The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - E30: Alan Barratt - From £27 to £72 million

Episode Date: April 10, 2019

This week I spoke with Alan Barratt, CEO and Founder of the worlds fastest growing sports performance and weight management brand, Grenade. Alan and his wife Juliet started Grenade in 2010 with just ��27 in their bank account. After a few short years, 50...

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly, to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. this week on the diary of a ceo i've got one of the uk's most incredible incredible ceos joining me this conversation epitomizes why i started this podcast it has it all a remarkable underdog success story a brutally honest, lovable entrepreneur, heartbreaking sacrifices, and life lessons that only someone in his position could share with me. There was laughter, there was tears, and I walked away feeling deeply inspired with a new perspective on what matters the most in life. This week I welcome to the Diary of a CEO Alan Barrett, the CEO and founder of Grenade, the world's fastest growing sports performance and weight management brand, but also one of the most exciting companies in the United

Kingdom. Alan and his wife, Julia, started the business with £27 in the bank account. And a few years later, the business was worth £72 million and counting. I'm obsessed with their products. I'm not bullshitting you when I say this because he came on the podcast. I'm actually genuinely obsessed. I can't remember the last day I didn't have a grenade bar or a protein shake in the office. And when he came to my office, he saw 10 bottles of protein shake on my desk. I promise you he's not paying me to say this. Protein products always taste bland and powdery to me, and Grenade tastes like heaven, and it's nutritionally good for you. It's an actual miracle. My manager told me she listened to this podcast back five times, and that's a record for guests I've had on this

show, so I think that says something. And I couldn't be more excited for you to overhear the conversation I had with Alan. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Derivative CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Alan. Hello. Thank you so much for coming today. I've probably overwhelmed you in the last hour since we've been talking with my admiration for yourself and the product you've created. And I think it's worth me just starting with this. You're the CEO founder of Grenade.

And my life is pretty overwhelmed with Grenade. We also work together in sort of like a with a marketing sort of partnership but outside of that if you go to my hotel room right now and you can't find 10 bottles of either drank or yet to be drunk grenade then I would be blown away if you can't find 10 bars of grenade in my hotel room specifically on my desk there's more than 10 I know there is so I'm just saying 10 to be safe then I would be absolutely blown away away. Are you inviting me to your hotel room? Because we're on camera. Not quite, no. Slightly creepy.

No, but you did just bring a bunch of grenade bars and drinks with you when you came here today, so they will be making it back to my hotel room. I shall not be sharing. But you've created a tremendous, a phenomenal business, a UK sort of born and bred business in what I consider to be a tremendously short amount of time when I think about the other players in this space. And when I read your story,

I think this is the first place I wanted to start. I read that you started with 27 quid in the bank, right? That's right. Well, actually, we started with 500, but it was quickly down to 27. And one of the questions I get asked all the time, right, is by entrepreneurs is, can you start a business without loads of money? There's this preconception that you need like rich parents or millions of pounds. So can you tell me how Grenade began? Yeah, absolutely. So we'd had, without going back to my childhood and boring everyone senseless, the business that we had in the same week, because my wife is the co-founder, so my wife and I started Grenade. We had a distribution business, which I started in 1999, just out of my garage at home.

And the idea of that was to import American-made sports nutrition products and distribute them throughout the UK. Went through the whole journey of that, but met my wife in 2003. She then came into the business in 2005. By 2008, we got bored of that business and sold it and basically decided to follow the dream, which was to have our own brand, which was Grenade. So yeah, I mean, we'd spent four years trademarking. So between 2006 and 2010, we spent four years, which took a lot of discipline and time and effort to be able to do, did everything ourselves. So to date now we've accumulated over 200 design marks,

trademarks, pending patents. So we locked Grenade down globally as a brand, which I think is probably the best thing that we ever did. But yeah, we just had no money to operate with in terms of doing anything. So we didn't pay ourselves a salary for four years. We didn't take a day off for four years. So we couldn't afford to employ anyone. But we really, I think, learned quite quickly in the power of doing something with very little money and being very cost conscious. So when it came to, say, doing a trade show, for instance,

and a lot of our competitors, the big sports nutrition brands, would have Formula One cars in there and they'd have giant tire booths that took a week to build and you could pretty much live in and they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. And we couldn't do any of that. So we got a friend of mine and we convinced him to lend us his tank. So he's more eccentric than I am. We borrowed this tank and we drove this tank into this show. And we just stole the show.

And that was our booth. So we just drove it in. We put like some camo netting over it and we had some products. And then my wife and I just stood there and we got like a T-shirt each that we paid sort of £6 each for or something. And just the two of us. I'm not really sure at what point what we thought we were doing when I look back, but it seemed like a good idea at the time and then probably was. And at that show, there were a few Americans there.

This was a British show and one of these American guys took a picture of our tank and this product and he sent it to the weight loss buyer for GNC in the US. And this guy contacted us and he said, I've worked at GNC for 20 years. He said, I see 120 weight loss products a week. He said, you're stood out. So at that point, then I think we just thought, you know what, we're onto something here. So yeah, it's certainly, I'm sure, would have been a lot easier if we did have rich parents. I've got far from rich parents. But if you've got the time and the willingness to do something,

then yeah, you don't need absolute pots of cash. I think you just need the willingness and the ability to go and do something and make a difference. That's what we've done. And disrupt, disrupting doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. It just needs to be disruptive.

And you started that by saying you don't want to take us back to your childhood and bore us with that. But I'm really intrigued about your childhood because I think with successful entrepreneurs there's a bit of a reputation I guess that they they're all bad in school and they're all dropouts and I've been uh known for saying things like I think university is a scam and so on and my my educational background but what was yours what was your experience like in school and stuff like that yeah so my family had had their own business, said they'd only ever worked for themselves.

Since post Second World War, they had a heavy goods vehicle mechanics business, only just my basically my my dad and my uncle and my granddad. And they'd worked exceptionally hard, too hard, really, I think, and never made any money. I mean, my uncle, for example, you know, he never moved out of home. He never had a girlfriend. He, you know, he, nowadays, I think he'd have been someone who was probably prescribed as having, you know, definitely some sort of social disorder. He probably never spoke to 20 people in his whole life. And he worked with my dad in this business. And the expectation was I'd go into that business. And anyone that knows me, I'm not practical. I couldn't put together something from Ikea with the instructions and all the parts. I'm not mechanically

minded. I physically just can't do it. And I've just got no interest in how things work. I just want them to work. I don't have the patience for it. So I was never going to go into that heavy goods vehicle, you know, the family business. But I think what I learned there was this tremendous work ethic that they had. But, you know, my granddad died at work when he was 84. He went blind and still went to work because he still didn't have anywhere else to go.

My uncle had a stroke and went to work because it's what he'd always done. My dad had had one day off work because it's what he'd always done. My dad had had one day off work in 30 years when he had mumps. So it's just this amazing work ethic. And I thought, you know, I'm going to work hard, but I want to, I want to have something to show for it. And it's not about making money, but they just didn't really have anything to show for it, to be honest. So I used to go to work with my dad when i was 11 and help out and i just hated it i said i wasn't interested but i was from the age of 14 onwards i was really interested in in weight training because i wasn't interested in other sports i wasn't interested in rugby cricket football or any of the traditional stuff so i

was kind of interested in being healthy and doing something, but I didn't know what it would be because, again, my family weren't interested in those type of sports either. So from the age of 14, I went to a gym on work experience, and in the late 80s, all the big movie stars were Jean-Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger. It was a big deal to kind of watch Commando and Predator in the late 80s because it was in 18 and we were like 13.

And I remember thinking, I want to look like that because I was really skinny. I was just under 11 stone at six feet tall. So everyone used to call me Big Al for a joke because I was so bloody skinny. When I work experience, and actually my dad and my family were really against it, they were like, you're wasting your life. It's a waste because academically I'm fairly clever, but I just hated school. I just I found it really boring. I couldn't get on with the teachers.

And I was just I was probably disruptive, not in the sense of, you know, swearing and throwing things around. But I've just always wanted to challenge convention. I remember once the teacher, she wrote a word on the board, and I remember the word was Mississippi, and she spelt it wrong. So I remember saying, oh, you've spelt that wrong. And she said, no, I haven't. I said, oh, you have. It's M-I-double-S-I-double-S-I-double-P-I.

And I was six. You're joking. No, and I got into an argument with her. Anyway, she went and got, and she looked at my dictionary and was right. And that happened probably quite a lot, where the teacher would mark something according to the answer. Very often the answer book was wrong. So I bunked off school a lot.

And I pretended I was ill a lot. And because my mum was a bit of a soft touch, and she knew I wasn't really ill. And I did kind of muddle through school, and I did do quite well. But I started at A-levelss and I thought, you know what, I just can't stand this anymore. And I dropped out after a year. I got into a big row with one of the teachers.

I won't tell you what I said, but it got me into a lot of trouble. What did you say? I started dating a girl when I was doing A-levels who was, again, quite disruptive in the school. And I think I was probably seen as someone who had got quite good potential academically. And I started hanging out with with her and I already discovered I liked going to the gym at this point so there were people that were a good influence and people that were a bad influence but they were all 10 years older than me and I was all of a sudden surrounded by people

I looked up to who were a combination of sort of business people, just regular people and just generally criminals. And I was going to the gym and there was this big concerted effort really, I think, from the schools and my parents to really stop me going into this environment because they just didn't think it was going to be good for me. They just thought I was going to be wasting my life. And I'd been to some sort of bodybuilding event, I think it was, on this one evening. And I went and worked at this event

and it made me late on Monday morning for, I think it was biology, and I missed the class. And I turned up and the teacher collared me. And she'd been dying to have a go anyway because I'd been going out with this girl who she didn't like. And she just said, oh, you know, where were you this morning? And the way she spoke to me, she was really quite rude, to be honest. And I said, oh, I'm really sorry.

I went slow, no. I said, I'm really sorry, miss. I worked last night and I got in at four o'clock this morning and, you know, I didn't get up in time. I was just about to come and see you. I apologise I missed your class. And she just started lecturing me and telling me off. And I've got a really, really short fuse for this sort of thing.

I just don't like being told what to do. So I did just tell her to F off. And she just, I can still see the look on her face. She was horrified. And she stood their mouth open. And actually, my form teacher saw and overheard. And she said, oh, you need to go and apologise. I was like, no.

And I thought thought you know what i don't want to be here i'm not enjoying it i didn't really see myself getting anywhere and i was just you know with no respect to anyone else who goes to college university or whatever i just knew it wasn't for me um i've always wanted to do something differently and if it's perhaps it's like you know not liking football and rugby and so on. If there's a million people or a thousand people or ten people going one way, I just always want to go the other way. I don't know if it's, you know,

my wife thinks I've got Asperger's. Why does she think that? Oh, just because I'm quite dyspraxic. I walk into things a lot. So if there's a doorway, and even if it's ten feet wide, I guarantee I'll walk into one of the door frames. So I'm quite clumsy.

I've met another friend of mine recently who's actually very heavily dyspraxic and his takes the form as well, which mine does, where if I'm packing to go away, it takes me a long time to do it. I can't decide what I need to take, so I try and take everything. I have to be really disciplined. Like I'll go away for four days and I'll take five pairs of shoes, six pairs of shoes or something. But it's like when I think about it, you don't need to have, you know,

more pairs of shoes than days you're going for. And just, I just, it comes back to your point you were saying about potentially decision fatigue you were talking about the other day, but struggling to make decisions. And I get that like a form of dyspraxia like that. Maybe it's just, I'm just pigheaded and awkward. I don't know. But I've just never really seen the point. If you want to make a difference doing something, do you make a difference by doing what everyone else is doing? Or can you make a difference doing by, you know, by doing something that no one else is doing, perhaps? So I just decided I just from that moment on, I just didn't want to be in the education system any longer. And I went straight, I took the bus from that sixth form

straight to the gym I trained at, and I said, can you give me a job? And he said, like, your mum and dad are going to kill us if we give you a job. I said, well, like, I've just walked out of college, so I need a job. And they'd got no money either, so they employed me on less than minimum wage.

So it was about £1.80 an hour, I think. You know, this was mid-'90s, so I know it was 20 years ago, but it wasn't much. It was about £70 a week an hour I think this was mid 90s so I know it's 20 years ago but it was about £70 a week it wasn't a lot then and I took it and I loved it and it's one of the best things I ever did and I did that for four years working in this gym

So you talk there about hard work and how that sort of runs in your family I guess and how you were taught hard work as a sort of a principle or whatever when you were very very young one of the things I hear often these days and I'm just going to try and be as honest as I can about this, is there's almost this movement that encouraging people to work hard is bad, because it's negative for their like mental health, they can get overworked and overstressed. But when I when I listen to

entrepreneurs that I respect, like Elon Musk, they all cite hard work as a clear, controllable advantage. And they all cite it as responsible for their success. So I guess, in your journey to building Grenade with your wife, how much do you think and how much generally do you think hard work plays a role in success? I mean, I would say at its simplest form, and I'm not saying this is a good idea, because I think, frankly, we probably, this is going to sound a bit of a silly thing to say, but I think we probably worked too hard in the sense we probably should have taken a bit of a step back at some point. And maybe when you're working in a brand, I think everyone should take time to step back and work on the brand. So we definitely went down a few rabbit warrens.

And I think with regard to hard work, but I'll tell you what did it. In its very simplest form, just by working more hours than anyone else was doing, certainly our competitors, you know, not having children, you know, working seven days a week. If we were awake, we were working on the brand. And actually, you we know we still are because it's very all-consuming so we never when you've got your own business you're never not thinking about it apart from when i'm flying actually that's why i like flying because if i'm flying around i'm hopefully not thinking about my brand because i'm trying not to crash

just just for context alan is a pilot and flies his plane anyway and i have been in one plane crash but not with me flying. But I think because we'd never built a brand before, but we had this work ethic, I think maybe we used hard work as a substitute for lacking a lot of knowledge. So, you know, there's two of us, we've got no money, we know what we want to do. And you know, within a year, we're trading in the US, and there's two of us, and we're working from home. When you think of it, really, it's just suicide. But I think approaching things fearlessly, because we were probably very naive, probably stood us in good stead. And actually, I remember thinking at the time, you know, there's going to be no one that's working harder than we are. There's going to be no one that's

got a better brand. There'll be no one that makes better products. We're going to do more sampling. You know, when we hire people, we're going to get the best people. We're going to have the best relationships with our suppliers. We'll have the best relationships with our retailers. We're going to build this amazing trust with our consumers. So, and I think, you know, hard work forms part of that. But I think collectively, I thought if we thought about it, we went and did it because someone said to me once, they'd rather, you said, well, you know, you're better off being a has-been than I never was. And I always remembered that because I thought, at least if this all goes horribly wrong, I never want to look back and say, oh, I wish we'd worked harder. Oh, I wish we'd done that.

I wish we'd gone to that show. I wish we'd met that person. So actually, we always put just tremendous amounts of pressure on ourselves. And I think it's one of those probably issues I have today, whether it's burgers or not, where if I think about something, until I've gone and done it, I can't get it out of my mind. I don't know if that's just me or that's probably quite common, but sometimes the strangest of things, nothing we're not going to run around killing people, like the thoughts in my head are saying right now. No, but I am.

So I think hard work for us just meant, you know, getting up, putting the hours in. And I think that's what's been good actually about training for 30 years. It taught me a real discipline of putting the weights away, consistency. I think consistency is so important. People never talk about consistency in business. But, you know, it's one thing working hard, but how long do you work hard for? A day, a week, a month, a year?

Because what does a year of hard work mean? Also, my family worked hard their whole life. So for me, I've worked hard my whole life. And I think nowadays people just don't have the staying power perhaps to do that. They get burnt out. And I've been through stages where I do that they get burnt out and you know i've been through stages where i've probably felt pretty burnt out you probably have as well

but that's where you really take that discipline that mental strength to to keep going and maybe you know re-evaluate things you're working on or perhaps take a bit of time to do something else but i'm just one of those people that i can't do something half-cocked. I'm either all in or I'm all out. I'm just one of those extreme people. Someone said to me once, he said, Al, do you see everything as black and white and there are shades of grey? And I just thought, I can't operate in the grey, despite wearing all grey, apparently.

Going back to Grenade, I have my own answer to this question, but it's not for me to answer. I think I want to hear it from you. The business has grown unbelievably. I think it's now the fourth most popular correct me if a chocolate bar in the uk that's correct yeah i should i should caveat by saying in in the groceries and in single sales but yeah it's yeah it's yeah the technical iri definition and you have multiples and multiples and multiples less support and resource in decades to your name than all of the competitors in that space so for that to be the case there must be something

unique about the product about the brand from your perspective what is that um i think i mean when it comes to a brand i mean i probably a fairly eccentric person, as you've probably gathered by listening to this podcast, but brands are always extensions into contact with, whether it's suppliers or retailers or consumers, I hope everyone we come into contact with leaves with a little bit of that. So I think, and actually, if we don't care, why should anyone else? So I think we've built this amazing brand that people really care about. And if people don't care about it, they don't like it, that's just as good. Because for someone not to like something we're doing they'll still go and tell people but at least they've got an opinion about it so i think with grenade hopefully it stands for a lot of things that both are hopefully fairly obvious and that's things like taste where

people can immediately see taste or or benefits for The early days, we always focused on products deliberately where there was an immediate feeling, so weight loss and pre-workouts where people could have it and within 20 minutes, they knew they'd had something. So because otherwise, if you have a product potentially, so let's say water, for instance, most people can't tell the difference between water. So if you just drink another brand of water,

do you genuinely think, well, it tastes better than the other brand? Most people couldn't tell. So we always try to focus on something where the stuff that we were good at hopefully shone through, and certainly consumers feeling something was really important to us. And that's still the case now with our bars. I think our bars just taste better than everyone else's. Quality ingredients we use, and everyone says this,

but with us it's really true, we really do go over and above to find the best ingredients and the best suppliers, and no one else just seems to bother. And that's not just in this industry, that's in lots of industries. We spend years on product development, literally years. I spent two years working on our first bar, which was Caramel, which we launched in 2015. That was a two-year project.

The last bar we just launched, which we launched a few weeks ago, which is the White Chocolate Salted Peanut, that was a further 18-month development project just on flavour. So even though we actually had the concept and bars, just 18 months on a flavour, I just don't know anyone that goes into that much trouble. Again, maybe it's the OCD thing or something. I don't know.

But it's strange. Whenever we talk to people about the brand, people's faces light up. It just seems to put a smile on people's faces. So that's priceless. How important was, because I think this sometimes about our business, I think we were at the right place in the right time in some respects.

But how important was this concept of luck or opportunity, do you think, to your business? Yeah, I mean, I certainly, I would never ever say we've been lucky. I don't really believe in luck per se, but I do think if we were to try and define luck, it's really just an opportunity, meeting preparedness. So definitely we are having a moment in time. And lots of businesses get this. It's actually, I've talked about this quite a lot, in fact, in terms of timing. You cannot, I'm pretty sure, as a business, you can't outmanoeuvre bad timing. Clearly, we're in an era where people are more health conscious, certainly younger people. Sugar is the enemy.

I just don't see it changing anytime soon. We've come along with something which is high protein and low sugar, you know, with our drinks and bars. So we're certainly helping a lot with that wave by making sure our product is everywhere that we think it should be. So, but yeah, we're definitely having a moment in time. And I think, I mean, in some ways, actually, we've been quite unlucky with some things that didn't come off that were quite, quite unlucky. One of which was we had a huge Bollywood star that loved our weight loss product. And he was talking about it everywhere and we couldn't get product into the country

and it got stuck in customs. And this guy's like, one of his films in India, it's still the highest grossing film of all time. It's bigger than the Harry Potter movies. And we had like, India's a big country. We had a lot of people talking about it, but there's no product. That was actually quite unlucky, really.

You know, I think potentially. And by the time we got product into the country, like a year later, just the buzz had died down. So we kind of missed out there. But a friend of mine invented lactose-free milk, for instance. Lactose intolerance is quite a big thing nowadays, and it's everywhere. Nearly bankrupting, we lost a fortune, it all got poured away, because he invented it in the 1970s, and no one knew what lactose intolerance was. So timing's huge. So yeah, we're never going to turn around and say we haven't had good timing because we have. Then again, you know, the opportunities that we've had through timing, everyone else has had as well, including a lot of the, you know, the really big players that

we compete with. So they've had access to the same consumers that we have. And I think, you know, if we're going to talk about potentially disrupting the confectionery industry, because lots of people now, rather than going by a regular chocolate bar, will go and buy one of our protein bars. When I actually saw the top 10 best-selling chocolate bars in the UK, I was actually quite surprised because we were the only brand that had been launched in the last 20 years.

It just hasn't been disrupted. And if you think of what Uber have done and Starbucks and Amazon and Airbnb, mostly these are brands that weren't around 20 years ago. And there's been a lot of disruption in the drinks space. And we've seen it with Fevertree and BrewDog and they've come along with something different or done it better or been a challenger brand. And actually, no one had really done it in chocolate or with food. And I think because most of the brands are so big and powerful that no one had really thought to do it but again it's back to that if everyone's doing one thing i'll go and do something else um so we've really managed to

disrupt a space quite effectively there i think and i guess the the incumbent sometimes gets complacent right so definitely one of those 20 year old brands just thinking well we're number one we're number two we're number three you know we're number one, we're number two, we're number three. You know, we've got our spots. We're in, you know, distributions, key areas and who's going to knock us off our perch? And then the wave comes in and Grenada are there on the surfboard with a great product. Well, that's why a lot of, we do a lot of NPD, which is new product development. Half of my time is what we call EPD, which is existing product development. So we are always redeveloping our own product to make them better because technology change, ingredients change.

We're learning all the time. I'm a big, big fan of learning. The minute you're not learning, you know, I'm bored. I always want to be learning, which is weird bearing in mind that I hated school when I wasn't learning anything. So I spend a lot of time doing EPD. My thought, you know, if I can make my product better, then so can someone else. So I'll it first oh smart disrupt yourself yeah i'm always

disrupting myself yeah you you mentioned that the book the incident with the bollywood star where you know you had someone talking a lot about you in um in another country but you couldn't get the product there on time and it felt a bit like a bit of a failure or a missed opportunity shall i say i think that people see entrepreneurship because of like Instagram and movies and whatever else as a very rock star glamorous thing. And of course, there is, you know, as you said, you've got very nice cars, you've got Lamborghini, you've got planes, etc. But what I don't think they see enough of, because we generally tend to shine the light on the finish line, as opposed the journey is all of the bullshit that comes before that yeah and all of the hard times and

the sacrifice and those things so could you speak to i guess your personal sacrifices and also what your hardest moments were on this journey well i mean when yeah we had some fairly dark i mean you do you do still have have dark days and i yeah, this is going to be probably quite a broad answer to this question. People say to me a lot, you know, what's it like? Oh, you're successful, you've made it. Firstly, we don't consider ourselves successful. And I'm probably sure most entrepreneurs never think they're successful because you just look for the next best thing.

And that doesn't mean to say that you're never satisfied. It's just people say, oh, you know, you've got there. I haven't got there. I don't know where there is. So that's something that, you know, we're always pushing ourselves and actually disrupting ourselves and keeping going. In a way, that's probably quite, quite sad because we don't ever give ourselves probably a pat on the back, you know, for a job well done. But, you know, the job hasn't been done and having a brand, a brand is never finished. So we're always working on the brand and trying to improve the brand and the brand evolves.

I mean, in the early days with, you know, my wife and I, we had a genuine conversation about, you know, us having to potentially losing the house. And actually we said, you know, if we end up, like, you know, a one-bedroom bed sits somewhere together, you know, as long as we're together, we'll be fine. Excuse me. So, yeah, really hard. Like I said, we didn't have a day off for four years, but we were pretty much, you know, we were enjoying ourselves and having fun and working

hard. But, you know, we had the sacrifice of not having children. I mean, that would probably be a big regret. That was a conscious decision we made because we just didn't really have time for children. And when your wife and you were just both working 24-7 in the business, there's no time for anything else. So people, yeah, don't see that. And it's very nice to have nice things, but nice things are the icing on the cake. You know, it doesn't, it's not the cake itself. So yeah, we've had hard times. I'm sure there's probably still hard times to come. But as long as we're happy and healthy and the people around us and stuff are happy and healthy, then, you know, we're hopefully doing good work. But yeah, I wouldn't, being an entrepreneur is

quite a lonely life. It's not an easy life. You know, very often I'm probably quite, probably admire people who can be content in doing something that's perhaps a bit more regular in terms of having a regular job or whatever. And they have kids and a family and they go on holiday a couple of times a year and stuff. You know, I sometimes look at that thinking, that's probably quite nice because you know what it's like.

It's nice getting on planes and going places, but you've always got a thousand phone calls, a thousand emails. Wherever you are, you're supposed to be somewhere else. I go to America a lot, but I go for the day. So I try and make it enjoyable, but a lot of the time it's not enjoyable. It's miserable. You're in hotels.

You're on your own. You're stuck in traffic. You miss planes. Late for planes. Planes are delayed. But I just always try and reset at the end of the day and think actually you know we're really lucky to be here and doing what we're doing and we're having this moment in time so i really want to try and enjoy the roller coaster because there's a lot of highs and lows as you all know yeah and you i can relate to all of that. You talked about there never really being a there.

There not really being a finish line. So, you know, because I think we're all guilty of living our lives with this sort of narrative in our heads that we'll just do this this year and then we'll stop and enjoy it. But as an entrepreneur, what I've gathered from you there is you'll never just stop and enjoy it. The industry's changing your brand's constantly changing this isn't a four-term four-year play and then you're going

to retire and stop forever so how do you ensure that life is good on the journey not just in this invisible imaginary date in the future by trying to do what you said to do, actually, on one of your LinkedIn episodes months ago last year. So, because I've actually quoted this quite a lot because it really resonated with you said this. And I think you said, I'm going to misquote, you know, but you said something like, don't cut down the rainforest and then donate to the bees.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, what I took from that was actually, yeah, always looking for that next best thing and trying to get somewhere else. Whereas actually it's fine to just stop and say, do you know what? I got there. I made it.

I did it. Everything we set out to do, we've done, which actually we have to be fair. But there's a few more things I want to do. But it's really hard to remember that. You have to constantly say that back to yourself because otherwise you get drawn back in again and think oh I'll just do that I'll just do that I'll just do that and um yeah you just you almost want to run out of things today but it's never going to happen when you think about saying to yourself do you know what we

actually did it we actually did what we set out to do and we we you know we did achieve great things do you ever worry that that narrative in your head will make you complacent or less hungry? Because I used to. Yeah, that's, you know, that's my biggest fear. Complacency and boredom. And, you know, I said before, just not learning. Just my biggest fears. So, you know, the day that I'm not at Grenade is, you know, is going to be a strange day. That, you know, that first day, whether it's, you know, a month, a year, 10 years, 20 years,

I don't know. I know that I'm unemployable, so I'm never going to have another job. So this is the last proper job I ever have. So I would, yeah, I absolutely fear that. And actually that's why I got back into my flying over the last 18 months because I'm going to want to transfer the 70 plus 80 hours a week I spend on grenade. You know, I'm going to want to transfer it somewhere else. So aviation is quite a good thing because I've known people who've been flying for 50 60 years and they're still getting qualifications and ratings so um you know I want to go and do my my rotary license and become a helicopter pilot so I'd like to have helicopter and fixed wing ratings and um and stuff so I'll

have to go and find other things to do pretty quickly um but you know, as long as I'm at Grenade, I would hope we'd never become complacent. And I certainly try and surround myself with people that, you know, I don't want to let down, they don't want to let me down. And that we, you know, we all care to the point we go out and do the, make the best decisions possible we can for the brand. Because if we make great decisions for the brand who loses no one um you know it's great for us it's great for the team it's great for our investors it's great really for our competitors you know put a lot of value in this space most of all it's it's brilliant for consumers they get great product in in the locations they expect to find it and it's better for the health

i am you touched on something there as well about investors. And there was a point earlier you referenced about what you might do, you know, after Grenade, et cetera. I read that you sold part of Grenade for 72 million. We did, yes. Valuation. That's correct, yes. So that was of March 2017. The last clean valuation we had was Lion Capital came in, valued the business at 72 million. That's interesting because you had 27 in the bank.

Yes, that's right. It's the exact opposite. Yeah, I know. It's bizarre. Yeah, from 27 pounds to 72 million. Good headline, Matt. We'll use that. Yeah, definitely use that. So that was a couple of years ago. And they've been great partners again. We've learned a lot. They know a lot about brands. They've invested in lots of big consumer brands, which people will know. Because, you know, no one's done this before. So, you know, when it was my wife and I and we're at home and there's us and four cats, you know, and no one's done it before.

There's no one to ask. There's no path to follow. You just have to go and do what feels right at the time. And, you know, some things we got right and some things we got wrong. But even then, I remember the first time, for instance, we got into Tesco's and we found out the product had gone live in Tesco. This was the Thermo Detonator, our weight loss product. And it was a Friday evening and we drove out to go to our local Tesco, which is about 20 miles away because it was only in the big stores, to go and see the

product. And we were leaving the house and driving out of our road at like 10, 11 o'clock at night. And the neighbour drove past and he said, oh, where are you going? And we said, we're going to Tesco. He said, to go shopping. No, we're just going to go and look at our product on the shelf. But he said, but you know what it looks like? I said, yeah, but we've never seen it on a shelf of a supermarket before. So it was a really weird conversation because he was quite right, but he didn't really get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we still do that. Of course. I can't go anywhere in the world. I'm like, I wonder if we're in there. And I go into like Walmarts and stuff in Canada and we go to quite obscure places. And there's lots of places, again, like out in the Middle East and stuff where we can be found and just really obscure places.

And I've got friends in the forces and they send us pictures and they're like, yeah, we're at this really obscure place in Afghanistan and your products are here. And so we get a lot of pleasure from going out and seeing that. So like I said, it's probably like having a, Grenade's our baby, it's probably like having a child and seeing them, you know, swim for the first time or something. It's probably, or, you know, walking. So when Grenade makes these little baby steps of doing something, we just get a tremendous

amount of pleasure from seeing that, you know, and we still do. So I can't imagine a time where I ever won't care about that or it won't be impactful to me. So, yeah, whatever's in the future is whatever, you the future is going to be in the future. But, yeah, we do get a lot of pleasure from going around and seeing products around the world. And actually talking to people about it. Putting a smile on their face.

On the point of this investment from Lion Capital, right? One of the things that I think a lot of people think, especially when they don't have money, is that money will be the answer to all of their problems. It will make them exponentially more happy. And once you have money, everything is solved. Going from a place where you didn't have the money to now having the money, what can you tell people who are thinking about that? I can tell you that being brutally

honest about it, I've not had money and I've had money and I know which I prefer. Sure. But it's really weird how people think there's a link between money and happiness. How can those nondescript bits of paper with a queen's head on just make you happy? I think the missing link there is you can buy stuff that might make you happy temporarily. But I think really all having access, having some financial means does. It just gives you options. So, you know, you've got the option of maybe having a newer car or a bigger car or the option of going on a different holiday, for instance.

But as far as I remember, and you'd have to tell me a word for this, but even as a kid, when I was in infant school and I was walking around the school, I was like five, six years old, I remember a teacher saying to me once, Ali, you're always smiling. And she actually put, when I left infant school and went to junior school, she wrote some, a book, and she put keep smiling. So I just remember always being happy. And we never, ever, ever had any money when I left infant school and went to junior school, she wrote some, a book, and she put Keep Smiling. So I just remember always being happy. And we never, ever, ever had any money.

When I was a kid, we never really went anywhere or did anything because Mum and Dad couldn't afford to. But they always gave us loads of love. And if they could do something, they'd do it. But they always gave us time. More so my Mum than my Dad because my Dad was working all the time. So I didn't really see my Dad when I was little because he worked seven days a week. So I didn't really have much relationship with my Dad until he was older.

But having money just gives you options. It's really got nothing to do with happiness. And I think if you're unhappy, you know, having money or whatever is not the answer. And I think I'll go one step further. I think for people who potentially, you know, you could win money, you could inherit money,

or you could make money. Now I've made money by hard work. So I've got the gratification of, you know, knowing the value of a fiver. If you win money or inherit money, I honestly can't imagine anything worse. And I think, I mean, they call it the curse, the lottery, don't they, where people win the lottery. And all of a sudden, you've got people who win millions and millions of pounds. And for the first time ever, they've got options that they never had. And I think they think it's probably going to be amazing, and I'm sure for the most part it is.

But then people go out and buy like three helicopters and stuff, and then they realise that actually it's quite a lot of time and effort and work having a helicopter. They're really expensive things, and they go wrong, and they depreciate, and they're quite dangerous. And all their family and friends would change. So I think the nicest thing about the way that Jules and I have built the business and we've created value is the fact that our friends and family have seen us do it

and seen the sacrifice and everyone says, you know what, you deserve it. You know, the sacrifice you've made. Now, people might say something different behind our back. Of course. I don't think they would if anyone would ever say you know if ever we would ever have a you know a negative comment about that it's just people that just don't know us and frankly i couldn't care less anyway to be honest but yeah if you if all of a sudden you won the lottery you know do you think

most people's friends and family would be pleased because I bet they wouldn't because jealousy creeps in and I think it's hard to be jealous of someone that's worked hard because anyone can work hard sure

it's not unique to that one person whereas yeah if you do it via luck are you winning the lottery I think people wouldn't like that and I think people

would realise how their friends and family would change I always prefer the detail because it gets me thinking. I'm going to ask you another question, which is just, I'm not going to give any context to the question, and it's a fairly deep question,

but I just like asking this question sometimes to some people. Are you scared of death? Ooh, that's a good one. I don't think so, but ask me 10 minutes before I'm about to die. I don't, no, I don't think so but ask me 10 minutes before i'm about to die um i don't know i don't i don't think i'm i'm uh i don't think i'd be scared of it i've never really been around death much touch wood i'm very fortunate to have close family and friends uh nearby i mean i guess it probably knows i guess it's probably how it happens i mean

you know if you believe in reincarnation that stuff i'm probably going to come back as a toilet or something if reincarnation is a thing but i something actually i i live uh opposite someone who passed away about four years ago who was extremely uh well known he passed away about four years ago it was extremely wealthy nearly pretty much billionaire. And he had this enormous empire, but he never got married, never had children. And I think he was actually probably quite a lonely guy. I never actually met him because he passed away just after he moved in, but we exchanged a few messages. But I actually knew one of his close aides, and they were there when he passed away.

And he'd actually had cancer. He'd spent something like $100 million on prostitutes, drink and drugs. But when he passed away, he said to this person that was there, he said, oh, how can I leave all this behind? But he'd had an amazing life and been around the world and done all these sorts of things. So I guess it depends how long that time period is

between perhaps you know you're going to die and you're dying. I mean, I've thought potentially what's worse, would you want to, you know, if you had a long, drawn-out illness, but at least you had time to do things. Oh, I'd rather go in my sleep. Would you rather go in my sleep? I think I'd rather go in my sleep and not know anything about it yeah i heard ricky gervais say the other day after his documentary afterlife he said that my one wish for humanity would be that everybody could die in their sleep

yeah that's actually quite a nice sentiment you know what i mean because then it's really the i think and this is a bit of a morbid topic but it's really the process of i think knowing that you you're going to pass that i think is is the cruel part because when i think about death i think you know how did i feel 100 years ago yeah that's how i feel when i'm dead i didn't feel anything i wasn't in pain i wasn't lonely i wasn't sad i wasn't depressed do you know what i mean i was just it's a sense of almost i think it depends what you've done in your life um and what you leave behind i really want to leave something iconic in sports nutrition because sports nutrition is my life i've done it i've been involved in it since i was you know 13 14 years old so to to hopefully do something big in an industry i'm passionate about and i love you know

i would like to look back and say you know what i couldn't have done anymore so if i leave something iconic that lives on after me i think that'd be great now most people do that through children but you know i'm the last of the Barretts. If I must, I've got a sister, but she can't have kids. So, you know, if I don't have children, that's it. We're done. And, you know, we've got generations of hard workers. So, you know, it's very often think, you know, potentially I will probably be thinking, oh, you know, we should have children or, you know, whatever.

So that potentially something could could could carry on because otherwise as well. What's it all for? You know, so if if most people again want to just make sure the kids are OK and look after their kids. But like I said, I can't do that. So I've you know, it's been fairly important to me the last few years to be involved in philanthropy in some other ways to try and make things better, you know, for the people and people who are less fortunate. So I would hope that, you know, friends and family around, depending on how many friends and family left at the time, I would hope, you know, would certainly look back and just think, oh, you know, he had a great life and worked hard and did everything he set out to do. Because actually, I don't have any regrets. And I think as long as you've got no regrets,

then I'd hate to look back and think, oh, I wish I'd done that. I wish I'd done that. So what about you? Are you scared of death? I'm not scared of death as long as I do myself justice. I think the only thing that I, kind of are you scared of death i'm i'm not scared of death um as long as i do myself justice yes i think the only thing that i it's kind of what you just said there like the only thing i'm really scared of is um regret and i just you know i just want to do myself justice i want to like fulfill my potential as you know if that's even possible yeah kind of like you know leave a legacy in terms of

in everybody that I encountered and hopefully they're their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids because of who I was and the way I conducted myself and the value that I brought to the world um it's really weird hearing yourself talk about yourself in past tense yeah I know yeah it is really especially when you're like half my age yeah no but I I think I got to I wrote in my diary when I was, and I've talked about this a lot in this podcast, I wrote in my diary at 18 years old when I was broke living in Gunside

or whatever they call it, where all the gun crime is in Manchester, just after dropping out. And I wrote in my diary that I wanted to be a millionaire, have a range over and all these things. And then by the age of 25, and I wrote before 25

and everyone's seen my diary, many pictures of it on the internet. I got there and there was this almost anti-climax feeling because I thought, right, I wrote before 25 and everyone's seen my diary, many pictures of it on the internet. I got there and there was this almost anti-climax feeling because I thought, right, I wrote down, I've got achieved everything that I set out to do. Like, I don't know what I was expecting. Some like marching band to come out and start being like, you've made it, like throw me in the air.

Yeah, but I'm sat in my boxer shorts in my house. I'm like, I've got to carry on tomorrow. So what do I do now? Just write more stuff that I want to get. And it got me thinking about at like 24 25 years old like what's the point and I think this podcast was inspired by me kind of searching for the point um in it all so that's I think why I ask the question a lot yeah I um you're absolutely spot on I've never thought of that before but I think yeah something that you've really worked hard for and looked forward to and it's something specific is probably never quite as good when you get there as you think it's going to be.

Yeah, you're right. What do you actually think it's going to feel like? When we did our first big deal with Grenade in 2014 to Grove Point Capital, they came in. And, you know, the brand's only four years old at that point. But, you know, we're having a day off. We're pretty tired. And they came in and they valued the business at $35 million. And, you know, we sold half the shares and rolled half the shares.

And that was before the bar was even created. So that was just a sports nutrition product. I remember feeling a tremendous sense of weight being lifted off me. But I think that was just the pressure of the deal and the roller coaster because they're on, they're off, they're on, they're off. You know, it's like it's a very, very invasive thing to go through because someone is actually just backing you. And I remember having a conversation,

and we're great friends still with GrowthPoint, and they're taking a tremendous gamble because they're about to make someone overnight incredibly wealthy. And that does weird things to people. And they didn't want to say that because they can't. But I just, actually, the night before the deal, I said, you're really on the fence about this, aren't you? And I said, are you worried I'm just going to basically just go off

and just start taking drugs and go off the rails? Because all of a sudden, you know, I've got money that worried I'm just going to basically just go off and just start taking drugs and go off the rails? Because all of a sudden, you know, I've got money that wasn't there a day ago or something. And he said, yeah. And I said, I can do all that now. And I said, honestly, if you're really that worried about it, don't do the deal. I said, let's not do the deal. And I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and let's just forget the whole thing. And I genuinely meant that. And it was a lot of money. But it really makes no difference, you know,

other than, like I said, being able to have options and just go and buy stuff. So I didn't really care one way or another whether the deal went ahead. And actually, after we had that conversation, it was fine, it went ahead. And, you know, they backed us to go and do what we said we'd do. Surprise, surprise, we exceeded what we said we'd do because that's what I think hopefully good entrepreneurs do. And, you know, we proved to the wider world that Alan and Juliet Barrett were backable. Next year, Lion Capital come along and they didn't hesitate twice to back us because we've got a track record of being backed. But that's not necessarily the case with lots of these businesses because, yeah, it does funny things to people and people go off the boil and become complacent.

And, you know, my problem is what to do with all the ideas I've got. I've actually filled iPads full of ideas. I don't know what else to do. But, yeah, you're right. They're having that bit of an anticlimax. So the point I'm making is the deal that night, the deal nearly got delayed because one of the banks involved just saw Grenade in a transaction and thought that we were arms dealers.

So the money got flagged and held up. So we did the deal but didn't get paid. The money went into escrow. So we signed half our company away and didn't get a penny for it. That was on the Friday until the Monday when the banks reopened. But we went home and literally I had a curry and I had a Cadbury's cream egg because I like Cadbury's cream eggs. I just wanted to treat myself to a cream egg. So that was a really weird way probably to celebrate.

Did you celebrate? No, not really. No. That was my celebration. I had a curry and a cream egg. But I don't drink. I don't smoke. I had a security business years ago, so I don't really want to go out to nightclubs. I can't. If I'm going to talk, I like to be able to talk. I don't want banging music over me and stuff.

Yeah, I don't really do celebrating as such. Not in that way. I should do, but... That's what I kind of learned, was that the distance between one accomplishment or one major sort of life achievement and the next is so, so far. And it's almost like I can liken it to climbing Mount Everest. You climb the mountain for, say, I don't know how long it takes,

let's say 30 days, and then you spend 10 minutes at the top. Yeah. And so really like 95%, 99% of life is in fact the climb and we we are not um very good for whatever reason as entrepreneurs at celebrating the steps up the mountain because they seem so gradual and insignificant so i'm trying to actively teach myself to get better at celebrating the journey because Because as you said earlier, the mountaintop for me, and probably doesn't exist. No, and at some point,

are you worried about having to come back down? As in, how would you mean? As in like failing or selling out or? Either, still coming back down. Do you know what? The problem is the higher the high, the lower the low. Yeah, of course. It's going to the problem is the higher the high the lower of course it's gonna be one hell of a fall from the top of mount everest um i don't actually worry

about failure and this is probably i think our businesses are slightly different in a sense because my i feel like and maybe i'm wrong here I feel like my business, we sell a way of thinking and ideas. It's less tangible. It's less tangible. Yeah, we make stuff. Yeah. I feel like we're slightly less dependent on, I guess, distribution and retail. And we haven't got these big boys that are powering over us that can shut us down.

Yeah. And that's a bit of a worry for me yeah so i actually and also because of where i come from like i you know this business was started like two miles down the road in a boarded up house yeah right and i was there for every day of that climb so the thought of me going i was happy back in that house i was as happy then as i am now me too like not in the house because i wasn't there but the same do you know what i mean like so so if you take me back there i know i'm going to be happy and i also know i've got way more of what really matters yeah inside my head than i did when i started so i'm like well take me back and it'll be quicker and it'll be i'll do things so much

differently and i'll just and i enjoy the journey the start is always was for me the most enjoyable part as well so i'm not scared of it i don't't want to go back. No, no, no, you don't, yeah. Yeah, because, you know, I think the hustler slightly changes in you. You still work, I give everything, but different type of work. I'm not scared of going back, but I wouldn't want to.

No. I saw, I've seen a lot of photos of you and Richard Branson. Okay, well, yes, I've thought about it, and now we have to do it. Yeah, I feel like, I don't know Richard Branson, but I've read his books and stuff like that. I feel like he shared a lot of traits,

specifically with the whole fearlessness thing. Because every time we mention something, even the fact that you fly a plane, you're very just like, right, it's in my head, now I'm doing it. Yeah.

Just do it. Yeah. Where does that come from? Does that come from somewhere? It's so easy, isn't it? Just to be scared of everything and just to do nothing. Actually, my dad's a lot like this. He worked really hard. And I guess he only worked for himself. So he took risk. But he would always look at the downside potentially. So

he never really encouraged me to go and do more. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But you know, if I'd just gone in a van drive for him, he'd just been very happy for me because he could understand that because he could see you do it and he'd know what was involved. Whereas, you know, if I'd say, I want to go and do this, this and this, the first thing he'd say would be, well, what if it doesn't work? And you think, well, what if it does? And I think we probably get that a lot. I mean, don't get me wrong, you don't want to get fearlessness mixed up with just blatant stupidity and being reckless. But, you know, we went into the US,

like I said, my wife and I, on our own to sell products. The first thing we did before we actually got there, you know, we went to one of the big fitness shows, which was the Mr. Olympia, went over there as consumers before we took the brand there just to see what we were getting into. And we went in, so we did that. That was our due our due diligence we went in we thought what what's everyone else doing if we rock up and do our thing and we're going to bring a tank in and we're going to bring in the best team

we can get from the uk are we going to make fools of ourselves you know and we decided you know what there's no one here that scares us not in an arrogant way but you've got to have that sense of fearlessness because if you don't you'll just never do anything and it's just so easy to say no and then you just say no to everything your whole life then you get to regret and think oh i wish i'd done that i can't think of anything i wish i'd done to be honest other than maybe wishing i'd done the same things but sooner so yeah i'd say to anyone if you're just gonna go gonna go and do it just just do it you know what's the worst that can happen that was a great point and i want to get more like um some more advice from you based on your business experience and your success as a young entrepreneur i'm not successful remember oh yeah as your what can we

refer to as we can say success so far you've you've been success it's funny journey so far the journey so far from your journey so far what are the key things pieces of advice you would give to an aspiring entrepreneur? Someone sat in their bedroom right now listening to this with an idea that they've been considering, but they're umming and ahhing. What would you say to them? You're speaking right into their ear, sat in their bedroom or on the train or at work. What would your advice be to get them to go from thinking about something, umming and ahhing, to where you're sat right now? I mean, for me, I mean, as I just said, you know, just do it, but commit to it. Don't half do it. I can only speak for myself and it depends what the idea is and what the person is like and what the downside could be if it all went horribly wrong. So let's play a game. I've never done this before.

I'm going to pretend to be that person. Okay. And I'm going to rebuttal you. Okay. And I'm basically going to rebuttal you with everything that I hear in my direct messages. So you just told me just to do it. I'm going to say, well, I'll do it like next year because I don't have enough money right now and I need to pay my rent. And I'm also, my mum has told me that uh you know she needs help because she's got an illness so I need to provide for her okay how will circumstances be different in a year's time how will you have more money or time uh a year from a year from now um I feel like I'll be ready

then okay but you so you're not ready now I don't feel like I'm ready now okay I mean it sounds like you don't want to do it so if you don't want to do it. So if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't do it. But I do really want to do it because I've seen, you know, a lot of... Have you got time to do it? I mean, I work a full-time job in a call centre. Okay. So you've got your evenings and you've got your weekends. So you can make time if you want to do it.

Is there a way you can do it so you can test the water somehow? Can you do it somehow part-time? Could you involve your mum in the business somehow? Is it something that she could help with? Maybe. It's like I want to start a hairdressing salon. So it's probably going to be hard to do it in the evenings and weekends. I really, really want to do it though.

Okay. But can people come to you evenings and weekends or can you go to them? Can you be mobile? Does it have to be a physical site? Rather than commit to a physical site, can you build up a client list and go to them? Can you be mobile? Does it have to be a physical site? Rather than commit to a physical site, can you build up a client list and go to them and do an amazing job and get them to tell their family and friends so that you can go to them as well and actually build up a client list so then you can have your own location and people come to you? Is that a possibility?

I just don't know where to start. Okay. Are you cutting anyone's hair at the moment? I do my sister's and her friends. Okay. And so she's got friends. So how many clients is that? There's about eight girls in total. There's about eight. Okay.

So you're doing that. And do they come to you or do you go to them? I go to their houses. Okay. And that's evenings and weekends? Weekends predominantly, yeah. So do more of the same. You're already doing it.

Now you just need to expand it. But look at it the other way. What does good look like? What's the dream? What would you like to have i want to own the the biggest luxury salon chain in the country i just don't know where to start because i'm cutting their hair you've got to start by cutting hair and not working in a call center yeah i'm cutting the hair but i've only got so many um so much time on the weekends and also so hang on a minute so what else do you do at the weekend

so what's more important at the weekend than now? Than you taking a step towards your dream of having the, let's say, global chain of hair salons. What else are you doing at the weekend? So you wake up, it's Saturday morning. What are you doing all day? You've got all day to do whatever you want. Netflix. Netflix. Okay, there you go.

So you do have time. You just choose to spend that time doing something else. But now there's just excuses creeping in. So do you have time to You just choose to spend that time doing something else. But now there's just excuses creeping in. So do you have time to brush your teeth every day? Yeah. Okay, so you find time to do that. So there's nothing wrong with starting off small. Everyone starts off small.

I started off small. When I had my distribution business back in 99, my first sale was five pounds. I lost money on it. I drove a box of flapjacks about a seven or eight mile round trip in the back of my car to leave it in a gym

for him to pay me two weeks later. So I had to make two trips to make five pounds. But that was the first way I got my first gym. And I ended up supplying hundreds of gyms. You have to start somewhere. Everything you do from this point on

should be a step towards that goal, no matter how small. Because at the moment, working in a call centre and watching Netflix is not a step towards that goal. If you want that financial freedom, you want to change your life, only you can change it.

It's not going to change around you i think that's brilliant um i i don't think i've talked you into it no i know but i'm gonna come back you know he's gonna be he's gonna be he's gonna be a hairdresser but that's that's literally all out of the job now that's literally the narrative that i hear all the time is i i really feel like i want this thing right but i think you've hit the nail on the head. Actions don't align with the goal. Yeah, they don't. And it's so frustrating.

It is, yeah. Let's rewind 10 years. So we're doing the podcast. I haven't started Grenade yet, okay? So I come to you and I go, right, I want to make a fat burner product, but I'm going to put it in a Grenade bottle so it really, really stands out.

But the bottle doesn't exist, so I've got to go and make it. And then there's only me and my wife. We haven't got any money, but we've got four cats, and we work really hard. But we're going to do that. But really the end game is, well, I want to take on Cadbury's, and I want to then learn, and we want to supply the military, and we want to have fat burners. Then we want to take all the fat burner technology, and we're going to make protein bars. And no one's eating protein bars.

We're going to make everyone eat protein bars and we're going to put them everywhere and all the locations where you'd never find a protein bar we're going to put them in there everyone's going to love it we're going to go all around the world and it's not going to make any sense

but we're going to make an absolute fortune and someone's going to come in and pay hundreds of millions of pounds for it you'd probably go Al what are you smoking? I would have definitely not invested but you'd have been? I would have definitely not invested. But you'd have been wrong.

I would have been wrong and I definitely wouldn't have invested. I think I would never have discouraged you at that point because my belief was something like that. You're bigger than me, significantly bigger than me. But also, in my head, the first thing my brain thinks is, it doesn't really matter what you've said to me you're going to accomplish in that case, right? All that matters is you. And don't at that point i wouldn't have known you cared no but do you know what i'm saying i'm saying like that's a huge ambition and the pattern that i've seen with successful entrepreneurs is a lot of them have big ambitions and at the end of the day it just comes down to the person do you know what i was just about While you were saying that, one of the best attributes anyone can have over and above education, financial means, just about luck, I think just about anything else I can think of, personality. How many times do you meet someone?

Because actually, I'm just me, like you're just you. So you kind of take it for granted because you know we're us but actually when i meet people i've known for 20 30 years um and they go oh we always knew you do well no matter what you did because because i'm just the type of person to go out and make it work because i'm determined and irrational lots of other things but personality goes a long way and that's actually one of the things i learned from working back in the gym, you know, back in the day, 20 years ago, is personality goes a long way. And I think, you know, having a decent memory and, you know, we had 500 members, I knew everyone's first name. And that's really important to people. And it's good just for, you know, to learn and memory is important. But you could see what it means to people, the fact that you've taken the trouble to know the name. And I think some of the things I learned there for free,

interacting with people, learning what people like, don't like, all this stuff we actually put into the brand in some of the simplest forms. Again, firstly, making it really memorable because all the weight loss products at the time had all got really silly names that no one could remember. So having something simple. All the competitors at the time were like 12 capsules. Well, I knew from talking to people in the gym

that people forgot to take capsules or just didn't like taking capsules. We thought, well, why is it 12? Why don't we make it four? So it's just back to that point of learning all the time. But yeah, personality. Personality is key. My take on that and why personality would be so key

is because, as I've said a few times, the only thing that really exists in the world is other people. Like there's not like physical barriers that are going to stop you from being successful. In my mind, it's just a bunch of people that you have to convince of your ideas or your products or get to love what you've created. And so personality kind of links to the mover of these human obstacles, which is like sales, being able to sell your product, your brand, and personality, as I can see from you.

If you walked in and I was the managing director of Tesco, because of your enthusiasm and your love and your energy, I'd believe in what you were telling me. I think that's definitely hopefully the first win is, I'm not saying I'm likeable, but hopefully being likeable or even just being memorable if you're not likeable, just being memorable. And I think then quickly followed up with doing what you said you'd do

and doing it well. Or again, yeah, just exceeding expectations. And actually that conversation has actually happened with Tesco recently where we've now got a probably six-year relationship with them. And stuff that we said we do, we've gone and done and we've done it better than they thought they'd do. Now we've got some credibility with them and actually more importantly some trust.

And trust is one of those really infallible things that it's either there or it's not. Because people say, oh yeah, well I trust him 90%. You don't trust them then. Because you can't trust someone 90 it doesn't make any sense you either do or you don't it's back to my black and white thing again um yeah and actually they said you know what if you say you'll do it you'll you'll yeah you'll go and do it on that point how because that sounded a lot and i what people, I think some people will be thinking, oh, that sounds like visualization, you know, and it yeah I was in the back of a cab in New York and I'm talking to this girl that I've um that I just started talking to this was a couple of years ago and sat in the back of the cab and she's asking me like you know how I created the business and things like this and I'm just like you know hard work etc and she goes yeah you willed

it into existence and I go what do you mean by that she goes well you can think about something and if you just really want it it happens and I go, what do you mean by that? She goes, well, you can think about something. And if you just really want it, it happens. And I was trying to explain to her that that's not exactly like how it goes. She literally said to me, you can think something into existence. You can think about it. And then it appears. And I went, what, with like out all the heart?

She was like, yeah, I got out the cab. I got out the cab in the middle. We had this massive argument in this car. Because she genuinely believes if you just think about something, you can make it happen. And I got out the cab in the middle of the street. No, wait, this is wrong. She got out the cab.

Okay. Maybe it was really... I chased after her and I got back into the cab because I didn't want it to be unsafe. But it really frustrates me, this idea that you can just think about something. And there's this book called The Secret, which has kind of influenced people into thinking in this way.

So I wanted to get your take on that. It reminds me of, I'm not really, I don't read many books, because I don't really have that much time. So I'm ashamed to say. But there's a lot of these kind of, I'm not into self-help books and all these, and that sounds like it's along that vein of, yeah, just think about it and it'll happen,

and positive thinking. Now, don't get me wrong. I do think negative thoughts are probably toxic, so you should try and avoid them and try and have positivity. But, yeah, you know, positivity is great, but it's not going to get you out of, you know, lots of situations. There's been a lot of this, you know, four hour work week and take control of your life and you can make millions of pounds, but you work three hours a year and all that stuff.

And I think I just don't get that at all. Maybe it's just what I've been exposed to in me, but I don't know anyone who has built a meaningful business, and I'm not talking about in terms of size, whether it's your local butchers or a global media business, that hasn't put in a lot of sacrifice and hard work and had the timing and the tailwinds that we talked about. I can't think of one. I can't think of someone who just woke up one morning, had an idea, didn't really do it very well, and then all of a sudden it was just John Nirmis. They made loads of money and then everyone lived happily ever after. I just don't think that's happened. Even if you look at the likes of Amazon and the stories of Jeff Bezos, like on his first desk was he's

off his door and all this. And surely, yeah, I just yeah, when people start talking about the power of positive thinking and self-help and they take away all the things we talked about, like consistency and timing and hard work and stuff, yeah, I'd rapidly tune out as well to be honest so i think i probably would have i wouldn't have let her back in the cab let her take a chance in the bronx it was it's so

frustrating um i again i completely agree i believe that positive thinking and knowing where you want to go matters but then i liken it to like getting in a car you set the sat nav but then you turn the key and drive yeah just setting the sat nav leaves you in the garage yes i mean so yeah it does i think we might have been separated at birth no yeah it's entirely likely definitely yeah but now that's it i mean like i said yeah if you're just standing still yeah you're learning nothing um so it comes back to that learning piece again and just doing it really. So we'd always really try and encourage that. And I think as well,

I get asked to look and invest in lots of businesses and so far I haven't actually invested in any businesses because first of all, they mostly want some time, which I don't have. I don't necessarily see that many people who I think are potentially that investable. And I think nowadays as well, because crowdfunding has been a thing and people,

it's probably easier now than ever to obtain funding or obtain money, even if it's just the three Fs, friends, family and fools, to get to invest in you. But people almost go off and start investing money, but they don't actually use their own money or they don't take a risk on their own money and someone said to me years ago with business you know i've always used my own money it's always been my risk it's been on me if it went wrong it hurts me and no one else um and and that i think now is quite rare people do like to go and borrow money from as many people as they can but then if it doesn't work it just yeah it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't hurt them so you do need people to have skin in the game

and businesses i've looked at um over the last few years they just don't have enough skin in the game if you know there's almost no incentive for them to do well we had to do well um because we put everything into it there was there was there was no going back and you know if if i had to go and dig holes in the road for £10 a day, I'd just, you know, hand me the shovel. I'd start digging. I'd finish the day with £10 more than I started with. And at least while I'm doing it, I'll be thinking, I'll be learning.

I'll be thinking, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. How can I not dig holes for £10? So, you know, I get the fact people get caught in ruts and stuff as well. But, yeah, people should be holding themselves accountable, you know, I get the fact people get caught in, in, um, in, in ruts, um, and stuff as well. But yeah, people should be holding themselves accountable, I think, for if it goes wrong. Yeah. How does it hurt them? We can talk all day.

Yeah. Let me, let me ask you one more question then. This is more of a, again, a little bit of a game. Dinner party. Question I ask a lot of people. There's six seats at the table. Two of them are occupied by myself and you. Okay. There's four seats for me. I'm not sure I to invite you to my party. I ask a lot of people. There's six seats at the table. Two of them are occupied by myself and you. Okay.

There's four seats remaining. I'm not sure I'd invite you. Well, I'm at my house. Yeah, okay. So we've got no choice. I thought it was my dinner party. Fine. I'm cooking.

You're cooking. So ordering the delivery at Uber Eats. There's four seats remaining. You can invite anybody to those seats, dead or alive. I'm going to make a few rules. You can't, unfortunately, invite your wife on this occasion. Okay, fine. She's vegan.

She's vegan. You're cooking steak. She's not vegan, fine. Oh, she's not. No. But you can invite anybody dead or alive. Who would you invite and why would you invite them? Okay.

It's very hard to do this game because I've put you on the spot there. So what I tend to advise is just like, what are those names that popped into your mind? Yeah, I mean, you start to gravitate towards people that I know, I like and I respect. I would, I'd definitely ask Richard, I'd ask the big man, Mr. Branson, just because I never, ever, ever get bored of talking to him.

And, you know, he's got 50 years of business experience and he's just a thoroughly bloody nice bloke. What's the one thing you've learned from him? Oh, I mean, definitely about being yourself. And, again, humility. He has got this amazing energy that anyone who's around him just picks up on. On it, it's incredible. And just the fact he really cares.

He really, really cares. So I've seen him, you know, he's just genuinely concerned about people. It's actually, it's quite miraculous to watch because they say don't meet your idols, don't they, because you'll be disappointed. But yeah, he goes far and above what you'd actually, your wildest dreams, what you'd expect as one of probably the world's best known people and most successful people.

But again, he doesn't consider himself successful. And frankly, I just don't know how he does it. I don't know how he crams everything in. And that's quite remarkable. So definitely him. I would, one of my first early mentors that no one's going to know,

but I was actually a guy called Stuart Sapkett. And I trained Stuart when I was 15, 16 years old. I was his personal trainer. And again, he taught me, and he doesn't't he didn't know he did this but again wildly successful guy very very uh low-key so no one would have heard of him big property development business again really really nice guy and he just always looked after me and sort of treated me like her son really got lots of good advice always very honest and again i saw again with him i think how to treat people i think and how to behave so he he was a um a great uh mentor still kept in touch with

him and his wife so i i'd invite him and again him and him and richard would get on um in terms of other people these are going to sound really obvious i I'd have to invite Jeff Bezos. Really? Yeah, I'd have to invite Jeff Bezos. What do you admire or like about him? I mean, again, I think just the ability to disrupt, transform. I mean, I learned this week, for instance, all the things they've done that have failed, and there's a lot,

and they've spent billions on stuff that's failed and there's a lot and they've they've spent billions on stuff that's failed and just the ability to just fail quickly and and plow on um and disrupt and put the consumer first and again you know starting off with an idea of just selling books and then now it's just it's everything um u.s commerce oh it's it's just insane um and doing that in like 20 25 years i mean it's pretty it's pretty spectacular um you know don't know what he's like as a person and well i don't know if you'd like your cooking um probably not but i think it'd be very interesting to get into the the mindset and again i like to meet people and see what they're like because if you write if you read a a book for instance been ghost written by someone else you never really know you want to look in someone's eyes don't you

and just that emotion you pick up on that so I'd invite him I'd just be interested to know what makes him tick plus him and Richard would argue about space

because they're big space competitors so that would be fun so if the food was bad we could literally sit back and just watch the two of them just tear chunks

out of each other which again actually Richard wouldn't do because he doesn't get annoyed i don't know if jeff does but i think watch them have an intellectual competitive conversation uh would be good how many of you got left i've got one more seat okay um i'm gonna tell you now go on i would like it to be a female i was just gonna say it's gonna a woman, isn't it? And it can't be my wife. Oh, that's cruel. Because, yeah, she's very entertaining as well. Do you know what I'd do?

I'd invite my mum. That'd be interesting. I'd bring my mum. Just because she wouldn't get a lot of the conversation, but she's really lovely. And Stuart likes her I think Richard would like her

and I'd like her to sit back and be proud I think I'd really like her to be proud so I think we'd like to eat your food

and then I don't think it'd probably sink in with her but if we sat there you know with her son and Sir Richard and a few other

people she wouldn't know jeff bezos that'd be quite funny because she'd say what do you do and and and yeah yeah yeah and he'd say everything and and he'd go i own it i own a website or whatever she'd go oh it'll never take off or what if it doesn't work that's what you do yeah and we'd all be laughing um And she'd carry on anyway. And my mum's a very, very, very slow eater, so it would be a very long dinner conversation. So hence we'd get maximum benefit out of everyone else there. What's your mum taught you?

If there was one thing you think, because I can think of, when I think of my mum, there's the overarching lesson, I think, that she taught me. What's the one thing that you think your mum taught you? Definitely hard work. Yeah, real you know compassion um you know really caring um and you know did it again did a great job of raising me and my sister with just you know very uh little means at her disposal um i remember saying once you know we were having quite a hard time as a family and she said you know if she had to work her fingers to the bone,

she'd make sure we're okay. So, and, you know, when I was 12, I really wanted like a Sega Master System, like it was the computer system at the time, which I actually just went and re-bought a couple of weeks ago. It's like 30 years old

and it still works. But I went and, because I sold mine, which I regretted, so I'm buying back my childhood stuff. So I went and bought another one. But, you know, she went back

because she couldn't my mum's got quite poor health she's got osteoporosis but she actually went back to work to save up to buy me that games console for when I was like 12 so I'd like to say I felt bad at the time but I probably didn't

but I feel bad now so I bought them a bungalow so it's fine I swapped a games console for a bungalow so they've got a bungalow in Dorset. So I did that. But yeah, I'd like to think I've made them proud. But the thing is, mum and dad as well are proud of no matter what I did.

All mum's ever said is, I just want you to be happy. Because I've always been happy. She's always been proud. So as long as you're happy. But yeah, so there you go. There's the six. That's great. Thank you so much. Many of the people you'd invite to the table are the same that I'd invite. I'd definitely invite Richard and Jess for sure. There's the six. That's great. Thank you so much.

Many of the people you'd invite to the table are the same that I'd invite. I'd definitely invite Richard and Jeff for sure. I hope you don't invite my mum. Probably not. I don't know why. That's slightly weird. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff and Richard definitely. And yourself, of course. Obviously. Yeah. Genuinely deserve all the success that you've had, even though you won't admit you've had success. Oh, thank you. And it's good to know that people like you

are getting what they deserve out of life because that's not always the case so but thank you again for taking the time to come up here because i know how busy you are you're much i really wanted to make it a priority because you know likewise and i um i i'm not one of these i don't tend to follow many people that i don't know i haven't met but every time i see some of your stuff on um linkedin or whatever i always watch it because it's always profound and it gets back to that learning piece i always want to try and think you know i want to i want to learn stuff because very different businesses different stages in um careers but we'll have a lot of the same issues and problems so it's really interesting to learn so again thanks for the invite really means a lot thank you so much thank you thank you Thank you. Thank you.