was, you know,

a journalist who asked me what it was like to DJ in heels and, you know, kept referring back to the fact that I was a woman when I DJed and I was really I was pissed off about it it's like can you stop asking me about being a woman because you're not asking this to Pete Tong you know you're not asking this to other DJs um and then there was a there was a thing at the time where it was like this idea of doing like all female nights you you know, like just female only DJ nights. And I resisted that because at the time I felt like it didn't feel right to have to put us down to gender as opposed to ability as DJs. Like, why are you grouping all the women together?

Like, just let us all be DJs together, you know. You're either a good DJ or you're not, the end. There shouldn't be a gender issue. But obviously over the years, with the lack of, you know, women in the game, it was like I kind of had to like change my mind on that a little bit. Not change my mind. I still don't think that women are like DJs should be assessed

with regards to their gender. But if we need to have more women in the game, then yes, we should be encouraging any way that we can do that. And if that means putting loads of women on a lineup and reminding people how great women are as DJs, then go for it. So I think for a lot of my early career, it didn't even occur to me that it was, you know, there was, I mean, I knew there was a problem in that there wasn't a lot of women DJs and I was always delighted when there was other women around, but it didn't occur to me to be an activist about it and to shout about it and to

try and bring women through. There was one turning point I remember when I got asked to DJ at a festival and they wanted me to be a headliner and I looked at the lineup and the first 11 lines of names were all men and it was the 12th line where there was a female name and I remember emailing back to promoters who were all guys and saying who I knew and worked with it was like like, guys, like, come on, what's going on here? Um, and that was the first time I ever kind of answered, you know, it was just like, this isn't okay. Um, and then from then it kind of snowballed and I became a lot more vocal about it. Once it clicked that I actually had a bit of power and I could do something about it, you know? Um, and it's been a joy to watch because now there's so many amazing women

they're they're like killing it when you think about that the next chapter of your life if we sat here in 10 years time and i said um annie that was a really successful 10 years or you told me it was a really successful 10 years what would have it had to involve for that to be the case I mean this is fascinating because as I've got older my idea of what success is has completely changed success for me isn't numbers it's not tickets sold it's not um awareness it's not algorithms it's not anything like that success for me now is personal happiness personal happiness stems from feeling stimulated feeling as the people I love are in the best possible way that they can be in terms of living their lives. So that's success now. So if you were to tell me, you know, at the end of my forties,

that you had a successful decade for me that would mean that I felt I felt like um a sense of contentment and peace but also I felt alive I felt alive I always go back to that I think writing makes you feel alive because it forces you to put what's there down on paper and it forces you to look at what's in your head and it forces you to put what's there down on paper and it forces you to look at what's in your head and it forces you to figure things out. I think learning makes you feel alive. It makes your head tick. It challenges you. So it's that combination of kind of peaceful contentment, but also feeling like pushed and challenged in a way that isn't going to be damaging does that make sense yes it does okay good perfect sense right okay conversely then if

the next 10 years was unsuccessful and and you said to yourself you know i made the same mistakes again yeah what would that 10 years involve if it was unsuccessful and you made the same mistakes again I think it would be running away with a sense of what I should be doing as opposed to what I actually really want to do so let's take this for example let's say changes my podcast it would be it would be okay it's doing well so I want to double it I want to do two more episodes a week I want to double it I want to do two more episodes a week I want to try and be the biggest best podcast out there and and kind of doing that without the resources or without the team around me to do it taking on that responsibility

as opposed to just allowing it to grow kind of slowly as it is I would also be DJing way more. It would be trying to write a book every two years, which I have been doing. And I don't know if it's just that sustainable. And just, yeah, I guess kind of doubling down on all the work I'm doing and trying to be the best and the biggest at what I'm doing, as opposed to doing what I'm doing well and within my means. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. Yeah.

The question that's been left for you is, what is the pain you experience in your life that hurt the most, but you would not erase in hindsight um getting dumped when I was in my 20s yeah getting dumped um it was the biggest kind of experience like that and it was really important for me to know how that felt um to be on the receiving end of heartbreak um I was incredibly miserable but I climbed out of it and I think it was a real big lesson to know how that felt so yeah getting dumped in my 20s yeah why was it important to know how that felt so yeah getting dumped in my 20s yeah why was it important to

know how that felt because I'd always been the dumper I was always that person who kind of was able to up and leave and I'd never been on the other side of that isn't it the most excruciating pain in the world oh god it's just awful it's just ultimate rejection it's kind of very hard to see past it but yeah a lot of the world will know you as annie mack but more recently um you've really taken hold of your your full name annie mcmanus yes reclaimed it reclaimed why why so i don't know i just felt like i just, again, I went through this period of change, Steve, where I just like, I wanted to change everything. I got, it was like, okay, I've changed my job. Something so huge and what felt quite insurmountable at times to be able to

change that empowered me to want to change loads more. So writing this book, it genuinely, the first book I wrote, Mother, Mother, it felt like a whole different side of me. It felt like all of me. There's, you know, when you're, when, when, when I'm on the radio, well, first of all, when I'm DJing, no one really gets any of me apart from my music selections and the odd crowd surf if I've drank enough. But radio, there's also a very limited kind of surface level of me that you get, that you got, because I was only able really to talk about music most of the time. And yes, the tidbits of your life. But with this book, it felt like a real kind of sum of all of my parts. So it felt like a disservice to the book to give it that name. I was also very determined to try and call it by my full name in a contrary way, I suppose. My agent at the time would have probably said that,

like, surely you should just cash in on the fact that it's Annie Mack and people know you for that. But I really didn't want to do that. I wanted the book to be judged for the writing and for nothing else. I kind of did it all the way. I should have started with a memoir and then gone to a book, but I did it all. I wrote this strange kind of bleak novel about addiction and grief and a young girl growing up in Belfast. And it was so far removed from any perception of who I was as a kind of professional person. But I liked that because it kind of, it kind of set the bar for what I wanted to do with the writing I didn't want it to be influenced by anything that had come before I

wanted to be real and true and authentic to who I was as a person so it felt right to to give it my full name my born name well Annie I'm I'm really glad you did because I think it's somewhat symbolic of the journey you've been on so clearly in your life and your relationship with your own conviction and creativity and intuition which is creating ever greater ever more valuable art as you kind of the pendulum swings over to intuition and stepping into yourself and understanding who you are um but I can also tell from the conversations we've had that it's bringing you closer to your sense of like fulfillment in life and balance and all those things, which for many of us, we, we abandon in the pursuit as we're dragged away by our, our desire to fit in or momentum or our

success or whatever. And that's created some amazing writing. It's created amazing new ideas, as you talked about with your, your new format that ends at midnight. And it's very exciting to be on the receiving end of all of that art at midnight um and it's very exciting to be on the receiving end all of that art and creativity it's also very inspiring um your podcast is amazing thank you so much my best friend in the whole world he peppers me every day he says you need to listen to this episode in this episode he absolutely loves it my friend ash is my best friend um and i recommend everybody listening to this to go and check it out because if you if you love deep conversations if you love realness and vulnerability then you definitely will love changes thank you so much steve and and also like

everything i've talked about has been inspired by talking about change on a on a weekly basis that that is empowering learning from other people and how they change their life so i think that's helped me a little bit the podcast has helped me to be brave to change yeah me too yeah and yours is one of the real really important ones out there so everybody make sure you go listen to that i'm excited for your book coming next year thank you steve i know how terrifying that can be and how much work that is to create something like that so yes thank you thank you for your time thank you for the inspiration and um i'm as a fan i'm excited to see all the the wonderful things your passion and sort of intuition creates over the next decade. Well thank you for the lovely questions I can't feel like I just talked at you.

That's the point. I'm not here to talk people are sick of me but no thank you Annie. Thank you. Thanks. Quick one as you might know Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast and Crafted are a jewellery brand and they make really meaningful pieces of jewellery. The really wonderful thing about Crafted jewellery is it's super affordable, it looks amazing, the pieces hold tremendous meaning and they are really well made. I think I've worn this piece for almost a year, it hasn't broken, hasn't changed colour because it's really really good quality and it costs roughly 50 quid. People will be surprised when they hear that. They'll probably assume that all of my jewelry

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