The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - E28: Tobi Pearce - £100m in Revenue Aged 27

Episode Date: March 19, 2019

In this weeks episode of The Diary of a CEO, I sat down with Tobi Pearce, the CEO of SWEAT. Tobi describes SWEAT as the world’s biggest online digital gym, offering help and guidance for women with their fitness choices and health goals. Australian-born...

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly, to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened't know toby he's the ceo of sweat toby describes sweat as the world's biggest online digital gym it's a digital empire that offers fitness and health guidance for women toby's start to life was unconventional to say the least choosing to leave home at just 16 years old due to family and personal issues he set off in life to become a self-made entrepreneur he started off by working in a music shop before turning to personal training and this is where he met his now fiancee Kayla. Kayla if you don't know is known for being one of the world's biggest online fitness influencers. Their business was born in 2014 and through sweat

they're already generating hundreds of millions in revenue. They have a dedicated community of more than 20 million women using their products all around the world and the impact they've had on health and fitness is astronomical. Toby is smart, he's funny, direct, honest, driven, pragmatic. Toby is an exception. He thinks differently. He's the type of person you would bet on no matter what they decided to do. This is one of those conversations where I walked away smarter, more motivated and more inspired. And I know, and I hope that you will too. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Barlett, and this is the Diver CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. I don't really have questions as such, Toby,

but I wanted to thank you for joining me, first and foremost. Thanks for having me, mate. Making the time. I know you're a very, very busy man. I read through your story and I was quite, and this is just my honest opinion, I was quite shocked. I was shocked at the start you had in life and also how high you then managed to climb

from that start. Because I think if people read what I read, they would assume someone that has that start to life would then maybe go through life feeling sorry for themselves, you know? And we see that a lot, right? So I guess the first place to start is how was your start to life? Can you talk about your childhood? Yeah, a little bit, sure. I mean, so, yeah, probably late on in high school, you know what I mean? I kind of made the decision to leave home. So I was kind of living by myself from sort of 16 years old.

Yeah, definitely, yeah, which complicates things, I think. Why did you leave home? Just, I mean, like rough family environment, I think, to a degree. But I think, you know, and also, and this would probably kind of talk a little bit to, you know, my, I think, independence and problem solving or whatever. Like, I felt like I was always kind of in control of my destiny. And so at a point, you know, when I was like very, very young, I was kind of like, well, you know,

I'm not probably really that happy here now, but I think that I can control the outcome of that. What? Sorry to interject, but for me that point is really, really important because for whatever reason, and I've talked about this on this podcast before, I felt the same way. I did not know the future,

but for some reason I was arrogant enough to think that I would be completely fine. And I've, over the years, managed to kind of like look back and try and figure out why that was. But for you, why at 16 years old did you think you could control your own destiny? Yeah, I think, you know, and perhaps, yeah, maybe it's a little bit of shared arrogance

or it's the confidence, I mean, however you want to define it. And perhaps probably even a little bit of naivety, I think, at a young age. But I think that, to be honest, I think, what is an entrepreneur if not a problem solver? And so I think that literally even from the age of seven, eight, nine years old, I was always a really great problem solver and I also not only was good at it, but I actually really enjoyed it. You know, so not that I think that any kind of teenager really enjoys,

you know, the thought of leaving home. Yeah, but I was just kind of very confident that, you know, that I can kind of keep myself up on my own two feet. I'll figure out a way to, you know, get a job. I'll figure out a way to get through university and make a life for myself. And I think, you know, if anything, you know, that was like the challenge of succeeding was almost probably the largest motivator. Um, you know, like, so like I've, you know, I've gone through adversity.

It's like, but I'll come out the other side. Yeah. It'll be fine. But like, where am I going to be and how do I get there? Like, that's pretty stimulating challenge for me, I think. So. Did you have brothers and sisters? Um, yeah, one sister. Yeah. Um, but, uh, again, probably not, yeah, probably not really the, you know, the strongest relationship, but I think even from a very young age, like I was kind of quite introverted and, you know, like to myself and kept to myself. So, yeah. And was your relationship with your parents close?

Oh, I think, you know, probably with my dad, pretty good. Yeah, definitely for sure. Um, but I think, um, you know, stuff that was happening in and around my family and yeah, and yeah, totally respect that this is probably a little different for a teenager, but I was kind of just not really that patient with it. And I think as well, to be honest, even if that stuff had not been happening, I was always sort of the person that, to be honest, I probably would have left shortly after anyway.

I was always like, I've got to go on and do something. So you might have read online as well. I was in high school, kind of got asked to leave because I wasn't really doing much work at school. And then, yeah, eventually kind of in Australia you consider, you know, a stat test, which is called a stat test to get into university basically, but tested pretty good, got into uni and then just picked myself up and kind of went, you know.

Like I didn't have anyone telling me to go to university or like, you know, forcing me or paying for it. I just wanted to learn. Because I knew that basically in order to succeed in life at anything, a fundamental part of that is learning and working hard. So I just went ahead and did that and wanted to make the best of it for myself. So 16 years old, asked to leave school? Would have been 15 years old, asked to leave school

and then moved to another school and then sort of finished high school. Yeah, and then about six to eight months after that, yeah, probably sat that test to get into university and then sort of started picking myself up after that. And when you moved out of your house, presumably you didn't move out of your house with loads of funds. No, no, yeah. So I was actually working in a music shop. So I studied classical piano for the majority of my life. So, yeah, I was working in a music shop sort of selling pianos and selling sheet music about five or six hours a week for sort of 15 bucks an hour sort of thing.

So, yeah, I sort of had that. A couple of my friends were pretty helpful and sort of, you know, helped me to kind of bridge the gap. But I think I was able to pretty quickly like pivot out of that into figuring out like, you know, yeah, what do I want to do? You know, I want to study and learn like, you know, how do I pay for that study? You know, like how do I actually cover that cost and how do I find a job that's flexible? And I was like, oh, well, you know, I really like the health and fitness

industry and I'm training in the gym a bit. So like I'll go and do a personal training course. And then, you know, like literally from there, everything kind of really picked up massively. So, you know, a matter of months after that, like I was, you know, personal training in a gym, you know, sort of within six months of that, like I'd started, you know, sort of my first business. I was running my own business as a personal trainer in a gym, but also sort of then went out and started doing bootcamps and running bootcamps with women outdoors. Um, another sort of six months after that, had my second franchise and another six months after that on Kayla and I had our first online business together. Um, so the momentum really picked up when I kind of took things into my own hands and got on the front foot as opposed

to, yeah, like, you know, the other way that someone can go through adversity is, yeah, choose to feel sorry for themselves or whatever. But that's a very, that's a very slow sort of depressing path. Yeah. Not one that I really think that I wanted to go on. So. And so, um, you've, you go to university, you graduate when you're how old? Didn't graduate uni. Didn't graduate. No, so I got about two and a half, three years in, I think. Yeah, and then sort of had started the online business

that was doing sort of about 10 million a year at that point and like highly profitably. So I was sort of like, oh, like, well, yeah, I'll defer uni. Because at this point in time, it was, you know, critically and to be kind of frank, it was like, what's the ROI on my time? Like, what return on investment do I get? Like, I can go to university for however long

to learn in a structured environment. Or I could put that on, you know, time out temporarily. I can force my own learning quicker by doing online courses or reading books. And I can run a business on my own terms. You know, so the long-term plan wasn't necessarily to never go back to university, but it was more about, well, these opportunities don't always come along and when you get an opportunity, you got to go.

So you dropped out. Yeah. So yeah, deferred initially and then sort of a year and a half later, we were doing about, you know, 25 million a year in revenue. And then I was, yeah, obviously sort of just like, well, I think, you know, again, like, you know, same situation again, but sort of a year to 12 to 18 months later, like, what's the ROI on my time? You know, do I go back to university for another two and a half years and slow down my business?

You know, what would happen in two and a half years if I was spent like 150%, you know, like at this company? Like, what would that actually be? And then, you know, so about another year and a half later, we're doing sort of $50 or $60 million in revenue, and another year and a half later we're doing $50 or $60 million in revenue and another year and a half later it's kind of now what we're doing, about $100 million in annual turnover plus.

Yeah, trying to grow still. So one of the things, by the way, that's fucking impressive. Just before I transition onwards. One of the things that I get asked all the time is I'll get messages from young kids that are at university now and they either have an idea, they're either working on an idea on the side.

Often there's very little traction and they're asking me the question, Steve, shall I drop out of university? What's your advice to them? Yeah, well, I mean, look, so I think in that situation, there's probably not going to be one rule or one size fits all, right?

I mean, my thought process was pretty logical, you know, sort of like, basically, am I making enough money right now that I can actually justify not going to university, like when compared to basically what job I would be able to get after that? You know, am I going to potentially yield a significantly larger benefit by not going to uni in the short term? Like, yes, like I probably think so. And I guess also, what's the opportunity cost of going to uni? See if I was to go to uni, regardless of the money, let's actually forget the dollar amount. It was more like these type of opportunities and business opportunities are, I wouldn't necessarily say once in a lifetime, but when they're here,

they're here. And if you don't take that opportunity and you don't get on the front pool, then it's gone. So I think for You know, so I think, I think for people that are in university now, you know, if you've already started running a business and you're already getting your revenue and you're already like getting growth, you know, I think it's kind of up to them to determine at what point, you know, for some people it could be 200 grand a year. For some people it could be 20 million a year. You know, it really depends. It depends on the intensity of the business and depends on the intensity of the learning um and also i think as well like you know if you drop out of university and then all of a sudden you're not studying like you're not

reading you're not watching videos online like you're not like forcing yourself to learn well if you need university to be the thing that actually causes you to grow then i'd probably keep going but for me like i was like i could actually learn a lot quicker by not being at university. And that's like literally what's happened, you know? So I'll read sort of like 50 to a hundred books a year, you know, podcasts, travel, networking, whatever, like they're for me and my mindset, far more valuable learning opportunities. So I wouldn't say there's like a one size fits all. I think it's kind of balancing the odds. I know you, you meant, I completely agree. You mentioned there that you read 50 to 100 books a year. Whenever someone mentions books on the internet ever,

the first question people ask is, what's your favourite book? So I'd be remiss if I didn't. Yeah, so I think at different points in time, different books. I think for me, over the last probably two years, probably two books, I think one of them is Good to Great by

Jim Collins, which is really a really good, almost in some ways, statistical analysis of the reason why businesses have gone, you know, like top 100 businesses in the world, how they went from being effectively good businesses to becoming great companies that stood the test of time. And so for me, that was really kind of eye-opening about, well, you know, the approach to business should obviously

very often be about sustainability, not just growth. Yeah, so I think that was really critical. And then, you know, probably, you know, the approach to business should obviously very often be about sustainability, not just growth. Yeah. So I think that was really critical. And then, you know, probably, you know, more, more specific like subject matter, but like, you know, there's a book, really, really clever guy called Tian Zhu who runs a company called Zora and they're basically a subscription, like subscription business, subscription management software. And he wrote a book called Subscribed and it's sort of just a really, really enlightening

view on like modern business models and like how the effectively the subscription economy is going to change business in a really big way. So, um, cause we run in subscription business, that was really, really good for us. Yeah. And, um, going back to the business you started in university that started making 10 million, $20 million a year. Um, talk to me about that and what business that was. And yeah, yeah, sure. So basically after we've been running a couple of boot camps and Kayla was doing, we were doing studio, like running a PT studio, we entered the online world selling e-books.

So this was sort of like really early 2014 almost. Yeah, Instagram's kind of new thing and e-books are sort of there but sort of not. And in the fitness industry, definitely not really. Yeah, so we kind of we had we had a lot of people online effectively we we generated a decent fan base to to effectively lead generate for boot camps but then what started to happen was obviously you can't just build fans in kind of one suburb you know so the fans online sort of started being like oh we've got some in

america some in russia some in you know wherever and they were like oh like well you know i see your client transformations and i see your workouts. It looked really cool. Like, I want to do that. So we kind of, yeah, just wrapped it up all up in an ebook, you know, a couple of hundred pages, packaged it with a whole bunch of like what we believe to be kind of almost mandatory, like education material and sort of, you know, put it on a website that we built that was really gross and barely worked and crashed all the time and whatever. But yeah, pushed out on the internet and then sort of off it went. So, you know, we were, to be honest, like really surprised.

We launched it and said in the first week probably generated more revenue and sales than what we would have done in like six months in our existing business. Obviously, the initial emotion is like, yes, like that's amazing. But then it's kind of like, oh, but what about next week? You know, and then so that was, and that, I think to be then it's kind of like oh but what about next week you know and then sure so that was and that i think to be honest that kind of almost fear but like critical view of you know what's next and what's coming for the business is probably what kind of helped us to take it from just like a here's an idea into like it's an actual legitimate business so i didn't really introduce kayla yeah yeah so i probably should take take a step back and introduce kayla obviously i know but i'm not sure everybody listening knows. Who is Kayla?

So Kayla's my fiance, but she's a personal trainer. So Kayla had seen us and we started dating sort of probably about a year, year and a half before we sort of started working together, at least online. But yeah, she was like, we went to market effectively with her brand, like her name is a brand to sell what was initially the Bikini Body Guide. So there's now become an app, obviously. But yeah, she was the face and the name of everything that we did in New York sort of for the first few years and is now currently, well, Forbes recently named her the most influential sort of fitness icon in the world, which is pretty amazing. But yeah, she's having a massive impact on the space.

You've just recently announced that she's got a baby on the way? Yes, yeah. So we got engaged sort of beginning got a baby on the way yes yeah so we got engaged sort of beginning of last year um and then yeah we're currently pregnant um due in the uh eight weeks and five days oh wow yeah so pretty soon yeah and how long have you guys been together uh coming up six and a half years and you've been working in business for the same period about five five yeah so i mean even really early when, um, you know, Kayla was doing her personal training and I was doing mine, like we kind of, we had this sort of shared and parallel kind of view on like women's fitness and workouts and client engagement, except I also kind of had

this really deep like passion for business, you know? So, um, yeah yeah even like really early on in our relationship it was more just kind of i'd help her problem solve certain stuff in her business but then she'd have this really great idea about content we could create or you know different workouts we should do and so it was kind of a really you know the perfect partnership in some ways like in that way really early on and we knew each of our strengths and we kind of stuck to that so and what's it like doing business with someone that you're romantically involved with? Yeah, sure. Yeah, the question we get asked all the time. I think, yeah, probably to be clear, like early on, it was very different to what it is now. You know, it's like now, like,

I don't really see her at all during the day. Like, it's not like we're in meetings together, you know, I'm more so doing the business stuff and what's coming next and whatever for the whole organization. And she's obviously kind of more critically focused on her own brand. But I think, you know, early on there's definitely kind of some, you know, like sometimes there's tension or more, you know, kind of discussion about certain stuff. But I think we've been really fortunate. Like we've, to be honest, probably never really,

I don't think we've ever really actually argued about business or anything like that. And I think that really comes down to my role in this is X and her role in it is Y. We're both going to have the trust in one another that we're going to dominate in those two areas and that's that. Kayla did a post on Facebook that I've got here. Do you know which post I'm referring to?

No, I don't. There's a lot of posts there. It's a post about you. Yeah. She says, on Toby's profile it says he was expelled from school, but people always think this is a bad thing. Toby was actually asked to leave school because he spent a lot of his time being bored

and yes, this made him a little distracting to others. He is a genius. I'm not saying that because I think he's smart. He really is a genius with an amazing mind he was studying classic piano from age 4 sorry if this is making you a little bit embarrassed and was at university level by 13 years old

he is able to work on mathematical problems in a matter of seconds, he has a photographic memory he can analyse a person or a situation and know everything that is going to happen next he can finish your sentences which he says is sometimes annoying. He can fix anything, learn new languages in a few months. Nothing is too difficult for him. And as amazing as this sounds, he thinks this is a burden sometimes.

Why is that a burden? There's a lot going on up in my head, I think that's for sure. But I think Kayla's very generous with her words. Of course. off my head I think that's for sure but um I think Kayla's very generous with her words of course yeah but um yeah I mean well I don't know about the stuff about me being being really clever or whatever but you know the stuff about you know the piano and whatever like that's all true like I definitely did that stuff and was um yeah effectively kind of doing the equivalent to concert piano level performance when I was sort of 13 years old and yeah just kind of the way I

was always into problem solving except before it was always how it was. The burden part, what does she mean? What is she referring to? Yeah, so I think... I've heard a few people refer to their own mental sort of cognition as a burden. Elon Musk is one of them. Yeah. Yeah, I think probably kind of, well, probably two things.

I think fundamentally there's so much traffic, you know, like in your mind there's so much information going in and out and it's literally also 24 hours a day, 7 days a week it never ever really stops and I think also as well something I've been really trying to work hard on over the last 12 months as a leader, that communication

is really hard when there's so much stuff going on in your head or when something seems really simple and obvious and you've clearly got the answer, but trying to communicate that to other people who, for whatever reason, might not be as strong in that field or it might not make as much sense to them, that barrier can sometimes be a little frustrating.

And especially early on in a business, you're trying to move it a million miles an hour. Not that that's really changed. You're still trying to move it a million miles an hour, but you're trying to really move super, super fast. But when you're the person sitting there and the vision is really clear to you and you can see all the answers and what I want to like to write in front of you, but then you've got a team of people who are doing their best to keep up with you

and like, of course, they're doing a great job. But trying to bridge that gap can sometimes be kind of, you know, like painful in some ways. And especially then when you couple that with someone like me who I'm kind of self-confessed extremely impatient. I was going to say, patience is what we're talking about. Yeah, exactly right. Brian's going a million miles an hour, really impatient.

There's a bridge that you've got to cross. So sometimes it can be a bit of a burden, but it is what it is. I don't get it. Because when you say that, I completely get it. But then I also know my friends that are CEOs of big companies like Umar, who leads Pretty Little Thing. And I had the same conversation with him last week in LA. And he is the same.

I said to him, you're the most impatient person I know. And I watch him get frustrated to the point of his face going red. Because Umar will decide something. He'll have a vision and know it, and the problem is he needs his team to do it. Yeah, it's the lag factor. It's no different to, I don't know, for anyone listening who's ever done online gaming,

it's like you're playing Call of Duty or something and you start lagging. It's literally the same thing. It's the frustration. And how have you, this is just advice for myself, how have you come to deal with that? Yeah, look, I think, to be honest, it's kind of like most things. I think becoming aware of that first and understanding

what the deficit or surplus is in that particular area is really critical. So for me, being aware of that and then communicating that to my team. So like, cool, my brain goes a million miles an hour. If you don't understand something or it doesn't make sense, me um you know being aware of that and then communicating that to my team so like cool like my brain goes a million miles an hour if you don't understand something or it doesn't make sense just ask yeah like and sometimes something as simple as like actually open the door for people to have an opinion or to be able to ask a question is actually really critical because you know as a ceo like you know the person that's very often making the decisions or alternatively at least like setting the vision you know sometimes people kind of want to just take what you say you know immediately yep cool but they're afraid to actually ask what

that means and kind of validate it for themselves um so i think you know the awareness and allowing that type of communication with your team members is really important but um at the end of the day i think it's it's it's much like a lot of things in life you know whether it be health and fitness or learning or whatever like it really is a discipline you know like at the end of the day it doesn't matter how smart you are or how fast your brain can go or if you've got all the answers or whatever. If you can't bring other people along for the journey and you can't get them motivated about it

and you can't get them to understand it clearly, it doesn't really matter. You know, so the discipline to be patient, which is sometimes very difficult, but the discipline to be patient, you know, and consider it and communicate is really the foundation for success there. And in Kayla's post on our Facebook page,

she says a lot of very, very nice things about you and points to, I guess, a number of attributes about you that might be responsible for your personal success. But from your perspective, why do you think that you've been successful in the way that you have? I'm talking personally in terms of not opportunity or timing or Instagram. I mean, on a personal level, what are the attributes of you as a person?

Yeah, so I think, yeah, I mean, categorically, probably a few things. I mean, you would have heard these a thousand times, I'm sure, and you're kind of speaking to other leaders and CEOs. But I think, you know, like, I think the basic one is about you need to work hard. Like, I think that's a thing. And for me, like, working hard is not a learned behavior. Like it's actually just inherent to who I am, you know, so working multiple jobs or working long hours or working whatever,

like I think outside the bounds of the kind of traditional nine to five, you know, like yesterday was more like a five to nine, you know, sort of thing. You know, so I think, you know, the hard work is definitely a thing. The discipline I mentioned as well is definitely a thing um the discipline i mentioned as well is obviously a really critical thing as well because discipline is kind of you know when you're working hard but you get tired and you want to stop like that's what's going to kind of perpetuate the momentum um because really at the end of the day it's about building momentum and maintaining it and you know so having the discipline and the drive is really the two things

they're going to keep that going um i think really like outside of that a lot of things kind of cascade from that you know like it's the like you know learning and self-development like well that's still like you've got to be driven to want to learn and you've got to be disciplined to keep learning you know I think surrounding myself with like really really you know highly intelligent and experienced people as well to help again perpetuate the momentum has been really critical but I think everyone everyone kind of has their own secret sauce you know and I think if I had to get kind of out of the you know the generalist you know sort of stuff like I think you know, and I think if I had to get kind of out of the, you know, the generalist, you know, sort of stuff, like I think, you know, probably my greatest strength is being really like detail oriented and really strong in information architecture. And so what I

mean by that basically is that a lot of people would probably describe me as OCD, like highly OCD. Um, but I would just describe that as highly specific about what I want. Um, you know, and I think on the information architecture thing about being able to frame things in a way that makes sense and being able to organize things in a way that makes sense for a lot of people kind of breaks down the barriers again, like I mentioned before, for communication to generate that momentum for the team. Awesome.

And you're a very young business person. We talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but it's not always easy as a young person to get into business because um you're i guess you have more to prove um yeah people expect less from you yeah sure i also think in some respects that them taking you for granted creates an opportunity as well in some respects talk to me about what it's like being a young person trying to get into business and your experiences of that. Well, yeah, I think obviously it depends who you're in the room with, but I think there's definitely some pretty savage experiences.

I've literally shown up to a meeting before going to walk with someone and literally just been like literally marched out because 30 seconds into the meeting they're like, you're just a kid, don't care. It doesn't actually matter what you're talking you're just a kid don't care like it doesn't actually matter like what you're talking about they don't like some people generally don't care and you know that's a very like kind of broad stroke you know like remark but there are genuinely some people that just don't care um you know like if you walk into a meeting room you're sort of 20 25 years old they just don't really value your opinion um yeah but i think yeah without being negative on the opposite end

of the spectrum there's also some people that are tremendously welcoming you know and so i think um you know again like part of part of the journey is you know having the resilience to survive what you know probably the the shitty meetings you know the shitty people that you network with you know and to try and find the you know the rose amongst the thorn type situation you know like where is the where is the person that doesn't judge me for my age or for my you know lack of knowledge in certain areas you know because i think part of being young as well or of any age is you might be an expert in whatever, software engineering and product development, but you might not know anything about finance, you know, and like, so you're going to meet with an accountant

or whatever. And like, because you're actually doing really well at something, there's kind of a preconceived like expectation that like, oh, well, you must think you're pretty good. But then when you come into a meeting vulnerable, like, oh, I don't actually really know a lot about this, but I really want to learn. They kind of get almost taken back by that. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's, it's, it is hard in some ways being a young person, like trying to do business, but I think it's only as hard as you let it be hard for yourself. You know, like at the end of the day, you can get emotional about that and emotional about a lot of things in business,

or you can kind of just go brush it off and kind of move on to the next thing, you know? So you started when you were 21, 22? Yeah. Well, I mean, I started as a PT, like actually running my own business at probably like 19. Um, but yeah, I mean, it really started to, you know, like pick up and get kind of more serious around 21 years old. Um, which yeah, like, you know, you're, you're traveling the world and even not, we're fully bootstrapped organization, but like, I think, you know, met with a lot of investors sort of around that age as well. And some of them are certainly more forthcoming than others, that's for sure. And you mentioned that there's a lot of savage times.

Much of the, well, I think anyway, I think because of various films and Instagram quotes and all these kinds of things, a lot of people see entrepreneurship as being a pretty rock star thing, like jet skis, lots of holidays, private jets, money, cars, everything in between. And do you agree or disagree?

Yeah. I think that we live in a society and generation where things are probably or definitely hyped up a little bit. Yeah, and I think as well, like a lot of people want to yeah and well maybe rightfully so they're really proud of what they've achieved and they really want to show that off and whatever but i think that i think that that being set as the benchmark for you know the aspiration for a lot of our generation is probably what the actual mistake is so i think you know showcasing it and being proud of course is cool that's one thing but i think if you're someone who is not in that position and you're at the very beginning of your journey i think aiming for that

is actually the wrong you know the wrong aim like in a multitude of different ways um yeah i'm sure you know probably yourself and an abundance of other people that you know like there's this you know having money is cool and having things and whatever is cool or not whatever but ultimately there's a really really really distinct realization that happens kind of early on in the journey and And that is that that's not like, and as much as other people want to argue, that's not actually going to bring you joy in life at all. You know, like the thing that brings you joy is the journey. It's every win that you get and not necessarily just the win about money. It's the win about progress that you've made. You've just hired a really elite person who's going to like just add massive gains to the business, you know, like whatever. It's all

those little wins that are actually the good things. You know, the car and the house and the private jets and the whatever, like, yeah, that's cool and it's fun for about 30 seconds and whatever. But after a while, like, who are you really actually pleasing? Is that pleasing yourself or is that pleasing other people would probably be my argument. At what point did, on that point of money, if I gave you, this is basically yes or no question is if I give you another million quid now, would you be happier? No, not at all. Um, at what point did your happiness, uh, stop scaling based on income?

Yeah. Look, I think, um, yeah, I don't think that I'd be able to say like, Oh, it was at this dollar point. Yeah. Um, but I think that, I think that really there was probably a realization as Kayla's brand started to lift off and we started to make this pivot into the app that was like it then everything just became so exciting. And to be honest, not that I think that any accountant

or financial controller would want to hear this, but you almost forget about the money. Really, it's just a measuring stick. Like did we win this quarter better than last quarter? Like that's the grade, yes or no, right? Yeah, but I think like for me, you know, like I was literally just dumped into the middle of like learning software engineering and learning marketing and user experience and automation and whatever.

And for me, that was like literally the best part of the journey and still is the best part of the journey. Like I got to learn all of this like, you know, like front, you know, kind of like leading world class sort of stuff that otherwise I wouldn't be exposed to. You know, and for me, that's an epic part of it. And, you know, like being here today, like meeting someone like yourself, same age,

like killing it in a completely different space. Like that stuff is actually worth it. You know, that's the memory that I'll be able to talk about even if I have zero dollars one day. Sure, yeah. But you can't, like when you do have zero dollars one day sure yeah but you can't like when you do have zero dollars potentially in the future you're not going to look back and be like oh it was so great when I had all that money you know like because that's going to be depressing right but

like you're being able to go back and be like oh yeah we achieved this like you know we run boot camp tours for a hundred thousand women around the world like yeah like we literally changed the space like that's awesome you know um and that's going to last forever yeah that won't ever like won't ever fade and i think i know the answer to this question um but are you scared of losing it all um look i think that anyone would be lying if they said no you know um yeah i think there'd be different reasons why people are fearful that's for sure but i think like you know i think to be honest and again like part of a good entrepreneur and the thirst and drive for success is probably a fear of failure. I don't think it's necessarily a fear of like losing a dollar in the bank account, but it's more about like, it's a fear of going backwards. It's a fear of slowing down. It's a

fear of the product not being as good. It's a fear of, you know, not being the front runner, you know, like all of those things. Like, I don't think that that's something that anyone's going to be happy about. That's for sure. But I think. Like, I don't think that that's something that anyone's going to be happy about. That's for sure. Um, but I think, yeah, I don't think that would necessarily for me specifically have anything to do with money. It's more about progress. You know, like my, my, my obsession and my drive is for progress, not for dollars. And what, what is your, your longterm aim then? If you're obsessing over progress, what is, you know is 10 years progress to you? What does that look like?

So, yeah, if we zoom in a little bit on the business, so yeah, Sweat is, Sweat effectively we kind of define as a digital gym. So how does Iris be the world's biggest digital gym? We view the fitness industry basically as being fragmented. So like there's big box gyms, there's 24-7s, there's your SoulCycle and F45 boutique experiences, and then there's hundreds and thousands of fitness apps and trainers and whatever online. The last segment of that is the segment that we play and how do we aggregate all of that.

When you think about music, you think about Spotify. If you think about entertainment or movies, you think about Netflix. When you think about music, right, you think about Spotify. You know, if you think about entertainment or movies, you think about Netflix. You know, when you think about working out, you don't think about anybody, right? So in five or ten years' time, when you think about working out, you'll think about sweat. Okay.

Love it. I'm sold. Let's take a step back. So when I say hard times, what's the first thing that comes to mind? All the first things. Probably the very first launch of our app. Probably to summarize that in really short,

go into this project to launch an app to pivot the business. Expect to spend $200,000 to $250,000 building it. Spend the better part of three quarters of a million. business, expect to spend sort of $200,000 to $250,000 building it, spend sort of the better part of three quarters of a million, you know, hope it's going to take sort of 12 to 14 weeks, takes you kind of the better part of a year. You know, so after all that time and all the extra money and effort that's gone into it, you finally get to launch day and you're like, oh, like, this is great. Like, people are going to love this.

Like, it's going to be a really big win. The company is just going to go to the next level. You press that big red button to go live. And then the first 24 hours you kind of get 25,000 complaints. Yeah. So, you know, when you get a team of sort of like at this point, maybe 20 or 25 people who have like literally worked their ass off for a year and they're all looking at you like, why didn't it work?

Yeah. And then you've also got 25,000 consumers looking at you like, well, that was crap. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think there's, you know, there's the, what we were just talking about, there's the fear of like, shit, like, did I just mess this up? Like, did I just, did I just break everything? Yeah.

And then there's the, what the hell am I going to say to the staff that are here? And then there's the, well, we've actually also got 25,000 members, you know, that we kind of need to like, you know, service and be like, provide a good experience to like, and everyone literally is looking at you. Yeah. So I think like at that point in time, that's, yeah, when you talk about, you know, fear or you talk about like hard times or whatever, like for me, that's probably one that's kind of stitched into my memory pretty, pretty well. Yeah. Is there another? Um, there's, I mean, there's plenty, but I think, yeah, maybe, maybe something like, you know, something as fearful, like every business

goes through kind of like, you know, difficulties, like, you know, setting things up, like getting your website URL, like, you know, whatever. And like, so I wouldn't really say there's not necessarily like, Oh yeah, like another like massive one. But I think there's, there's, there's probably like tens or hundreds of like small things like that that you know a lot of people kind of you either don't remember along the way or whatever like it's it's the only thing that matters at that point in time but then like two weeks later when the next one comes up like that's the only one that matters but so i think um you're along the journey there's there's you're constantly faced with these like what at the time they feel like kind of world crushing events um

and they kind of are in many ways, you know, emotionally and mentally. But then, you know, sort of two to four weeks later, you're already on to the next one. And what have you learned about hard times because of that? Because they happen so frequently in the world that you've put yourself in. Yeah, yeah. In hindsight, if someone's going through a hard time or if they encounter a hard time,

someone like yourself who has very much, um, very much, uh, sped up the amount of hard times that they experienced by stepping outside of your comfort zone. What, um, insight can you give us into hard times? Sure. So, I mean, well, yeah, first and foremost, it is totally okay to be emotional and it is like you should at all times be aware and conscious and, you know, feel your emotions. However however no matter how emotional you are your emotions will never ever fix the problem interesting right you know so it doesn't matter like how sad you are doesn't matter how angry you are just like that that's you know short short of that motivating you to solve the problem that's not actually going to fix the

problem you know so like you know and you know this is probably kind of referring back to my my ocd and my detail sort of thing but you know my mind will kind of go like oh like that sucks shit okay cool so the solution for the problem is blah right like and that's really the way that my brain works so yes I think that you know people are going through like repeated amount of hard times like it's cool like and you need to have an outlet and like sometimes people need to complain and they need to vent and whatever their friends and family but I think again it's kind of like a discipline do that time out and then go and win, right? Because the reality is like you could dwell on one problem

for six months or a year even. You could be really upset about it. But all that time you spent being emotional and upset about it is just wasted time you could have been making progress. Yeah, so like, you know, I think, you know, a lot of people would probably refer to, you know, a lot of like really successful people and, you know, maybe me as an entrepreneur as well as probably kind of intense.

But it's that intensity to move and intensity to win and intensity to kind of frog leap your problems is what generates, again, it generates a momentum and perpetuates the growth of the organization. I think if you have a leader in your organization or if you are the leader of your organization and you want to sit there for weeks and weeks and weeks on end kind of complaining about the problem like you've not really achieved anything you know so do you have um i think everybody does but you have people within your organization uh let me reframe this question because i don't want to make it about

your organization but have you have you worked with people across and i don't even really know if this is a question i'm basically just saying this and seeing what you think about it um i've worked with people over the last couple years maybe over the last five years where when something bad happens say the room is on fire they'll be the type of person who will repeatedly let you know that the room is on fire right and they'll scream the room is on fire the room is on fire they'll tell their team the room is on fire they'll tell everybody they can that the room is on fire yeah um and there's another type of person who uh will be in a room that's on fire and instead of saying it because it's clearly

obvious the fucking room is on fire and that's not helpful right now they'll be solely focused on how we get out of the room yeah right um and i've always thought that the type of people that as a ceo you have to give the leadership roles to are the type of people that are the solution orientated ones because um the the first type of person who will just say that the room is on fire, if they're given a leadership role, because emotions can be quite contagious in business, the worry is they will pass those emotions through the organization.

Well, it's a fact, right? So statistically, 70% of the emotion and behavior of a team and an organization is stimulated by that of their leader. So like regardless, you know, whether it's a leader right at the top of the organization or whether it's a leader who's managing a team of four people, yeah, those four people will still inherit behaviors from their leader, right? So I couldn't agree more.

You know, the second person sounds like someone you want to hire, right? The first person sounds like someone, yeah, not only do you probably not want them in a leadership role, but you probably, again, being savage, but you probably don't really want them in your organization at all. Because the reality is, even if they're not responsible for driving and leading the team, they're still sitting next to someone. And that someone's still sitting next to someone. And that someone's still sitting next to someone.

It is in many ways a compounding domino effect. And I think it's those conversations, it's the water cooler conversations and whatever, like everything that kind of creates and perpetuates culture. Like, you know, I mean, we, we again would probably say that we're, we're pretty hard on that. You know, it's end conversation. What's the solution? And then if it's continuous, yeah, it's on fire, it's on fire, it's on fire. It's probably like, well, maybe we need to have a discussion about how you deal with problems. Why? And then if not, fine. And that doesn't mean that they're a bad person.

It just means that your workplace and environment and your team, whatever, is not necessarily for them. I think a lot of people would view terminating an employee or whatever as a bad thing. And I think in some ways, if you're fired, get out. That's probably a little mean. You should always shy on the side of caution with an employee and be there to support them, of course.

But if an employee, if you identify and they can also agree and identify that the workplace is not right, it's like a bad relationship. Don't force it to remain together. You could be better off apart. I completely agree. I didn't know that stat as well, so I'm going to use that a lot, that 70%. I need to research that.

One of the things that Kayla wrote on her Facebook post was that sometimes people think you're arrogant. Explain that to me, I've got a question on that point, but what does she mean? I think any person that's in a room that's extremely certain about what they want and extremely certain about the solution can sometimes, confidence can very often be mistaken for arrogance. I think probably what I would delineate as being the key differentiating factor there really would be

that someone who's confident is someone who, you know, perhaps maybe has the answers or believes in their own abilities but has something that actually can validate that. You know, so like, you know, a professional golfer can be confident in their ability to put a ball in, right? You know, whereas if you've never played golf in your life and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to smash you, you're going to get holes in ones, that's probably more so arrogance because you don't actually have the Whereas if you've never played golf in your life and you're like, oh yeah, I'm going to smash you, you're going to get holes in ones,

that's probably more so arrogance because you don't actually have the experience and you've never done it before. I think there's a gray area there somewhere in between about how you communicate that and how you show yourself and how you show up to things. But I think that generally speaking, colloquially, people who are extremely confident

and who are maybe not known so well by someone else that can very often come across as arrogance sure yeah and that that often attracts a lot of um hate yeah there's a topic i wanted to talk about with you generally because i've i mentioned it in my last podcast was about the topic of haters yeah and i i know i don't know that you've had any haters because i've not for sure yeah but i'm sure you have right and um i think in today's age where we're all connected and we get to see a lot into other people's lives and had any haters because i've not for sure we have yeah but i'm sure you have right and um i think in today's age where we're all connected and we get to see a lot and tell the people's lives and read their stories in an instant i think um everybody has haters people that will especially successful people right um so what's your what's your view on that and have you had haters that

literally no matter what you do will just say you're a piece of shit? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, yeah, well, the famous saying is haters going to hate, right? That's going to happen kind of regardless of who you are. And to be honest, you don't even need to be successful, like in Power View Measure Success, whatever that is, right? But you don't even need to be successful to be hated, right? I think that the reality is that, yeah and maybe this is like you know shock horror to society but we don't actually all need to get along and be best mates you know like

now just to add some flavor to that you know we shouldn't all hate each other as well right but i think but not getting along and not being best mates doesn't mean that you hate one another right you know and i think that that in in society and you know social media perhaps perpetuates this a little bit but i think that's kind of what the viewers are some people. It's like you're the best mates or you hate each other. There's no kind of like in between. But I think being successful, maybe let's just use it as the limelight, right? If you're in the limelight, you're in the media or you're online or you've got fans or whatever,

like most people that are going to be haters probably don't actually even know you. They've probably never even met you, right? You know, so I think that, and again, it's kind of like how they deal with your problems that we were talking about before. Like, I think that, you know, people are going to leave you abusive and, you know, probably, you know, dumb comments on your page or whatever if they don't know who you are just because they've got an opinion and they're a keyboard warrior and that's cool

and they feel they need to express themselves. You know, I think it's the person who's, you know, being hated, you know, or being hated on or whatever, it's their decision to kind of be like, well, am I going to engage with that and waste my time and emotional energy, like actually like justifying that? Or am I confident in myself and who I am as a person? I'm just going to leave it and move on. You know, so I think hate and jealousy and whatever is inevitable, but again, do you want to waste time dealing with that? Or do you want to spend your time getting more gains?

Yeah, and hate comes in various forms from various different people, but sometimes it comes a little bit closer to home. I think hate's probably not the right word, but let's say just negativity generally. The other one of the most popular messages i get into my inbox is from young people who have an ambition or a business they want to start a project they want to pursue or a career and their mom dad boyfriend girlfriend doesn't believe they can do it is being critical is sometimes people can speak just by the facial expression they give you when

you say something yeah that type of behavior what's your advice to people like that um well so yeah like first and foremost like is is so if you're trying to go out and do something and you've got goals and whatever and you're going to go out and try and crush it and like your best mate your bro partner family whatever tell you that that's a dumb idea and that you shouldn't do it you know i think you know does well first and foremost does what they're saying, is that saying, is that saying something about you or is it saying something about them? Yeah, for a start. Like, so are they telling you it's a shit idea because like they actually genuinely

think that the idea is shit or are they saying that it's a shit idea because they are fearful that you might go and succeed, you know, or that they're jealous that you're actually having a crack because you've got, you've got the confidence to go and do it or because maybe they're afraid that you might actually succeed, you might actually dominate, and then they won't be on the same level as you. Is that a real thing? Do you reckon that's true?

It's a massive thing. So I'll tell you a story. It's like my best mate, his name is Mitch. We've been best mates for 15 years. I slept on the floor of his house sometimes when I wasn't living at home or whatever. Like we've been through some savage times together and he came from a family that were, you know, they did it right. They were well off, right? Um, yeah. And, and he's, you know, he's working really hard now to

do his best and to try to dominate in life and he's giving it a red hot crack. But, you know, you know, a couple of months ago sitting there and he's like, Oh yeah, we're on the treadmill, was walking to my gym. And he's just like, Oh yeah. I was like, how was last week, mate? Like, what'd you do last week? And he's like, yeah, just had work, man. Just, you know, trying to do some studies, trying to, you know, improve my things, whatever. He's like, what'd you do? And I was like, oh yeah, you know, I spoke to 8,000 people at OMR. You just got back from like, you know, Germany, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And he kind of goes quiet for a second. He's just like, you know, man, like sometimes I can imagine it would be hard for me as a person to be friends

with someone like you, because what I say is, you know, I'm doing my things. I'm living my normal life, doing whatever I'm working as hard as I can. But what you do is always so extreme and always so this and that and the other. And he's like, but you know, that's only really bad if I think about it in that mindset. You know, if I go, but you're my best mate and you're actually winning at life and that's really amazing, I'm really happy for you. So that's the mindset shift. He's able to kind of be like, well, just because I'm not doing what you're doing and what you're doing is really cool and awesome,

doesn't mean that I need to be negative to you. I could actually go in with a positive mindset and be like, congratulations, man, that's sick. And he's going to buy his first house and whatever at the moment and I'm like, cool, man, good luck sick. And he's going to buy his first house and whatever at the moment, and I'm like, cool, man, good luck. I want you to win. Go get it.

It's no different to in that situation, someone could turn around and be like, oh, that's not good enough. But that's not really achieving anything. And how do you spot those people within your friendship cycle? Because I sometimes think if you've got bad apples in your friendship cycle, they have more influence,

more potential to tear you down than strangers do. Is there a way to know who's on your side and who's not? Well, whatever it is that you do to recognize them, just spot them quickly because it's a waste of time otherwise. But I think, yeah, I mean, it's exactly like, yeah, what's their facial expression? What's their response?

What do they communicate to you when you're talking about the thing that you are most passionate about. Yeah, if you're talking to someone about something that you just really want to win out and you're so passionate about and they're telling you, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, well, you know, either one, I'd be having a conversation with them

about that to let them know that, you know, kind of like, hey man, this is really important to me. Like, so if you're going to keep shutting it down, then we're probably, there's going to be an issue. You know, and if they keep doing that, then it's probably, again, like it's, again, intense and whatever, but like is that person adding value to your life or are they draining energy and emotion from your life? And again, this is a really, really like blunt, like hardcore approach. But again, like you live your life to make yourself happy and those around you happy.

In that situation, you're not making yourself happy and you're also not actually making them happy either, quite obviously. So I think a lot of people get stuck in this mindset. They're like, oh, but we were friends in high school, bro. Known you for so long. We're going to be mates forever. It's like, that doesn't have to happen. And again, just because you might drift apart from someone doesn't make you a bad person or them a bad person. That's just life, right? Yeah, great. That really made me think, because along the way,

I think specifically with my business partner, when he dropped out of university and joined me in my first business, every time he posted on his Facebook, it was his mates from back home taking the piss out of him. He would post one of his achievements, he'd won an award, and it would be a flurry of his friends, quote-unquote, back home, ripping into pieces. I didn't have that because from a very young age,

everyone I grew up with knew who I was, but he changed. So he went from being the kid that was probably, in some respects, the butt of the joke amongst his friends, to now being successful, quote-unquote. Good on him, yeah. Yeah, and I think his circle struggled to adapt to that. Next topic I wanted to talk to you about is personal mistakes. I read online about your speeding offense and those things.

Being completely transparent, I got banned from driving too. Yeah, there you go. For my own stupidity, I got banned from driving in the first week that I passed my test. Apparently I was going 101 miles an hour on the motorway in a Range Rover. The week after I passed, I had no fucking idea where I was. It was 4 a.m. in the morning. I'd just dropped someone off at the airport in London

and I was driving back to Manchester. But talk to me about that process and what that taught you. Well, yeah, I think first and foremost, I think it was really, I think it was really valuable that came out of that was that I actually, that was a really kind of great notification of the fact that I kind of changed from being,

or kind of changed from being a kid, you know, running a business, you know, into a leader, you know, leading a team and like leading an organization and leading like a vision, you know. And so I think, you know, leading a team and like leading an organization and leading like a vision, yeah. And so I think, you know, if anything for me, that kind of was a really, really good learning curve to understand that it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Like it doesn't matter how small the mistake is or whatever,

but it's more about the message that it actually sends, yeah. And so like as a leader, like I mentioned before, like obviously, yeah, a huge portion of the behavior of any organization is stimulated by that of the leader. It's like, well, you know, how am I actually showing up to work and what do people think? Because it's not enough, like it's not enough to just win and it's not enough to just be smart. You know, it's how you win.

You know, like so are you, yeah, are you winning and being the douchebag that's like going around bragging to everyone about how great you are, you know, or are you winning and then taking yourchebag that's going around bragging to everyone about how great you are? Or are you winning and then taking your team out for dinner and celebrating with them because they've had a massive achievement and actually getting around them and congratulating them? Because at the end of the day, no organization, Steve Jobs, great dude, obviously ultra smart, visionary, genius, whatever. But he won because he had an incredible team around him as well. And without the people, he couldn't have done that.

So as a leader, I think that making a mistake or whatever it is, speeding, fine, cool, whatever, right? But I think at the end of the day, again, it's like what would you take away from that? So for me, I took away like, well, I can actually have a profound impact on people by doing good things and or bad things. What am I going to choose to do?

Well, let's choose to do some good things. So that was kind of what I took out of that. And, you know, I've read that there's over 20 million people using your products. Is that accurate? So we've had, we would have had in total, I think, about 35 million people use the product now in total. Obviously, there's different amount of people using it at any given point in time, but yeah, plenty of people, yeah.

And this is across the body guides, the apps the the apps all of our trainers now yeah yeah the books the accessories yep all that stuff yeah pretty incredible yeah it's uh to be honest man like i think it's sometimes you forget about how many people that actually is and how many people are being affected by like what we're doing in a really really good way you. You know, like, so that's, you know, nearly two times the population of the country that I grew up in. Yeah. And like, that's like, and for me, like, you know, early on, like again, like, yeah, you always focus on the wins and the gains and the progress and how you do that stuff.

But every now and again, like, you know, calling out that stuff and being like, wow, like we've actually like had a pretty big impact on like literally millions of people's lives. And like, that's a pretty big, like wow moment for me and for Kayla. So, and this is a bit of an obscure question. It's not written down anywhere. I just sometimes,

I just sometimes, you know, cause we're coming to the end of this conversation. So I just wanted to, to go off in a couple of random directions. Yeah, go ahead. Um,

are you scared of dying? That's a good question. Um, I would say, so I'll put it this way, I would be scared of not being able to add value, all the value to the world that I believe I can add. And how much value

is that? A lot more than what I'm adding currently. In other words, I'm not so much fearful about the notion of not being here and being on the planet. I think that's an inevitable thing, right? We'll see what happens over the next 50 years, right? But, um, but I think, you know, more so like, I think that, you know, I'm again, you know, arrogance, confidence, whatever, like I'm really confident that, you know, based on like how passionate I

am and how driven I am and the stuff that I've been able to learn and the stuff that I inevitably will learn that I think that I can do some pretty cool things for people and I can add some pretty good value. And whether that's on like a individual level or whether that's 35 million women around the world, you know, like I think that I'm really blessed to be in the position that I am in and I'm really blessed to have the mindset that I have, you know, so I think that I would be afraid,

you know, I'd be afraid to not be here and, you know, die or whatever, you know, if I hadn't really had a red hot crack at being able to do that in a big way. And, you know, so I think that we've done an all right job to date, but I think I'm still kind of only really just getting warm. So I guess it's fear of untapped potential. Yeah, I think so.

It'd be fear of waste, basically. I guess last question, which is a piece of advice. I've read through your story and it was super inspiring. You're now on various rich lists and things like that your lamborghini i hear yeah i actually just i got rid of it yeah what lamborghini was it uh it was a huracan oh nice yeah very drivable car here yes it is i would fucking know but you've got 35 million people using your products and all these things you know there's going to be some people out there that are listening to this podcast right now and they have they have big dreams they have a level of um belief that they can achieve those

dreams yeah and they're living a life that is not true to who they are yeah this is probably like you know it's the number one reported regret of the dying is that they didn't live a life true to themselves and they should have done that yeah they should have done and things they should, you know, and they kind of let life pass them by for whatever reason. What, you know, and this is also probably the most common message I get in my inbox. What message do you give to those people that think maybe the life that they're living isn't completely true to who they are? And like, is there anything actionable that they can do to pursue that?

Big question, so. Yeah, no, no, like good questions, man, good questions. Yeah, I think, well, I think I said this like really, really early on, you know, when I was talking about like some of the adversity that I went through like as a younger person, but I think like at the end of the day, like, you know, who's in the driver's seat, man? Like who's driving?

You know, like every single person on this planet effectively is in control of their life in one way or another. Like a lot of people can, you know, put some extreme situation up and say like, I'm not in control of this, I'm not in control of that, and so on and so forth. And in some cases, perhaps that's true. But the thing that is consistent and common among every single person on the planet is that they're in control of something

that impacts their life. You know, so like sure, you might not have enough money to move out of home and you might not have a job and this and that and the other and whatever it's like, but you can control what you choose to learn to get a job. You can control what you choose to do with your time. You can control whether you want to have one job or two jobs. You can control whether you want to spend that money on a house or spend that money on a holiday or spend that money on a car. So there's no right path. I think that right now there's a battle between maybe the millennials and our parents who have been like, oh, you've got to go to university

and you've got to get a house and you've got to do whatever. If you want to have kind of like what we would forecast as being a generally pretty successful and decent life, that's one way to go about it. But I don't think that that rule book necessarily matters anymore. But at the same time, I don't think that everyone in the millennial generation also wants to go through that. They don't necessarily want that rule book necessarily matters anymore but at the same time i don't think that everyone in the millennial generation also wants to go through that like they don't necessarily want to have money some people just might want to live a relatively normal humble

life they might want to travel once a year or twice a year and whatever right so i think that you know first here first if you want to you know first and get in control but figure out what you want to do because like running a business isn't for everyone 100 yeah so like i think that it's cool to be like oh like lambos man and like private jets and like whatever, right? But do you actually want that life? Because that life's not about just having the car. That life's also about the long days. It's about the pressure and the stress and the whatever.

Yeah, and you might not want that. Do you want the house and the kids and whatever? Like, no, maybe you don't. Yeah, so I think everyone's in control. We've all got equal control. I think it's about taking the control to the extreme and then controlling what you want, yeah, I think everyone's in control. We've all got equal control. I think it's about taking the control to the extreme

and then controlling what you want and then working towards getting it. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, mate. It's been great to get to meet you.