The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Grace Beverley: How To Build A Multi-Million Pound Empire At 24

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

Grace is an entrepreneur, brand founder, influencer and Oxford University graduate who defied expectations and took her post-grad journey in an unexpected direction by launching 2 major brands: [We Are] TALA (sustainable, slow fashion activewear label) and fitness app Shreddy. TALA’s performance since its launch in 2019 shows it to be one of the biggest positive disruptors in the gymwear space both in the UK and overseas. At the core of the brand is a focus on ethical, eco-efficient manufacture practices. The designs are inclusive in terms of size and shape range: Grace has spoken of the importance of personalising your fitness and health journey rather than subscribing to what's most popular or promoted on social media. Grace has remained outspoken on the challenges faced by women in business, even in 2021. A social conscience runs through all three of her companies: up-cycled offcuts and recyclable materials are incorporated into products from TALA while remaining available to consumers at affordable prices. Grace also used to vlog her daily life with great success, sharing her ups and downs as a 20-something year-old. Longtime subscribers of hers have had the chance to join her on a more personal journey. However, she stepped away from vlogging a year ago to pursue her business ventures. Grace launched both Shreddy and TALA within a month of her final university exams. She is frequently discussed by followers for her drive and ability to be able to take on multiple projects at once with tons of enthusiasm. Shreddy has received widespread press coverage since its launch, and Grace has recently pulled off a major partnership with celeb/influencer Jordyn Woods in LA, as well as collaborations with brands such as KOI footwear (an exclusive line of vegan footwear released in 2019). Follow Grace: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/gracebeverley Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio.

And thirdly to Amazon Music who, when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you that listen to this show let's continue one of the reasons i stepped back from social media was because i if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure, then you probably need to take this more seriously. And that was, you know, like that was, that was tough. And that for me is my happiness.

Grace Beverly, CEO, founder of two multi-million dollar companies. One's a fashion empire that's focused on sustainability and one's a fitness empire comprising a mobile app, a supplements business and gym equipment. She did all of that while studying and graduating from Oxford University, while growing her online channels to millions and millions of followers, while writing a book and while dealing with all of the things that every other Gen Z person has to deal with at the age of 23. 23. And on the surface, it's easy to understand while looking in, someone might love to have Grace's life. But as you start to peel back the layers as we do in this conversation, you begin to understand her obsessive attention to detail,

the weight of her workload and the personal cost of her accomplishments. And you see the impact that those things have had on all parts of her life. And it makes you reconsider. Despite all of this, she's persisted. She stayed true to her values. She's doubled down on the things she loves the most. And she's cut out some of the things that no longer serve her. She's learned. She's learned lessons that most of us would take a lifetime to learn.

And she's 23. It blows my mind. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Driver CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Grace, I started my business at 18 years old as well. You faced a different set of challenges. Not only have you started your business at an incredibly young age, or at least you got into business at an incredibly young age, you face a set of challenges that are even alien to me in the

sense that you are a woman in business. You are taking on various industries that don't want to be taken on. And that really are sort of incumbent monopolies in the space of fast fashion and fitness and those things. I guess my first question is, why did you choose business? And what gave you the confidence to pursue a career that's filled with so much uncertainty at such a young age? I think people often assume that the first part of it always has to be a kind of, I'm going to start this, I'm going to do this. And I think that mine absolutely wasn't that at all. And I think that that's what often makes me kind of question, you know, the amount of things that have had to fall into place for this to happen. And of course,

you know, there's hard work in that, but there's also so many other things that have had to fall into place for this to happen. And of course, you know, there's hard work in that, but there's also so many other things that have had to go right. So for me, you know, as I kind of said, when I was 18 and working, doing an internship at IBM, that's kind of when I started. And I just started doing some, I essentially started monetizing something that should be monetized. So it was content I was giving away for free. And then I was going to do lots more of that. And so I decided to monetize it via an ebook um and then you know the next year I did more of that and then that's you know then it started picking up momentum I started doing different products and I think that that's I guess often not seen in the way that business is represented it's kind of seen as like a eureka moment then you go and do it then you put it into action then you fail once or twice and then you

get it and that it was far more gradual than that and I think that probably over the past you know so it's probably been so it's been five years since that moment I'd say four years since the business it's shreddy that it is now has um I guess was founded um and in that time probably the first two years were incredibly gradual very much a kind of residual extra income um rather than kind of this big like these are my goals this is going to happen within this time um so I guess in that it's been a gradual process I think the confidence has gathered through that and a lot of the time I haven't been confident enough to do that but have I guess just done it anyway so yeah you know when I was when I did kind of my second set of ebooks which was in my first year at university that was literally because

my student loan didn't come through like that was that was the only reason so as in I don't think it was necessarily a confidence thing I think it was more okay like what are we going to do in that situation um and then putting that together and then being able to, you know, leverage a platform to be able to monetize that. So, and then from then onwards, obviously it's been very mindful. It's been very kind of strategic and that's how it's happened. But I guess, I guess the answer is that the confidence hasn't always been there and it hasn't always been a kind of I'm going to take on this industry sure starting Tala that that was um but but the rest of it a lot of it has been gradual a lot of it has been this kind of more just a cumulative making one decision at a time um which is I guess what I kind of try and show as well so that people can

know that it doesn't always need to be this one big decision. And this one big business that's going to be the biggest business in the world, it can just be, you know, something you're just doing in that moment. The world has changed recently over the last 12 months because of the pandemic, a lot of people have lost their jobs. And so freelance websites and entrepreneurship has now become more in focus as people are trying to find ways to give themselves a little bit more stability in their income. And when I speak to my friends that are you know your age 23 years old right 24 next week the week after sorry um or who are younger 18 19 or even older um everybody seems to have a business idea and I'm sure you're bombarded with dms like this right everyone has a business idea um there seems to be this barrier between the idea and taking the

first step like making uh the instagram page or and is the the barrier between that is it confidence in your view what is it i think it's probably specific to the situation the person the circumstance so you know i was when I was at university if you know I think that there was something that came together to make me do that but I was also at university in a place and in a time that I could take I guess a a risky decision in terms of how I spend my time in terms of what I'm putting together I wasn't I guess I wasn't doing a part-time job at the time that I could have put into that and so you know part of it is circumstance in the way that people a lot of people don't necessarily have the the backing to put behind it or it might be the

the time they can put into it you know lots of people are working three jobs just to make ends meet and therefore you know you might have an idea but actually being able to sacrifice the time spent doing that isn't an option. And I think, but then I think a lot of the time as well, I think it can be confidence out of that circumstance. It can be, or outside of that circumstance, it can be, you know, should I be doing this? Why should I be doing this? And I think that a lot of the ideas that I've had, you know, I'm sure you'll have the same, like, there'll be ideas that you have kind of the whole time and it's choosing the right ones and it's choosing and it's being able to test it I think I'm sure if I tested out my first I guess what has turned into shreddy now if I tested that out um you know even more gradually or if it hadn't worked or whatever

I don't know how tenacious I would have been in terms of actually making that happen. And as I say, it's been like an accumulation of that confidence and actually testing things, realizing they work and then replicating that. So I think, I mean, I think we can't necessarily blanket apply it to everyone and be like, it's because of this, it's because of this. But I think that, you know, probably the biggest, the biggest factors will be circumstance, confidence. And yeah, I guess there are so many things that can stop you, but there are also so many things that can enable you to say, okay, well, this is, this is this, I'm going to, I'm going to make it happen, or I'm going to take that leap, or I'm going to at least do the background work or do a survey to see if

my product would be liked or whatever it might be. I think as well, people looking at you or myself that have achieved things in business will see this very polished product, right? And they'll think, well, I'm so far from that. So I'm so far from being capable of what that person has achieved. But as you've described that, which I think is so powerful and important for you, it was taking one step up a very, very thousand staircase at a time. And as you say, when we look at you now one step 934 we think oh my god like you know you must you probably get this comment a lot right she's like you must be so proud of yourself yeah which is like well it's been one step at a time so yeah and and I think you can be proud of the steps along the way but I also think that I look back at some not necessarily some products but

you know some branding some content some all of that and I look at it and I'm like it was crap like that is awful like as in I would scroll right past that or I wouldn't you know and of course things have changed people's like taste have changed and all of that that kind of goes into branding and product and all of that but there was something you know I've sold everything from you know like t-shirts to notebooks to like whatever it would be it's not what the everything that's accumulated now is the good things that have then been replicated it's not everything gets kind of replicated and then you know you see all of the end products there have been some things that never ended up

as an end product because they were so shit in the first place that they were never you know they didn't deserve that extra time on them so i think you're completely right there is this kind of and I think it's also perpetuated by you know unknowingly often by people like ourselves so you know like I think I look at the stuff I share and I look at it and I'm like god I'm so much more likely to share if it's this or you know if this product worked out well and and subconsciously because there was an end of that journey we don't necessarily, oh, this was the thing that actually went really wrong. Because, you know, it's embarrassing. Like you don't want to share that. You don't, or you don't kind of think to

because you don't think of the kind of like pride in the journey that's got to that point. And so I guess it all does, you know, you will just see the good things or you might see the bad things that are positioned in an inspirational way, but it's still curated. It's still what I guess is want to be seen and to my other point about being a woman in business that comes with a whole unique set of challenges you know I've heard you talk

about being underestimated not taking seriously before speak to me about some of those challenges that I wouldn't even you know know about so I think first I always also think it is important to preface this with the fact that yes I'm a woman in business I'm also white able-bodied I was privately educated I went to Oxford a kind of huge list of things that need to be I guess contextualized um which i've always thought is important and i think that i think that it's you know i won't face half the challenges that a black woman would face in the same position i think the challenges i do face are you know they are kind of often and they have to be they have to be worked um through I guess. And that's been, you know, a journey. There have been, you know, people who have wanted to work for the businesses who clearly won't accept the fact that, you know, this, I'm not the face of it, like I am acting CEO and,

you know, I do do X, Y and Z. And there have also been, you know, it's been the same with partnerships. It's been the same with, you know, I do x y and z and there have also been you know it's been the same with partnerships it's been the same with you know I think people people have a certain perception that's definitely warped and increased and perpetuated by online presence and the fact that I don't just share my work and um and I think that you know it does come down to it does come down to these preconceptions and And I know as well, since I've started realizing this, I have preconceptions as well, you know, we'll say like, it's about a woman who's high up who you hear about, and you're like, Oh, God, they're doing really well. Like, why don't I have that? And I think, you know, I often think like, Oh, well,

you know, apparently, they're really hard to work with, or they're like, whatever. And we all have these own kind of like our own like internalized sexist, whatever it might be, preconceptions in terms of these things as well. And I think that it often comes for women who are successful. You look at them, you either think you probably think one of two things you either think or maybe one of three things you think, wow, amazing, must be superwoman. Or you think, wow, amazing. But like, oh, I've never seen a partner or

like children like do you think they're happy in their personal lives or you think wow but they're kind of like either they haven't actually done it they've just been put at the front of it or they're like a bitch or really you know really bitchy or like a tyrant or whatever it is. And like that is, and I think that when I look at that, I'm like, actually, that's probably the way I see some people, you know, that's probably the way that is in some ways for, you know, for, for me and my conceptions. And I think that it's, it's just, it's, it's what it's, it's what it's become. And it's actually obviously got better in some ways, you know, it's got hugely better since probably like the 1950s and whatever, but there's still a long way to go in that respect when I knew

that we were going to be having this conversation I looked into the general sentiment around your brand and you've got a huge hugely engaged wonderful community of people um you've got this you know this true like I'd call it a fan base or supporters that understand you and they get you probably because they followed you for a long time. And they followed your vlogs, and they like know who you are, right. And then, as is the case with pretty much every successful person I've seen, there's also the antithesis of that there's the opposite as people who, as you said, we will try and highlight reasons why you maybe don't deserve to be where you are, you don't deserve credit. This is something that pretty most of the guests I face um I've sat with have faced to some degree it's it's not easy to take

right because um I know right I come from a slightly different background but I know that irrespective of background you have to work hard really really fucking hard be honest with me how does that feel I think that I think it's an important discussion to have first and foremost I think that and I think I'll be the first to say that and I think a lot of you know I spend a lot of time in the book for example contextualizing success because I think it's very important especially when you know you're presented three people on your Instagram feed with in the same square and one of them's your mate from school one of them's you like your mom and one of them's Beyonce and it's kind of like this democratization of the news feed that makes everything look the same and you don't see

the teams you don't see the privilege you don't see all of the above and I think that it's a very important conversation to have so to be perfectly honest I'd be rather people have that conversation and maybe write off my success based on that I think that I think also aside from that I do think that you know a lot of the people who the people who do follow me and have followed me for a long time know my work ethic and they know that I work hard and they know that you know often that's been an unhealthy amount you know I use work as a coping mechanism so it's been through the worst times of my life that's what I know I can do and that's what I throw myself into and I think that I'd rather that conversation be had and me be able to know in myself why I've been successful and how I've worked and I think that I think that that's you know I guess

first and foremost that's important and that's how I'm able to I guess push through and be able to do what I do is because I know why it is I also know that there have been things that have helped me and then you know I guess that doesn't matter I guess the important thing is that we're able to have the conversations and able to like I'm able to know as well in myself I know that's a very mature position to take I've got to be honest it's a very mature position to take but I I'm skeptical as to whether it's always been as easy to take as that and you've you know so talk to me about the process yeah I mean I think that any justified criticism or you know it might be justified it might be unjustified criticism is hard to take i don't i think you can have a mature

standpoint towards something and equally you're still going to feel like a punch in the stomach and that's and that's fine and i think that one of the things that i wouldn't wish you know when i think for my children that i wouldn't necessarily want them to be in is I wouldn't want them to be in a higher profile position when they're younger um and because I you know I talk about I have this whole chapter in the book which is essentially a I guess probably like the most honest I've been in a long time because it's you know as I've said it's a there's no instant feedback loop there's I can write this and not hear about back from it for you know like a year and it's me talking about how actually essentially I feel like a lot of I became known at a time where my self-confidence was at its worst and therefore I was able to I guess rather than filling that lack of confidence with confidence

and self-worth I filled it with validation and, when I decided to take a step back from social media, because I decided that wasn't what I wanted to do kind of first and foremost as my job, that kind of bandage was ripped off because it didn't exist. And that's when I realized that, you know, these things are the things that we need to be able to deal with and we need to be able to, I guess, cobble together to be able to, you know, no matter whether this person thinks X, Y, about yourself how much does that matter if it does matter and if you do think it's wrong are you going to do something about it and can you still get on with your day essentially and I think that there are people who are amazing who I see on social media who I wouldn't give a single criticism to that I can think of that I'm sure get

the exact same thing and there are people who've been to hell and back and get the exact same thing and there are people who actually have done you know have lucked out and get the exact same thing and in the grand scheme of things I don't think it necessarily matters I think what matters is that you know in yourself and you also know that if there's something you need to change then you can change that like if you want to if I guess sometimes when something like other things you know like hit a nerve or whatever like do you need to change that do you need to address that do you need to do better um so I think that that's that's kind of how I tackle it but of course no there's not like a something in me where I you know get a message that says you look ugly and I'm like thank you like that's okay that doesn't happen like that's not like a something in me where I, you know, get a message that says you look ugly. And I'm like, thank you.

That doesn't happen. That's not an initial reaction. But I think that you have to be you have to be rational when we're not designed to be taking this much feedback and criticism. Or even if it's not criticism, if someone like I say the whole time, oh, I don't like that color. I don't like like clothing or like whatever it might be to the designer that might like rip them to shreds or whatever it's not mean it's an opinion and we're not designed to be able to take that in so I think that there has to be a sort of rationalization on a human part or on your like if you are in that position you have a duty to yourself to learn how to deal with that or to remove yourself from the situation otherwise it's just untenable I guess um you've got you know two businesses two key businesses

and um when you run a business when you're young irrespective of age you you undergo a couple of things real like unexpected chaos at any given moment then also a tremendous amount of sacrifice I actually wanted to start on the sacrifice piece because I don't think people as you said earlier get to fully see the full picture of sacrifice and cost yeah um both personal and professional whatever so talk to me about some of the sacrifice that even you didn't expect before you got into business and before your business grew um I think that at the same time as I kind of benefited hugely from the, you know, having money at university, for example, I also went to university expecting one thing and then actually spent it essentially getting up at X hour working on university stuff because I never, ever, ever wanted to give them an excuse to think that I wasn't concentrating fully on my university and then working all the way essentially way into the

night to get the other stuff done and I also you know that comes with being high profile that comes with all of these things so I guess one of those things was very much like there was the time and the life experience and all of that that because things took off quickly at one stage even if it wasn't like it wasn't that the businesses took off you know the businesses have done much more over the past year and a half or whatever when I haven't been at uni but at that point you know the the high profile lists all of that that came with I guess different to what I was expecting um and um or not what I was expecting. And, or not what I was expecting, I wasn't expecting it at all.

And therefore there was kind of, I guess, you know, something that I really did want for myself, I didn't get. But I also got, you know, a lot more in another way, I guess. What did you want for yourself? Well, I just wanted the university experience, really. And I think that I was so, once this this took off I'm a very determined person and I I get I get a vision and I'll work for it day and night and I think that I actually got to I think in that instance you it's kind of like a fork in the road and you decide okay well I'm taking this one and I'm going to concentrate on this I'm going to grow the businesses I'm going

to all of that and then I think as well I saw the deadline for that as my end of university. Cause if I had to, if it wasn't as big as I wanted it to be by that time, or if it wasn't, you know, whatever it might be, I was going to choose. I was going to go into a normal career.

And I think that, so I was so dedicated to making that happen rather than, you know, I wanted to grow up too quickly essentially I'm 23 like I you know I'm and I think that a lot of that has been I guess in terms of people's whether when it's people who meet you their kind of perception of you or whatever it might be and so I think that was something where it was a choice I'd make again and again but it was I guess the sacrifice that I wasn't expecting to make.

And I guess that comes with everything that comes with, you know, relationships, with friends, with time in general, with, you know, time to yourself, time to whatever. I think having a business in a way, and I'm sure some people will disagree, but having a business in a way is like having a baby. And you can't just, you can't just like up and do whatever you can't you can't say no when a crisis comes in at 1am you can't like that is what it is you get

all the other benefits with those conditions and so I think that you know that's kind of a constant one like you can't you can't say oh I'm gonna quit this and go and do this for two years because especially when you've got x amount of people working for you you've got all of their salaries you've got all of their pensions you've got you know like it's it's a huge responsibility and the buck stops with you right yeah and and and that's you know it's it's it's an important one do you sometimes I reflect on uh the business journey and just how like obsessive it is and all consuming it is and I think it's a bit of a disease I'm like why did I choose this to like it's almost like masochistic

yeah like obviously it's got the most amazing benefits but it is also like I remember what I remember my friend I can't remember I think I really we'd agreed to just just lock down things we'd agreed to watch a movie on a Sunday night. And then the scene came up and I was just like, you know what? I'm going to like, I'm going to do this. I'm just going to work harder. So it's just going to be easier for this week. And it was like tiny sacrifice. And my housemate turned around to me and she was like, what is the point of, were you working this hard for this many years? If you can't watch a movie on a Sunday night? And I was like, yeah, as as in like you're not wrong like I'm still gonna do it but like you know you're

not wrong like it's what is the answer to that question though so say because I've muddled over this as well if I'm working obsessively every day at what point does is enough yeah well I think that it all comes with what you want and I think that you know I've I've listened to you before and I've listened to you kind of saying that, you know, there came a point that you realized that it wasn't about money. So like, what was it about? And I think for me, there's the kind of aspect of it's for the businesses. And I have these really clear dreams for the businesses that result in dreams for me as well sure but I think that that is I think I'll come to a you know if I decide to sell a business or whatever I'll come to that road there where I'm like okay what is it for now and I think that knowing myself anyway I know pre-business post-business I'm sure I am like that so whether it's this or whether it's something else or you know and i hope i can channel that into something else at some point that doesn't require every inch of your being um i know i'm like that so it's kind of like yeah sure it might be for nothing but it's

i'm gonna do it anyway like there doesn't need to be reasoning behind the fact that this is how i am i have always been i've always yeah I've always been like this I've always been kind of like I'm gonna make this happen like whether that's kind of through like coordinating all the babysitting jobs that you got in one night and allocating them out to your friends and stuff and or you know like taking essentially like any job ever that like that I could then you know that's all that's what I'm like so I kind of know that where did that come from though I I think probably a few things I know that everyone in my family is a very hard worker and that is very it's kind of almost like an like an anxiety to do well even though like my parents were not

pushy at all i think people assume you know especially if you go to hoxford or like whatever but the least pushy people ever i think that actually it all i kind of was discussing this with my sister the other day i was like where does it come from like it comes from them clearly because they had it in themselves but you know like they both my parents had careers when I was growing up I lived with my mum just me my mum and we had a tenant who lived in my mum's house and my mum was working pretty much all the time incredibly like I respect her so much for it because I also never grew up thinking like oh it's weird for a woman to have a career and have four children and like whatever she just you know she worked all the time and um and she loved it she loved it and she gave her like everything to it and so I think I spent a lot of I spent a lot of time kind of in that

situation knowing that I also wanted to love what I do and I think there is this misled like perception that you know like if you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life blah blah blah blah but I also think that there is this like it's a flow state isn't it like you have something that matches your challenge and your skill level and you get more fulfillment than you'll get from anything and I think I was so I used to say I remember saying like I think it was like when I was like 15 16 and I would take work experience from anyone every single holiday and every single school holiday and I remember my teacher saying like,

you should probably choose one of the avenues and then you can do like more within that or something. And I remember just saying to them like, I'm so terrified that I'll be stuck in something that I hate. And it was like a constant like, and I don't think it's necessarily good. I don't think it was necessarily healthy. I was constantly so terrified that, you know,

the same was for university, the same was for whatever. Like I didn't get into Oxford the first time I applied I I and I went again like I literally that same day I went online and I found out what I could do for a year that would earn myself some money to be able to not be I guess studying that year and went to um and applied for the IBM future scheme which is the one they do for gap year students that that literal same day and then applied for the IBM future scheme, which is the one they do for gap year students that literal same day and then applied again the next year. And like, as in, I'm very like that. It's very set on kind of one thing.

And if that thing then doesn't work, I either want to do it again. Like it's really clear to me. I either want to do it again or I'm like, that wasn't right. And then I move on. But I know that I'm very straight out and very like I will not stop until like yeah you get it right what's the uh going back to your the business and the chaos and the sacrifice is there one day in your business career over the last couple of years

which was your worst day um I mean or your toughest challenge I think my toughest challenge in general was there was this stupid stupid time that I'm constantly praised for that was the worst decision I've ever made in my life which was that I was coming up to my university finals I was launching a business to I think it was a month before my university finals yeah I was launching a business to, I think it was a month before my university finals. Yeah, I was launching a business beginning of May, the 7th of May, if I'm right. And I finished my finals on the 6th of June. Now that meant that 40,000 words were due and five three-hour exams within the space of two weeks.

And I also wanted to launch my business and I also wanted to do well at university I'd been working with that for three years um but I persuaded people as well I'd persuaded people to spend money on this launch I'd persuaded people to you know so I was going to do it right people were like you're amazing like this is so great like how can you do this and I'm like you were like it's not wise it's not smart like it's not like this isn't a competition for how many boxes you can tick within a small space of time that is like a fast track towards burnout and either something going incredibly wrong or whatever and i think that that you know like as i've said work was always a coping mechanism for me so it's always kind of like well if when

if we have to do it now or we like run out of money before launch and we're doing it now and i don't care like i can work x y and z and I actually have like a whole like chapter in a book where I'm essentially talking about like that was the time that I felt most validated in being a hard worker and I felt like because I was I was in the library at 3 a.m and I was also on the phone with the suppliers at you know 7 a.m the next morning and all of x y and z and people could see it and I was living it I was like hustling the hustle. And that was when I was like, wow, like this is it. Like I am the hard worker, like with capital H and W and like, this is me. And I think that that is like, that kind of like sums it all up in the way that that was a huge challenge or some incredibly

unwise challenge at the time and yet why did that feel like the time i was doing it right so that's actually that's a lot of what spurred on essentially why i was writing the book because it was kind of like how can that be the epitome of hard work when that is also the epitome of not being productive like that's like completely unproductive um and not useful for anyone you're not going to be nice with the people you deal with at the time you have a higher chance of actually like messing things up and all of that and yet why was that the one time that i felt like truly validated for what i was doing and you were broadcasting that and i was broadcasting that and

there'll be people i'm sure who see me now who are like but she you know did this and that and like yeah sure i work really hard i really do but there are some things that it's kind of like I address that and what like as I said to you while I was writing the book there were so many things that I noticed I was like I'm the problem here as well I perpetuate this how can I criticize a culture of the hustle culture that I benefit from at the same time? How can I do that? And I think that that's what made me, you know, that's why I say that this book was such like a soul searching process for me because I was like, you know, what is that? Why is that? Like, is that because I need the validation? Is that because we all need the validation now? Because hard work has become so unobtainable

because it has to be doing this job that job like everything in between also being amazing at self-care also doing like x y and z and I think that that's when I was kind of like okay this is a challenge but it's not only a challenge it was a silly thing to do so it's not even like a you know there are things you have to do there are crises you have to deal with and all of that that will be a challenge and will also be incredibly rewarding and all of that and most of them are but I think there are other things that you look at and you're like yep this was a challenge and it also didn't have to happen let's not do that again you mentioned burnout yeah um and I remember reading a quote in a in a piece that you know an interview that you did where you

talked about mental health generally and how you know you'd reflected that maybe you weren't representing mental health in the right way I think'd reflected that maybe you weren't representing mental health in the right way I think you said um you were giving advice but it didn't apply to yourself in terms of like talking and being open about it I want to know about a long way back I've just been digging through everything yeah I just wanted to get a flavor for everything oh yeah no I appreciate it on everything but talk to me about your mental health and the journey you've been on with your mental health since you were, you know, 18. Um, well, as I've said, I think probably a, one of the reasons that I think I, you know,

in that, in that post to give context, I guess I said that I am one of the biggest advocates for people talking about their mental health. We have mental health days, like within our, the company, like, you know, you can take days off and you can literally just take a duvet day and it could be because, you know, because of your mental health days like within our the company like you know you can take days off and you can literally just take a duvet day and it could be because you know because of your mental health whatever it might be and I'm the biggest advocate for that and talking about it and everything and then as soon as it came to me no like that was not it's not the same case like I'm not going to talk about it I'm not going to deal with it and it actually got to a point that I was having seizures essentially um from something really horrible that I went to that was through that was essentially ended up giving

me PTSD that presented in seizures and obviously I was having symptoms up to the point of the seizures but I only took it seriously when it was a physical symptom like when it came to the point that I was like okay like I'm being hospitalized now like this is not ideal at all and that was the thing that made me slow down and that was the thing that maybe or not even slow down I don't even think I necessarily hugely slowed down after that but it was kind of like okay this is real and this is just as like if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure then you probably need to take this more seriously. And that was, you know, like that was, that was tough. That was right before my

third year at university that that started and everything up until then, like I've been a, I think I have this like really toxic mental health attitude within myself that doesn't prioritize it. That isn't kind kind of that kind of sees it as weakness even though that's the last thing that I'd see you know in any of my friends who suffer from depression or anxiety or like whatever it might be and it's completely different it's like we don't get the same treatment like I'll give you know I'll understand that and I'll see that and I won't do that and I'm sure there are lots of people who are the exact same you're not being compassionate to yourself exactly and I think that that's another reason why I really needed to like look inside myself and be

able to evaluate that and be able to look at like why like why is that the case like why do you feel so undeserving of the justification for like you know having bad mental health at one time and I've been lucky that you know apart from this which was a result of specific trauma I've generally been you know I've had generally good mental health and I've you know been able to deal with I guess you know like I think a lot of the way that mental health is presented is really damaging in that you know people do i've had friends who've kind of said like oh yeah but you know i don't want to take meds from my depression or whatever and everyone has different views on it but it's kind of being like well any other chemical imbalance in your brain you would

because you'd say like hey i need this to offset this or i need insulin to offset this or whatever and yet it's like a it's a thing it's like a you know what's it what's she called like mrs trunchbull you know from from matilda that you like have in your brain that's like you do not like get this or like you do not like deserve to have that compassion or whatever it might be so i think like i've had a and i think i'm what's so strange is that i don't know about you but i'm able to talk about mental health really openly and I literally had so I thought it was really important for me to um I think as a business owner I think it's probably important for people I mean I think it's important for everyone but for business owners I think it's

important for everyone to get therapy because you're not meant to go through that much chaos all the time like you're not meant to have three messages a day that could kill your business and yet you do and you're like and then you're like the next like 15 minutes later you're not meant to have three messages a day that could kill your business and yet you do and you're like and then you're like the next like 15 minutes later you're like so what's next like you're fine you get you get like programmed to get up again as like second nature and then you never deal with things so i kind of i kind of decided i was like i'm gonna get like i'm just gonna have it once a week and it's just gonna be literally like an offload and i sat in it for kind of like two months and i was like i'm like i haven't cried yet and I'm a crier so I'm clearly talking about my mental health stuff as if I'm doing an interview and if I'm like you know just able to

talk about it like yeah like I think it's important and like this is and it's like this is everything that's okay to talk about this is everything that's not and I won't address that and I think that that's something for me to I guess to deal with and I think that the important thing is as an owner of a business that has people within it and then you know and as someone with a platform and all of that all of those things make it really important for me to treat mental health properly both for myself and for other people but I don't think I do but But you are setting a really remarkable, you know, what you said there about being a business owner

and it's important for you to get therapy. One of the other points that I think of good that you'll be doing by doing that is you're setting a precedence for all of your employees that even me as the boss, you know, and that creates a safe space for other people.

And in my business, it was the same. So we made mental health therapy opt out. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, so like, and it meant that the men who were hiding in the back that didn't want it to be tough guys, whatever, you know, I saw that. Yeah, so like, and it meant that the men who were hiding in the back that didn't want it to be tough guys or whatever, you know, I was going. And I told the directors of the business,

my co-founder to go as well. And that week, my co-founder Dom said he got something like 11 messages from men in the business that had been suffering from mental health, but just had never spoken about it. And he became like the de facto male therapist in our company for that reason. What I wanted to go back to you on is the point, know you talked about this build-up that you had which culminated in

you being hospitalized with your mental health um i had a i had a guest on the podcast a couple of couple of weeks ago and she was uh she's a kayaker and she something something changed in her life and it meant and she wasn't listening to her body and ultimately she ended up getting chronic fatigue syndrome where she went from being a kayaker that could kayak for two hours to not being able to lift up her hands and she said there were these warning signs in my life that I just ignored until my body went listen if you're not going to listen to me then we're shutting down and it sounded very similar to what you were saying so my question is what are those what were those warning signs that you were in some respects respects, by the sounds of it, ignoring?

Yeah, I won't talk about specifically from that perspective. I do think it's important to talk about in terms of burnout as a whole. So when we, I think the same thing applies to kind of like the way that this kind of productivity like rat race comes across now is that you essentially need to be working as fast as you possibly can it's not productivity at all it's working i guess if you look at productivity like the definition is that you get the most amount done in the least amount of time but that has fine like that taken as one and then that's multiplied so you're getting the

most amount done in the least amount of time so that you can do the most amount in the least amount of time again rather than being able to just you know do that and move on and fine that's good like we should be you know we should be efficient we should be effective all of these things are important but i think that you know it's also the equivalent of expecting someone like that or a marathon runner ultra marathon runner to sprint for the whole marathon. Like it's ineffective. They're not going to win. They're also probably going to get injured. You know, there's nothing beneficial about it. And we see it from a physical perspective and we completely ignore it from a mental perspective or from a work perspective. And I think that that's why it's so important to talk about, especially you and me, people who are essentially will be seen in some way as like what hard work looks like that results in success or whatever it might be.

The acknowledgement that working hard does not mean working all the time and like having it all does not mean like doing it all and all of these various different things that actually are important to look at from ourselves as well because like as I said like I realized that actually probably I was perpetuating a lot more than I meant to and that was why I then ended up needing to perpetuate things because you know I constantly wanted to show people that I was actually working hard which actually all it gave off was this is how what hard work looks like and therefore there's you know it's probably stopping a whole generation of people who actually want to do something but see something see you know i'm not that type of person i actually don't get up in the morning and want to read like some disgustingly boring like non-fiction book and like but actually being able to acknowledge that and find some middle ground and find some realization that it doesn't all like it's not

going to be the same for you as it is for someone else and the same goes for hard work um and i think for for me you know i now and i think largely because of having written this book i now see when i'm lagging i now see when i need a rest i now see you know I'm able to construct a working week that essentially you know is able I'm able to be CEO at both companies and I'm able to do all my work and I'm able to do my own work too that isn't just responsive to other people's work and then I think you know and I'm able to culminate that in a way that is i guess a livable way of me working and there have been times where it's not that there's been times where it's you know like hell to leather and doing everything possible but that's a needs must amount of time that is not representative of

what hard work looks like and then being able to recognize that within myself and say like that's okay like you're not weak because you have to sleep like you're not weak because you have to you know like sit back sometimes or your creativity just isn't coming out you're just like a human or not even like even machines can't do that like if you had a machine like working like it would go into override or if it was set on the wrong thing or if it was you know like doing too many things at once it would go into override so like we don't it's not even that we don't realize we're humans we don't realize like limits at all we just have no boundaries and i think that that's what's important there's been a there's been a big shift i think over the last i'd say two years there's been a huge conversation around

burnout right and it's gotten to the point i did a post about this the other day but it's gotten to a point where it i actually feel bad talking about working hard and I played around with that idea because um on one hand you can be deceitful in the sense that you say like I work 24 hours a day and I never sleep and on the other hand you can be really deceitful and saying listen hard work doesn't matter self-care and like yeah yeah yeah sit back and put on a face mask yeah like I don't want to lie to you I still work really hard but obviously there's nuance and balance and sometimes I don't have good days and balance and sometimes I don't have good days and something yeah but I don't know anyone that's really successful that doesn't

work hard I don't know any athlete 100% I think what I even realized that was after I kind of went through all of this like self-discovery and writing the think pieces and all of that and then I sat down to write the productivity method and I was like I feel like Gordon Ramsay telling someone he's like an idiot sandwich like i literally feel like i'm being that harsh just because i'm telling you that actually if you want to get that done you've got to get it done and like i think that's why the whole reason i repositioned it rather than you know it's not just because as soon as you're that then you're equally as harmful in the perpetuation of like self-care culture that now has these knee-jerk

reactions that's either like it's like a cult and it's like this wellness thing or it's like a waste of time there's like a middle ground like that is important for everyone but it doesn't just need to be kind of like you know like face masks and everything it can be it it has to be like part of all of it so yeah you might work till 3 a.m from 6 a.m every night for a month i would argue that that's not that possible beyond that point like it might be and you might be an incredibly hard worker and you know like and i perceive myself to be but you still at the end of it all you still need rest and yes you're completely right there's no glory and no kind of benefit in also perpetuating the completely the other side you know sometimes self-care is the most productive thing you can do but also sometimes

productivity is an act of self-care like you need to it's self-care to look at that project that you've been putting off for three weeks for the 50th time and actually get it done that's self-care like that isn't it doesn't have to be you know this that or the other it doesn't need to be compartmentalized into like you know some forms of work are self-care some forms of self-care are like what you know like it goes both ways and I think that that's what's important I think it's rather than choosing one or the other it's just real it's like being realistic and being you know you don't always need to be like disarmingly like I've had a bad day today because I also feel in the same way like I can't be asked to do that the whole time like I don't

like when I've had a bad day I don't instantly think like ah I will get the reward from being vulnerable by sharing this on social media like Like that's not my instant reaction. But at the same time, there is an importance. And I do think that people like us also have a duty to be able to share both sides, even if it's that being like, you know, like I was up till 11 last night writing a crisis plan for something. Like, you know, like you constantly have these things

and it's like, and then like, so there's just so many different types of i guess there are so many different angles to it and as long as there's kind of a more realistic thing as long as you don't feel weak to say that you sleep or whatever and you also don't feel like you're being like really mean to say like you have to work hard to do well both of those things are wrong so like there must be a middle ground and that the the left side you speak you speak to i'm just calling it the left just because it was the left i raised my left hand when i described it i'm not saying it's the left but it is it's like um i've always considered myself to be more left than i am anything else

but um i felt somewhat alienated by this kind of lack of personal responsibility, blame someone else, pessimism, culture that's emerging from that side. And I, in some respects, as someone that's been a social media seer for about almost 10 years, I understand the algorithms will create echo chambers and they'll reinforce things and they're actually polarizing us to be the right and more on the right and the left and more on the left. And my point here is that I like to be a bit more nuanced. I don't think binary solutions to complex problems ever make sense. Left, you know, rich, poor, black, white, left, right, whatever it is. And I posted something about personal responsibility and being grateful and things you can do if you're feeling bad. And there was a lot of people that said I was, and I actually take this as a compliment,

they said I was toxic positive. And there's this whole new phrase now, being too positive, being so positive that it makes people feel bad. And I don't give a shit, right? Like if we're gonna- I also think we have toxic things within ourselves and that's like-

What's toxic negative? But also like, you can tell me I'm toxically positive and I like, if if so for example like i might be the same in that i know that you know i'm not i would consider myself probably like a realist like i wouldn't consider myself like a constant optimist but i also know that like my coping mechanism for anything going wrong is to make something else go right so if that needs me to work hard if that needs me to push completely into work for 40 days and 49, then like, I'll do it. But I think that, you know, I think core, you know, being able to label something as

something doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I think, sure, if someone thinks that toxic positivity, then fine. A, I don't think that necessarily needs to be kind of you know like nothing is going to be nuanced enough on social media for you to understand unless it's like a 2000 word think piece but i also think that like these things exist like we all know some of these like i know that i have bad coping mechanisms in some way i know that i don't need anyone else to tell me if they do like it's fine but it doesn't like there's no benefit here like you're still going to think that way and therefore if you're sharing more of your thoughts it's still

going to be like that you might be toxically positive but it's that's you know that's you and that's what you're also going to say and like that would also be you would also be lying to then say okay well i'm going to make this more realist and so i'm going to do x y and z and i'm going to put that out there and then there are going to be more people who say the other side so it's like you can either spend your life like swinging back and forth between like what people perceive to be right and you're never going to get everyone because obviously as you say it's completely polarized but or you can kind of be like yeah you might not like this i just my whole stance is like i've i've read a lot of stuff about psychology studied psychology for a little while i i've had my life experience and if you follow me you're here to get

that stuff and you don't have to agree you don't even have to like it and there's loads of other and i think i did a story the other day being like there's loads of places you can get like fluffy you know face masks so the answer to everything stuff it's just not here because of my lived experience and i understand i have a you know a bias because i'm an individual that's had an individual experience when i was stalking you online, I found it really hard to find a boyfriend. I was, I was looking a lot. Like I was like, I found like, I was like, fuck it, we'll try Google Images. I was like, these are just friends. And then I was like. Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone will find a boyfriend probably until I'm maybe married

with kids. But I mean, as in, there won't be one yeah yeah I'm not it's not there's a boyfriend there because I read some stuff about you meeting this guy when you're like 15 and then you oh no no there's not a boyfriend there oh there's not a boyfriend but there's never going to be a boyfriend for people to see right yeah being young being successful being a woman I know where this is going yeah maybe I don't have to ask the question I'm just saying like I ask this question a lot of guests because probably because I've struggled myself right so being young you're a successful woman in business a lot of guys quite just going to be honest would be quite intimidated right you don't have to answer that but they would I'm one

of them I'll tell you I'm not speaking myself. I'm speaking from some insecure friends that I have that would feel intimidated by their partner, who is a woman, being successful. That's just, some men are insecure enough to find that emasculating. Talk to me about the difficulties of having romantic relationships when you are young, you are successful, you are a woman.

I'd say it's not necessarily what i'm concentrated on first and foremost and just just from like you know i want to do lots of things before i concentrate on that um i also think that one of the things that i i guess i found because like what you're saying is true um But I think what I find comforting in that is also the fact that like, I don't want to be with someone who finds that emasculating. So I think it's quite a good,

it's quite a good kind of whittle down process. Yeah, nice. Because like, if you find it emasculating, like that's fine. You don't like me, I don't like you. In the same way as like any other thing that people might not like about someone. You don't want to be with someone who doesn't,

you know, like my work is the biggest part of me and that's really sad it's not but like it's a huge part of my life and it will be and I would never want to be with someone who thought that was any short of like great um and so it doesn't necessarily I mean maybe it will trouble me down the line but currently it's kind of like, yes, I completely agree. I think people do find it intimidating and emasculating. I also think that that's kind of, you know, as I say, that doesn't necessarily change anything because it's actually not, you know, I would have no interest in being with someone who can be emasculated by that so and at this point in your life do you foresee in the future at some point you wanting to be

with a partner yes yeah i mean i think i think naturally i think a lot of people i say probably the large yeah yeah and i think that it's important especially with women not to presume because i've made that mistake before yeah no i mean i've i you know i couldn't have have like one friend who I think of who I know she she knows that she doesn't want to like ever have like a life partner like she doesn't it doesn't make sense to her which I think is completely I think makes sense you know like but I think that absolutely at some point and um but I'm in no rush I mean I'm very young when that day comes yes um what are the the difficulties you see in the current way that you live your life and forming a relationship with whoever this person this lucky person might be um i say the first problem is probably going to be

closet space um i think no i think in general why is grace difficult today and why probably yes you should probably ask a few people um no i mean i think that i'm an incredibly loving person and i'm incredibly dedicated to the people i love and that currently is filled by amazing friends and family and people I'm lucky to have in my life and I think that that will you know at some point as I say like that will absolutely hopefully be filled by you know that type of position but I think that the difficulties would probably just you know be about around understanding that work is as important as it is to me and I think that you know like I've had relationships in the past and that is you know like that does it does become a

problem and I also think that you know then you can't necessarily combat that by having someone who's the same otherwise you're never going to see each other like I think I probably you know would want someone who has the same values in that way but there has to be like a kind of middle ground or there has to be then you know some sort of way in which you will see each other once every 15 years or something but no I think I think the troubles will be around work and they won't be around emasculation because as I say that wouldn't be you know then there's no space for that um but I think you know in the same way as I'm able to be a great friend and family member and you know all of that now it's to me it's an extension of that to me it won't be you know any different I know in my qualities you know I probably probably the part of the reason why

that's not what I want now is because I also know that I care a lot about that so you know if I am in that situation I will give a lot to that and currently I don't have a lot to give to that so you know I think it's a prioritization for me and currently that's not a priority yeah. How has running business and the way that people have treated you in business especially being a young entrepreneur and I reflect on this in my own life changed you as a friend as a person you know your patience your snappiness your tolerance I think I'm a lot more I think there's part of it that's actually quite interesting that I've been thinking more about recently where if you're in business and you call the shots how does that develop in friendship so

I I've actually talked about that recently I don't think I've you know I've had to grow in confidence to say especially to for example men who have far more experience than me and are technically you know working for me like there's been a point where it's kind of like can i say like that this is not right or like whatever and i've developed that but i think you know i think i've now developed that well and i don't think i have a problem with that now and therefore i think that you know there's going to be part of that where you then like how does that switch off automatically the second you step through your door and you're with your family or your friends or your housemates or whatever and i think that that's probably something that i'll you know i'm very grateful that i think i want someone once asked me like how do you stay like grounded and down to earth

and i think that that i don't go for the types of friends that obviously my friends like bring me up and they're my biggest fans but there is no smoke being blown anywhere like as in they will be the first person to also say you know and that's what I value like I don't want to be in a superior position in friendship in family relations in whatever it is I will never be with the friends and family that I have and I think that that's so important and I think that that can absolutely affect people and I think that that's so important and I think that that can absolutely affect people and I think that you know I've seen people then surround themselves only with people in their position or only with whatever and I think that you know one of the

most valuable things I have is that a lot of my friends are in entry-level jobs and I'm able to see from their point of view what's the most frustrating thing about their workplace and not feeling valued or whatever and I'm allowed I can make sure that that I tried for like my best to make sure that never happens for people within mine and I think that so you can get those you know you get so many benefits from having different people around you primarily like no one is kind of there yeah as we say what about when the bill comes oh well first of all you'll be pleased to hear that my friends like to go to very cheap places which i also like i'm i i love a you know nice dinner and a nice like whatever but you will not i mean you you'll find me buying a bottle in the club if it's one

of my friends birthdays or like whatever you know like i love treating my friends i love taking them on holiday like i love you know but it's you can tell when that's someone who's there for that I also have the large majority of my friends have been around me for a long time and um I think I I generally trust myself to be a good judge of character I've got it wrong before um you know I've had things where I've kind of like taken people on trips left right and center and then you can tell that like that was the aim um but like in general actually you know I have amazing people around me and like I think we I'm I like to consider myself a generous person and I want to you know do things like like yeah sometimes I will just be like I'll just get this or like whatever

it might be and and I'm in a position to do that. And I think especially if, you know, there'll be a friend who's been asking for a workplace for a raise for three years and it hasn't even gone up with inflation. And there's kind of like, and like there are ways that you could like, as in, and it's not the, it's not compensating for that,

but it's being like, you need to be able to be grounded enough and like whatever to be able to still be a friend to people who are in you know either a very different situation or like whatever it might be and I think that I never want to lose that so yeah I'll buy nice things for people and I'll do that just as I would for any like anyone like my sisters or whatever if they need something but it's not I think I'll tell instantly and maybe not maybe I'm being walked all over by everyone but I'm happy so no I mean we find ourselves in the same position largely

right and I think the interesting point is you've been successful and the people that you love you want to share that you know you want to have good times and good experiences with but being realistic mathematically they won't be able to have those experiences unless you create them right and so that creates a bit of an issue for you because you want to you know have good times with your friends but you know that you know that you're you're gonna you're gonna have to create that situation whether it's a holiday and it's not a problem for you because you love these people and they're good people but it can sometimes create yeah of course and there's a I think also like the important thing from because I know people who talk about that problem but also they love the flex so it's

like okay if you're complaining that you're always the one paying for the bill and you're also the same person saying for three weekends in a row let's go to nobu or even one weekend like it was fucking expensive like you know like you're gonna like that generates a certain type of thing and i think that you know that's not necessarily their fault then but I also think that there's a you know if you want to be doing that all the time and you're the only person person in that position in your friend group then you're you know there's a certain thing that's demanded of you but I think like at the same time that you can be a good friend and be like very generous and like like I understand that I'm incredibly fortunate to be in my position and I want to get the nice Christmas

presents and nice like whatever it might be and take people on holiday like if you that I'm incredibly fortunate to be in my position and I want to get the nice Christmas presents and whatever it might be and take people on holiday. Like if, you know, I want to go or whatever it might be. But I think, yeah, largely, yeah, it's a difficult, it's not a difficult position to be in. Like it's an incredibly fortunate position to be in, but there are, there are things that come with it. And I think that, you know, thankfully I haven't been, I guess, like harmed by that too much. And I, you know thankfully i haven't been i guess like harmed by that too much and i you know intend to i don't want that to make me a bad person and i don't think it sounds like you're keeping the right people around you that's probably the most important thing right people that will tell you when you're stepping out of line oh trust me yeah

exactly that'll be the first person to be like this comes across awfully so bad i'll be, thank you so much. That's really good. No more trips to the biobank. We've talked a little bit before we got on. We started recording about working culture and how working culture has changed and how the pandemic has shifted things to being,

you know, working from home. What's your take on working culture and how teams should operate and how your teams operate and stuff? So I've been reading a lot about this recently, um general things you know like rework work rules like all of those types of books talking about working culture and i think that the main point of interest for me that i've kind of been exploring obviously has been the idea of working culture but how we internalize it and how our lack of boundaries within this generation has meant that we have no boundaries between work or not work so it's kind of you can

be working anywhere and everywhere so when you're not you've kind of internalized this idea that when you're not working everywhere and anywhere it's the equivalent of like being in an office and taking a nap like just because you're living your life and I think that that to me is the most that stands out as the most problematic kind of side of working culture within our generation I also think that that is that is coupled with you know like companies like Google for example who are seen to have really good working culture because they support their employees they you know unlimited holiday all of that some of that is also a thinly veiled way of making people work more because they don't have to do their laundry

they don't have to cook their lunch they don't have to um you know they're not going to take any of that holiday if they're given unlimited but they do feel valued so they work harder you know and i think that it's really complex and i think that it's not necessarily like i definitely couldn't deconstruct it as a whole and i probably perpetuate it in some ways but i think that it's important that we look at it more and more now these boundaries are absolutely gone especially you know I started having some of these thoughts and feelings when I started working from home before we progressed to having an office um and I kind of was thinking like why am I working more than I

ever have and producing less than I ever have and also my mental health is on the floor yeah and I think that then when kind of there was the office exodus going at the kind of pandemic um and then people kind of saying the same thing and all of that and I was like oh good and I'm like why am I feeling happy you know the fact that everyone else is struggling too and it was you know it's a lack of boundaries we have awful boundaries surrounding work, surrounding success, surrounding all of this. And it's part of a generation that I guess bulldozes boundaries in a kind of progressive sense, but it ends up meaning that we actually don't know where we stand. We don't know what is good for us. And I guess we are constantly on the hustle train being told to like do more, think achieve more like xyz without ever questioning

whether it serves us because that's what we've been put on like if you're a hard worker you have to go in that like kind of way and i talk a lot in the book as well about like the i guess the kind of contradiction between the progressing values of like a four-day work week and you know amazing you know places like um nordic countries that have amazing work rules and all of that and at the same time like at literally the exact same time and often by the same you know people the same kind of um examination of it we also have this idea that you kind of need to work all the time and it's like how are we progressing in these two completely different directions and we don't necessarily know which one is right and then if we're going down to the

four-day work week is that because it makes us more productive so technically it's actually to make us like work more or produce more or whatever it might be and so I guess it's it's all just very complex and I think that there's not enough examination around it in the mainstream I guess like you should be able to if you're in the financial position too and you want to and everything like you should technically be able to take your work down to four days a week or whatever and that seems like the most ludicrous suggestion ever because you know you could always be producing more you could always be doing this you could always well then you should side hustle and that three-day weekend you get and like x y and z and so I think it is I think it's damaging and i think that yeah as i say isn't there something funny here well you know because

we're talking about ideas that we would probably never live ourselves yeah like you're not gonna oh no three days off for a fucking weekend and i'd love to yeah would you i think i'd go insane but but yeah um but i but yeah, I think it's completely true. And I think that part of this has been me being like, okay, this is really unhealthy. This is actually problematic. This is X, Y, Z. And yet you are the embodiment of all of them.

It's like trying to figure out how to- But that's important. And I think social media discourages that type of thought because you have to be on the defensive. You have to say like, yeah, this is a bad idea and this is a bad idea and yet I do both of them. You have to either acknowledge it's a bad idea or not acknowledge it's a bad idea and just do it.

You can't have this like cognitive dissonance of thinking one thing and like doing another because yeah, like sure, that's a bad thing in some ways but also like you have to accept the fact that you don't always think what you're doing is a good idea or you don't you know you know something's good in theory but don't do it or whatever and I think social media completely bulldozes that opportunity because you have to like stand firm you have to stand your ground you have to and I found myself actually getting quite

one of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because I felt like I was justifying myself constantly not to not outwardly to myself because I was like I need to you know but like if I agree with this why do I do this and like all of that and I think that I had to be like this is causing so much like I'm going into overdrive because I don't know how to deal with the fact that I have multiple thoughts at once because social media makes you linear it makes you yeah it makes that like lack of nuance like your thing like it's the mo and so i think that the i think that's kind of yeah where i realized that like we just can't discuss anything like you have to choose your camp you have to choose your like whatever you um when i first came across you it was a couple years ago it was actually on twitter

and i think i don't know i followed you you followed me let's just go with you followed me because it makes me look better um and i went on your profile and I remember going down and thinking here we have an influencer who actually like stands for something and that was my only like real sort of uh that was my first sort of take on you and then a couple years passed by whatever and I I wondered as I was you know going through some of the tweets more recently that were you know people just talking nonsense whatever I wondered you know there's a cost to that there's a real cost to standing for something because then it's much easier just to stand for nothing because then I can't attack you for anything right because you don't you know but when you decide that you want to stand for something

whether it's sustainability or whether it's certain values you then are interrogated for perfection yeah and one human step out of line we've got you yeah yeah no absolutely i think the same as in everyday life but it's magnified to a point you know in the same way i remember when i i went vegan like three years ago now and i um my friend said that my friend the reason i went vegan was because my friend was ill at the time and she couldn't eat any dairy products and she was upset about it and we were um go we were actually going traveling together and so I said I would do it with her and we were like let's just try it like it'll be fun and I was like fuck I really do not want to give this up um but we did it and then we actually

stuck to it and I was kind of like I actually like this it works really well for me um and um I and she was saying how hard her friends were taking it and how like they were just like you know be like ha you just ate that that actually apparently has like this and it's like it's the same it's just magnified and I think that I think that part of its projection we don't like to acknowledge that we think one thing and sometimes do another in ourselves but we love to pick it up on other people and I think part of it's just as we say it's the binary of social media it's the lack of kind of you know it's the fact that that is going to happen and i do you know you find yourselves doing things the whole time where you're like oh you shouldn't have done that or like whatever and i think social media amplifies

that to the point that it's so much more of a big deal than it needs to be sometimes it doesn't need to be a big thing like i'll stand by the fact that you know cancel culture fine like in a lot of ways not great in some ways like there are some areas yeah really shouldn't be said or whatever um but i think that there's also like an aspect of that that's kind of you know we live our lives constantly thinking one thing and doing another like cognitive dissonance like we you know like you know you should be better for the planet and yet you still buy fast fashion or you still like eat meat every day or like whatever it might be it's how we operate and i think that that isn't allowed on social media i don't think that's like

a then like a complaint i think it's more like a that's how social media is and therefore if you're using it in that way there kind of needs to be an acknowledgement of the fact that that's just like I know that and I know where I go wrong and I know you know like where I'd like to do better and that's for me to deal with so you know and I so I think that that's something that we see across our lives and it's just hugely magnified when you made this decision to step back from social media I noticed you hadn't posted on YouTube either for about 11 months I have all my dates was there a part of you that thought you had let this negativity of social media win? I don't, I think anytime I've thought that,

I've realized that it's completely untrue because I've realized it later. So when I stepped back from YouTube, that was about, that was, you know, a bit after all the things I've talked about that like I was going through and it wasn't right for me. And I just decided not to do it and I think

that also part of that was a business decision it's a like loss to income in the kind of short term but everything I've done for the past three years has been towards longevity it hasn't been about the short term because I've been able you know at the beginning I accumulated enough to be able to make that change and to be able to say okay well I want to I want in two years time if I want to to be able to disappear so you know that's I think rather than I don't think anything has to be a defeat like sure it could be some people can consider it that for themselves like great that's fine then we both win because I realized and once again I talk about it like I talk about kind of like the thought process behind it in my book and I realized and once again I talk about it like I talk about kind of like the thought process behind it in my book and I realized that kind of that was actually not you know I had this choice to be

full-time influencer I guess with my businesses in the background and I also had the choice to lean in and really make these businesses something and make them you know like much bigger and have the potential of you know growing them huge maybe selling one one day like whatever it might be and I think that I decided as well that actually what made me happy in the actual work itself was the head down get it done even like the crisis management the working with the team till 3am the building a brand for all of that that like I was so young and still am that I hadn't even started my career like sure I had but I like everyone I guess anyone at any time can do three years of something then decide to go to business school then decide to stop and do writing or like whatever it might be that was my change that was me being like actually

what do I like in the day-to-day it's not you know whatever like there was a lot of stuff that I was doing that I did love but I a I saw what was happening down the line I saw that it was really hard to maintain that after a certain amount of time and as I've said I've always had this kind of constant anxiety that I'm going to end up doing something I don't want to do which has made me be probably quite proactive and actually being like actually no I'm gonna do x y and z to make this not happen and I think that you know sure like there was part of you know there will be parts of it where it's like oh and also even better than that it means I won't get the negativity but I also loved the sense of community I loved you know at that time actually I didn't get much negativity at all like and I don't think you do necessarily when it's kind of like just a sharing of your life.

Like people loved, especially the fact that I was at uni for three years. So I was showing a really realistic, like I'm still just going to be in my one room home, like, you know, doing another essay. Like it's not that exciting and people loved that. It was, I think, because, you know, once the channel grows, it often gets unrelatable,

which, you know, people have different arguments about that. But like for three years, mine had to stay relatable because I was still within that same room writing more essays and I think that I absolutely loved that like I loved that and I will cherish that as part of my career that I really did love I think I know that what I'm doing now is what I'm meant to be doing I also think I'm really good at it. And I think that I feel fulfilled. Like I genuinely feel fulfilled. What do you- Most, if not every day.

What are you, so what are you doing now in terms of your focus and your, I guess the question that I wanted to ask to that point is, what do you, as it relates to your businesses, and I think about the same question for myself, what is the bit that you wanted to ask to that point is what do you as it relates to your businesses and I think about the same question for myself what is the bit that you're really good at and that you think do you know what that's the piece that where I consider myself to be replaceable so I guess the more I you know as a CEO or a founder who's moving into another whatever it might be like you you step back to work on the business rather than in the business right

so the more I step back I think the more you then realize what you're really good at because those are the things that you keep having to jump back into and you keep realizing that like yeah I could get this person to do it and I could delegate it entirely which you know you try and do and then it keeps coming back and it's not quite right and for me that's marketing and branding that's like the you know the thing and that is I also think that a lot of successful businesses are you know founder-led businesses are the ones where I was talking to a friend about it the other day actually are the ones where the founder is product and brand and they still have that involvement whether it's just at vision and they're briefing at the beginning of a process or whatever it might be that is where the concentration is because that is what the brand is and we are in a generation where brand is everything and so the you know

the house of cbs the like what you know the yeah they're all they're all their brand and and beyond brand their brand bleeding through to product and so you know it's good that that's my concentration as well because you know that's definitely paid off but I also think that that's the things again and again that when I was having the discipline to step back and to actually you know do what I should be doing which is not being in the execution all the time being in the lead and being in the vision. Those were the ones where I realized I was like, okay, I have to be in this in some way. Even if that's, you know, as I say, writing a brief at the beginning of the process

or mentoring that person through the first few times or being at the end of the approval process, whatever it might be, those are the things that I, nothing will go live without that going through me, not at every stage at all, but there are stages, whether that's the beginning, the end, both, whatever it might be. It sounds remarkably similar to many of the founders, especially young founders that I've spoken to, who have that realization, like Ben, who's been on this podcast as well, from Gymshark, even like Huel, Julian, who runs Huel, where at some point, I'm speaking more about Ben here, you have, and to be fair myself as well, because at Social Chain, I wasn't doing process, finance, legal, all that nonsense. I was doing brand marketing, where you have that realization that

that is your strong point. It's also the bit that you love. And all the other things, the process, the business stuff, those were systems that were created created long ago and that there are tons of very you know better people than you to handle those things and it becomes a case of where will my investment of my time um return the most for the business and i don't think people have that conversation enough because i think young founders sometimes feel like they have to be able to do everything right i think that is the materialization of this hustle culture I think a lot of that led it's the kind of like idea of so I talk about this thing called like announcement culture which I thought was a thing but then I actually looked it up and isn't anywhere so I kind of defined like defined

it within the book about the essentially the idea that you know success is valued as more within this generation once it's announceable so it's not the underlying stuff even if that was doing more it is everything that is announceable labelable all of the above so it also comes on a micro level within our every day like we like to tick things we like to see the things ticked off like we like to you know we'd probably rather see 10 things ticked off our to-do list than have actually made some real thinking progress in a concept that like whatever because that's the way it's you know you feel more productive you feel like you've done more and I think that that's also an area where where founders people on social media who are within

businesses whatever they need to be seen to be doing everything to be validated and I don't think that's a personal problem I think I've had it a hundred percent I think I still have it at certain points but you know it's a validation through being told you're legitimate because you do things and like I'm not gonna lie I don't know half of the shit that goes on in our finance meetings and I will sit there and I will look at it and I'll look at you know and it's like that's great and I need to be over it and I need to have that understanding and I'll ask the. But I also think that the second I let that fear of illegitimacy by not doing everything leave, that was the second that I was able to

actually be a leader. Because I was able to realize that actually, what, if I'm better than everyone at their specific things, then we've got a business that is as big as one person. Like, as it goes, like you should hire people that are better than you at their specific disciplines. So like, even if you're like, if you're micromanaging, if you're being like a bottleneck, if you're like whatever it might be, you are automatically causing a problem

or not even necessarily causing a problem. It might work, you know, like it might go to plan, but you are restricting that growth, or not even necessarily causing a problem. It might work, you know, like it might go to plan, but you are restricting that growth, that potential, that magnitude of the business because you are, and it's for your ego. It is not for anything other than your ego. Even if that's an innocent thing, even, you know, as I say, I still do it,

I'm sure at points, even if that's, you know, like you want to be said to be on this project that did really well. And I think that as a founder, you have to get to a point where that ego of course it's like a validation thing and it's coping mechanism and you'd like to think that you always do the best for your business but especially when we're looked at online and when you know we need to be seen that we're involved in this that and the other because otherwise people think you know like especially someone who I'm sure lots of people think I'm just the face of the business, whatever. So like, maybe I need to prove that I do X, Y,

and Z. But the second I stopped doing that was the second I, as I say, was actually able to do my job. Remarkable. When I was 18, 19, 20, starting the business, because I was young, I'm going to be honest, I definitely feared hiring really experienced people because I thought, well, how am I going to manage them? And they're going to and they're going to figure out that I'm not that experienced it's going to be difficult and so I look at the first 10 hires I did and they're all like kids yeah I'm like why did I hire 10 kids and then I get to a point where I'm like 21 22 and I start social chain and I hire some really experienced people then they go on to hire loads of because the person the people you have yeah they know what their teams need to look like I always say in our

companies I'm like the most important people are the people you have hiring- Yeah, they know what their teams need to look like. I always say in our companies, I'm like the most important people are the people you have hiring all the other people, right? Yeah, oh, absolutely. And my life became 99.9% easier when we got better people in. And I fell back and stopped letting my ego or my insecurities run the show. And the other thing which I wasn't expecting

is it actually makes you look so much better when your business works like i i think the thing is is that like you've got to ask yourself yeah would you like the business to have the glory or would you like you to have the glory and like then realize that if the business has the glory you still have the glory but you just have to wait a bit like you just have to not need to be validated every day by the fact that you were involved on that project that did well or the fact that you signed that off I don't need to sign something off if the team is made of people who are better than me and like fine actually I'm sure there are people who are

far better than me within branding but it's my brand so like you know like still that's going to be that's going to be like put in a certain direction but I think you're completely right I mean I actually hired you know in my final year of uni I actually had three students working for me or one student and two fresh grads and they were great like they were fantastic and to like and I think they're you know amazing one of them still working with in Tala now and I think that I think that that actually was my only option at the time like oh I couldn't afford to hire you know like any more than that and it was people who I put them through like so many tasks.

And I was like, I need you to be the right person because I'm about to launch business and do my finals at the same time. So I'm going to be outsourcing. And I always say, actually, a lot of the reason for my success was also the fact that I was forced to outsource so early

based on the fact that I was at university and Oxford had always been my dream. As I say, I applied twice. Like I was not going to let it go. I thought I deserved to be there and I proved when I was there that I was at university and Oxford had always been my dream as I say I applied twice like I was not going to let it go I thought I deserved to be there and I proved when I was there that I did and I think that that I was so committed to getting to the end of that getting what I deserved and you know and being proud of myself even though that wasn't necessarily my dream anymore that was my like childhood dream I was so convinced that that was going to happen that I had to outsource immediately essentially like and who was that first key senior hire that came into your business and how did it feel when you you know you saw the

salary and you thought fuck yeah so so salary wise those those are more recent those are much more recent those are within the part actually probably right before I finished uni there was someone who we hired and I was like but I actually managed to get someone else to hire them so so to work on essentially what would be my account um so the but even then I was kind of looking at that and I was like you know like that regardless of who's hiring affects the pnl so like you know what and but then more recently there have been you know we've been hiring a head of product from sweaty betty you know like all of these like the people and like it's but also like those are the ones where i have to like hype myself up because i'm like you graduated from my university 20 years ago like do i ask you for like help like do i ask for permission to ask you questions and i think that

the the it all ties in as well because as soon as you realize that you don't need to be that person you also realize that they're not wanting you to be that person they want to come in and do their expertise they don't want you to be like oh i just want to check over this because i'm the founder or i'm the ceo they yeah they just want to do their job and the better they do their job the better you do their job the better you do the job the better they do their job it like it's all cyclical but it's like ego and validation and legitimacy that ties together to make this kind of big old like cauldron of like this is probably ineffective but i have to be not even validated i don't think it's vapid like i don't think it's like you know i don't think it's necessarily ego in a bad way i

think it comes from like the fact that all of us have some insecurity that needs to be you know especially if you start a business young and especially if you feel like, oh, like, wow, I'm in this position. Like you have to be, either you're like incredibly confident somehow and like completely full of yourself. But I genuinely believe that most of us have some insecurities about- Impostors in terms of-

And so like, it's all tied in. I don't necessarily, I don't think it's a bad thing. I don't think it makes you a bad person. As I said, I have a lot, but I think you have to recognize it. And I think that's the first thing I'd say to, I actually had a fellow founder message me me like two days ago. And she was like, just wanted to tell you what you told me about a year ago saying, um, like everything, you know,

she was at the stage where I was like, you need to be hiring people. And she was like, but it's expensive. And I was like, I know, but they will pay for themselves because like, if you, you know, like even not even necessarily the right people, like even it's admin even if it's like whatever you should be doing the things that only you should you can do whether you're self-employed whether you're like whatever it might be and you know like my my like i grew up like my dad was self-employed like all of these things and i think that you see your like there are so many different ways of working. And I was thinking, because I've seen people do things one way, like I need to prove myself and I need to do that.

Proving myself is more effective if I have a team of amazing people. And that's been like one of my biggest, biggest lessons. I asked you then what you're, you know, what you were really good at within the business. You talked about branding and marketing. So I'm going to ask you the opposite question. As the boss, as Grace Beverley, the CEO, what are were really good at within the business. You talked about branding and marketing. So I'm going to ask you the opposite question. As the boss, as Grace Beverley, the CEO,

what are you really bad at? Big silence. Anything? Careful. I think there's probably like... We're going to bring in her PA now. Would you like to talk? I think there are probably like we're gonna bring in her PA now I think there are probably a lot of things I think I think there's definitely I think one of my things is the thing we've been

talking about getting involved where I don't need to be involved I think that's probably you know and I think I have an anxiety around that that actually you know there have been times where I haven't got involved where I probably should have because I was getting too confident with my moving away and then it just wasn't right. And the product didn't shift enough or whatever it might have been. And so I think probably that's one of my main things. And also only recently have I realized how much confidence I have to having people. And I think it was actually based on talking about how shitty some of Google's rules are, actually in Work Rules,

the book about Google working culture, he says that like one of the most important things at Google is that they encourage and empower everyone to be like their own founder. So like if they're on a project, like they should be founder of that project and they should feel empowered to also like look at me and be like, no, like this is not how it, and like, and I think that that stood with me so

much because i was like you know what like the next day i emailed someone who was you know hiring someone within their team and they were like should we get them on this or this and i was like you decide like you you know you decide we know the end goal any way we get there i'm happy with you decide instantly saw that you know like because people also want to be empowered with that and also people often you know do much better when they're given the responsibility and so I think that some of that what we've just been talking about is probably one of my biggest weaknesses because I'm so terrified that something will go wrong and obviously as the you know success as many fathers and like all of that you know all of that like you have to take responsibility when it goes wrong it doesn't matter whether it wasn't you whatever it might be

i mean something goes wrong right yeah with your brand grace beverly is the one that they hold responsible so in turn over here something goes right true but inside over here says something responds to a dm yeah whatever you've got to almost justify that even if not even justify it but it apologizes maybe it's happened it's happened multiple times and i think that how do you not then go to the intern and say you mother because i i think if it was enough for me to do that i think it'd be much more great gracious for me to just probably get rid of them as in essentially to say like this is not the right place because it also you know there's a part there's an element of that that's not understanding the brand that's not understanding who we are our

ethos or whatever and if it's that far out of line it's like okay well this is a mismatch here then but I think that so my two options then eat both of them involve like you know being gracious in some way and one of that is fixing it If I genuinely believe that it was an honest mistake and it came across wrong or like whatever it might be, then fine. And I will work with them to deal with it. And I don't believe, you know, maybe someone will disagree, but I don't believe I have ever, ever, ever gone to someone

and be like, how dare you? You've sacrificed this. Like, you know, you've done all of that. Because also they do the work every single day to make the company great. And yeah, it's frustrating. Like, trust me, like, I don't see that and think like, it's fine because last week they did a nice post

or like whatever. But like, there is still an element of it that's like frustrated. And that's like, feels like you've taken 10 sex back and is terrified that you're about to be canceled or like whatever it might be. But there's either a decision then to decide it's a mismatch or to but there's either a decision then to decide

it's a mismatch or to decide it's still a match and it was an honest mistake neither of those involve like ripping someone to shreds so how do you do sometimes though when you do get like emotion and business it's your baby it's it's sometimes you know anger or I don't know frustrations they do manifest themselves in business in certain ways like I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have days where I was frustrated and people knew I try not to be as much as I can I try and remain a little bit calm especially when it's most chaotic yeah yeah especially in offices I think that's particularly like we have the luxury now I'm like well you can't see me like as in you know I think I often like I think probably the near our office the like cafes they know me well because I will I will take myself I will exit because I don't I think in life and in business I don't believe in

I don't think I necessarily react in that way naturally um and I think to my detriment sometimes because you know sometimes you do need to say you know this is absolutely not right or whatever but i think it's the same thing as i kind of talked about before like you know i'd rather work out the best way to deal with it there have been times where i've picked up the phone and i'd be like what the fuck has gone wrong like like why would you do that like this makes absolutely no sense like this is you know you should know better like all of that and they are first of all they are very few and far between i'm not saying that i don't say that to my housemates and i'm like how fucking dang i don't understand why he would do that like he knows that's not the case but i would i don't i don't i mean you might

disagree i don't think i i don't think i'm really like i'm not uh she's looking at her she also is paid to say no um but i genuinely i genuinely i'm not a she's just sending a text here but i'm not uh i don't think i'm i think i'm the same in relationships friendships like everything i am a walk out of the rumor and come back in half an hour and at that point i'll leave the shout or i'll you know but I'm not instantly kind of in that moment which is why I sometimes also find social media hard because I don't want to react in the moment and social media warrants an instant reaction because that's the only way that

you're being true to yourself or like whatever it might be like I often will think something you know when you're angry and you think something you're so angry about it and then half an hour later I won't be or I'll think it's different or I'll think someone didn't mean that or whatever it might be and so I try and even though social media doesn't necessarily allow for that amount of kind of like discussion I do try and like you know just yeah and that's kind of in general how I deal with things I go and spend some time by myself and if anyone talks to me if you are to become the person you want to become what does that person look like in terms of values the way they conduct themselves react to things um I think for me it's a lot of repositioning I as I said like I think that I grew up on social media at a time where I was particularly low and therefore like a lot of that was made up with

validation therefore like I think one of my main aims and one of my main like work, what I've been working towards for the past, you know, year or so has been that kind of self-validation and that self-worth. And I think that that through and through, you know, unfaltering self-worth is, I don't know whether it's even like a reality. Like I think people have faltering views of themselves, just like they do every other person. You can love someone absolutely unconditionally and you can think in one moment like, yeah, like, you know, why did they do that? Or like, I think that's a terrible trait about them or whatever. And I think the important thing is being able to bounce back from that into the original position or being able to consider that and still have that worth or love or whatever and I think so

I think to become the person who I want to be I think it's you know I'm quite you know happy with where I am now and I think there are like I know what I need to improve in terms of like and I think a lot of it comes down to my own confidence and my own um like assurance in myself in order not to project that elsewhere so yeah like in general I think that's probably one of my main main things being completely honest I don't think it involves like money or like growth in any other way I think the first thing that I know that I need to improve on is that how how does one go about improving their self-validation i would love to know i think in general it's just like it's an understanding of yourself it's an understanding that you're going to fuck up it's an understanding that you're going to think one thing and do

another and i think that part of that as i say but that was part of the reason you know I did move away from social media because it was like I can't have all these people telling me one thing even if it's a great thing because it doesn't allow you to be like completely in touch with yourself and know those differences yeah exactly like even if it's the people blowing smoke up your ass like you then can't get that from yourself because you're constantly like clouded by that if it's people hating it's the same thing same thing. So I think that like, I don't necessarily know. I think all it can be is being in touch with yourself and understanding that you are going to do things wrong. I think I'm very harsh on myself in the way that I don't like doing things wrong and I

work very hard not to do things wrong. And so when I do, you know, it hits me hard. And I think that part of that is learning that. Does it hit you hard? Yeah, I think, I think in general it really does. And I think that I, yeah, yeah. I think that that's kind of one of the things that you have to then develop that kind of self-love and all of that to be able to say, okay, great. Well, like, you you know but I'm

as I've said got this like miss trunchbull living in my head who just wants one thing and one thing only and it constantly changes and it's constantly more and I think that's an important thing to address two things the first one is Instagram you kept Instagram yes why I like Instagram in general I think that you know I think one of the one of the sad things that I found about kind of pivoting was that I loved what I got from things like YouTube in terms of like the community as I say that like I loved being able to share that and I was at this really weird point where I loved sharing my life but I also didn't like sharing my life because I like you know and it was you know there are bad things and good things about everything but it was like the highs were really high and

the lows were really low and so it's kind of like toxic in that way and I think that Instagram Instagram and Twitter probably both can be used in a way where you, I try and use it more as like a, you know, I post way more than like a regular non-Instagramming, non-public eye, whatever person would post, but I don't use it as a platform for anything other than just social media. Like if that, if that makes any sense at all,'s kind of you know it's pretty much my only platform and I just you know I post as and when I want I don't need to post I don't need to come across a certain way because I don't need to do stories at all one day you know like whereas yeah and probably the most widely there was a report out that said Instagram is probably the

worst platform for mental health well you can see why visuals, filtered visuals, unrealistic comparisons. I think I also thought that no matter what I didn't like or what I wanted to pivot to, I also owed it to myself to be able to celebrate my success in some ways. And I think that, you know, that however many messages I get from people saying, you know, I know you've moved off other platforms, but please don't delete Instagram because you know

xyz like whatever it might be like everyone has their people who really not necessarily really need them but really really benefit from them and I think that I also saw a lack of representation for women in the business space who also shout about it and I think there's a reason for it like I wouldn't encourage women to shout about it, not from a moral perspective, but because you will be ripped to shreds and because people will have preconceptions that are different from successful men.

And, you know, whether that's showing material things or like whatever it might be, it's perceived as differently. And therefore like, but I did think in that way that not only do I want to be able to do that, I also think that, you know, I think I'd like to do it also to make sure, you know, to be able to do that I also think that you know I think I'd like to do it also to make sure you know to be able to be in that landscape and I think that I kind of owed it to myself also to be

able to celebrate that even if I was moving away from that being my job I don't post in any way the same as I posted when that was my job um I post very differently but you know it's I love it you got any sort of big regrets in your life that you've uh that might help others avoid making those same mistakes i think i mean i mean i think my it's it's the kind of same tied in thing again it's once again it's just anything to do with allowing other people's perception allowing focus on other people's perception of you over your focus on your perception of yourself um but I don't think I'm not really like a as I've said much to my detriment and to my success I've you know I don't

necessarily concentrate on don't maybe it's that toxic positivity thing you said or whatever I don't necessarily concentrate on those downfalls like I feel like everything that's gone wrong like we're not not getting into Oxford the first time or whatever that led to me having a really great corporate job and I was able to make some money and I was able to make you know like work in econ for a bit you know like all of those things and I think that I'm very like my pick yourself back up attitude is bad in some ways but the way it's good is also allowing you to not have many regrets because you always make something out of a bad thing and therefore it's really hard to look back and say that was shit because fine even if it didn't lead to what you thought it would like I had for example I had my absolute dream job lined up for April and it got

cancelled because of the pandemic and you know I'm like was very lucky to be in an industry that was largely unaffected and Faction sometimes did really well and I was so devastated about that um and like maybe it will happen maybe it won't but like you know I think that that was something that couldn't be a regret couldn't be whatever but I also know that at this point I've moved so much away from social media in that time that that probably would have put me on a like blasted me in a way that actually maybe I wouldn't have been able to deal with and I think that you know kind of the world works in like mysterious ways and like maybe that wasn't right and maybe I wouldn't say yes if I got that opportunity again. And I think that that actually just, yeah, I guess maybe it is a toxic positivity.

Maybe it is like, maybe I should be, you know, I don't allow myself to be sad about those things when I maybe should be, or I should address them. But I think part of that means that when I am asked about my regrets, I have kind of very little. That's good. I mean, regrets that come with their upsides, right? And the value and the lessons that they teach you. So it's hard sometimes. Absolutely. And I don't think it's bad i mean regrets that come with their their upsides right and the value and the lessons that they teach you so it's absolutely and i don't think it's bad to have regrets i think acknowledging your regrets is really important to be able to move forward um maybe i'd block them

out i bet you can't wait for people to get your book right yeah it's a real labor of love right yeah i mean i'm terrified at the same time um and i'm sure there'll be some people i think i think well i think you it's the same as a business if you pour that much love and your soul into something if people hate it they essentially hate you like that's never nice it doesn't matter whether you're a bad nurse or whatever like it's not something you want and i think that i think also as i say there's a lot that i've put in there that i probably wouldn't have talked about online because it's there's delayed feedback there's you know i don't need to hear what someone says thinks about that in that moment and so I you know I'm excited I'm terrified um but you know

and it's also very different like it's different from what I've been doing it's not entirely about business it's not entirely about you know xyz it's it's different like it's essentially another pivot in one way and I think that you know I'm excited and equally like you know I think about it some like some for some reason last night was one of the nights I had kind of like constantly waking up I was like what if people don't like this bit and like what if people you know and I think that that's not something you control control and like I think the only way to guarantee not having that would be to write a blank book which I don't have much interest in and is that those worries because I'm because I'll be honest I don't have those worries yeah and I've spoken to other authors that you know when I talked about them being excited about the book coming out they also didn't express those

worries so I'm wondering where those have come maybe it's because I'm conditioned to having a constant feedback loop of, you know, whether on the businesses, whether on my socials, whatever it might be. Or maybe it's because I'm more insecure about those feedback things. Like maybe it is, but I think that it's also, I care a lot. So, you know, I care a lot about it. I care a lot about my wellbeing. I care a lot about, you knowbeing I care a lot about you know I

and I feel like some of that you know is acknowledged that it's not necessarily even the right thing like I want to be able to write my truth and to write what I genuinely believe in and for someone to say I don't believe in that and this kind of goes back to the battle we were just talking about there so you said you wanted to be less sort of

connected to people's feedback well I write in the book I write you know at the same time like there's i don't i don't obviously it's completely irrational to want to be liked by everyone and i don't want to be liked by everyone but i think in the same way everyone who is in the public eye and see something shit or whatever it might be you know as in it's just you know it's an actual reaction like you know yeah so I think but I'm I'm very very excited and I think that the reaction so far to you know the concept to the excerpts to everything has been amazing and so I think that I should probably just be more excited about it and um yeah you're a you're a very um inspired entrepreneur I noticed this when I was going through your sort

of your history over the last couple years. You've started several businesses. You've had several ideas within those businesses and you seem like a constant stream of ideas, right? I imagine that's also a problem. Yes. My early investors told me they said they kept hitting me with this whip and saying, Steve, stop fucking emailing us with a new idea all the time. How have you been able to distinguish between what's an idea worth pursuing and what's because you could you know when you get a little bit of resource and you have teams of people you could at any time be the ceo that's walking in every day and say we're gonna do we're gonna do a new thing that can be unhelpful i'm still guilty of it yeah

no and i'm sure i am um i'm sure i am how do you decide what to what yeah i think i i think i use our audience a lot i think that one of the real benefits of having a you know i'm gen z so having a gen z led brand for your gen z yeah i'm the first year of gen z and i think one of the benefits is like everyone's's constantly like, how do we market to Gen Z? How do we do all of this? And I'm definitely not like Gen Z, like don't ask me to do a TikTok dance. But like, I think that in that way,

I feed off our audience a lot. Like I know I'm not the most experienced at branding. That doesn't mean I'm not the best at branding for our brand. That means I'm not the most experienced. So how can I use that inexperience? How I leverage off people you know how can I can I can just ask people sometimes like I can just say like would you be interested in this and I like used to be like no because they can only see the final thing and then sometimes people have said like yes yeah and then I've been like actually no but I think it's instinct I think some of it's instinct

I think the more you know your brand the more you really like know your brand. And I think that lots of the time, you know, it's an equal problem when other people have ideas and you're like, no, but I want you to have more ideas. And I think that, you know, it's just a constant learning process. And I'm sure I've had ideas, I have had ideas that have gone, you know, that just haven't gone as well as they should have. And I think that that's a constant thing. I think in fashion, especially like you're going to have like a certain amount of things that don't sell as well as they should like whatever it might be and that's just a constant reality so I don't think it's necessarily about always picking out the best ideas I think it's about picking out the right number of ideas usually fewer um and executing them well and as we look forward to

your future I'm sure there's plenty more ideas to come. Is there anything in the pipeline that one might be able to know about? Well, actually, because I've started two businesses, the one question kind of press everything always asks is like, what's next? What's the next business? And there just really isn't going to be one for a while.

And I kind of don't believe myself as well but i think currently i am so maxed out i think because i have two businesses yeah but i also have my personal brand so you know the book the press it is a business you know and that's a lot if you think of the amount of days in the week yeah so you're thinking like five days i'm really strict on weekends so i hate to tell the hustle culture group but i take weekends and i'm strict on them um and so five days a week split between technically three businesses that's already a lot of time blocking to establish what you spend your time on and where and bearing in mind that about you know 50% of this or not 50% 40% of the stuff I do will also be unexpected so I think that as I've said the kind of ethos I have

about constantly constantly pushing on and doing more more more is actually detrimental when it comes to doing things well and so I think that you know yeah I've had ideas and nearly started multiple businesses and this time at one point I even wanted to do like a mini essentially influencer VC of some form and like but actually I want to prove to myself and I think I have and I think I can continue to do so I want to prove that I can do these well and I can have patience and it's not about more more more because I think some of that comes from the fact that you know when things settle it's really easy to push for more when it's just at a settling state and I constantly you know why can't I push for more within those businesses like each yeah exactly

and growth and wider more breadth and everything And I think that that's part of my plan. So it might not be new businesses, but huge projects sometimes within a business sometimes take just as much as a new business. And I think that, yeah, sure, probably if my businesses were taken away from me tomorrow, I'd probably have another one the next day. And that's how I'm programmed. And I'm thankful for that because, you know, that's definitely part of the reason why I've got to where I am. But I also think that it's been a big lesson for me to learn that more is not always more yes that's the lesson that I also learned and I then started becoming a bit of a preacher to my friends who would brag about having five businesses and me saying one good one is much

more impressive I would almost be people as I've said people would say about the end of uni when i was doing you know like all of these things and i think i recognized probably too late but at some point i recognized that it wasn't about that and therefore i kind of was almost embarrassed when people were like she's got 72 businesses because i'd be like yeah you know i'd rather have one that was doing really well I'm currently concentrating on two doing really well and a third one which is my personal brand which is just yeah yeah and then you know and that one will be the key to longevity for the rest of my career but so will these two if they're done right because you don't need longevity you know if that happens and so I think I'm lucky to be in a position where I have many different

potential paths and the most productive thing I can do in that moment is to side on the path and stick to it and I think it's fickle and I think that I can be fickle in like a hard work you know like diligent way because I just want to do more and quicker and like all of that but actually the toughest thing I can do is just stand still and do it right and where does this end then for your businesses in your view where do you how because when we're entrepreneurs we kind of forecast you know five years time I'll sell this or I'll do this or whatever I'll step away what's your thinking with your businesses I think it depends I think that like for example I often I'll have a view I'll say like okay well I'll maybe aim to sell this one in two years. And then this one I'll keep on, like, and I'll, you know, do that forever. And

I think that then it changes, then like, the other one starts to get really exciting and really profitable. And you're like, well, maybe I'll keep this one for longer. So I think that, like, I've got used to the fact that that's not, you know, there's probably not, I've probably got used to the fact that actually there'll be a point where rather than saying, okay, in two years, I'm going to do this. It will be like, shit, I'm done. Like I'm done. And therefore, and that's too late, but I know it will be like that because I know I will push it to, you know, like the end or whatever it might be, but I'm, I'm'm open I'm very open to it I think also I'm very much at the beginning of this like Shreddy four years old Tala not even two years

old yet and I think that I'd be doing myself a disservice to kind of be it's exactly what I would do jump to the next when can I sell it when can I get all of this but especially because when you have a business you kind of program to assume that by the time you've done this you're officially like you're no longer an entrepreneur you know you like sold a business for x or whatever and it is a success point it's a huge you know it's a huge accolade and I think that for me I it's just about constantly keeping in touch with myself and what I want and what I want for the businesses as well. Because I'm sure there'll be a point where I'm like, I can't do that.

Like, you know, this needs X amount of funding or this actually needs to be acquired or whatever it will be. Don't think it will be soon, but there might be a point, you know, and there probably will be a point that that happens or where, you know, we've grown hugely recently. I have a terrifying thought of like,

what if it gets too corporate at one stage? And then, you know, it's not a joy for me anymore and at that point yeah like I can like I'd very much consider that um so I think it's very much like an open consideration constantly for me and I think that the best thing I can do again is just not yeah yeah yeah exactly have you managed to achieve balance in your life well this is the whole point of the book i guess um but um you don't need the book i think i think i'm doing well at the moment i think i wasn't doing well this time a year ago i think that i um am probably doing well you know because for example like as I've talked about, like, I'm not in a relationship. So maybe like that would throw it all off or whatever it might

be. I think at the moment, I'm doing it well. And probably too much of a focus on work. But that's what balance looks like to me at the moment. It's not 50 50. It's not like a tipping set of scales. It's like, sure, you're happy added up oh yeah I'm definitely happy I think I'm I think I'm particularly happy at the moment because I feel like I'm somehow simultaneously living my early 20s life whilst also being you know being in this amazing position and that for me that was the main thing I wanted because I just was you know this more more more thing was like you don't need to be acting like you're 40 like you you know and so I've really tried to maintain that even though it you don't need to be acting like you're 40 like you you know and so I've really tried to maintain that even though it's strange for me to be in my position and living

with three of my friends in my house or whatever it might be like I feel like I'm having that and I feel like that's that was a real you know that was a big thing for me and I'm I'm you know happy that it doesn't necessarily have to be that I'm in like some sick high-rise apartment by myself with like expos or whatever um and that for me is my happiness thank you uh it's been wonderful speaking to you I find you so inspiring and you know people have said to me as I've like gone through my journey that I'm like a wise head on shoulders whatever but you like really really are oh thank you well you are no but you like really are are, like you're 23, I remember when I was 23 I was still largely an idiot and you seem to have figured out, no I know but it's like the level of I'd say self-awareness right and I can see as you're speaking in the way that you answer

questions you're also really you're really trying to appreciate nuance. That's something it took me a long time to do right so I thought the world was the way i saw it if you don't work hard then you are inferior yeah right and then but i can see you're being very considered in how you speak and appreciate nuance and i think that's the trait of someone that's that's a bit had their life accelerated in the public eye or through you know pressure of running businesses but just someone that has a very wise um head on their shoulders and you're inspiring as hell thank you and you're a lovely human being so i want to thank you for coming here today and giving me your time and um when when can we buy your book april i know it's out we can pre-order now 14th 15th thank you let's see i know mine is march so yeah

but you can pre-order now 20 something oh yeah pre-order is don when is my book now 25th of march we'll cut it so it looks like you got it right first time you can pre-order both now maybe so many people will pre-order the same ones that you know when amazon assigns like a specific bundle people who yeah yeah exactly they're like you can get these two together for this i think that's the aim from this do go and check it out because i've i know how much you put into it personally and sometimes i sit down with people and i know they had some ghosts right i create the whole thing but speaking to you on and off camera i know how much you've poured into it and when when people do that i think they create really remarkable pieces of work and unique thoughts so

thanks again for coming on you're a really really special person and i'm so honored to have you here thanks thank you Bye.