The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Jamie Carragher: The Untold Story of Liverpool Legend That Pushed Himself Too Far

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

There is love for the beautiful game and then there is the all consuming passion that Jamie Carragher has for football. From a top class player to one its best television pundits, Jamie has devoted his life and career to the sport. From a working class upbringing as a Bootle boy to “Mr Liverpool”, Jamie has always stayed loyal to his roots and to the city that nurtured and supported him in reaching the heights that his career soared to. However, the sense of duty Jamie felt for his city and its supporters loaded him with a crippling pressure and mental toll. In this intimate conversation, Jamie opens the door to a level of sporting achievement that only a select few people ever get to see, discussing both its highs and lows, victories on the pitch and in the mind. As well as the journey from a boyhood fan to the local legend that is ‘Carra’. Jamie: Twitter - https://bit.ly/3FQ1VkC Instagram - https://bit.ly/3BQhqrC Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States

and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team and thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I couldn't get it out of my mind. I had to get hold of a psychologist.

I was just like, this can't go on. Jamie Carragher is a Liverpool stalwart. 730-odd appearances. There's never going to be another Jamie Carragher. He's a winner. He's got to shoot. He will, you know. That's just ridiculous. I'm no huge Ronaldo fan.

I think that's pretty obvious. It's sad for him, the way people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo and it's completely different. It's almost like he feels like he's not rated even. I've got so much admiration for him for his mental strength. To be able to withstand pressure, criticism and I saw too many players never recover from that.

I knew from the first time I played football to me winning was all that mattered. If you say to me what do I miss most about being a professional footballer? It's winning. I'd rather cheat and win than not win. When Jamie loses a game, is he different? I punished myself when I didn't perform well, and I regret that,

but there was always that thing of, am I good enough? I was just driving myself mad when I was at my absolute peak and best. That's when I needed more help. The fear in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't want to be there. I always remember, and the only time I've ever did this in my whole career. Much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality

in some of the toughest moments. Where does that come from? The reason why I've become the player I have, I think it's... Jamie, when I start this podcast, I usually start with people's childhoods. But as I was reading through your story, I think this is the first time I'm going to start before the person was even born because I I read that there was a possibility that you weren't even going to be born because of a I guess a misdiagnosis that your mother was given about you can you take me back to that yeah that was uh would have been about what I say would have been about 1977 obviously

78 I was born and my mum had had two miscarriages before me and then when she fell pregnant with me the doctors nurses didn't know what was wrong,

but they knew something was wrong. And initially they were saying, we think your child has got spina bifida. And I think, well, I'm saying it in those days, maybe I don't know if it's the same now. There's a chance you could terminate the pregnancy if the baby was whatever, you know. And my mum was, I think, was given that option.

And my mum was very holy, I think is the right word. Probably at that stage, in her early 20s, she would be going to church every day. She still goes every Sunday now. So her thing was now if, the way she says to me was if our lord wants me to have a baby who's got spina bifida or maybe something else that's that's what's being decided for me that's fine it's my child i love that child and what i find fascinating when you think of sort of today is that the closer it got to the me being born it wasn't spina bifida but they still knew something wasn't right and it wasn't until

i was born that i had basically my insides were on the outside so i've i've uh gastro gastroschitis it's called, the condition now I've got a big scar right across my stomach I mean if someone has that condition today and plenty of babies do, it's a really small scar but the thing that I think is fascinating or just makes me think

wow, on my mum's side is the fact that as soon as I was born I was rushed away, straight away, to Alder Hey Children's Hospital, which is still going strong today in Liverpool. And because of what I've gone to achieve, I've got a real link with the hospital. And through our charity, we actually funded the ward

that looks after babies who have what I had. But I get rushed away to Children's Hospital and my mum doesn't know anything. There's no phones. She's still in Versace Hospital. Obviously, I've got a problem straight up to older hair. My dad goes straight there. But again, the technology isn't like that. And I just think, how think how long it must have been before when my mum knew i was all right

what i had how quickly that's to go you know you can't quite fathom that when you think about today and how quickly we can get in touch with with different people so uh i just think about what was going through my mum's mind there for that sort of the next hour or two until you know she probably found out everything was okay. Your knowledge of that story and that experience, has that left a lasting impact or impression on you? In terms of the decision your mum made or being whisked away or the operation or having this guy or anything like that, has that left any sort of impression on you at all yes all about my mum i would say you know to to to have had two miscarriages to have that going through your third pregnancy to think you could lose the baby the no one can quite give you a definitive answer

about what's going on with you know this child in your stomach and then to to not know straight away i just and i just i only know of now and when people have kids and i've had my own kids and everything's so documented isn't it whether it's you know the first picture instagram you're there with the the baby when the baby's born i i wasn't actually maybe we can get to that later i I wasn't there for my firstborn. And that's something I do regret. But I just think about how my mum must have felt and sort of me looking at my mum, because I've been very lucky in the life I now lead, the experience that I've had.

You know, it's not there if my mum doesn't make certain decisions. Not only with my dad, of course, but, yeah, for my mum to sort of make that decision. And I'm still here today. What about your dad? Talk to me about him and his character and what impact that had on you before the age of 10. He's a real big character.

Yeah, he's, you know, he's... He'll be in the pub. He'll have a debate. He'll get up and sing. He'll have a debate. He'll get up and sing. He'll have an argument with someone. He's like a real larger than life sort of character. Who did you care about impressing the most? Just not even in the context of your parents,

but just who were you trying to impress when you were young? Because for me, it might have been my older brothers. It could have been my dad. It could have been a teacher. Who are you trying to impress? I mean, the obvious one is to could have been my dad it could have been you know a teacher who are you trying to impress i mean the obvious one is to say is my dad because he was the one who was always there in terms of he talked about football oh yeah yeah my mom never watched me play football okay i mean my mom must have watched me play five times in my life and that's nothing to do with not being proud of me or not being there but

I know it's not the done thing now but it was almost a case of my dad took us to football and my mum stayed at home you know and did what we associate with women things and now obviously that type of comment or them thoughts certainly back then be classed as

sexist now and rightly so but that was just the way it was it wasn't i don't think my mum was sort of badgering me dad to go to the football she always just felt well okay that's your thing to take them to the football whether to be going to watch everton as young kids or you know play me games for you know amateur teams bootle boys and i want to start on that journey and when you when he took you to, did he have high standards and expectations for you when you were playing? Yes, but I think that came not because he was so desperate for me to be a footballer.

I think that became because I think he knew pretty early on I had something. You know, my dad had played football, my dad had played football. My dad had watched football. My dad was a massive football fan. So he'd done everything you could do in football in terms of playing amateur football, managed amateur teams, went to watch Everton home and away. So he was just, he was obsessed with football.

So from a young age, I think he was quite tough on me a couple of times, that stand out, only because he knew the standards I could get to, and one of those times is like a story I put in my book, and I think sometimes when my dad listens back, I think he, I think he doesn't like me to say the story, because I think he looks back at it and thinks, oh, I wish I hadn't done that, but I've got no problem with it, you know, I think it's part of my life, part of my story, that basically, I was seven years of age, and I didn't want to play any game, it you know I think it's part of my life part of my story that basically I was

seven years of age and I didn't want to play in a game it was that cold it was freezing it was hailstorming I got tackled and I pretended I was here crying and come off but he me me dad and I'm the same we we couldn't suffer bluffers or phonies we'd say you know that type of thing and he knew I was putting it on and let's just say it was the last time i did well i read that part in your memoir yeah in your memoir it says there was some raining football boots when you got home yeah maybe there's a little bit of artistic license there with the uh the guy who wrote it but but no i think it was that. And I think throughout my football career, I'm not talking about feigning injury.

I'm talking about the big thing for me. And the big thing for me that I want to pass on to my son is having character. That for me will, will take you to places that you don't think are possible. If you've got that personality mental strength character I think that overrides a lot of things that's really why I'm asking these questions because I could see throughout your career that much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality and character in some of the toughest moments and that's not the case with

all the footballers that I've spoken to that's just the case with all the footballers that I've spoken to. That's just the case with some of them. And even when I sat with Peter Crouch, he referenced you as being so set on winning and so obsessed with winning that he didn't think you were ever enjoying it. And so I'm trying to figure out, and you smile when I say that because you know it's true, I've heard you say that subsequently, but where does that come from? Where does that character and that obsession with victory at all costs to the point that you cause suffering in yourself? Where does that come from? I think, I think me dad and whether you, whether you're born with something like that, maybe, you know, you speak to a lot of probably more people who could give you that answer than i do and maybe have a better insight into it to me in some ways now i'm not quite sure but i knew from the first time i played football

for me winning was all that mattered and if you say to me what do i miss most about being a professional footballer it's winning it's not the taking part, it's not the training. A lot of people always say this, footballers say this all the time, I miss the dressing room. I don't miss the dressing room. I miss the dressing room after the game and we win. That like, oh, you've done something together. And

I listen to Crouchy's podcast because I've seen it pop up somewhere, I think it was made online or something, Peter Crouch said, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, Rit off players after 15. I thought, I'd better listen to this one. But what Peter Crouch said is right. And he's probably looking at me a little bit dumbfounded.

I can't understand that. But I can't understand him. For me, Bill Shankly said football is a matter of life and death and I don't think he meant that, I think that was obviously tongue in cheek at the time and no football club knows that statement is not

true more than Liverpool Football Club but it's very close to being true that's the way I see it football for me is a way of life and winning is all that matters. And for me, when I played, I'd rather cheat and win than not win.

And I don't think I'll ever be any different. And that's why I think football has taken me to places in my life that almost brings a tear to my eye, but it's always taken me to places in my life that almost brings a tear to my eye. But it's always taken me to places where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm ever going to get over it. You know, a result or something hasn't gone well. You mentioned that post-match feeling is the best

and potentially the feeling you miss. But I've also heard you describe it as relief. You know, and that's an interesting thing because people would think the post-match victory feeling would be euphoria and elation. But for you to describe it as relief is a curious word. Because I knew how bad I'd feel if we didn't win or it hadn't gone well.

It was almost relief that I'm not going to feel like that for the next two or three days because I would, I think I punished myself a little bit when I didn't perform well or we didn't win and I regret that but I don't know if I could have done anything different it was what it was me you know I spoke to a side at one stage I spoke to I had to I had to I wasn't asked to I had to get hold of a psychologist, sports psychologist if I knew, because what I was doing to myself was, I was just driving myself mad, really, with the standards I was expecting of myself.

And this, I must say, was not when I was not playing well in shorter conference. This was when I was at my absolute peak and best. That's when I needed more help. Because I got to a stage where I felt I couldn't make a mistake. If I didn't play well, I thought we were going to lose. Because I wasn't daft. I was playing at my best.

I was a huge part of the team. There was sort of me at the back and Stevie, Gerrard at the front, if you like. And there was lots of other great players around there, of course. But I knew I was a huge influence in the Rafa Benitez era. And I'd go into big games thinking, if I don't play well today, we're not going to win. And if I made a mistake, and I always remember the mistake I made,

it was away at Atletico Madrid. Champions League group game, we're winning 1-0, we're under pressure constantly, and I'm playing really well. I'm in control. That was me and my elements away from home in Europe for Liverpool. Trying to get that clean sheet, organising,

talking to everyone. And a long ball, I just misjudged it and he scored. And in the airport on the way home, I was just like, this can't go on. This has got to stop. You know,

what I'm actually doing to myself. I've played great. I've made a little mistake. You know, they can't go on. This has got to stop. You know, what I'm actually doing to myself. I've played great. I've made a little mistake, you know. They've capitalised on it. But you can't put yourself through that. What was the symptoms that you were confronting in that moment? Why, what couldn't carry on? So you'd made that mistake.

You're in the airport, you're on the plane, whatever. What is the, what's happening? I couldn't get it out of my mind. I couldn't, I'd go like two nights when I'm sleeping. I mean, when I say not sleeping, I might get a couple of hours. I'd be like constantly on my mind. I'd wake up, it was the first thing I think about.

And I was just like, what am I doing to myself? But how do you stop it? But the fascinating thing was, when I spoke to the sports psychologist, a guy called Bill Beswick, and I knew him from the England squad. After speaking to him, and then it got to the stage where I spoke to him

probably two or three times a season, almost like I reflect and, you know, what's gone on. I couldn't change. We actually got to the bottom of, actually, this is what's making you who you are. This is the drive to sort of, if you did probably dismiss mistakes and were not too bothered,

I'll be fine next week. That wouldn't make, I wouldn't make you who you are. And I could still never shake it off. I couldn't, but I almost, by speaking to him, it made me understand and accept that's what it was. So I still went through turmoil if I didn't play well,

if I made a mistake. I always wonder if that was like a by-product of being a local player. I always think, what would I have been like if I'd have played for Aston Villa or Tottenham? You know, I didn't know that many people. you know, it felt like you were playing for the club or the supporters or your family and friends, really. Did you ever feel anxiety in those moments, the feeling of anxiety?

So when something is plaguing you so much that you almost feel that kind of sense of nervous energy that keeps you up at night and you feel it in your stomach? No, it was never anxiety. I would say anger. And I want to put this right. It's like, I didn't even want to sleep. I want to get to training the next day. Did that come out in your home life?

Because it's hard not to take that home with you. Yeah, I think it will have done. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I remember something came up a year or two ago on Twitter about a group of players or a certain player or maybe a manager went out and had a meal or a few drinks after they'd lost.

And there was this big debate on Twitter. Well, why shouldn't they? You know what fans are like. They shouldn't go out. And there was this big debate on Twitter. Well, why shouldn't they, you know, some fans, you know what fans are like, they shouldn't go out. And there was this few big debates and I think Gary Lineker mentioned something that I've never not changed,

I've never changed my plans on the back of results. Okay, that sounds nice. I thought it was unbelievable. I would change plans every single week if that game didn't go well. So that's where it would have affected my home life.

So in terms of organising a night out, going for a meal with friends, wherever it may be, I couldn't have shown my face if we'd have lost and I played poorly. Not a chance. And I couldn't believe that some players could just carry on with their life. I'd be a bit like, oh, no. No. Because the feeling in your stomach is that bad.

You just, you don't even want to be, you don't want to be there. You don't want to be with people. You don't want to speak. You know, that's how much it got me. And I go back to that, you know, would it have been different at another club? I would never have wanted to play for another club.

But that is the one thing I do think about. Would it have results and performances affected me differently Do you come home after losing a game or something you've got your family there, your kids around Hey! I mean to be fair

my kids were quite young when I was still playing but there was one game I'd stand out when I couldn't get out of something, I was opening a restaurant I opened a restaurant. I opened a restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago called Caffey Sports England in Liverpool. And the two times we opened, those two games, I didn't play well. And in my head before the game, I'm thinking, I've got to play well in this game because people will think if I don't play well,

I've got my mind somewhere else. And I was probably too focused on the game in some ways. And then I had to go and almost open the restaurant and there was people there. And I remember the second one, it was like, no. I went, I was there 20 minutes. I was like, I've got to go. If I spoke to Nicola, which I might've done,

but I won't tell you before I ask the question, and I said, when Jamie loses a game, is he different? And what's he like? What would she have said to me? 100%, yeah. 100%. What would she have said, do you reckon? He's not there when I'm talking to him.

I think she'd probably say that. Maybe now at different times, but i'll be in a trance i'd just be sort of daydreaming people would be speaking to me and it's probably best just to leave me alone and not try and get my mind off it because i couldn't even if i if i did get my mind off it i know i'll go back to it And you're talking about going home. I always remember one time where I said I was in a trance. I was with the players. So I always remember we were playing a game against Everton,

which for me is the biggest game. I had a nightmare in the game. And we were going for a meal afterwards with the team, like an official, not a sort of few drinks it was to refuel basically this game was an early morning kick off we had a Champions League game on a Tuesday night

in Eindhoven we got beat 3-0 at Goodison and we've gone to the centre of Liverpool for a meal just to make sure we were eating the right food and I remember just

staring just couldn't stop I was just wasn't even eating just staring just couldn't stop I was just wasn't even eating just staring and next thing I get a text message Stevie Gerrard

he's just like he's there he's going don't worry about it it's gone finished forget about it you've got to try and

but I was just like he could just see everyone was devastated but for me I just I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else But I was just like, he could just see, everyone was devastated. But for me, I just, I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else because everyone's got their own ways of dealing with things. But I, yeah, it was a, yeah, it was, it's a huge part of my life, football. It always has been, always will be. I think I'll always be affected by football results that's when I was playing

as an Everton fan as a Liverpool fan right now football results will affect me It sounds painful it sounds like suffering doesn't it sound like fun? Well when you win I can assure you

I make sure I enjoy them I know afterwards I said before that it was relief but you had that moment of sort of joy the reason it was difficult to enjoy and why and probably you're different

to a Peter Crouch or certain players who came in as that I think they'd come in from clubs where they played once a week and if they played well it was like

I don't need to worry to that game I'm going to be off for two or three days whereas we'd have a game Tuesday Champions League or a cup game

and then I'd be right to enjoy that right bang we're back on it now it was almost like you're just on this train and nothing's getting in the way nothing's stopping but I can assure you it wasn't all doom and gloom I loved it and so many nights and times and experiences but

I do wish I was a little bit kinder to myself on the back of a poor performance or a defeat I mean there's what I keep thinking about one standing out. We won the FA Cup final in 2006. Personally, I had a great season. We kept 33 clean sheets, which was one away from a record, which was obviously a lot.

We played the cup final, I scored an own goal I didn't play well, Stevie Gerrard wins the final and we go on the open bus tour around Liverpool so I've had a great season but not had a great last game and my son's on the bus with me and I go on the top of the bus to start with but you're on the bus for maybe

three or four hours, within an hour I was downstairs, I was just sat there thinking it didn't go well I didn't do that you know I didn't do and I was thinking now when I look at it I'm embarrassed

I'm like what are you doing it was one game you've had an unbelievable season the team have we won the FA Cup we finished the season with a trophy

but I couldn't it was almost like I was up there acting because I didn't feel like celebrating but we'd won the Cup you know and just because I hadn't I'd made, but we'd won the cup. You know, and just because I hadn't,

I'd made a mistake, hadn't played particularly well. I know most players will be able to go, I've had a great season. It was only one game, we won. I found it tough. People that have that winner's mindset, they, as you kind of alluded to a second ago, they often struggle to understand

those that don't, to relate to them. And they often have a lot of friction with the people that don't have the winner's mindset because when you see the world in that way i saw it a lot in um michael jordan's documentary last dance was brilliant wasn't that yeah amazing i think i got a poster upstairs but after i watched it but um he had that mindset where he was you could see he would like pick on certain people who wouldn't meet him at his level did you ever find yourself and stevie doing that where if someone came into the dressing room and they and they weren't at that level you would you would either you'd force them out or you'd i

mean that's kind of what peter kraft was alluding to right that he was kind of saying that you two would be protecting the bar yeah i mean i think what happens is I think what Peter was trying to mention which I think was a little bit unfair the way he described it was that when a new player came in

I think me and Steve were fans we weren't just players we were fans it was like oh god I hope he's good you know like a fan

was out this new fella's good and when you come in after the first training session it'd be more than a joke oh god this doesn't look good does it you know what I mean that type of thing oh god I hope this goes well but I was And when you come in after the first training session, it'd be more than a joke. Oh, God, this doesn't look good, does it?

You know what I mean? That type of thing. Oh, God, I hope this goes well. But I was... Stevie... Stevie was different to me, and I was very vocal, very emotional. Stevie's maybe body language on the pitch at times would be questioned if, you know, he wasn't happy with somebody, he might turn away, you know?

Whereas I'd be remonstrating, screaming, shouting, you know he wasn't happy with somebody he might turn away you know whereas i'd be remonstrating screaming shouting you know and not in terms of someone hadn't played poorly but might have been more in terms of organization someone doing the job for the team where are you where you need to be i always felt like i was the coach of the team in some ways and because i played at centre back and i could you could see the whole team in front of me. Yeah, but we would be on top of people. But I wouldn't like that to come across in like a bullying way or we were trying to keep people down here. We loved Torres Alonso.

We loved being around great players because you wanted to win. That was all that mattered. It wasn't about securing your place or making sure I was protected in any way. It was that thing of like, it's Liverpool. The big clubs, it's not enough to play for them. And I know some people think,

I played for this club and it's on your CV and it's a great achievement to get to a Liverpool, a United, Chelsea, City. But it's not enough to play for them. You've got to win. The whole existence of those clubs is about winning. If they're not winning, there's no point. You know, so that was my thing.

My drive at Liverpool was to win every single day. When Gerard Houllier came in as a manager, it's Houllier, is it Houllier? Gerard, we'll just call him Gerard Houllier. When he arrived at Liverpool in, I think it was 1986 1998 1998 he came into the the club um the players took to him at first that I read because he one of the key decisions he made was around Paul Ince you see the players took to him yeah I'm no I think he found it difficult to start with really I think it was a big split in the camp in that the players would come before that

with Roy Evans and Gerard Houli came in. He was new to it. And yeah, I think it was tough for him in that first season. Did that turn at some point? Did he win the trust of the players? Yeah. I mean, yeah, Paul Ince, great fella.

I get on great with Paul Ince. Great player as well. Didn't have the career that Liverpool has had, maybe at other clubs. And I think Gerard Hulot just wanted to make a fresh start and he wanted to, I think most, a lot of managers do it, the take on, you know, the big guy, if you like. And he was certainly that.

He was, I think he was maybe England's captain or vice-captain at the time. But he wanted to completely revolutionise Liverpool and completely change it. And yeah, he had words with Paul Ince. And the thing was not about him having words as such, but also the fact that he didn't sort of back down. He really held his own.

He had a strong argument in the team meeting. And't sort of back down he really held his own he had a strong argument in the team meeting and you think wow he just stood up to probably one of the best midfield players of his generation What was that strong argument

in the team meeting? It was over Paulin's question what we were doing in training as senior pros do at times you know

we're trying to get it right why are we doing this why are we doing that and I think Gerard Hulier saw it as his opportunity to sort of stand with his authority. It was almost like, I would imagine, he was glad Paul Ince had said it and it was Paul Ince in some ways.

And I don't think the message was for Paul Ince because I think he was always going to get rid of Ince. I think the message was to the rest of us, you know, don't try and take me on. This is what we're going to do. Publicly in front of, in the team meeting, told Paul. Yeah, basically,

you wouldn't be at this club anymore, but he questioned his desire in a game. And to be fair, Paul Lynch was probably one of the bravest footballers you'd see. But in a particular game against Manchester United, we'd lost it 2-1

and we'd lost two goals in the last minute. And I think it was a very sore defeat for everyone so I think everyone was a little bit emotional about it and because Inter jumped up and said something he just went straight back

and said he wasn't happy that he'd come off he shouldn't have come off my captain should come off on a stretcher from Old Trafford and it was interesting with Gerard Hulier

in that we had him the first foreign manager and all of a sudden people would associate him with this flair football and be maybe a bit nice. But that was what the Liverpool team was before Gerard Hulier came. He completely went the other way and wanted big, big strong powerful players aggression

and that's why me and him had such a great relationship because i was such a competitor maybe didn't have the quality that some of the players had in the roy evans team if you like and some of the football they played was outstanding but he just wanted people who would die for that shirt because i i read that part of the reason why his reign as manager sort of came to an end was because he made some bad signings and he was, he didn't really inquire enough about the players that he was signing's character and their personality. And so, and I was just so compelled by that idea that that's one of the most important things when you're building teams is finding people that have the same like mentality and

character versus just great sort of technical players. I think about the same in business like i'm always considering how someone will um support our culture make our culture better raise the bar um in terms of like that mentality versus just being able to do fucking a thousand kickups or whatever loads of skills yeah i think you do need a certain mentality to play for liverpool what is that mentality? And the other big clubs. To be able to withstand pressure, criticism that comes your way. So often I saw a lot of Liverpool players who would start really well and it wouldn't make me think we've got a great player here. I'd always think, let's see a couple of months down the line

because I knew what was coming. Because every player goes through a few bad games, he gets criticism, whatever it may be. And I saw too many players never recover from that. And that tells me that for me, the top level football is mentality. Do you have that personality character to get you through those tough moments and come back and fight back and not give in? Can you teach that? I don't know. You tell me.

What do you think? I tend to believe that it comes from experience. I think resilience and that sort of character those character traits come from being knocked down loads of times so when the 10th failure or knockdown comes

or the 10th moment of hardship comes you're more equipped to deal with it so players that haven't been through the tougher you know challenges in their life

maybe in their personal life maybe where they come from don't have that Well I think Sestam we're doing this this afternoon and there's more of me somewhere in front of the operation in life, maybe where they come from, don't have that? Well, it's interesting. We're doing this this afternoon and this morning my son went in for a knee operation. Your son did? Yeah.

Right. So he's going for a knee operation. He's a professional footballer and apparently I haven't been able to probably sleep about it, thinking about it, you know, just want to do as much as you can, you know, to help them

because it's your son. But the thing I keep drumming home to him, and I keep saying it almost every day, we're not using this as an excuse. This is not going in the way. It's like, this happened, is it? Okay, bumpf, we're going again. It's like, this I know for a lot of people,

or players, or young players or wherever it may be would be a hurdle to come across and understandably so but it's not in years to come going to be oh i didn't quite do what i wanted because of that knee up yeah and this never happened and that it's like no there's there's going to be lots of things in his career as in my career obstacles obstacles in the way. You've got to get over them. You've got to get them out the way or you've got to deal with it and then keep going.

Nothing's, and that was always my mindset and that's what I'm trying to put into my son. I'm pretty confident he's got that mindset of nothing stops you, nothing gets in your way. You don't use anything as an excuse or a reason why something didn't happen. That no excuse mentality just you keep going nothing gets nothing no obstacles in the way you said earlier on that you might not

have cared as much as you did you might not have had that that same level of um sort of excruciating obsession and and care about the results and the outcome and winning if you'd been at another club and you were at another club which is england and you didn't seem to care as much. You said that. I was quite shocked to read that, that I remember the text message that said, fuck it, it's only England.

And generally you didn't seem to be as excruciatingly hard on yourself after losing for England as you did with losing for Liverpool. I think that was down to the fact that I didn't carry the same responsibility because I never really played. I was like a squad player, really. I wouldn't class myself as patriotic. Not at all.

I don't know what the... Can you be patriotic of your own city? Is that a word or is there something? I have no idea. I'm massively passionate about my own city and maybe that comes

from the way we're brought up in Liverpool you know the thing of you feel as if like a lot of the

country's against you and maybe that's some of it's true some people outside Liverpool think oh that's a chip on your shoulder but there is that sort of we sort of buy into that.

And that doesn't mean like I'm against England as such, but watching England now in the World Cup would never take me to a place emotionally the way it would if I saw Liverpool playing. It just wouldn't take me there. It's not like a conscious thing of, oh, I'm not going to be happy about this. It's just inside me.

And that wasn't just when I was playing for England. That was when I was a child. I'd be thinking, why aren't England picking the Everton players? You know, it almost felt like England was a team from down south or a London team. That's just the feeling I had. But I think if I would have become a mainstay of the England

team, I think I would have felt that. I think I would have got there. And that's me one disappointment in my football career. It's the only team in my life, from when I started at five years of age, I didn't dominate. I'm going to say dominate was be a

mainstay of the team, be one of the voices of the team, be one of the leaders, because I wasn't good enough. That's a simple fact. There's lots of players that you've encountered in your career that didn't reach their potential. You're talking about reaching your potential, doing your best, getting to the top of your potential a second ago. When you think about why those players didn't reach their potential, if you had to point out characteristics or behaviours that led them to miss their potential, what would those behaviours be? The traits of losers.

Hmm. I think blaming other people at different times for their own poor games, mistakes, always looking for excuses, I would say. I think I'm pretty honest and I was as a player and I always remember when I was a young lad

I had a bad game I keep talking about my bad games don't I you remember them more but a very famous coach who was a huge inspiration to me

was Ronnie Moran and I played a game and played poorly and I did an interview after the game saying it was a huge inspiration to me was Ronnie Moran and I played a game and played poorly and I did an interview after the game saying it was my fault those goals were my fault

and even though this was a coach who was a a real sort of man's man a legend of Liverpool football club he wasn't the coach then

he still used to come in and walk around the training ground and he said don't ever do that again he said you don't need to open yourself up like that he said be honest

within the dressing room and to your manager but he said you know what I mean sometimes you've got to be clever and look after yourself a little bit and you don't need to

be as honest you think you're doing the right thing and I think I knew exactly where he was coming from and I think at times you need to be as honest you think you're doing the right thing and i think i knew exactly where he was coming from i think at times you need to be honest but i think probably other times like that you maybe need to protect yourself a little bit but you never hide behind the fact that it was someone else's fault and again i keep going back to my son because i'm not a coach or a manager and people say to me you know could you give something back but i want you

want to give it back to my son. And things like that. Don't question the manager. Don't make excuses. Don't blame the manager. Or if you come in and say, oh, the coach or the trainer. Well, get something out of it. Don't be in the dressing room saying, oh, this isn't good or that isn't good.

On the point of questioning the manager, one of the things I read was that Gerard Houllier, Houllier, I can't say his bloody name. Houllier. Houllier, cool. One of the reasons why he was that Gerard Houlié, Houlié, I can't say his bloody name. Houlié. Houlié, cool. One of the reasons why he ultimately ended up leaving the club was because he started to lose his authority in the dressing room. Now, Peter Crouch said to me that great managers,

even when they don't know the right answers, pretend they do. Because they know that if they ever get to a point where the players know that they're not in control, then the authority's gone. And there was a story I read about gerard hooli a um picking a team and then going and asking gerard if it was the correct team and then gerard said it's not the correct team and changed it this happened in in spring in 2004 in in the run-up to a premier league match way to manchester united gerard hoolllier picked the team,

but then consulted with Gerard whether the selection was right, who said it wasn't right, and then Houllier changed it. I don't, I don't, it rings a bell. I don't know the specific game, if that was the right game, but I think towards the end of his time,

I think the results aren't going well. And managers, no matter who they are, they will lose confidence. And Stevie at that time was obviously a mega star and you're trying to maybe keep people on side, if you like. Not that I think the players were ever offside with Gerard Houllier,

but that confidence and belief in the manager starts to ebb away when results don't go well. I wouldn't say Gerard Houllier ever lost the dressing room in terms of how we felt about him as a man, but it was a time for it to come to an end. There's no doubt about that.

And it's an interesting one that does a manager lose the dressing room? Yes. He's always lost part of a dressing room because of the players who he's not picking. But I think it's when that belief goes really but for me

again I think I was different to other players because I never played for the manager ever I always played for the club and again because it was I always felt like I played for the club and the supporters and I'm not saying that to curry favour with the supporters as such but

no manager bought me you know I didn't know a manager or anything as such I mean Roy Evans gave me my debut I suppose and other managers played me but I never had that sort of feeling that

we need to win this for the manager. Rafa Benitez comes in next. What's the difference between Gerard Houllier and Rafa Benitez in terms of style? Because I find it so compelling that managers can be great for various different reasons. And we think of management as like a formula. But as I sit here with football players that have had seven, eight, nine managers, they all say that managers are completely different

in their style and approach Yeah Rafa was completely different Gerard Houllier was a manager I think Gerard Houllier was the type of guy who could he could manage an organisation didn't just have to be football

I think he could have been a bank manager he could have been a CEO if you like he have been a CEO, if you like. He organised people, get everyone focused on, you know, what do we want to achieve? But the actual day-to-day stuff of coaching,

I don't think it wasn't his forte. And it might sound strange. I don't think he had a huge knowledge of the game enough, but it wasn't someone who was going to say something to you in a coaching session or a tactical point that made you think oh never heard that before or that's a bit different it wasn't like that his thing was bringing people together for a common goal and and almost what i've described them to other people people say clive woodward the england rugby coach world cup

winning coach was probably similar in that now he he's had other coaches, but he's always been coming up with ideas to create sort of a siege mentality, a togetherness. Whereas Rafa was a coach. He was on that training pitch every day. And he was a lot colder than Gerard Julio. He was a lot more interested in the kids, the wife, you know, yourself.

You know, he'd ask me about my dad or different things like that. Whereas Gerard Julio, Rafa didn't want to get involved in anything that I think it was just football I mean if I think I was obsessed with football Rafa was just like he was probably above me so uh but it was different but it doesn't I mean I'll be honest with you when we describe managers like the one who come a couple after was Roy Hodgson and it didn't go particularly well but my point is

when a new manager comes in I want to get whatever I can from him so he may not work for Liverpool I may not like X but I might like Y and Z so you've always got to be a sponge and taking things in and learning things

and I think when Gerard Hulier came in I was a bit par player and then became a fully fledged member of

Liverpool's first 11 for the next five years and then Rafa came in and then again stepped up a level

to become the vice captain and one of the leaders in the team one of the best players in the team so I always think I got the most from these these other managers coming in you know who certainly jared huley i don't think would have ever heard of me maybe you know not too much

but i think it's important when people come into your life figures of authority you've got to basically squeeze everything out of them to your advantage and i think i did that with both managers let's do the biggest pro and con then so from what i of these individuals as managers so gerard julia you said he's a great sort of man manager ceo type that's probably from what i hear one of his greatest strengths his downside is maybe a lack of football knowledge is that what you i wouldn't say it was a downside because he had coaches around him who did the training sessions. It just, it got to its natural end.

Right. In that, you know, you shouldn't forget, I mean, he nearly lost his life managing Liverpool. And he's then making decisions. Is he in a fully, you know, football-focused state of mind? When he's actually recovering from almost losing his life. And we made a few signings that didn't work. And to be honest, that's always our ends for Liverpool managers

when it comes to the end. They have a summer where they buy a few players, they don't quite work out. And then the next manager has to come in because, you know, the energy and the excitement, not just from the squad, but also the supporters, just petering out. So Rafa's great tactically obsessed with football, obsessed with the excitement, not just from the squad, but also the supporters, just petering out. So Rafa's great tactically obsessed with football,

obsessed with the game, but his sort of downside was, if they're, I mean, everyone has a fucking downside. I have a downside as a manager and a CEO. Yeah, yeah. Is probably the man management stuff.

Yeah, but I don't think that stops us winning as such. Yeah, it's just a different approach. You know, nobody is everything. Yeah. Alex Ferguson is not a coach.

He's probably more like a Gerard Hulier type figure and his coach is there Rafa Benitez people will question his man management but I don't question it as such

and I don't question Gerard Hulier or other managers you've just got to do what's your strength that's your strength so what if Rafa Benitez's strength

is not the man management I'm putting this act on it's all about being obsessed with football and coaching every single day do what you're good at that's what i find interesting is there's so many ways to win because when i sat here with all the united players rio patrice gary they all say about sir alex ferguson they go man manager but only came in the training room dressing ground twice in 26 years or whatever and i and then you hear about these other people like rafa who also tremendously successful,

won the biggest trophies you could possibly win, but wasn't that way inclined. History is written by the winner. It doesn't matter what you do. So if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at Man United, those same players will be saying to you, he's never at the training ground. He's never there.

We don't do tactical work. He doesn't do any coaching. It's all about winning. And to be be honest what you're saying there is interesting because one time i remember rafa benitez he knew someone at united and he said ferguson doesn't even coach because in rafa's mind you've got to be to be a top man you're a coach you know i think when him and marino came along they were coaches. I probably couldn't get their heads around the way Alex Ferguson was. And it was almost, it was almost a little bit dismissive.

And it wasn't like I was trying to defend the Manchester United manager. It was just that training. Even Ferguson doesn't even do the coaching. I said, so what? It's like, it doesn't matter. He wins. There's different ways of winning.

And that's my thing on TV now. There's no right or wrong way to play football. It's being the best you can be at what you do and that and if that for Rafa Benitez is being on that training ground coaching not getting involved in stuff away from the pitch well that's someone else's job you know no one is perfect at anything Alex Ferguson wasn't a great coach so he brought in great coaches I think that's really important, not just in football management. I actually think in life, in that, for me,

I'm a little bit wary of getting involved in things where I think that's not my area of expertise. I think I'd be a little bit arrogant of myself to think I could just parachute myself in there and, you know, start running the show or get right involved in it. So I think we all got to know

where our strengths are and all got to know where we need help because we all need help that's what richard branson taught me um you know reading through his story but also getting to speak to him on this podcast this is a guy who didn't know what the difference between net profit and gross profit until i think he was 50 which is the one of the key principle like understandings of running a business dyslexic can't look at presentations if you try and show him words on a slide deck he won't look at it he'll only look at pictures he's got so many deficiencies in areas that you think are critical to business but the one thing that everyone says he says and everyone around him says was because of all of

his deficiencies he made up for it by being the best delegator in the world so he found people that could plug all of these gaps and gave them huge responsibility. And you think, you know, by the age of, at the same time when he doesn't know the difference between net profit and gross profit, he's running 50 different companies. Virgin is now 400 different companies. And you go, how is someone who's, in his own words, like not good at business, doing that. Well, just a supreme delegator. And Sir Alex Ferguson, the same bad coach, but had,

can't remember his name, that guy that did it. Carlos Quiroz, Steve McLean, lots of different ones, didn't he? But I think what you're saying is really good because the career I've had has afforded me so many opportunities.

I'm so fortunate that I meet, I'm speaking to you you know you're speaking to other people who are experts in their field but when you speak to them and that story about richard branson is perfect in that if you don't know them and you know say my family and friends sometimes they're fascinated by some of the people i meet and i said i'm lucky to be in certain situations and they look at these people like they're they're fascinated by some of the people I meet and I said I'm lucky to be in certain situations and they look at these people like they're extraordinary

and when you've got a sort of relationship with someone whether it's someone I work on TV with they're just normal people and they've got the same sort of insecurities that you've got but they've got something about them where they've got sort of

maybe it's an opportunity that's arisen they've grabbed it with both hands they've got something about them where they've got sort of, maybe it's an opportunity that's arisen. They've grabbed it with both hands. They've an enthusiasm. Something about them has put them in that position. But they're not extraordinary people. They've got an extraordinary talent for that, you know, which finds themselves, I feel it, in that field. So that thing where people are so impressed with someone

or think they're going to give them these words that they've never heard of before. I think the older I get now, I realise that a lot of people in great positions, it's not because there's some genius. Sometimes, as I said, it's opportunity. They've seen a niche in the market, wherever it may be,

they've just gone out there and grabbed it. You know, there's a real trap I've noticed based on exactly what you've said where someone's successful so what we do is we assume that they get everything right and so with richard branson because he's a super successful entrepreneur we assume that he's the best at marketing branding finance all of these things and i noticed this a lot when i was in san francisco and we were it was when snapchat the app had blown up and we were building a chat app. And what you'd see the team doing was whenever we were trying to make a decision, the team were going, well, what does Snapchat do? Because Snapchat was successful, we assumed that their marketing strategy, every feature they had, everything they did with the login form, we assumed everything

they did was right. And I came to, I came to sort of see that bias in myself. And it's exactly what you've described. If we see someone who is at the top of the game, we assume that they are God-like in everything. And that's what you do with Richard Branson. He's the best speaker in the world. You assume he's the best salesman. No, in reality, from what I've learned from doing this, and honestly, looking at my own life, because I'm not actually good at business. Like I'm not good at the business stuff I'm not good at like finance operations processes but I'm good at this one thing and that's what I learned from Richard is Richard's good at this one thing he's like good I'd say he's good at the branding piece but he's just an unbelievable

delegator um so that's yeah I mean that's that's what I got from all of that but it's it's funny having this conversation in the wake of Richard Branson because he's the best example of that. Obviously, one of the defining moments, I think in football generally, not just as a Liverpool player or a Liverpool fan, was that final away at Istanbul. You go in at half time.

I think it's 2005 final. You go in 3-0 down. When you go down that tunnel at 3-0 down honestly do you think you can turn that game around no

no no not at all no what are you thinking when you walk through the tunnel then it's going to be 6-0

is that what you're thinking how can we stop it being 6-0 I think if you lose a game 3-0

it happens if if you lose five or six and it's remembered and that was my fear that was fear what happened in the dressing room what did Rafa say

not a lot he wasn't a motivator he was a tactician and he made changes in there system wise strategically to change it

but if I'm being honest I think he changed the changes he made was not to win the game I think the changes he made was to stop him changes in there system-wise, strategically to change it. But if I'm being honest, I think the changes he made was not to win the game. I think the changes he made was to stop it from coming 5-6-0. Because we actually brought on a defensive midfield player,

Didier Mann. We went to, you can call it three at the back, but it can be five at the back, if you like, rather than playing four. Don't get me wrong, the changes helped us go on and get the goals,

but I think initially, we need to stop what AC Milan are doing, otherwise this is going to be a massacre. Why did the game turn around? I think the changes Rafa made, a little bit of luck,

and Steven Gerrard. He scores the header 54 minutes or something, and then within a couple of more minutes, you're 3-3. That's the little bit of luck you need. You score so quickly right after. That happens in some games.

And we did get a little bit of luck. I think the linesman actually flagged for an offside. The referee didn't see it. And he carried on playing for 30 seconds. So the linesman puts his flag down. And that's in the run-up to us getting our second goal. So we scored the second goal. And then, do you know what you can describe it?

It's just, you know when you're on a football pitch. You smell it. 3-2. We knew it was going to, I knew it was going to be 3-3. Everybody knew it was going to be 3-3. You just... What is that? I don't know.

You just... The reason I know is because when we score 3-2 no one celebrates with the goal scorer everyone just runs back he started celebrating he started celebrating

but it's he was going crazy I remember thinking you shouldn't do that yeah but everyone's back it's like everyone's in oof

in a zone and you don't need to speak to other people sometimes there's moments in games you just you can smell it you can feel it

something's happening Is that a culture thing as well because there's certain clubs who have that when they go 2-0 down 3-0 down no everyone goes

oh they're gonna do it they're gonna come back and there's that mentality where you go yeah we're not safe here they're coming for us I think Liverpool and Man United have got it

City seem to have it now City yeah certainly in the last couple of years under Pep Guardiola I've always felt Chelsea have had that in the last 10 years or so

even when they weren't at the best they'd still find a way to win and yeah I know our club's got that and we'll always have that

you just it just you feel like something's going to happen Why has Liverpool done so well in the Champions League? I think a lot of that And we'll always have that. You just, it just, you feel like something's going to happen. Why has Liverpool done so well in the Champions League? I think a lot of that is emotion. Belief.

Winning those finals as well. Yeah, winning finals, the history that's gone before. The Anfield crowd believe it. The opposition coming to Anfield believe that something's going to happen special. This is a mythical football ground. Do you believe they're the best fans in the Premier League? I wouldn't say that and the reason I wouldn't

say that is because everybody thinks they're the best fans and I think if I do say that I won't be turning on my Twitter notifications in a few days

after this podcast comes out but no I would say yes but every set of supporters what they do to follow their team home and away

I think Anfield's special I don't think anyone could deny that that