The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - E41: The Heaton Brothers: From Horwich to Hollywood

Episode Date: November 14, 2019

Brothers, best friends and business partners, The Heaton Brothers share more than just their parents. George and Mike Heaton are the founders of the world-renowned streetwear brand, Represent. The 26 and 28 year old initially started Represent in their ...

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. So I'm stood outside the shop in Manchester with my friend. I'm 24 or 25 years old, about two years ago, and this kid, apparently my age, pulls up in front of me in this big black Rolls-Royce. There I am scratching my head. Who the fuck is this guy? Dressed incredibly well, young, good looking. Apparently lives in the same city as me, but I've never met him before. And my friend turns to me and says, Oh, they're the Represent Brothers.

They run that clothing line. And this was the first time I had ever heard about George and Mike Heaton. The brothers behind the world-renowned clothing brand Represent. And listen, this isn't just any old streetwear brand. This is a streetwear brand won by the likes of 2 Chainz, the Kardashians, Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber asked if he could wear their brand and asked them to send him stuff. But the brand hasn't always been globally renowned. The now 26 and 28-year-old entrepreneur brothers initially started Represent in their dad's back garden.

And once they'd outgrown their dad's back garden, they moved into the house. And once they'd made enough money selling Represent out of the house, they got their own place. They're now five years into running this business and their annual turnover has increased from 1.8 million in 2014 to nearly 10 million in 2018. The brand is now stocked in over 160 outlets around the country. Harvey Nichols, Selfridges, you name it. And this brand is different. And here's the context. We live in a world where everybody is making clothing lines. It's seen as the low hanging fruit to being an entrepreneur. You just get a t-shirt and stick a logo on it, start an Instagram page, launch a Shopify store and start selling.

That's the world we live in. It's like the first business that everybody defaults to. But when I look at represent, when you look at the Instagram, when you look at what the brand stands for, they are just different. And I'm not saying this to kiss ass. I've thought this for the longest time. So I had to invite them on this podcast and find out what's driving that unique inspiration. And when I heard that they were two brothers, that added another layer to my curiosity. What's it like running a business with your brother? Who does what? Do you argue? How do you overcome the hard times? In this week's episode, we discuss the early days, how they started out in their dad's back garden, how their family took it, their friends, relationships, pros and cons, mental health, and everything in between.

So without further ado, this is The Dairiva CEO, and I'm Stephen Butler. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Mike and George, it's a real pleasure to have you here. I am, as someone that's remarkably uninspiringly dressed usually, I just tend to wear black because it's safer. I've really looked up to you guys as role models in a fashion sense because you've always, it's felt like from me looking from afar that you've always had a very unique style. And once I discovered Represent as a brand, I was super, super inspired to meet you because it's clearly got a very unique sort of perspective on fashion. And so it's a real

pleasure to meet you today and to have you here. You're two entrepreneurs from the city that I started my business in as well. So there's tons of things there that I want to ask about Manchester and being business owners, etc. But first, I guess the question is um how did represent all start for you i'd love to i heard a story about a garage in your dad's uh garden so yeah so back in 2012 i was just finishing college which was a b-tech graphic design course which i'd done because mike had done that and it looked cool and the last project was actually to create something graphic based that you could sell right and at the time we was working for our dad on the weekends and helping him sell minibuses and that was what we

didn't want to do we wanted to sell our art so this was a big push for me to actually start something that could create our futures um so i took down a list of names that i liked and representing was one of them and I thought that's kind of cool it kind of it's kind of like about us um how we're going to display the clothes um and then I just took the ing off and it became represent and we screen printed that onto 25 t-shirts which cost 150 pounds at a time and it went it went from there yeah and so where did where did the business start where was your sort of first office per se so my dad had well actually it was in my bedroom i still have the stickers on my wardrobe cabinets saying small medium large excel to this day which is pretty cool but

that's where i started in my bedroom whilst i was going to university every day i was packaging orders at 6am taking them to the post office going to university coming home trying to design something going to sleep doing it all again the same day repetitively. Eventually we got enough stock to move into a shed that my dad had in Backgarden. Lovely shed, it's actually made of bricks, got windows in it, which is great. Oh really? That's a bloody mansion. So that was our first office, so we didn't have any outgoings because we didn't have employees and my dad let us use that and eventually that got swamped with clothes and then the garage got

swamped with clothes and then the kitchen and the living room and upstairs was swamped with clothes but my mom and dad absolutely loved it because we were making money doing something that we loved so and how old were you at that point i was 19 and you must have been 21 21 yeah yeah you know i was gonna wait and ask this question but i really just want to ask it now what's what's it like working with your brother i'm sure you get asked this a lot but mike maybe you can answer that nice it's good we're like um complete opposites so it's a bit of like a yin and a yang um type situation George is more of a go get it, do it now, make it happen. And I'm more of like a perfectionist type.

Because I'm like more the creative director in the company. Care more about the product and the design. From what you've said there, I'm guessing George is a little bit more impatient. Very impatient. I have zero patience always have to normal life um that's just how it is mike has the most patience so kind of works because i i i create things give it to him he'll finish it off and i'm interested in fashion i just don't feel like i've got the time to invest in making myself look good. So I think this is part of the reason I just go for all black every day

because it's, you know, if it stains, no one's going to talk shit about me, et cetera, et cetera. But your clothing and the brand that you've created feels so unique compared to a lot of the stuff

that I see on from sort of these like Alibaba brands that are popping up on Instagram where some guy from Love Island just writes a word on a shirt and says that the brand has meaning. How have you done that? And what's the sort of unique inspiration behind that?

I think when we was growing up as kids, we were different to everyone else in school, the way we dressed and what we listened to and the way we had our hair. And we just, we weren't in the same kind of culture of what the local communities were to us so we had our own look all the way through school and that that kind of created the actual the the identity of the brand what we wanted to wear is what we create we don't make anything that we won't wear

ourselves that's like because that our Because our brand is our personal journey. Our inspirations are what we find around us, but we play it in a way that's different to everyone else. And do you think that if you launched your brand today versus when you launched it, it would have had the same success it's had? Because it's a slightly more saturated market. At this age that I'm at now and with the knowledge that I've got, yeah, I could recreate it, definitely. Definitely. slightly more saturated at this age that I'm at now and with the knowledge that I've got yeah

yeah we could recreate it definitely definitely we'd probably struggle for the first part because we built a core fan base over the past

so many years which which is always growing but to then restart that again it would be difficult and everything changed the climate's changed

the social media's changed the way you sell things has changed so I don't know it'd be good I'd love to try it again anyway I think going back change the climate's changed the social media's changed the way you sell things has changed so i don't know it'd be good i'd love i'd love to try again anyway i think going back to that identity question it'd still have a strong identity because we'd still be doing things that we can relate to in like the prints and the fits and stuff like that and because it comes from a really real place it must be it would be pretty easy to yeah there's no there's no trend forecasting

there's no looking on other people's websites saying, oh, this looks cool, let's do this, which everyone seems to be doing now and everyone's creating the same things. But when you're the creator of that one product, everyone knows who did it first. And on that point, you must get knocked off all the time. Oh, yeah, every day.

I mean, Manchester's the hub of that. This is the city of knockoffs. How does it feel? I love it. It's like a backhanded compliment. Yeah. Does it piss you off a little bit? Used to back in the day.

I used to retaliate to it, especially on my Instagram stories. Tell me what you did. Because, listen, let's just, full disclosure, on my Instagram I get knocked off all the time, not to the same degree, because you guys, I could not compare the shitty Twitter quotes and the videos that I make to like the art that you create. But I talked on this podcast about getting knocked off one day, this guy got 250,000 retweets for creating something that I made, and my how I was triggered at the start and over time how I've me and my team have come to come to sort of at peace with it now because it's part of the game it's an unavoidable part of this game but talk to me about the first time you got triggered about being knocked off oh it'd be the first time there was a brand right another UK brand that would

literally find our factories use our suppliers take the same cottons make the same kind of clothes and then put everything down five pounds really but like people aren't going to buy that people aren't going to buy something that's a ripoff of something else and slightly cheaper if you're going to do it it needs to be half the price and it needs to it still needs to be relevant to who you're selling it to because the same customer is not going to go and buy yours if they've already seen it somewhere else at a similar price. That brand never really frustrated me. The only things that do frustrate me are when it's an exact copy,

where it's literally someone's bought a pair of pants, sent it to China, and stitch to stitch it's the same. Right. And then, yeah, I'll shout about it on my story. But as a funny thing, I'll fill it with laughing faces. Sure. There's so many young people that try and start brands. This question is kind of similar to the one I just asked.

There's so many young people on my Instagram and in my friendship circle that one of the first things they think of doing because it's a product that i guess is close to all of our hearts and it's something that we all somewhere in our our own egos think that we can create um and be successful like they all try and start clothing brands it seems it seems like the first one of the first businesses everybody tries to start yeah it's like every man and his dog's got a clothing brand now. But when we started, there wasn't that issue. Yeah, that wasn't a thing. I think it came with time.

It started as a merch thing for bands when we first launched. And then you see the waves of people coming, thinking they can do it and more people do it. And then eventually some of those brands gained attraction. And then, yeah, everyone started it. That's all we get DMs about every day is, like, what advice can you give? And so if I was, say I'm 23, and I'm like, George Mike, I just want one tip.

Okay. And I'll give you a grand for the tip. I'm going to give you a thousand pounds. I just want one tip on how I can succeed within the fashion world. Give me one tip each. I'll give you a grand each in this hypothetical question. Make sure you're 100% passionate about going down that route. And why is that so important?

I think you've got to live it. You've got everything. You've got to breathe it. You've got to sleep it. You've got to dream about it at night. You've got to be thinking about it whilst you're eating in the morning. You've got to be in the gym

thinking about it. It's more of a dedicated lifestyle than it is just creating a brand that you can work on at night. What about you, Mike? Mine would just like stay true to your identity yeah especially like in this climate now people on social media reacting to trends straight away they're just losing that and that'd be a good thing to have now and on that point george that you said about really living it how much of your life does represent and running this business? A hundred percent.

Yeah? Everything. Absolutely everything, isn't it? Yeah. What's the biggest misconception as, I'm going to go back to being that 21-year-old kid that just asked you that question. When I'm looking at your life on Instagram and I'm seeing, you know, you dress so well,

you go to nice places sometimes, I'm sure. I'm sad that you've got a nice watch on, Mike. Thank you. Really nice watch on mike thank you really nice watch on and i'm looking forward there oh sorry i didn't see yours it was on the jumper also nice mike if you're selling and i'm seeing your life what what is the biggest misconception that i have as this 21 year old kid that's about to try and follow you down that path what's the what's the biggest thing that i'm not seeing you're not seeing the the work behind everything um and how long it actually takes to produce that end result that is getting showed that I'm not seeing? You're not seeing the work behind everything

and how long it actually takes to produce that end result that is getting showed on Instagram. I actually now try to show everything. I take a videographer with me everywhere I go and show the process of the production and that six months of a collection being made to actually then putting out as a campaign and going on sale.

So I do try and communicate that myself, which a lot of brand owners don't do because the fashion industry is so fast reacting and so quickly to move on from things that that whole thing is lost. The process is lost. Like you can go and look at an amazing Dior jacket in a shop. You don't know the process of how that's been made

and where the inspiration comes from because they're already six months ahead showing a runway show for the next collection so I try and step back and actually create a showing of what really goes into behind the products. I think like how personal it is as well is a big thing that people don't realize like yeah you can create one or two products starting off but then when it gets to like 150 and you're designing them products with like they have to be things that you can relate to you can draw inspiration from you can resonate to like they they it's it's quite it's quite a personal thing i think um people don't appreciate that as well because that's what i say when I say it's like art

you know I can imagine because your stuff feels so unique it's not like everything else that I see so it's crystal clear that it's coming from a it can become quite daunting you know when you think about it that way and in terms of sacrifice people don't really get to

see that either what's the sacrifice been for you to building this business relationships um we're gonna talk about family time yeah everything gets sacrificed i mean we live the brand but luckily not friendships because i employed all my best friends starting off that's how it became became like a family run brand really because we would, we didn't really know what we were doing and we didn't have specific job roles for people and we'd never structured a business before. So we'd take people as we were growing and trying to, they would learn along the ways with us. So I've always got a strong

group of, like my core team is like my best friends. That's really interesting. Not a lot of businesses would take that. Everyone says that's the worst decision you could make and they have done from the start, but I love it. What's the dynamics like when you're working with friends? Because I can only imagine working with my best friend. I think I would have probably suffocated him by now

with a pillow or something because we're, because someone, it's almost the same thing with working with a brother because you are so close. There's almost, I would imagine, and again, I'm just guessing, the professionalism barrier, which is often demonstrated within a professional environment, probably, I'm guessing again, isn't there. So it's like, if you piss me off, you're a prick. But I wouldn't say that, you know, well. Yeah, I think you've just got to have a mutual respect

through and through. And if you're both on the same paths and you both see the same vision, then it's not too difficult. Yeah, there's different perks with it. I mean, you do get that, but then again, you can trust that person a lot more than you could somebody else who you don't know you talk there about your team hiring people is isn't easy but

it's so incredibly important what have you learned about hiring over the years that it's a really difficult process when especially when it's not someone you know i mean the first five six people that we hired were friends so we know know their background. We know their abilities and what their habits are. So when you're bringing people in, especially close to you as you call a team, and you don't know their habits and you don't know what they're like from a personal point of view, it is difficult.

And sometimes you've got to bite the bullet on things and sometimes you've got to see how it goes. But you understand that's why there's a probation period and stuff like that. Yeah, because even if you interview someone... Oh, it can all be absolutely amazing in the interview and they can bring in all this work that they've done and all this work that they've actually done for your brand

and then it can come into the brand and it can just be a completely different story. In order to work at Represent, and I'm sure a lot of people would love to what's the one thing that you each look for in a person that you're looking to hire great mindset great mindset yeah just to see if they can relate to the brand as well yeah for me it's a work ethic mindset right um i adore the people that come in and they're in on time and they leave on time and they get the work done. That's what it's all about for me.

And that's kind of like the fundamentals, isn't it, really? Yeah, exactly, yeah. One of our mutual friends, Adam, who runs a restaurant in Manchester, he invited you down to Tattoo when he had that sort of closed-door night with Justin Bieber. I remember seeing you there. And from what I read online, Justin Bieber gave you a pretty big compliment.

Yeah, so we came in to tattoo. The other brother, Drew, invited us. I had to say the code word on the door. Yeah. A bit strange from Manchester. Yeah, just explain that. Explain that, because it was very, very strange, wasn't it? Yeah.

We didn't really know what was going on. And yeah, we was in there. Justin people walked past james who is our general manager and said like i like your jacket what is it james ended up speaking to him about the brand took his i think it was his bodyguards card his bodyguards told us to bring some clothes tomorrow um to a house in cheshire where they were staying so we filled the boot we filled the boot and off we went and the rest is history we wore it boot. We filled the boot and off we went. And the rest is history. We wore it for the rest of that tour and he was pictured everywhere in it

and it got some amazing press and did really well for our sales. That's crazy. Yeah, so thanks, Adam and Drew. That's crazy. I didn't get anything out of that fucking dinner, but whatever. I didn't get anybody's card.

That's crazy. When you're thinking about the future of the brand and where you want to go, what is that place? Is there a place? Do you think that far ahead? No, we don't actually think that far ahead. We kind of stick with the next year

because we're designing a year ahead with collections. That's where we stay. I think it's good for the mindset. And I think thinking too far in advance when you're designing something that's further back than that can cause a bit of an issue

but we've got some amazing stuff coming up even for the rest of this year we've got some great collaborations coming up which is pretty cool I'm excited for those

Mike's working on Fall Winter 20 at the moment oh wow how do you know what's coming in Fall Winter 20 we don't

we don't know what's coming so you're creating it, I guess. Like we said, we just make what we want to wear. Debates within fashion at the moment. We've got a lot of fashion clients at Social Chain. Is this topic of sustainability and how the clothes we make and wear are impacting the environment? And it feels to me as someone, again, that's a bit of a fashion outsider,

that this is a very new cause for concern within the industry. Because I didn't hear this conversation happening when we started our business and we were working with brands back then. What's your take on that? And what are you doing as a brand to fall in line with that? To start off, we are a sustainable brand. We make everything in Britain that we can, which is a small carbon footprint. Everything we don't make in Britain is either in Italy or Portugal, which is, again, pretty close to us.

The second thing is we're a high-end brand in terms of the value and the quality of the product. So that in itself is sustainability. If we can sell a product that's seasonless and remains in people's wardrobes for a long period of time rather than them buying and throwing away that's decreasing landfills as well as that we're actually changing all our packaging at the moment so all the plastics are reused um recycled plastics all the cards are like recycled bamboo things like that and then we're doing a collaboration

actually at the moment for charity, which is going to come out at the end of this year. Super exciting. And let me take this in a slightly different direction. Young guys, successful business, doing well. What role has money and success played in your personal lives and in your business as a motivating factor or...

From an early age. From an early age when you're the kid that puts pictures of cars on your wall. personal lives and in your business as a motivating factor or... From an early age. From an early age when you're the kid that puts pictures of cars on your walls and that like you want to get that money to be able to get that car. And then I think you get to a stage where you're way past that and it just doesn't matter. And it's all about building a great team and enjoying the experiences that you're in and really enjoying the process and I think the money just comes along with it. You agree? I agree, yeah. I think even earlier from that it comes from just having a mum and dad with

a strong work ethic and them sort of having nicer things than other people's mum and dads and kind of instilled that in us didn't it? Yeah, when we was in primary school, my dad would take me and drop me off in a range rover and all the kids would be like whoa your dad's got a sick car and that gave me a feeling inside i was like i want to be like that dad like that's what i want to be so that kind of gave us the mindset to be able to actually work every day at our goals and try and get to that place where we're happy with what we've got and it is nice things if people say your dad's got a range over you've always had fancy things you had an advantage what do you say to them yeah you can say that but we surpassed that belief

within a couple years of the brand that everyone used to say that they'd say oh this is the parents brand or the dad's give them some a few thousand pounds to start this or whatever but when it gets to a certain level and you're in 160 stores around the world and you've got this online business that's doing x amount then yeah your dad can't really do that why do you think people say things like that um i guess to make themselves feel better i think it's a a showing of jealousy but i don't know i think it's a human nature i would agree i have the same conversation with you mark amani about um obviously he came from a yeah billionaire family and he's he encounters the same narrative but i think in the same respect his the level that he's got to you can't what can't no you can and get that from a parent. I think his dad was in the original Manchester rag trade.

He's created a company that's so, so big. It way surpasses that. So yeah, I think you just deal with it and then they get over it. And you talked a little bit about mindset there. Mental health is this massive topic at the moment. There's been a bit of a rise in awareness around the fact that we all have mental and physical health. And this has caused huge changes in the way we run businesses, the way we use social media, the way that they build the platforms. And it's kind of like a rising in consciousness around

the topic. The topic of mental health, what role does that play in your lives lives as entrepreneurs but also in the way that you sort of build the business I guess for me it's like going back to what I said about the design and that being sort of like weighing on your conscience and how that can affect like your confidence because um you can I can spend like a year on a product and we can sell four online. So there's always that worry in the back of your mind, like what if the train stops? You know, like what if you run out of ideas and things like that?

But that same sort of anxiety causes you to carry on. Yeah. And how do you deal with, you've had anxiety, I'm pretty sure everyone in this room's had anxiety. Yeah. But how have you managed that when you're doing, you're operating at such a high level, where there is a lot at stake, I guess, and you're continually going through these cycles of like launches and, you know, there's like the peaks and the troughs and the things. How do you

do that? I think it's clearing your mind, resetting yourself every single day. We both train together in the gym at night after a hard day's work. So that's kind of like our reset zone. And once that's done, like that business is done until the morning. So I think clearing your head as much as you can is great.

Eating well is great. I think it all works hand in hand your fitness your health and your brain when you look back on the journey of Represent

what's been the single hardest moment for you was there a particular day something that happened you're looking at each other I've got a few

give me one each if you can go on you go first in 2013 I found this factory in India and I'd never sent anything abroad before. And we just started doing T-shirts and I liked the way clothes were shaped and high-end brands. And I wanted to make something that was just different

to a T-shirt and hoodie that you could buy from stock and that essentially create our identity. So I looked into how to make patterns and we found a guy that could make us these patterns and create a size sets and took me like six months sent it all off to india waiting for these samples with our fingers crossed for months on end eventually something came back and it just broke my heart really i was literally lying on the kitchen floor crying my eyes out. And Mike was just sat next to me just going,

come on, it'll be alright, man. That's happened numerous times. And what went wrong there? Just everything came back wrong. It's really hard to use, especially like foreign factories and your view on something is completely different to someone else's.

And just being younger as well and people treating you a different way because of that. You know, like they can promise you one fabric, but then they might come in and off the back of someone else's order and give you another fabric. Yeah, we used to get played like that by a lot, even in British manufacturing.

That was a thing that really frustrated us because we have an eye for detail and when something comes back and it isn't how the sample is, that gets me going. I used to get very angry at that kind of thing, didn't I? Yeah. I think for mine was we were doing a runway in Milan, wasn't it? And this is also like a high and a low crushing together. Right. Because we were stood there like sort of watching the crowd pour in

and we were thinking like, oh, how have two lads from Manchester created this? Because we did the show by ourselves. And we suddenly realized that we'd got enough steamers. No, are you joking? At a fashion show, which is like horrendous. So that was the creased collection or some shit. If that's your worst memory, I don't know.

We've not had it bad. Yeah, it's a good point. If that is the worst memory, then it's not too bad. It's one of, just the one that I think of. You talked there a little bit about age playing a factor in the way that people treat you sometimes. Can you talk to me about that? A lot of people ask this question

because a lot of people think they're too young to start businesses. They're too young to try. I think most recently it's not like that anymore. I think you can go anywhere at any age and be accepted for that. Same with what you wear i remember six seven years ago when we'd go out into manchester we wouldn't get in anywhere because we wouldn't wear white shirt blue jeans and brown shoes and the bouncers would look at us and be like these guys are coming to rob the place because they're in all black that you definitely

won't get this yeah it was like this is fashion and they just couldn't accept it. So we'd go out every weekend as a group and we'd have to like split up into ones and find girls to go in with just to be able to get into clubs. It's not like that anymore. I think all over the world you can go in anywhere and wear what you want, which is great. But back in the day, yeah, especially with factories,

we'd go meet in factories and it'd be two young 20 year olds walking into a factory that was making for say it was making for McQueen and Balenciaga and they just look at us and think is this a joke but they soon realize it isn't a joke and then it's great yeah much easier being yourself anyway than being someone else and i think the brand represent and probably even the word represent kind of personifies that in a respect yeah definitely does you um we talked a little bit about sacrifice earlier and one of the things that you mentioned was relationships yeah um something i've talked about a lot in this podcast about my my personal relationships always seeming to fall by the wayside as i've built the

business because you you know, it's hard to find someone that understands what's going on up here. And even though you can tell someone something, the words don't always do justice how you're feeling. Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you there. I've never found someone that can accept how hard we work and that the business, even though you can tell them it isn't your number one priority,

and I know you've told people that before, it is your number one priority and it is your life and you wouldn't give it up for anything so that that kind of breaks that kind of thing up mike on the other hand has found found a pretty good just have to meet someone that does understand that first point um my girlfriend's american um and far away nice yeah i don't really see her too often but again that has its perks with being so hands on on the business all the time So we've got two different perspectives here so tell me how you've made that work

in terms of compromise and communication because when things get really tough one of the first things that goes is I'll shut down a little bit in communication. So how have you made that work? I mean, I kind of do the same. I kind of shut down. Whenever I have something big coming up,

I'll retreat and not sort of say much. And she'll be asking, like, oh, how are you doing? You can tell something's up or whatever. How I deal with that, I don't know. I think she accepts you for who you are and what you're doing and understands that you're on this journey i think it's hard to find someone like that she can see like the the end goal and george what problems do you have with uh everything talk to me about this i want to know quick because um we're probably

in a similar relationship before before back in the day like when Instagram first started there was this girl who was like the face of Instagram and I fucking fancied her so much

and I even put her on my Instagram as a 19 year old kid thinking like are you joking yeah this is like when no no no

not trying to get her attention then I met her in a club a few years ago and it yeah something happened and yeah it was one of those I'm not trying to get her attention. Then I met her in a club a few years ago. Break out. Something happened and yeah, it was one of those. Have you had a relationship?

Yeah, I was in a relationship with that girl for a year. Apart from that, not really. But yeah, I don't want to go in a relationship after that for a while. I like being on my own. I like being, not lonely, but I like, yeah, I just like my own space. And I like not having to communicate with people outside of work. I don't really have the energy after it. Conversely, Mike, as someone that's in a relationship, what is the upside of being in a relationship when you're an entrepreneur running a sort of high intensity business um just having someone to uh talk to after

you know like after you finish work think bounce ideas off um yeah she's she's involved with the business and oh is she yeah she's like she's really cool she's she's in fashion herself so it works for mike right She's a stylist. And is there some value in the fact that she's not fully in the business? Yeah, definitely. I assume it'd be a lot harder if she was coming to work with me and we were working in the same environment, going home in the same environment. It'd be a lot more intense. I feel like some people might look at what i have as

like a burden but i don't know for me it's it's it's kind of working pretty well as it is right now yeah because it also allows you to get your so i've got to be honest with you george here i've just kind of got into a relationship really yeah so you're on your own podcast thinking shit i've got this guy it's only guy it's only like three months or something but she lives in France so I don't see her much but when I do speak to her because she's not involved in my world as such

it does feel like a bit of a time to completely step outside of the bubble for a second and as I've got older I think I've placed a greater value on that. But she does run a business. She's starting a business, so she can still relate.

Yeah, exactly. You have something in common. She'll understand your stresses and what you actually go through. Yeah. George, who do you think is going to take you off the market? Talk to me about what this person's going to have to...

I don't know. I always go for the same look. That's the problem. They all look the market. Talk to me about what this person's going to have to... I don't know. I always go for the same look. That's the problem. They all look the same. What do they look like, Mike? Tell me. They look like what you would find in a club in Los Angeles.

Oh, really? Yeah, come on, man. No, I like... Yeah, dark hair, tanned. Yeah, that's it, really. I'm not too picky. It's just that I don't maybe it's me maybe it's me that's not good at um holding things together what makes you say that again it all just relates back to being so focused on the brand that

i don't want to lose i felt like when i was in a relationship i lost a bit of motivation and i kind of lost my way with how the collections were going. And once I came out of that and realised what had actually happened, it's not scared me, but it's kind of made me realise I'm at the forefront of this. And if I do something that isn't 100% for it,

it can have its toll on the company as well. Using that word scared again, are you not scared that you'll be, because this is one of my fears, probably still 55 years old, seven French bulldogs. I mean, I'm 26. I've got a long time ahead of me. I've got friends that are in the mid 30s that are still single and still doing what they're doing and still trying to build businesses. So I don't even think about it.

Do you want to get married someday? And have a family? I don't know. Ask me again in like seven years. What about you, Mike? Yeah, ask me again later on. Your girlfriend might be listening. You've got to be careful what you say.

She'll understand. Sorry, Alexa. later on your girlfriend might be listening you've got to be careful what you say she'll understand sorry Alexa and what's what's the what's next for Represent as a brand you talked about you know

collaborations next year and stuff but when we're thinking about the future of the brand what's the long term roadmap just

just expansion in all areas we're opening up in China over the next few months and it's just good to go to other places and realise how things are sold and different ways of actually communicating to your customer.

And I just like learning as we're going on. Like everything is a big learning process and we're at 5% of where we could be at. So it's not like the the brands in my in my eyes the brand's never going to stop growing as long as we're we're enjoying it um where does this end though for you guys so yeah the brand becomes a global brand you're making incredible stuff you're making billions what is there an end point do you know what we've been approached by investors and approached by people that want to sell the brand a few times

and it kind of knocks you a bit and makes you think like, shit, am I going to go for an exit? What do you do after that? But we've got our heads screwed on and we love the brand and I honestly couldn't see myself doing anything else. I'm going to ask you a tough question here. One of the big fashion houses shows up. They say, we're going to give you

an astronomical amount of money for the brand. George is scratching his head. They're going to give you an astronomical amount of money for the brand. When you said then that it kind of knocks you a bit, can totally relate to that feeling. I remember the day that someone made an offer for social chain and it was a it was a a big figure and i remember going home that night was actually not not that nice and sitting in my room and yeah do you know what i did i've

talked about this on the podcast before but i went on right move and looked at houses and thought yeah because i was trying to figure out what this money would do for me yeah i've done it we've done it we've been through it we've been for it for a long time. I think spending time realizing what you actually enjoy and realizing that it is your work that you enjoy and it's not actually the money, then you'll step back from that and think, I don't need to get rid of this. I don't need to move on from this. This is where my happiness is. They come in this fashion house astronomical amount of money

they offer how much are we talking oh you'd have to decide what astronomical means because i'm sure you know the numbers better than i do but um and the one sort of caveat they say is that you can no longer work in fashion as part of the the buyout um arrangement for the next 10 years what do you say astronomical amount of life-changing money, but you have to stay away from fashion. 10 years is a long time. It's a lot of money, George. I think it'd be much harder for you. I'd rather go back to them and say,

why don't you give us this amount? And we still keep the creative director brand. You said you think it'd be harder for him. Yeah, because he's just got to be doing something all the time. Yeah, he can't sit still. Can't sit still. So you'd have to weigh up whether or not... He'll learn to sit still.

Yeah. How you could occupy your time and whether or not that was worth that figure. So what are the brands that you look at and you think you really admire what they're doing well, whether it's the big, big brands from the big fashion houses or smaller brands? Could you just give me one each that you really admire what they're doing well, whether it's the big, big brands from the big fashion houses or smaller brands. Could you just give me like one each that you really respect and like?

My favourite designer is Hayder Ackerman. He's a French guy who has just the cottons that he uses and the way the product drapes. And this is actually one of his hoodies here. Right. Yeah, I just, I resonate with it amazingly and it fits my body well and we use that as an inspiration for ourselves for the quality and the attention to detail yeah mine would be Rick Owens oh yeah wearing his jeans yeah go Rick Owens just because like

he's never strayed away from that that gothic sort of look that he has. Like, it's just... And also, like, his identity is... Yeah, amazing. And what do your parents think of this and the business you started? And what did they think when you first started as well? Because my mum didn't speak to me for two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, they did speak to us, they just couldn couldn't understand it my dad can't really use the internet so he didn't understand that i was shipping clothes to america like he couldn't get his head around it even though i'd show him everything that's happened and he'd be on like google maps looking at the address going like but we only live here yeah right um so yeah at first they didn't get it and then when it started doing really well and we moved out of their house and

we had this big warehouse and all our offices and grew all this stuff they just they accepted it and they love it they love it

I mean I hear stories that they've told people about me like when I'll be in a restaurant and a guy will come over and be like yeah

it's your dad this guy he's told me all about you. He's like, what's he told you? I think it's just because he's from a motor trader background. He's just so different. Even when we got the warehouse, he pulled up and he was like, Jesus, you're never going to fill this place.

And they've always supported you? Yeah, always, yeah. And my little sister as well she's been great what's the what's been most rewarding for both of you about achieving the success that you've had rewarding um a young in in our early 20s it was like cars and watches and chains and things like that was what we'd look at on Instagram. And I've always been obsessed with Rolls Royce. I'm an actual Rolls Royce fanatic. I tell you everything about every car and the leathers and stuff. And that's kind of been in my family. My granddad was obsessed with Rolls Royce. My dad was. They used to do wedding cars with

Rolls Royces. I don't know why, but the first time I saw a Rolls Royce on the road, I was like, whoa, dad, what is that? Ands Royce on the road, I was like, whoa, dad, what is that? And he told me, and since then I was like, I need to get one of those. So like getting one of those when I was 22, I think, was like a massive,

like an amazing thing for me and I loved it. And everyone was like, why the fuck are you driving that? You're 22, you're not 60. And be like, give it a few years, everyone will be driving these.

And then they brought out the Wraith and all younger people buying them and the rappers and so that that was that was a motivator for me back in the day not anymore i think it's like making just making people proud making making your mom and dad proud and stuff like that isn't it really yeah that's what it kind of like yeah we always felt like we had something to prove because my dad had his own business he was selling minibuses and he was always teaching us like don't don't get many staff don't increase your overheads he has like three staff um in a garage and everyone thought that we'd just end up doing that because we'd go and work from on Saturdays and go and work from on Wednesday nights. I'd be cleaning the buses with a power washer and I'd be drawing on the side of the bus

because that was creative and that was the only thing I could find that was fun in it. So I guess that's it. That's what gave us the drive to be able to push ourselves and prove people wrong. Is there a lot of creativity within your family because the the way that i guess this is a question for for both of you but mike you're the creative director yeah of the brand per se where is your creative vision and you probably you know this is a really easy question to ask but not necessarily a

easy question to understand because we're all just born the way we are but do you understand where your creative vision has come from I don't know I think it might have come from my grandma she actually altered the first pair of jeans that we did and we've kept the same fit since after that right yeah she was she was a seamstress by trade oh really yeah that's the only bit of creativity in our in our family tree so maybe you come for that maybe i used to just follow mike whatever mike did in school however mike dressed and whatever mike chose for classes i'd just do the same two years later down the line because i thought it was so cool i was like constantly getting in trouble at primary school

for like doodling and like parents evening for me was just such a nightmare like i remember what this one time my mum actually she came home crying um because this teacher i won't say her name had said to her that you know it's so unfortunate for you because there's no money in art and she was just say that teacher's name. I'm joking. I might do. That's crazy. No money in art. And I knew when I was different from in the first year of primary school, they made you draw a portrait of yourself.

Yeah, with a tea towel. Sign your name and put it on a tea towel. I remember. So the whole year was on the tea towel. And this is after the first year. You couldn't even distinguish the limbs on some of them and then mine had like a fucking belt and a tie unbelievable that's crazy so how was school for both of you well how was the experience generally i know you i can tell you you weren't yeah very good in school i mean i had a big brother in there so sure, so it was good for me because I had that protection. No one liked us because we had long hair and skinny jeans

and we'd wear different shoes to everyone else. We'd be coming in in skate shoes where everyone else had the rock pots on and the baggy black trousers and we'd have skinny black jeans trying to get away with it in class. Were you wearing those because he was wearing them yeah yeah i mean we we had like sony walkmans and we'd listen to american rock music do you know what i mean like in bolton no one else no one else really did that um and then we're like on the internet at night looking at whatever

american stuff that wanting to go to los angeles Angeles and just that whole culture really inspired us, I guess, to be different. And in school, in terms of grades and qualifications, did you do anything? We were both not very literate, not great in your general studies, but obviously we excelled in graphic design and art. And did you buy into that narrative

that because your grades weren't great, like your teacher said that there's no money in art, did you buy into these narratives that because your grades weren't great or you were doing art, that that would mean you weren't going to be... Oh, yeah, especially when I was in school. If you didn't get good GCSEs, that was like... Back in the day, yeah. And would you send your kids to school knowing?

Yeah, I think school is more about the personal gains rather than the more academic gains and like how to deal with people and making friends and realising what you actually enjoy. I don't think it's about what you learn in class. You can learn more outside of the classroom than you can in the side of the classroom and i guess yeah it's a networking tool isn't it really as a child when you were when you were younger was there a you talked a little bit about that moment with the tea towel when you drew yourself as like a you know with all the the belt and stuff. Was there a moment where you started to think to yourselves,

do you know, I think I'm a little bit different from everybody else around us? I see you nodding, Mike. Yeah, probably after that moment of looking at that tea towel, I was like, yeah. I can draw, no one else can. Yeah, no. I think it's the way we looked.

The way we looked, yeah. In terms of your mindset, was there a point where you thought, do you know what, like we're... Because people always say, are you born an entrepreneur or do you become an entrepreneur or whatever? My mum used to sit on the end of my bed

every single night and say, you're going to be something, you're going to make something of yourself. I can just see it in you. And I think that was just because I was so full on with everything and I don't like to lose and I make sure was just because I was so full on with everything and I don't like to lose and I make sure I do it, I see everything through. So I always

had that in me and I always, because Mike kind of like brought me up through school and through college and I did what he did that I wanted to make something then that we could both rely on and that yeah that we could just prove people wrong yeah and like like the idea of sort of doing art on like something else like a canvas or whatever just only sort of seemed possible if you were dead you know like making money on that side of it so yeah it was all about making money as a young as as a teenager and in school because that's what our dad taught us to do um you know i know it's like a classic tale of selling sweets at school but my dad bought me a moped when i was 16

so i could go to the shop at lunch and get people's lunches for them because no one was allowed out of school um because it was quite a secluded area called rivington and you weren't allowed out on your lunch break and i thought if i if I get this motorbike, I can go out on lunch and I can buy people food and charge them more. So I'd be going out to the local pasty shop, filling this little bucket up on the back of this old Peugeot moped, flipping it out on the car park and selling it. It's making like 50 quid a day.

Oh, brilliant. Which is absolutely amazing when you're like that age. And yeah, then I got sent home. What are you scared of both of you what scares you for me contracts what do you mean contracts

I don't like reading don't like reading long things and yeah so that kind of scares me if if i ever signed something that wasn't the right thing to do but what like really scares you if you think about the future and what what could happen or you know what the things that you know they say keeps you up at night is the expression but what what really scares? Maybe losing it all,

but then we could just start it again. So it doesn't, I don't actually know what scares you. What about you, Mike? Sort of running out of ideas, maybe. Or just coming to like a mind block. Yeah, or like losing a passion for what you do. Do you hit a creative?

Wait, what scares you? That's a good question i think the only thing that i'm a little bit concerned about is that i might have the i think this is a constant thing is that i might be out of balance in some way so i might be caring too much about business and not enough about my niece and my mum and dad and then they're gonna die someday and then i'm gonna be like fuck i had this all yeah we've been through that yeah yeah um yeah that's that's definitely scary we had that with our grandad didn't we um but because you're like you're you have the same the way you talked about your obsession with this um is very similar to to how i've always felt yeah and i got to a point where i started to question that and i'm not going to name names here but i've got a very successful friend that works in fashion and we had a

conversation about um and he's he's much older than all of us but he started around the age we started and he came to me and said do you know what i i realized this year that i've only been successful in one of nine things i've been super successful in my business but everything else that mattered my relationships my family my this my that my weight my health i've just disregarded in the pursuit of this business and now i'm you know x age yeah and he said to me i've been waking up miserable every day for the last couple of years and so that has made me sort of focus on uh making sure my priorities are yeah balance is a massive. And I think your fitness and your health and what you eat is that can affect everything.

So I think if you've got that in check and you make sure you make that hour for the gym and you make sure the food you're eating is good, I think that can massively impact just the way you are with people. You talked about like a creator's block, like a creative block then. Is that something you've ever encountered?

Yeah, and you get so frustrated with it and good comes out of that as well. How do you overcome that? And when you say good comes out of that, what do you mean? You're on fire. Yeah, like when you sat there and, you know, like you sort of have like a word to yourself, like, is that good enough?

And you get frustrated with it. And then that makes you learn how to make that one thing better. And then you learn little things from that. And that just keeps going, yeah. And when you have that moment where you can't seem to come up with a new idea or a new creative concept or whatever, which a lot of people have in all areas of you know the creative disciplines what is there something that you do is there like a no it just happens so you just leave it and just yeah they just um yeah sometimes i i'll push you on to something else yeah oh we'll completely start

it again and see if we can get around it that way when it went in terms of an actual design isn't it yeah it's good because we feed each other so your mike has a great way of completing something and perfecting something but that start of it you struggle with don't you yeah having that idea and making it this thing so if I can feed him the idea he can make the thing, it works, we both know it's right I like presenting options as well and having somebody else like George

look at it and say let's just do that one it's obviously that one and I'll present three because for me when I'm designing something there's so many options of what to do it's like your perfectionism for me when I'm designing something, you can't see the difference. There's so many options of what to do. Right. It's like, I don't know.

Your perfectionism seems to bother you. Yeah. Like to the millimeter on a print width from the neck collar, it'll spend too long on that, but it is what it is. Sometimes it's good to have him to just sort of like pull you out of it

and be like, right, move on to something else. Is that a bit of a, sounds like a bit of a gift and a curse. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Probably the biggest one for me. Yeah. But you almost have to appreciate that. Clearly you wouldn't be here if you didn't have that gift and curse at the same time. Yeah, it's sort of. It's just time consuming for you, especially.

Yeah. time yeah it's sort of it's just time consuming for you especially yeah that's that's the issue with it and it's hard putting them them jobs onto other people because no one can do something like you can in your own mind so like delegating that to someone else has always been a hard task yeah you've been through a lot together i'll ask ask you individually, what does Mike mean to you, George? Everything. I literally couldn't do this without him. I wouldn't do this without him, actually. Yeah.

If Mike disappeared or popped his clogs one day, yeah, I wouldn't be able to run it. And vice versa, Mike? Yeah. Not to give an easy answer but i'd say the exact same yeah um there's no way that that we could do what we do without each other amazing so the last question that i always ask when people are on this podcast you'll know i can tell you you're probably the only people that ever might be prepared for this question. We're going to have a dinner party.

We're going to do it at your house. I don't cook, by the way. Okay. Do either of you cook? You don't really cook, do you? No. I've not got into that yet. Okay. Just because of the time.

A bit busy. We can order something though. Okay. We'll Uber Eats or delivery or something. Hashtag ad. There's a table. There's how many seats? We're going to have to add another chair.

We're going to have to have seven, yeah. You know what's coming? I might change it. Too much of your stuff. Seven seats then. There's four spare seats. Are you going to pick two people, each dead or alive, that get to sit at the table?

Tell me who they are and why go on we'll do two each Liam and Noel so they can sort it out oh god because I think if they sorted that out

that would be the biggest thing in music yeah is it always a big personal influence yeah huge massively yeah

two brothers from Manchester kind of like you guys. Yeah, made it out of nowhere and really rocked the world. So it's kind of good for us because it's like an inspiration to not do that. But like their style and the way they were and their attitude and everything is so good. Have they ever worn your stuff? No, no.

Would you want them to? Yeah, I'd love, yeah. That'd be cool, wouldn't't it Liam's sons are actually really big models right which is cool and they look like them we want to use them

in a few campaigns but if you need anyone else for campaigns just let me know I'm available I've tried to buy your stuff so many times

it's always sold out I guess I'd have to book you in there I genuinely I'm not saying this to bullshit on the podcast I've been on your website loads of times and every time I try and buy something everyone's already beat me. I guess I'd have to book you in there. Genuinely, I'm not saying this to bullshit on the podcast. I've been on your website loads of times. And every time I try and buy something,

everyone's already beat me to it because I'm maybe a little bit slower to it. But yeah, yeah. I've brought you loads of things anyway. Oh, you have? I know, yeah. Oh, amazing. I didn't know that.

My two people for the dinner table, Winston Churchill. Oh, wow, why? Amazing leader. Brought this country up in a time of despair. Absolutely loved the last film that they did about him. Don't know how true 100% of it was, but just like that scene where everyone's on the tram going into work

and they're reading a newspaper about, and actually under in his bunker, it's an absolute nightmare and they've got no chance of winning but everyone's reading his quotes that are saying that we're going to do this like i just loved that like loved that drive that he had and he smoked a lot of cigars i'd probably have a cigar with him i think he would like him as well wouldn't he probably yeah yeah and then someone fashion-oriented, probably Alexander McQueen. Oh, wow.

British designer, absolutely amazing. Went through a lot. Yeah, it'd be good to speak to him. I watched his documentary recently. It's called McQueen and I. Yeah, McQueen and I. Yeah, it really moved me in a tremendous, tremendous way because he was someone that was an unexpected face in that industry, to say the least.

Yeah, exactly. And it kind of, I guess it gives hope for every young designer in this land anyway that anyone can make it. What would these seven guests be eating? Start a main and dessert. Yeah, there you go. Didn't know that was coming, did you? No. Shocked me. And it's at our house

your house that's gonna be hard starter I don't really get starters Mike you're gonna have to do the starter just a bag of crisps crisps in a bowl and everyone's got a pint

okay some crisps in a pint yeah started off with a drink what's your a pint okay some crisps in a pint yeah started off with a drink what's your favourite food for the main when you need a main course um

have you ever had boba in LA been to LA a few times yeah yeah yeah steakhouse on sunset that's probably both of our favourite restaurants yeah

fillet steak amazing yeah definitely dessert dessert don't eat dessert do you not eat desserts nah we never get definitely dessert dessert don't eat dessert we never get you don't eat desserts you're sacrificing too much lads what what would it be though um when i was a kid i used to love um going to them like fake italian restaurants and having like

profiteroles i think even it's like sherbet or something anyway it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you to talk to you and to understand you a bit better as you say there's tremendous mystery surrounding the brand I think anyway and it is fascinating to get a closer look at what's what's made this brand so special because when i say this um i mean it like the brand does feel

really special and typically when that's the case you can there's it feels special because it's coming from a really true real place and that's like super super clear to me and evident once i've met you and anyone that is thinking about getting into the world that you're in from meeting you i think the advice i'd give them is you know as you said if it isn't true to your heart if it isn't what you breathe leave and it doesn't come from your pure inspirations then unfortunately they're going to have their ass whooped by people like you that are so driven by a crystal clear, unique, inherent, innate set of sort of inspired values. And that's what represent is all about. It's why I saw the brand and wanted to buy it immediately because it felt special.

Yeah. I think that's what it's all about. Making that consumer feel a way. Personally. Yeah. And that's a testament to you both. So thank you for coming on today. Thanks for having us. It's been amazing to chat to you and where can everyone find you?

I know just typing in represents the easiest thing to do these days but in terms of your Instagrams. In the UK you can find us in Selfridges and Harvey Nichols.

Cool. In terms of social media yeah I'm George Heaton and that's Mike underscore represents. I'm sure you're going to get loads of

messages. Thanks guys. Appreciate it. And that's Mike underscore represent. I'm sure you're going to get loads of messages. Sorry. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. you