The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Former CIA Spies: "The CIA Tried To Ban This Story!" We're Leaving The US by 2030!

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Starting point is 00:01:20 Your wife is here today, and you've never told this story before, have you? No. And your curiosity right now is a major issue with CIA because they do. don't want the world to know who those people are. It's a dangerous game. Well, obviously, my research team tried to figure out who it was. So was this the mall? Married CIA spies, Andrew and Ghi Bustamante, were tasked with unraveling one of the greatest intelligence operations in modern history.

Starting point is 00:01:48 Their untold story shows you how to build trust, manipulate, and thrive under pressure. What actually happened? A foreign ally contacted CIA and said, You have somebody inside your organization sharing information on operations, officers, assets to an enemy country. They deployed us to the country and crafted new identities, new aliases, so that we could build new sources of intelligence and try to find a mole. And we were really successful in doing that. Nobody felt like they were in imminent danger, but then that changed.

Starting point is 00:02:19 My presence in the enemy country became known. I called GE and said, I'm coming home early. And from that, I knew that something was wrong. Because it is very real that you can be disappeared by a foreign adversary. Or worse, being captured. And the president can plausibly deny that you're CIA. So I had to try to escape the country. But everything went wrong.

Starting point is 00:02:39 And what happens next? A horrible story. So. This is the first time I'm setting you at home a challenge when you listen to this episode. Can you figure out which country Andrew and Ghee were undercut. covering as spies from what they say, but also our team here figured out that the mole in the CIA was one of these three people. Can you figure out from what they say which person was the mole? It might make sense for you at this moment to screenshot these three faces and the details

Starting point is 00:03:17 below so you can remember their profiles. And by the end of the conversation, I want you to comment below which country you thought Andrew was undercovering as a spy and what Which one of these people was the mole within the CIA? Let's do this. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

Starting point is 00:03:40 It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

Starting point is 00:03:59 I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:04:16 Andrew, you've never told this story before, have you? No. I have never told the story of my own operating. background. It's been something that CIA has forbidden for a long time. And what's written in this book has taken you a long time to get approved by the CIA? Correct. So all CIA officers sign a lifetime secrecy agreement. And that secrecy agreement

Starting point is 00:04:41 gives CIA the right to approve or disapprove any operational elements of our background that are still classified and that fit under this very kind of narrow rubric of sources and methods, sources and methods of active intelligence collection. Because of my time at CIA, my work at CIA, and the sensitivity of that work, I just kind of assumed I would never be able to talk about it. And then all that changed with the first Trump administration. What was the CIA's response when you said that you wanted to talk about what you're going to talk about today? Well, that's what's interesting. They had two different responses. When I first submitted the request in 2019 to CIA to write about my operational background, we went through

Starting point is 00:05:24 kind of some normal bureaucratic back and forth, and they ultimately said, yes, you can write about it in detail. And then in 2021, when we submitted the manuscript and it was complete, the world started to change. In 2022, multiple major issues erupted between major adversaries of the United States, and CIA came back and removed their previous permission. They basically said that in light of current geopolitics, everything in the book was now reclassified. How did you get the CIA to change their mind so that you could release this book and talk about what you're going to talk about today? We engaged with an attorney, one of the top attorneys, in the space of classified information and publishing information. So the attorney believed that because of the effort that my wife and I had put into the book, CIA would back off.

Starting point is 00:06:10 And ultimately that is what they did. When we threatened them with a First Amendment lawsuit, they came back and said, we don't want to go down that road. We think we can collaborate on this. We'll approve your book and you can move forward. Why do you think they didn't want you to publish this book and this story to get out? When this story hits the airwaves, it's going to transform people's opinion about CIA in two big ways. First, they'll understand that CIA is not what the movies portray it to be. It's not superhuman spies who go out there like James Bond or Jason Bourne, who are one man against the world. That's not how espionage works. Espionage is a team sport.

Starting point is 00:06:46 You have wins, you have losses. The second thing is they'll actually start to understand the depths to which, you know, CIA will dive to collect intelligence that protects Americans. Inside this book, we talk about a mole that actually penetrated CIA that CIA is never acknowledged. Inside this book, we talk about new tactics that CIA learned from terrorism and then used against our own most strategic adversaries. I don't think people recognize that CIA is morally ambivalent to how it executes espionage operations. The goal is to keep Americans safe. When you say in this book, you disclosed that there was a mole within the CIA.

Starting point is 00:07:24 What does that mean for someone that doesn't know what a mole in the CIA is? One of the worst things that can happen to an intelligence service is that one of its own officers becomes a spy for a foreign adversary. That is what I'm referring to when I talk about a mole. And you were involved in that operation to find the mole within the CIA? Correct. More specifically, my wife and I were included in an operation to kind of ferret out the mole, to bait and tempt the mole to make a mistake so that the mole could be found and disclosed.

Starting point is 00:07:58 And your wife is here today. Correct. And we're going to bring her in and talk to her as well. But for anyone that doesn't know your backstory, which would be pretty remarkable seeing as you've been on this channel now a few times, could you give me a whistlestock tour of your professional background up until the point that you met Ji? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm from a rural place in Pennsylvania, was like the only brown kid in a white high school.

Starting point is 00:08:20 But I ended up going to a military academy. I went to the Air Force Academy. And from the Air Force Academy, I go into the Air Force. The Air Force teaches me how to fly. They teach me a foreign language. And then they teach me about nuclear weapons and nuclear missiles. And I serve as a nuclear missile officer in the Air Force. So CIA picked me up.

Starting point is 00:08:37 And in my first day on the job in CIA, the day that I met my wife. She was sitting in the back of the classroom. I, of course, worked my way to the front of the classroom. And from there, our training just kind of over. overlapped and we became close. Well, Ghi is here, so I'd like to hear her version of events. Was there any inconsistency in the story he told?

Starting point is 00:09:01 What was your perspective? There's always another perspective. And are you allowed to date in the CIA? Oh, yeah. It's encouraged because it's really hard when you're keeping so many secrets to date somebody outside of the CIA and not be able to tell it. Because we had friends who did that, who did that. you have to keep your whole life secret. So you're lying to them about where you're going and what you do. Day to day.

Starting point is 00:09:24 Day, every single day. So you're building a relationship and lying all the time. And it's really difficult. So if you date within the CIA, you know, if you're in different divisions or whatever, like maybe you can't talk about everything in detail, but you at least know what's going on. You know why somebody's going TDI or where they're going for a training session or... We can explain to each other, like, hey, I'm going to go work with. the Spanish. I'm going to go work with the Canadians. But when you're dating somebody on the

Starting point is 00:09:54 outside, you can't say those things. So it becomes, I'm going on a business meeting. I'm going on a trip. Crazy. And we've had many friends who have had relationships explode or melt down because the partner starts to ask very logical questions. We had one good friend of ours who was an outsider who was dating one of our good friends who was an insider. And she pulled me aside one day and she was like, you know, he goes on all these business trips, but he never takes any suits. She's like, I think he's cheating on me. And I was like, no, he's actually going to a tactical training course

Starting point is 00:10:25 where you don't need to wear anything except BDU's, but I can see your concerns. So you have to walk your, like, there's a lot of walking people off a cliff because they start to come to the wrong conclusion about what their actual partner is doing. Cheehee, what's your journey into the CIA? Mine was kind of an unexpected journey

Starting point is 00:10:43 because I went into social work, working with survivors of torture from other countries, with refugees, with asylees. But before I got that job, I'd actually, I'd spent my entire last year of grad school going to job fairs. And I wanted, what I really wanted was to work for the federal government for, like, the larger mission for the United States, for like the people of the United States. But then nobody was calling me back. And I was like, okay, I'll just submit an application, like an online application to CIA, which I thought was funny. And then a few months later, I got a call back. She was like, come to the information session.

Starting point is 00:11:15 And so I went in like a random hotel with these like nondescript signs outside and you walk in and you're like, I don't know if I'm in the right place. And then they close the door and they're like, welcome to the CIA recruiting session. And you're like, oh, this is so bizarre. Did they tell you what your role is? Because I know there's several different roles in the CIA. Targeters began during the war on terror and because what they initially did was target individuals for capture or kill for the molecular. Okay, so what does that mean? They targeted people for capture or kill for the military. So you would find the person to capture or kill in a foreign country? Yes. And so because, you know, everybody else is doing their job of, you know, logistics or weapons or fighting or strategy. So the targeted position was really important because it takes time to go through all this data to piece together this puzzle. of who is important, who is important to capture, who's important to kill, and how do you get to them?

Starting point is 00:12:21 The how do you get to them is the piece that, like, everybody else wants to know, but they don't really have time to do that and their other job. So they carved out this targeter role, so one person can do all this research and identify. And the terrorists were really fascinating because they had how their organizations were structured. And so you really needed somebody who could look, I mean, it's like a, like targeting the mafia, right? Like, everybody has a role. Like, there's a big organization.

Starting point is 00:12:50 Everybody has a role. It is in your favor if you're going after them to find out who, who's who. Who's who? Who's connected to who? How can you get to different people? Because you're never going to be able to just get the top person right away. So how do you get there, right? And you became a targeter.

Starting point is 00:13:08 Yes. So your job was to figure out who to capture and kill. Or capture or. Or kill. And what was your role in the CIA? How is your role different? Can you explain it for a layman? Yeah, so where Ghi was trying to find the individuals that were of interest,

Starting point is 00:13:24 my job was to learn what to do after a targeter identified those individuals. How do you actually meet the person? How do you befriend the person? How do you win their trust? How do you collect their secrets? What's known as a field officer, an operations officer, a case officer. Those are the different terminologies that we use internally. But you essentially have, every case is kind of handed over from person to person.

Starting point is 00:13:46 So raw information, sometimes open source information is handed to a targeter who creates a profile, a dossier, a targeting package, who hands it to an operations officer who goes out and actually makes that first contact. And then when first contact is made, we pass all the information back, and it goes back to all the same people to build the next package for the next target. So Ghi would identify the individual, and then your job was to, fly overseas, go undercover, and make first contact with that individual to extract intelligence from them? And not at first. By the time that CIA started utilizing us as a tandem couple, a tandem couple is a term that means a married, truly married, CIA trained couple. When we started becoming a tandem couple, that's how we were a one-two punch for operations. Prior to that,

Starting point is 00:14:34 we were in separate offices and separate divisions doing separate work. So we got along and we were complimentary because I understood the challenges of her job, and she understood the challenges of my job, which made both of us better working with our counterparts in our different offices. So where does this story begin, Andy? You wrote this book to tell a story. So I'm asking you the question. Usually I'd hazard a guess where to start, but where does this story begin? From my perspective, the story really starts on, I think it was a winter day when we were both called in to a counterintelligence office that was a massive oak table. It was a senior executive leadership type of room. But there were only three people there. It was she, it was me,

Starting point is 00:15:25 and it was the leader of what's known as Falcon House, which is this group of specialists inside of CIA focused on one particular adversary, an adversary that we've had to code name Falcon to maintain confidentiality with CIA. And so Falcon is a country. Basically. Falcon is a country, correct. And that leader revealed to us that they believed there was a penetration, a mole, that was inside of Falcon House, inside of CIA, and that they needed us to agree to do an operation so that the mole will make a mistake here. Because if the mole makes a mistake here, we'll find him. But we can't have you be here, because if you're here, the mole will find you.

Starting point is 00:16:06 And then we don't know what happens if the mole finds you. So we're going to send you across the world to go work in this other country, Falcon being the country, while we here as the experts in Washington, D.C., try to find the mole. And that was privileged information that neither of us as junior officers ever thought we would hear. And I think that, I know for me, I was kind of giddy with excitement, and gee, he was a little bit more apprehensive with, this can't be real. But that was, for me, that's where the story starts, is when these two people, with her anxiety disorder

Starting point is 00:16:39 and me with my kind of lackluster CIA career when we got pulled into this office that was clearly outside of our league and invited to do this operation without that first meeting Shadow Cell would have never happened So from that moment onwards how long was it before you flew to

Starting point is 00:16:58 the foreign country in question and what was your objective when you got to that foreign country so I guess it's like a sub-objective to find the mole and there was another main objective which was going to help find the mall? You got to, I mean, you're using great terminology. There were primary objectives and secondary objectives.

Starting point is 00:17:17 And the primary objective was to build a new set of reporting assets, a new source of intelligence, several new sources of intelligence, in Falcon the actual country. And to help you frame what Falcon is, there's only a handful of countries that are true stark adversaries to the U.S. United States. Every one of those countries has limited to no diplomatic relationship with the

Starting point is 00:17:40 United States. That's how hostile they are. Any one of those countries could be Falcon. The reason that we have to codename the country is because CIA, in today's geopolitical world, has demanded we don't disclose the name of the country. So we call it Falcon. What are the United States adversaries where we don't have any relationship with them? There's also like North Korea. There's Russia, there's Iran, we know of. Are there any others? Cuba. Cuba. Yeah, there's, and those are, there's a mix there of countries that we do have a relationship with, but it's not a warm relationship, versus countries we have no relationship with. So we have no relationship with North Korea. We have a cold relationship with Russia, right? We have a cold relationship with China. We have

Starting point is 00:18:25 no relationship with Iran. So they're all considered hard targets, but of various levels. Okay. So the objective is the primary objective is to build a new team in this country, but the sub-objective is in building the team, you're going to find out hopefully who the mole is because the mole is going to make a mistake. The mole's going to try to find us, because the mole's job is to prevent CIA from collecting secrets about Falcon, because the mole is working for Falcon intelligence. The mole is working for that country. Right. The mole is part of the CIA, but working for the adversarial country. Bingo, which is the worst combination you can have. So some of the most famous moles in history are Aldra Games. Alder Games was a CIA

Starting point is 00:19:10 penetration that worked for the Russians. Robert Hansen, Robert Hansen was an FBI penetration that worked for the Russians. So these are famous moles in history. We were essentially being told that these earth-shattering 1990s-era moles were still relevant, but now in 2000, 10-ish, there was a new one that had made its way into CIA. And that's a big deal. So it was a very exciting reveal for me because it meant that we were not just doing something that was relevant and interesting inside of CIA. We're doing something that is quite possibly the most important work that can be done inside CIA at this moment in time. How did the CIA know there was a mall? There's a lot of complexity there that is part of why they didn't want us to write this book.

Starting point is 00:19:59 But what they have allowed us to disclose is that a foreign ally contacted CIA and said, we have collected intelligence that suggests you have a mole. You have somebody inside your organization who's a turncoat, a spy for somebody else. So a foreign ally warned CIA. Otherwise, CIA would have had no idea. Okay. And foreign allies are people like the United Kingdom? Canada.

Starting point is 00:20:26 Canada. Australia. Australia. Yeah. So you can imagine the disruption that that would make. Not only did we, did CIA proper not know they had a mole. It took an ally to tell us. And then when the ally told us, we have to assume that the ally is sharing as much biographical detail as possible. So they're telling you the name. Hey, Bob is a spy in your organization. But now that CIA officer is an American citizen, protected by American rights and privileges. And CIA obviously has no information to show that that person's a spy, except for the word of some foreign ally, which is still, in the eyes of the U.S. government, a foreigner is a foreigner, ally or not. So even if it is the UK or Canadians telling us so-and-so is a spy, until we have our own body of evidence, we can't prosecute. That person can't be fired. That person can't be discharged. That person can't be sued. That person can't be arrested. So now CIA has this mess where they are

Starting point is 00:21:24 actively losing information, actively losing Intel. Because of this mole. Because of a mole. But they can't take any action because they have to now build a legal case against the mole to prove that that person's actually breaking the law. So the ally that calls the CIA and says you've got a mole in your ranks, they named the person? Most likely.

Starting point is 00:21:46 Most likely they would have never made the notification without also sharing the name, which is a courtesy we do to others as well. If we come across information that we know an MI6 officer has been compromised or a Canadian CSIS officer has been compromised or an ASIS officer in Australia, we will share as many biographical details as possible. And did you share the name when you were called into the room that day, did they share the name with you? No. It's hard for people to wrap their minds around the culture at CIA. And I get it because how do you wrap your mind around an organization you don't know? and the only insight is from movies.

Starting point is 00:22:22 So culturally CIA is a group of people who value secrets and that need to know is very important inside those walls. It's just something we toss around like movie jargon outside. But inside CIA needs to know is very, very real. And you are only briefed to the minimum that you need to know. So inside of this tiny group of spy hunters, which is known as the counter-espionage group, CEG. Inside this very small group, they have the need to know basically everything. And then as you go

Starting point is 00:22:56 out in rings from that group, they reduce the information they share. So they might know the name, but then when they share it to the next ring, they just say, hey, there's an officer who's in this office. And then it goes to the next ring. There's an officer in this division. And it goes to the next ring. So the people talking to us as senior leaders, the people talking to us knew the minimum we needed to know was that we were going to build new operations, but we were also are going to be most likely targeted by a known threat inside CIA. That was why it mattered to us. Interestingly, that decision is why we had a First Amendment case with this book at all.

Starting point is 00:23:30 Because CIA was knowingly putting our lives in danger of a foreign adversary by intentionally creating operations that would tempt that mole to disclose our identities. That was one of the things I was thinking when I was reading the book is you knew that you were being sent to an adversarial country and you also, had the knowledge that working amongst you was a mole who was revealing secrets about the CIA and potentially yourselves to that foreign country. Correct. So that foreign country could have could have killed you. Absolutely. And that's the second kind of cultural element that people don't understand about CIA. You don't really turn down an operation. If you're invited

Starting point is 00:24:14 to take part in an operation, you have the right to say, No. But if you say no, you're committing career suicide. Jehi, and anybody who reads the book, we'll find this out. Jehi was a stellar officer on a phenomenal trajectory doing incredible things, kind of really charting the course for what targeters have become today. For me, I proved to be a not very good case officer. And if there was anything I was really hoping for, it was a second chance. So when we were pulled into this meeting and they said, hey, here's,

Starting point is 00:24:48 this exciting opportunity, here's an operation that we're literally inviting you into this executive suite to invite you to this operation. And we're going to put you together and we need you to do this. That's not, that's not a situation that I was going to say no to. I think you considered saying no. But for me, it was, it was a, they knew me well enough to know I was not going to turn that down. Yeah, I mean, I think when you have anxiety, you consider saying no to everything. It's like you're always thinking about the risk, but I think that. What was the risk that thinking about? It is very real that you can be disappeared by a foreign adversary, that you can be, you know, killed by them with no explanation, that you can be just put in jail and then you never

Starting point is 00:25:30 get out because the government's not necessarily going to come to your aid. And if they do, it still might be 20 years before you're out of their prison. Every sworn officer has plausible deniability, meaning the president can plausibly deny that you don't belong to whatever organization you are claiming to belong to. So a CIA officer arrested in a Russian prison can avoid all questioning and say, hold on guys, I'm actually CIA, you caught me, good job. Now please send me home.

Starting point is 00:26:00 Don't have a diplomatic incident. The president has the right to say that person is not CIA. That person has never worked for me. I don't know who that person is. Their American passport might be verified, but they are legally in your possession of, you know, legal requirements.

Starting point is 00:26:20 So we don't really know who they are. So just to clarify, then, you were being told you were going to be flown both of you to a foreign country, an adversarial foreign country, and you were told that there was a mole amongst your ranks that was feeding information to the foreign country that you were being flown to. So they actually stationed us in a neighboring country

Starting point is 00:26:43 that was friendly. but we knew that Andy and anybody we worked with would have to go into Falcon. So they flew us to a country. Falcon being the adversarial country. The adversary of our country. So we actually lived in a third country called Wolf, but we were operating in both Wolf and and Falcon. So the danger was still there.

Starting point is 00:27:03 And then that's when Jehe's target her mind set in, and that's when she started thinking through, well, how could our operation be reverse engineered by Falcon and actually find us. And if we can think like the enemy, we can stay one step ahead of the enemy. So the whole idea of going to Wolf and building our team from the very beginning, Geehee started to architect how we could do that in a way that would foil our aggressors from being able to even discover our existence. And what was the objective when you, so you've got this sub-objective, which I understand, which is to find the mole. But the main objective is just to spy as usual and collect information on this adversarial country? Yes and no. The,

Starting point is 00:27:44 The main objective was to collect information, but the spying as usual is the part that was a no. CIA specifically told us they didn't want us to do the standard spy MO. Spying has really been the same since the days of Egypt, the ancient Egypt, right? You find somebody who gives you information about something that they have access to, and that's it, and that's spying. Then you turn it into a report, and you pass it up to somebody who reads it, and they make a decision. They wanted a new kind of mouse track. They wanted a new way of doing espionage. And when they deployed us to the friendly country, that was their only request was whatever you do there, coordinate it with the local leadership, and then don't tell us, because we have to make sure that the mole doesn't learn what you're doing.

Starting point is 00:28:31 That's going to be how we tempt the mole to start probing around and asking questions that are outside of the norm. That's how we're going to reverse engineer this and find the mole. So we need you to go do something new, and we need it not to be standard. And don't tell us. And don't tell us, but tell your leadership in the friendly country. Your CIA leadership in the friendly country? Correct. Yes.

Starting point is 00:28:52 Okay. And he's going to tell or she's going to tell them? No. So it's completely compartmentalized. Need to know. Right. Because if we kept all of our operations centered in Wolf, then in our friendly country, then the mole would never know what we were doing.

Starting point is 00:29:12 So we would be gathering intelligence, which would then be further compartmentalized to maybe a specific office where like one or two people at headquarters might know about one particular operation. And then one or two people might know about another operation. But it's because not all of Falcon House would know, the mole would not have access to any of these new intelligence sources. And that's what was really important. That's why they wanted us to rebuild because he currently had access to all of the legacy intelligence. sources. And so if he wanted to, you know, pass any information to Falcon from all of our legacy sources, he could. But if he doesn't have access to our new sources, he can't pass any of that new information on. And now here we are, we're able to gather more intelligence

Starting point is 00:29:57 and then hopefully, if we're lucky, we, you know, we strike gold on finding out who he is or who he's working with or other things. But yeah, compartmentalization is the key. So we were really very, you know, kind of siloed in Wolf. I'm trying to understand how you doing what you were doing was going to help the CIA discover who the mole was. One of the things in double agent operations, which is what you're talking about when you talk about a mole or penetration, a double agent, meaning I'm a sworn officer of CIA, but then I've also agreed to work with the Russians, the Chinese, the North Koreans, the Cubans, whatever. That's a double, a double agent. double agent operations are very difficult to maintain long term because if my information isn't relevant to my foreign adversary anymore, if I'm collecting secrets on Cuba, but I'm being paid by the Russians, the Russians may not care that I keep collecting secrets on Cuba, so they might cut me off. And then all of a sudden, I'm a double agent culpable of crime, but without protection from another country.

Starting point is 00:31:03 So when you think of your Edward Snowden's, when you think of some of your famous turncoats from the United States, they flee to the country that they were working for, ultimately. So if you don't have that escape path, then it becomes very, very stressful and scary for a double agent. So what CIA was counting on is the mole who was reporting our secrets to Falcon, if we could create new operations and that mole didn't have access to those new operations, then the mole would start to stretch. They would start to make mistakes.

Starting point is 00:31:38 ask questions they shouldn't ask, steal information, try to hack onto systems they shouldn't get on to. And that's all stuff that CIA can use to build a legal case to arrest that person. But without knowing, without having something that that person has to stretch to collect, they're not going to make a mistake. So our job was to create something new so that the mole would make a mistake that CIA could track and that would build a legal case that would allow CIA to arrest an American citizen for espionage. Did the CIA have access to the information the mole was sending back to the enemy country? No. That's one of the most dangerous parts about double agent operations. We often, we have a lot of nicknames, a lot of inside terminology, but we usually call it the keys to the kingdom.

Starting point is 00:32:26 When you have a foreign penetration, you have the keys to everything in that foreign countries, all of their secrets, because you have access to an intelligence officer who can pull anything. anything. So our double agent, our mole, had access to essentially everything related to Falcon that CIA had. So CIA didn't know what he was sharing, what he wasn't sharing, how much he had been sharing, or even how long he had been sharing it. But they suspected he was sharing something. Because there was something that our ally picked up on, something that allowed them to identify the person and communicate it back. So you land in this friendly country next to the enemy country. And do you have to adopt new aliases, new names, new, new stories? Do you have to pretend that you're normal people living a normal life? You do. There's different ways that you can

Starting point is 00:33:18 craft it. So Ghee's job as the targeter was to find our targets in Falcon. A big part of what we had to do when we got to Wolf, our friendly country, was do whatever the leadership there told us to do. So CIA crafted everything for us to land in the friendly country. Once we were in the friendly country, then we had to start crafting new identities, new aliases, so that we could travel out of the friendly country and into Falcon. Into the enemy country. But while living in Falcon, we were, you know, Jeehee and Andrew Bustamante, newlywood couple, where we worked was covered.

Starting point is 00:33:54 When did you work? It's undercover. We still can't disclose it. Yeah. Like as far as this enemy, did you like run a, when you were in the enemy country working, were you like running like a coffee shop? Or is it? Yeah, when going into Falcon, there were different, you had to have a different cover and a different cutout.

Starting point is 00:34:13 And we would use what you're referring to is called commercial cover or commercial activity, meaning we would act as if we were part of commercial business going into and out of the country. But you'd use your normal names? No. No. This is one of the other things that's really fascinating about the book. And one of the reasons that CIA pushback is we get to disclose whole new levels of tradecraft that have never been talked about in previous books. so the trade craft that we use here is something that the Brits actually call dry cleaning and what that means is we would clear our path before we would go into Falcon

Starting point is 00:34:47 so we're in a friendly country and we need to go into a hostile country in order to go from the friendly country to the hostile country you can't go directly because if you go directly the hostile country can track you back to your friendly country and then they can send a team to hurt you if they need to in the friendly country. So instead what you do is you create a cleansing route. So you travel from the friendly country

Starting point is 00:35:11 to a neutral country. And in that neutral country, you'll change identities and then travel into your target country. So now if the hostile country tracks you, they track you back to a neutral country

Starting point is 00:35:23 and they have no idea that you originated from a friendly country. But if you go from a friendly country to a neutral country, when you get to the neutral country, do you need like a new passport and stuff?

Starting point is 00:35:35 Because that neutral country, presumably they don't know that you're spies. Correct. So do you have to have a new passport to then get on a plane to fly into the... Yes. And it's what we would call a passport swap. And there's different ways of doing a swap. You can carry your own swap. You can have somebody meet you to do a swap.

Starting point is 00:35:49 You can have a cache where you hide a swap. But that's the benefit of always using a consistent cleansing route because you can always go back to the same neutral country. And from the hostile country's point of view, every time they track you, you always go back to the same place. So they start to build a pattern of life, what we call a pattern of life, where they believe you're originating from this country, when in fact you're not. So you land in this friendly country, you're making your way into the hostile country.

Starting point is 00:36:20 What was your objective? What were you trying to do in that hostile country? The first thing that we were trying to do was find targets. And then we knew that as we found targets and built targets, we would also need to support the operations against those targets. And there's a logistical element to espionage where you need to have encrypted phones. You need to have satellite phones or SIM cards. You need to have money.

Starting point is 00:36:44 You need to have specialized gifts. Like there's a logistical supply chain that needs to be built. Specialized gifts. So things that are appealing to a target that they may not be able to get themselves. Gold bullion, high-end liquors, child pornography foreign currency whatever they need

Starting point is 00:37:05 your job is to make sure they have a way of getting it child pornography some targets especially in the world of drugs and terrorism and weapons

Starting point is 00:37:16 they feed off of the strangest things so the CIA would supply that pornography in a way we would more like facilitate the transfer some other friendly country might actually be who acquires it.

Starting point is 00:37:32 So, for example, Germany might actually have a raid where they carry out a raid against a pornographer and they have terabytes of porn, right? And then the UK might have a case where they need porn to pay in Iranian. So now they can trade with BND, so that B&D can use this cachet of porn and they can give it to the Brits who give it to the Iranians

Starting point is 00:37:56 and that can be a currency of types. Again, morally ambivalent, the goal is to protect your people at the end of the day, right? So when it comes down to it, that's the same way CIA works. If we're giving gold, if we're giving minted American gold coins to an evil person in North Korea, do we really care if it's keeping Americans safe? There are some people who would say yes, and there are other people who would say, whatever the price is, let's keep American safe. So tell me about what you did then.

Starting point is 00:38:29 So what was your, what did you accomplish while you were there and what was the, you talk in the book about using terrorist tactics to build your operation there? Can you run me through what is it, what it is you accomplished there and the role that both of you played? So I'll start it and I'll let you take it over. But the, the book's title, Shadow Cell, is really about the cell model and the terrorist cell model that we recreated in our friendly country so that we could execute operations against. against our hostile country that mirrored tactics and techniques that terrorists had used to foil Americans for the last 20 years in the global war on terror. So what Ji and I learned is that CIA was not very good at beating terrorists. America was not very good at beating terrorists.

Starting point is 00:39:17 That's why after 20 years of fighting in Afghanistan, we left and we gave it back to the same terrorist group that we went in there to fight. We had learned a lot from fighting that adversary. But we were the only country in the world, world fighting the global war on terror. The Russians, the Iranians, the Chinese, the Cubans, the North Koreans, none of them engaged in the war on terror. So everything we had learned from Al-Qaeda, we were the only ones that learned it. So we found that to be kind of a competitive

Starting point is 00:39:43 advantage. So we started building our operations, modeling our operations off of the way the terrorists structured their cells. And we called our cell in Wolf the shadow cell. And we had to find the people, recruit the people and train the people inside our cell, our actual CIA peers, we had to get them to learn how to run the same model. That's really what the book explains, is how we built that and what those people did, because espionage is not about one superhero overseas. It's about a team of people doing incredible things. And were those people on the ground in the friendly country next to the hostile country? Yes. And so when you recruited these people to build this team, did you recruit them from America

Starting point is 00:40:28 or were you recruiting them within that friendly country? Inside of wolf. Everybody who was in the cell was already working in wolf. And the word cell basically means team. Right, team. So you built this team

Starting point is 00:40:40 in the friendly country next door to the enemy country and this team consisted of how many people? Right. So James was our senior most case officer. Tasha, Luke and Beverly were our second tour case officer. So they were more junior.

Starting point is 00:40:55 That's why they were hungry, but still kind of flexible, whereas James was in, James was at a place in his career where if this didn't work, his career would be tanked. And then Ghee and I were not case officers. We were kind of the, I was the mission planner, if you will, and Ghee was the targeter. And then Diana was our linguist. Will was our tech support. And we had, that was our cell.

Starting point is 00:41:20 That was our little group of people that would sit in the bullpen. Now, it's important to note that none of the, of them, and this was their primary mission, it was our primary mission. For all of them helping us was just something they were doing because they believed that if we were successful, it would be good for them.

Starting point is 00:41:37 They had primary missions to do all sorts of other things. Oh, okay. And were these people locals? They're all Americans, and they're all Americans assigned to Wolf. So they're all American CIA officers, all sworn officers, that are assigned to our friendly

Starting point is 00:41:53 country in various different covers. to do various different primary missions. Okay. And how did you guys like communicate? Did you like meet up for like dinner? Like how does it work? Yeah, I mean, all of our communication and hangouts were in the office because we couldn't really be seen outside together.

Starting point is 00:42:09 We had a, we had what's known as a skiff, a specialized compartmented information facility. So it was a hardened, soundproof office that we could have meetings in. Couldn't the adversarial country like what you're walking in there? in the morning. The adversarial country arguably didn't even know we were in Wolf because every time they tracked anybody's travel, it would take them to a different country. Oh, so you were just people going to an office? Yes. So you could be doing anything in there? Correct. And it's an office and a large office building. So we could really be going anywhere. Okay, fine. So it's hard

Starting point is 00:42:44 to track. So what was your first mission together as a team? Like what were you doing in the enemy country? What was your objective to you were finding, you were working as a targeted to find interesting individuals. And then, Andrew, you were predominantly trying to make contact with those individuals. Sort of. Because I couldn't, as the node of the cell, the node is a term that we're using to say, I was the piece that was exposed to CIA. So the mole, if the mole went hunting, the mole would find me. I was the one that was exposed. Okay. So for me, it was important that I actually didn't meet with any of the targets that we had in Falcon. My job was to go to Falcon, start sourcing the information that she would use to identify those individuals.

Starting point is 00:43:30 Like, what does that mean? So whether it's something stupid like a phone book or a thumb drive, whether you're picking up a dead drop from somebody else. So consider in Falcon, we would have already had other case officers carrying out operations. Yeah. So we might have a case officer who was able to extract information from a military database. And that military database has all the weapons, engineers for Falcons Air Force. That case officer can... That spy. That spy can collect the thumb drive. And then they can put that thumb drive in what's known as a dead drop. A dead drop would be something that you hide anywhere in the country, in a city, wherever else. Like in a bush. Yeah, like in a bush.

Starting point is 00:44:09 I would then go into Falcon and I would go to that dead drop site, the bush. So you'd go into the enemy country. Right. You'd go to the bush. And take the thumb drive and bring it back by our cleansing route to Wolf, where I could give it to Ghi, Ghi could then extract the information from the thumb drive, and now she has a list of all the engineers who are part of the enemy country's Air Force. And then from there, she has a starting point for her information to start finding targets.

Starting point is 00:44:36 Now, as she finds targets, that's when we tap on our case officers, James, Tasha, Luke, Beverly, and we say, here's somebody that we think would be susceptible to you, because you're a middle-aged woman, you're an older man, You're a younger man.

Starting point is 00:44:51 You're a younger woman, right? We think that these people might be susceptible to your interests, your backgrounds, your voice, who knows what. And we need you to target them. And then we would send those spies into Falcon to meet the targets that Ghee found. Okay. Okay, got you. The game of espionage is not an easy game. It's a fun game, but it's a chess game, not a checkers game.

Starting point is 00:45:17 So there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of moving parts. and for me it was always very exciting, but I also understand that it can be very difficult to express it well. Was there ever a time when you felt most at risk when you were in that hostile country? At some point, my presence in Falcon in the enemy country became known to the local government in the enemy country. And they dispatched a surveillance team to track me.

Starting point is 00:45:46 It was a major turning point in our operation. We kind of went from a place where we felt like we were winning to a place where we wondered if we were losing. We went from a place where I felt very safe to a place where I felt like I could immediately be apprehended. And then all the worst thoughts start to creep in. Not necessarily about being shot. Oftentimes a CIA officer being shot in a foreign country is a welcome experience because being shot at least means everything ends. The worst is being captured and being interrogated and being used for diplomatic leverage and being used for policy leverage and being used for policy leverage and being. being forced to do, you know, into brainwashing and propaganda videos.

Starting point is 00:46:25 Like, that's a much worse experience than a clean death. You said earlier that it would have been the mole that was exposed to your presence and that knew that you were in this enemy country. So was it the mole that told the enemy country? That's what we believe. We don't have the evidence to prove it. But what CIA's conclusion, as well as the conclusion inside of our own shadow cell, is that our operations had reached the place where they were significant enough that the mole took a risk to find out that I was the exposed member of the cell.

Starting point is 00:46:58 And then the mole reported my name to the hostile country's police force. So you're now inside that hostile country, the enemy country, and they know that you're a U.S. spy. Was there a day when you realized that they knew that you were a spy? Yes. Well, there wasn't a day that I realized that they knew I was CIA. There was a day that I realized they were surveilling me as if I was a threat. When you travel, when any business person travels to a hostile country, they're almost always surveilled. Their hotel rooms can be rifled through. There's people called bumbling surveillance or watchers who will usually follow you. I'm not sure what your travel looks like, but I can almost assure you that if you've traveled to Russia, if you've traveled to Russia, if you've traveled to, to China if you traveled to Cuba, you had a watcher. You had a surveillance team. Really? That was watching you. Me? Yeah. Why? Because you're wealthy, you're successful. You're an influencer. You're of significance. At the very least, they want to make sure that some petty criminal doesn't hurt you in their country because that could be a big deal. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:48:01 But, please continue to surveil me. But at worst, they could also be scraping your cell phone to pull all of your contacts off the cell phones so that they could then reach out to any of the contacts that you have on your cell phone. They could scan and duplicate your hard drive as you go through secondary or go through immigration in a foreign country. They can scan my hard drive as I go through immigration. Absolutely. We can do that here in the United States too. So if I land in the United States,

Starting point is 00:48:24 how would they do that? So there's different authorities that exist for different agencies. So here inside the United States, one of the authorities that we give to our Border Patrol is the authority to essentially scrape data off of all of your electronic devices. So if you're deemed a target of interest, and if you're

Starting point is 00:48:44 moved into what's known as a secondary screening, they will separate you from your bags. They'll actually open your bags. They might even tell you to unlock your cell phone or unlock your laptop. And then from there, with technology that's proprietary and technology that's also commercially available, they can scrape and scan your hard drive. Because I've been through security before in various countries, and sometimes when I get to the other end, there's a letter in my suitcase. And the letter in my suitcase says, hey, we had to go through your bags for some reason. if you had a technical device in your bag along with that letter

Starting point is 00:49:17 there's a good chance that it was cloned but I didn't give them my password sometimes they don't need your password really oh yeah how are they going to get into my laptop without my password there's ways so yeah there's password generators there's password cracking codes your password is the I mean I have somebody I could call right now

Starting point is 00:49:40 and within about 30 minutes we would probably have have all of your passwords that you use for all of your devices in your personal home. That's the end of the podcast, Andrew. Get to acquit the book. It's probably my phone. And this is a bit of a tangent, but it's an important one. So what devices do you guys use if you have that knowledge

Starting point is 00:50:04 that it's really easy to break into devices? Do you use the same devices that I use? Yeah, I mean, for me, I assume that once you, if you become a target, interest, there's nothing you can do to protect yourself. So I use devices that are actually easy to crack and clone because I don't want my device to get broken. So that when the Chinese or the Russians choose to go through some backdoor on my Android system, my Android doesn't shut down. Whereas there are more complex systems, like a glacier phone, where if somebody

Starting point is 00:50:32 penetrates your glacier phone, the whole phone will shut down and you'll be without a phone. Is there any phone or device that's safe? I would argue the answer is no. No. I would say no. Because anything that you create that claims to be safe becomes priority number one for all the adversaries out there because they know if they can be the first ones to crack that phone or crack that hard drive or crack that operating system, then they have the competitive advantage over everybody else. Yeah, it's possible for something to be safe for a short period of time, but eventually it's going to get cracked. They'll find the back door and figure out how to open it. And it's not just foreign intelligence that wants to do that. It's also all of your criminal syndicates. It's all of your dark web syndicates.

Starting point is 00:51:11 Everybody wants to do it. So whenever I see anybody come out and promise that they got the new hardest device, I just, I don't believe it. It might be hard, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Yeah, there are levels of security, but nothing is 100% secure, at least when it comes to technology. And so we just assume that it's not secure. And so you just treat your device in that way, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:34 with whatever liberal security is convenient and makes you feel secure. But knowing that at any point, somebody could just hack it. in from, you know, they could hack in remotely, they could, you know, scrape your drive when you're going through immigration or if you're in a hotel room, somebody comes in. I mean, it's always possible. They can steal your encryption key from somebody else that you are having an encrypted chat with. They don't have to target you. Do you use, like, cold storage, i.e. do you use, like, a hard drive that's not connected to the internet or something? We will air gap. Air gap. Air gaping is cold storage, like what you're talking about, where you

Starting point is 00:52:04 take something off the actual cloud, take something off the internet, and it just lives in a standalone server, whether that's a, we have drives that we save our information to that are air gaps. They're not connected to the internet, not connected to a cloud. They're only connected whenever we choose to transfer information. So we'll do things like that to keep our information safe. But I think the most important thing is that if you show, if you make yourself easy to be hacked, then you'll actually get hacked less because you're not a risk. They can see what you have. They understand that you're not important and they move on to the next target that's more more clandestine or trying to hide. Okay, so you figure out, going back to the story, you figure out

Starting point is 00:52:47 that you're being surveilled. How? Just like the whole idea of a cleansing route through a third country, that's a piece of tradecraft that has never been exposed before. I actually get to teach a number of people, I get to teach in the story how we do what's known as a surveillance detection route. So the core of surveillance detection is understanding something that we call multiple sites, multiple sightings over a period of time. So

Starting point is 00:53:12 I need to see the same person, the same vehicle, the same face, the same profile. Profile meaning, you know, tall Caucasian male mid-50s. I need to see the same profile several times over a period of time where I'm changing locations. So what happens inside shadow cell is I

Starting point is 00:53:31 identify one car, that follows me through multiple turns and then falls off only to come back on later on. That's kind of my first indicator that there might be something going on. So then I go through this route, a predetermined, pre-planned route

Starting point is 00:53:48 through a city. And the only reason I'm doing that route is so that I can drag people along with me to see if they're going to behave like surveillance. And from that route, I find that it's not just one car, it's actually two other cars. And when I get out of my own vehicle to walk on foot, there are very specific people who then follow me on foot.

Starting point is 00:54:08 And then in the third part of the surveillance detection route, I find that the same people who are following me on foot are also the people driving the cars that are following me inside vehicles. So most surveillance detection routes are executed in this very prescribed, very specific process so that you can see who is actually following you. and you did that you discover that there's multiple people following you in multiple vehicles and when you discover that it's terrifying yeah i was going to say you it's absolutely terrifying but it's comforting because you know they're following you but they don't know that you know that yet so they still think that they're discreet they still think that that you're operationally active meaning they're following you because they expect you to commit espionage they're following you because they expect you to meet with a source,

Starting point is 00:54:59 do a dead drop, acquire some kind of equipment that you shouldn't have, right? They're waiting for that. If they don't see that, then they don't get the evidence that they need. They don't win. So you go straight to a strip club or something? Exactly right.

Starting point is 00:55:12 You go to a strip club. You go to a library. I went to an arcade in this book, and you go somewhere to just waste their time. Because as long as I'm collecting their information, when I come back to my friendly country and I meet with my shadow cell teammates, I can now tell them,

Starting point is 00:55:26 this license plate is a surveillance vehicle this profile is a surveillance vehicle if you see a woman or a man wearing these types of clothing this is a surveillance right and we can now we can build a database back in Wolf that shares the surveillance team members in Falcon

Starting point is 00:55:41 were you scared when you figured out that you were being followed I was terrified I was terrified because I had so many thoughts going through my head from how did I fuck up to what if I don't go home I'm trying to think about what they're going to do as their next step.

Starting point is 00:55:57 How long are they going to follow me before? They just say, fuck it and just wrap me up. Are they even going to wrap me up? Wrap me up, meaning apprehend me, capture me. Do they already have evidence that shows that I'm committing espionage, right? I haven't committed espionage on this trip yet, but have they seen me on a previous trip doing a dead drop, retrieving a dead drop, dropping a cell phone, taking a battery? Like, what do they know?

Starting point is 00:56:19 I don't know what they know. And then you've got all this panic, and at the same time, you have to recall three and a half hours of very specific activity across a city to run an SDR. An SDR? A surveillance detection route. You have to recall, I turn left on front street,

Starting point is 00:56:36 I go two blocks, I turn right on 22nd north, and then I turn left on an alley. You have to recall this thing that you memorize, that you work through, and at the same time that you're having this spike of adrenaline and panic. And you were on your own?

Starting point is 00:56:48 I was on my own for that operation. So you go through this route through the city that you is predetermined for you to go down, and presumably this particular route is designed in such a way where it gives you opportunities to expose them, you realize that you are being followed.

Starting point is 00:57:05 What do you do in that exact moment? The first moment that I realized it was true, I had this realization, this moment of fear and vulnerability where I just, it was a moment of self-loathing where you just realize that you're not as good as you think you are, and you realize that however this happened,

Starting point is 00:57:30 you're the only one to blame for what comes next. In that kind of moment of humility, I actually called Jehe. In our alias identities that we had built for these operations, we had what's known as a throwaway phone or a disposable telecommunications. And I called her, and I gave her a coded message to let her know, that something was wrong because I wanted her to know that something was wrong

Starting point is 00:57:58 so that she could take it back to the cell so that they could start their systems on their end to protect me if I did get arrested, if I did get wrapped up, if I did get shot. You gave her a coded message? Via cell phone. What is that coded message?

Starting point is 00:58:11 I think I just called you instead I'm coming home early. You called her and said, I'm coming home early. Yeah, which is a bad sign because you would never come home early from an operation ever. so as soon as I heard he was coming home early

Starting point is 00:58:25 I knew that something was wrong Take me into your world at that time The phone rings I get the call up my phone My burner phone And which was unusual anyways I mean I always had it Because that was part of our like

Starting point is 00:58:37 communication plan was for us to do that when we were apart So a burner phone is a secondary phone That you just use for these kind of things That's just for this It's never used for anything else It's not connected to a name And that's what keeps it anonymous for us And so he calls and he says, you know, hey, I'm coming home early.

Starting point is 00:58:55 And I'm like, okay, because you can't, like, if the line's being tapped, you can't be like, oh, my God, what's going on? Like, are you okay? Because somebody's listening to it. It has to sound like we knew that his alias had a fiancé. I was a fiancé. So, you know, it was totally natural for anybody listening in to hear him say, hey, I'm coming home early. So then I have to be like, oh, that's really exciting. That's great.

Starting point is 00:59:19 You know, I can't wait to see you. And he's like, okay, I love you. And then that's the end of the conversation. And that's all I get. And so after that's all I get from Andy, I go back to the office. I'm starting to look, like scour all of our cables, like go talk to James. Like, have you heard anything? Like, is anything happening?

Starting point is 00:59:37 You started to scour all of your cables. Yeah. So, you know, we have all of our databases, you know, all the CIA databases. So, you know, there's reporting that comes in all the time that you're, you know, especially regional. reporting that you're privy to. And so, you know, I talked to James because he was, he had more access than I did to things, all things Falcon. And so I was like, have you heard anything? Is there anything weird going on? And he said no. And so I started just kind of looking through

Starting point is 01:00:03 all of my stuff to see, you know, was there any reporting that was of somebody being captured or somebody, you know, something going wrong. And there was nothing. And so Andy and I have, we created on our own just a, it's called a combo plan, a communication plan, where you know, if anything ever happens, you know, whether natural disaster or, you know, espionage, phopat, like we had a system of communication where, you know, I wait eight hours and, you know, check this fake email that we share that's not attributable. And then he gives me a sign of life. And then we have these timings, eight hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, where all I need from him is a sign of life to know that he's okay. And then that also gives us the opportunity

Starting point is 01:00:49 if it were natural disaster, for example, to put, you know, I, meet me at this location. So that's an email address that Andy emails. Yes. Close. It's an email address that we both have a log into, and you create a draft email inside of it. Oh, okay. Also learns from terrorism. Also learned from terrorism.

Starting point is 01:01:07 Oh, is that what terrorists do? Yeah. So they create a draft email, they just leave it there. Correct. And someone else logs in and looks at it. Correct. So it's never sent, so it never goes over the Internet really. Yeah, so we had this communication plan in place.

Starting point is 01:01:18 So even though I was concerned and I couldn't find anything to discover what was happening, I knew we had this communication plan in place. So I knew that at some point he was going to give me a sign of life and I couldn't do anything until that point. So you've discovered that you've been discovered by this adversarial country. You call Jihi, you let her know that you're coming home early, then what you do? Then I have to plan my escape.

Starting point is 01:01:44 So another thing that people, the movies don't show you is that when the first effort to escape is always self-rescue. It's always on the part of the field officer alone to try to escape. There's no Navy SEAL team, there's no evacuation helicopter, there's no high-speed boat or classy yacht just waiting for you. You have to get yourself across the country's border yourself before you can hope for any kind of evac from there or what we call an X-Fill. So I knew that it was on me to come up with some evacuation plan. And I had to come up with an evacuation plan

Starting point is 01:02:22 that wasn't going to let the surveillance team know that I knew I was under surveillance. So you're still in the car at this point? I'm in between the car and on foot, depending on where I am in the surveillance detection route, right? It was surveillance detection routes generally break into three phases. It's in the first phase that you suspect that you're under surveillance. It's in the second phase that you confirm.

Starting point is 01:02:46 So it's in the second phase when I confirm, I am absolutely under surveillance. That's when I contact GEHE, and that's when I start coming up with my own self-rescue plan. And the third phase? The third phase is a collection phase. You know that you're under surveillance. You know that you've communicated to somebody that you're under surveillance. And now the mission becomes collect as much information as you can about the surveillance team before they realize that they're being collected against.

Starting point is 01:03:11 So you see this car behind you, multiple cars behind you, and the same people following you on foot. Are you writing this down, or are you just trying to memorize it? At first, it's all memory. And we have a methodology for trying to memorize this stuff. We actually talk about this in the book as well. You start to come up with short codes to describe the people. And the codes that you come up with means something to you, but they wouldn't mean anything if they came out in an interrogation or if they came out in writing. So, like for you, I might call you black T-shirt.

Starting point is 01:03:39 a black t-shirt means something to me. So if I see black t-shirt behind me three times in the next 45 minutes in three different parts of the city, I know that I have an image for what black t-shirt means. But when I write down black t-shirt, nobody else knows what that means.

Starting point is 01:03:53 When I see a woman, it was cold, the season that I was carrying out these operations. I saw a woman in earmuffs, so I would call her earmuffs. I saw a guy in a bomber jacket. So I called him bomber jacket. And you just recall these people. You blue sedan, yellow,

Starting point is 01:04:09 SUV, white taxicab, you start to come up with these nicknames that means something to you but don't mean anything to anybody else. And then when you get back to a place where you can document your notes in detail, you have a reference point to document in detail. So I start by memorizing when I got towards the end of my third phase of surveillance detection, I actually wrote down my notes. In the book, it explains, I went into a like a clothing store and then I started making notes in the clothing store. Presumably, if somebody came in and arrested me at that moment, what they would see is a bunch of notes about clothing, earmuffs and black t-shirts. Inside of a clothing store, that's not espionage. But then when I was able to actually get back

Starting point is 01:04:50 to Wolf with my cell, then I was able to deconstruct what black t-shirt meant. Black t-shirt meant. Black male with a goatee approximately 165 pounds, 5-foot, 11 inches, 38 years old. So how do you get from phase two of your process of figuring out if you're being followed to the arcade? Like what was the, why did you go to the arcade? So I went to the arcade because I was trying, in a surveillance detection route, one of the things that you're actually trying to do is called bore or lull your surveillance. You never want to, in movies, it makes it look like you're trying to ditch your surveillance team. You're trying to lose your tail. That's not what professionals do. What professionals do is we drag the tail. We keep the tail. We keep the

Starting point is 01:05:38 with us for as long as possible. And one of the things you do is you make yourself very predictable. You move very slowly. You hang out in public places, which makes it very easy for them to observe you. I was actually going to the arcade to try to collect more information about my surveillance team, but I was trying to give them time and space so they could observe me in a public setting. It backfired because what actually ended up happening is that when I went into the arcade,

Starting point is 01:06:05 they lost me. They lost sight of me. which put them into a position where they started panicking to try to find me even though I was just sitting inside the arcade. I mean, it doesn't sound like it backfired

Starting point is 01:06:18 if they lost you. It's a terrible thing when they lose you because when they lose you, they start to panic and they start to assume either they made a mistake or you're a trained officer. If you're a trained officer,

Starting point is 01:06:28 if that's the conclusion that they make, they can come in and arrest you. If they lose you, then they start to make mistakes. And when a surveillance team starts to make mistakes, it means that they might stumble across you. They might have two different surveillance people find you at the same time.

Starting point is 01:06:43 And for them, that's a scary thing because for them, they're trying not to be identified. They're trying to be discreet. They're trying to not be seen. So when they, in this case, in the story that we share in Shadow Cell, when the surveillance team broke into a starburst, a starburst means they broke ranks

Starting point is 01:06:59 to try to find me in the arcade. When they broke ranks to try to find me, they presented themselves to me. in the arcade face to face. And it was in that moment that I realized they know that I see them and I know that they see me and this is bad.

Starting point is 01:07:18 You locked eyes with them. Which you're never supposed to do. You're never supposed to do. You're never supposed to lock eyes with your surveillance. You're never supposed to lock eyes with anybody who's a threat ever because that's threatening behavior, right?

Starting point is 01:07:32 That's one of the reasons that people share strong eye contact with peers. is a show of trust. Well, whenever you're locking eyes with somebody who's a threat, it's a sign of aggression or dominance. So whenever you're being surveilled, you never want to make eye contact with your surveillance team because your surveillance team will see that eye contact as a threat.

Starting point is 01:07:50 When you say you sort of bumped into them in that arcade, what's the distance? Three feet. Three feet. And how long did you lock eyes with each other? It felt like an eternity. In reality, it was probably two and a half seconds. I mean two and a half seconds is a long time

Starting point is 01:08:07 especially when you're trying not to be seen So recreate that moment for me You're in the arcade pretending you're playing with games You turn a corner It's horrible man it's a horrible it's a horrible story I'm in the arcade I'm again I think I'm doing everything right I'm like oh I'm in the arcade

Starting point is 01:08:23 They watched me come in this gives They're probably taking a smoke break outside They've got nothing to worry about And I'm kind of going from game to game And spending whatever credits that I bought in the arcade And I go to this dinosaur hunting shooting game, right? Almost like big buck hunter or like Jurassic Park.

Starting point is 01:08:40 And I pick up a rifle and I'm shooting at dinosaurs. And I'm just killing time. And then the fucking surveillance comes around the back of the machine looking for me. He comes around the back of the machine and he sees me and I'm holding a fucking gun. And I look at him and he looks at me. And that's when our two and a half seconds happened. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, what just happened? Why did I just see Bomberjacket come around my video game console and stare at me in the face?

Starting point is 01:09:10 And that's when I kind of realized, oh my gosh, the team is in panic. I can see multiple people in the team. They lost me. They're trying to find me. Bomberjacket just found me. What did Bomber Jacket do when he looked at you? His jaw dropped. He went slack.

Starting point is 01:09:24 Like, he looked at me, and he knew that he had fucked up to. And I looked at him, and in my mind's eye, I was just hoping that I didn't look as stupid as he looked. In that moment, is it true to say that you should have just looked back at the dinosaur game as fast as you possibly could? What I should have done is I should have seen a person come around the corner and just kind of stayed in the game. That's what anybody else would have done. Anybody else would have just stayed in the game. They're focused on the game. They don't even realize there are people walking around, right?

Starting point is 01:09:50 But the fact that I identified it, I saw him and then looked at him and the fact that he saw me and looked at me as two professionals on opposite sides of the playing field, we both made the same mistake. We both made the mistake of showing our recognition to our intended target. And before we continue, as far as your alias was in that country, you were called Alex Hernandez, right? Correct. And you were running a business called Acme Commercial? Correct. What was Acme Commercial supposed to be doing as a company? Acme Commercial was a company that was built to source new disposable goods from foreign countries for

Starting point is 01:10:29 for transport and distribution across Western countries. And the intelligence services build a lot of fake businesses, you said. Yes. Yes, it's the easier it is to build a business, the easier it is to collect information. So what we've discovered is that just as anybody with $127 in their pocket can create an LLC, that's about how much money it takes to start an intelligence operation. It says that the CIA operates numerous fake companies. The CIA also operates numerous real companies, too.

Starting point is 01:11:03 Not just a CIA. I mean, every Intel organization has commercial fronts, every Intel organization. The CIA operates real companies. What does that mean? There are real companies out there owned and operated by CIA. Incutel is one of those companies. It's an investment vehicle where CIA invests money and invests in new technology, and all the technology that goes through Incutel knows that it's going through to CIA.

Starting point is 01:11:29 Okay, that's public, though, right? Correct. But the ones that aren't public. So the CIA will create a company, and then they will use that company to pretend to be doing something in a foreign land, basically. But the primary mission is intelligence. This is one of the most fascinating things,

Starting point is 01:11:47 not only about CIA, but about all of your first world intelligence organizations. You've heard of what's known as the black budget. The black budget is the budget of discretionary money that can be spent, on military and intelligence operations that isn't tied to the taxpayer. So it's a giant pot of money

Starting point is 01:12:06 that isn't tied to tax money. So where does that money come from? Part of that money comes from anytime law enforcement or intelligence agencies seize assets. We seize cryptocurrency, we seize drugs, we seize child pornography, right? When we seize that money

Starting point is 01:12:22 and we use it for other operations, that's part of the black budget. The other part of the black budget is when an intelligence organization creates a business and that business turns a profit. When that business turns a profit, where does the profit go? It can't go to the case officer. That person's being paid on the U.S. payroll.

Starting point is 01:12:38 So all that profit goes into the black budget. Do you think the CIA has some big profitable businesses that are set up as fronts that just like went really, really well? I know it does. Really? I know it does. The CIA has businesses that it's set up that have gone wildly profitable. CIA also has officers that built these businesses

Starting point is 01:12:56 that then were like, why the fuck am I at CIA? and then they leave CIA and they go on to run businesses instead. I mean, a couple of things popped into my head as you said that. The first was there's obviously a huge conversation at the moment around TikTok because TikTok was started in China

Starting point is 01:13:12 it's become this massive sort of global success and I can't think of a better company to have started than a platform like TikTok where everybody's putting their information and data in and it's tracking your location. So what is your perspective on something like TikTok? Do you think TikToks were started as a tool to spy?

Starting point is 01:13:30 I don't believe TikTok individually was started as a tool to spy. I believe that what happened is TikTok became wildly popular, and the government in China realized, hey, everything in China belongs to the government anyways. We can step in and take advantage of this. That is also a way that CIA and MI6 do business as well. When a company does very well, and there's an intelligence benefit, they will approach the company. In a democracy, they can't force the company to cooperate, but in a country like China, they

Starting point is 01:13:57 can. So do you think the social networks, a lot of the big social networks, have been approached by the CIA or the MI6 and asked to give information to them? I would go a step further and say that they've all been approached and that the vast majority of them cooperate. Is that a concern for the average person? Not for the average person, that's a benefit. The average person is not being targeted. I promise you. Like there's zero interest. And for the federal government and for the intelligence community, there is absolutely zero interest in the average person. The person who's cheating on their spouse or avoiding $5,000 in taxes or who isn't paying their parking bills. Nobody cares. The federal government doesn't care about that. Well, you were

Starting point is 01:14:41 doing some of that targeting, right? Right. So did you ever work with any existing company to give you information? So all of my data, depending on what country I was working on, had different sources. And some countries had more sources than others, but they're all sources I can't disclose, but there's tons and tons of data that would come into me. And then I had, I worked on a number of cases where I had to get FISA requests. What's a FISA request? The FISA request is when you want to collect information or take information from somebody who is an American citizen. And I just want to remind people that American citizen, most people who complain about, oh, they're targeting American citizens are thinking about themselves.

Starting point is 01:15:25 They're looking at themselves in the mirror and thinking, oh, they're targeting American citizens. They're not thinking about the Chinese person who just came over and naturalized. They're not thinking about the, you know, Iranian who's been here for a long time and naturalized, right? Like all of those, they're not thinking about, you know, the- The Al-Qaeda member who claimed to be a refugee to get here to get some sort of green card. Right.

Starting point is 01:15:47 So American citizenship, a lot of people have that. And some of those people are doing bad things. And some of those people are our adversaries who have infiltrated the United States and are here to gather intelligence to give to our adversaries, you know, or are here to do bad things within the country. And so we have to get FISA requests to get the data on them. And what does that mean in reality of FISA request? Does that mean that you can go into their phone? It means that you have proven a link from that person to something bad that you've given the, you've given the, you've given the, you've given the, you've given the, you've given the court enough evidence to say, hey, look, this person's doing something bad,

Starting point is 01:16:25 and we need to gather more data on them. So it just opens the kind of data that you can get on that person. What kind of data is that? You can get on their phone. You can get into their computer. You can get into their private Google accounts. You can get to their private Apple accounts. Any kind of data you can get access to. You can now use it to target them. So you could get access to their private Google accounts, their private Apple accounts, without their passwords. You would hack their passwords or steal their passwords, or Google retains their passwords. And Google would give you the password?

Starting point is 01:16:57 For most cases, if it comes down to national security, American companies will share details. And that's what a Pfizer request does, is it's a judicial claim, it's a judicial warrant, essentially, to say you will let this service onto that person's account. You guys must think that people like me live in a certain state of naivety and ignorance as to what's actually going on. I wouldn't say it's ignorance or naivity. I would say that it's conditioned into you. You're conditioned to believe that you have privacy.

Starting point is 01:17:29 So the reality that we should realize is that we don't have privacy. It's not real. Privacy is not real. No. I mean, you know, there's a level. When you get undressed in a dark room, like that's yours? Usually. No one's watching.

Starting point is 01:17:47 There's a good chance that you're not being watched by the federal government. If you're getting, that's a good chance. You know, if you're sending, you know, dirty emails to your girlfriend, that's essentially, I mean, it's private on the surface. But not really forever private. Somebody could access those. If you write her dirty notes, that's way more private. Especially if she throws them away or burns them. Like people just, I think people take, put too much confidence in.

Starting point is 01:18:20 technology and feel too confident in the privacy of technology, because technology, there's really nothing private about it. To an extent, yes. But if you think that nobody can ever look at your stuff, that's wrong. Do you think the CIA knew you were coming here today? I think the CIA knew we were coming on Diary of a CEO, and I think they knew that we were going to talk to you about our book. How do you think they knew that? Because we know that CIA, as well as other intelligence services, as an example, the United Arab Emirates, we know that they have a dedicated person that sits in their office that watches us. So how would they know you are coming here today?

Starting point is 01:18:54 Our emails. I mean, our emails, our publishers' emails, our own text messages back and forth, listening in on phone calls, any number of things could have happened. Like, we've tried to have a very collaborative relationship with CIA about this book because we know how scared they are. We know how nervous this book makes them. So we're trying to be extra collaborative to give them peace of mind, like, hey, we're not about to go out there and tell the world that you're a bunch of animals and terrible anything. They've actually read the book multiple times and still they're afraid that we're going to somehow like make them look bad because so many of their officers have come out to

Starting point is 01:19:33 become authors who makes CIA look bad. There was a couple of the things that we are going to get back to the arcade and what happened next, but there's a couple of the things that sprung to mind when you talked about how people can make real businesses, fake businesses, have various different covers. The next one was you mentioned Edward Snowden earlier. And in mentioning Edward Snowden, you used him as an example of someone who returns to the country that they were working for the whole time. So with Snowden, in the Snowden case in specific, right, whenever somebody flees their own home country, nobody gives them protection for free. Even in the United States, we don't give anybody protection for free. You have to earn it. You have to share some sort of

Starting point is 01:20:17 currency. And that currency may not be cash dollars. That currency might be information. So when Snowden leaked to the Guardian, the operations at NSA that were collecting against American citizens, the same American citizens that Geehee was just talking about, right? Nobody cares about Joe Bob. Everybody cares about, you know, the person who's pretending to be an American citizen but is, in fact, a terrorist threat. When Snowden made his escape, his, when he fleed the United States. He was essentially trading classified information, not just the details of the NSA case that he whistlebleau, but other confidential information that he collected specifically as currency to help him basically pay his way through Hong Kong and into China or into

Starting point is 01:21:02 Russia. And so he lives in Russia now? He's a Russian citizen. I'm pretty sure he's also received a Russian award for heroism. And you think he gave secrets to Russia about the United States to get that? I can almost guarantee you. Yeah. What he gave, I don't know. But Russia wouldn't give him that status unless he had given them something in return. And the other one who sprung to mind as real business, fake, you know, real business become successful, is the man on everyone's lips at the moment, Jeffrey Epstein. So Epstein's a fascinating case because Epstein fits all of the primary pillars of a foreign intelligence asset collecting information. on American citizens, not an American spy working for someone else. It's funny because people keep thinking like CIA killed him or people keep thinking that he

Starting point is 01:21:55 somehow worked for CIA or maybe even worked for for Mossad. What I see is the opposite, that he, if anything, was working independently, maybe even working for several companies, but collecting information on U.S. people. Is that what you believe? I think that he could have been that. I don't know that I necessarily believe that it's true. Because he was a very successful business person. He had lots of successful friends.

Starting point is 01:22:22 I was interviewing someone the other day, and they said that they met Jeffrey Epstein, and Jeffrey Epstein was really, really interested in their physics and science discoveries and wasn't interested at all in the financier stuff that he was pretending to, or he was purporting to be involved in. And this person said to me, it was just really bizarre. because he was only interested in the physics and science discoveries we had at Harvard. He wasn't particularly interested in finance to me, and that person was really shocked by that.

Starting point is 01:22:54 What I've learned working with wealthy people and successful people is that they're often very intelligent, and they're often misunderstood. And part of the reason that they have grown as successful as they have grown is because they don't really fit in anywhere else. If they would have fit in somewhere else, they would have been distracted by the area where they fit in. Instead, they had to carve their own interests, their own passions, their own drive. In many ways, when I look at Epstein, that's what I see.

Starting point is 01:23:17 I've also worked with many wealthy people who have gone to jail. And when wealthy people go to jail, their whole identity crumbles. And they start to doubt themselves, and they start to have these irrational thoughts that sound totally rational to them. I had a client who was very wealthy, who was going to jail after being found guilty of a crime that arguably couldn't be proven, but the court system was set up in such a way that he was found guilty. and he literally thought that it would be better if he cut off all ties to his kids and just went to jail and then even when he got out of jail

Starting point is 01:23:49 and never talked to his kids again because that would be better than shaming his children for the rest of their life with a father who went to jail. So when I think about the Epstein case and I think about a wealthy, powerful man who was having parties with the world's elite

Starting point is 01:24:03 and then he goes to jail and he kills himself, to me that's not an unbelievable series of events. the whole thing with the island and the underage sex and all this stuff people just can't seem to shake the idea that he wasn't extracting information and then the fact that they weren't release the flight logs or a list of the names of people that were frequenting his island or interacting with him also raises another question mark about why wouldn't the US government release that

Starting point is 01:24:33 why isn't Trump very quick to release that information there are lots of secrets that are kept for lots of reasons and when we talk about if there's anything that we've learned need to know that the need part is the driving part what is the need to know

Starting point is 01:24:50 there's plenty of secrets the government has that it tells the American people it doesn't know it's just lying of course it knows but it's working the common good to say if you knew what we knew it could cause panic

Starting point is 01:25:05 it could cause chaos it could cause any number of things and in the United States that is one of the rights and privileges that the federal government has. So what do you both think happened with the Jeffrey Epstein situation because it smells fishy to everybody? The fact that Trump and Cash Patel

Starting point is 01:25:19 and various other White House officials were saying we're going to release it the minute we get in there and then they get in there and they say there's nothing to release. You must, because you understand this much more than I would, you must see like fingerprints of what you think is actually going on there

Starting point is 01:25:35 or the real reasons they wouldn't release it. When I look at it through a lens of probabilities, the most probable outcome is that somebody in the prison was hired to hurt Jeffrey Epstein. That's the most probable outcome, that somebody outside was watching the Epstein case and knew that Epstein may or may not have compromising information on them, and that wealthy, well-connected person paid to have a hit inside the prison. That's just the, to me, that's the most probable result of things happening. That explains the missing evidence, that explains the videotapes, that explains the stories inside of prison where nobody can see what's going on. Also, that's the most vulnerable place for Epstein to have been neutralized. That's how we would have run an operation. But why wouldn't the government release that?

Starting point is 01:26:24 Why wouldn't they say a prisoner killed him? The government may not know that, because if a prisoner was paid to do it, they may have covered their tracks well enough. or they may have paid a prisoner and the guards to also cover the thing up. Jail's a nasty place. People forget how nasty a place jail is. And jails are commercial. They're not federal for the most part. So it's a commercial business that has all sorts of plausible deniability that a federal business or a federal organization, federal building doesn't have.

Starting point is 01:26:53 So that's, to me, that's the most probable series of events. There's still a chance that any number of the other conspiracies are true. But when I think of what I've seen, what my clients have seen, what I would do if I was in the shoes of a foreign adversary or a foreign intelligence collection operation dealing with a Jeffrey Epstein type of situation, that's how we would clean it up. There was a press conference the day where the reporters asked the Trump administration, does the Department of Justice have any indication that Jeffrey Epstein was working with the U.S. or a foreign intelligence agency or was he a spy of some kind? And Pam Bondi, who works in the Trump administration, said, to him being an agent, I have no knowledge about that. We can get back to you on that. Two really important things here. If they did have information on that, in an active investigation, she would say, I have no knowledge on that.

Starting point is 01:27:47 She would lie to the American public. That's what you have to do if you're trying to build a current case. Because if they acknowledge, we have some reason to believe that he might have been an agent. now all of a sudden everybody else out there would start destroying evidence and start hiding evidence and start making the case much more difficult so if they knew they would say they don't know

Starting point is 01:28:07 Do you think he was an agent? I think he could have been I think he fits the model of a very good reporting asset but I don't have enough evidence to say that it was actually one. Do you think he was? I mean I think even if he was

Starting point is 01:28:22 I don't know that it matters is what I think even if he was that doesn't mean that it's connected because he was a lot of things. So I think people are focused on it because it's interesting. Yeah. Because it would be interesting if he was and it would be interesting if there was this conspiracy. I think that's why people are focused on it. But I don't know that it really matters because in the grand scheme of things, I mean, it could be a lot of things that led, you know. Why are we talking about a dead guy who's not reporting?

Starting point is 01:28:53 I think it's just the allure of right. People want answers. Once the curiosity gaps open, people need to fill it with something. Correct. When what the intelligence community believes is that in any given moment, there are two penetrations of every intelligence service. So why are we talking about the dead guy that we don't know about when we're not talking about the dozens of arrests and cases that are made every year of active moles, active penetrations that are inside of our intelligence community? Every single one of you watching this right now has something to offer, whether it's knowledge or skills or experience. And that means you have value. Stan Store, the platform I co-own, who are one of the sponsors of this podcast, turns your knowledge into a business through

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Starting point is 01:30:24 Once I realized that we had both made the same mistake, he darted off in one direction, and I felt burned. Burnd is the term that we use whenever we are spotted, identified as trained intelligence officers. But I didn't want to act on being burned right away because our training says that just because you believe something to be true, you can't act on that truth.

Starting point is 01:30:46 If you act on that truth, then you're verifying to anybody observing that you already know you screwed up. So I kind of ambled around the arcade and played another couple of games kind of half-handed, half-hearted, just to kill some time before I left and finished my SDR route and finished my collection and went back to my hotel for the night. The whole process that I go through during the surveillance detection route, the whole process that I go through to evacuate the country safely is all part of the details that we put inside Shadow Cell. But the feeling that predominated, that dominated my thought process was just this feeling of failure, this feeling like I was a bad spy. I'm bad at what I do, bad at what I collect. When I think I'm good, I'm not good.

Starting point is 01:31:33 It was just this humiliating and humbling experience. And it wasn't helped as I went through the process of writing the book. Because when you write a book, it's cathartic in a way because it gets all this stuff out. but it's also this black and white kind of stark reminder of all the things that you've done wrong what did you do wrong whatever i did that got caught was wrong if they caught me on my own behaviors if the mole was the one that identified me to them then i lost the ability to operate inside a falcon on that day i could no longer support the rest of the shadow cell i could no longer support my team. I had a role to play, and I couldn't play that role anymore. And I think that's

Starting point is 01:32:20 especially powerful to me because, I mean, I'm not a case officer. I was supposed to be a case officer, but I'm not because when CIA assessed me for that job, they determined that I wouldn't be good enough. Okay, so you already had an insecurity there. And that was the first year at CIA. So, even though I built this career and I had a chance to carry out this operation, I got to do these amazing things. All that plays that in the back of my head is I wasn't good enough then. I'm not good enough now. One of the things that the CIA does is they teach you how to deal with head trash. What is head trash? It's funny, actually. So head trash is all the terrible things that you say about yourself in your head. That's the colloquial term that we use is head trash. I'm not good

Starting point is 01:33:04 enough. I'm ugly. I'm fat. I wish my smile was better. I lost my true. I lost my true loved when I was 14, whatever, right? My parents didn't love me because I wasn't a good enough kid. Whatever it was, all those things are head trash. They're subjective thoughts that you have because of your experience that don't have any basis and objective reality. CIA teaches us how to deal with that to a point. They teach us how to counter that when we are operationally active so that we don't get distracted by the head trash going on. This is what happened whenever I first knew I was under surveillance. They teach you how to handle stress, mitigate cortisol levels in your bloodstream, lower your heart rate so that you can get back to the task at hand.

Starting point is 01:33:49 How do they do that? Techniques like box breathing. What's that? Box breathing is a process that that's common in anxiety as well. Yeah, breathe in four counts, hold four counts, breathe out four counts, breathe in for, you know, just, it's breathing, there's various breathing techniques where you breathe in for a certain amount of time, you hold it for a certain amount of time, you release it for a certain amount of time. And the goal there is to reduce your heart rate, to reduce your blood flow, to reduce the speed at which the cortisol that's being released from your brain gets spread to the rest of your body. So you can start to take back your physiological movements and actions in a hope that it also brings back your cognitive functions and capabilities.

Starting point is 01:34:26 So the visualization process, just like when you're meditating and you visualize a victory if you're a professional athlete, if you visualize a beach if you're stressing out at work. Like, you can visualize your way through an operation, an operational sequence to get yourself back to a place where you're in control. So they teach us how to deal with that head trash. But what's really interesting is CIA relies on loyalty in its people to keep them at CIA. Because the worst thing for CIA is for a CIA officer to realize how capable they actually are. Because when that officer realizes how smart, how capable, how resilient, how resourceful, they

Starting point is 01:35:02 really are, that person can leave CIA and go do amazing things. So a big part of what CIA does is they train you to be operationally useful, but then they still condition you to be like loyal and needy of outside validation specifically from them. So it's a very strange flywheel that exists. A lot of businesses are like that as well. It's not a healthy relationship, but it's a very effective relationship. So you get back to your hotel. You know, at that point when you're back at your hotel thinking, right, I'm going to find, like, how to get through, like, the restaurant kitchen and, like, out the back and, like, out the back and I'll cycle back to a friendly, because I'd be up all night thinking about going through that plenty of, like, restaurant kitchen. A big part of that is what you do in the second phase of your SDR. And I had those thoughts.

Starting point is 01:35:48 I thought about I could get on a motorcycle. I could ride to a local airfield. I could pay in cash for that airfield person, like a little private pilot to just fly me on a puddle jumper, somewhere where I walk across on foot and then I can make a phone call from another plate. Like, I thought about all that shit, right? The problem is, if you actually act on that and you're being watched, what sense does that make? The only person who would do that kind of crazy shit is somebody who's trying to escape the country. So what did you do? I went back to the hotel.

Starting point is 01:36:18 My plan was to literally just leave, was to walk across the border like any other law-abiding citizen and just evacuate. Walk across the border. Fly. to leave like anybody else would leave and just gamble that they're not going to take me down. Just gamble that I'm going to be more boring than they will be confident and that before they arrest Alex Hernandez and make some sort of public international incident, they're going to think twice and they're going to let me just leave. What actually happened?

Starting point is 01:36:55 So what actually happened is I get back to the hotel. I don't really sleep at all. I try to use sleep techniques to get me to sleep because I am certain that at any given time someone's going to burst through the door and just take me down. Because they already know I'm changing my flight. They already know I'm updating my itinerary.

Starting point is 01:37:14 I've made all the phone calls. I've worked it through my company, my cover company, to get me home early. So I'm just waiting for something to break in. They never break in. I go to the airport the next day. And on the path of the airport, I'm looking for surveillance, and I'm surveillance free. And I get to the airport first thing in the morning, and I'm waiting, and, like, every step,

Starting point is 01:37:34 I'm waiting for someone to jump out of the dark shadows and take me down and drag me off to prison. And it just doesn't happen. Until I get to the first entry point for the airport, I show my passport, I show my ticket, and then they move me into secondary. Secondary meaning where you try to leave a country and the Border Patrol says that you're not, You can't leave through the main gate. You have to go through a second round of interview. So they pull me off into a secondary room.

Starting point is 01:38:02 And I go through a light interrogation with two local Falcon officers at like 7 o'clock in the morning, first flight out. And they're testing my story and they're interrogating me to understand what have I been doing in the country? Why did I change my flight? They're going through my cover story. They're going through my meetings from the day before. They're going through everything two and three times, which is an interrogation technique to see if somebody's lying. And I'm sitting there going through this whole process, watching what almost feels like two untrained Border Patrol agents trying to crack me. And it was a funny feeling because they were so bad at their job that it made me feel confident in myself again.

Starting point is 01:38:49 Are you trained on how to deal with those situations in terms of body language and how you speak? Absolutely. CIA trains us on how to deal with interviews, how to deal with interrogations, and even how to deal with actual capture and strategic, almost like enhanced interrogation, like what you would call, what we do call torture here in the United States. And so from your training, what were you implementing at that moment in time? Mirroring is a big piece of what you're supposed to do in an interrogation. So you want to reflect back to the interrogator what they expect to see in a person of innocence. So you try to keep your, you keep yourself from jittering, you, you calm your

Starting point is 01:39:29 nerves, you try to match their curiosity. So if they lean forward, you actually want to lean forward too. And if they lean back, you want to lean back. And if they're using their hands to talk, you want to use your hands to talk. Because you want to show them that you and them are the same, that you're not better or worse or guilty or anything else. So mirroring is one of the techniques that we're using. I also used minimum information. There's a process called elicit and you use different elicitation techniques to get individuals to share more information than they're supposed to share. One of those elicitation techniques is silence. So oftentimes if you want someone to speak, all you have to do is sit there and be quiet because it will force them to talk.

Starting point is 01:40:10 This is something that many interviewers use, especially when they're border patrol agents or when they're like law enforcement or local law enforcement. They'll just let somebody kind of admit their guilt. So for me, they ask a question, I answer their question, and then we sit there in silence for as long as we need to sit there. until they ask their next question, and then we sit there and I answer their question, we sit there in silence again. And that's combating elicitation. It's a technique that we call counter elicitation.

Starting point is 01:40:33 And that's just one of several elicitation techniques that interviewers can use. And that's useful in everyday life, I guess, as well. Absolutely. In what context? When you're dealing with a negotiation, when you're dealing with a hostile employee, when you're dealing with a hard conversation,

Starting point is 01:40:47 when you're trying to find information in another person who you think is holding information back, elicitation techniques are incredibly valuable. You can ask them a question. You can ask them the same question twice that'll help you identify whether or not they're lying if there's a gap in their two answers or if they answer two different ways.

Starting point is 01:41:03 And I mean, I'm sure you've seen it as a... One of the things that makes you such an effective host in your own house here is that you use elicitation techniques all the time. You ask feeling-based questions. How did you feel about this situation? Take me back to that moment. how would, if you could be king for a day, what would you do? These are all very advanced

Starting point is 01:41:26 solicitation techniques because it gets people to express more than they thought they would share. So you're in that room, in that airport, these two very poorly trained guards are trying to get something out of you. They don't get it out of you. Correct. So at some point, they just let you go. Correct. So what ends up happening is they, they're arguing with each other and I don't know why they're arguing. It seems like from the, from the pigeon words that I can pick up. One of them's talking about being busy and not having enough time and this doesn't make sense. And the other person's talking about, we have to do this. This is required, et cetera, et cetera. I don't actually know what they're saying to each other, but I see that their

Starting point is 01:42:05 aggression with each other just keeps going up, almost like two colleagues who are fighting, right? But at the end of the day, they couldn't hold me without either releasing me back to my plane or moving me into a place where they were going to retain me long term. So when faced with that kind of decision, they released me back to my plane. And then the biggest stress that I had was not running to my plane because as soon as they let me out of the secondary interview, all I wanted to do was like haul ass to my plane, get on my plane and feel safe. But I had to continue to show that I was not a trained officer. And at this point, Jeheed, are you, how are you feeling back? in the friendly country?

Starting point is 01:42:49 So at this point, I still have no idea what's happening. By the time I hear from him, he is in the cutout country on his way back. So I know he's left me a voicemail, and I know he's out of Falcon, the enemy country, which is great. But I know he's in that third country. So I'm like, okay, he should be on his way home. But until then, I mean, all of this that he was going through, I didn't find out until he actually returned home. And then I hear this story, and I'm like, what the hell? Like, this is absolutely like our worst nightmare, like, what we did not want to happen.

Starting point is 01:43:25 And so immediately we are like, you know, we go into action. Like, first it's like, I'm so happy you're home. And then the next thing is, how did this happen? And we just start taking action into, you know, investigating like, did we do something wrong? Like, is there any mistake that we could have made? And we have to research and go back through all of it. our own stuff and you know and then we have to make the assessment of can andy ever go back in you know was this really what we think it was or you know is he safe like is his alias safe

Starting point is 01:43:56 you know and then we have to make those what was your assessment did you think he could go back in no it was too risky yeah we we assessed that alex hernandez was burned was burns and we assume Alex Hernandez being your undercover spy name correct the operating alias that we used And we assume that the cutout country, the third country that Alex was traveling through. So anytime Falcon wanted to track Alex, they would track him back to that third country. Alex would even use the Falcon airline to fly back and forth between the third country and falcons, specifically so that if Falcon intelligence ever suspected Alex, they would feel that much more comfortable knowing that they had flight manifests on him going back to a third country.

Starting point is 01:44:38 So we just assumed from our study that Alex was fully burned, that the mole had come across either Alex's operational history or the mole had come across my true name operational history and tied me to Alex, whichever one it was, Alex was burned. But we also assessed that everybody else who had been traveling to Falcon through the cell was still safe. So you assessed that your shadow cell, which was your team in the friendly country, were all fine.

Starting point is 01:45:05 Yeah. But Alex Hernandez, which was your alias, could no longer be used. Correct. And that was how the cell was built. The cell was built where Alex Hernandez was the tripwire, where the first person to be compromised would be Alex, and that would be the forewarning to everybody else, so they could start to turn up their operational security.

Starting point is 01:45:24 So does that mean it's game over for you? For me, in Falcon, it's game over. I can never go back. I can never go back in my true name. I can never go back in an alias name. All of my biometrics, meaning my fingerprints, my eyeprints, all of that is most likely compromised. All of Alex Hernandez, everything that I carried on me, all the digital platforms that I carried on me,

Starting point is 01:45:45 which were all air-gapped and isolated to just Alex. All of those things we have to assume have been collected and synthesized and reverse-engineered. And you were running a real fake business, right? Well, yeah. I was a middle manager. I was a middle manager in the very fake business. Oh, you're a middle manager. And that was a business set up by the CIA. Okay. So is that, in part, why you both decided to leave the CIA? Did the shadow cell operation end at that moment? Shortly after Andy was compromised, we found out that we were pregnant.

Starting point is 01:46:22 And we were hoping to be able to stay on at Wolf to continue because I could have kept doing everything exactly the same. Wolf being the friendly country. Exactly. And being in the friendly country, I could have done all my targeting from there, no problem. And then we could have, you know, Andy still could have helped. He just couldn't travel into the enemy country anymore. But headquarters decided that we had been so successful and we were continuing to be successful by spreading the cell model to these, to the other locations that they wanted us to come home to Washington, D.C., and train officers, train newer

Starting point is 01:46:57 officers back at headquarters on how the cell model worked and the new techniques we had come up with. the worst part is we had a conversation about what meant more to us CIA or family and without saying it we were both landing on CIA and we start thinking how do we not give up CIA to have a family so we approach the agency and we tell them you know that we have this idea if you'll put us on light duty just give us some cush job for like four years we'll pump out our second baby we'll get our first one old enough to go to school, we'll get our second one old enough for a nanny, and then you can throw us back into the fray. They do that for other officers when they're not successful officers. But when you're a successful officer, they have different plans, and they try to just push you and push you and push you. So they rejected our offer, and they said, no, it's a soft duty.

Starting point is 01:47:53 And they put us back and they told us, you know, gee, he's going to go to this office and do this very sensitive thing, and you're going to go do this other very sensitive thing, and your family's not our problem. And it was at that moment, I think, that we both realized CIA is never going to let us focus on a family. We're always going to be focused on the mission. That's what their job is. That's their number one purpose.

Starting point is 01:48:12 Where if our number one purpose is to be parents, we need to make a change. What did the shadow cell accomplish in terms of the information or strategic objectives that it accomplished? So the shadow cell really did do what we, started out, you know, what the mission, really did complete the mission that we started

Starting point is 01:48:37 out to do. And that was to find new intelligence sources. And we were really successful in doing that. And it accomplished a secondary goal. We didn't know the effectiveness that the shadow cell had in ferreting out the mole until after we had left CIA. We found out that the mole that we had been plagued by was actually arrested by FBI in, I think it was 2019. It was later. But the case file that had identified that mole started all the way back with our operations. So it was successful in ferreting out the mole.

Starting point is 01:49:12 It was successful in building new intelligence sources inside a Falcon. It was successful in maintaining the United States' intelligence advantage against this adversary at a time when all of our other operations were compromised by the mole. I think what Ghee's talking about is a completely unexpected benefit

Starting point is 01:49:30 in that our... model seemed to have become the foundation for a massive restructuring at CIA in 2014, just two years after our cell model, when I escaped Falcon, two years after that, John Brennan, then director of CIA, rolled out an entire reorganization of CIA that was based off of the same cell model that we had built. Was this the mall? But we cannot confirm or deny anything about the mole. I will say this, that if you research the time that that man was arrested,

Starting point is 01:50:07 you'll find two other people who were also CIA moles at the same period of time. So the work that you did overseas, you believe helped lead to the capture of this mole? The work that we did overseas, we believe helped capture the mole that Falcon House, was out to capture. And do you believe that the mole leaked secrets to the enemy country that ended up being the reason why they knew that you were a spy? That was the assessment that we reached inside our own cell, as well as what the counterintelligence

Starting point is 01:50:44 center, which is the covert espionage group that Ji was talking about earlier, their conclusion of the facts was the same, that we did not make any error in our operations. There was no compromise in my behavior, no compromise. in my operations, no compromise of our systems or our communication methods, that the only way that Falcon could have found out about me was through a leak from the mole. How did the mole get caught in the end? What did they do wrong? It's a great question. So, FBI created a sting operation based off of the intelligence that we were able to collect through our operations that brought the mole out. So FBI created a series

Starting point is 01:51:22 of sting operations where they baited the mole into coming back onto American territory. And when the mole stepped foot on American territory, they had enough of a legal case that they could arrest him at the airport and then prosecute them in a court of law. And what was discovered about the mole and the work that they were doing and how long they were doing it for and what they were being paid or given to do to snitch on the United States? So the details that I know that I know we can share, they were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were not paid into the millions, but they were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide information on operations, officers, assets, locations. They were witting, meaning they knew

Starting point is 01:52:08 that they were working with a foreign intelligence agency. They didn't believe they were working with a company. They didn't believe they were working for a research institute. They knew they were working with a known foreign intelligence organization. And that the original ally who gave us the information about the mole, that original ally actually also retained incriminating data on the behaviors of that person that were shared with the Department of Justice. And so was this, this was an individual who was in the CIA, who was approached by this enemy country, and the enemy country said to him, if you give us secrets on what the CIA are doing against us, then we'll give you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Starting point is 01:52:50 We'll give you something. We'll give you cash, at least as part of it. We may also give you other things. Here's that the nasty thing about espionage is cash is usually only one of several rewards. There's also operations where the cash is there so that when you're arrested, your country that arrests you believe that that's what your motivation was. While all of your real money is kept in a separate account that's saved within the actual currency of the country that you're serving. So this person, they were in the CIA as a mole, leaking secrets about the CIA, they then left at some point, and then the FBI set up a trap to get them to come back. Correct. When they left, did they go to the adversarial country?

Starting point is 01:53:36 We can't confirm those details, because to confirm those details starts to give more insight into who the mole was. Okay, but they managed to, because I was thinking, I was just wondering if the enemy countries offer them like lifetime protection or something. They do. So your enemy countries will offer you lifetime protection. They'll offer you multiple generations worth of payment. So even if you're arrested, don't worry. Your kids will be taken care of and their kids will be taken care of. You've got citizenship, like the case of Edward Snowden, who's received citizenship.

Starting point is 01:54:06 Sometimes they offer rewards and accolades in their own home country. There's a number of very strange and compelling offers they come about from foreign intelligence services. When you think about a double agent, when you think about a spy who turns on their own country, it's less about thinking that they're paid to do it. Spies aren't motivated usually by money. We weren't motivated by money. We're motivated by that very unhealthy relationship where you have to be validated by somebody else.

Starting point is 01:54:39 And that same environment that CIA creates where all of its internal officers have to be able to fight their own head trash but still seek validation from within their organization, that unhealthy relationship is something that can be compromised and a foreign intelligence service can find an intelligence officer and fill that void for them and validate for them and say you're talented and you've got promise and you've got potential

Starting point is 01:55:06 and we see it and your own home service doesn't understand how important you are and your own home service doesn't understand how valuable you are. If you'll help us with this, we can reward you with money, we can reward you with citizenship, we can reward your children with future residency and with college, and we can make you a very wealthy person, all the things that you worked for

Starting point is 01:55:26 that your country would never give you. Did the mole admit that they had been a mole? I do not believe so. I don't believe so. I also believe that most espionage cases, when they actually go to court, they're not tried under the Espionage Act. They're tried under some gentler term, some gentler lesser offense that is easier to prove

Starting point is 01:55:54 but also helps the government protect its reputation against being penetrated. So this individual, they left the CIA, flew to this other country, they came back and they tried to rejoin the CIA to get more information. Well, they tried to rejoin a federal agency, and that was how the FBI was able to lure them and how they were also able to... For an interview. Yeah, for an interview. And how they were able to get them on American soil.

Starting point is 01:56:25 Interesting. So I do want to share that your curiosity right now is a major issue with CIA. Because they already know, they already know that very smart people out there are going to know that there's a way, there must be a way to reverse engineer the whole story, who, to find out.

Starting point is 01:56:46 out who is Falcon, or to find out where is Falcon, to find out where is wolf, to find out who is the mole, right? And what's going to be, what's fascinating is that we, we have put every effort that we can into the story to make sure that it's not traceable because CIA had several penetrations at the same time during our tenure at CIA. And that's both depressing and encouraging because it's encouraging in that it shows that what we were doing was parallel to what many other officers were doing. We wrote the book, Shadow Cell, but that doesn't mean we were the only two people that were tapped on the shoulder to carry out experimental new operations.

Starting point is 01:57:29 They could have asked five, seven, twelve other people to go carry out new operations to try to ferret out this multi-penetration of CIA at the time. but it's also discouraging because it's one of those areas that keeps these stories from being shared because CIA doesn't want the world to know that it was penetrated by multiple people. It doesn't want the world to know who those people were. If it did, it would have disclosed this long ago. Well, obviously, my research team tried to figure out who it was. And the diary of a CEO research team is not a team to take lightly,

Starting point is 01:58:03 so I'm a little bit afraid to hear their conclusions. Well, based on our own research. We thought that the mole was likely Jerry Chung Singh Lee, who spied for China around the time of the book. Jerry began spying for China after leaving the CIA, then tried to rejoin the agency, was allowed to leave the country by the FBI, and was then arrested in 2018 at the airport

Starting point is 01:58:25 when he returned to the USA, just like the mole in the book. But it also says here, Andrew will not comment on whether he is actually the mole or not. So there's no point asking you if that's... if he is the mole. Have you ever been to China? We are under legal obligation to neither conform,

Starting point is 01:58:50 neither confirm nor deny the results of your research team, but also the results of anybody else's research if they reach out to ask and ask for confirmation on who the mole may or may not be. Has being in the CIA changed the way that you view reality in human beings? Oh, yeah. In what ways?

Starting point is 01:59:06 Very much so. I love this question. and I really want you to be honest, can you please share with Steve how you went from your college beliefs to your post-CIA beliefs? So when I worked with refugees, that was my first big turning point

Starting point is 01:59:24 that humans can be really nasty. Like, I grew up Buddhist, and so it was always like, humans have the potential to be amazing. And I agree, that's true. But when I worked with refugees, I realized that humans can be horrible. And you're, you know, I worked with Bosnians and, and I worked with refugees from Rwanda where, you know, their neighbors literally turned on them.

Starting point is 01:59:49 People who they had grown up with, literally the next day came over with a machete or came over with a gun and killed their family members and chased them through forests or through whatever. And that can happen anywhere. That was the first time that I realized that anytime somebody says that can't happen here, that's a lie. That can happen anywhere. None of those people ever thought, oh yeah, that could happen here. No of those people ever thought that. People always think that can't happen here. My neighbor would never do that to me. And that's not true. And then when I worked for CIA, you know, that compounded the sense of like the world behind the scenes is a dangerous place. And you can't fully, I sound horrible saying these things. You can't fully trust anybody. I mean, the reason

Starting point is 02:00:38 I'm with Andy is because I trust Andy 100%. But he might be the only person that I trust everything that comes out of his knowledge. You only trust me like 98%. Well, you know, yeah, but I know I can get that other two percent out of you. That's why. So, you know, you really, like you always have to understand that people are a combination of good and bad. And while I wish, well, I would like to think that people would always try to err to the good, I always have to keep in mind that people have a bad side to them.

Starting point is 02:01:12 And there's any set of circumstances that could trigger that. Do you think we're in one such moment? I think we're always in a moment. I think some part of the world is always in that moment. What about the United States? Because I know Andy said when we had the conversation the other day that he was going to try and leave the United States before 2026. It's not just me alone leaving.

Starting point is 02:01:34 Yeah. Well, maybe you have different motivations. I don't know. Are you staying, Jehe? Because he says he's leaving. I've been the one who's been pushing to leave for years. Why? How would you sort of summarize the situation that the, like, Western world and the United States are in right now from your perspective with what you know?

Starting point is 02:01:52 Are these good times? Jehe's was born in Venezuela. What was Venezuela like in the 80s? Oh, it was nice. It was one of the world's best economies. It was a thriving democracy. It was an excellent place. With a large wealth gap.

Starting point is 02:02:07 Ghi's parents, her father, we came from a wealthy family, a wealthy Venezuelan family. That's how they moved to Japan. It's not easy to pick up and move a family of four to Japan or family of three and then have a child in Japan, right? All of that wealth that they had in 1980 when Ghi was born was gone in 1989. Just a few years later. Yeah, I think 85 maybe. Five years. And Venezuela went from being one of the most secure.

Starting point is 02:02:37 successful thriving democracies with a strong economy, it went from that to what it is now. There is no shaking that reality from Ghee or from her family. So if there's anybody in the United States right now who is acutely aware of how fast everything can go sour, it's my wife. And that's why what I certainly find is this uncompromising commitment to moving in large part because you can't wed yourself to any one system, unless you want to be available to the detriment of that system. Yeah, I believe in being mobile. We rent, we don't buy. As you might have been able to tell,

Starting point is 02:03:22 I'm absolutely fascinated by the psychology behind high-performing sports teams. I think it started with my love for Sir Alex Ferguson as a Manchester United fan. So when I was told about a new Netflix series that covers the rise of the Dallas Cowboys, it immediately piqued my interest. And this isn't because I'm mad about American football. I'm not. I don't even watch it. But I do know about the Dallas Cowboys, and for a lot of Texans, they're much more than a sports team.

Starting point is 02:03:47 I watched this series, and it is absolutely brilliant. It centres on Jerry Jones, an oil businessman with no football background, who bought the Cowboys in the late 80s and transformed them into the most valuable sports franchise in the world. It's all about how one guy assembled a powerhouse team in the 1990s, made up of legendary players and coaches, and through fearless decision-making, led his team to three Super Bowl victories. And I really enjoyed it. And I think you might too. Check out America's team, the gambler and his Cowboys, which is streaming right now only on Netflix. And they now sponsor this podcast. I've just invested millions into this and become a co-owner of the company. It's a company

Starting point is 02:04:29 called Ketone IQ. And the story is quite interesting. I started talking about ketosis on this podcast and the fact that I'm very low carb, very, very low sugar, and my body produces ketones, which have made me incredibly focused, have improved my endurance, have improved my mood, and have made me more capable at doing what I do here. And because I was talking about it on the podcast, a couple of weeks later, these showed up on my desk in my HQ in London, these little shots. And oh my God, the impact this had on my ability to articulate myself, on my focus, on my workouts, on my mood on stopping me crashing throughout the day was so profound that I reached out to the founders of the company and now I'm a co-owner of this business. I highly, highly recommend you look into this.

Starting point is 02:05:13 I highly recommend you look at the science behind the product. If you want to try it for yourself, visit ketone.com slash Stephen for 30% off your subscription order and you'll also get a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com slash Stephen. And I'm so honored that once again a company I own can sponsor my podcast. Are there any particular skills that people who are trying to be successful in the average life, because this is called the driver of CEO, that you learned through your time at the CIA that you think are most useful for people to be successful, however you define that in their day-to-day lives? The first thing I want to say is that our book Shadow Cell talks not necessarily about awesome spies. It talks about how we went back to the basics. We went back to foundational. espionage, what we call it CIA, sticks and bricks. We gave up all the technology. We gave up all

Starting point is 02:06:08 the fancy satellites. We gave up all the drones. And we went back to build off of strong foundations. And we didn't do that because we're smart. We did that because the terrorist groups that won the global war on terror were using bricks and stones and sticks. And they were winning over an American Department of Defense that had a $900 billion budget every year. We spent $8 trillion in the global war on terror only to evacuate Afghanistan. All of that happened because they were using foundational tools that we couldn't crack. And in the shadow cell, that's all we did. We used foundational tools that proved to dominate time after time.

Starting point is 02:06:53 And there's so much in everyday life, and there's so much in business from my marketing, to sales, to budgeting, to hiring practices, to, you know, annual and semi-annual reviews, there's so much that businesses can take from this basic idea of never let go of the foundations, never let go of your sticks and bricks. What advice would you give to the average person? And generally, just generally in their life, you know, about how to live a good life based on what you've seen, what you know now, and how you look at the world. For me, a good life is a life spent doing the things you want to do, the things that bring you joy when you have the age and the energy to do them. It makes me super sad whenever I meet people who wait

Starting point is 02:07:35 until their 60s and they retire to be free, to try and travel. And that's when they focus on learning the guitar. And that's when they focus on art. And their body just can't keep up with them. Their body can't travel like it used to travel. They have a shake in their hand. They can't paint anymore. But they believed for 30 years that it would be better when they retire, instead of acting on it right now. And for me, it's all about finding joy in the moment today. My son is 12. He plays chess now.

Starting point is 02:08:06 He wants to play video games with me now. He wants to go deep into details about his favorite manga comics right now. All of that could be different in five days. My daughter is seven, doing handstands and doing cartwheels. And all she wants is for daddy to give her a shoulder. massage at night and tell embarrassing stories about my childhood to her while she falls asleep. That's what she wants now. All that could be gone and never come back in six months. I have to do it now. If I don't do it now, it'll never happen. I won't be able to wait until I'm

Starting point is 02:08:39 wealthy. I won't be able to wait until I sell a company. I won't be able to wait until I retire and then try to get these moments back now. So what can I do? I ask myself every day, what can I do right now to maximize the joy that I get right now? Because it's not, just my joy that's happening, it's also the joy that I'm giving to the people who want my time and space, my wife, my kids, my peers, my clients. What can I do to bring joy to myself will bring joy to others? What does that matter so much, Joe? I can see it in, I can see it in your face. My life is filled with people who failed to figure that out. My life is filled with a, with a mother who kept waiting to do the things that she wanted to do, and now she still doesn't

Starting point is 02:09:21 get to do it and grandparents who retired poor and family members who retired poor and people who died early and people who got hurt and can't walk and you know i called your mother we spoke to your mother did you call my mom yeah and when i asked her this question i said to i said to your mother i said um what's your relationship like with andy and she burst into tears did she really she went on to say how proud she was of you but it was telling that she she burst into tears when she was asked that particular question. That's awesome. I'm glad that you called her.

Starting point is 02:09:56 I talk to Ji about this often because I never had a relationship with my father. And my relationship with my stepfather was very bad. I go into some of that in the book as well. And I, as an adult, only project negative assumptions on what they must have intended because that's what I was shaped to believe as a child.

Starting point is 02:10:17 I can't confidently project positive expectations on them because as a child, I never believed they were doing anything positively. I believed my mom was career-focused, and I believe that my mom didn't really want to be a mom. I believe that my mom didn't really want to be married to the man she was married to, and that's what I believed as a kid. So now as an adult, that's my foundation. Gee-he's foundation with her parents is completely different.

Starting point is 02:10:42 Like, it's incredible now because the disparity between my negative thoughts, of my youth, and Ghee's positive memories from her youth are starkly contrasted. And that's why I want to give my children something like what my wife had. And what's your answer to that, Ghi, in terms of what you want next? So when I was younger, I was brought up with this idea of a destination. So I did everything I was supposed to do. Got good grades in school, went to college, went to grad school, got a career with the federal government, it was really good.

Starting point is 02:11:16 and then we left CIA. And I was like, but I had made it. Like I rode that train. I did everything I was supposed to do, and I made it. So what are we doing now? And it was a really hard transition for me. But now that, you know, we have the kids and we have our business, you know, and I've gone through a lot of therapy. You know, I realize that Andy has been right all along.

Starting point is 02:11:40 It really is, you never know what the next moment is going to bring. And so you have to enjoy every moment that you have right now. You know, don't put off that trip until next year. Do it as soon as you can. Don't, you know, like those dishes don't need to get washed right now if your kid wants to read a book with you. Like, you can just put that off for a little bit. So I've, it's taken me a long time. But Andy and I are now aligned on the, like, live every moment with as much joy as you can.

Starting point is 02:12:11 because, to my other point, like, you never know when shit's going to hit the fan. So enjoy it now because you never know when you might have to, you know, flee your house because you're, you know, it catches fire or flee the country because the war breaks out or, you know. Getting arrested in a foreign country. Yeah, getting arrested in a foreign country. And I'm a big believer of seeing the writing on the wall. I don't think that, you know, my advice to people is don't be complacent. just like Andy said, you know, don't be complacent in your business,

Starting point is 02:12:43 but don't be complacent in your life either. Like when, as before World War II kicked off, there was tons of writing on the wall of what was coming. And people just kept thinking to themselves, that can't happen here. It can't get that bad, can't it? And you're trying to tell me something. So the writing on the wall for Americans is that we are transitioning into something new.

Starting point is 02:13:07 We will never go back to what we were. And so you either need to be a part of creating the new America, or you need to start thinking about where else you're going to go. Because the America we knew before no longer exists. And it will never come back. This is new America now. So you either take part in it or you leave. Okay. So what is old America under your definition?

Starting point is 02:13:33 So old America, you know, and I'm not that old. So, you know, old America in my lifetime has been a series of, you know, the government appearing to work together, you know, the appearing to do things, you know, to improve the lives of people, but also, I think, becoming complacent over time. Like, the last several terms, we've had a strong executive that has slowly become stronger, which I don't think is the way that we should be going. but that's what's happened. And a Congress who is constantly in deadlock, so nothing is happening. And so we continue, like, I mean, the immigration problem. Why is the immigration problem a problem? This could have been fixed decades ago, honestly.

Starting point is 02:14:24 Like, decide what you want for immigration. Decide what you want your policy to be, right? And the policy, clearly, I think most people agree, isn't open doors. So if it's not open doors, what do you want? and then make that policy happen. So, you know, I think we've had a history now of an executive getting stronger. For some reason, the American people want a strong man.

Starting point is 02:14:47 So when you say the executive, you mean the president? The president, yeah. The president's getting more power to do things. Yes. For a period of time, it was because Congress didn't want to make their own decision. So they pushed the power to the president. And then in probably the last 16 years, we've seen the president take more power,

Starting point is 02:15:06 execute more executive orders. So whether you like it or not, we're in a period now where there's a strong executive. When anybody gets power, it's very unlikely they're going to let it go. So do you think Trump's not going to go anywhere?

Starting point is 02:15:18 I think the executive. Trump is the current executive, whoever the next executive and the executive after that, they will continue to retain their executive powers. It doesn't benefit them to let go of the office

Starting point is 02:15:29 of the executive's powers. So, geehe, if that's the old America where it got slightly more complacent. There was more power and increasingly more power given to the president. You're saying we're in a transitional moment now. What does that new America look like on the end of that transition in your view? So I don't think we have a good idea of what it's going to look like. I think the current administration is taking a lot of risks that I find interesting. Interesting is a very a newtied word. What is the real word? I mean, interesting is the

Starting point is 02:16:05 real word because I think that he's taking a lot of risks that really break down how how things have been for a long time. So, you know, getting rid of, you know, pulling money from Medicaid and Medicare, getting rid of USAID, you know, transitioning from soft power to hard power. So I think that these are, for me, I use the word interesting because we can't tell right now how that's actually going to play out. Hard power being dropping bombs on Iran? Yes. So we're giving more money to military

Starting point is 02:16:38 and we're taking money away from, you know, aid, basically. So we're making that shift. We're making, you know, various economic shifts, immigration shifts. And I don't think we, I think there's a lot of unnecessary panic about all of it because whether I agree with his methods or not, I think that that we just have to wait for things to settle out. And if something doesn't work, you know, I think he's the type of guy that's going to take another risk and see if you can fix it. Or that if it doesn't work by the time the next administration comes in, they'll have to do something with it.

Starting point is 02:17:14 You know, like there, nothing stops. Everything keeps going. So, you know, I don't know that this, I don't know that America is heading for a future that I want to be a part of. I think that's, for me, I think that's a true statement. but I think there's a lot of Americans out there who this is the path that they want to take. What is your perspective on everything Jehi just said? The transition that's happening right now is a transition where the American people have to decide how much they want to get involved and how much they want to let other people just do it for them.

Starting point is 02:17:50 And Donald Trump is a, I'll do it for you kind of guy. And Joe Biden was also an I'll do it for you kind of guy. and Obama was an I'll do it for you kind of guy and we are electing people who will do it for us. Do what for us? Whatever nasty thing we don't want to deal with. Budgeting, currencies, hard work, foreign trade, foreign relations, wars,

Starting point is 02:18:14 we want to be able to just talk about it without having any blood on our hands. So we push that responsibility to our government when in fact our founding fathers were the opposite. our founding fathers were hey the blood is on all of your hands you tell us what you want us to do do you want a revolution

Starting point is 02:18:33 then let's go fight a revolution together do you want to build a new government then we'll build a new government together that's how our country was supposed to be formed so when Jihe says that we're in a transition and she doesn't know where it's going she is accurate we don't know what the future holds except we know the future holds more pain

Starting point is 02:18:52 for sure because we will either come out of this through a painful transition that makes us better, or we will come out of this through a less painful transition that leaves us in a position that none of us want to be in. And then we're going to have to put in more pain to fix it all again. And how do you think the transition levels out? Where do you think we end up, if you had to guess? I think that we have a solid 60-40 right now. I think there's a 60% chance that we don't like where the transition ends, and then we spend 15 to 25 years fixing it again, fixing our economy, fixing our superpower status, fixing our foreign relations, fixing our, fixing our trust of our own government.

Starting point is 02:19:34 I think there's a 40% chance that the decisive action Donald Trump is taking right now is adopted wide scale, and we actually stimulate our economy, get people back on the same page, and move forward in a way that keeps us one step ahead of our, of the threats that we're that we see from China, the disaster that we see continuing to unfold in the Middle East, the precipice that we have come up against in terms of geopolitics. There's a chance that we come out of that, but I think the dominant chance is that we don't. And I would say that that's not just my opinion. That's the opinion of economists, of economists, that's the opinion of foreign relation experts.

Starting point is 02:20:17 There are multiple people out there who are all saying that our budgetary decisions, our foreign policy decisions, our military infrastructure decisions, our economic decisions are risky. Risky means there's a chance they'll work, but it's a low probability chance, not a high probability chance. And how do you think the transition levels out? Where do you think we end up, if you had to guess? I think that we have a solid 60-40 right now. I think there's a 60% chance that we don't like where the transition ends, and then we spend

Starting point is 02:20:47 15 to 25 years fixing it again, fixing our economy, fixing our economy, fixing our, superpower status, fixing our foreign relations, fixing our, fixing our trust of our own government. I think there's a 40% chance that the decisive action Donald Trump is taking right now is adopted wide scale, and we actually stimulate our economy, get people back on the same page, and move forward in a way that keeps us one step ahead of our, of the threats that we see from China, the disaster that we see continuing to unfold in the Middle East, the precipice that we have come up against in terms of geopolitics. There's a chance that we come out of that,

Starting point is 02:21:26 but I think the dominant chance is that we don't. And I would say that that's not just my opinion. That's the opinion of economists, of economists, that's the opinion of foreign relation experts. There are multiple people out there who are all saying that our budgetary decisions, our foreign policy decisions, our military infrastructure decisions, our economic decisions, are risky.

Starting point is 02:21:49 Risky means there's a chance they'll work. work, but it's a low probability chance, not a high probability chance. And in such a scenario, then the economy would be hurt, and then there'd be more wars, presumably, because if their society becomes more individualistic and focused on themselves and nationalistic, then they become more of an island, people get more paranoid, they start building. I know Trump says he's building, like, he's calling it the Golden Dome over the United States so that he can fire any rockets out of the air if anyone attacks. And then you kind of have to unravel that and try and go the other way, potentially.

Starting point is 02:22:21 Kind of what you're saying? I try to do as much reading as I can. I'm sure you're the same way. And one of my gifts to myself is when I read fiction. And I'm reading a book called The Left Hand of Darkness by a sci-fi legend named Ursula Degin. And it's a book from the 70s. And I'm reading this book. And in it she has this quote where she talks about nationalism inside the world of the science fiction planet that she's on, right?

Starting point is 02:22:49 And the quote is something. like nationalism is not a product of pride, it's a product of fear. People aren't nationalistic because they're proud of what they have. They're nationalistic because they're afraid that something might take away what they have. And any time you are driven by fear, you don't have the chance for true happiness. And what I found in that passage from the sci-fi book was really very insightful to what I see happening across the United States. We're all nationalistic, left and right, gay and straight, whether you, whether you are old or young, we're all nationalistic. We all love our country. But the things that's driving so much of our nationalism is this fear

Starting point is 02:23:38 of the other side. Not a fear of the collapse of our society, not the fear of some rising power across the ocean, but for some reason we're more afraid of our neighbor than we have. are afraid of the real threats that are out there, because at the end of the day, California and Mississippi have much more in common than the United States and China. But for whatever reason, we get so distracted and so confused with our own infighting that we don't realize that infighting is exactly what all of our adversaries, from Russia to North Korea, to Cuba, to even, you know, Bulgaria, which is a NATO country that's pro-Russia. Our infighting just helps them.

Starting point is 02:24:20 And what's the potential worst-case scenario of that infighting? Because people think, okay, it just means people are going to pop off at each other on X and Twitter and social media and they're going to scream at each other and then... Gridlock is the biggest challenge. I don't believe that we're going to be going into any kind of civil war in the United States. We're not going to shoot each other. We're not going to go machete our neighbors. Not now. But gridlock is going to lead to economic collapse. economic collapse is going to lead to very real individuals having very real problems, which is going to lead to an increase in criminal activity.

Starting point is 02:24:54 People will steal from each other. People will steal from stores. People will lie and hurt each other to try to take care of their own. And as that society starts to collapse and we become more and more tribal again, all very predictable, all case studies that we've seen all over the world, as we become more and more tribal, then we will become fed upon. by our adversaries who don't have the same problem. When you said gridlock is the first sort of domino that falls there, what is gridlock?

Starting point is 02:25:23 I see gridlock as policy gridlock. We don't know how to move forward with Israel. We don't know how to move forward with the budget. We don't know how to move forward with whether or not we ratify these election results, right? And in the time that we don't know how to move forward, it creates an opportunity for somebody else to bypass the democratic process and just dictate the outcome. And that series of dictations makes it so that the outcome is less collaborative, less well thought out, less well defined, less palatable for more people. And then that distrust kind of continues on.

Starting point is 02:25:57 We do live in a moment now where the distrust for government is higher than it's been in a long time. We see the largest decline in American currency that we've seen in decades and in the better part of a century. We see a lack of public trust. We see consistent presidential approval ratings below 50 for every president that comes through. We are in a place where the people just don't trust their own government. And I would say that that's not such a big deal, except that we are the wealthiest country in the world. We are the largest military in the world. We are the largest producer of financial tools and the largest producer of weapons.

Starting point is 02:26:39 We are a big fucking deal to not have our shit together. Welcome to the United States. Shadow Cell, an insider's account of America's new spy wall by Andrew Bustamante and Ghee Bustamante. It is a fascinating book because usually the public doesn't get to read books like this. And for the reasons you said, because they're so highly scrutinized and then ultimately decided to be confidential by the, CIA, but this one managed to get through. So I highly recommend everybody reads it. We've

Starting point is 02:27:13 touched on some of the surface level elements of this, but if you want the details of what happened, then this is a good book to read. But it also just gives you a window into a world that most of us live in ignorance to, because we don't realize these things happen. It's actually from doing this podcast that I, that things that I thought were conspiracy theories became not conspiracy theories. You know? Yes. Because before I start this podcast and start to speak to people like you and other guests that I've had. I thought that, well, I was watching podcasts and thinking, no, that's bullshit. No, that's

Starting point is 02:27:42 bullshit. That doesn't happen. These are, like, spies that that's not going to happen. There's no way that, like, one country spies on another. There's no way that, like, you know, people go undercover into countries and get secrets and do all these crazy things. I thought that was movies. But actually, that happens, and all countries are doing it to each other. And I imagine even the United States is doing it to some of their allies. Like, I imagine the United States probably has spies in the UK, for example. The United States doesn't claim to spy on. on the five-eyes countries, and the five eyes have all claimed not to spy on each other. But that's just a claim.

Starting point is 02:28:16 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for both of you to answer individually is, how did a mistake you made shift the trajectory of your life in a way you could not have predicted? I would say that the mistake I made that truly shifted the trajectory of my life was staying with my ex-boyfriend for so long because we'd been together a year and I knew it then the relationship was already troubled and I was applying to the Peace Corps right out of college. But I also knew that if I joined the Peace Corps and I went overseas, the relationship wouldn't survive. And for some reason, I chose the relationship over Peace Corps.

Starting point is 02:29:10 And because I chose the relationship over the Peace Corps, I ended up going to grad school so I could stay with him. And then because I went to grad school and the relationship drained me of all of my money, I ended up applying to the CIA. And if I hadn't been in that relationship, I never would have joined the CIA ever. I never would have met Andy. I wouldn't have the kids I have right now. I wouldn't have the life I have right now. So arguably a mistake to stay in a bad relationship for seven years. But I wouldn't be where I am today without that.

Starting point is 02:29:48 It's hard for me to answer the question because I keep finding myself coming to the same conclusion that Ghee came to, that all of the mistakes that I think about making all led to a sequence of events that brings me to where I am now. So I'll actually give a more recent example that is changing the course of my life right now. In 2020, I hired the first executive into my company, the first kind of equal executive to me as a CEO. And I hired that person because they came well recommended. I hired that person because they had a long track record of success.

Starting point is 02:30:27 I hired that person because they seemed to understand a lot of things about business that I didn't understand. And it was time for me to scale. And it was an important thing for me as a CEO to lead the charge by hiring the right people. And then in the following 16 months, that person lost the company individually a half a million dollars and then put us into debt almost another 250. $15,000. So a giant $730,000 mistake in one 16-month period of time. And throughout that whole time, I saw the mistakes. I saw the errors. And I kept convincing myself not to take action. I kept thinking, this is just what scaling must look like. This person must know what they're doing. You have to spend money to make money. We have to prepare for the future. Like, I kept rationalizing

Starting point is 02:31:21 every step. Oh, this was just a misunderstanding. Oh, this was just a, this was something that will pay off six months from now. And then, you know, that 16 months kind of ended in March of this year. And I'm staring at a healthy company that has zero dollars in its checking account that's carrying hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And I realized I can't let somebody else try to do this because nobody cares as much as I do. I'm the owner. I'm the CEO. The company was built because of my passion for the lessons and my passion for the people that we serve.

Starting point is 02:31:57 We are co-owners of the company together. Ghi believes in me and she trusts me and I can't violate that trust by continuing to think that somebody else can do it better. So I remove that person from their position. I radically change the company. And within three months, we are back into a profitable statement. We are months away from being able to pay off all the debt that we had gathered. We'll never get back the money that we'll never get back the money that we

Starting point is 02:32:21 We lost and all the failed investments, but we are on a trajectory to go in a completely different direction because I took hold of my company and made it my company again, instead of thinking that I wasn't qualified or wasn't capable or wasn't good enough to be the CEO that built the company, why wouldn't I be good enough to be the CEO that grows the company? I think a lot of young founders can relate to that. I hear that story so often. I hear that story all the time. I've heard it for many, many years of the founder that starts a business and then basically gets like gaslighted by, oh, this person's an executive, they've done it for 26 years. So they must know what they're doing. I'll give them a massive salary. I'll give them control. And then they make a set of decisions, which because you, you know, you've not walked that path before you're unable to have high conviction as to whether those decisions are good. But because they are so expensive and their decisions are so expensive, you kind of have to go with it. And then eventually you realize at some point that just,

Starting point is 02:33:20 because someone has worked in some interesting places or had some previous interesting job titles doesn't equip them for this challenge and especially when it's a small but this is actually the paradox of it as well like the mentality of success in like big scale businesses

Starting point is 02:33:34 is not the mentality of success in like a high-grid startup you know where you're like penny pinching. Thank you so much. Super enjoyable hearing the story it was actually much more captivating reading your book than I assumed it would be

Starting point is 02:33:47 and I think that's because of the level of deep detail you go into in the book, which you just wouldn't have come across before. So I really recommend everybody goes and read it. And thank you again for coming back here. And it's wonderful to meet you, Jee, because I've heard about you before, but putting a face to the name is always useful. So thank you so much for being here and continue doing what you're doing, because you're opening our eyes to a world that we would otherwise not be able to see. So thank you both. Thank you, thank you. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say.

Starting point is 02:34:12 The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had. and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

Starting point is 02:34:36 I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can, now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. I'm going to be able to be.

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