The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Eric Weinstein (Ex-Harvard Physicist): The Collapse Has Already Started! Jeffrey Epstein Was A Front!

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Are We Already Living Through Societal Collapse?  Eric Weinstein sounds the alarm on AI threats, corrupt science, drone warfare, nuclear war, and deep-state secrets like Epstein. A world-renowned thinker, he asks: Are Elon Musk and the laws of physics our only escape route? Eric Weinstein is a mathematician, former Managing Director of Thiel Capital, and one of today’s most provocative intellectuals. He is also the host of the popular podcast ‘The Portal’, where he tackles controversial topics - from the failures of academia to the rise of AI, the limits of physics, and the urgent breakthroughs we need.  In this explosive interview, he explains: Why the post-World War II global order is collapsing, and what comes next. How AI and drone warfare are changing war forever. How modern life distracts us from existential threats. Why we must leave Earth if we want a future for humanity. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:03:05 Why Nobody's Talking About What Actually Matters 00:04:43 Are We Already in the Most Dangerous Era of Human History? 00:14:03 We’ve Lost Our Sense of Meaning and It's Killing Us 00:15:24 Why You're More Lost Than You Realise 00:18:29 Society Is Quietly Falling Apart… Here’s How 00:20:15 The Systems You Trust Are Failing You 00:29:38 AI Is Coming Faster Than Anyone’s Prepared For 00:30:04 This Is What Happens When Machines Outsmart Us 00:41:51 Chess Proves the Human Brain Is Already Outdated 00:43:49 What Every Young Person Needs to Know About the Future01:00:38 ADS 01:05:46 Did America Engineer the Two-State Solution? 01:17:52 Intelligence Is Broken — Who's Really in Charge? 01:26:28 Collapse Doesn’t Warn You — It Just Happens01:30:02 ADS 01:31:57 Are We Living in the Wrong Version of Reality? 02:00:17 The Dark Truth About Jeffrey Epstein 02:13:18 Why I Can’t Speak Freely on My Own Podcast 02:23:15 The One Piece of Advice That Changed My Life Follow Eric:  X - ⁠https://bit.ly/44GO7VV⁠  YouTube - ⁠https://bit.ly/3GG81bG⁠  The Diary Of A CEO: ⬜️Join DOAC circle here - ⁠https://doaccircle.com/⁠  ⬜️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - ⁠https://smarturl.it/DOACbook⁠  ⬜️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: ⁠https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt⁠  ⬜️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb⁠  ⬜️Get email updates - ⁠https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt⁠  ⬜️Follow Steven - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb⁠  Sponsors:  Linkedin Jobs - ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/doac⁠   KetoneIQ - Visit ⁠https://ketone.com/STEVEN⁠ for 30% off your subscription order Stan Store - ⁠https://stevenbartlett.stan.store/⁠  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Jeffrey Epstein was a product of at least one element of the intelligence community. I would bet money on it. The CIA, FBI. I don't know who ran him, but he knew a tremendous amount about my scientific work in ways that he wasn't supposed to. Very powerful people told me

I needed to meet him. He certainly was not a financier in any standard sense. That was a cover story. I need to know what this thing was, and I want to know why people don't investigate. I want to know why nobody asks for the filings, but I think more than anything, we don't trust our scientists, because our scientists are the most powerful people in our society. So do you think science is being controlled so that it can be used in a way that's beneficial? Let's put it this way. Eric Weinstein is a renowned mathematician. And one of the most fearless and provocative thinkers of our time. He dissects the failures of science.

Exposes elite networks and proposes bold new theories that could save humanity. So top of mind for me at the moment is the apocalypse and tropical fruit. The years of science exposes elite networks and proposes bold new theories that could save humanity. So top of mind for me at the moment is the apocalypse and tropical fruit. I'm not kidding. You're looking at the end, man. Do you really think this is the start of the end? Of course it is. Look at how much has happened in the last month. And the big problem is that we share one atmosphere. All of humanity's eggs are in one basket.

So what needs to happen to get me a future? So I think Elon is 100% right. You gotta get to another sphere. But he's being a complete b***h when it comes to science and he's being a total hero when it comes to engineering. But you can't engineer your way to the stars with the science we have. But physics opens the universe too. But we have a real problem.

A new idea in physics changes the balance of power in the world. The desire of our government is to get the science to give us as much power as possible. But then they castrate the scientists, belittle them, destroy their families, their lives, their ability to earn, because our government isn't good enough to keep its own secrets. My employer was a special informant to the FBI. There's a doctrine that says physicists don't have free speech. They're stopping the world's most important group from making progress. Physics is the only thing that's going to get your future. So let's talk about that. Quick one before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two

things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power

to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. Eric, you are a particularly captivating individual

for the very fact that you grace so many different intellectual subjects. As we sit here now having this conversation, I want to know what subjects at this moment in time are occupying most of your thoughts and most of your thinking. We have a strong listenership here, and I think the responsibility that I have meeting someone like you is to understand what we should be talking about. So top of mind for me at the moment is tropical fruit and physics. I'm not kidding. Tropical fruit and physics?

Yeah, yeah. But that's just because you're catching me on a particular day. Okay. Tropical fruit and physics. Yeah. Yeah, but that's just because you're catching me on a particular day. Okay, and my local 99 ranch market ran out of rambutan, which I'm addicted to No, I have serious issues with tropical fruit. I'm completely obsessed by what about this week What's been occupying most of your thoughts this week? Well the apocalypse and physics Why'd you say the apocalypse? the apocalypse and physics. Why don't you say the apocalypse? What do you mean by the apocalypse?

Well, we're becoming a nerd to the apocalypse. We just watched hypersonic missiles slam into a modern city on TV and we're watching one of the world's most remarkable civilizations, the Persians, take direct hits from both Israel and the U.S. and I'm just beside myself. I mean, this is incredibly dramatic. If you think about, you know, just the idea of the Jews and the Persians are both still here. And one of the things that I find really just painful is that I care about certain cultures

that I know well more than others. And these are two of my absolute favorites. What's going on at this moment in time? Because it feels like there's more conflict than there's ever been. I don't know whether that's just a bias that I have in this moment, but whether I'm looking at the wrong social media algorithm, but it feels like the world is tense. Well, you're too young for the Cold War. So I don't know how old you are.

32. Yeah. So you really missed... I grew up in a different world where things were tense because there were two players and it was, it was more or less the u.s and the soviets And then we decided one of the dumbest things we ever came up with a very smart man came up with the dumbest one of the dumbest ideas, which was the end of history and You know the post-world war two order Is here to stop us from using the technologies that came out of this. And I talk about this a lot.

There was a six-month period between November of 52 and April of 53 where we unlocked first the power of the nucleus because we could fuse hydrogen. And the other thing we were able to do was figure out the three-dimensional structure of nucleic acid in the form of the double helix. And suddenly, in no time flat, we had access to the two most powerful levers humanity has ever had, or perhaps ever will. And so we're just not in a position to deal with this. And the remarkable thing... What does that mean, sorry, in terms of, you said we had access to the two most remarkable things? Well, the hydrogen bomb is not something that has ever been used by anyone against an enemy. This is the first full-scale test of a hydrogen device. If the reaction goes, we're in the thermonuclear era.

Three, two, one. So we're awaiting its first use in war. We did use fission devices, but we didn't use fusion devices. And they're at completely different scales. So the Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the only two situations in which a nuke has ever been used against a population, civilian or otherwise. And we don't know, for example, whether or not, I don't know,

at least COVID had its origins in a bioweapons program. So at some level, we're playing with levers and tools that are so powerful. We do realize that the key ingredient that made COVID so unique was a four amino acid sequence inserted into spike protein. So that's 12 nucleotides coding for four amino acids shut down planet Earth for a couple of years. That's how powerful this is. And there are very few things that have this kind of leverage. In 2017, we had a discovery, a white paper called Attention is All You Need.

And oddly, many of us dealing with AI and LLMs and talking that language don't even realize there's a paper that you can read that changed everything. It's eight authors out of Google, I think, and that opened up AI. Satoshi in 2008, 2009 with the solution to the distributed double spend problem where you could effectively port conservation laws from the physical world into the digital world, giving us digital gold. But just as a beginning, these ideas that have such high leverage are making us powerful

beyond any previous world with no attendant increase in our wisdom and our ability to use and wield these things and right now you're seeing the face where we're unveiling what is drone warfare look like in FPV what is FPV first person we you know where you're looking through the lens of the drone as it slams into a personnel carrier you know maybe you maybe you've seen this on telegram where you're just looking through the lens of the drone as it slams into a personnel carrier. You know, maybe you've seen this on Telegram where you're just watching individuals being menaced

by mechanical flying birds equipped to kill them. So we didn't know what drone warfare looked like. This is the beginning of drone warfare. We didn't know what hypersonic missiles look like when they slam into a population center. I was just in Tel Aviv a couple months ago. And I was in shelters because the Houthis and some of the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza were letting off missiles. But not like this.

Persians really, you know, and by the way, they're choosing, I think, to not inflict maximal damage. I don't think that they could have gotten the body count a lot higher if they'd wanted to. They're trying to speak the language of violence in a very measured fashion. So is this a particularly tense moment or is it just the bias that I have because I've not been through these things before? Is there something different?

No, you're looking... I can't even believe the question. You're looking at the end, man. This is the beginning. This is a slow rollout of a completely different world. You've been in... We've all been in a completely artificially stagnant bubble for decades.

My entire life up until now has been in a bubble. The only people who have seen real life are extremely old. Who are those people that have seen real life? Well, I would say people who went through the Depression, World War II. In China, people who went through Mao's Great Leap Forward. But most of us have no idea of what a real pandemic, like a Spanish flu or a Black Plague is like.

We don't know what Poland went through, where they lost 20%, 25% of their population to war. Look at the statistics on the Battle of Stalingrad. We don't really understand. We've just, our whole life has been in a bubble. You said I'm looking at the end. Yeah. Remember all the talk about the singularity, like Ray Kurzweil, we're heading to the singularity. What is the singularity going to be like, you're in it. This is now.

You're looking at the disintegration of NATO. You're looking at people who don't know how to maintain the systems that were engineered by their great grandparents after World War II. That order, that you're from the UK. If you think about how the UK woke up to the idea that they had built into their heads that we are the masters of the world. So you saw the beginning of the end of this concept of the British Empire. That moment is coming for the US.

It may be that it's coming for Israel or it may be that it's coming for Iran. In 1967, the Israelis felt invincible in the Six-Day War. Then in 1973, they had the Yom Kippur War. All the people that they were priding themselves having beaten, these ferocious enemies that were arrayed against them, woke up on Yom Kippur in 1973 and bloodied the Israelis and they surprised them. So the Israelis underestimated their enemy and that changed the entire character of the country. It went from being a triumphal state that felt that David could defeat Goliath to realizing

that Goliath was quite powerful and You know the same thing is going to happen here. You saw the celebration that Trump You know had dealt this blow to the Iranian nuclear facilities. You watch the Persians come back. It's gonna We're starting to realize what the boundaries are as people are more bold in trying things Maybe she's gonna try to cross the Taiwan Strait. I don't know. But the era of stasis, where very little happened over very long periods of time, is over. So you think this is the start of escalation?

This is the start of the undoing of the post-World War II order. The idea that the post-World War II order is still in place is astounding. So what happens next? We either scare the crap out of ourselves and come to our senses or we don't. We scare the crap out of ourselves and come to our senses? Or we don't. Hmm. And what does that look like, scaring the crap out of ourselves? Well, I don't know. How did you feel about the hypersonic missiles?

Like, we started this and I'm talking about tropical fruit. Because I'm trying to figure out whether I should buy a jackfruit and stink up my wife's kitchen. You know and on the other hand I just saw hypersonic missiles slam into the buildings I was just in for meetings in Tel Aviv. There's a nuclear threat that weirdly hangs over us and I almost feel at some deep level we all understand and feel that threat, that there's these nine or 10 countries around the world

that have the ability to basically wipe out all of us at any moment. I feel like that's almost within us all. That knowing is within us all. I totally disagree. Really? Yeah, I think about nothing else sometimes and I still don't believe it.

I don't believe it. There's a difference between knowing something in your head and knowing something embodied. Yeah. I don't believe it. There's a difference between knowing something in your head and knowing something embodied. Yeah. I don't know if we were able to distinguish whether we know it in our head or whether it's embodied unconsciously to the point that it's changing how we act.

Do you know what I mean? Because I'm now aware that there's nine countries. And I'm also aware of that really it's one individual's decision as to whether those nuclear bombs were to fly. So there's a part of me that's, I don't know, maybe in suspended disbelief or at a deeper level feels an angst. But nobody knows what to do with it. And this is part of what Elon is all about, which is that I am convinced that

everybody else needs to be talking about this much more and I need to be talking about this much less. I talk about this all the time. You know, people are always, I want to survive more than anything else. There's so many things that I love about this place. And I don't like the idea that we're all trapped here with one atmosphere, with nine individuals, if you like, who could all wake up on the wrong side of the bed and say,

ah, today's the day. Part of what I'm so exercised about with respect to the apocalypse is how many things I want to save. I mean, this city just went up in flames. It's very, it focuses the mind, how many things can I save in one carload if I know that the police are not going to let me come back to my home? Do you save photos? Do you save musical instruments? Do you save financial records? What is it that you save?

You know, it was a very focusing question. We're already over it. We can't even remember the fires. On that point of the things that give us meaning in our lives, where do you think we're at as a society in terms of our feelings of meaning and purpose and connectedness to maybe something transcendent or... I was mulling over this idea the other day. I actually posted it on my LinkedIn page of all places. I said that I think we need to ladder up to things to feel like anchored and content in

life. We start with ourselves and we ladder up to family, then community, then maybe a mission or a purpose, and then maybe to something transcendent. And it feels like because of the design of our lives and the optimization of it, we're increasingly laddering up to just ourselves. Yeah. I think even in my life, I'm wondering whether there's like a layer missing, like, which is the religious layer or a spiritual layer. Do you pray? Hmm. layer or a spiritual layer.

Do you pray? Hmm, it's a good question. You come over Friday night and pray with us. I'd say I do pray. That's pretty weak. But it's not a, it's not the way that I see prayer on in movies and stuff. So that's the thing, right? We have this idea that somebody puts their hands together and they just believe.

Yeah. But a lot of time when you're praying, you don't really believe. You're not sure that you're doing anything sensible. You feel ridiculous. And that's true even if you're a believer. Do you think we need religion? Yeah, said the atheist. Are you an atheist?

Yeah. But I take religion super seriously. I don't think we're meant to live without it. That's an interesting conundrum. I don't think so. Everybody gets hung up on it. I sort of wonder what their problem is. Please explain. So you believe that we aren't meant to live without religion. We're meant to be orientated by something transcendent, but you don't believe that it's real. I think that, you know, there's this great trick that I learned

when I was scuba diving, which is that your need to breathe is triggered by the buildup of CO2 in your lungs. And there are all sorts of things you can do to decrease your need to breathe. One is you can hyperventilate, and you can get rid ofup of CO2 in your lungs. And there are all sorts of things you can do to decrease your need to breathe. One is you can hyperventilate, and you can get rid of all the CO2 that's residual. You can also inner your lungs to CO2 by smoking.

You can also breathe out the precious air that your instincts tell you to hold in. You can do all these things, and then you can go super deep. You can learn how to equalize the pressure in your ears by holding your nose in these techniques. And suddenly, you're far deeper than you've ever been. And you're exploring the rocks and the fishes,

and there's a turtle and there's an eel. And you get a message, you're out of air. And you look up and you see, I am really far from the surface. This is terrifying. That's what happens when you unhook the proximate, which is air hunger, from the ultimate, which is the need to breathe. So thirst is proximate to dehydration.

Hunger is proximate to the need for nourishment. In part, religion and prayer is there to keep us from unhooking all of these protective things and just turning life into a hoot. You can have a hoot without religion, but if everybody has a hoot, the whole society collapses. At some point, I think, a president of the United States may have said that people who defend this country were suckers, something like that. I thought, God damn you. Maybe it's true even.

But how many families have received a flag draped coffin and felt pride. Like we lost something precious, but we are part of the American tapestry in a way that few families can be. And when we outsmart ourselves, when we unhook all of these things, every single young woman has an idea about what the opportunity cost

of not going on OnlyFans is. Before we didn't know what the opportunity cost, there was no measurement of it. We're becoming too sophisticated, we've got too much information, we're deranging ourselves, we're having a blast, and we're completely undoing all of the superstructure of the world. The number of people who don't have children or want children, or my kids make fun of me, I just go around telling people to make babies. And it's the most normal thing in the world. I meet parents who don't harass their own children to get married and have families.

Like, what are you doing? The superstructures of the world? Yeah. One being family? Yeah. Traditions. Yeah. Things that ground, that connect you to...

And what are the symptoms of that unhooking from the superstructures of the world? How much do you care about things... How much do you care about people saying your name four generations out? Me? Yeah, you. You're probably asking the wrong person, because I just don't think legacy matters, because I'm going to be dead. That's right. But you're... I'm asking all of you who believe that. Yeah.

That it's so sad. It's so weird that no one cares about their legacy because they don't see a future. So what I'm trying to say is, I'm desperate to get you a future so that you care. What needs to happen to get me a future? Something remarkable. Something utterly remarkable because it's not because it's not going that way. And that's what the physics part is.

I talk about physics constantly. Physics is the only thing that's going to get you a future. How? Well, right now the big problem is that we share one atmosphere. So everything that can... all the really bad things, whether it's pathogens, like imagine something COVID-like but far worse, or climate, or radiation, all of these things don't know anything about borders. To an extent, there's a southern and a northern hemisphere that are separate, but even that's not a great border.

So we can draw all the borders on land that we want, but we still have basically one or two atmospheres, and I would really say one. And we've now gotten powerful enough to really screw it up. Right? Through nukes or through carbon emissions? All three of those things. Right? Everything that you care about is on one sphere with one atmosphere.

And I think Elon is 100% right. We've got to get to another sphere. I can't believe that he's focused on Mars. I mean, sure, focus on the moon, focus on Mars, focus on chemical rockets. But throw a couple billion towards physics for God's sake. So let us get serious about exploring the cosmos. This is our womb.

This is not our home. You know that song Closing Time? No, I don't. Closing Time. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. I think it's about birth. Yeah, it's time to be born. You can't stay here.

This is completely obvious to me, and I am the only person who talks this way. And so I sound like a lunatic, and I get tired of it. But the real reason, it's about the mangoes, it's about the rambutan, it's about the music. It's about all the things that I love. So why would you want to leave? I want to take it with us and I want to see what else is out there

and I want to meet people. Why don't you just stay here and fix this planet? Because you can't. The odds of fixing one sphere for a permanent future, you've already talked about it. You don't care about the future. I don't care about my legacy because I'm not going to necessarily be here.

I'm just so focused on making the life that I have. You're such a narcissist. Is that what it makes you? Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. I care about my, I don't have children yet either, so I don't, yeah, I don't have that.

But I, my children don't have children, and their children don't have children, and I care about them, and they're not even here. We've got some time left here, though, no? Well, we did. If you looked what's happened in the last month, it's coming undone. Pakistan and India. Do you really think this is the start of the end?

I have no idea where I am. Of course it is. The World War II order was keeping... It's like control rods keeping the world from going super critical. Can't we just put the rods back together? Have you looked at who, we had an election with Donald Trump versus Kamala Harris in the US.

Tell me what's going on in the UK. What are we doing in the mayoral race for New York? I don't know if you're watching what I'm watching. Look at the mess that's going on in Gaza. Russia is nuclear. Israel is presumably nuclear. Pakistan and India are nuclear. The US is nuclear.

Iran is almost nuclear. China is pissed off about Iran because it was trying to make a play through the region. North Korea is watching. Oh, and look at the UK in turmoil. UK is a very nuclear country, to say nothing of France. This is not going to go well. We just, by the way, look at how much is happening with AI. Right?

Everything was really stagnant. So I have this famous challenge that I give people, which is go into a room and subtract the screens and forget about style. How do you know you're not in 1973? Like drones are the beginning. Imagine I needed a refill on my coffee and you did something and a drone brought me a coffee to not interrupt the flow. We know we weren't in 73, but in general drones aren't a big part of our lives. These robots, I've never seen a human-eyed robot actually doing anything other than on YouTube, where it's like doing the mashed potato.

So in general, yeah, things were just really stagnant for a really long time. And during that period of stagnation, we had this crazy narrative, which is like, the dizzying pace of change is making it almost impossible to keep up while things were incredibly stagnant. And so it just shows you sort of this weird way in which

our minds can be programmed to completely ignore what we're experiencing. Is there not a chance that we'll just continue to? OK, if you want to go with chance, look, until you're worried about your great, great grandchildren, I don't want to have this conversation with you. I want you to start caring about that. I want you to go to church.

You're heir to a great tradition. One of the most important traditions in the world has to be Christianity, because both Judaism and Islam are screwed up over the law. We're legal traditions. Christianity, not so much. I think I first time somebody crystallized that for me was Sam Harris. It's a really important point. But you're heir to an incredibly powerful and important tradition. And if we don't have a Christian substrate, we're in real trouble because all of our society is based on an assumption of a Christian substrate.

You're advising me to be Christian in tradition but not necessarily in belief. Well, this is the thing. You're alienated because you think that you have to be a believer in order to go in, otherwise you're faking it. Yeah. Get over yourself. That's not how it works. That's true. That's me just being honest. I do think that if I went to a church, and I sung, and I prayed and stuff, and I didn't believe, I would be like, it'd be fake. OK. Do you imagine that all those people who go to church

are just sitting there 100% sure that there's a Jesus to pray to? Do you know any Christians? Yeah. Yeah. They any Christians? Yeah. Yeah. They're not like that. They sneak off and do bad things. If they were confident that Jesus was watching everything that they were doing, and they were constantly talking about how they sin, I'm a sinner.

It's a very complicated, interesting piece of kit. My claim is that I said the Lord's Prayer as part of going to high school. I sat in a church, a chapel, a high school in LA that had a stained glass window with an American soldier trampling a Nazi flag into the stained glass window. It was amazing. How does this link to me? I was about to say, can't, don't you have faith that we'll just be able to kind of keep this, it feels like a bit of a standoff. So you're the one with the faith.

I'm the one who's nervous. You, look, you're the one with the faith. I'm the one who's nervous. Look, you're the believer. I'm not going to trust that. No, I'm going to get my hands dirty and try to do something about it. Do you know what I think it imparts because, as you said, I've been alive for 32 years and through that time has been relative peace, especially in the Western world. So it's all I've ever known. So I'm born with this assumption that this is just kind of how it goes. There's always threat, but we kind of figure it out. Come to the Pacific Palisades.

It looks like Gaza. Yeah. Yeah, I've got some friends that lost their houses there. Checked out Lahina in West Maui recently. No. It's an absolute disaster. Is AI a protagonist in this story? Is it?

Sure. In what respect? Well, what do you think about it? We're going through a wild revolution at the moment, and I just hear people saying the dumbest things about it. What do I think about it? I'm scared I might say something dumb now. Well, let's try it, because I'm going to say something dumb.

I think when I look at both sides of the coin, and I look at the opportunity and the threat, my concern when I hear about the CEOs of the biggest AI companies in the world talking about this fast takeoff is that the transition will be too quick for us to adjust. And when they say fast takeoff, they mean that AGI arrives, and the rate of its learning accelerates so quickly that it really disrupts the need for human beings to do a lot of the sort of jobs

we're doing today that are centered on intelligence. Which jobs require intelligence? Pretty much all of them these days because we've had the Industrial Revolution where we've outsourced a lot of labor to machines but... I don't think so. Really? Yeah, I think a large portion of our conversation was actually an LLM. We didn't actually get to the stuff outside of the LLM.

You and I are two chatbots for the most part. You're a good one. Thank you. I'm on a huge platform again, you know. But my claim is that that's the really disturbing part. More or less, we're LLMs. More or less, we don't do a single intelligent thing all day long. And the reason that they're able to mimic us is because we don't realize that intelligence is a last resort for us.

We try to automate. Like, you know, if you think about greetings, your assistant was very kind. I got out of a black car that you guys sent around, and I was greeted with the phrase, there he is, the man, the myth, and I knew what was coming next, the legend. Right? Because that is a sort of humorous way of giving an intimate greeting.

But it's still an LLM. And I'm not saying that your assistant is an LLM. I'm saying that more or less what we do all day long is LLM interactions. Hey, buddy, how are you? Good, good. Things have been really busy. How about you? Well, I got some travel coming up.

Kind of excited about it, but I have to get through some work first. I understand. That's an entirely scripted conversation. That's why I'm trying to say that I want to do podcasting that is outside of the LLM model. I don't want to do just dangerous, stupid stuff, but I want to talk about things that I've never explored, where I don't have something, you have something ready. Do you think AI will ever break out of the LLM, or will it expand? I don't think the LLMs will. See, I think that waiting for AGI as the problem is a bad idea. I think the problems are going to get here far before AGI.

I think even that, the AGI expectation, is something we're trained to do. Do you think AGI is coming? Do you think we'll survive AGI? Will AGI be good or bad? All of that's pre-programmed, isn't it? Why are you waiting for AGI? Did you not alpha fold three?

Did you track that? Do you know about this? Was that the chess game? Well, it's the chess game that became the protein folding game. You want to talk about great games, protein folding. Now that's a game. I have no knowledge of this at all. Okay.

What do you know about proteins? Very little. Okay. Think about proteins as tiny machines. Yeah. There's a copying machine, there's a scissors and a shearing machine, there's a light making machine, all sorts of things. And all of those machines are weirdly coded.

Imagine that you had like a children's show and a bunch of girl superheroes and they all had necklaces with 20 different kinds of beads around their neck. And so when they needed a machine, they'd take off the necklace, they'd throw it into a thing called a ribosome. The ribosome would take these 20 kinds of pearls

and suddenly it would build you a car, or a spaceship, or a gun, or who knows what. Well, that's the story of DNA, RNA, and protein. The only thing is, isn't it weird that a linear sequence suddenly crumples up into a three-dimensional object that does something? So for example, have you ever seen these Turkish rabbits that glow in the dark?

No. OK, so they took green fluorescent protein out of jellyfish. Yeah. And they spliced them into the nucleic acids of rabbits. And the Turks bred all of these glow-in-the-dark bunnies. And what that is, is a structure, so there's something called secondary structure in protein, where sometimes you get these spirals called alpha helices, and then sometimes you get a two-dimensional sheet that's made from taking a

switchback in strings of amino acids. And then if you wrap that around, you don't have a beta sheet, you have a beta barrel. And these beta barrels are the glow-in-the-dark aspect of green fluorescent protein, okay? And what we didn't know was how a series of ACTs and Gs could code for sequences of amino acids could form three-dimensional structures. So if you just read DNA, you didn't know, well, that's going to be a sports car. Yeah. Alpha Fold figured it out for the most part, like to an enormous extent. Humans were stuck there.

And what does that mean? It means that you could, I don't know, you could target your enemies that have particular regions on their cell surfaces, and you could come up with proteins that only attach to them and attack. It could mean anything. It could mean nanorobots.

I don't know what it means, but my point is that that's already here. And you're not focused on it. And you're thinking AGI. And the funny part is, is that's your LLM that got programmed to wait for AGI. Well, I heard, you know, people that I think are very smart, much smarter than me talk about the- Don't listen to them. Elon?

Sure. I mean, he says that it's our biggest existential threat is AI. Elon has become the outsourcing for much of our intelligence. And if Elon means anything to you, he's really saying to you, don't listen to me, do something remarkable. He's saying, where is everybody? Why is there only one Elon? There used to be lots of them.

Why is there only one Elon? Yeah, not the right question. Where did all the other Elons go? Same question, is it not? No, I think that the why is there only one Elon makes Elon feel more singular? You know, if you ever get a chance to go to Cappadocia or Bryce National Park in Utah, you see what happens, which is that you'll have a stone that was resting on the soil. And suddenly the wind starts to erode everything except the compactified soil right under that stone, and you get what's called a fairy chimney or a hood.

And so the claim is, is that sometimes you get these isolated structures and the key point is everything else eroded away. We're supposed to have tons of Elon. And everybody else got taken out. What or who took them out? Look at how much trouble Elon has being Elon. Look, we keep hearing about him, you know, he's on drugs. Great, take drugs.

No, I'm not kidding. Do you know how many amazing people take drugs? If you care about jazz, jazz is a whole, it's a history of drugs. Whenever I'm listening to Ray Charles, I'm hearing heroin. Okay, what are they doing at Burning Man? They're trying to live luxuriously under oppression, simultaneously luxuriously and as dirty and disgusting

as you'll ever be. Hopefully they're having tons of eye-opening, mind-bending experiences chasing some way of getting out of the LLM. And, you know, my feeling about this is it's not even honest. I believe that Elon, for example, does understand that population and growth is really important. But I also think he just enjoys making babies. And in a weird way, this idea of, I'm going to have an empire of my children is a forbidden concept.

Try explaining that to HR. You know, it's like, what did you say at work? So the key point is Elon is barely able to be Elon. Do you think we're overestimating the impact AI is going to have? Because a lot of people see this as really fundamentally transformative. No.

You don't think we're underestimating it? I think it's going to be. I think that what AI means to us is bizarre. We've come up with this whole script about AGI. And it's going to take... Everything we do that's repetitive is on the chopping block. And since almost everything we do is repetitive, we don't need to get to AGI.

We just need to do things where lots of people create lots of repetitive data, and then we tokenize it, and we train the AI on the tokens. And then for the most part, it says, you know, it doesn't matter. It can be a photograph, it can be music, whatever it is. Amino acids, just give me a large enough data set and let me add it and, you know, take a hike for a little while. I'll train on it and then I'll know how to do that. You know what it's bad at?

Things that where there isn't much data. So I just found out about these orphan proteins where, like, everybody's got a different version of hemoglobin. But, you know, the quaternary structure of hemoglobin is these four heme groups, you know, four different proteins around a central element. What happens when you have a protein that has no analog anywhere else? The system doesn't have the ability to learn it. If I train you on the blues and you find out what a 12-bar blues progression is, then you find out that there's a variation where the second bar goes to the fourth rather than just staying on the one for four bars.

And then sometimes the fourth bar has a seven in it to create tension. Okay, so it's going to learn every single form of the blues like that. And because there's a large corpus of that stuff, it's going to get really good at blues music. You know? But if you take something that basically never happens, it's not going to have an easy ability to train and give you more.

So I think that AI is almost certainly going to transform the economy because everything that we know how to do through education creates repetitive behaviors. We don't know how to educate for creativity and genius. We know how to educate for doing higher level things. So radiology is a great example. Radiologists are, you know, some of the first in the crosshairs. I'm going to stare at some imaging,

and I'm going to say, I think that's a tumor. I think that's benign. And it's going to say, just give me all of these tokens. Like, well, they're x-rays. They're CAT scans. No, no, they're just tokens. So yeah, it's going to start to automate away every repetitive behavior. And then what's going to be left is

The tiny number of things that aren't really highly repetitive or things where we really care that a human does it very interesting What's happened with chess? I? Don't know if you've been following chess I Loosely understand it mainly because I've spoken to a lot of AI experts and they often reference chess I can loosely understand it, mainly because I've spoken to a lot of AI experts and they often reference chess as an example where... It's one of the first things that humans did that we really cared about that fell. So they've been longer in the AI tractor beam than any of the rest of us in some sense. How did it fall?

Through Deep Blue and IBM and Gary Kasparov. But does that mean that people aren't interested in chess anymore? What are you saying? No, no, no. That's the whole point. So, Magnus Carlsen, the greatest chess player of our time and perhaps of all time, was on Joe Rogan, and Joe asked him the simple question, can your phone beat you? He's like, yeah, easily.

So the point is we can't compete with, I don't know, Stockfish or whatever the top chess programs are. I don't know anymore. But nobody cares about those programs except for AI experts. We care about the drama of Anand versus Carlson. Two humans. Two humans, because it's about us. We're very narcissistic in this way. And so there was a period, and this is something that my wife tried to popularize.

So she said this thing about the golden age of AI complementarity, where the AIs aren't good enough to take over from us, but they're amazing tools. So there's a period where we're teamed up in the prompt engineering revolution. They're not good enough to come up with their own prompts. A great example of this that she and I have been talking about is the cyborg chess era, which is a period where humans and the AIs could form teams that would do better. But at some point, the AI just looks at the human and says, you're just holding me back. You've got two children.

Yeah. And when they're thinking about their career prospects, with all that you think and know and believe about the future that we're heading towards, what kind of career advice would you be giving to them? Oh, I've given them terrible career advice. I gave them somewhat different career advice. So to my son, my advice was do the hardest, most technical thing you possibly can do and be prepared to use that ability,

that facility in different ways than you're honing it. But train yourself. My daughter, I think she cares deeply about people. And, you know, there's a typical male-female divide. And I'm not, by the way, I'm not going to talk overly much about them because I try to keep them out. But she is somebody who is taking the same level of analytic ability but putting it in the service of the law and trying to help people who are really unfortunate. She's very idealistic.

And so at some level, the law is not going to allow us to have AI lawyers for quite some time. It's not going to trust anything. We've got jury trials and judges and a legal system that's written into our founding documents. To the average person, I would say get your board in the water and prepare to paddle like all get out. The tsunami of a lifetime is coming and nothing your elders have seen is gonna prepare. There's no good advice to give that's specific.

Let's put it this way, one of the things when people tell me about their moving from one city to another, I have a phrase that nobody likes which is every place is over. Oh, I'm moving to Austin, yeah, it's over. Miami, which is, every place is over. Oh, I'm moving to Austin. Yeah, it's over. Miami, it's over. Nashville, over.

You know, all these places are over. And every occupation that is named is over. I'm going to be a dentist, radiologist, accountant, teacher. These are all over. Whatever's coming, get flexible. Get good. Get good on a bunch of different stuff. Learn how to think across disciplines.

I have no idea what's going to be left for us. But somebody's going to come out on top. And I hate to tell people that you should try to come out on top. I don't think it's healthy to have everyone trying to be world class. I think you should be able to just have a life. And I have a golden retriever. I don't know that it's the greatest golden retriever in the world. Sometimes I think it is, but he does a lot of dumb stuff.

But he's my golden retriever. I think that this mania for optimization, like if you look at your own videos, you'll find some of the best performing videos are, this is how to succeed. This is how to get anyone you want. This is how to get out of a bad situation. People just want capacity. But for what?

OK, you've optimized your day. You've optimized your health. Your social media is optimized. Now what? Now what? Now what? I don't know. Well, what should be then? Say, you know, is it time to just...

One would say, well, now I... One would incorrectly say, well, now I can play with my golden retriever. And then one would say, well, you should have been playing with your golden retriever the whole time. But let me put it a little differently. Through some bizarre accident, I've gotten a chance to meet incredible people that I don't even talk about who I've met. I've gotten a chance to see the world.

I haven't seen South America, but I've seen most of the other continents other than the Antarctic. I've had a really rich life. Take somebody who hasn't had those opportunities, but they got a chance to have three kids. I'm not sure I wouldn't trade places. I so enjoyed raising my children. And it's available to everyone. It's such a strange thing that we're talking about optimization on all this stuff. I get to think about the substrate of the universe. Theoretical physics, I dream about visiting the stars. I dream about multiple dimensions of time, meeting aliens, all sorts of things.

I still think having kids was unbeatable. I'm so sad that it's over. I'm so sad that they moved out. I cannot believe that I was dumb enough to live in a society that doesn't believe in having your kids with you your whole life. The idea that we look at places where kids live at home as backwards is beyond me. And shout out to the entire Indian subcontinent. You know, it's just like family is everything. They drive me crazy. But it's just meaning is available for you. And again, every time I get a chance to eat a rambutan,

it's one of my favorite fruits. Mangos, rambutans, jackfruit, cita fall, if you can get, custard apple. The amount of pleasure I get. I've never had a good custard apple in the entire time I've lived in the US. Not one. I've had a frozen one imported from Taiwan. You get this cherimoya, just get out of here, cherimoya, you're not good.

Great custard apple, great cita followed around followed. What a pleasure to be on this earth. And it's available to almost anyone. I just think that you can find meaning. For God's sakes, go to Spotify if you have a connection, if you can afford a connection to Spotify and put in Pablo Casals version of the Bach cello suites. You're as rich as you need to be. I've flown private.

I'd much prefer to listen to Pablo Casals playing the cello suites in economy than to be deprived of real luxury. I don't know. To me, meaning is everywhere. I can't swing a cat without hitting meaning. Have you always been like that? Or is that something that you've cultivated? The point about being able to swing a cat and find meaning, so many people that will be listening now could swing a hundred mile stick and wouldn't hit

meaning in their lives. But you seem to be able to find it in the purer things, there's some more simple things. And I'm wondering if that's something that we can all cultivate with a change of perspective or if it's just the way that you've always been. Why is Joe Rogan such a big deal? You ever listen to Joe Rogan talk about pugilism? Two gentlemen beating the crap out of each other as poetry, as chess. I could listen to Joe talk about MMA for days.

Yeah. You know? The story of Mighty Mouse, the guy trapped in some, I don't know, flyweight division with unbelievable skills who never gets to meet a formidable enemy. You know? Do you think that's a privilege? Do you think that there's a privilege in being able to craft a story?

Because so much of the meaning you're describing there comes from these great stories. And not everybody is able to craft the story upon seeing something. You probably look at this item in front of me, this glass, and create a story about it that drives meaning, that makes you feel something. I worry about its manufacture. How is it that we got a surface of revolution? What is the industrial process? How do we take a picture of this and get a photograph of the machine that made it?

You know that fly that has been buzzing around us this entire interview? Yeah. Do you remember when Obama had a fly? Yeah, and he caught it and, wow, yeah. The confidence of that man. See, I'd try that and I'd miss and I'd screw it up in front of millions of people. You know, it's like I took so much meaning away from that fly. Were you trying to or is that just a sort of...

We all did. Not everyone. Some people would have gone... How was it that you knew exactly what I was talking about? Because he captured a moment. He was the girl in the red dress. Now there's this thing that women say, not every woman can wear red. Well, not every woman can wear red. Well, not every man can grab a fly with confidence.

I think we all see this. I think we all see beauty everywhere. Remember that movie American Beauty with the plastic bag that gets in the air funnel going up? And the key point is the ability just to see beauty wherever you find it. You know, everything behind you means something to me. The letter B, it's strange to me that there's only one

phonetic alphabet and that every phonetic alphabet is descended from it. alphabet and that every phonetic alphabet is descended from it. You know? I basically view everything as a hyperlink. I just want to click on the world and see what it goes to. Not everybody does though. But we do. They don't make the step is what I'm saying because people would see the B and nothing would cross their conscious mind. You know, it's funny. There's an absolutely horrible account that has been just dogging me for years, trying to make my life miserable. And a social media account.

Yeah, doesn't matter. And the person said, you know, one thing I just never understand is he's not, he's not hawking a book. He's just talking. Why are his numbers high? And the answer is everybody cares about this stuff. They want an invitation. One of the funniest things that gets said about me on social media is he goes on forever and he never says anything.

And then, like, I look at the word clouds of things that gets said about me on social media is he goes on forever and he never says anything. And then like I look at the word clouds of things that I've talked about, and people are just Googling everything incessantly. You know, if you didn't know who Pablo Casals was, now you do. Now you know what a real cellist sounds like. I don't know, I just... I can't believe that I'm so far through this life, and that there's so little left.

I can't believe this doesn't go on forever. Is that both of you? My people just got hit. And... You know, you want to talk about the river and the sea. That river is not the Jordan River, and that sea is not the Mediterranean. The Arab world stretches from the Atlantic with Morocco right up to the

Shad al-Arabiya waterway that divides Iraq from Iran. And I don't think this is stable. There is no way in which we should be fighting like this. This is ridiculous. We should be fighting like this. This is ridiculous. Trump used the F word. I mean, he's taking a ton of crap.

Why would you use the F word? Well, isn't it interesting that people view Trump as so tacky? You know, he's got this Queen sort of bluster. He doesn't reek of finalist clubs at Harvard or Skull and Bones or whatever. No. Trump doesn't use the F word for a reason. He needs it once in a blue moon and it better mean something. And he said this to Iran and he said this to Israel. These two countries have been fighting for so long, they don't know what the fuck they're

doing. He didn't make a mistake. The rest of the world has just forgotten how to calibrate. What do you see Trump in? How is he clothed? He's almost always in a suit and tie. And he almost never says the F-word. And it's carefully calibrated to get everybody's attention.

And we're so asleep that we don't even hear it. This is World War III. And it's already started. or three, and it's already started. Biden was there in the Oval Office, non-compassmentus. And I was being told, don't worry, there's a committee that's replaced him. Because I was talking about the fact that he can't be president.

I just don't know what we're doing. I'm so mystified by everybody else. You know, it's like Elon makes sense to me. I'm not Elon. I'm a very different person. But at least Elon makes sense to me. Not 100%, but 98% Elon makes sense to me. It's everybody else that I'm completely confused about.

What part of what Elon is saying makes so much sense to you? Oh, geez, everything. One, we have to have babies. We have to keep going. Two, it can't all be about problems. You have to be excited to be alive every morning. You have to work your ass off your whole life. You know one of the most beautiful things that ever happened?

Somebody telling Elon that he was the world's richest human being. And he said, huh, it's interesting. Okay, back to work. Amazing, right? There's no reward that he can't have more of by stopping work and enjoying his wealth except doing stuff. And I was born in this country. My parents were born in this country.

My grandparents on one side were not, but my grandparents on the other side were. Elon is so American. That cowboy spirit, he does all sorts of stuff I can't stand. I don't want to see one more of those Pepe memes ever. I really don't. What the fuck is his problem? Okay, I don't know him at all. But Elon at his best is the United States. You know? Anything is possible here. And we just waste our lives on interpersonal drama. He wastes his life to an enormous extent as a troll. I cannot, the part of him that I don't understand

is one, why he's not focused 100% on physics. I think he sees it as going through Grok and AI, he doesn't want to trust humans. I think he sees Mars as energizing to engineers and the stars are innovating to engineers because the science, there's no amount of engineering, you can't engineer your way to the stars with the science we have. But he's being a complete pussy when it comes to science, and he's being a total hero when it comes to engineering.

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make it count and promote your job on LinkedIn. Head to linkedin.com slash DOAC. That's linkedin.com slash DOAC and terms and conditions apply. A second ago, you said you can't believe it doesn't go on forever. Yeah. You or the universe or?

I can't believe my story doesn't go on forever. Look, I've never died before, so I have no experience with it. So as far as I know, I've always been alive. And it'll always go on that way. But there's another thing that I've talked about occasionally, which is I'm not the most public spirited human being. You know, I am somebody who will take the last rambutan. You know, and I know that you're not supposed to do that

in almost any culture on earth, but sometimes just sitting there bothers me. Okay, so I'm not the classiest person on earth. But I'll tell you something, if you have a kid and you have a choice about eating the rambutan yourself or giving the rambutan to your child, it's a no-brainer. You'll enjoy the rambutan so much more if you give it to your kid. You'll see. And that's the way in which this goes on forever.

It's great. I mean, just how many young people do I have to yell at? I don't know if I want to have kids. I don't want to bring anyone into this horrible world. Have kids. It bothers you. I can see it personally. It bothers you.

Do you have any idea how much hate there is right now for Israel? Do you have any idea how destabilizing this action against Iran was? Do you have any idea how many people have suffered for how long under the mullahs? We are being cheated of Persia. I'm not talking about Iran for the Persians. I'm talking about we are cheated of Persia, the entire planet, one of the greatest societies on earth taken off the line. Look, you're catching me on the wrong week.

I don't want to dwell on it. This is just incredibly irresponsible. We're not going to survive this. Israel is certainly not going to survive this. If the Abrahamic world does not get its head out of its ass, if the Christian world does not start to stand up for itself without becoming this Christ is King nightmare. You know, I was in Tel Aviv before this all happened.

I just said it from the stage, make the Middle East Christian again. said from the stage, make the Middle East Christian again. Does nobody understand their role is sort of my question. How can you have Bethlehem without a strong Christian presence? Have you ever been to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher? No. Can I give you another assignment? Yeah. Get off your ass and go, you got the money. Walk the stations of the Holy Sepulcher? No. Can I give you another assignment? Yeah. Get off your ass and go.

You got the money. Walk the stations of the cross. And for God's sakes, stop with the issue about belief. You can pray like the rest of us. We're not sure if we're praying. We're not sure if the thing is hooked up and anyone's listening. We're not sure if we're praying. We're not sure if the thing is hooked up and anyone's listening. You have the right to go back even with doubt, even with knowledge.

And you have the right to believe about a tomorrow, you know, where you're not going to be, but people are going to be mentioning your name. When you say that your people are under attack, who are you referencing as your people? I would in general, there's several groups of people that I would describe as my people. The Jews would be one, dyslexics would be another, Americans would be another, scientists would be another. It depends on what these think,

but right now I'm thinking about the Jews and I'm thinking about the Jews and I'm thinking about the fact that the social media businesses have lost complete control of the bot farms. And we're just seeing this unbelievable. I feel like I'm living through the 1930s again. We've seen this movie before. It doesn't end well. What happened in Gaza is an unbelievable tragedy.

That tragedy was partially architected by the United States of America, shoving a two-state solution down the throats of Palestinian Arabs who absolutely do not want a two-state solution. And the creation in part of the situation where Israel has a hand, the US has a hand, the Palestinian Arabs have a hand, the creation of Hamas and the promotion of this just unbelievable genius, Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, who is continuing to best Bibi Netanyahu from the grave. You know, it's just an amazing feat. Nobody reads anymore, as you know. There's an old Sherlock Holmes story called

The Problem at Thor Bridge, you ever heard of it? No. So you're British. Sherlock Holmes gets called in on a case in which there's a murder, and the murder is traced, the murder is traced to this gentleman who still exists. What Sherlock Holmes figures out is that it's not a murder, it's a suicide in which the gun will fall into the river at Thor Bridge because it's tied to a weight. And the person uses the suicide to frame someone else.

It's just one of these genius little vignettes. And that's what Sinwar was. He was a genius. He knew he was going to die. Who was Sinwar? Sinwar was the person who's committed suicide. Sinwar's suicide was an IDF assisted suicide. I wrote about this almost instantly after the October 7th invasion.

It didn't make any sense that Gaza would undertake such an act against Israel, given the asymmetry. What this mirrored was that before the 1990s... So you think Sinwar committed suicide to then cause the people of Gaza to invade Israel? No, no, no. Oh, sorry. Sinwar would be happy enough for all the Gazans to die. And so what he did was he architected a situation in which Israel would be compelled to respond using the wrong tools.

He tricked Israel. I'm very confident to talk about this because if you check my old tweets, I say, IDF assisted suicide and Munchausen by proxy and Zugzwang. And I said, these are the concepts, familiarize with yourself, because Israel is going to invade Gaza. And I knew what was going to happen, because it took me, like, why would you do this? It doesn't make sense from first order logic, but third and fourth order logic, you're like, oh, of course it makes sense.

This is hybrid war. The most important thing for Senor is video. Why? Look at the effector is video. Why? Look at the effect of the video. The video of Gaza has turned the world to an extent against Israel that's sort of inconceivable. There's a doctrine called hybrid warfare. I think it came out of the US in the early 2000s. It says that the kinetic component of warfare, the killing, the actual shooting and the planes

and the bombs and all this kind of stuff, is not the major component. The social media is really important. The video is important. The mimetic complex is important. And Israel has an advantage over the Gazan Arabs in kinetic warfare. And Sinwar knew that and he was like, brilliant. All we need to do is force Israel to come after us. And this is this thing I was going to say, before the 1990s,

we had a spate of killings of policemen firing on people who had pulled toy guns on them. And we would say things, and I remember this, like, whatever you do, don't point a toy gun at a policeman. Don't you realize what's going to happen? And then somebody coined the phrase, police assisted suicide. The policeman is the instrument. That's what I knew was going to happen. And for better or for worse, Bibi just couldn't figure out where he was.

And Bibi was dumber, and Senor was smarter. Is there any way back from here? Because you said this is World War III. Well, the way that there is, but it's slim, and it's evaporating. I mean, almost everything depends on Saudi Arabia and the Iranians, the Persians. If the Persians didn't take this opportunity to rise up against their oppressors, I don't

know what they're waiting for. Yes, you're going to get killed in some numbers, but you have to figure out whether you're interested in tyranny or not. So the Persians are absolutely falling down on the ground, on the job, not rising up against the mullahs. This is a coordinated moment. Like, you know, there's a moment for a prison break. This would be it.

Who are the mullahs? The Ayatollahs, the Khomeini, yeah, the theocratic government of Iran. So the rulers of Iran, basically, the people that are, okay. So I don't know if you know a ton of Persians. They're varied in their religiosity. But there's an underground gay scene in Tehran. There's super hypermodern people just like you and me who can't stay on these guys. And so you're saying that if they rise up...

That would be one of the parts of the solution The other thing is Saudi Arabia and I have to be very measured and careful here You can't Fantasize about the Middle East becoming Western Europe overnight every time we do this we make a terrible mistake When you have a modernizer like MBS in Saudi Arabia. He's the ruler of Saudi Arabia, right? De facto. He can't suddenly become a modern person. So if we end up talking about Khashoggi and murders and murder of journalists and all

this stuff, the whole conversation will derail. But he's a modernizer. And there was a moment where he needed to not condemn Israel publicly and thank it privately, but to say, we've all been terrorized by this country, and Israel did what everyone needed. We needed to rise up against the mullahs because you can't have a nuclear theocracy. You can't have a highly developed notion of heaven where this is the anti-room where you're

waiting to get into the real room. of needing to be rid of an aspiring nuclear theocracy, something that Israel undertook. Now, something that I'm gonna say, there are three words in Yiddish which you may have heard or may not, shlomil, shlomazel, and nebuch. So, there are three unfortunate people. You don't want to be any one of those three. But the subtlety is that the shlomil is a klutz.

And the shlomil spills hot soup on the shlemazel. So the shlemazel is the unfortunate person to whom bad things happen. And the nebuch is the weak, ineffectual person who decides that it's his job to clean up the mess. So the Shlomil spills the scalding hot soup on the Shlemazel and the Nebuch cleans it up. Now in the U.S., we've got this terrible sort of Christian nationalist problem that we've developed, which is what sometimes people call the woke right, where we have a bunch of people who've been badly treated.

White Christian Americans have been badly treated in the woke era. They've been forced to salute everybody else's, you know, yay for, you know, I don't know, Honduran Lesbians Day. And it's like, okay, enough. We don't want to do that anymore. We've also done great things. And I absolutely think that they've been mistreated. And they've gone sort of metastatic.

And their attitude is, no more wars for Israel. America first. What I was getting to with the Shlomash, Shlomozl, and Nebuch is that most Americans don't have any idea who Kermit Roosevelt was. Do you have any idea idea who Kermit Roosevelt was. Do you have any idea who Kermit Roosevelt was? So the US and the UK jointly overthrew a democratically-elected in Iran through something called Operation Ajax. We installed the Shah, and then there's this period where everybody stupidly celebrates

the miniskirts and the jazz that was going through Tehran, which was a bridge too far. In other words, the miniskirts were a really bad idea because they were ready for some amount of modernization and they weren't ready for that. And so we pushed it too far. And so we got the mullahs for 40 years. And now we chop off people's fingers and we pluck out people's eyes and we put homosexuals on ropes and dangle them from cranes. They're barbaric, they're horrible human beings. These are really bad

men, the mullahs. And we did that. So the scalding hot soup is revolutionary, theocratic Iran. And we spilled it all over the Middle East, which is the Shlemazl. We spilled it on Saudi Arabia. We spilled it on Iraq. We spilled it on Israel. Everybody suffers from having these people installed because of the U.S. and the U.K.

instituting a problem back in the 50s. And who's the Nebuch? Who cleans this up? Israel volunteers for this job. And then Saudi Arabia pretends, oh my god, this is terrible. Our Muslim brother is being attacked by our Jewish barbarian. I just can't believe anybody's dumb enough to fall for all of this. Like we're involved in a story where nobody can sort things out.

There's no talking heads anyone believes in. And if I didn't understand this, then how is it that I have a tweet from, you know, 10 days after October 7th, or I appeared on Trigger Nometry, I'm telling you, Israel hasn't even walked into Gaza yet, and I know what the strategy is. Iran sent hypersonic missiles into the ground in Israel as a message. Violence is a language, and they spoke it well. The mullahs may be crazy, but they're still Persians.

They're extraordinarily skilled. And so what they did is they wasted some of their arsenal saying, you have no iron dome, and we're not going to kill you. We're going to put our missiles, we're going to waste our missiles by sending them into your earth and try to kill no one. And the Israelis, these brilliant genius Israelis who pull off all sorts of things

that the world can't believe, are dumb enough, some of them, to say, huh, they sent all these missiles and they couldn't even hit anyone. And I'm just thinking, do none of you understand anything? I just don't even know where I am. And I'm looking at, you know, I know Tulsi.

Tulsi Gabbard. Yeah. Tulsi's amazing. She's the head of the intelligence program for the United States. Director of National Intelligence, right? Tulsi has seen the devastation, not of war, but of US action abroad. We haven't really had full wars, but we get involved in Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever.

People die and there are firefights. It's not like it has nothing to do with war, but full on war is a very different thing. We say the Iraq war, but I want to be very careful about the language. War usually involves you getting rocked at home, not just your troops abroad. I don't think she appreciates the gravity of the situation, that somehow what we need to do is we need to stabilize this

thing for 50 to 100 years while we desperately try to figure out a long-term solution. This idea of just, we're not taking responsibility for the world we already screwed up. I don't want to send Americans. I'm not an Israeli. I'm an American I don't want to send my fellow Americans to die in foreign battles that we have no business being in but We have to take ownership of our history with oil and energy in the Middle East. What does that look like taking ownership? Recognizing that we created the mullahs.

And doing what about it? Wait, wait a second, not just that. And that we also created a lot of the heartache along with Sinwar, and to a much lesser extent Israel, by foisting this two-state solution on people who would never put up with it. Like I lived in Israel for two years. You would have conversations with Arabs, some of whom are Israelis, you know?

And they would say, look, you just don't understand the West Bank and you don't understand the difference between the West Bank and Gaza. And they would tell me straight up, you're going to get us all killed with this two-state solution, stop it. up, you're going to get us all killed with this two-state solution. Stop it. And it was very hard for me to hear. But we're just having a child's conversation about the Middle East. And I will say this about the UK. The British Foreign Service had a different failure mode than the US.

They really learned the regions. They learned the dialects of the languages of the countries that they were involved in. The British Empire took many places that they were involved in seriously. They have a very complicated legacy. I spent a lot of time in Bombay and there's a lot of debate among very educated Indians About figuring out how to think about the British legacy all of the great institutional structures that were built all of the Prejudice and bigotry

Why was such a small country able to colonize such a large land? Basically working with the locals. You know, it's a rich conversation. We're having childlike conversations about all of this. I'm sorry if I'm going on about this, but it's just a very weird thing that we're—we can't get anybody's attention. You can't even get my attention. You know, I'm watching hypersonic missiles slam into the places I just was.

And then I'm watching a cat video. And then I'm trying to figure out what to order through Uber Eats. And it's just like, I can't stay focused. It's really important to put this right. And the US screwed up the Middle East along with the UK really good. And we have a lot of responsibility. And if we want to go isolationist, I understand that. But you first have to put back the chicken soup that you spilled. And how did you do that?

I'm not sure. I'm not the director of national intelligence. I'm not the secretary of defense. I'm not in the Oval Office. I mean, it's very weird. I was workmates with JD Vance. These are people who are, you know, Bobby Kennedy lives one canyon over from me in Los Angeles. The people around power in the US, Godspeed, you know, just wish them well.

I don't care what party you're in, but to try to sabotage Trump or sabotage Tulsi or sabotage Pete Hicks, these guys need to figure this out and they need to be at a totally different level. And he's figuring it out peace in the region? You know the peace between Egypt and Israel is a shitty crappy horrible peace, but it's peace. It's not a loving relationship. It's not a question of everybody going back and forth between the two countries saying,

you know, we used to be enemies, now we're friends. It's a lousy, cold peace. I'll take it. We need to have peace between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs who can live in peace. And we need the people who cannot live in peace, we need to find someplace else for them to be. It is absolutely imperative. And by the way, this goes for the Israelis.

There are a small number of hardcore Israeli cell holders who cannot live in peace with their neighbors. And it's very important that the people who cannot live in peace not be there. Do we need to go to, are you suggesting that we focus on regime change in Iran? That is really the responsibility of the Persians. So I want to get clear on what you see as a solution, because you're saying the Persian people have to rise up.

The US need to care but not get involved in that regime change. I'm saying that a bunch of things need to happen if we're to have a long term solution. I make you president tomorrow. I hate when people do this. But it's the clearest way of understanding the actions you would. First of all, if I was president tomorrow, I sure as hell wouldn't be on a podcast discussing strategy with you Trump does it yeah, I declined to answer all sorts of questions on camera. Yeah

So my feeling is is that you do a lot more behind closed doors and this idea of just handing people You're the king of the world. What do you do tomorrow to stop? You know, it's like don't do that to me because it's just it's a no-win question If I was gonna I do a lot of stroussian communication, I'd meet with people in private, I use lots of carrots and sticks, I try to use long-range thinking, and I wouldn't tell you what my plan is. And by the way, I very much respect Donald Trump in certain ways, one of which is that, this confuses our friend Sam Harris no end.

Sam is always like, well, he's not being truthful. He's not making sense. He's a negotiator. You don't sit down to a negotiation with an open book saying, let me make sense to you. You sit there saying, you don't know what I'm going to do next. You don't know how big the stick is. You don't know how much carrot there is. Maybe I'm prepared to give you more.

Maybe my stick isn't as big as you think, or maybe it's twice as big. Do you think anyone has good answers? I'll be honest. I think that Trump is in part respected because he has some intuitions about this stuff. His intuition is not to say everything. His intuition is that negotiation is more important than transparency and At a time when everybody's craving transparency tell me everything No, I'm not gonna tell you everything

I'm gonna try to save some children today I'm gonna threaten I'm gonna cajole I'm gonna do all sorts of things. And that's what I'd do. I would assemble the best people around me. I would stop giving so many press conferences. I wouldn't tweet every four seconds. I'd be extremely strategic about it. But, you know, the situation in Tel Aviv and in Gaza makes me sick to my stomach. And in Ukraine, almost all of my DNA comes from Ukraine.

At least pass through it. I've been there. And you know, Russians and Ukraine, Ukraine used to be known as Little Russia. This is a, how are we sitting here watching this? What moron decided in 2004 that we were just going to hand full Article 5 status to former Soviet republics without consequence. It is not the case that I don't—I would love to have Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania in NATO. Not at this cost.

Look, the world is a brutal, brutal place. We've gotten really bad at international understandings. I can't stand what's happened to Europe. Europe has been completely denatured. We're playing with fire everywhere, and I just, I don't know how to talk about it because every time I talk about things where I'm the only person who sounds like this, it's bad for my life. Look, if you're in general a Ukraine hawk and you say, you know, we need to make sure

that Ukraine is completely supported so that they don't give an inch of territory, yeah, you'll take a lot of crap, but you'll be in a large group. And if you basically have the idea that Russia was minding its own business and the US was encircling it and good Russia, bad US, you'll have a lot of company for that perspective. I don't sound like any of that. The most important thing is to stabilize the world again, and we're not going to get another chance like World War II if we're not smart. We're crazy to give up this order that we have.

Again, one more time, I'm talking about this stuff and I don't want to be talking about this stuff. Elon is 100% right. We can't talk about problems all the time. It's cheap meaning. There's an entire universe to explore. And we're sitting here focused on our own drama, always. And I'm getting sucked into it. I don't want it.

I want to be talking about traveling through time and space using Easter eggs and hidden features of what we thought was the space-time continuum. Because I talked about ketosis on this podcast and ketones, a brand called Ketone IQ sent me their little product here. It was on my desk when I got to the office. I picked it up, it sat on my desk for a couple of weeks, then one day I tried it. And honestly, I have not looked back ever since. I now have this everywhere I go.

When I travel all around the world, it's in my hotel room, my team will put it there. Before I did the podcast recording today that I've just finished, I had a shot of ketone IQ. And as is always the case, when I fall in love with a product, I called the CEO and asked if I could invest a couple of million quid into their company.

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These are people who didn't wait, who heard me saying things like this, and instead of procrastinating, started building, then launched something, and now they're getting paid to do it. Stan is incredibly simple and incredibly easy and you can link it with a Shopify store that you're already using if you want to. I'm on it and so is my girlfriend and many of my team.

So if you want to join, start by launching your own business with a free 30 day trial. Visit stevenbartlett.stan.store and get your set up within minutes. I've got this uh this picture that I came across. Tell me. Um well I'd love you to tell me this is the flower of life geometric model and I was I was reading through some of your work and I came across this sentence that said you'd kept a secret for 30 years in terms of your belief about the nature of the reality that we live in and that you thought maybe it was more than

just the dimensions we experienced, maybe there was 14 dimensions. I've always, well, I wonder this a lot, because we're fixated on problems, we're fixated on what we see and what we hear and what we feel, but I wonder sometimes if even that is an illusion. I've spent a lot of time actually thinking recently

about the simulation theory and is this whole reality just some simulation on some kid's video game in another dimension? So I thought, you know, you're a physicist. Give me a favor. Put that in a triangle pattern here. Okay, so we have three mugs. Think of those as vertices of a tetrahedron

and think of this coaster floating here as the fourth vertex. For every two vertices, so the number of vertices we would agree is four. Yeah, what does vertices mean? Points. Yeah, one, two, three, four. Idealize these three things and this as points. Draw a line segment between all of these four vertices. How many line segments are there?

One, two, three, four, five, six. Six? Yep. So there's six edges, four vertices. How many triangular faces that have three vertices on them? Oh, four. Yeah. This is how to think about the actual dimensions that we three vertices on them. Oh, four. Yeah, this is how to think about the actual dimensions that we have open to us. The four faces we know about. The key point that I was trying to get at is, I don't believe that you just have the four dimensions.

I believe that you have all six edges are dimensions, and all four vertices are also dimensions. I'm talking about a hidden world. It's very interesting. Physics has gone stagnant in terms of how we usually measure progress. The way we measure progress is the change in something called the action, or the Lagrangian, the specialized device. And that used to change a lot, and then in 1973 it stopped changing. The major

thing that we have is we have no new ideas about how to change the Lagrangian that anybody finds that exciting or interesting. So there's been no progress. Nobody goes to Stockholm to get a Nobel Prize because they changed the Lagrangian of the world. What's the Lagrangian? The Lagrangian... So you probably think about physics in terms of equations, like Maxwell's equations or the Einstein equations or whatever. Think about an equation as being not the primary thing that physicists think about. So I give this example.

The Beatles had four basically different configurations. When Ringo was the front man, he was singing Octopus's Garden. George Harrison is singing While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Paul is singing about Penny Lane and John is singing about my guitar gently weeps. Paul is singing about Penny Lane, and John is singing about strawberry fields forever. Those four equations, those different configurations of the Beatles, with one of them front

and everybody else backing the front man, would be the equations. But the Beatles would be the Lagrangian. It's the thing that generates the four different configurations. OK. And there's this bizarre force field that anybody who wants to talk about physics and doing

something new, in particular, leaving or traversing time or multiple dimensions of time, anything that's really close to what might be possible gets slammed. We don't know why. Because it's very cheap to explore ideas, and we have no new ideas. But the only thing about a new idea in physics is that a new idea changes the balance of power in the world. Do you remember the thing I was saying about Alpha Fold 3? Yeah.

Alpha Fold 3 changed the balance of power in the world. Bitcoin changed the balance of power in the world. The diffuse proposal from the EcoHealth Alliance changed the balance of power in the world if that was the source of the COVID virus. Any time somebody has a really big idea, and the biggest idea, and you know, I talk about this, people don't grasp it,

probably the most dangerous thought anyone has ever had was Rutherford in 1911 saying, I wonder whether there's a neutral version of the proton. It doesn't sound dangerous, but it's hard to send a proton into a bunch of protons because it's positively charged and a massive nucleus is really positively charged, and so there's a repulsion. If there's a neutral version of the proton, and these things are barely stuck together with a strong force, even though they're

trying to scream away from each other, because they're all positively charged, you can send a neutral version of the proton right into the center. Tap, and just imagine you have a bunch of magnets that are trying to flee from each other, and the Velcro around them is barely holding it together. So now you have a bullet in the form of a neutral proton, a neutron,

and it hits this thing where the magnets want to come apart and the Velcro is barely holding it together. Well, that idea led to the chain reaction. And the nuclear bomb? Well, that was the fission bomb. And then a geometer, so I'm a geometer and not a physicist, and a physicist named Edward Teller and the geometer is named Stanislaus Ulam said, I wonder if there's a way to take the chemical bomb that creates the fission bomb and use the fission bomb as the detonator for a fusion bomb. So bomb number one, bomb number two, bomb number three.

And what they figured out was that the only way to create that is to reflect light in a particular way to compress hydrogen into helium and release energy. Because anything other than light wouldn't get to the tertiary stage fast enough before the atomic bomb, like you're using a Hiroshima Nagasaki as a detonator. That's how crazy it is. So that chain of ideas, which is maybe there's a neutral version of the proton, maybe I can send that into the middle of an atom that's very heavy, that was built in a stellar collision.

Maybe if I have a bunch of those uranium or plutonium type things, each one when they break apart will have more neutrons inside, that is more neutral protons, that will hit more nuclei, that will release more energy, and maybe that can then focus the light, the gamma radiation that comes off of this thing, or who knows what, to compress a narrow rod to create fusion, which only occurs in the sun. But do it on Earth. So we're going to take a little bit of the sun on Earth. That chain of ideas was the most dangerous thing anybody's ever

thought. And that's why when you try to do physics, you don't know why are people making fun of me, why are they being mean, why are they dissuading me from talking. I don't know. You have a suspicion. Well, there was a guy named Jack Raper, the unfortunately named Mr. Jack Raper,

who was a reporter in Cleveland, who for some reason during the war in 1944 decided to vacation in New Mexico. So he goes to New Mexico and he comes back and he says, I've got a crazy story. There's a city that nobody knows about with a mayor who's supposed to be the second Einstein. And it's the most secretive city in the world.

And the mayor is working on a doomsday weapon, and even the people who live in the city don't know what it is. And he writes the story of Los Alamos and publishes it in 1944. The Scoop of the Millenniumium to say nothing of the century. Nobody knows about this article and it's called Forbidden City. We pretended that it never happened. For those that don't know, Los Alamos is where the atomic, the nuclear bomb was, I guess, conceived and brought to life and tested.

bomb was, I guess, conceived and brought to life and tested? Well, it was really, it was really designed there. And most of the nuclear processing took place at other sites, whether Hanford or Oak Ridge, I'm not sure. And it was tested a short distance away at the Trinity site. So go watch the movie Oppenheimer, if you will. But this is why physics why physicists are the only occupation in the country that doesn't have full free speech. So are you suggesting that there's dangers

in believing in more dimensions that maybe some people might not want to be known in the same way that we didn't want them? My point is, I don't think our government knows the real secrets of physics. If I had to make a bet tomorrow, I don't think there's a secret government office that knows physics.

Okay? I think that there were a bunch of very smart people who knew how dangerous physics was, and that the idea that we would continue to do it in public struck them as insane. Because it could lead to destruction. When I tell you that the most dangerous idea in human history is maybe there's a neutral version of the proton, that's supposed to sound insane. But the entire chain of ideas results in nuclear fusion happening on Earth at the direction of the President of the United States.

And that's what I'm trying to get at, which people don't understand, which is you probably don't even realize that the Department of Energy is really the Department of Physics, because we pretend that it's the Department of Energy is really the Department of Physics. Because we pretend that it's the Department of Energy. Like we had a War Department that became the Department of Defense. We're scared of the possibility of physics. We don't even want to talk about it. Literally no other occupation has lost free speech like physics. There's a special doctrine called restricted data

that says you cannot write physics on a napkin, even if you have nothing to do with the government. I think even if you're not an American, if it has anything that could possibly have to do with nuclear weapons. In other words, any advance that might have to do with nuclear weapons, you have to recognize that the instant you put pen to paper or you start talking to somebody, you're committing a violation of the 1917 Espionage Act.

And if you think that's crazy, start exploring the words restricted data, 1917 Espionage Act, 1946 and 1954 Atomic Energy Acts, the doctrine of born secret. It is illegal to pursue cue clearance data if you don't have a Q clearance But if you're creating Q clearance data out of your own head as a byproduct of trying to do physics You are actually potentially committing a capital offense And your theory of everything your theory the theory you just talked to me about there What does that mean for the for the average person that's listening to this in In terms of the way... We don't know....that they should... Well, this is my point. Did Rutherford know what he was doing?

No. So I talk about this a lot, but I do think it's probably one of the greatest lyrics ever in any song. And unfortunately, it occurs in a song that got way too popular. in a song that got way too popular. The baffled king composing Hallelujah, that line. A baffled king does not realize what he is doing when he composes. Rutherford was a baffled king. Maybe there is a neutral version of the proton. He was composing the end of the human race.

And your ideas about the nature of reality? I'm a baffled person. And your proposal? I am baffled. I don't know what it leads to, is what I'm trying to tell you. But your assertion is that there's more than this dimension that we understand and more than Einstein's? I'm telling you that I can name for you what particles there are left to be found. And what comes back to me is you don't have any predictions. And I'm thinking, this doesn't even make sense.

Literally, I'm telling you there are, maybe there's a neutral version of the proton doesn't begin to talk about all the things that I'm talking about. So many new forces, so many new particles, ways to go in. There's no longer an arrow of time in my theory. So you could live forever theoretically. What does it mean? If you think about a final theory, and again, by the way, I just want to say something.

I say my theory sometimes when I'm having to defend it, but it isn't mine. It just is. Everest didn't belong to Sir Edmund Hillary or to Mallory or even to the surveyor for whom the mountain is named. When you chose to make the first ascent on Everest, you just chose a route and then you either did or did not traverse the route. We don't know whether Mallory may have succeeded. But my point is that this isn't my theory.

There is a theory that's there. It might be wrong. It's possible. I may have screwed it up. But it's got so much in it that I have no idea what it means. And the simple way to understand this theory is that there's dimensions that exist beyond the ones that we know. We already know from Einstein that these dimensions are implicitly in Einstein's theory. Every single dimension that I'm talking about is being constructed out of the four that we began with. When I put the cups here and the coaster, the edges were calculated from the vertices, and the faces were calculated from the edges.

My point being, these dimensions are already here. And because the dimensions are already here, they were already present in Einstein's theory all along. When you ask for what Einstein's real equation is, we actually don't think about it that way. We call it the Einstein field equations, plural. How many of them are there? 10.

Why are there 10? Because there are six edges and four vertices that weren't accounted for. They're already in Einstein's theory. vertices that weren't accounted for. They're already in Einstein's theory. We just didn't take them seriously as directions you could go in. You've heard about the simulation theory, haven't you?

Why, I don't want to talk about it. Really? Well, again, it's the LLM problem. The really interesting thing comes from I don't know, and maybe the cosmos is traversable. Maybe time's travel replaces time travel. You see, if I flip all of the dimensions of time and space, so I have one of time, three of space in Einstein's theory.

The time dimension gets a minus sign. The three spatial dimensions get a plus sign. And the three spatial dimensions are? X, Y, and Z. Z, forgive me. Which is, for a simple person. Depth, width, and height. Yeah, you can go forward, backwards, up, down.

Right. So we have three dimensions there. And then we have one of time, because the conversation takes place over time. you're moving around. Now flip the time dimension to being plus when it was minus before, and all the plus dimensions to being minus. So now I have three time dimensions and one space dimension. It would look exactly the same.

The one space dimension would take the function of time, and the three time dimensions would have the function of space. We don't even teach people the idea that there is not necessarily an arrow of time if time is not one-dimensional. The only dimension that has an arrow is one. If something has one dimension, you can say, and you know, I tried to do this on Rogan. I said, if you have a cassette tape and you want to go back to an earlier song, again, your younger listeners will have no idea what we're talking about. You have

to go back through all of the songs before. But if you have a stylus on a turntable, some of them will be hipsters with vinyl in their own homes. You can lift the stylus up, and it doesn't need to go back and unplay each song in reverse. OK. You may be able to go back in time without going back through time.

Okay, you may be able to go back in time without going back through time. I don't know what this means, but it's a lot like saying maybe there's a neutral version of the proton. Now, what I'm concerned about is that essentially none of my physics friends know that there is a doctrine of restricted data. They've never heard of the 1946 and 54 Atomic Energy Acts. They don't know that the Department of Energy that funds them is really the Department of Physics. They don't know the extent to which we went to hide all of this stuff. They don't know that they're not allowed to talk to foreign nationals from hostile nations on our own soil because of a doctrine called deemed exports. There's an entire hidden world of national security.

And the penalty for talking about national security with people who don't live that is that you're a conspiracy theorist. It's like, do you have any of this terminology? Do you know the acts? Do you want to Google it? Well, you're, this is also just something that's really interesting about the UFO UAP world.

We had this admission recently that the government knew that at a minimum, and again, I don't think this is by anywhere close to the full story, at a minimum, there were secret, fake special access programs. Do you know about special access programs? Super secret programs are called special access programs. Then there's a further category called unacknowledged special access programs, or USAPs, which is you can know that a special access program exists.

Like, you know, maybe warhead recovery might be a known one. But then, like, there might be an unacknowledged special access program, which is like theft of foreign nuclear warheads, which is not even on the books. Only the super secret lawmakers in the Gang of Eight or whatever it is can know that that exists. And then there are further designations of secretness. There's waved and bigoted.

So you can have a waved, bigoted, unacknowledged special access program. And you don't know any of this language. And then there's this chorus of morons who the instant you start to educate people about the existence of the Super Secret Squirrel Club, rise up and say, this is all conspiracy theory. And you're saying, wait a second.

We just admitted in UFO UAP land that we have a fake special access program, which I predicted on Joe Rogan. I said, we may be faking a UFO situation. The cost and the penalty at a personal level for letting people know how the government keeps secrets is personal destruction. The US faked a UFO program. Yes, correct. You don't know about this.

I think the Wall Street Journal had an article about it. So these guys knew when they filed their reports on the UFO UAP that there actually is, at a minimum, a fake UFO UAP program. Why would they want to fake UFOs? This is so weird. Did you happen to watch Joe Rogan episode 1945 where I talked about the whole history of the Golden Age of General Relativity and its relationship to UFO, UAP, anti-gravity research and the atomic bomb. When we invaded the beaches of Normandy on D-Day, that was called Operation Overlord.

We had an entirely fake invasion planned of Norway called Operation Fortitude that was part of Operation Bodyguard, which is part of just total deception. And why? Because we were building up troops to do something huge. So we tried to convince. We like planted plans for the invasion of Norway on dead bodies to wash up on beaches

so the Germans would find them. We fake stuff all the time. That's what we do. And you can't talk about what we do that is deceptive without being ruined by what are called covert influence operations. Like if you'll watch my Twitter account, you'll see all sorts of accounts descend on it. Fraud, Charlotte, and Grifter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Some of that is just people being mean. But you'll notice that if I really start talking about physics,

and I start talking about security, and I start talking about things that anyone can Google and most of us don't think to do it. Suddenly it gets really, really intense. And the whole point is it's supposed to be untraceable. It's supposed to be a way in which, like almost certainly, we know a ton about what happened in the Wuhan Institute of Virology

Because of two bio weapons conventions that we were signatories and to and which we ratified There's the Geneva Convention and a bio weapons convention in the 1970s, but that's not top of mind for ordinary people. They just watched You know their great-grandma grandma die and watch their children get sick and they watch their own brain fog. They can't know whether that was a bio weapon that we were working on coming out of the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill with Ralph Berrick's lab. We're up to constant secret stuff. Why would they fake the UFOs though? What was that a distraction for?

You ever seen the B-2 bomber? Yeah. What if you saw that before we were ready to say it existed? Yeah, you'd think it was a UFO or something. So wouldn't it be better if we had a UFO story ready to go when we had cool aerospace? Oh, okay. So you're saying they're working on something which they didn't want you to know. What's more, what if we convinced China or Russia or Iran that we had incredible powers

that they don't have? Then they might be very reluctant to strike us. Or they might waste a tremendous amount of money developing anti-gravity technology when there's no such thing. There are plenty of good reasons to fake such things. Why would we fake it? Why would we plan an invasion of Norway if we weren't going to invade? But if that's a distraction technique,

do you have any hypothesis as to what was going on there? But that's not my job. OK. Because as soon as you do that, I know that the quality of my guessing is not going to be at the quality of my detecting when we're up to bullshit. OK.

So in other words, if you ask me, why is physics stagnant? I can say, I don't know. But there's a decent chance that we know how dangerous physics is and that it's crazy to do it in an open University environment. We've taken precautions. We have a system of national laboratories Which are effectively our secret university system Where you have to be an American so we're using our regular universities and the whole world comes through it You know, we have Chinese people learning physics side-by-side our own people

And I guess you're saying that you don't know if UFOs exist, but you're sure now that they were faking the science? I am absolutely positive that we have unacknowledged programs that have UFO written on the side of them. Okay. In other words, the number of people who repeat strikingly similar things, who appear to be completely sober in every other respect with no known acting ability, there is no way in the world that these people just spontaneously have decided to destroy their sanity, their

career and their reputation. I've got you. At a minimum, we're faking. I think we are doing a lot more than faking a UFO program. I don't know what it is, and I also would not be talking about this on a large podcast, but for one thing. I have a particular hatred for one aspect of our intelligence community. And I don't mean that I disagree or don't like or I'm not uncomfortable.

When our secret squirrel club inside the intelligence world and inside, in particular, covert operations targets our own people who are not read into these programs for personal destruction, reputational destruction, mental destruction, economic destruction. We take our best people and we make fun of them. We belittle them and we destroy their families, their lives, their ability to earn. I have a very strong sense that you never destroy

your best people. Do you think you're under attack? Let me talk about Leo Zillard instead. Leo Zillard is the father of the Manhattan Project. Which was the where the nuclear bomb was created? That's right. He was not allowed to go inside the Manhattan Project because they didn't trust him. He was a genius. He was the idea for the Manhattan Project. He and Einstein made sure that it happened. The government barely trusted Oppenheimer if you saw the film.

What they did with Leo Zillard was they minded him. They knew how good he was. They knew how important he was. They listened to him, and they didn't destroy him. He undoubtedly knew that the program was going on But he wasn't allowed inside the program I Think that's okay. I think it's okay that our security state Recognizes that some people are not cut out to keep secrets some people are not cut out

To die with certain facts that have to be kept hidden. That's fine. The desire of our government to destroy people who have no idea what they've tripped over, because our government isn't good enough to keep its own secrets, this is an abomination. You cannot destroy your A-Team. Who are you referring to when you say people are being destroyed? Are you referring to people like yourself?

You know, if you look at, for example, Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein conducted a conference called Confronting Gravity. I don't know who Jeffrey Epstein was, but I would certainly bet money that he was a product of at least one or more elements of the intelligence community. The CIA, the FBI? Those are ours. Right? Department of Homeland Security has some of the stuff.

Geospatial Intelligence has some of this. It's a large network. I'm talking about people like David Grush. I'm talking about people potentially like David Fravor. I'm talking about people like Jake Barber. I'm talking about scientists like Leo Zillard. Imagine if Leo Zillard didn't know that the Manhattan Project was going on, or Jack Raper, a journalist who broke his story.

These people all think that they're doing their jobs. I desperately want to know why Jeffrey Epstein knew so much about my work. And I want to know why he was connected to my graduate program. I was in the Harvard Mathematics Department. Jeffrey Epstein was absolutely connected to the Harvard Math Department. I want to know why. How was he connected to that department? You're pushing me to say things I'm not going to say.

But I don't mind. I'm curious. I'm not going to say. But I don't mind. I'm curious. I'm not trying to push you. I understand. But I'm just not going to do it. I'm saying that anybody who wants to. But you say he was connected to the math department. The Harvard Mathematics Department.

How did you know he was connected? You can Google it. You could Google it right now. This is not, I can point at all sorts of stuff that's hidden in plain sight. So I'll take your word for it. And the assertion that I'm picking up on is that Jeffrey Epstein was planted in your world to keep... I'm not saying he's planted. I don't know who he was. I don't know who ran him. He certainly was not a financier in any standard sense.

Really? That was a cover story. Yes. The way that we know Jeffrey Epstein in the UK especially is just this guy who was this rich guy who had this island who brought people there and then did these despicable things there. Disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, that's the story.

Disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. It's called Perseveration. He was a disgraced financier. What kind of a financier, a disgraced one? What was his name? Oh, he was disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. They perseverate that into your mind so that you autocomplete that in your LLM life. Do you believe that that's what Jeffrey Epstein was?

You met him? Yeah. Was he a disgraced financier? He wasn't a financier the day I met him. What was he? He was a weird guy who didn't seem to know a lot about currency trading. Claiming to run a multi-billion dollar FX hedge fund. When you say a weird guy, what made him weird?

Same stuff I've said on Chris Williams. I'm not going to go back through that. My point is you're getting a different interview, right? Mm-hmm. So what I'm trying to get at is Jeffrey Epstein knew a tremendous amount about my work when nobody knew anything about my work And he had a pipeline into me that I didn't understand which is that he was connected to my graduate program And you can check out the conference called exploring gravity program. And you can check out the conference called Exploring Gravity. And hosted physical workshop called Confronting Gravity. Confronting Gravity, that's right.

In March 2006. Yeah, what is Jeffrey Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein is very focused on gravity. Was it a gravity conference? Yeah. It was about gravity? Yeah. What the fuck was he doing talking about bloody gravity if he's a financier? It was very important to get Nobel laureates and some of the smartest people on Earth to

come to the Virgin Islands and talk about gravity. Stephen Hawking was there, David Gross was there, Lawrence Krauss was there, Lisa Randall was there, right before his conviction. And I'm telling you, he was very focused on the Harvard math department, and he knew all about me in ways that he wasn't supposed to. I have to be clear. I have to be clear on my understanding of what you're saying from what I understood. And you can say, Steve, I'm not going to answer that, whatever.

But I just have to, because you've opened up a curiosity hole in my mind. So let me try and fill it. Even if it's the conversation I'm curious about. I'll just evade you if you. Fine. Fine, you're within the right to evade me. Wonderful.

And I hold the right to ask, which is... So, what I'm hearing is you believe, and I'm just going to say it how I think it, is what I'm hearing is you believe that Jeffrey Epstein was not a financier. He was planted in some way to interfere... He was a construct, is what I said. He was a construct. In some way to mess with the progression of physics. Jeffrey Epstein, apparently, I think some, I'll tell you what I said.

When I met him, when the meeting was over, I immediately called my wife. And I said, I have just met a construct. She said, what do you mean? I said, this person is not who they claim to be. Somebody has constructed this human being to be something that they are not, which is a hedge fund genius.

Somebody who could understand the euro in the end like nobody else, bullshit, not true. I believe that whoever constructed Jeffrey Epstein was running multiple different programs through the same thing, having put in a large initial investment. It wasn't about one thing. If you build a mall, you don't just have clothing stores in the mall. You have a food court in the mall. You have jewelry in the mall.

You have all sorts of different things in the mall. Jeffrey Epstein was a construct of something that was running multiple things. One of those things was science. And I don't think that the science and the pedophilia were necessarily in the same bucket. He was funding all sorts of people. I don't think everybody at that—you know, part of the problem with calling his plane the Lolita Express and calling his island Pedophile Island is that you just can't see

all the different things that were going through this guy. I don't think almost any of those scientists are exposed, you know, maybe a few of them, but very few of them, to anything really horrible. I think he was trying to keep a periscope on everything that was interesting. And I think that his girlfriend's father, Robert Maxwell, was all through scientific publishing. And I think Pergamon Press was in part a control mechanism for making sure that

revolutionary discoveries were taking place within a framework. Anybody can look, you can write a substack article and you can hit post. And suddenly the world has access to your substack article. That is a nightmare. What if somebody posts, you know, weaponized anthrax? What if they do the equivalent of saying, what if there's a neutral proton? So you think he was controlling science?

I think that Robert Maxwell was in part trying to control science. I think Jeffrey Epstein was in part trying to fund science, trying to control it. I don't really know. Again, part of the problem with why conspiracy theorists have a bad name is that they're not content to live in ignorance. And I am. I know something is really off with this story.

If you look at me saying things like, you don't know whether Biden is going to make it to November. Ha ha ha, Eric, what an idiot, blah, blah, blah. Okay? Then he has a debate. He doesn't make it to November. I'm not Nostradamus. I'm just dumb enough to say something in public that makes sense.

Let me say something in public that makes sense. Let me say something in public that makes sense. Our national security people suck at their jobs. The people who are in charge of the Department of Energy, which is masking the Department of Physics, which is masking the Department of Nuclear Weapons, right? The Atomic Energy Acts, which are really about atomic weaponry, recast as atoms for peace or who knows what. Jeffrey Epstein, who is not a disgraced financier.

The newspapers that have always had a national interest component and have liaisons so that they can work with the CIA and the State Department and they do each other's bidding and scratch each other. This whole network is what I've called managed reality. We live in managed reality. We are all in some version of the Truman Show. And you can look at it. You can Google it.

I can give you a million search terms. And every time I give a million search terms, you'll watch my reputation get torn apart. Are you going to blame me that you didn't know what the whole of society approach is because you didn't know that Daniel Inouye Center for Security in the Pacific came up with an idea for soft fascism to fight hybrid wars? You didn't know what hybrid warfare is? Look at my talk at ARC, Jordan Peterson's group, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's at almost two million views. And why is it? Because people are saying, I didn't

know these terms. Did you know what the human terrain project is? Do you know, do you know about human terrain? You're a mountain, I'm a valley. And instead of war planners figuring out how do we use that valley to capture that mountain top, because it gives us an eagle's nest, you know, to snipe from or whatever, they say, okay, this is the second most powerful podcast in the world, second to Joe Rogan. How do we capture him? Fuck. Leave me alone, please.

No, but that's what I'm trying to say. You're human terrain. Yeah. When the human terrain wakes up and says, wait a minute, I'm human terrain? Well, my feeling is, if you don't want me to talk about this on a podcast, then keep your terms separate. Nobody knew the term pre-bunked malinformation. Do you know what pre-bunked malinformation is? Malinformation is information we don't want to get out.

Technically, people try to pretend that it's information that will be misinterpreted, but really it's real stuff that is deleterious to the narratives that we're trying to push forward and what we're trying to do. And pre-bunked means discredited. So we know it debunked. We have to debunk disinformation. We get that.

But you didn't know that we had to pre-bunk malinformation, which is we have to destroy truth tellers. What do you think that means for people like me as podcasters? You know, cause we're doing these long form conversations. I take a snap back. You'll say that was a really interesting talk. And then you'll have somebody else on who'll be talking about the importance of melatonin and how we don't understand the role of sleep. And they'll have somebody else, you know, on who will be talking about how do you do a clothing brand from scratch

and turn it into a billion dollar unicorn. You're not going to stay here on this topic. This is your time with me, and it'll have some effect, and it'll start to fade. And that's what this is. I'd love to be doing my podcast. I just don't know how to do it safely. I want to talk about taking our lives back from the intelligence community. I want to talk about taking our lives back from Silicon Valley, even though those people

are my friends. I want to talk about taking my life back from the phone, from despair, from not having a future. I want to talk about having a glorious existence that is not mediated by morons who sit inside the beltway and play with large budgets and hurt people, particularly really good people who are good at their job, who are trying to figure out how to advance humankind, their family, the national interest, and get foul.

I did not ask for Jeffrey Epstein to fall into my life. I met him once, but it was enough to know holy cow, the Harvard math department can't be what I think it is. Why was he there? I didn't even know, I never heard his name when I was there. Is that why you met him in Harvard? No, no, no, no. I think very powerful people at JP Morgan told me I needed to meet him. He didn't want to talk about finance. He wanted to talk about science.

You can't do your podcast safely. My employer was a special informant to the FBI. He's like one of my closest friends. I'm not going to say who it is. Your employer? Yeah, and one of my closest friends. I live under a physics, man. I'm really, really good at it. You know? And if we have an idea that we shouldn't do physics in public,

I would like to have a call from somebody inside. Hey, Eric, we need you to come in. Okay, great. What's up? But I didn't use your resources. I didn't use your grants. Nobody ever informed me. My god, nobody ever informed me about restricted data.

How many people on Earth know that there's a doctrine that says physicists don't have free speech? We can execute you for doing your job. It's never been tested in the courts, and I hope that the Supreme Court will not allow that. But if we have a problem that is so serious in theoretical physics that it needs the world's largest exemption from free speech, we need to amend the Constitution. You can't just do this as a sneak attack where you reserve the right casually to amend the Constitution. You can't just do this as a sneak attack, where you reserve the right casually to hook the 1917 Espionage Act up against the 1946 and 54 Atomic Energy Act.

I've canvassed my physics colleagues. One of the memes against me, which is very funny, is that no physicists take me seriously when I'm in their offices all the time. I just don't know what my life is. And with this latest advent of war in the Middle East, are you really going to pretend that if you can Google all of these things that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm looking to have a conversation with my own government. I'm looking to have a conversation about theoretical physics.

I can do it quietly, but I have rights, and I do not believe that the 1946 and 1954 Atomic Energy Acts are constitutional. Try me. There is no restricted data. You can't do that to an American. And you can't just keep mounting covert influence campaigns. I just spent five days in the physics department. I'm not allowed to say that I was five days in the physics department as a visitor. I gave a talk, I'm not allowed to say that I was five days in the physics department as a visitor.

I gave a talk, I'm not allowed to say that I gave a talk. I don't know what this is. And I'm tired of it, you know, it's just like. If you're managing the Middle East this badly, if you're managing physics this badly, if you're managing the national economy this badly, if you screwed up COVID this badly by getting inside of the Lancet and nature, peer review is this fake thing that supposedly stretches back to the founding of the Royal Society and it's very clear from the scholarship around it that it comes out of a period between 1965 and 1975 initiated by the Medicare Act predicated on the need for editors for the

journal expansion founded by Pergamon Press and Robert Maxwell. By 1975, there's a giant battle between the NSF and both fiscal and cultural conservatives against something called M.A.N., a course of study, or MACOS, where peer review was born in a Utah clinic, came out of the medical literature because the federal government in 1965 at the Medicare Act picked up the need to pay for so many medical procedures. They wanted to say, why are we assigning this many medical procedures? The doctors circled the wagons and said, we will peer review each other. Then by 1975, the NSF was under the microscope,

and they used peer review as a self-defense of last resort to say we will be reviewing each other. Peer review is a myth. The scholarship is clear as day. I can't keep going on the world's largest podcasts, saying everything that can be Googled and figured out and just constantly have as my reward that the government refuses to have a conversation with me and sends its gaggle of idiots to harass me.

You think it's doing that? It's sending a gaggle of it? Yes, I do. I think that some of them are actual idiots who just enjoy causing problems, but I think more than anything, we have a real problem. Science is too powerful. If you wanted to just cut to the ultimate core of this, if four amino acids can shut down planet Earth, if what is it, a nine-page paper solving the double-spend problem can create a new currency not backed by violence but backed by mathematics, if the concept of an inner product in a large vector space generates something you can't

tell isn't a human being in 2017, do you have any idea what the power of the human mind is at this point? Linear algebra can create something that you would fall in love with. It can create the most beautiful music you can imagine, or it can animate a photo of a dead relative so that you can actually have the experience of having some video of you with a great grandparent you can't even remember. Science is the most amazing, powerful, crazy stuff possible. And we spend a fortune trying to convince people that

scientists are worthless, that scientists are incapable, and in large measure they've convinced the scientists themselves. My colleagues, the supposed physicists, will spend their entire lives pretending to do physics and retire without ever having actually done any. In this physics department I was just in, it's been a long time since I've spent that long as a visitor. The top people in this physics department professed that they had no interest in the physical world, that they only cared about the mathematics that they were doing. I just thought, you're in a theoretical physics group,

and you profess openly that you have no interest whatsoever in the physical world. Well done. I don't know who you were, I don't know how you did it, but it took you four decades to get the physicist to stop caring about the physical world. Somehow what we did is we stopped the world's most powerful and the world's most important group from making progress. And why Elon Musk is not out here saving this by just throwing a few billion at it. Elon, if you're out there, it's add Astra, yes or no. Mars is a stopgap message. Do you want to go to the stars?

Is there something we don't know? To the Department of Energy, do you want to have conversations? Is there anyone at all out here? That's my question. That's why I do the podcasts. And it's, by the way, I'm repeating myself. I've said this before. send lawyers guns and money. There's no one out here. But I will say this, if we could get out of here, you know, in terms of transcendence,

in terms of things that are really exciting, there's nothing that I had greater pleasure at as a father than taking my children for meteor showers. We take the dog, go to a secret location outside of Los Angeles that's quite dark. We just lie under the sky and watch for hours, you know, and look up at the heavens and think, my God, that's a destination. That's some place I could go. I don't think that there's a more inspiring thing than to figure out the infinity of space.

All of these galaxies and the deep field photographs of these space telescopes filled with worlds. And we're stuck here. It's like, it's enough already. Time to go. Let's have some fun. That's really what I'm excited about. Been great to be here. Thank you for being here.

Super fascinating and it's spun my brain in several different directions at the same time. I want to bring it back to the person who's got to the end of this conversation and they're sat at home in their boxer shorts, maybe listening on their iPhone as they fall asleep, wherever they are in the world or on a train or plane or whatever, and allow you to offer them some kind of closing message that might make their life better in some way. It's a broad brief, but I think it's the most important brief, which is, you know, having heard everything we've talked about today, what advice would you give the listener? An actionable piece of advice so that they could live a subjectively better life. The songs of Tom Lehrer are pretty terrific, as are the operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan. You might want to explore the Azores as well as the Indonesian archipelago.

Indonesian is one of the easiest languages to learn because it's been denuded of most of the complexity that screw up people who have a hard time learning other languages. Buy a poster of tropical fruit and make sure that you visit every single one on that poster before it's time for lights out. Consider Bach's B minor mass and the cello suites particularly by Pablo Casals and take a serious listen to Eva Cassidy singing Stormy Monday in an album called Live from Blues Alley to see if you really know how to feel things. I think Professor Longhair's Big Chief is one of the most brilliant pieces of piano music.

It's absolutely inspiring. And if you really like that, James Carroll Booker III has an album called The Resurrection of the Bayou Maharaja. Seriously think about visiting the island of St. Helena in the South Atlantic. Take a look at Kurt Jymungle's channel. He's doing amazing stuff being done by no one else on Earth.

I think that Chris Buck is really amazing, and if you think that Crossroads is good, have a listen to his version of Miss You by the Rolling Stones. An incredible groove, and I didn't really appreciate it the first time I heard it. I think that the people making spark amps at Positive Grid and the my friends at Neural DSP with the quad cortex will blow your mind with how much great audio equipment you can make. You can get a

good electric guitar for a few hundred bucks thanks to advances in China. Put it into an open tuning and buy yourself a slider, just slide a glass along it, and you'll be able to play most songs that you care about within a minute or two, maybe three, because you only need three chords. Get married. It may not work out. It may be miserable. Have some kids. There's nothing else great to do on this planet. At least give it a try. And if your parents won't pressure you to do it, I'm happy to do it.

Try to keep this thing going. Try to keep this thing going. Try to dream big about legacy. Don't feel embarrassed about wanting to conquer the world or leave a permanent stain. Get out of this moment where everybody's worried about narcissism and drama. Listen for meteor showers. They're announced regularly. Nobody actually does anything about them.

And it's worth inconveniencing yourself with people you love and take the dog. Really seriously think about whether you want to pile on when you see what is almost certainly a federal or other campaign targeting people who are standing up for you, whether they're trying to figure out where COVID came from, trying to figure out who was behind Jeffrey Epstein. Recognize that almost everything you've been taught to do in terms of hating Israel is part of somebody's campaign.

Out of Qatar, the situation in Gaza is incredibly dire. Don't stop caring about the people who are living under that. Recognize that the Persians are not the mullahs. Get involved. Wish your country's leadership well, even if you didn't vote for them and you think that they're horrible people. They've got very hard work to do. Be good to each other, try.

It's a grand adventure. And make sure you have some fun before it's lights out. That's it. We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that was left for you. I love this question. What is the problem that you are doing the most mental gymnastics to avoid?

Pass. No, I know the answer. It's not appropriate for your audience. One of the things about being in the hot seat on podcasts is that it is not right to force anyone to respond to a question. I know how to falsify an answer to that, and I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to share the answer to that question because it's not appropriate. But it's to a question. I know how to falsify an answer to that, and I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to share the answer to that question, because it's not appropriate. But it's a great question.

Feel free to leave it for someone else, because it doesn't seem fair. Whoever you were, thank you for the question. Obviously, my reaction was just tremendous curiosity, which would be a natural reaction to what you just said. Thank you for a great interview. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you.

It's so unbelievably fascinating. And you've given me so much. Unfortunately, you've given me a lot of answers, but you've given me even more questions. And maybe that's the product of a good conversation. You live in LA. We'll do it again. Thank you so much for your time.

I really appreciate you. We appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks. We launched these conversation cards, and they sold out. And we launched them again, and they sold out again. We launched them again, and they sold out. And we launched them again and they sold out again. We launched them again and they sold out again. Because people love playing these with colleagues at work,

with friends at home, and also with family. And we've also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts. Every single time a guest comes on the diary of a CEO, they leave a question for the next guest in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world, and they've left all of these questions in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world and they've left all of these questions in the diary.

And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth. One being a starter question and level three, if you look on the back here, this is a level three, becomes a much deeper question that builds even more connection. If you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code, you can see who answered the card

and watch the video of them answering it in real time. So if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards, go to thediary.com or look at the link in the description below. Thanks for watching!