The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - How I Became The Worlds Best DJ With Only One Arm: Black Coffee

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

Black Coffee is one of the biggest DJs in the world, and one of the largest musical artists to ever come out of Africa full stop. Charging up to $300,000 a set, he’s one of the most coveted and in-demand DJs in the game today. But what people may not know about him is that he’s climbed to the top of the DJ world while being able to spin with only one arm, losing his ability to use the other in a tragic childhood accident. From the greatest adversity comes the greatest achievement, though, and Black Coffee took it as more inspiration to drive towards his dreams - relentlessly, unrelentingly, fearlessly. Black Coffee’s story is truly inspiring. He is just one of many we’re bringing to you this Black History Month, during which we’re making a special effort to bring you essential conversations with people of colour who are thought and industry leaders in their fields. Follow Black Coffee: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/realblackcoffee/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/realblackcoffee Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue we just heard this sound and it was a car just rammed through the crowd and i I just bled out. Make some noise for Black Coffee. I hardly had a childhood. I was always working and I used to hate it growing up because I just felt like, well, when am I going to become a child, you know, and play like other kids? The 10th of February. Tell me about that day.

Man, that was a scary thing for me. When I went to the hospital, no one knew what to do. I would literally close my eyes. I wouldn't know whether I was here or here or here. So it was paralysed at that point? Yeah, I stayed for three months in the hospital. And that depressed me even more. Music helped me so much.

It brought me peace. This is why I share it. It's my way of healing people the same way it healed me. My childhood, where I come from, those things scare me. Why do those things scare you? Because it's a story that it was for years hard for me to share.

So what happened is I... Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself so the question that i always start this podcast with because i i studied childhood psychology for a little while and it was illuminating to me how much of our early years end up defining and shaping us how much who we become so that early context before 12 years old what what did that look like for you?

When I was born, my parents were married. My mom was super young. I was the first one. Two other siblings at the time. My mom married very, extremely young, probably like 22, 23 already. With three kids kids divorcing, we were moved to live with our grandmother from the maternal side. And she's the one who raised us.

And she used to work in a general hospital in a sewing room. But I saw her working extremely hard to go for everything she wanted. You know, like I look back and try to imagine how much money she was earning and look at the achievements, like changing her mud house into a big designed respectable house and she did this bit by bit by bit and as a kid i was

there and i saw it whatever little money she would have she would buy the bricks that would wait she buys sand it weighs you buy gravel it weighs everything. So that's what I learned from her, like to be assertive. You wake up, you go work. Also the strongest thing that I learned from her is she had cows and she was the only woman in the area, you know, who had cows, you know, and she was a single woman. And my job was to every morning go milk the cows before I go to school, every afternoon after school. So I hardly had a childhood, like a time to play as a child.

I was always working 5 o'clock, 5.30 from 11 years old every single day. And that was my environment, you know, where I'm like, okay, whatever you need, you just, you have to work. There's no other way. And so for the few years, she would make sure I'm up. She would make sure, you know, I'm on time. And eventually it was my thing. She didn't have to wake me up.

She didn't have to tell me when to go. She didn't have to. If there was a problem with the calves, I knew what was wrong. If I needed to get medication from the pharmacy, you know, I understood everything eventually. It became my thing, you know. That's my childhood. where was your father uh my father remained in turban and remarried so he started another family he worked in a factory they for a company called, they made sweets and chocolates.

That's where he worked. And he just didn't have, he was a nice guy, but he wasn't present, you know? So on holidays, we'd go see him, you know, he would have nothing to say. He wasn't the guy who's like how was your day how was school you know any advice type of thing you know he wasn't it was just like the way he was

you know um yet my grandmother was she was the man and a woman. So she's the one who basically, and I used to hate it growing up because I just felt like, well, when am I going to become a child, you know, and play like other kids? And she was like this. She was super straight. She was like assertive, hardworkingworking you know there's hardly time to do like all the like the games like other kids are doing you know so i grew up with that kind of focus which i hated because i wanted to be a kid you know but then it taught me so much about just work,

having a work ethic. And that's how I'm able to just pick up and leave wherever I can, you know. I always referenced this conversation I had with the guy that trained Michael Jordan in Kobe. And he told me that, you know, these things when we're young, they end up being the consequence of our greatness,

of our talent, these hardships we have. But they also always come with a cost. So the lack of play, the lack of a father figure, the situation of you growing up in a house where you didn't have electricity, you're milking cows, your food is cooked by you creating a fire, et cetera. What is the cost?

I can, the lesson and the value it gave you is so clear. But what is the cost? Lots. One of them is just being to myself, to a point where I have a very small cycle of friends because I was never a social guy, you know. So I was, as a kid, I always had to do all the work alone because your friends will sometimes come, you know,

but then they realized, okay, every day, you know but then they realized okay every day you know so they're not gonna always come so I was always like a loner growing up and then I kind of like got comfortable with that got comfortable with trusting my thoughts and my decisions, you know, like being confident in just myself without needing people, you know, and that has like affected a lot of like personal relationships where if I just feel a little bit uneasy, I will just remove myself. And it's not hard for me because I'm like, what I really know is myself, you know, but it's, it's, um, um, something I want to start working on because I'm quick to create a comfortable space. I can meet a stranger and I'm quick to just like,

but I'm much quicker to move as well. And it's something that I feel is not like real, but it's doable because I'm always on the move I feel is not like real, you know, but it's doable because I'm always on the move and, and, and, and, you know, but there are things that I'm like, I need to work on, you know. Typically, you know, I think there's a bit of a stereotype that black men aren't the best at emotions. And some, some people point out sort of generational cycles for that.

Did you learn how to express your emotions when you were young? No. I was terrible at it. And there was no one. Like I said, my grandmother was quite tough. So, and I look at how I am with my kids. You can see when you've pushed a little bit hard, you know, in conversation with someone and you are able to bring them back, you know, and explain like, look, I'm sorry. You know, I was a bit loud there.

This is why. And, you know, like, so that they understand all the dynamics. You know, and the older generation was the one that will whip you, you know, and tell you it's going to hurt me more than it hurts you. And that's it. You'll get over it. Because as a child, you have unconditional love for your parent you'll eventually get over it and you're the one coming back making jokes like nothing happened you know um but i didn't have like a good role model in in anything even this you know uh i used to like avoid, I still do this, doing interviews, because there's just, again, society pressure that if I'm good at making music, Am I good in public speaking?

So if I play songs nice, am I now a role model to your children more than you? You know, but society will say, oh, don't act this way. My kids look up to you. And I'm like, but I'm just a DJ who's living his life. And all of a sudden it's like, no, no, no, but you can't. You can't tweet like this because it's you.

You know, so in the beginning, all I wanted to do was just play music. Like I was that kid. Even if I'm not invited at a party, I bring my record box and I wait and I hope they give me a chance you know that's all I wanted to do why? why music?

because it's always been my escape you know in that house where I used to live and all I did was work and that in my room music helped me so much to dream of these moments you know like if i listen to to michael jackson i imagine where he lives or in america and that one day i'll go there

you know um that's it it really like took me to all these places so So it became my friend, you know. And I never had an explanation as to even then what I would do with it. Like when I finished high school, I'm like, I'm going to go to college and study. And my cousins were like, are you crazy? Then what are you going to do? I didn't know. Do you want to be a teacher? I'm like, no, but this Then what are you going to do? I didn't know. Do you want to be a teacher?

I'm like, no, but this is what I want to do. As long as I was surrounded by music, that's all I wanted to do, you know, because it just, it brought me so much peace, happiness, you know, and this is why I share it. I share it because of what it does to me. You know, it's my way of healing people the same way it healed me. I don't know if I'm making sense. You make perfect sense.

You know, I sat here and I sat with the biggest comedians in this country. And typically with comedians, the stereotype is that the comedian is depressed. So they started cracking jokes. And then one of the comedians came here and said to me, he said, you shouldn't be asking, you should never ask a comedian if they're depressed because it's usually that they were doing comedy because one of their parents were depressed. So comedy became a way for them to see a smile on their mother's face for the first time or to see their father smile for the first time.

Music and the role it played in your household and just in your environment outside of yourself. I was wondering, as you're saying that, is it also something that created happiness in others when you were young that you saw like your, your family or your. Yeah.

Before we moved uh uh to to my grandmother's place in the eastern cape the structure of my family back then was my entire family lived in one house or not entire but my father and his brothers so there was about four families and that's where music was like a thing you know one of my uncles my father's brother had like a small call them ghetto blasters. Yeah. Yeah. So he was the music guy. He loved reggae.

He used to play reggae a lot. That's where my first love for reggae came from. Like anything as a kid, I used to know different Peter Tosh albums, Bob Marley and the Wailers and all that kind of music. And every now and then, then it would be the pop that was happening at the time. And he will take it out and all of us will be out there and we'll dance, you know?

That's, that's my, my earliest childhood memories with music is that in that big family when it's hot and it's summer and we're just all outside and he plays the music and now we dance. Anything with, with plays the music and we dance. Anything with music, you would find me. That's why I never knew what I would do with it, you know, but I just knew wherever it is, sometimes they would send me to the shops

and in the townships, sometimes there would be like a big Coca-Cola truck. Maybe they're promoting a new flavor and it's parked in this. They play music. They send me to buy bread and I don't come back. Literally, because I'm just there. I'm just listening to music. I don't leave, literally, and I get into trouble. So wherever there was music, that's how I got into it.

Because my cousin, who's also our neighbor, he and his friend had a mobile sound system. So they were doing weddings, like graduation parties. And so during the week, you'll have the sound system connected, like just small speaker and you play loud music and I'll go there. So I spent days there. And then I started like they used to use like cassettes and you rewind with the pen so that's how I started and I would like learn and I was curious and then they will take me to the day parties then I'll be the opening DJ you know but I was so curious that I developed a style of playing.

I was a little bit advanced in understanding tempos of the songs. And so I wouldn't just randomly play. I would play songs that were close together in tempo. And so all of a sudden the mixes were like almost flawless. And people were like, then I became their main DJ, you know, by 14, 15, I was like their main DJ and the people booking them would tell them, bring that black boy. I was like super dark as a kid.

Bring him, you know, and then I was more curious. Then I started collecting records. Then I bought tentacles and they were my own and they bring the system. I plug more things, you know, and then when I finished school and I moved to another city back to Devon, where there was more access to things, then I really got into it. So I was studying jazz music, but I was a DJ on the side. And sometimes I would bring tentacles into the school studio. You know, it was such a fascinating thing for the jazz students because we were there like learning jazz scales and like the theory of music. And I'm here with my DJing equipment, you know.

At some point, actually, while I was a jazz student and a DJ, I did a classical play. Like all three at the same time, you know, because me and a friend of mine in the hallway at school because we were in the choir we were singing one of the songs we sang in high school in a choir and one of the school lecturers had us and she was shocked because we were jazz students she was like wow you guys you know this is classical music like you sound so nice there's a play that's happening

at the playhouse called the pirates of penzance if you were like cool so we went we auditioned we got the parts so we would do jazz studies after school we go practice at the playhouse and we went to perform we did um i was opening the show like i was a tenor you know um just anything that i had to do with music so from from jazz when i was young sorry uh reggae then i went through different stages and there was a time where I was like obsessed with like fusion, then gospel music, then classical music. And I didn't understand what I was being prepared for. You know, all these years I kept being exposed

to different types and I'm a DJ. So then my taste varies based on understanding these different genres. That's why I was able to, in 2010, do a show with a 24-piece orchestra. Because... 8,000 people? Yeah, in the stadium. So of course I was exposed to this music and I knew where to breach, you know, the gap. The 10th of February.

Pivotal day in your life your life yeah tell me about that day man 1990 yeah i was talking to to someone about it because it's a story that it was for years hard for me to share you know and i'm in a better space now. I'm able to talk about it. Street Grandmother, we're at home on the 10th, which was like around eight at night. And she was super strict. No one comes out the house that late. We were sitting in the house.

I think after dinner, we hear like people singing outside we all come out everyone i mean comes out to see what's happening and it was people singing there were a group of people about to pass our house we ran to the crowd with my cousins you know we were not allowed to but this was nice so there wasn't a big thing even I mean for her but my cousin my cousins went back I didn't why music so I followed the crowd and the reason this was happening is because on the 11th of February, Nelson Mandela was officially coming out of jail after 27 years. So there was like jubilations around the entire country. This was happening in all the major cities where people were like, we're going to stay up all night until the morning, you know, of his release. So this crowd was going to a stadium which is close to my house

that's where the the camping was going to be the singing until the morning in the stadium so they went on the streets basically gathering more crowds and we were now close to the stadium and just out of nowhere, we just heard this sound. And it was a car, just came out of nowhere, lights off, just rammed through the crowd. So I was not in the front, but I was maybe like 20% in. And I just blacked out and people were screaming and when I woke up there was fire you know people were angry so basically this driver switched off the lights to literally just kill people with his car. And so they bent the car,

or they bent the guy too. They burnt the guy? Yeah. They pulled him out of the car and killed him? Yeah, literally. And he stayed there for hours, actually, without anyone coming for him. Because I remember, this happened happened at four in the morning went to a hospital around maybe 30 minutes later the cars took us to hospital

i came back from the hospital around seven eight he was still, like not even covered. His car, he was still lying there on the ground. That cost his life and someone else's life who was also in the crowd. So by that time, I mean, it's seven in the morning, I'm back from hospital. The announcement happens. Nelson Mandela is finally out of jail. We're watching this from TV. I'm sitting on the couch. You know, there's just chaos in the country. People are so happy. This man is finally out. And I was on the couch in pain, you know, after the accident. And I think what really happened to me, I don't think the car

reached to me. I don't think the car touched me. I think the force of the people that were in front because of the impact, they pushed so hard. So what happened is I dislocated my shoulder, but severely. I had no bruises, no cuts. It just came off, meaning my nerves that connect the arm to the body were snatched. And being in a small town, when I went to the hospital, no one knew what to do. So I'm there, I'm holding my arm like, they don't know if it's broken,

they don't know what to do with it, you know. So they just gave me a sling and pain tablets and I went back home. But the pain couldn't stop. And then the following day, then I went to Devon, which is the bigger city, to go to like a bigger hospital where I stayed for three months in the hospital. You know, and even there, they didn't know what to do.

One morning they were like, okay, we figured it out. They put a cast. So I'd have a cast for like two weeks but the damage was here but i was a kid as well so i didn't understand you know um so it the injury is called brachial plexus which is um the damage of of nerves and there's nothing you can do to fix damaged nerves. They can only fix themselves. So over time, so they tried different things. At some point, I remember I was being taken to like a specialist

to see if there was life on my arm. So because they were thinking of amputating my arm. So they put this device that had electricity to see if I'm going to feel it. And there was just like probably like 5% of life. And he was like, no, we don't have to do it. Over time, the nerves will grow back. And that's what has happened, you know. And as a kid, I mean, I was 14.

It was life-changing, you know. There's things I wasn't able to do. Activities. There was just things I couldn't. I was in a music class, you know. So I couldn't participate on the piano uh like lessons and we used to play recorders and so i went through a phase where it really affected me and just over time i was like actually i have a life to live when you say you went through a phase where it really affected you,

what does that mean specifically? Like, why me? I mean, when you are born, fine, all of a sudden. And kids can be mean. So the name calling comes and, you know, because also I thought it was going to pass. And as a kid, I didn't even have dreams. You know, I wake up, I'm like, oh, I had a dream last night.

My hand was working and I was doing this. And, you know, and so to me, it was like, maybe next week, maybe next month, you know, I'm going to be fine again. And so I went through a lot of that, you know, and then eventually acceptance. Okay. This is what it is. You know, I have to leave. I have to move on. And I kind of like stopped thinking about it and just focused on what's next.

How do I learn to tie my shoes, you know, or just wake up and do everything without calling for help. That was the most important thing for me because I didn't want to feel sorry for myself. That's the most important thing where I was like, I need to learn how not to call anyone for anything. Zero, like then that was a big thing for me. What's the, what condition is your left,

your left arm in now as we sit here? It has gained probably like 40% movement. And let me put it this way. When it happened, I would literally close my eyes and I would know it was. Okay. So it was paralyzed at that point. Yeah. The whole arm.

I wouldn't know whether it's here or here or here, you know. So over time, I've started feeling things I can differentiate between hot water and cold water. And every now and then, because that's another thing. I used to do physiotherapy a lot. And I was a kid and after school I go and I train and that depressed me even more because I was waiting for results, you know, and I thought I'm training for muscle that wasn't coming. So I couldn't see anything.

And when I stopped, I stopped everything. I stopped thinking about it. I stopped waiting for it to be better. Acceptance. Yeah. So even now it's like, if I woke up and it was fine, do I even need it? That's where I'm at. Like, it doesn't really matter.

You know, I think my life has turned out the exactly how it's supposed to. This happened to you when you were 14, but you didn't share it with the world until 2017 in a Facebook post? Yeah. Because as an artist, I just felt like I did not want to be seen as that guy. Who has a disability, you know, where it's like, you know, like I didn't want a pity party.

You know, I just wanted to be understood and heard like everyone else, you know. So my first album came out in 2005. That's it. I just worked on music, released it. I used to DJ the way I do and people used to think, this guy, he plays with his hand in his pocket. What's with that? You know, like, it looks cool, but what's, you know?

I thought you were just the coolest motherfucker people were like because the hand thing in the pocket happened when i was a kid and because i used to have the sling and even when i ran with other kids and i used to have to hold this hand because it was just moving everywhere and one day i was like i just put it in the pocket and i was like damn this is more functional than having a sling. And I never stopped, you know? And so it wasn't even a thing that was like so deep. It just happened when I was young.

And I was like, actually, I feel comfortable like this. And over time it became, you know, I think, cause also being the introvert that I am, it helps me in not explaining myself. Cause everyone, even now there's things like that, I'm support, you can buy them from pharmacy. I have them. So when I'm home, I use that. And, or when I have people at my house, I have them. So when I'm home, I use that. And when I have people at my house, I use it.

Or when I swim, even people who know me are like, are you okay? What happened? You know, these were things I was avoiding to be having to explain myself all the time. Like, you know, I was like, I sit and I look normal like everyone else. And there's people, promise you, in my life today who don't know.

And it's fine. Did it make you work harder or have to work harder to get to where you are today? Definitely. Definitely. Especially as a DJ, you know, because I just felt like this thing was trying to rob me of this one thing that I really, really love and I will not allow it, you know.

So it made me, in that sense, not even in a sense of who's going to employ me, I'm fucked. My life is a mess. It was like, if there's one thing I'm not going to lose is music, I won't stop. I have to be a DJ. I have to.

I have to. And I'm from the cassette era to the vinyl. I mean, how do you take a vinyl out of a vinyl package with one hand? And this used to stress me. And when I look at it, I'm like, how will I become a professional DJ? You know, and it takes me not, it took me not thinking. I just like did it, you know, like, I'm like, this is one thing I want to do.

So I just went all the way. I would go to school. I remember there was a time where I would spend at least two hours every day DJing. I didn't play for a club or every day, two hours of my time because I and I used to say this like I just want to be ready like one day when someone says you're a DJ I must boldly say yeah um you know and I look now and I play sometimes, I'm like, man, you're good.

Like, I look, I'm like, wow. You know, because I developed a style, you know, of playing that is my own, based on understanding myself and what I can do. You know, I have a friend, Sienda, who grew up with, he's also a DJ. And when I started, like, back in the day, like, really, when I was spending time practicing, I used to be really crazy. And he says this all the time,

like, they don't even know how crazy you are because now I don't do I don't do anything I just play less is more you know I'm more experienced now but my understanding of it

is like on a different level you know but I'm at a space where I'm like I don't have to do you know that's where I'm at I think I have to yeah I don't have to do, you know. That's where I'm at.

I think I have to. Yeah. I don't have to because I've been there. It's like learning the basic course and you go to an advanced course, you know, go advanced driving. Doesn't mean you're going to come on the road and drive like you were on the advanced driving school you know it's just understanding and knowing like when i look at this thing

it's part of me the deck yeah when you were asked i think you were you were in your early 20s they asked you you know i think you just was that around the time you've done the red bull um your early 20s they asked you in an interview where you were going to be in two years. Oh man. Do you remember? That was a scary thing for me. I remember that.

I'll never forget it. You know, I don't think that was me talking. You know, I just, it was, it was black coffee. Someone I wasn't yet, you know, because I was never that guy. You know, I didn't have, I don't want to insult my schools and say I didn't have the right education. But, you know, I look at my kids' schools where they go to, they learn public speaking.

They know how to present themselves and they know how to get across a point, a point across. They know how to speak. And I'm not from there. Everything that I kind of like have, I had to figure it out myself, you know. And so doing an interview then being asked this question and at the worst time of my life then and give and give that answer because the question was where do you see yourself and i said they said in two years and i said in five years just gave myself time i said in five years

i'm going to be one of the most important producers. I don't know if I said of the continent or the country, you know, which actually I'm proud of that because it could have been worse. You know, I could have said, I want to be number one. I want to be the baddest motherfucker. I would have said something crazy like pampas you know my answer was still like very modest and but i was clear about what i wanted you know uh but after saying

it i freaked out because then i realized i need to own this i need to own it and i need to then start working towards it you know and yeah and then two years later which was the question I released my album and I won my first award for best album you know which was low-key then I was the best producer in the genre in the country, you know. But I think, I don't know, like, if it's the awards that drive me or just success itself, because the narrative that, oh, it's probably, like, I get a a Grammy that like, he wants something more. He wants more, he wants more. And I don't think I look at things like that.

I think I just know that I can do more than an award. I can do more than an achievement. I can do more than, you know, I'm capable. That's it. That's what I'm fighting for, you know, I'm capable. That's it. That's what I'm fighting for, you know. And it's a little boy in me who was milking cows, who had no friends, who was like, I can, especially coming from where I come from.

And that's it. It's never really about I'm the smartest one and I'm gonna be the best one I'm the most gifted one it's just like I started with nothing I'm from like nowhere really like so and I had nothing to lose you know so I threw myself in and i just want to keep going when you look back at the you know you said that in your early 20s two years later your album wins um wins that amazing award your career continues to go to the moon um when you look back in hindsight with wisdom and say ah because i think it's always in hindsight you go that's why i got here you've talked about the obsessiveness yeah i get that i get the drive the hunger but as it relates to the creativity

and the the craftsmanship and all the other things why you and why not some other young you know south african dj from the eastern cape i think, it's what I think. It's just being intentional about what you want. The people I work with from the beginning, there's always just like, the goal is similar. We don't try to, I don't think we chase number one. You know, we just want quality. We strive for quality.

We understand the less is more concept. I've never, and I've treated this once in my country as well. I've never gone for like a one song of the year. Those things scare me. I just want to release music that has the kind of substance that I love. Why do those things scare you? Because I just feel like then you have to keep chasing the number one so if i am this year then i must be next year otherwise then there's a deep that's going to

come with that if i'm not so we do what we're comfortable with because what we're comfortable with we can do it again you know and improve it and improve it. So the goal is always the same, like not to try and go mainstream. It's just be comfortable. You know, you can wake me up tomorrow and be like, can you make a song like Drive? I'll be like, I can probably better than oh i can never make that song again because wow you know it's in my space you know everything is in my sound bank everything i work with is always around you know and also i think now i'm clearer as to who I am as an artist.

You know, I'm more of, I'll say 65% DJ. That's where all my energy is. And then 35% producer. Having sat here with Diplo and other artists, Jesse Jay, The Boys From One Direction, Liam Payne, what I heard over and over again from them is that with success in music, there becomes more authority figures,

record labels, et cetera, telling you how you should sound and telling you that if you sound like this then you'll get a number one and it'll be mainstream etc etc how important over the course of your career as you look back has it been to try and stay true to yourself despite the temptation to fit someone's that's an easy part for us, you know, because first of all, what am I looking for? Like what I just explained to you now is being more DJ than a producer. So DJing pays our bills.

That's our core business. Therefore, that's where we're going to be strongest. And releasing music is the second part of the business so it being the second part of the business means it's not the main thing and so there's no pressure in then following all the trends that come. And I've been quite fortunate in my career from the beginning. When I released my first album, I released it with a licensing deal, meaning I did it on my own and I submitted it to a label. So no one could say, we don't like number five take out number seven don't you

want to fix number two you know it was a done and packaged album and that's been the nature of my production career where the last album that i did was the first album with a label in the US where there was that authority, you know, and it would mostly come as, we're not sure about this one. But what I did, I separated my African releases from the global releases. Therefore, when they're like, we're not sure, I'm like, it's okay, I'll release it in Africa. Where I know it will make more sense. And also it fits the sound that I'm doing, that I want to do. So I remember one of the songs I released

was a song called Your Eyes with a South African artist called Shikano. Brilliant song. And they were like, hmm, nah. I released it. And immediately after it came out, they changed their minds. They were like, okay, maybe not. We'll also release the song, you know,

because we were not following what they want, you know, and we were cool with it, you know. Then after I released an EP called Music is King, which was purely, purely for like the African markets, because even now I don't have a label. So I don't have to have these conversations about what song I want to do and how does it sound. But still, when I do, my team knows I want to separate the two.

Africa must be on its own, because one day I may wake up and be like i've always been a fan of solidificator i want to do a song in solidificator i want to do a song with solidificator being a grammy winning artist if you put that song on an album that album might not be nominated on the Dance Electronic album because the language is foreign. They will take that album and shelve it with the world music. That means you're competing against your African brothers

and sisters, which is what I really hate. So my point is I then separate the two. If I want to do a single with an african artist i can do that if i want to do like a grammy quality kind of work i can still do it but i'm fortunate not to have those kind of gatekeepers and authority that tell me no and i can understand with the diplos in them you know their their structures are different but we we're fortunate to we've structured our things well how many shows so you said 60 djing how many shows do you do in a busy year i don't know, man. Ibiza, this summer, I think I did 21.

Just Ibiza alone. All Saturdays at high, right? Yeah. I was there for two of them. So just Saturdays alone in Ibiza, like 21 of them. And subbing them since May. So meaning every weekend, Thursday, Friday, I'm somewhere else. Sunday, I'm somewhere else sunday i'm somewhere else every weekend every weekend so thursday friday saturday and sunday and sunday yeah sometimes you're gonna be flying

around that's what we do yeah so before high i'm somewhere else after high i'm somewhere else. After high, I'm somewhere else. Like I had a show here on a Sunday yesterday. I have a show on Tuesday tomorrow. You know, so sometimes it's Tuesday, sometimes it's Wednesdays. But every summer it's like, for every Saturday, there's a Thursday and a Friday and a Sunday sometimes.

How many shows is that in a year though, if you were to add it up? Is it, because I read that it was more than 150 sometimes? No, it is. Yeah, definitely. That's a lot of shows. I think I, you know, I had, I did my little tour of this podcast

and we did nine and I was fucking knackered. We did nine shows in two months and I was like, ha ha, I need to wait another year before I do that. Because of the adrenaline and all the feelings and the emotion and the performance and it's late and whatever else. How? No, I think at this point, I mean, this is what we do. You know, if you look at the, you made a reference about michael jordan and cobe can you imagine like the

hours they spend like to get to that level you know um it becomes second nature you know the first thing that comes to mind is that little boy milking cows i'm like this is a blessing. So nine shows, you must have made good money for you to complain. I don't think we made any money. You're like, I'm done. I'm retiring.

But I do wonder because, you know, I hear about the, the kid that was milking the cows with no electricity back in back in South Africa and you know as sometimes my fear is that that kid is going to when that kid becomes an adult he will make decisions which will compromise other needs because he's so driven to survive definitely at some point as you said before I think we start recording you've got to step out of. At some point, as you said before, I think we started recording,

you've got to step out of survival at some point and go, now we live. That's why therapy is such an important thing, you know, for us. I mean, I've had so many different conversations with South African artists. Some I've had conflict with. And, you know, when we meet

and try to solve the conflict, I'm like, let me tell you what's going to help all of us is therapy. Because how do I go from being that boy, you know, living in the same community where like no one even looked at me, you know, and you fast forward, I'm coming back to that same community, like in a Lamborghini and everyone wants a picture. And it's a mindfuck just to me, you know. So you need to really work on yourself when you cross that line

where it's like someone you looked up to uh as a kid you thought this guy's so successful and you realize that actually you are the successful one so how is the shift then even in respecting that person you know because then one was like i I'm the king now, you know? Then another is like, you're still the king. You did this before me. I'm paying so much respects to you. So it's a very thin line between seeing yourself

as the king over everyone else or knowing you are and still respecting everyone else and that's the balance for me and it took me such a long time and i'm still battling and i'm working on it and i'm a little bit better now in understanding the difference between natty and black coffee what is the difference between natty and black, the little boy and yourself as a DJ? Black Coffee has all the privileges, right? Like, it's a joke in my house. And sometimes when I want to go eat in a restaurant and I think late, I'm like, damn, I need to go.

And, you know, and I tell my sister, please book. And then she's like, oh, well, not now. It used to happen like that. She's like, oh oh it's fully booked and then i'm like no but just tell them who's calling and then she's like oh yeah yeah table for two sorted you know those are the perks of those are black coffee packs where it's like if not too cold the restaurant is full is if black coffee cold there's a seat for you there's a table for you so not is the kid that grew up

going through magazine and seeing model girls you know, wow, if one day I can have a girlfriend like this, right? That's Nati. But Nati never had access to that and never would, given where he comes from. But Black Coffee has access to that. So then sometimes Natty uses black coffee, you know, to, to, to satisfy Natty,

where it's like, instead of saying, hi, I'm Natty, it's, oh, you're black coffee. And I'm like,

yeah, you understand. So it's a, it's two different things to a point where even where I live now, it's crazy, but that's how it is. I first bought myself a house. This is with my divorce story that's not even final. I moved out of the house.

So I'm like, life is going to be so dope. Now that I'm a single guy and i live in this apartment and in between tours i go back and like wow and then toys over i'm back home i'm sitting i'm like is this my life you know like i just the house i left i just finished building now i live in an apartment like a student. Let me look for a house for myself. Then I look for a house and I found it. So I have the house, but now I'm like, it's a big house.

But it's lonely because I'm from family. I live alone. So I'm like, mom, don't you want to move and come stay with me? Which I think is a noble thing, you know, because my mom had like a heart problem. So she moves and then I have the warmth of the family, right? It's nice. And I'm like, but is this my life?

Like I live with my mother. So, I mean, I can't bring my friends here. Like I can't have a little party because my mom is in the other room. Then it bothers me so much. And I think i remember having a conversation with my friend i'm like man i love it but at the same time i even told her you know i'm like i just feel like this can't be it you know i'm like i'm about to finalize my divorce and i live with my mother you know and the most incredible thing happened i get a phone call just that week when it was stressing me so much i get a phone call it's a number i don't know i'm like yo and then this

guy's like my name is michael i'm your neighbor and we have this long conversation on the phone and then he's like by the way way, I'm selling my house. And I'm going away. We're moving to another country. And just letting you know as a neighbor. And I was like, oh, thank you, God. Because it was like a solution. So I bought the neighbor's house.

And in my crazy head bought the neighbor's house. And in my crazy head, the neighbor's house, that's where my mom and children are going to stay. That's a naughty house. Right? That's where you're going to find me on the floor,

on the grass, playing with my children. The next door, that's the black coffee house. I want to come to the black coffee house. You know, but the thing is about the black coffee house, which is what,

before we started recording, you were asking me what's on my mind and I was telling you legacy, legacy, legacy. I want to build black coffee house as like a black coffee house. I would be like a future black coffee house.

Okay. Not a current black coffee house that would be like a future black coffee house okay not a current black coffee house not current but it will be a future this is where he used to live okay you know so I'm very much intentional about the things I collect

the art on the wall like everything that I do I'm doing to create value in the house. You know, to have Steve come to this house and we take a picture by the pool and it goes to the wall of fame. Oh, nice. You know, so. Tell me when.

You know, like creates this value out of it. You know, any kind of friends that are, you know, like unknown in the world that come to visit. We create all the memorabilia even the suit i wore at the grammys you know frame it and you know so i've kept it and the shoes and you know like that's the whole idea to kind of like build a like a legacy project for my kids who are living next door you know in a normal setting where they're not exposed to or their lives are normal you know you're not like having a day with the kids in the pool and then drake's walk drake is walking in you know like steve ballard you know what i mean so

that's the difference between the between black coffee and nutty i'm just like taking it that far where i'm understanding the different dynamics when you told me the story of going from a divorce in a house to an apartment penthouse to a house with your mother to then moving next door back in on your own it sounded to me like someone that was struggling to try and have the best of both worlds continually yeah because in your own words you were told that the best life was to be married yeah tried that yeah you discovered that for you it wasn't so you went back to the penthouse yeah which is where yeah which is where i was like damn bachelor single we're about to yeah

and then you're in the penthouse you go fuck i need to be back in the house environment yeah and then you get the mother you're in the penthouse. You go, fuck, I need to be back in the house. I need a family environment. Yeah. And then you get the mother back in and the mom comes in and you go, fuck. Actually, no. The day my divorce is signed, how do I celebrate? You know, it can't be in front of my mother, you know. So you're right.

But remember, it's all the search. That's what it is. Searching for happiness. And in the end, I don't think we're going to be able to find and define it. What is your happiness? It's going to be, it's not a destination you know it's gonna be like a series of different things you know where boxes are ticked you know if all those boxes are ticked

though are you then happy you can't take them all because Because life is so long and we keep discovering things to take. And they all have different meanings. Which is where the small boy's journey ends. Because if it was the small boy's boxes to take, by now we would be done. You understand? So there's boxes of an adult, like you're saying, you live here and then you extend

and then, you know, upstairs you keep and then you're going to be like, actually, I need to buy another building. That's how it is. But all these things, we're never going to stop. I often think that, I was thinking there about advice and,

you know, a lot of that advice tends to come from our parents, but I often think that when we've come from a place of hardship, and I just think generally, I think this a lot in my own life, there's words that I wish I said or could say now to my parents.

There's words that I wish I could say to my, um, my mother, my father. You spoke so lovingly at the beginning of this conversation about the role that your mother played in your life. Is your mother still with us? Yes. She is? Yep. I spoke to her on my way here.

She is, yo. Are there any words that you found difficult to spoke to her on my way here. She is young. Are there any words that you found difficult to say to her? Um, not anymore. You know, I love you was one of them. Because she, it was never part of our family as like an African family to have that kind of warmth and these kind of conversations. You know, even our hugs are still a little bit awkward, but they're still hugs because it's never been, their generation didn't do that. You know, they would show you and you would know your parents love you. In the best way they will do it. You know, and being a parent, I am so much aware of how I want to teach my kids to be able to say it

and like randomly hug them because I never, you know, had that growing up. And then in the end, we are the ones who come back and teach our parents, you know, no matter how awkward it gets, you know, teach them to say, and they, then they learn, even though it's like, it's not something they know. Yeah.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. They write it in the book. They don't know who they're writing it for. The question that was written for you. And it's funny. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah. They've written a question for you, but they didn't know who they're writing it for the question that was written for you and it's funny oh oh yeah they've written a question for you but they didn't know who they're writing it for which

is the most amazing thing ever when you hear this question what is your favorite sound laughter why because people laugh when they are happy and going back to what I said in the beginning I think personally that's what we're searching for as a human race

we're just looking for happiness thank you thank you for being so generous with your time thank you for giving me some of the best nights of my life thank you for um coming here inspiring me thank you for your your vulnerability which i know will help so many people and thank you just for being a creative inspiration for me as i said i'm i'm trying to dj at the moment i've got my decks upstairs so um i i've read that you're looking for, you know, young South African talent.

So come get me. The South African from Botswana. South of Africa. I know, I know, I know. But yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, man. Thank you.

Appreciate, appreciate the invitation. It was really, I was nervous about coming here, you know, like, you know, like, you know, opening up and, but it worked out well. Thank you. Thanks. Bye.