The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - George Heaton (Represent Founder): From My Garden Shed To $100m Business Empire! "Work Life Balance Is Bullshit!", "That Letter Was The End Of Represent!"

Episode Date: March 24, 2024

From starting in a shed to aiming to be a billion dollar company, the road to success is a 24/7 mission. George Heaton is the owner and creative director of the British luxury streetwear brand, Represent. In this conversation George and Steven discuss topics such as, why a work-life balance is bullshit, changing his life and writing his rules for success, how Represent was almost destroyed, and why he doesn’t believe in motivation. (02:04) What is the mission you're on? (02:14) What made you obsessed with winning? (02:14) What influence did your father have on you? (04:01) What was your brother Mike like? (04:28) What did your parents do for a living? (04:52) Did you always grow up wanting to be in fashion? (05:36) The influence your older brother had on you (06:33) When was the idea of Represent born? (09:02) Where did that chip on your shoulder come from? (09:35) What was his shedding phase like? (11:31) Starting Represent in 2012 (14:01) Why don't people start? (16:28) How do you feel now about the old products you used to make in the shed? (17:13) What do you say to people who want to start their business? (17:59) Trying to scale the business (19:12) Hiring people (25:15) How do people get the answers they need to take them to the next level? (26:08) What made you step out of the CEO position and hire a CEO? (28:29) A phase where you didn't like yourself (30:17) How did you know you wanted to change? (33:20) Creating those next steps for the business? (39:53) Creating a solid company culture (40:48) Self-awareness (42:06) Staying in touch with the business side of things as a creative (45:47) The letter that nearly ended Represent (50:02) Company lawsuit (53:03) What his experience of it was at that time (55:19) What makes Represent special? (57:33) What is it about Represent that we don't see? (00:59:32) People stealing Represent's designs (01:02:02) How do you view money now? (01:03:47) What it's been like trying to create a life outside of the business (01:05:03) The brand being linked to your self-esteem and identity (01:08:58) How important is it that you surround yourself with the right people? (01:10:25) Romantic Relationships? (01:15:04) Opinions on work-life balance? (01:19:51) Advice on how to run a clothing line (01:23:37) How to get the motivation to go do the thing (01:24:38) What have you learned from hiring? (01:26:07) What if Michael decided he wanted to stop? (01:29:29) What is next for George? (01:31:01) What is the next goal? (01:32:21) What are you good at? (01:35:30) The next guest's question You can purchase all Represent products, here: https://bit.ly/3PyaKoX Follow George: Twitter - https://bit.ly/4cosMDP Instagram - https://bit.ly/3xh1crW Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: Shopify: http://shopify.com/bartlett Uber: https://p.uber.com/creditsterms Vodafone V-Hub: https://www.vodafone.co.uk/business/sme-business/Steven-Bartlett-Digital-SOS?cid=psoc-ent_li_ebu_/brnd/Stevenbartlett01/aws/11.23/SB Shop the Conversation Cards: https://thediary.com/products/the-cards 

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. You know, when people talk about work-life balance, what's your honest opinion of that? Kobe Bryant wasn't doing three throws at 3am for no reason. But there's a cost to that, right? George Heatham, the founder of Global Fashion Brand, represent. Warren Bayer, The Weeknd, Post Malone, Justin Bieber. One of the most popular luxury street brands in the world. When I was 18 starting this brand, it was just me and my brother in my dad's shed, figuring out products and where we could take the brand. But then we went from doing 10, 15 sales to like a thousand every day of the week, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000.

We were making money at that time, more than what we should have in our early 20s. So we're fucking around a lot, alcohol, girls, cars, and we're doing like 35 million revenue. And we're like, we're going to do 50 million next year, but we don't know what we're doing. Now the business is doing about $100 million. That's when the realization came that you don't need to be good at business to own a business. There's people that are so much better at things than you. They can lay the foundations for it to become a billion dollar brand. And you can focus on what you're actually good at.

That was a catalyst that just changed everything. We're building this. There's no ceiling to what it can be. That was until we got a letter from... That was the worst day in the business. It was rock bottom. But the best view of heaven is from hell, right? You've got to get to the bottom of that mountain

to start reclimbing it. It became this driving force that I thought, we cannot stop now. And then what happens quick one quick favor to ask from you there is one simple way that you can support our show and that is by hitting that follow button on this app that you're listening to the show on right now this year in 2024 we're trying really really hard to level up everything we're doing and the only free thing

I'll ever ask from you is to hit that follow button on this app it helps this show more than I could probably articulate and it allows us enables us to keep doing what we're doing here I appreciate it dearly on to the show George what is the mission that you're on? It's just to be the best version of myself, really. Just to show up and do everything at the highest level I can. What influence did your parents have? Because I've heard you talk about your mother and your father a lot,

but let's start with your father. What kind of influence did he have on you? I guess when I was growing up, he had a bit more than what everyone else had in my town so like he had a range rover and he dropped me off to school in that range rover and all the kids thought that was sick so automatically i felt proud of that so i was like i want to be like this like what is it that my dad's got that other people don't have um and the way he showed up with my family and how he would he wouldn't like i've never seen

him drunk even to this day i've never seen him drunk like he was a role model is like this stoic guy that would just work hard show up drop his kids off at school come to football training every single night like he would be there for me and i think that was just like even though it was never spoke about in the household it just like created my own discipline, I guess. Was he an emotional man? No, no, no emotion. I've never seen him cry. Has he ever said, I love you?

To me? I don't know. Maybe as a young kid, but not, not recently, no. What about your mum? Very supportive. She used to sit on the end of my bed every night and be like george you've got to make it you've got to carry your brother and sister like you've got you've got to carry this family on which was quite a hard thing to take in when i was young um but

she just like affirmed that every single day and like she loved the work i did and the art that i did and she would try and express that to all her friends and talk about me a lot. And it was always like something that was kind of, it kind of pushed me a bit, you know, gave me like words of affirmation, I guess, confidence. Was that, was her saying that like a frequent thing? I'm just trying to figure out why she would say that to you versus your siblings, presumably because you're the oldest.

No, i was the middle child um but mike kind of he was very within himself as as as a younger kid and um didn't come out much and he just did his own thing whereas i would express myself a little bit more than him in within the family and i think my mum saw that as a way that I could be the the carrier of whatever that boat was later down in life and your parents what did they do so your dad was my dad sold minibuses so him and his his dad were in business so that was kind of like me and my brother and like me and my brother they looked the same they did the same thing like had the same demeanor same attitude to everything and I think that's why me and my brother went into business because we saw that the family had been

able to do that prior. Did you have any idea when you were a young man like 12, 13, 14 that you would be in this industry? Yeah I did to be fair looking back at it i had sensitive skin as a kid and anything that fit me wrong or like itched me or like like a back neck label or the way a pant fit would irritate me so much that i'd take it to my grands and she was a tailor so she would taper things and take next set of things and she would make sure i knew what the composition was before buying garments and when i look back at it now i realize that that being that particular so young kind of stemmed into how i've built the brand and what it stands for and the quality and everything like that and michael i've i met michael before when the first time we had you on the podcast i think you had eight employees and michael was there as well yeah and he comes across as a bit of a genius right a bit

of a introverted genius what was the difference in your skill set because you both went and studied like art well graphic design what was the difference in your skill set there wasn't really one he was just better than me okay better than me at art definitely and because he was my big brother i looked up to him so like through primary, like he was into like heavy metal and rock and like California and surf and skate. And that wasn't really a particular thing in Bolton. Like everyone was in track suits and had shaped heads and TNs and smoked on the corner.

We were skating down these cobbly roads with long hair and like big DC shoes on and skinny jeans. And I just wanted to be him like until like early 20s like he was he was my idol really and when did um when did you make the decision to apply your artistic skills to clothing college so we had a project where we had to make we had to make something of our art that could sell. And Mike was two years ahead of me, so he'd already done the same course I was on.

And he'd done like a little gallery where people would buy his drawings. And I looked at that and I looked at my dad and my dad wanted us to come into the business at the time. And the last thing I wanted to do was that, but also I didn't want to sit and wait around all my life to sell a painting for 40 grand. And I remember going into the class and I remember the teacher telling me that average salary of a graphic designer was 30K. And I'd go home and I'd speak to my dad and be like, hold on, if university is going to cost me 9K a year and the average salary is 40K a year.

And like, I can't fucking buy myself a Range Rover with that. And I wanted to be like my dad. So I was like, what is it that I can make that I can make fucking buy myself a Range Rover with that. And I wanted to be like my dad. So I was like, what is it that I can make that I can make money from? Like everyone wants to be successful, right? There's no denying that like money was such a big thing back then that I wanted. And I was so particular about the clothing,

like I said, about my gran and taking things in and how we'd adjust all my garments that there was this like upbringing of social media instagram was just starting and youtube was just starting and i managed to watch a few videos of like artists like shepherd fairy who owned obey and nicky diamonds who owned diamond supply and huff and these guys over here on the west coast that were just selling like t-shirts with graphics on and i thought why can't we do we be the british version of that what have we got to do to do that and this college project came up and i

just thought i'll give it a go you know a second ago you said being a graphic designer wasn't gonna allow you to buy the same car as your dad was how much was your dad a driving force behind your sort of um your decision making and like when i say that like was there really a motivation to try and beat him or at least get to where he was yeah definitely definitely and a very conscious motivation yeah and because you thought that would make him proud or make yourself proud yeah i thought i'd make the family proud but as well it was just like no one thought in my family that or even through my friends or through my mom and dad's friends whoever was around us no one thought that we'd ever be anything no one thought that like our

art could sell and we could make money that way and we could build careers that way everyone always expected us especially my granddad just expected us to go into the family business having listened to some of your interviews and stuff and gotten to know you it does feel like there's a bit of a chip on your shoulder and i'm not necessarily sure who the chip on your shoulder has come from i think a lot of it's self-inflicted i think i just like to have something there to prove something wrong or something right maybe prove myself right comes at a cost though it does come at a cost yeah But I'm willing to take that cost on. Are you sure? Yeah. I've been doing it now for 13 years.

I'm not going to stop anytime soon. And like, I only feel now that we're just getting started with it. I'm really curious about this early phase, which I kind of call the shedding phase, where an entrepreneur makes the decision that they're going to do something unusual in the context of their like current social group and the shedding phase i define as like when your family start thinking you're a bit weird and you feel the resistance from your family and then you're like boys from school

start thinking you think you're richard branson or whatever and they start making little comments can you recount what your shedding phase was like i think that was it i think like a lot of people who was around just laughed at a lot of people just thought it was a joke and it got to that stage where then it was like oh it's your dad's business your dad's your dad buys the stock and like like this is a family business you guys aren't making this money and whatever until it gets to a point where it like just completely exceeds what people think that is and then they seem to come back around and then they're buying your product and then they're congratulating you on the drops and then they're your biggest fans do you remember any comments that you heard oh from certain people yeah definitely i remember

there was one where i'd bought this r8 and it was like, I must've been 19 or 20. Which is a car, right? Right. Yeah. And Audi. And I had it parked up in my town where I was. And I remember getting a message on Facebook saying, that car your dad's bought you is parked up here. He's going to get a ticket on them yellow lines. And I was thinking like, come on. How did it make you feel? It made me want to go to the next level with everything over and over so it drowned out that noise. So it was like, okay, maybe his dad was successful, running a small business, had a nice house and whatever.

I wanted to take that to like a hundred times that to prove that it wasn't that i guess and so after you leave college well it's during college right when you sort of start the business is that 2012 yeah when you first start the business and then michael joins you a year later yeah you started selling t-shirts yeah he was doing a bit of the graphics here and there and um I would run them to the run orders to the post office and then at night we'd sit and draw together and then I'd speak to suppliers in China and stuff like that and it just it just rolled on for the three years that I was at university what was that first year like that first year in business? From what I can remember, it wasn't really business.

It was just going to the back garden where my dad's shed was, speak to some suppliers in China, go to university, complete my whatever it was I was doing there, come back, pack orders, speak to customers, do it all again every single day for like the first three years. How big was the business in the first year it probably turned over about ten thousand pounds yeah what about the second year um maybe like 50k i think the third year is when we decided to actually make it a limited company and

get an accountant and how much did you do in the third year roughly in terms of revenue i can't remember i think it was around half a mil. Okay. Because I remember going to the accountants and we did all this. We literally like tore the business apart and rebuilt it. And he said to us at the end of this thing, like, if you've got a hundred grand in the bank,

you should carry on with it. If not, you've spent three years just like doing nothing and it's going nowhere. And luckily we had way more than that in the bank and it was like okay let's let's do this for real you spent two years you know and by the end of the second year you're generating 50k which is like not enough really to pay yourself a salary whilst covering costs of the business no i didn't take a salary for seven or eight years so surely at that point people around you are telling you that you're an idiot and they've got quite good evidence

to suggest that you're actually wasting your time. But I never had a big doubt that it wouldn't work. I've had a lot of doubts, but never had a doubt that it wouldn't work. And I knew that I would do everything

I could to make sure it worked. What did work? How would you define worked at that moment? Like what was success at that moment? Success was putting products online and it's selling and seeing that launch night

and seeing 500 people log in and buy something or a thousand people and seeing that incremental gain over time. That was what was like the driving force. More people following the brand, more people sending DMs. That was it really. Why don't people start?

And I say that because, you you know in hindsight now you're going to understand looking back at your own work the quality of it yeah what you went through and you probably have a pretty good idea on why people just don't start you must get so many dms from people that have an idea right fashion idea or anything why don't they start i think it's that pressure of failure the the feeling of doubt like and as well wasting time if they've got a family or they've got a job where it's full time then to start something else on the side when they've got a seat of the family or the girlfriend or the wife or whatever it is like you don't have much time to go and do something else that you then hope will eventually in the future take off or become successful and it takes so long like it does take i know it's a lot of people say it

takes 10 years to become an overnight success and i think that's true you spent almost four years um from 2012 till i guess no two years 2012 till about 2015 ish kind of just effectively messing around yeah messing around really mess around a lot of messing around learning learning yeah it's probably a better yeah better use of words and enjoying it as well like me and my friends had sit in my dad's shed like all night just figuring out products and things that we wanted to do and where we could take the brand and I'd love to go back to them times because they were great and we had nothing and no one was really watching us but we thought everyone was watching us and we thought it was the next big fucking powerhouse of a brand um so yeah it was it was fun like i don't regret any of it

you know putting these two questions together about like why people don't start and also those three years where you weren't really making any money and you're in the shed in your dad's house. Why didn't you quit? Because as I said a second ago, there must've been so much force telling you to go and get a real job. Yeah.

But why didn't you quit? I think it just leads back to again proving people wrong and proving myself right and like the only other option i had was to go and work for my dad and i didn't want to do that because i'd done that all my teens and i hated it i hated cleaning minibuses and ripping stickers off the sides of windows and going to auctions and bidding on cars and stuff like that wasn't me and that was the only other option i had so it was like this is it this all all or nothing really when you look back at the uh products that you made in that shed how do you feel about them there was a few great ones and a few absolutely terrible ones

i remember the first collection i moved to china because originally i would buy stocking from america print it in the uk and like make zero profit on it but it was great and it felt great and then eventually we decided like let's try and make some profit on a collection and i remember this collection coming back after a few months and like all the fits were wrong and the fabrics were wrong and i just cried on my mom's floor for like hours that night um so there was there was a lot of really rough times as well as a lot of fun but it was all just like figuring out different things and like learning how to do every single job within that business because you know if i'm a young fashion designer

or a young creative and i look at your work now yeah i look at the product that represents putting out now it's easy to see how one might be put off from starting right because i look at yourself and go jesus christ like i you can't compete with it you can't compete with that like that's more than 10 years of like mastery so i'm just not going to bother starting what do you say to those people say look you got to put the work in it's going to be 10 years like regardless of what industry it is or what product you're making like i wouldn't even think about the next two to three years i'd think about 10 years like that's the mindset you've got to have and it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be fun but you just got to do everything you can to make it work so the brand kind of scales up to

what sort of revenue number from 2012 up to 2018 we built it up to like six to seven mil so like 2015 16 17 it was just flat like six seven mil year over year yeah and we thought that was a ceiling in for at the at the time as our young selves with not much knowledge and no real thought in the industry like we thought that we were at the ceiling of what represent was and then that's when the realization came that like if we carry on doing what we're doing it's not going to work and this brand will fail what was the advice you needed at that point you didn't get um i definitely didn't get the advice but it was to just completely restart refocus go again build a new team and and go into what we already knew that was there

waiting for us we knew what we were capable of we just weren't doing it what weren't you doing focusing on our consumer asking them what they wanted speaking to them being within the community of what represent was and giving them what they wanted when you say the the point about team um you said rebuild a new team when you started the brand who did who were you hiring all my friends i hired all my friends all my close friends because i wanted to enjoy it and i didn't know a enjoy it. And I didn't know a thing about hiring people. I didn't want to interview people and bring them into my dad's garden shed. So up until we had a unit, like it was just me and my friends and

we were all just doing 50 jobs each. No one had a title, no one knew what was going on. And it didn't work. But now we're at such a level where there's a hundred people in the business. Two of those friends that came in right at the start are still in the business and are very high up in the business and have amazing, successful lives. So half worked and half didn't. When you say it didn't work,

what does that mean in reality? It means that like, I guess it's all, not my fault as such i guess it's all not my fault as such but it's all it's i i brought people into the brand that shouldn't have been in fashion or shouldn't have been doing what i'd asked them to do or like their career didn't go the way that it should have gone because we were just plateauing at this base of like quite a boring fashion brand at the time. And like we had to split up and we had to regroup and start again. And the ones that stayed have now stayed forever,

which is insane. And the ones that left, they've carried on with their lives. What have you learned about hiring? Again, when I say the advice that you wish you'd gotten at the time before you'd hired a single person that you might give if you could speak to George at 18 years old

and you could give him hiring advice on how to pick people, what would you say? Hire fast, fire faster. Interesting. I spent a lot of years where I didn't hire people because I didn't think they would fit into the brand. And even though they don't seem a certain way or they're into the same brands that I'm into

or they follow this kind of industry that we're in, whether it's streetwear or luxury or high fashion, like there is still unbelievable people that can do amazing things way better than what I can do in all levels of business that don't look like they should be or don't seem like they would um so just like realizing that back back then would have really helped the business grow I think sometimes like young founders um I remember just thinking

back on my own experience we're sometimes scared to hire people that are like more experienced than we are because how are we going to manage them and all those kind of concerns and also why would they want to come here right you know why would they want to come here it was a massive thing for me really yeah why would I why would someone want to come to a smaller brand than what they were at um and especially in that time when it wasn't growing because it's not you don't want to go into a company that's not growing but like now it's completely different the the whole ecosystem that we've built and who wants to come into the brand and like the way the brand is growing it's now like we have the abundance of everyone wanting to join the brand so it's it's now like it's hard

to pick and choose who we bring into the brand rather than going out there and looking for them and trying to get them into the brand you know what what I mean? It's so like catch 22. And I have a lot of Dragons Den investments and these are typically early stage companies. They're often quite young. And I sit with them all the time and I talk to them about this paradox of, it's some kind of multifaceted thing. They are a very young team, very inexperienced.

They have small budgets, relatively small budgets so they're thinking we can't pay an exceptional really experienced person because a hundred thousand pound salary is so much for us and because they don't and also the stuff you said about like why would anyone want to come work in this like shed right because of that they never grow to be able to pay for those people to be able to create an environment where exceptional people would come right so the only way like i see of kick-starting the process is to bring in exceptional people now um yeah that makes sense pay for it now and you'll see the increased outcome later definitely yeah yeah Yeah. Like bringing in exceptional people

will never be a bad thing in the business. But it feels like it because they- Because it costs so much. Costs so much, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but you're also going to learn so much from them. Just especially if you're a small team and you're bringing in people

that have been in there for 10 years and done what you're trying to do. Like the information and the value that they provide just to open your mind up to what's actually possible yeah can get you to the next level like i've brought a ceo in to represent that was handling a 500 million dollar business for him to come into my business that at the time it was only doing 20 mil and to tell me what's possible and run me through different geographies and how products can have a lifetime and how you can maintain a constant, like steady sale of one product for so many years.

When I, we were just thinking that you put something online, let it sell out and then you move on to the next thing. And there's so many different like factors that can come in and different areas of growth and sales and categories and all these different things that just make you realize,

oh, you can turn the business from 20 to 50 mil by just doing this but you would never know that if you were just in your little group of people that you've grown up with and done it with forever and you don't even know that you don't know it like it's an unknown no because there's no one teaching you and that's why i'm trying to do this youtube channel and trying to be so expressive but also um like authentic on the youtube and on instagram by telling people this and showing them how what we actually do and how we do it because when i was 18 starting this brand i had nowhere to look i had no mentors i had there was no one in fashion that would wanted to come and help us and there was nothing like that i could just go online and find and buying a course to build a

brand isn't going to work that's that's the biggest load of bullshit ever um so like you're stuck in your own in your own ways and you you've got limited beliefs and you don't know what you don't know so how do you know how again if you could like go back because there's so many young kids that are going to be looking up to you thinking okay george i get it there's lots of things that i don't know where do i go to find the answers what's the best way to go to find these answers that are going to help me go to the next level i think you've got to research now i think everyone's very explicitly authentic online like if they want to be the next george heaton you can scroll down my instagram for the last 10 years

and see exactly what I've done and where I've been and how I've done it, who we've done it with. Or you can go on the YouTube channel and backload a documentary that we did three years ago that shows the last 10 years. And then now you do it with the Diary of a CEO behind the scenes as well. So the people are willing as well to like give you advice i give people advice on social media

all the time but that decision then to bring in that ceo where did that information come from i spent a good couple years just really like rebuilding myself when that when that plateau happened um there was like 18 months to two years where it was just before COVID started. And I wanted to just like really build myself up into someone that I wasn't at that time, but I wanted to be. Why? What was going on in your world? I felt like I was stuck.

And like, like I said, we, we had limited beliefs. We didn't know where to go and what to do. It was like, how do I then figure that out? If I'm not got a mentor or someone telling me which way to go with it, I've got to do it myself. So it was like, read every single self-help book, look into every single fashion show, figure out like what it is we want to do and where we want to go with this brand

and how we're going to build it up, but also with ourselves. Was this the period in 2018 where you said you lost the motivation for the business? Yeah, just before that. Take me into that period of your life. If I a if i'm a fly on the wall what do i see in in your world at that time where you're like not excited about it not excited about it because we were getting a lot of pushback from press and like we were trying to do runway shows and

no stores wanted to buy us and our price points weren't right and the way we were taking the design wasn't right and that was like painful because it was a passion for us it was our love so like that negative feedback was like kind of painful at the time but we used it as like a reset button and i looked at myself as well at the same time like I wasn't putting everything into the brand I wasn't going like full-on with it I was messing around and like enjoying my life as well because we weren't making money at that time like more than what we should have been doing in our early 20s so we're fucking around a lot and I'm not gonna sit here and lie like we would we didn't know what we were doing, we were messing around. And it just got to a point where like

that year became unprofitable. And for me to sit there and think, fuck, like I've done this for the past seven or eight years and now it's not making money. That was like, that was the thing that then just, that was a catalyst that just changed everything. I just took a real good hard look at what we are and who we were and just changed it all what about you on a personal level at that

at that time you said you weren't happy with yourself didn't quite i hated the way i looked i hated the way i came across on social media i was very shy very unconfident um and like terrible at hiring people and just didn't like like had not anger issues, but was always angry, was always negative, always had like this pessimistic view of everything. Even the weather had pissed me off for a long time. And I just remember reading a few books and thinking like, why am I this way?

And how do I change myself? And like being the artist, I even redrew how I wanted to look. it was like every single day now i've got to work on being that guy who is who is george heaton that i want him to be not who i am now you actually drew yeah yeah and a picture yeah i used to look back at it all the time and just think this this is i wanted to recreate myself and recreate the brand what was the base you were starting from at that point and how old were you at this point 26 i think i was 25 26 i just like had a had a unhealthy relationship with the way i worked and even the food i ate and like i wasn't

i wasn't healthy i wasn't doing well didn't look great like didn't didn't feel myself I didn't want to look at myself in the mirror um you didn't want to look at yourself in the mirror yeah because I didn't like who I'd become and like the I didn't like what the brand had become either and the brand was my life so it was like this whole needs to change when you say you didn't want to look at yourself in the mirror do you actually mean that are you saying that as like a figure of speech i guess a figure of speech but as well like realizing that that i wanted to change a lot so then when when you do want to change then you don't like the way you are how did you know you wanted to change i mean that sounds like an interesting like a slightly peculiar question but i always think about what it takes for someone to

have one of those moments in their life where they go do you know what enough is enough yeah and sometimes i've always like pondered i think i've said it a few times on the show like do people have to reach a certain rock bottom in their lives before they go do you know what 100 and i see this with people now that um we inspire with 247 or who will send me a dm and say look you've changed my life through this or that the i think that like the best view of heaven is from hell right i think you've got to get to the bottom of that mountain to start reclimbing it i think if you just sit around in the middle somewhere and and life just is what it is that was what i was going through um and like i had a girlfriend and we'd split up

and that was terrible and yeah the brand wasn't doing well i got told it was unprofitable and like i was just in this fucking what for me was rock bottom and i know it doesn't sound bad compared to a lot of other people's lives i understand that but for me for where i'd been on the trajectory that i thought i was on it was rock bottom so that was like the reset so you drew a picture of yourself and how you wanted to look did you write anything about who you wanted to be in terms of values? Yeah. I've got a best friend who's done a very similar transformation. And they literally wrote down like a set of principles.

And it's in the notes of their phone. It's my friend Anthony. And he went from being in a place in his life where he also figuratively couldn't look himself in the mirror, dropped alcohol, hit the gym, and has turned it around. And he almost has this like 10 commandments in the mirror dropped alcohol hit the gym and has turned it around and he has almost has this like 10 commandments in the notes of his phone yeah you did something similar exactly the same and i still have them that pop up every morning like reminders on my phone um i found this guy called andy fritzello and he had a book called um 75 hard and it was like a mental toughness challenge but it also included a lot of working

out in there and it was like no alcohol drink this much water read this much of a book and just do it every single day for 75 days write down five things you're going to do that day and i did that and i started doing it and i started seeing like these crazy results in my life just with everything just the way i could structure my day and knowing that like i had to put two workouts into a day one had to be outside one had to be inside so structure the rest of the day around that and then i started learning how to plan my day out better and where the time was where i could go and do these other things and like every night i would read 10 pages of a book whichever book that was from all the ryan holiday books and robert green and

everything like that so i was learning all these things whilst i was also doing this mental toughness challenge and it was like a 75 day thing i remember getting to getting to the end of it and just thinking fuck like i'm i looked at myself then and i was like okay i can see the change and you know when you can see change that's when you like really go into it. You start getting obsessed when you see, whether it's success or like your fitness levels go up or just the way your energy levels are every day. And just figuring out that like these little indicators are changing the way I am.

And then at the same time, we were really working on the business. So the business was starting to see a bit more success. And that whole thing, the cadence of that just kept rolling and rolling and rolling. And I guess whether it's obsession or addiction, I got addicted to it. And like there couldn't be a day go by where I wouldn't work out or I wouldn't eat the exact calories that I needed to eat or I wouldn't sleep the exact, like I needed to get the exact amount of sleep that I wanted.

And it just completely changed like the way I looked and the like my levels of fitness and cardiovascular and strength and everything like that just went through the roof because people will look at you now and think that you know they'll see you getting up at I don't know 5am in the morning and going for like a 20 mile run um and hitting the gym later that evening running a business doing all these things being super productive and they'll probably think he was just born with something that i don't have right like he's just got this level of motivation yeah probably came in his dna that i don't have yeah and a lot of people do say that a lot of people think that think it's genetics or they think it's steroids and stuff like that or they'll just think that you're like wired in a way yeah

yeah i used to think that as well back when I was overweight and unhealthy and like, I'd look at people on Instagram and be like, yep, genetics, whatever. Yep, he's on steroids. I can't look like that. I've got business to run. Like you would dismiss everything, but it's not. And once you start doing it yourself

and you see those little gains and you get into it, you can really change. What is the starting point? One step at a time, whether it's 10,000 steps or doing even a 20 minute workout, that's all people need to do to change. Because you'll start seeing results regardless of what position you're in right now. If you can just keep increasing incrementally what you're doing in terms of fitness or your business or however you like your sleep whatever it is that you feel is not right you'll see the

change over time it comes and it takes a long time it takes a really long time but it happens it's difficult to it's difficult to believe i guess for some people because they they kind of they see the mountain in front of them and you're telling them listen it's just one step at a time up that mountain but they're just looking at the top of the mountain going jesus christ that's a long way away and the thought that the first steps to take are small ones doesn't almost doesn't seem believable yeah and and look same with me like i would go head on into something thinking that you could just go out there and run a marathon within a week and people do that and it and it crushes you and then you have to start

again but it's just about finding that rhythm of like what you enjoy and and just going and just doing it and not not really taking your foot off the gas once you start doing it so jumping back to 2018 then so the business is stagnant during that period of time and you go on this process of reinventing yourself um you also go on the process of reinventing the business. Yeah. What does that mean? How did you reinvent the business? We stripped back all the wholesale that we were doing

and we focused on the DTC. So we went into this weekly drop thing and it was just around, it was just before like COVID happened and James, who is the chief product officer, was super keen on moving our production out to Portugal. It was currently in the UK and Italy, and it was making no money. And I had so many arguments with him about it

and hated this way of thinking that he was doing and what he wanted to do with the business. And we had a massive heated argument about it, and it was so right for the business at the time and i just didn't know it because i weren't accepting accepting of like changing changing the way we were working and i didn't understand that you could go and do this other thing and produce in a different way than what we were doing and like full credit to him he completely changed the whole like margin of what we were

doing um so james was doing that for like nine months straight and mike was doing all these new graphics that was going to change the way the brand looked and then i came out to la a few times and found these t-shirts that i really loved and these cargo pants that i loved and then we started putting all these three things together through through all of us and then i have a guy called stefan who was doing all the website maintenance and everything like that and we changed the way the website looked and the whole vision of the brand and we deleted everything off social media and just like restarted and it just it started working and we put like 300 t-shirts online and we sold 300 in a minute and then the next week mike did another design and we'd sold 600 in a minute and then 900 in a minute and then it was like fuck we actually do have a following

here we've gone from doing 10 15 sales through the day to like a thousand every single wednesday two thousand three thousand four thousand and that gave us like the liquid and also the confidence to then go and create more collections and go back to becoming a real brand again. As you were saying that made me think about how so many people aren't successful in their lives or aren't as successful as they could possibly be because they haven't gotten out of their own way.

And that was me a million times over and just like having that open-mindedness and listening to other people and knowing that it's not you're not right with everything is such a fucking huge thing it's difficult when you're i think especially if you're a young ceo because you're probably already a bit insecure right yeah a hundred percent yeah um like you feel like you should know everything so you're like overcompensating by but then as well like the business was growing so much that i would have only just restricted it if i would have stayed in that ceo position even though i was learning a lot and listening to a lot of things and we had to bring people in because

we were like busting at the seams didn't have enough staff and like the revenue was going crazy and we didn't know what to do with ourselves we're all running around like headless chicken there's only like 20 people in the business and we're doing like 30 35 million revenue and it was like fuck what are we going to do we're going to do 50 million next year but we don't know what we're doing just like so silly but yeah you just i was going to say from the outside, it looks like you had it all together. Oh, of course it does, yeah. For the whole 13 years, it kind of looks like that.

And it still looks like that now and we definitely don't have it all together, but I do have an amazing like leadership team and everyone in the business is like so bought into it now and like now there's like a mission statement and some fundamentals behind the business and everyone's really on the mission with me and like they fucking live for it and love it and like we'll die for it you've you've created a pretty amazing um company culture

you were talking about it there yeah how have you done that that's it's not really i'm not gonna sit here and take credit for that um i'll take credit for like the gym that we have in there and the way we like, everyone works hard, but also like the CEO that came in, Spenny, just he's all about people, people over profit every day of the week, whatever it is, it's people first. So we have such a good like group of,

like the leadership team he's brought in and like everyone who's involved with the business now is just constant like like transparency and here's where we go in here's what we're doing here's what's wrong here's what's right we need to focus more on this we need to do more of this and just giving them everything that they they want and like even though it's yeah you gotta work hard you gotta work fucking hard we're still like we're probably the best place to work for that i know of self-awareness i am i've spoken to a lot of founders that have been very very successful especially out of europe and one of the things that they all seem to have in common is at some point in their journey they developed such a high self-awareness that as we kind of said they got

out of the way of the business yeah and just focused on the thing that they're good at and that's pretty much what it looks like you're doing now yeah and i hope that's right and i've seen people do that and get it wrong but for me i think it is right i'm not a businessman and like for me to be the ceo of this business that's growing rapidly and has all these people involved with it like all i would do is stump the growth of it um so like you said earlier today like there's people that are so much better at things than you and if you can bring them into your business they can they can get on with that stuff and do 10 times better job than you can and lay the foundations for it to become 500 million or billion dollar brand or 10 billion dollar brand and you can focus on what you're actually good at how do you get them to come i think like you said then like company culture

like you see if you see represent on linkedin or something you're gonna look at it and think fuck i want to be in there these guys and girls are getting after it like doing gym sessions together at 6 a.m and they're all out and they're just they're just enjoying the workplace like but that that comes from being being a successful brand you can't just do that from the get-go you can't just build a gym with no money right so you've got to build that level of success and then you're able to reinvest into the brand rather than into your stock and and building the actual size of the company because this is always the issue that i hear specifically like young founders or

early stage entrepreneurs talking about is okay steve i get it i know we need great people but how do i persuade great people like spencer it's spenny right yeah paul spencer paul spencer um how do i get him to come work here right when he's working at like puma he was at puma wasn't he yeah how did you get him to come from Puma to represent? Built a relationship with him over many years. James was in contact with him for five years since we first met. And then as the business scaled,

he saw what we had. Like he saw what me and Mike had together as brothers. And he saw what me, Mike, James and Steph had as like a leadership team. And he wanted to be involved with it because he knows that there's no other options for us it was like we're building this there's no ceiling like what is what is representing 10 years like what can it be and he says it every day it's like gives me fucking goosebumps walking in here because there's no there's no limit to it like

we can do everything if we can spell sell sports, we can sell vintage t-shirts and we can sell salt. Like it's insane. We can do anything. It's not really a brand anymore. It's like a lifestyle. Of all the business decisions that you've made, where does hiring a CEO to run the business and you stepping out of the way rank? Number one. Really? Yeah. My life's just so much better now that he's involved with the business and there's a lot of weight taken off my shoulders. It's not the first time I've heard this. I think Ben Francis would have said the same.

Yeah, I bet. You know, and Julian at Huel said the same and that putting someone in that CEO role where it's both like not enjoyable for you as a creative but also it's not good for the business because it's not your skill set and and that yeah it wasn't enjoyable for a long time and you do it because you had to do it and if i spent six hours in that role of a ceo to then come out of my room and be like mike let's go and design this thing you didn't want to do it there's no no energy. That shit drains your energy. If you're a creative, the business side of the

thing drains your energy. It absolutely kills you. Even to this day, I'll go into a board meeting and after 15 minutes, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm done. I'm asleep. But I could sit in Mike's room and design for 12 hours straight with him. How much as a creative and a creative founder, do you have to stay in touch with the business side of things though? Like you spoke about the boardroom. Do you still kind of need to know what's going on? I like to, yeah. Okay.

I love to know as much as I can. But as well, I think you should keep things away from yourself because it will inflict you with, even if it's like negative things think especially if you're so focused on building this next collection or whatever it is if you're hearing negative feedback about some kind of product that's not working or something in the business is not working that affects what you're doing there um so i think trying to divide them two things is crucial. And I did that with Mike from the get-go because I knew that like negativity and like feedback loops on things that weren't great wasn't good for him when he's designing.

So I kind of kept him just like strictly to design. But obviously we'd give him facts and figures and numbers and stuff like that, but try and keep him out of it as much as he can. What was your hardest day oh um i remember we got a letter from a company also called represent in europe telling us that we were basically done and i yeah that was that was the worst day in the business, yeah. What did the latter say?

Just said, like, they owned the trademark in Europe and we were... They were just going to take us for everything we had. We couldn't carry on trading. They wanted all of your money? More than what we had. And that, like, that was in that same period, that 2018 to 20, where we were just like, every day we were waiting for responses and every day it was like waking up and thinking,

fuck, is it all over today? Is it all over tomorrow? Can we do what we want to do? Is this even our business anymore? Do we even own what we're doing and like there was there was only really me mike and james that knew about this that was going on because i didn't want to put it out to anyone didn't want anyone in the business to know like this was happening or even my family um and it really fucking like restricted us with everything we did every decision we made every garment we sold

um so that that that was that was included in that really dark period they presumably owned the trademark that you were using so you had called yourself represent but someone else owned the trademark for europe yeah and you didn't realize that at the time we thought we owned it um because we had the uk ip and all over the rest of the world and there was this dormant we thought it was dormant but apparently was selling clothing section 25 or whatever section 25 is like the clothing category of a trademark yeah and at first we thought all right we can we'll we'll be able to figure this out let's get some lawyers and we'll go into it in a certain way and approach it like this and it was just

constantly like no no no like they weren't willing to nothing and that was like that was the devil that wore you up every night um but i used that as like i guess again it's that chip on the shoulder thing i kind of used it as that and i realized that like we had to get we had to do so much and make so much of the brand that we didn't want to give it up and that when it when the time came to it and he gave in and he wanted to take money we had the money to be able to do it this sort of dark period between 2018 and sort of 2020 was did that cause it or was that just on top of it that was like on that was the icing on the cake right so the business is stagnant and then you get this letter through someone wants to take everything you have and we spent so many months like just sat in the back office just

figuring out what we're going to recall the brand how we're going to rebrand it and like what it meant if it was not represent anymore and we wouldn't we couldn't post anything on social media so it was like we can't show this guy that the brand does well or we're making any money because then he'll want more and he'll start seeing all these other things and we just we were so in our own heads about it and like all the advice from lawyers was just just always bad news um but eventually we got him to come up come up with a figure that he wanted for it and i remember it was i think it was march 2020 we ended up like signing and getting getting our name. He wanted millions? Yeah. You said the lawyers were giving you bad news.

What were they saying? Just like they wouldn't respond for three months. The lawyers? No, no, no, not the lawyers, his lawyers. Okay, his lawyers. And then they'd respond on the last day of like this three month period. But you'd be in the car going to like Portugal to find out if this production's ready

and you'd get this long email and your heart would just drop and you'd be like, what's going to get said? And then we'd go back to the office and sit there again and try and rethink of another name and then respond to him within a few days

and then it'd be another three months. So there was just this like, this dark cloud above our heads all the time. When you say dark cloud, what does the dark cloud feel like? Fly on the wall again. again yeah just you not being able to be yourself with everything you do every decision you make whether it's buying a fucking sandwich from the shop it's like that's not your money to buy that sandwich because someone else owns the name where you're making that money it'd like get you like that did it interfere with your sleep your mental health everything

um but also but like i said earlier it also became this driving force well like i'd use it as a thing where it was like i know this probably sounds so stupid but like I just got started running in 2020 and I was like I'm gonna go out and run 15k and if I stop that's like him coming for us you know he's like I have to do that I have to win at everything we do whether it's just a run or it's a design selling or whatever it is like you cannot stop now can't be easy going through that with your brother as well because you're going to both be somewhat protective of each other i imagine and if there's that dark cloud hanging over both of you at the same time it's yeah it ruined both of us it ruined his the way he designed it yeah everything and then so eventually you get a breakthrough and

this guy agrees to a figure and at the time time, you know, millions and millions of pounds. If you're making six or seven million in the business and you're saying it's not really profitable, I'm guessing the money wasn't in the bank to send this guy millions of pounds. No, but the deal went through in 2020 when we were really like pushing forward and doing everything we could to that.

When that thing happened, we had enough money for it. How do you feel about him? This guy that sent you that letter? Up until then just hate just absolute hate because we were a bunch of young guys that were trying to build this business and we had 20 employees at the time that we'd probably have to lay off and we'd lose all the money and we'd be in debt for the rest of our lives or whatever just because he decided that he wanted to use that name to sell nothing basically wasn't

selling anything um so yeah up until that day i was i was really upset about it but after it i kind of just realized that it is what it is and that's how things go and and when i look back at it now it really fucking catapulted the business because that's when we came out of our shell and that's when we started really like building this brand into a lifestyle and not just t-shirts on the floor on an Instagram page did your parents know yeah that you're going through that yeah a little bit I wouldn't tell them the full extent but why just because I didn't want I don't like putting pressure on other people um especially when it's not going to affect their lives as such at the time um but yeah we would go to my mom and dads every weekend and like it'd always be a subject that came up as he replied yeah as he

responded like have you heard anything it's just like yeah it fucked us how how do you how do you deal with that because you're a young you're a young guy i remember the first time in business where i experienced anxiety um i i thought anxiety was something that happens to other people yeah and then i remember the day very clearly where i had to let the managing director in our new york office go i had to fire him right and i was sat in my apartment in Manchester thinking about that flight tomorrow where I'd asked this person to come and meet me for a coffee and I was just like riddled with anxiety

for the first time ever. I was like, this is what people talk about when they're talking about mental health. This is it. It's happening to me. I'm invincible, but it's suddenly happening to me. Obviously, as it always goes, it wasn't as bad as I imagined, but it's the imagination that haunts me.

Imagination is 95% of it, isn't it? Have you experienced that before? Mental health. I always struggle when people ask me about this because, no, not really. I've always been pretty solid on where I want to go, who I want be what i want to do and just stuck to a plan um anxiety that that thing that period yeah that caused me anxiety but not not to an extent where it was like crippling um but like i kind of know i kind of enjoy the the bits of anxiety i get because you learn from it right like you going into that meeting and telling him you're going to get fired.

Once that's done, you have that relief and then you know next time you do it, this is how it goes. So you lose that 95% of anxiety that happens before it or you lose a little bit of it. Yeah, you will. I get really anxious going on to podcasts. Like the past few days, I've been really anxious

coming on here. And I've done a hundred of them before. going on to podcasts like the past few days i've been really anxious coming on here um and i've done a hundred of them before um so you never lose it but how'd you cope with it just being prepared as much as you can for whatever that thing is so whether if that is you going to fire someone you've got to know the reasons why you're firing them like where they can go what's going to be best for them what's going to be best for them, what's going to be best for you and just going into it like that. And then there's nothing really

that can happen within that meeting then that can go wrong, I think. And I think that kind of clears the anxiety. On the brands, you've gone through a bit of a transition, as you said, the brand was stagnant at one point and then it took off again

when you made a lot of sort of operational changes and sort of changes to the business model yeah but at the heart of the brand there was always something special you know to even be at six million revenue and i remember back when i first discovered represent and for anyone that doesn't know it's basically the only thing i wear so like if you ever see me out or on stage or whatever i'm wearing represent head to toe i mean it's it's i wear this i usually don't wear this on the podcast but when i'm not on the podcast it's the only thing i'm wearing and the 24 7 pants that you made are the only pants that i wear everyone knows that like you know i don't actually have another pair of pants because there's something there was when i discovered the

brand there was always something special about it and And it's hard to explain, right? And when you observe the brand, it's clearly turned into a bit of a cult. Right. A good cult. No one's getting murdered. It's a good cult. But what is that thing that the brand always had?

Oh, that's hard. That's a hard question. It's really hard. I think it's the fact that it's like two brothers that are from Manchester that don't really belong in fashion have come up and done this really cool thing where they're proving that we don't need to just follow the rule book and we can do whatever we want to do and sell whatever we want to sell and

like it's still even though it's a huge brand now it's still like a small thing where like the owners club for existence like which is like one range within it one range within it where like you see someone else in an owners club hoodie like you see them two guys nod at each other and it's like yeah you're part of something like we've kind of built this community that is it stems from the people that are in the business but it's so much bigger and it's on a global scale but it's still like pretty small and it's just it's like a it's a family business right it's run by two brothers and everyone within the business feels like family. And when you buy a piece of that product,

we're giving them way more than what they expect. One of my main things is quality. And I want the customer to think, I follow these guys, kind of cool. I might try a hoodie. And they get way more than they expect. And that's when they become part of that that cult you're exceeding their expectations exceeding their expectations way more than what they thought it would but for you to exceed my expectations there must be something

going on in the office yeah that isn't going on in the other fashion brands offices yeah and what is that thing that's happening at represent that's probably not happening at your competitors place i think it's my innate desire to just have just be the best however we show up whether it's a pop-up whether it's a run club whether it's the the feel of a garment or the delivery saying it's going to take three days and it takes one day i think it's just my innate desire to just really be the best at how we show up as a brand. Exhausting. Because the reason why people don't do that is because it's easier to cut the corner.

Right. It's easier to send it three days. It's easier to not really care about the quality. Of course, but like it's so personal to us and it's all we wear and it's all we obsess over every day. So it's got to be good. What do people not see in terms of the effort that goes into the work between you and your brother michael what is what is it that people don't see

they don't see mike enough yeah like i'm trying to get him to come out more with how he does things in his process and stuff but just like with him you're seeing a guy that is in a room designing all day, every day with his graphics team. And it's not just him. It's the full scale of the business, the logistics, the production, the garment techs, the guys that are designing all the actual garments and the content team. All of them are so bought into it. And everyone we bring up to the office, whether it's a store or another brand or whatever,

they're fucking blown away. No one can believe what's going on in there. And it's this ecosystem that's been built by Spenny and us as leaders and really bled this mission into everyone that's in there that we're creating something that's going to be like like phenomenal and something that'll last way longer than what we lost ourselves when you've put so much of your heart into the designs and then you go on instagram and someone's copied it yeah and it's your brother's design that they've copied and i see i see people copying your stuff all the time how's that it's good it means it means the design's good

right that's not how you felt the first time no at first you fucking hate it and you think people are taking food off your table and in some cases that's right um and if if it's a brand that's like very similar to us and they're trying to do the same they're at the same price points as and they're in our market and they're taking market share then yeah it's like they shouldn't be doing that and it'll bite them in the ass when it comes to it and at the end of the day it's who's in it for the long run right copying other people we used to do it when we we started i'm not gonna sit here and say everything was original we've all been there and done that i don't think i don't think when you're at a larger scale you do do it but then you see brands that are huge high luxury fashion brands go and do it to a small designer

um so i think it's just it's just what comes with life i'm sure you'll get it with podcasts it's the same thing right you just gotta laugh at it yeah i've thought about how you know my journey with with people like copying what you do whatever has, it's been on a bit of a journey. And it's difficult because especially when you care so much about something, someone copies it, it really hits you in the heart to some degree. It's like, especially if you can remember where you came up with the idea. But you're right, it's an inevitability. And it's also, I always think about how the most important stuff is actually the part of the iceberg under the water. Yeah.

And even with design, I try and get this across to my team that like, it's not even the design really that counts. It's the whole brand. They're not buying into this word. Yeah. They're not buying into that. They're buying into this essence of like them becoming part of this club and like they're getting this prestige and they're getting the workouts and they're all part of this whole like lifestyle that we're portraying and doing and living and becoming. The most important stuff they can't copy.

No one can copy that. They can copy a logo and they can't copy like what you stand for. Right. So you've gone from being a business that was making sort of 8 million in 2018 to, as we sit here now, I think last year you did about $100 million, which is exceptional. Money is now large in your life. I'm sure you run the numbers and you go, shit, I'm worth this much money if I sold it for this fucking hour. I'm trying not to.

But do you think about, how do you think about money now? I'm not going to lie and sit here and say like, oh, money's not an issue. Money's not a thing that drives me because it is. And I think it is with everyone. And I'll speak to billionaires

and they'll say on camera that they're doing it for this and doing it for that. And then they'll say off camera, like, I want to get fucking rich because I want to be rich. Everyone wants to be rich. there's no negativity that comes with having a lot of money and i think that society and the way it's perceived now is like

not a good thing that you're making a lot of money like i want to i want represent to be doing billions i want everyone in the business to be extremely wealthy i want the leadership team to be able to have generational wealth like that that's first and foremost like i like i love that why not but if you had a billion pounds now would you be any happier i don't i don't measure anything on happiness like i i'm i'm happy to sit in design for six hours or I'm happy to go for a run and like absolutely ruin my legs. Like that makes me happy. I also like doing hard things and rewarding myself. And that's not really money,

but like I said earlier, money never has a negative impact, I don't think. But on that point about giving you a billion dollars, if I give you a billion dollars and it's not gonna make you any happier, then what's the point in the money i think it will make me happier really yeah of course dude i couldn't my family would be set forever all my team would be set forever like that in self makes me happy imagine me being able to turn up to my family and being like okay dad i know you've worked all your life here's here's this enjoy it what's the exit strategy per se i don't know anything else so why would

i want to leave how are you going to get the billion if you don't leave we'll do it in profits um no i don't i don't want to i don't want a billion dollars in my bank account like that's that's not needed but when you say what's the exit strategy i'm like when i watched you leave your business i was always thinking like you already had the the podcast lined up and you're already ready to move into this other thing anyway so it made sense for you i don't have that and i also don't want that. Like I love represent. I wake up and it's represent everything. Everything I talk to about everyone is the brand.

Everything I do is the brand. Like even bringing my fitness into this thing is my brand. And like, I've been able to then build 247 into this brand, which is actually just like more of a passion project for me than building a business. And even though like all the athletes that are involved like i'm able to suck so much like knowledge and worth out of these people personally for myself through the brand so me then moving into something else or just selling the business doesn't make

sense when your identity and your profession become so intrinsically linked there's a cost to that right because it must feel you know you talked about back back backs being against the wall um it got if the brand were to go down if the revenue started to plummet and it went out of vogue or whatever they call it like it just was no not popular anymore that's linked to your like self-esteem and your like self-worth and your identity 100 and look there is days where it doesn't do well there is still days now where we'll launch products and we'll have a nightmare with it how does that feel honestly it fucks with you fucks with your confidence um but it also gives you a realization that you're not super human and you can't do everything and not everything you touch turns to gold and then you've

got to go back to the drawing board and do it again what does that look like so that you think about the last time it happened how did it feel and how long did that feeling last it lasts a few days and i'll speak to spenny about it a lot over them few days and he'll reassure that something else is going to take that feeling away from it and it usually does and as well like it's not all about small failures along the way there's so many exciting things that when something small trips you up a little bit you've got to realize like no this is for the long term like the future is this is in 10 years let's look back at this as like a a learning curve amongst all of this you've still got to figure out how to have a life like a personal life because regardless of how intrinsically connected you are to the brand represent you're still going to need

to have a life you're still going to need to be a george in there somewhere yeah and i never really did for a long time past 10 years i've not really had a life not nothing outside of represent but i've built represent into my life in the moment i think about you know times in my career where i was absolutely all in on something to the point that i was like seven days a week in this fucking office yeah even the weekends when there's nothing to do i'm just in there because i've got no mates dude that's when i realized so them sundays where you'd be sat at home on your own no one would be messaging you you can't do anything with people in the business because it's their time off with their families that's when i realized like fuck i'm like i'm probably too bought into this were you lonely? Alone, but never lonely.

I never got to the point where I felt lonely. Maybe a little bit, but I would distract myself with going working out for five hours, you know? Or just putting my headphones in and listening to a book and just going and coming back. And then the Sunday's done anyway. Sundays were my worst days because I didn't have anyone to do anything with like i'd go and i'd go and train at a local gym where there's a big community there for the from 6 a.m till 9 a.m and i'd come home and just sit there and think when's it monday

text my mom like what you're up to and she's like oh we're actually up in scotland doing this trip i'll be like fuck i can't even go see my mom so yeah i guess i guess there is a little bit of loneliness in there yeah i was lonely but i didn't know it at the time yeah i didn't know it in hindsight because i look back at the way i was living and right yeah i was filling the gap the sunday saturday, holidays, even Christmases. Like, because I was in Manchester, my family were in the Southwest. I was filling it with work, like often just like pointless work.

Yeah, absolutely unneeded stuff. A lot of the time it's great and you can go out and you can spend a few hours on your own and write a load of things down that you need to do that next week. But you need a team to do anything. Like, I can't get anything done without the team and that's that's one thing i would realize every weekend like i'm wasting my time pretending to work that's exactly what i was doing relationships romantic relationships let's start with non-romantic relationships in fact

you talk about having to shed people in terms of like negative influences in order to change your life people ask me about this all the time which is yeah you know how important is the environment on personal and professional success i think it. I think your ecosystem that you build around you is everything. Whether that's the distance it takes you to get to the gym or the people you follow on social media. If you're following Joe from school that's out every night drinking and you're watching them stories, even if it's 20 seconds of your day, you're wasting your time watching them stories

and you're also looking at things that are just absolutely pointless to your life. So why don't you go and follow someone who's done what you want to do or is doing what you want to do or who actually inspires you and just clear out all the bullshit. And you're going to be so much more in the right headspace if you do something like that. Did you do that? Did you clear out that? Yeah. I did it a lot of times

got a lot of bad messages from doing it really you can follow joe okay yeah why'd you unfollow me you explain it to him um yeah just tell him how it is just say look mate i don't want to watch you sit anymore so romantic relationships then how has that been? Because it must be pretty tricky with the level of obsession that you have to maintain a healthy, happy, romantic relationship. Non-existent. Didn't entertain it for so many years.

Tried it once, maybe like when I was 25, 26, and it just didn't work. Why didn't it work? I was obsessed, 26 and just didn't work. Why didn't it work? I was obsessed with work and I was also like, I didn't know who I was and what I wanted to be. And it was before that era, before that time of mine where I changed. So it's just, I didn't like who I was. And obviously that doesn't work when you're in a relationship. You got to love yourself first, right?

And then after that, I just kind of just said, no, I'm not doing it. And didn't up until recently, really. Didn't entertain it at all for so many years. You got a girlfriend? Have I now? Not really, kind of. Would she answer this question the same way?

Has she got a boyfriend? She's got a boyfriend. Nah. Are you a little bit, you're an avoidant, aren't you? Do you know the attachment styles? Have you heard about the attachment styles? No, what's that?

Through attachment styles, you've got the secures. They're the ones that just have the perfect relationships. Right. You know, they're like, no problems. They're like, you know.

And then you've got the anxious ones who are clingy, like needy. Like they need like... Need attention. Yeah, exactly. and then you've got the avoidant who kind of run right you strike me as an avoidant um i don't know what i am i don't i really don't know i'm definitely not an attachment one no um and i just always thought it would be a pressure on myself to then and i didn't want to let someone else down because of what i was

doing with work and i don't want to have to explain to someone like this is my business this is my life i'm doing this all the time when they want to see you and they want you want your attention and stuff but now like hiring spenny and having more time and actually coming moving out here i've got time now like my day is done way before what it was at home i would work from i'd train and then i would work from i'd be in the office at half five in the morning i'd leave at 7 p.m and i'd go to bed so there was no time but now i can wake up early get all the stuff done with the guys at home work with the guys over here building out represent in la and then i can be done by like

2 3 p.m a lot of days so i have then time to like i guess date girls and things like that and how's that going hey yeah really no i'm not here i guess i guess i have this fucking feeling where i'm not fulfilling what i should be doing and i'm kind of giving myself a disservice if I'm out doing something else. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs and people who run businesses get that. Where like, if you're not fully into the business, like with every minute of your time,

you feel like you're not doing the right thing. And I'm starting to try and get out. Like a guilt. Yes, very guilty. Yeah. And that actually caused me a little bit of what we think is anxiety i don't know if it is anxiety but it really yeah yeah i would wake up the next day and be like fuck i've like spent four hours with this person that i'm not interested in seeing

that's what i've wasted four hours what i could have been working could have been building the brand could have been doing other things sounds like a lot when I say a lot I mean like a lot of weight to carry yeah like to not be able to go on a date with someone for four hours without waking up the next day feeling anxious yeah about how you spent your time it feels like your passion's become a bit of a prison yeah self-inflicted prison but I love it and and it's a privilege to have it. But I'm starting learning. Like I said, I've kind of got a girlfriend right now. Kind of got a girlfriend. You're in so much trouble.

You have no idea. Nah, it's fine. She's going, oh, George is on a podcast. I'll have a listen to this. She's going to click it. We'll do a chapter on YouTube, which is called George's girlfriend. We'll put it in the trailer.

You're going to be in some trailer you're gonna be absolutely fine valentine's day yesterday and you're throwing under the bus interesting yeah but it does it sounds it sounds like a little bit of a prison yeah you know um not being able to take your foot off the pedal at all without feeling anxious are you happy yeah and what does that mean that means i wake up i'm fucking thankful for what i've got and what i've built and who i'm around and like my brother and my family and like i enjoy being able to just do what i want to do and that is the work i guess most of the time you know when people talk about work-life balance what's your honest opinion of that? Bullshit. If you actually want to build something

that's going to stand the test of time and make you very successful and rich and happy and bring other people with you, it's going to take everything. I fully believe that. I don't think you can half-ass it. I don't think it can be a side project and I don't think it can be something

that's just three hours a day. I think you've got can half-ass it. I don't think it can be a side project and I don't think it can be something that's just three hours a day. I think you've got to go fully into it to become like high level achiever, like actually a winner. What are you willing to sacrifice for that? Everything, whatever it takes. Why not? I'm already into it now.

So I've got to go full on. Look, Kobe Bryant wasn't doing three throws at fucking 3 a.m. for no reason. To be the best, you've got to do everything right. I always talk about the cost that comes with that and the sacrifice. Are you willing to sacrifice you not having a family yourself? For the time being, yeah.

Maybe later on in life when it becomes something that I can step aside from even more than yeah you're going to want to step aside from it because you're getting anxiety doing four-hour dates how you i am but i'm learning i'm learning i'm starting to do it like i said yeah you've seen progress in that definitely yeah i think it's just about building that muscle of understanding you can do other things and realizing it's not going to come crashing down if you take your foot off the brake for a second but still knowing that you're giving it your all when you are in it is there a point where i always think about burberry as an example the burberry story

of how they kind of went out of fashion because they became too popular. What I'm trying to say is like Burberry was aspirational. So lots of people start wearing it. Some less aspirational people start wearing it. People start knocking it off and selling it for super cheap in markets. Then eventually it's no longer aspirational because it got so popular that it becomes uncool. Do you worry about that as a risk factor for represent so

that's like a life cycle right and that comes every couple years or every seven years whatever they may be in the industry but there's always different markets to push and pull on also like represent is so small in terms of size compared to burberry at the moment we have a very core customer base where we kind of can identify them and we know where they are and what they're doing and until that goes mainstream which i think usually happens probably at like 250 300 million revenue um i don't it's not a worry as such at the moment i used to worry about a lot but like when spenny came in who's handling a 500 million dollar business he's like we're barely touching the sides 20 of our revenues in the us that's only 20 million dollars it could sell 20 million dollars

out of la and not see the product for the next six months you wouldn't even see someone wearing it so at this point no but it is something that we'll always think about and always you've always got to limit your distribution and make sure you're selling it in the right places and look we are still like a luxury brand we're in the best stores in the world like it's not like you can walk into a pack sun and pick us up so it's still not a mainstream brand and it's expensive i was wondering if it if that's less of a threat in on the 24 7 side of things where it's more about like utility and less about like fashion because you know everyone wears nike yeah and no one's like oh my god i'm not wearing nike because they're wearing you know yeah biggest sportswear brand in the world and how are they able to tier

a travis scott or a virgil abloh jordan one that's going for five thousand dollars but they're still selling tracksuits at twenty dollars and you can still see everyone in Gold's Gym to everyone in fucking Equinox wearing it so there's there's just tiers to everything right there's a trickle down system with everything I wonder if that's because is that because it's like more of a utility product than a fashion product I think so with Nike yeah definitely um because there's not really like a fashion brand that's able to sell like a $20 item and then like a... Ralph Lauren. Oh, really? Do they sell cheap and expensive stuff?

Well, if you look at Ralph Lauren, most like it looks amazing from the outside and they have all these beautiful stores in like the best spots in London and New York and LA and most of their revenue is done through Outlook. $20 polos or $15 polos, 60% of their sales is a polo top, which I'm not exactly sure on,

but that's what I hear. So there's ways you can, I guess, smoke and mirror it, disguise things and do other things. But for us, we're pretty solid on where we want to be in terms of the marketplace and the price points and we'll grow that way rather than having to tear things to an extent what are the most important because i think most people will be listening to this conversation in essence because they want to know how you've done what you've done you know they want to know like the transferable principles

behind how it's possible to scale a very successful business that also is unique because it's quite a cult business you've got like an incredibly cultish brand you know you do like run clubs and almost a thousand people will show up on the street corner or you you drop something and you sell thousands in minutes yeah um what are those principles that you would maybe say to a 18 year old george or to that kid in your dms that's asking for the principles principles that only you could have learned in hindsight i think it's about creating the dna of what the brand is and sticking to that not veering off in different directions and changing everything up every so often based on trends so i think it's

about holding the dna whether that's through thick and thin. So whether it's not right for that time or it is right for that time, there'll always be life cycles in fashion and things will go out and in fashion. But if you can kind of cultivate the look that you want, that's first and foremost what it is. If you look at 247 and Represent,

247 looks like Represent, but it's active wear. It's not like it's a whole different thing that looks like Lululemon. Like it still looks like represent. So I think making sure the DNA in the brand is very like visible. Where does the DNA come from? Just personal preference. What we like to wear, what I feel like I look good in, what mike feels like he looks good in what the team love and just building that over time step by step just creating products that we feel like is either missing or we just want for ourselves to wear and what would you say about hard work as a

principal i think it's everything i really do think it's everything i meet a lot of people especially out here that have their little hands in different businesses, lots of different pies, but don't work hard at any of them and none of them really ever succeed or they only own 1% when you find out they've sold the business. So I think it's all about just like going all in on something that you own. I think it's hard if you were just a small minority shareholder in something like that then is not really your passion it's someone else's or it's a big group of people's but when people think about hard work they you know and people advise someone and say you have to work hard if you want to be successful people say oh that's toxic. Yeah. Don't care. What, what's toxic?

That word, that word is just, makes no sense. You're going to encourage people to be burnt out. Yeah. I think you can come out the other side of burnt out. Like the more you do right, the more you can do.

So if you're working hard at something and you're starting to feel like it's getting a bit too much, the pressure is a bit too much, you carry on doing it. You're going to come out of it. It's not like it, it's not like you're just going to end. Nothing ends. You just figure out different ways to actually make it successful or you'll, something will work and you'll be like, oh fuck. Then your energy goes back up and you start going down there and, and it works. I don't think, I don't know. I think there's a lot of negativity around working hard and I don't like that.

There's going to be a kid listening right now that's like 18, 16 and they just can't find the motivation, whatever that means. They can't find the motivation to get up and go to the gym. They've got some idea, but it's still on the sofa

that they had it on. Like what do you say to that young man or woman is the first thing to get the the wheels in motion fuck motivation i don't have motivation a lot of time it's actually more about discipline it's about just getting it done get up and get it done like with anything with work with working out with creating a product with building a brand with relationships whatever it's discipline over motivation motivation is a small thing that can last two minutes or an hour motivation can come from listening to a song on your ipod if you've got discipline you're willing to do it every single

day of your life and knowing that it's going to take so long to do it you just get up and do it you don't even think about motivation and what and what is discipline then discipline is an instruction manual like what is discipline to you yeah i guess it is an instruction manual i guess it's a list of things that you must do for yourself to to become what you want to be and it's i guess it's a deciding factor on whether you're going to do something or not and it goes back to what you said about like you drew a picture of yourself of what you wanted to look like but you also wrote out like a set of principles or values that you wanted to embody yeah and then you're living your life by that as opposed to how you

feel every day yeah yeah when you put it that way that that's what it is and eventually it becomes part of them it becomes a muscle right and you grow that muscle and you're constantly like breaking it down and regrowing it and then principles just become your life you know they say like habits what is it thoughts become habits and then habits become principles and that becomes you as a person a lot of people just don't think they're moldable that goes back to what we were saying earlier about like we just don't think that we can change ourselves yeah but your evidence of that really remarkable evidence of that yeah and there's a lot of people that are there's so many inspiring stories out there on social media and in books

and podcasts and stuff that all these people have completely changed their lives it just takes a lot of time and a lot of effort are you confident i'm not gonna lie i still have like doubts about things a lot of the time especially in business but with myself yeah I'm confident. What do you have doubts about in business? Just like you said before maybe one day the revenue stops maybe one day it gets too popular maybe one day something doesn't work out maybe one day a competitor comes up at the side of you and starts taking everything from you. The key to growing a business is making sure that it's scalable. And this comes with integrating into the right platforms early in the game to support your growth. A platform that has helped me and my team to do this is Shopify, who I'm sure you know by now because they do sponsor

this podcast. Shopify is a commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. We recently launched our second version of the Dairiva CEO conversation cards on Shopify, which would not have been possible without Shopify. When I started podcasting, an online store was the furthest thing from my mind. But now thanks to how simple it is to use the platform, it's made this whole process so unbelievably easy. It's actually the internet's best converting checkout,

36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. If you guys haven't tried Shopify and you're business owners, go and try it now because you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period just by heading to shopify.com slash Bartlett and you can get started for $1. What if Michael turned around and said, do you know what? I'm done. He just said, I just can't do this anymore. I'm going to just, you know, I'm done.

I'd probably cry. Yeah, definitely. And I'd just try and figure out why, what it is, and then try and get him back in. He said, no, I'm done. And just, that was it forever it'd suck it'd suck a lot um because i've been since school we've been together doing this forever so for him then not to be there it'd be

it'd be pretty shitty because like who are you doing it for then like i'd fucking die for mike do you know what i mean like if someone had if someone said i'm gonna i've got to kick you out of the business but mike stays i'd go like it's this this isn't really for me i guess it's for him and it's like it's kind of at that point where that can't happen he enjoys it too much we love doing this so it's interesting that thought experiment though kind of illuminates much of the reason why you're doing it in the first place because the first thing you said was who you were doing it for then yeah but if i'd asked you earlier who you're doing this for you would i don't know if you would have said i'm doing it for mike no i am i'm doing it for mike i'm doing it for the team i'm doing it for

my family definitely but if the team myself if the team leaves you're still going to crack on yeah it's just a new team yeah but if mike leaves if mike if mike leaves i don't know if i carry on that's so difficult to answer i had a business partner and the reason i asked that question is i thought the same i thought one day i played out my scenario that they quit and i remember thinking to myself the exact same thing who am i doing this for then like we started this together so the mission is actually me and you getting to the finish line and you get excited when they get excited or like if mike sends me a design that he's in love with and i'm like, fucking hell, yeah, this is insane.

And you just have that energy between you. If that wasn't there anymore, it would suck. How important do you think having a co-founder is? I think massively. I know earlier when you said you get lonely, like I think that is a major block in loneliness because he is always there. And I have, like i always have him to lean

into and i would never put pressure and stress on him in a personal way but i know he's there if that happened um so i think it's a massive thing but who you go into business with is another massive thing and like you've got to be completely different to each other and even though we look the same and we seem the same like we are very different people what have you learned from the bad people that you've hired the ones that didn't work in terms of when i say that i mean what have you learned is a bad quality in someone to work with to build a business with to employ um stuck in old ways and not being open-minded to change i think a lot of people are very restrictive when especially if you're bringing someone higher up from them then some people will always like backfire against that and that's a bad quality and again it's a human nature and i understand it and you

can always try and like change the way they think about things but if they're not willing to accept that change especially when you're in a growing company like there's some people and spenny always tells me this there's some people that'll take you to 50 mil and there's some people that'll take you to 250 mil and there's some people take you to a billion and it won't be the same people and you've just got to accept that and you got to do everything you can for them people at that time however however far they go with the brand i actually had a conversation with a founder the other day whose business i've just invested in and it's the exact same conversation that nobody seems to talk about because in both your case and mine we both did the same thing we hired a bunch of young people

yeah that that were probably the ones that were willing to come and work for us that were also um the ones we could maybe manage yeah and then the business grows and the problem you have is the next set of talent you need um to get you up to the next rung in this in on the ladder they need to come in above the people that were there from the beginning yeah and the originals don't love that because that kind of blocks their progression yeah just that's what they think that's what they think but no it's not true is it because they can learn from them things and then they can step up it just takes more time or they'll get more knowledge out of it if that person does come in but egos get in the way yeah egos get in the way and like i said some people and they're not open

minded to that and they're also very people get comfortable they get comfortable in that position that they're in and they don't want anyone to report into and they don't want to do this and do that but that's life right yeah what is um what's next for you this year yeah start of the year isn't it i guess we're building out women's wear in the brand we are opening three stores this year which will be our first stores we've not done a store yet um and it's something that we've wanted to do for so many years but just finding the right places and being in the right space for it why why stores because people think that's going against the way that the world's going everything's getting more digital yeah and that's what that's i think

that's a major advantage like same thing happened in covid everyone pulled away from their productions and stopped selling garments for a while whereas we were like okay we will take everyone's production space and we'll start selling online and then we made huge relationships with factories that we usually couldn't get in and now we're like the best in them factories and doing everything the right way with them because we supported them during them times but for the for the store aspect it's like we have these communities all over the globe where people want to be a part of the brand and they're showing up to run clubs and we'll go and do one in Dubai or we'll do one in LA like I want somewhere for them guys to be able to come into the brand and guys and girls to come into the brand and be able to smell it and

feel it and touch it and have it way more professional than them just walking into a store and seeing it on a rail or see it on a shoe shelf so it's about creating an area where the community can come in and feel more of the brand and who we are and what we do and then hopefully roll it out globally and then 247 has a lot of focus this year usually it's just like a couple people in the building that are doing it and now we've got a full team working on that we're trying to expand that hopefully i'd like to open some gyms with it um the concept for that is maybe next year but not this year and then i'm building another brand called cadence um which is an electrolyte drink high sodium first ready to drink sodium in a can um in the market and that's something that i've been working on for the past year and a half with a guy called ross out here and that that's because going back to 2019 20 when i started getting into

fitness and lifestyle and health like electrolytes just became something that i was consistently taking and i've not been sick one day since then and I've never had my energy levels drop and I've never had bad sleep and I don't get headaches anymore. And it just seems like the salt that's in there is what is causing this constant stream of energy and it's supporting my workouts. And I love flavored drinks. So I thought, why can't I make my own version of that?

And I tested it out with a collaboration we did earlier last year um and it seemed our customer really wanted it so i was like we'll build another brand and put it under that umbrella and see how it goes what is the goal here i think the goal is like i mean just generally like with all of this stuff like what's the goal i i won't rep i won't represent to be a lifestyle and not a brand. I want it to be unconventional. I want it to be more than just clothes. And I say that a lot recently,

but I just want it to not just be about the clothes. I want the clothes to be a by-product. Why? Why not? No one's really done that yet. Everyone talks about brand. But I mean, what's the point? Like, you know, you've got like you know you've got the drinks

you've got the 247 range you've got the sort of original represent range what is the finish line here? that's the good thing I don't think there is one I don't think there is a I don't think there's a limit to what it can be and what this thing that started off as

25 screen printed t-shirts can become over the next 100 years or so but do you not sit around with michael and go listen we'll get to two billion we'll sell it there and we'll just get a couple of yachts no no like look at ben francis they got valued at a billion he's still in the business it's not it doesn't become about the money right it's not about the money it's about what you're actually able to do and do some things different and like not be conventional and try and just i just want to do something that

no one's done you know why not and i ask these questions you know i'm playing devil's advocate here because i think some people think that this is all kind of like a means to an end with entrepreneurship generally it's like a means to an end yeah but when i speak to entrepreneurs like you it's so clear that it's much more about the journey and the journey you like it just seems like you probably want to die on the journey at some point yeah well you're speaking to like a lot of successful people and people that have been in it for a long time right you're not speaking to those guys that are walking around on the street saying i'm going to build this and i'm going to sell it in three years for six billion or yeah yeah yeah this isn't this my exit strategy and they've just started they never

work no one ever that never works for anybody like that's a bullshit way of thinking you're talking to the people that are really bought into their own fucking brand and they're living it and they're loving it and it's forever i guess and it's a mission isn't it there yeah that's their mission you're on that's kind of the tagline that i associate to you because you you post that a lot yeah is it's it's a mission and there's something difference between a business and a mission that's clearly what you've encapsulated what are you what are you good at are you good at business i'm good at understanding business um but when you say good at business what do you mean i mean you can define it yourself but i guess what people typically think of as business is

like operations finance processes no i'm not i'm not not at all i think that's actually will be really wonderful news to a lot of people because there's a lot of people out there that think you have to be- Good at business to own a business. Yeah. No, I think it's about starting off and just figuring things out along the way and putting people in place of them things

that you're not good at, that are way better than you at it. As soon as we started doing that, that's when the business took off. George, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. The question that's been the business took off george we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for the question that's been left for you is what is something in your life that you assume to be true

but you haven't yet deeply questioned this is quite funny because it's something that i'm really interested in but like don't don't talk about a lot um i guess whether like the aliens are amongst us not what i was expecting you to say no not at all and it's completely different to what we've just talked about for the past however long but that really like interests me um the fact that like there's all these different stories and conspiracies and things that are going on constantly especially now more than ever and i wonder if it would change the world if one of the governing bodies or whoever it was actually came out and said yes this is this is this and these are with us i think it's just amazing we're going into like the world of like simulations and ai and all that stuff now so i saw that thing come out with chat gpt the other day

where they can create they can do text to video yeah and that's what i i saw the first reply to sam altman's tweet said this is the technology that was used to create us and it just wobbled my brain a little bit because i thought now we're getting to a point where we've got these Apple Vision Pro headsets and we're able to make video with text. And I'm looking at this woman in HD that's like 85 years old that was made by typing a couple of words. And you just assume any rate of improvement. And eventually you get to something that is indistinguishable from...

The world. Yeah, reality. Yeah. We might even be a video game. I think there's... I've heard Elon talk about this. And he's like, he talks about it, he said so much that he's had to ban the conversation.

Right. Because you fall into a little bit of a hole. Yeah. You literally have no idea who we are, what we're doing, why we're here. And yeah, is there an alternate universe or are we just living in someone else's head i don't know so interesting thank you georgia thank you for a number of reasons thank you for dressing

me for the last three years because um i think your clothes are the best no thank you it's a very subjective thing but but in terms of quality and consideration sometimes you can tell when someone has gone the extra mile on a piece of work. Right. Pretty much always. When they've thought about things from first principles, they've really thought about all the decisions. And that's what Represent has always been to me. A brand that always thinks about the decisions. And it's different in every way.

As I said, from an end-to-end experience, it's different. And you can tell that the brand comes from somebody somewhere's heart. Right. And you can tell the difference again with brands where you know someone didn't really care about the process and they are maybe copying something else and then there's this other brand called represent where it's clearly coming from someone somewhere's heart and their own unique vision that's why i've always loved the brand um and that's why i think you've been able to cultivate this cult. Because there's something in humans where they can tell the real from the not so real. Yeah.

They can just feel it. We can feel it. And that's what Represent has always been. And that's why I've always been so fascinated by you and your brother. And a huge supporter of both of you. And on like a human level, you're just both just fucking great guys. I appreciate it. And I say that behind your back all the time.

I go, that guy's a great guy. He's just like a really nice, humble human being. And on paper, you know, people might look and go, he has a lot of reasons not to be. This guy looks like fucking something that was literally drawn on a piece of paper by an alien. But he's got this incredible business, but he's a really good human being.

And so is Michael. So thank you for the inspiration. Keep doing what you're doing because the mission that you're on is inspiring many other people to start missions of their own. I think that's something that the world needs a lot more of.

So I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Loved it. Thank you.