The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - E46: Diane Modahl - Doping, Defeat and Determination

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

How would you feel if your career, the career you’ve worked at all your life, was suddenly destroyed? This is how my next guest on The Diary of a CEO felt when her whole world came tumbling down due to a fatal error. Diane is truly inspirational. Her...

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. How would you feel if the world turned against you? If you lost your hard-earned career, your reputation and everything that mattered in a second? If the world's media called you a liar, a fraud, a cheat? And if it was all because of something that you didn't even do. This is exactly what happened to Diane Medel, one of the most talented Olympic athletes this country has ever produced. Her story is heartbreaking. It's emotional.

It's unjust, powerful. It's ultimately incredibly, incredibly inspiring. But she's so much more than just an ex-Olympic athlete. She's now an entrepreneur. She's a philanthropist. And despite everything that happened to her, she's just a really good human being. You really do have to hear this. Without further ado, this is the Diary of a CEO and I'm Stephen Bartlett. I hope nobody is listening. But if if you are then please keep this to yourself my girlfriend's birthday was in July right I might have got that wrong I'm really fucking shitting myself now my girlfriend I, I'm going to go with it.

My girlfriend's birthday was in July and for her birthday, her present was a trip to Jamaica. And then a week after, I got an email through an inquiry and it said, we want you to come and speak in Jamaica. So I'm thinking, this is fucking perfect.

Because I hadn't booked it yet, right? Have you told her the story? Is she aware that you didn't actually invest Jamaica. So I'm thinking, this is fucking perfect. Because I hadn't booked it yet, right? Have you told her the story? Is she aware that you didn't actually invest in the present? She is aware that she's going to Jamaica. No, I'm joking. No, she's aware. I said to her, I said, babe, I've just had this inquiry come through to speak in Jamaica,

which is perfect. So should we go at that time? She was like, yeah, perfect. Amazing. Makes a lot of sense, right? Because she can then come and see me speak as well. She's never really seen me speak before. How do you feel about that, about her listening to you and seeing you speak live? It makes me want to make sure I do an even better job.

It doesn't make me feel nervous. It makes me really want to make sure that I'm on my game. And sometimes when I show up, I don't prepare anything until I'm there. So I don't even know what I'm going to say before I go on stage. But I've done this hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times that the minute I hit the stage, something just comes over me.

It works out for me. In this particular case, because she's there, I'll make sure I know what I'm going to say. You prepped, yeah. A little bit. My approach to that

isn't because I'm lazy. It's because that's what works for me. And I actually think I'm better when I go up there and I just give it, I speak from like passion, you know? Yeah, yeah.

That's interesting that. What about you? How do you prepare mentally for the Olympics? Yes, yeah. Well, that's years of prep in a way, but it's planted initially just from the fact that you might have a dream so in my case i was reasonably decent at running i could run i was rubbish at school i was really poor i was not academic at all and uh when everyone else was saying oh pE., do we have to go outside? It's raining. I'd be the one, changed, plimsolls on, shorts on, you know,

T-shirt on, whatever we were wearing. And I'd be doing the hockey, the high jump, the cross country. I wasn't good at all of those things. Why? Why were you out there doing that? I enjoyed it. And you thought you were good at it? No.

You didn't think you were good at it? Okay. No, I was having fun. and what did good look like at that stage because I wasn't always winning um there were lots of people you know in in school who was quicker than me could jump higher than me I couldn't hurdle I was rubbish at things like that trampolining I mean I can't even do a somersault for goodness sake sake, but I would try because it was fun. It was good fun. So that Olympic dream was born out of, in many ways, just an opportunity to have fun and do something that, yeah,

I was enjoying, I suppose. How does one prepare? Because I remember when I was younger, and this is something I've always tried to understand about myself, the higher I got playing football the more I didn't want to play and I remember one day I got scouted to play for Devon and like Plymouth Argyle and it was it was the day that I almost gave up sports and that's strange because I I'm not someone that's um intimidated by um pressure these days But when I was 14 years old and I got scouted to play for this massive team,

which is basically my county, and then had trials for England schoolboys, I didn't like football anymore. What was that about? I don't know. I've always reflected on it and thought, what was that? And I hope, and tried to make sure that that,

whatever that was, doesn't show up in my life today. Yeah. So did you just stop enjoying it that day was there an element of pressure or expectation you know what I think it it might have been for me and you never really know because you can only like I'm only hypothesizing in hindsight I think that the minute it became not just about the fun and it became this high pressure thing and I was the striker and I had these big expectations on me it just felt like work it felt like work yeah I was the opposite so the minute somebody said to me if you knuckle down

if you work hard and your work ethic surpasses anything else that your potential tells me you've got you could be pretty good at this and that that was, I suppose, the direction and focus I needed. And I remember going into arenas packed with 80,000 spectators, world championships, Olympic Games, European Championships, Commonwealth Games, and loving it. It was like I was walking into my living room. The louder the crowd got, the more pressure where I was expected to to win or do well I lapped that up I loved it I loved it I do now I can't I've never got my

head around why why I reacted in such a way so on that point how do you as an athlete show up every day because you know it's a similar sort of, I guess, dynamic or probably a similar concept to how as a business leader or as an ambitious person, anybody with a goal, in order to achieve that goal, you can't just show up at the Olympic Games. You've got to show up every day before then and you've got to have the right mindset.

And, you know, we all feel like shit some days. So how do you show up every day? Like, was there something that helped you two things the first is having a crystal clear goal and you said it there really having a defined reason a purpose uh that you and that I was driven towards and wanting to make a difference is actually the catalyst that makes the whole difference. As an athlete, a lot of us aspire to be the best in the world. That's finite. There's a ranking system. You can rank yourself against what other athletes in your distance are doing. So it allows you to measure yourself against that defined ranking, world ranking. In business,

without a goal, what are you striving for? So there's no difference whether it's to achieve a sustainable business model, whether it is to inspire a generation of young people to fulfill their own potential. The goal has to be really clear. And the second thing that I think drives me and drives the business forward is actually the value, adding value event, the next presentation, the next meeting. But actually at the heart of that is people and is a person. So unless we are able to fill ourselves up and add value to ourselves, read more, get out more, talk to people, learn and be prepared to absorb what we're hearing. You can have the best goal in the world, but it's not going to happen unless you're continually adding value to yourself. So a fairly famous entrepreneur once said to me, he gave me some advice and I wanted to get your take on this because you almost alluded to it then. He said to me, he said, Steve, make sure

along the journey you really enjoy it because it'll be over before you know it and I remember him saying that because I think at the time I was almost living in a constant state of like preparation you know preparing for something all the time and I'd been running a business for four years I'd gone through all the startup phase the business that I run now and I when he said that I realized that we hadn't really enjoyed it because you're always thinking about, as you said, then the next event. Do you regret or how? What's your thoughts when I said that about enjoying every single day? Because, you know, you do all this preparation for years before to be at this Olympic Games and then it's over like this.

How do you like be in the moment and enjoy it? It's incredibly hard um the nature of a performer somebody who is achieving or trying to achieve excellence and a culture of high performance means that you are constantly critical about how you are doing and what you are not doing and it is difficult to then celebrate where you've had success. So for example, on winning medals at championships, the first thing that athlete and coach often does is look at where you went wrong, where you lost that 10th of a second or why you didn't win gold, you ended up winning silver. Because the nature of trying to strive and be the best means you are looking for those marginal gains and that's where the attention goes so in many ways I've had to teach myself

to reflect and to stop and to look at actually how have you done and and how is it going and I've only really been able to do that as the business has reached a place where we are more stable. We haven't achieved a state of stability that we would like to, but it's inbuilt in our culture, in recognising and celebrating what we are doing.

And one of the headlines that we are striving towards as a business is to celebrate our successes and you when you look back on the high performance elements of your career do you do you have regrets about not not enjoying it more in the moment or being more in the moment that's a really really deep They're all like this on this podcast. My head goes straight away to things that I haven't been able to control. I think my way of dealing with things is I am pretty much a pragmatist. I will give you the best that I have. In fact, I won't give you the best. I'll give you all. Because the best isn't really all you can give me, is it? If I say to you, give me how many press-ups you think you can do, you'll say probably, yeah, I'll get to four.

And I'll say, I bet you can get to five. And we'll have this debate. And I'll say, okay, let's do four. Let's wait a minute. Do four more. Wait another minute. Do another four. So I want all you can give me, not just your best. So I know that on any occasion I've given all I can, 100 percent. So my regrets have come from where I've sort of lost control of the situation. And there what I'm talking about is a really difficult period in my sporting career where right at the peak of my performance, I wasn't able to achieve what I was able to because I was pulled out of a race. For a doping allegation.

Yeah. able to because I was pulled out of a race and um for a doping allegation yeah yeah you can talk about that story because I think it's super important because these are the um the uncontrollable um moments of like bullshit or suffering that one could never plan for one one had no control over that I think show up in all of our lives at some point and the the like as the saying goes we can do very little about the it's showing up but the only part we have control over is how we handle it and that's like synonymous in everyone's life i was actually looking at this um scatter graph at 3 a.m last night and it was about suffering and the nature of suffering and how it's how it's distributed and let's say there's a civilization of 100 people and there's 100 moments of suffering. They continually put them on this graph, right, randomly using this computer.

And it shows that virtually everyone has a chance of something really unfortunate happening just by random in their life if there's 100 points of suffering. In fact, suffering when it's randomized also means that some people get four points of suffering some get none and so it made me think i was looking at this graph of 100 pieces of suffering and 100 people and it randomized onto this graph and there's only like three people out of 100 that get through life with no major events of suffering you could one could arrive at the fact that 97 of us are going to go through a moment like that which is out of our control which we just have to fucking deal with, right? Yes, yes.

And so how did you deal with that? And can you tell that story? Wow, that's fascinating. I've never actually asked the question, why me? Why did this happen to me? And in many ways, you know, what you've just said almost answers that question. We don't know.

It was relatively random um in 1994 i was at the commonwealth games in victoria canada uh i was there to defend my commonwealth games title i'd won gold four years before and i was in the best shape of my life. The morning of the race arrived, beautiful morning, the kind of morning every athlete prays for. It was still, so no wind, great for breaking records. The sun was shining. And I woke up on that morning, left the Commonwealth games village to do what i would do on any typical race day and started a warm-up um run a couple of miles do some drills and some stretching and then some run-throughs where i'm testing my legs and making sure that uh the energy is there the pace and the rhythm is there oh i was so excited to get started. And on my way back into the village, I was stopped by a team official, Susan Deaves. I'd known Susan since I was 15 years old through coming through

international competition. She'd been a team official for a long, long time. Somebody I knew well and I trusted. And Susan said to me, Di, I need to have a word with you. Have you got a couple of minutes? And my natural response was, actually, I don't. I'm preparing for my race. I've got a couple of hours, and I need to go back to my room, shower, eat, and start to mentally focus and prepare. And Susan said to me, I actually do need to have a word with you. Can you come into my room? And typical athlete mode, I'm on this tunnel vision now, got to prepare, I've got a title to defend. And it wasn't until she forcibly encouraged me into her room that I realized, okay, I'll give her the minutes that she needs and then I'm off. And then she did something really bizarre, which on reflection now was so beautiful, actually. She took hold of my hands and she looked directly into my eyes and she said, Diane, a drug test you gave nine weeks ago

has tested positive. I'm stood in this room in a village and she said, I said actually to her, you've made a mistake. I need to get back to my room and prepare for my race. And it wasn't until Susan said, no, Diane, I have to pull you out. I realized it wasn't a mistake. She was talking to me and this was real. To be fair, I don't remember too much of what happened after that. I do remember waking up on the floor with Sue, this team official, looking over me, smacking my face, saying, breathe, Diane, breathe. You must breathe. And I looked up at her thinking, what's she talking about? Why is she telling me to breathe? The room then became packed with doctors and nurses. They were so concerned about my health. Apparently I had passed out. I was unconscious for some minutes. And very quickly I was sedated with Valium.

I was put on a plane with a nurse and arrived in Heathrow. And that was the day my life changed forever. And what happened from then? You land back in Heathrow and your head's full of thoughts. And, you know, I imagine an immense range of emotions. On the journey back from Canada to London, I couldn't speak. I wanted to speak. I wanted to shout out loud and say, what the heck is going on? And I just couldn't. I just could not articulate any words.

So I started to write how scared I was, how desperate I was. I was totally out of control. And when the plane landed, everyone else was allowed to leave the plane and myself and the nurse were asked to stay on. And a security guard came on and he said, look, love, there's press everywhere on the tarmac and it's not going to be easy for you. Apparently the story had broken. I was not aware of this, but on the flight home, the story had broken in the national press. And he said to me, do you want a blanket to cover your

face? And I am so relieved that despite being sedated I had the strength to turn to this official and say no I don't want to cover my face I've done nothing wrong and these plans were being hatched how are we going to get her off the plane to protect her to take care of her health and her security and they decided to take me off at the back of the plane where food is normally transported up on a little conveyor belt or a lift type thing. So myself and the nurse were ushered off at the back of the plane. And in a way, that was a mistake because we were then fortune to the media because we were at the mercy of being lowered down on this extremely slow lift and all the press were just taking as many pictures as they could. I was put in an ambulance. There was an ambulance waiting for us on the tarmac. And we arrived at a hospital in London. I stepped

out of the ambulance. The ambulance door closed. And on the other side of the door was my husband with a bunch of roses. Christ, typical man thinking that. How ridiculously beautiful at the same time. Because that just normalized the trauma I was going through. And what that said to me was, we don't know what's going on, but I love you and we're going to get through this. He didn't say that, but just seeing him and that action gave me some strength. And literally overnight, we had to become experts, scientific experts,

legal experts in trying to understand what happened to that sample. And we were able to bring on the best experts from all over the world, actually, America and London, the best barristers. And what happened to my sample after doing a race in Portugal nine weeks prior to being told I had apparently cheated was the sample was left on a windowsill at the peak of the summer in July and it had given rise to bacteria. The temperatures at the time were 72 degrees. It was on the windowsill for 48 hours. And that's all we had to go with, that the sample that I gave was no longer the same sample that was now being tested in the laboratory. But at that time, there was no evidence to back up or to prove that a degraded sample would give rise to a false positive result. So we went to the hearing in December, having been sent home in August, and told, we lost the hearing.

We lost based on, there was no evidence to back up that theory. You go away, you prove that a degraded sample can give rise to a false positive, and then we'll talk again. Of course, we appealed. So we had a number of months to go out and prove that theory. When you are innocent and truth is on your side, you will do anything to get to the truth. And that's exactly what we did. So with our experts, we took two random samples, an international tennis player and an international marathon runner. And we were able to replicate knowing what happened to my sample when it left me and ended up in the laboratory, where it traveled, how it traveled, how long it was left on the windowsill for, the temperature at that time. We replicated everything

and allowed those two random samples to degrade, to become contaminated with bacteria. And guess what happened? Both those samples tested positive for testosterone. We went back into court and we won on appeal. But in many ways, that's where the journey just started. It wasn't a victory. It wasn't one of those punch your fist in the air moments at all. By then I'd lost my livelihood, my reputation, my confidence, everything, every mile I had run, every weight I had pushed, every squat I did, I was it was a lie, didn't happen, you cheated. It was a hollow victory and sport for me was no longer a place where I felt at home. And did you stay within sport much longer than that after that moment?

Ironically, as much as I hated sport and what it had done to me, I'd been a kind advocate at that stage for almost 18 years. And this is how it treated me. The way I got through it was by running. I ran myself into the ground. To my detriment, I became poorly just running, running and pushing. And what my coach, who was also my husband at the time, realized was the only way, besides the evidence and being exonerated and cleared, the only way I would restore at least some of my reputation was to get back on track and do what I do best and start winning again. And I had four years from being sent home

to try and regain the gold medal that I should have won. In fact, I did come back. I won a bronze medal behind the Olympic champion Maria Mottola. But that bronze medal, Stephen, was worth 10 times more than the gold medal I had won and the Commonwealth Games record I had broken back in 1990 and although it was hard fought and won that bronze medal it was more than that it was in effect two fingers up to the authorities to say you know fuck you you got it wrong and when you reflect and

over that whole journey which is just this tremendous injustice how do you come out the other side not being full of resentment for that process those people that were involved you know the the lady that called you into the room to break the news to you how do you emerge from that without resentment or do you because you know when i asked you the when you started talking about the subject i could tell that you didn't want to talk about it you're right because you didn't want to go you didn't want to open that that box again and i was wondering why you didn't want to talk about it and that for me maybe says that there's the analysis that i was playing out in my head is that even though this isn't like a total like just me guessing even though everyone knows that I was playing out in my head is that even though this isn't like a total, like just me guessing, even though everyone knows that it was an injustice, there's not a person on planet Earth that doesn't.

Right. In my mind anyway. Right. It's obvious. Right. But even having to say, tell the story feels somewhat like shameful in some respect. And that was one element of it. But then the other sort of hypothesis I had was that it unlocks a bunch of negative emotions that you don't really want to unlock all the time it makes me feel sad it makes me feel sad and that is an emotion that I don't want to stay around because I remember we always have a choice I choose to be happy I choose to be ambitious I want to be happy. I choose to be ambitious. I want to be challenged. I want you to tell me how it is because I can take the truth. But that element right there, I can't control because it's an emotion that takes me to a place that should be a positive reflection on being a loyal servant to sport. And I think resentment, regret, no. But we were never, ever given the justice we deserved. We never received a full apology.

We never received compensation. And my husband and I, who was my coach at the time and also guilty by association, we never, ever fully returned to a reputation of winners. And that is what makes me feel sad. And talking about it also reminds me that the hope is dying forever, receiving the compensation that we deserved.

And hope is the last thing you ever want to lose. Have you forgiven the situation? No. Have you forgiven the people involved in the situation? No. And I never will. Really? Never.

Does it feel like you're holding onto a very heavy load that you don't load that you don't want to carry. Like, cause I remember that someone said to me one day, they said, you know, when you, when you forgive a situation, it's like letting a prisoner go,

but then realizing in some respects that you were the prisoner the whole time. And when they said that to me, I reflected on the little grudges that I have, my ex-girlfriend, all the, you know, all these little things. And I just thought,

you know what? None of, none of this is at this stage in my life serving me positively anymore because it's making me live with a certain moments, feelings of negativity. So I've always, and again, I'm just, I'm trying to understand because there's a couple of things that have happened to me. I remember one particular day driving to work and someone hacked our emails. I think it was an ex-employee emailed all of our clients as I'm driving to work, really abusive stuff from my business partner's email, pretending to be them. So I get to work that day and there's 70 people in the

office and they've all lost their clients. And the clients are calling me, telling me I'm a coward and that it was my business partner and all these horrible things. And that felt like a moment of injustice because we'd done nothing wrong. I just went to sleep. And 20 of my clients are now insulting me, telling me that I'm this and that and the other. And I think it's different to your situation. It doesn't even compare, if I'm completely honest, it doesn't compare. But at some point, I realized that I was going to lose again. I was going to take a second L, a voluntary L, if I didn't let that go. And that's the way I looked at it. I was like, I've taken the first involuntary L, right? But the second L, a voluntary L, if I didn't let that go. And that's the way I looked at it. I was

like, I've taken the first involuntary L, right? But the second L is my choice. Like the second loss is my choice. And I just, I just don't want that person to win again. I don't want that situation to win over me again. And I don't want it to win over me every day for sure. You know? I am flying. I have found my life's purpose. I know that where I am right now is where I am supposed to be. I am giving my all in this second, in this moment, on this day. What happened to me almost 25 years ago does not influence where I am headed. But emotionally, deep down, I refuse to quit and accept second best. I am worth so much more than that. But more importantly, so is my husband and my family who lived through this tragedy. So part of me feels if I say, die, box it, it's done, move on, I am quitting.

I hear that. And I'm not going to quit. If there is hope, I will continue to write letters to Seb Coe. I will continue to be brave enough to stick my head up and say to the International Athletic Federation, it was wrong that what happened to me and to us. And history is important. History is important. And until we put right what was done so terribly wrong, how can we have faith in the system moving forward? So I see it as a duty almost to continue to be the thorn in the side of the authorities.

If I never get compensation, I will accept that. I will live with that. My husband won't. He'll have a different view on it. However, it's deeper than that because this case, what happened to me, my husband and my family, never happened prior. I was the first British athlete to test positive and to overthrow the verdict. And it's important that we protect innocent athletes.

And there is no guarantee that this couldn't happen again. It's an unbelievable story and it's incredible that you had the resolve not to fold and accept it because I think a lot of people would have probably tried just to run into their shell that the thought that you could overcome such a thing I'm sure no there's no force involved in that situation that wanted you to be able to prove that there's errors in the system so that's it's it's a fascinating story and I when you said I just thought fuck me that that you know in a in a way that I think a lot of people won't appreciate it gives you a tremendous power to talk about overcoming injustice

as well and being a real as you say like a spokesman for not just that particular situation but more broadly because we know that injustice and suffering is going to fall as I said randomly on all of us at some point and it's really like the as I said the reaction piece is the bit that I think is within our control but listen changing subject the podcast sponsor which is boost by Facebook they are a dedicated one-stop shop for entrepreneurs for CEOs for small businesses job seekers and anybody with ambition that's looking to thrive in this digital economy. They launched with the aim of creating a place where all of us can understand this new world of digital and social. It can be incredibly intimidating. My

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But yeah, do let me know how you find it. A question I get asked all the time, all the time, which I think is a fundamental misconception, but I want to ask you the question and just see how you react. I'm thinking, and it's a very difficult question to answer because I don't wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to be motivated today. I'm going to motivate the team. I'm motivated because I want to be here. I love what I do. I want to challenge myself more to be better than I am. It's almost innate. I'm inspired by what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing,

and the individuals I'm around. But motivation for me is about who I am and what I want to achieve. And it comes back to what's your purpose? Why are you here? What's your why? And it's about goals. Without a goal, where are you headed? So I stay motivated by challenging myself,

by adding value to myself daily, by, you know, asking people, how am I doing? What's my experience been like with you recently? So I'm looking to fill up my own reservoir so I can be better every day. And do you ever have days where you're not motivated? I have days where I'm tired. And I have days where I think, and I have days where I think, flipping heck, why is it so difficult? Why can't that just be done? We've spoken about that or that's happened.

But I don't have days where I think I can't be bothered or I can't be bothered to get out of bed today. I want to get out of bed. Wow, have you looked outside lately? It's awesome out there. It's raining. It's raining. Yeah, I've got a couple of umbrellas. I suppose for me, much to the annoyance of people I am around,

I come from a family of people who have worked hard to achieve. You know, my mum and dad left everything behind in Jamaica, like most immigrants, to make a better life for themselves here in England. And they landed in flipping sunny Mosside, you know? So what I'm saying is just witnessing work ethic and being around individuals who want to make a better life for themselves has somehow shaped who I am. And they are my guiding principles. When I'm having a down day or a low day I just think about the hardships the difficulties that they would have had to overcome and my parents are two amazing people. Do you think there are disadvantages like tangible disadvantages or tangible obstacles

being a black woman in business? And what are those obstacles and disadvantages? Because, you know, a lot of people talk about these disadvantages. They talk about disadvantages coming from a minority background. I think there's even grants that the government have put in place to try and accelerate minorities into business. But then also there's this huge conversation around women in business and leadership roles and these kinds of things so what has your experience been about

about as as it relates to your foundation and your businesses and and your your ability to progress based on who you are I think disadvantage comes in many different guises. And I do not dispute for a second that there is subconscious or institutionalized racism that exists in business. In all of us. In all of us. Absolutely. will have a direct knock-on effect on the opportunities that are available for men, for women, for disadvantaged young people. And part of me feels and agrees with the fact that we should have positive discrimination if, over the amount of time that we have tried and failed to encourage more women into boardrooms, into strategic positions. Part of me agrees with that. But... I don't. It's weird. It's always made me feel really uncomfortable. I've never... I did a

Facebook post maybe seven years ago. Bear in mind, seven years ago, I was broke, right? So I didn't do it from my fucking crystal you know diamond tower in the sky right i did this facebook post saying when i heard about this grant for young um minorities i thought well that's racist yeah and i thought we're not trying to make a that's the racism we're trying to fight like level the playing field how do we level the playing field? I guess it's a quality of opportunity. Correct. And that's where the disadvantage sits.

So I don't think any of us, whichever marginalised group you sit in, want a hand out. What we want is a hand up. And in order to get that hand up, if society and the stereotypes and that institutionalized racism exist, you're never really going to get a hand up, not through will of trying, just through circumstance. So if one of the ways to do that, provided you can do the job, you've got the skills, your values align and the behaviours are there to be able to do the job, then I think a hand up is essential. It's essential because in my line of work, we work within the top 20% areas of deprivation, working with young people who are desperate for an opportunity to be seen and to be heard, to become the best that they can be. And we all know that Manchester is a great place

to live. It's vibrant, it's thriving. And in fact, I think it's ranked as one of the best places to live. But there are 34 wards in Manchester. 29 of them are the most deprived in the UK. We are ranked fifth worst in terms of income deprivation. So as a young person growing up in this city and you might be living in a chaotic lifestyle, let's say, where is the opportunity for you going to come from? More importantly, where are you going to find the confidence to put yourself forward in the first place to be able to access some of the opportunities? So... What's the bigger issue there, the opportunity or the self-belief?

Two go hand in hand. Okay. Because often what needs to happen is you need someone to say, I see a spark in you. If you work hard, if you listen, if you're on time when I come and knock on this door to take you to training, I can help you fulfill your potential. And those small steps then enable that individual to build and grow their confidence. But if you're at home and somebody's saying, clean your room, where's your tie? You are late today, you've got another detention.

It will slowly suffocate the potential ambition that you have in here. So you need someone to say, how are you doing? That was a brilliant assignment that you handed in. You were late, but I need to see you on time next time. So you need that sort of encouragement. And once that exists, it provides a strong platform then for a relationship to develop, for trust to grow. And then that's when the behavior change starts and the character development starts. So you need two.

You need the two things. You need someone to believe in you initially and someone to be prepared to go on this sort of twisting, winding journey as the emotions ebb and flow. And this is a lot of the work you're doing with your foundation at the moment, the Diane Medow Foundation, right? Yes. We set up for one reason and one reason only. My husband and I established the charity in 2010.

This is our 10th anniversary year. We're very excited about that. Thank you. Talent is everywhere, but opportunity is not. So the mission, our drive in terms of the foundation is to open more doors, to create more opportunities, to say to young people, nothing in life is free. If your ambition is to be the next Usain Bolt, we will go on a journey with you on that. If you want to be the next Dame Kelly Holmes, let's make that happen. Let's help you map out a plan so that you can

achieve that. If you want to be the next entrepreneur with the next new idea, let's be an enabler to fill in some of the gaps that need filling in order for that journey to happen. So our work is very much about developing character and establishing the right positive behaviour habits that will enable young people to be absolutely world-class athletes, but world-class citizens that are able to give back to society, give back to the economy and to be amazing people. You said you have kids come to you with these big ambitions, right? This might not be the easiest question to answer. So if someone comes to you, and this has happened to me, happens to be quite often, and they say, I want to be Elon Musk. I want to do you know this hugely just ambitious things right but

you can see the gap between where they are and there and this kind of goes against everything because it you know the narrative typically when you're trying to inspire people is letting them know that they can do anything and they're completely capable but you can see that their ambition is probably and this is even hard for me to say as someone that just believes I could go to the moon right yeah it's probably not realistic and I hate that word realistic yeah but I've had people come to me um one particular guy I can think of that messages me a lot on Facebook and he doesn't have the self-awareness or or any experience whatsoever and he's telling me he's

trying to raise 50 million for a backpack that just has a high visibility strip on the back of it he he's so he really is unselfaware he's never been an entrepreneur before but he messages me religiously on facebook saying i've got this high vis backpack with a high vis strip on it i'm trying to raise 50 million and he sends me this picture of a drawing he's done in that situation where you look at someone's ambition and you think how do i give because the thing is that that person has been conditioned by people like me to not give up yeah to not give up so i i remember the day i messaged him and went brett listen bro listen and he goes steve you didn't give up and I'm not going to. I'm not going to give up.

So what do you do? What do you do? I think this is a conversation that I'm actually having at the moment with my team in terms of managing expectations for some of our young people. But in many ways, it is not the goal that is important. It's not the goal. It's the person he's becoming in pursuit of that goal. So it's right that you, myself and others who get approached all the time, how do I become the next Usain Bolt, to encourage that. And it is a process and it is a journey. This trust that inevitably builds because of the communication that's

happening is really important, but it's not on your terms. If we can't fund something or if somebody isn't able to get into a competition because they're not at that level that doesn't matter we have to be honest with that and say you're not quite ready yet or I can't afford to fund that but you know keep seeking keep pushing so being truthful acting with integrity and being honest is really important. But the goal is important to have because that is what is allowing individuals to get out of bed in the morning. It might be their one thing, that purpose, despite everything else that is going on, but it's the person that the individuals are becoming

that is more important than anything else. I never won a gold medal at the olympic games but my 11 year old self wanted to it was what kept me going um and on that journey i'm now sitting in front of you having this conversation yeah i and i can you know i've i never was able to articulate it in such a way, but I completely agree. There's tremendous truth in that, that going on that journey, even when I think about my first business,

Wallpark, which I started from Moss Side, by the way, failed really badly. And I ended up leaving after about three years and they tried to carry on without me or whatever. But I learned so much from it about social media in particular and it got me really interested in social media i actually started building these social media pages that this company owns now when i was there the week before i left i actually started social chain we were sat in a small room across the street from

where we are now maybe like 200 meters away and i said to a couple of my this was maybe seven eight years ago social is only five years old so it's a couple of my friends let's think of a name for this thing with these social media pages and these these posts we do on them and we came up with the name social chain um and then for the next two years we never said the word again we never said the name again never touched it again so two years passes and I say do you know what let's um let's let's give that business a go and here we are and this is that business and it would never have happened had I not failed. And that's what I always reflect on when sometimes these entrepreneurs come to me

and it's so clear to me that the idea is so fundamentally flawed. I remember a guy telling me that Walpark was flawed, but I'm really fucking glad I didn't stop. Even though it ended in failure. Because it's 100% what took me. This is basically that business. Yes.

Right? It's just got a different face on it and a different name. Yeah. So. It's a tough one. It's a tough one. It's very tough. Because you don't want to waste their life and time.

Yeah. You want to save them from. I agree. And you're conscious of that relationship that you've built. They're looking to you to almost make that happen. I can't lie either. I can't say to them, oh, I love the backpack. I say, I hate it, it's a bad idea.

And I say that because I say it in a constructive way and I try and explain to them, 99% of the time no one's going to understand because you have to be deluded sometimes to win. Yes, I like that. And you have to be deluded, you have to believe your own bullshit to a healthy extent to get past all the cynics, the critics, the barriers,

the stats that say you're probably going to fail. So you have to have this healthy level of delusion and bullshit believing or whatever. But they very rarely listen. It usually comes two years after they'll message me, oh, by the way, the high-vis backpack, yeah, not the grey. So when you look forward, what is it that you want to accomplish in the next phase of your career?

What are the goals you've set for yourself? I'm acutely aware that I am underperforming right now. In what respect? I think with the skills and the knowledge and the drive that I have, I think there is more to achieve. Have you ever felt otherwise? Actually, yeah. I can only say that based on what I have achieved already. And so where I am now, I think, in my mind, what I'd like to do more of is use the knowledge to be able to support other businesses to shape their agenda, particularly around disadvantage, socioeconomic disadvantage, and to be able to shape some of those national governing bodies

that have the power and the influence to look at things differently. I think some of that work is already happening. But what I'm saying is that I think boards now is what is driving me to get on boards to be able to shape the agenda, but with a special or specific agenda in mind, which is about changing the landscape of how we interact with people who are coming from inner cities. I also want to be able to, I suppose I was going to say from a family point of view, just be there for my family. I always think that actually because I'm so committed to the success of the business, that balance is often difficult.

So for me, it's about deliberately being able to get the balance right from being a good family person as well as being a decent businesswoman. Have you got the balance right from being a good family person as well as being a decent businesswoman. Have you got the balance right? I'm getting there. I'm getting there. So we've got three girls and, yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

Do you believe you'll ever get there with the balance? That's a good point. Do you honestly believe you'll ever get there with the balance that's a good point do you honestly believe you'll ever get there probably not because i think at some point i'll stop being a mom and i'll start being a manager because the 12 and 13 year old at the moment need a mom and they want me home in the evening you know being there and I want to be there too but at some point they're going to say oh you know what are you doing here we don't want you around kind of thing so I suspect that that it's it's probably where it should be and how it should be right now and uh yeah we we are getting there But whether we'll get there in terms of what that total balance looks like, probably not.

And if you were to sort of, this is a slightly obscure question. And I always ask this question on this podcast. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I'd say about 35% of the time I do. Are you scared of dying? No. Why? I'm more concerned with living. Right now I'm alive and I want to give every ounce of what I have to give whilst I'm alive. I am going to die and that's going to happen but it's that element of control

and that's the part that I can't I'm not afraid of dying I don't want to be in terrible pain when that time comes but I'm more concerned with living and I'm happy to be alive there's so much more to achieve. And, you know, we talked about what does the next few years look like for me?

And that underperformance, the thing that is at the forefront of my mind is sustainability for the business. We're good at what we do in the sense of supporting young people to fulfill their potential. But my job as the CEO is all encompassing. And I take that responsibility really seriously. And that's my priority right now. And I'm really driven to be able to connect with more people, network with more individuals that will enable me to achieve my goal, which in effect will positively affect the lives of young people. If someone's listening to this now and they want to get involved in your journey and get involved in your foundation and your businesses, how can they? What's the best way for someone to do that? I know I'm getting involved to some

degree. I'd love to get involved even more. um but how could how could someone get involved and help yes well obviously get in touch uh with me my team via the the website um we are launching our ambassador program in our 10th year uh anniversary we are seeking 10 ambassadors from various elements to raise £10,000 each for us to ultimately raise £100,000 to change the lives of those young people. So we are looking for group ambassadors, so people who want to get together and do fundraising initiatives, sports ambassadors, brand ambassadors, and community ambassadors. And we're looking for 10 ambassadors in our 10th anniversary year

to raise £10,000 to help us change lives. Come on board. You will have so much fun with us. We understand that we're in the business of entertainment. Sport, as a catalyst for change, forces an emotion. Whether your team wins or loses or you get a PB or something amazing happens, you feel something. And as an organization, we understand that clearly. So our team wants to be engaged and have fun and be entertained so anybody

on our team will be having so much fun but also making a huge impact to the lives of young people across this city i'll be an ambassador yes there you go oh 10 grand we like that expensive sentence no but i know i know the cause well and I know the core as well, and I know the work you do, and I know where it comes from. So I'd love to be. I think that would be awesome. And I hope anybody listening to this might be keen to join me on that. I know a couple of people who I think could also be great ambassadors.

So, yeah, for sure. Thank you. No worries. Thank you. No worries. So last question then, a question I always ask on this podcast. Hypothetical dinner party. There's six seats.

I'm in one of them, you're in the other. You get to invite four friends, people. They don't have to be friends. You can have never met them before. Just four people, dead or alive. Who do you invite and why? And what are the names that just spring to mind? Four people. Martin Luther King. Do do you invite and why? And what are the names that just spring to mind? Four people.

Martin Luther King, do I have to say why? I mean, not to me. Not to you. Not for Martin Luther King, but I mean, maybe for other people, maybe. Yeah, but it might not be for the reasons that are obvious. I would ask the most ridiculous question, you know, what motivated him? What kept him going? Because obviously his life was at risk every single day, but he kept going.

It's the exact same reason. I always give Martin Luther King as my answer because he's someone that dawns on, he knew he was going to die. There's this particular speech he does where he says to this audience of people that like a couple of days before he gets shot dead, he says to them, I've been to the mountaintop and I don't get there with you and he points to all the audience he says you get there though and he goes I don't get there with you

and he goes but you don't need me now and then after he bursts into tears and his team like catch him and he got shot dead a couple of days later and it's the closest I've ever come to believing that maybe there is like a god or something because he knew he was going to die and he was willing to die and he was

willing to and when I think about greatness I think anybody that's willing to sacrifice their life for such a for a cause I'm like would I be willing to do that you know it's a tough question during that time I often ask myself this question would I be on the streets marching would I have been on the streets you know putting my life at risk or would I be at home watching from afar thinking you know come on you can do this can you imagine the choices people would have had to make it's incredibly difficult do you know what I say to myself I do the exact same thing I say well you know would I have been out there would I have had the courage to do what he did? The answer is almost certainly no.

But I then reflect, I say to myself, Steve, you could do that now. You could do that now. You could be in service of, you know, there's tremendous injustices in the world. There's parts of the world where people are being stoned to death because they're homosexual or this. I was like, you could fight for causes now when you're not. I agree with that. I'm not saying I'm not, but i could commit my full self in the same way he did now i agree with that and potentially the reason why we could have marched then is because the same inequalities don't exist so it didn't sure potentially in my mind i'm thinking maybe you know as you've just described when something is climate absolutely important to you you know what i mean yeah something i dwell on a lot you know oh yes and

i also i also that one of the the things that makes me feel a slight peace with that is some of the the buddhist mentors and stuff that i've spoken to talk to me about how something you described where you can't pour out anything unless you're full unless your reservoir's full and i've always i've always played with this idea of like making yourself wealthy and is that a good thing a morally good thing or whatever but um all of my mentors have told me that you know once you've created abundance within yourself you have abundance to give yes and as a 18 year old kid in Moss I used to say I remember posting my Facebook and having this conversation with myself that if I stopped wallpark now I could go and save at least

one kid's life and would that be a much greater achievement than growing a business for myself the thing that I've definitely learned to be true is because I focused on myself a little bit in that moment and got myself to this position the the the abilities that I have now to achieve that same objective have been multiplied by thousands right and that's something that I have now to achieve that same objective have been multiplied by thousands, right? And that's something that I've always contended with. The only thing that you can change or we can change is you. And ultimately, on accepting that and making a positive change, we tend to pay it forward because we remember people along the way who was with us on that experience

and um we only need to touch one life because they will pay it forward um if we are kind and generous um i would also have the rock why you need to ask dwayne dwayne well i got money the king i'm like he's a brilliant actor so I think he will be around the table you fancy him and I wouldn't well that's why I can say that because I am married okay very happily my okay I would have I'm torn between Kevin Hart and Will Smith. I think I'll go for... Kevin or Will? Will.

Nice choice. I'll go for Will. And I have one more. Do you know, I'd like to get into the mindset of Michael Johnson. Michael Johnson, interesting. So Michael Johnson, American 400-meter sprinter. I remember him. Double world, you know, multi-world record holder.

Presenter now. Yeah, but I'm not going to say Michael because the table is... No, you've said it now. Have I said it? Yeah, that's interesting. Why him out of all the athletes that you know and have worked with and have seen, why him? His mindset. It's more than sport with him.

He taps into what we all need in life, which is an attitude of, I get how life works and I'm going to play it in my favor. So I will be looking to him to steady us down because we're all a bit giddy around the table but that's bad there's me

and those and you guys it's not good it's not a good table it's going to be boring it's interesting really interesting I always find that

like the table almost reflects the person in some respects or at least the person's aspirations it's the same with

I noticed one day I bought all this art for my house I bought eight world leaders and I unboxed all the portraits and someone said to me they were like seven of them are male and six of them are black I thought oh fuck yeah shit and it's because as is the case for everybody you you have role models that you can almost see yourself becoming. And so if you were to ask, you know, I would assume that the majority of the inspiring role models for young women are also successful women. In the same way that a lot of the people that are drawn to me are young black men. Yeah. Right. I've changed my mind.

It's either Venus or Serena Williams. Oh, that's amazing yeah i'd go with them because again they've moved away from sport and they've got successful businesses outside of where you would expect to see them and their journey and their inspiration is is crazy isn't it staggering so um i've squeezed another on the table so we need to fine expand the i'll get rid of will the table settings if that's okay done listen thank you so much for coming today it's been a pleasure speaking to you and getting to know you a bit better and um i think that the work you do with the foundation is tremendous super inspiring to me and i really mean that

those aren't just words and it kind of reminds me of my obligation to to give back when you know once i've once i've run my course. No sort of pun intended there. And you're a credit to the city. You gave me an award as well. Well, your foundation on behalf of the city gave me the, inducted me into the Manchester Hall of Fame. And that was a massive, massive honour for me. I'd probably say the greatest honour I've had in my life because of, as I said to you, what the city means to me.

So I want to thank you for that as well. And thank you for your time today. It means a lot to me for you to be here. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Darren. Thanks. Bye.