The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Jesse Lingard Reveals The Dark Reality Of Being A World Class Football Player

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

What do you think of when you hear ‘the footballer lifestyle’? Do you picture multi-million pound contracts, sports cars and celebrity-filled parties? What you probably don’t imagine is unbearable pressure, horrendous abuse or a job that takes you away from your friends and family. These are just a few of the struggles that Jesse Lingard has had to overcome before even stepping onto the pitch to represent England or Nottingham Forest. Being able to perform at the highest level has meant that Jesse has had to dig deep within himself to find a way to win. In this raw conversation, Jesse Lingard shows the sides of himself usually hidden from the cameras, discussing everything from his tumultuous family life, mental health battles and club politics. If you want to discover the real Jesse Lingard this is the episode for you. Jesse: Twitter - bit.ly/3XKkSN7  Instagram - bit.ly/3XnIFm0 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue what was going through my head at that time i do not know i was drinking just trying to take the pain away. It's tough, man. With a club like Man United, obviously it's all big. They can have that control over you. People have a voice. Jesse, he asked if we could give him a couple of days off. When things are getting said about you, that's not true.

You've got to voice your opinion. I knew I needed to leave. Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked? You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. So this is the whole thing, what happened? Is there a day that you look back on and you go that was the hardest day? Jesse you're shit!

You're a bitch! F*** bro! Getting that much abuse and I'm already down enough and I've got to perform. I was still trying to be Jesse like hey

banter jokes and that but of course it's going to affect me. He's not done much at all this season. I'm already going through things we don't know about and I feel like I've got the world on my shoulders. In 2019 your mother was admitted to me. He's not done much at all this season. I'm already going through things we don't know about.

I feel like I've got the world on my shoulders. In 2019, your mother was admitted to hospital. She couldn't really cope anymore. Did you ever figure out

what the root cause of your mother's depression was? I think as soon as she had me, to be honest. Jesse give me your context what is the take me right back to when you were in those early years as you signed and joined Manchester United I think at at seven years old. What was life like? If I'd been in your home, if I'd been in your surroundings,

in your environment, what was life like? Life was good. Obviously, mum and dad split up at an early age, especially when I was born, which can make things a lot difficult. But I still had the desire, the hunger to go in training my grandma

took me in training you know week in week out you know I had trials at Everton, City, Liverpool so my grandma was driving up and down the motorway constantly um you know to to support me and and take me to training and games and And then I obviously made the decision to sign for United at nine years old. You know, we had a great team, you know, likes of Pogba, Ravel in the team. So we had a great team. And I think outside of that,

obviously my mum was very supportive. My dad was very supportive. He was, you know, a football mad. You know, so I think that support system system especially at an early age is important did did everybody in your circle around you have high hopes for your for your career when you were that age about 10 12 13 did they think you were going to be a professional football player I think my granddad did your granddad did yeah he I mean was on the ash turf pretty much every day, practising skills, learning new things. And he had the belief that I'd be a footballer.

And if it wasn't for him, then I wouldn't be in the situation that I'm in because he took time out of his day to take me on the Ash Turf, practice. My brother would come down, my dad would come down. We'd play one-touch, two-touch football pretty much on a regular basis. That's my happy place. That's where I'm most happy, on a football pitch.

Like I say, my granddad was very important, putting me into Liverpool, into City, into United on trials because people recognised their talent, but he was there to push me. I was watching the documentary and I saw a granddad who looked... It's rare to see. I mean, one might expect a dad or a mother to be that pushy and direct and critical,

but to see a grandad being that savage with you at times was quite surprising can you give me a for anybody that hasn't seen it can you give me a flavour of how how tough

he was at times well he got he got banned a couple of times like when I say we're 12 years old we're playing Stoke away and he's come on the pitch after the game and said you're not fit to wear the shirt

your grandad's about you he said you're not fit to wear the shirt none of you are fit to wear the shirt blah blah I'm thinking like the coach is looking at me I'm like I can't do nothing he had me on weights at 10 years old

like lifting weights went into Man United and said to one of the coaches Tony Whelan at the time he said like you know i'm getting my grandson into because it obviously is a it was a power lifter for great britain right so you know he wanted me on the weights at an early early age to try and build a bit of muscle because you know i was always small he kind of drove that from you know being a power lifter you know for great britain kind of passed it down to me.

Mum was a gymnast, so it was kind of tough on her as well. Mum took it the wrong way, because obviously she wanted to be a gymnast, but her grandma was so hard on her that, you know, eventually she, you know, she quit on that. But even with me, you know, some games I'd, you know, not play the best and, you know, you're getting the car on the way with me you know some games i'd you know not play the best and you know you're getting the car on the way home you know i'd say like look oh my toe was sore today like

just trying to make excuses because he's so like hard on me but he was trying to push like it come from a good place i'm saying so the reason why your mother quit gymnastics was because he was so hard on her yeah it, it was so tough on her. And obviously she didn't have really the motivation to carry on. Probably she weren't strong enough to carry on that. But, you know, for me, I always knew I wanted to be a footballer. So, you know, having, you know, my granddad, you know, my dad, my mum around me at the time, you know, trying to push me. And it was difficult even at earlier stages because you know

i was living out of mum's couple of days and my granddad's a couple of days and he's only down the road it's like literally five minutes but you know like i say my mum couldn't really cope with me at the time um you know so i was back and forth from my nan and granddad's a lot and then like i say like i say driving up and down the motorway, Liverpool, straight back to Manchester. I would train at Liverpool for one day, have a game for United the next day. So, you know, it put the adage in, you know, to get me where I wanted to be today.

You said that your mother couldn't really cope with you at the time. What do you mean by that? It's depression. She'd be in bed all day. Most days, you know, I'd go in, ask for money for the ice cream. Like, still be in bed. So, me, I was happy-go-lucky. I'm bubbly, I was going to play football with my friends.

And you don't understand you know the situation that you know your mother's in at the time was so young so i didn't really understand what was going on um until obviously it got got brought to light you know maybe probably say i'm saying about 16 17 you can kind kind of understand what she's going through and things like that. But she'll never talk about it. She'll always bottle it up. So your mother was suffering from depression

even when you were very, very young. Yeah. But at that time you just didn't realise what it was. No, didn't know what it was. Did she know what it was? I think she knew, yeah. But she would never... At the time we didn't have really a support system to support her.

She didn't have really people around her that she could go to. Like, she can go to my PA now and go to the doctors and she would sort all that out. But at that time, obviously, I think she knew what it was, but she couldn't really cope with it. She couldn't really... She never had to deal with certain things. And, you know, for me,

I'm just a kid, so I want to play out, have fun, play football. But for her, she just wanted to go be in bed, like, all day. She would, she could drop me off at school,

well, she could drop me off at school at eight o'clock in the morning and then sleep until three o'clock until she picks me up. That's how bad it was. Like, really going for it so she'd sleep all night wake up to drop you to school and then go back to bed yeah she's sleeping in the daytime pick me up from school probably go back to bed again just laying in bed like curtain shot dark room everything and then obviously you know bath me whatever go um before i go to bed and just sleep all night over the last 10 years or so people have become more aware of what like depression and mental

health is and this is kind of why i ask if your mother knew what it was because like 10 years ago if i'm being completely honest there was a real stigma around mental health it was kind of seen as someone just kind of being a bit crazy and over the last 10 years thankfully we've gotten to a point where we have a better understanding that we have physical and mental health and this is why i say like did your mother know what it was did she just think she was just sad or she didn't have motivation or did she know she was depressed yeah i think it was a probably the motivation part i just couldn't get out of bed she couldn't motivate herself to get out of bed

even when they woke up it was dying for her to be there and I think she came for the quarter finals and that just made me so happy because in her situation

you know not getting out of bed not having the motivation but she found that motivation to come and see her son play at World Cup. That was, like, I told her, like, I was really proud of her. Like, it's brave what he did.

Because, you know, every day in bed, depressed, no motivation. And just to find that little bit of motivation just to come and see, you know, her son at the World Cup. And don't forget, she's got, you know, I've got my little sister and little brother at the World Cup and don't forget she's got you know I've got my little sister and little brother as well

so you know she's got to deal with them as well which is always tough but like I say to find that motivation

to come and see me at the World Cup was important for me especially because I wanted her there anyway regardless

and I didn't even know she was coming until I was in the line-up singing National Anthem. I seen her. You seen her in your dream? Yeah, really. And it just gave me goosebumps straight away.

I was so emotional after that. And I wanted to perform at the highest level and win the game just for her. I think there's a video on my Instagram of me hugging her for like two, three minutes. I've seen it. And it's just the same things that i can that can make you happier you know as a person but just to be there and get up and get

changed and get dressed and have that motivation to see a son so now i woke up that's what made me happy this is a bit of a difficult question because it's not always obvious but did you did you ever figure out where or what the root cause of your mother's depression was um not really no i think i think as soon as she had me to be honest i think it was just difficult for her to to handle having a child um like i say, my nan and grandad, you know, took over most of the time, but, you know, she was still there, she was still a mother, but it was just hard for her to deal with it.

And, you know, we had certain instances where, you know, we'd be in bed and she'd be, like, trying to stretch my legs and that. I'm like, what's going on? What's happening? I didn't know what was going on i didn't know she had depression at the time i was such i was such a young age um but for her it was just normal like normal for her and she's like you know stretching my legs like you got training tomorrow

and i'm like what's going on like i didn't realize what was going on so she had them like phases where you know she'd do some extraordinary stuff. Stretching your legs, I'm confused. Yeah, just stretching my groins out before we went to sleep. It was strange for me because I knew I'd train the next day, but for her that was probably natural and normal.

Do you know what I mean? It still don't still don't resonate with me today i'm probably gonna resonate with her today of what was going through her head at the time like especially when i was born like could she handle that situation of having a kid so you're saying basically before you would go to sleep she was stretching your legs in a way that didn't make sense like as in yeah i was like i just want to go to sleep like why well i would never question like i'm never questioning but she would just do like extraordinary stuff and this lasted this has lasted up until today since as young as you can

remember till till today yeah and i think she'll she'll think she'll still always have depression, but she can cope with it now, she can handle it, because, like I say, we've got the right support system around. But still, it's... Like I say, I've got my little brother and sister, who she looks after, and you know what? She's come on... My mum's come on leaps and bounds, to be honest.

Especially from... Like, even the documentary. She was nervous to do that like she was crying in the car like the director spoke to her and said you're going to be involved in it she's crying like didn't know if she's caught with it but you know she found the courage found the motivation you know to do it and that's still a big thing even though she's going through what she's going through but like i say we can we can handle you know certain situations now emotions you said about bottling up your emotions and generally you know i think men in particular

have a real problem with kind of expressing their emotions for various reasons because you know we're macho and masculine and whatever else but um did you learn at a young age at all how to express your emotions did you see did you have models in your life where people were emotionally expressive no only with only with my mum and my nan and granddad i would always say love you like how are you you okay but like that side like not not much like rarely hug more of a you know fist bump but you know sometimes you gotta see that that loving side especially from you know her father and you know me becoming a father as well that's all i want to do with with hope you know tell her you know express you know that emotion to her um So I mainly got it from, like, my mum's side,

grandad, nan, mainly. Like I say, I think my dad's come to a realisation where, you know, we've seen a documentary and, you know, he's thought, what's the point in, you know, it's a short life, what's the point in arguing all the time? Because my mum and dad have never seen eye to eye, so I can understand from my mum's perspective where she doesn't want to see him,

but my dad's come to a realisation where it's like, look, let's get together, let's have a coffee, let's sit down, documentary really, walk him up and realise life's too short to... Because it'll be coming games and my mum, he'd be asking like, is your mum in the box?

Like, who's in the box? Like, who's in the box? And I'm like, my mum. I'll sit in the stands then. And I know it shouldn't be like that, but, you know, that's how it is. But he wants that,

you know, togetherness again, but I can never see my mom doing it i can never see a mom giving him time of day to be honest has your mom been able to find a new partner since she picks yeah she picks um not the best people to be honest. She puts a lot on us. But she kind of thrives off that for some reason. Like, the bad boys and, you know, the situation that we're in. You know, you can't be going out with these guys and doing what you're doing with these guys because, you know, it comes back to me.

We've had a lot of drama with most of them to be honest and the last guy hung himself which was it was deep but it you know what and I said so like like one minute

he'll be giving her the world and then next he'll be like who you with like who you texting blah blah and I'm speaking

I'm like mum these guys are not good for you man like they're not good for you but somehow somehow she

thrives off them situations and gets a buzz off it and becomes happy so i was in a situation where it's like do you want me to be happy and being with these guys or you know bring her back down to earth so it's a difficult situation but like i say yeah the guy you know hung himself in it in the end um and then i think after that my mum realized um you know she can't be you know dating these people it's difficult i completely relate to i can completely understand not that I've had that lived experience but I can understand what you're saying with this conflict of I want her to be with someone but if it's a bad option would I rather her just be alone and then you know I was thinking as you're saying that about many of my friends who've been going through difficult situations

with their mental health and what ends up happening because there might be a gap somewhere or something missing or something not quite stable with you you end up attracting someone like a mirror who is also a little bit unstable who isn't in the best place and you kind of are toxic together in a way and often i think with some of my friends it's like you just need to work on yourself first before you yeah you try and find someone who, you know, because a lot of the time we end up trying to look for someone that will fix us. Yeah. Which is never a good thing.

I think that's what she did. She wanted someone to, because, you know, she's got friends, but she doesn't go out with her friends and, you know, be social. So I feel like her having and you know be social so i feel like her having you know someone there you know she could go to his house she could do things with him she could be happy but on the other side it's like like they're not good for you though like they bring they kind of bring you down in a way manipulators and manipulating

and they're well aware of you weaknesses. She'd believe it. Right. She'd believe, like... Like, we'd... I don't know. We'd go, probably... We'd go somewhere, like, me, my mum, Daisy, and maybe Travis and something like that. And the guy would be texting, like,

where are you? Like, what are you doing? Who are you with? What's with the family? No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not. And it's like...

I don't know. My mum's, like, dealing with this, and I'm like, how can you deal with that? I'm thinking, how can you deal with this? I'm like, it's like, I don't know, my mum's like dealing with this and I'm like, how can you deal with that? I'm thinking, how can you deal with this? I'm like, it's blocking. But she just like, she loves the attention. She loves it. Narcissists target people like that, that they can control in such a way, be coercive and manipulate and sort of take advantage of their self-esteem and stuff. That's what narcissists do. Because an individual like that, a narcissist like that, would never be successful in coercion and manipulation

of someone who would go, what the fuck are you texting me when I'm with my friend? The fuck do you think you are? They wouldn't survive there. So they find their way to people who they can... Easy targets. Yeah, exactly. Mom's an easy target.

And it's difficult she'll never back down if I say like look Leitch leave him she'll be like yeah yeah I'll block him

block him she'll unblock him the next day it's tough man it's difficult it's hard it's difficult love's a

difficult difficult thing off you go into Manchester United when did you when did you when did you get in your view your first real break

in Manchester probably when Jose come in really yeah I mean not under Saff Sir Alex Ferguson

Sir Alex said I'll make it when I'm 23 when I'm 23, 34 so you know I always believed in him. He always believed in me. I think when Damien Moyes come in,

I weren't ready to play first team football yet. And then I think, especially under Van Gaal, you know, it gave me the confidence to play. But still, it was difficult because you know I was at a stage where I played the first game on the vanguard did my knee six months out January came went on loan to Derby and then the season after that was when it was like kind of make or break so I left it till October time and if I weren't playing then then I knew I needed to leave and then he played me at CSK Moscow where he chumps league like starting I was like what okay freezing cold

minus five whatever it was Rooney was like don't wear gloves I was like what he was like don't wear gloves

I was like okay don't wear gloves played well and after that stayed in the team so it was kind of a that was kind of a make or break time

for me why is that comment don't wear gloves, significant to you? Because, you know, especially at United, we're brought up, got to wear black boots, no gloves, no long bottoms in training. Just the basic things, we're brought up with that. So when you go into the first team, of course in the warm-up, you know, I'm going to wear gloves.

But for the game, you know, back to basics, how we grew up, don't wear gloves in the game. It's about values, right? It's values. You know, it's moral. It's the way you've been brought up. You know, United put that into us at an early age. A lot of that comes from Sir Alex Ferguson, right?

I'm super, you know know I've sat here with a bunch of ex Sir Alex Ferguson players Rio, Gary, Patrice how would you describe the the culture at Manchester United

during that Sir Alex Ferguson period what was the culture like it was good yeah always banter Rio Scorsese

Giggs you know always banter even tour um you know it's good to go on tour with them and you know i think you know rio being real always was there for advice always there to speak to um you know on a regular basis like most of them schools are the same um were they honest and critical as well though? Were they tough? Some of those senior lads? Yeah because they're winners and you know

they've been there and done that and you know they've won trophies before and you know it was unfortunate that I weren't in you know

any of the teams that you know won the Prem or Champs League but you know even on tour it was you know

you still win games and you know going on tour with was you know you still win games and you know going on tour with them especially with you know Sir Alex was you know an amazing feeling

I remember being on the bench me and Pogba got called up for to be on the bench against Newcastle you know not knowing if I'm going to play or not but still just to be there

and see how you know they are in the changing room and you know see that winning mentality and I think being at United is all you know it's it's been instilling you and see how they are in a changing room and see that winning mentality. I think being at United,

it's been instilled in you from a young age that winning's important. Don't matter how you win, just win. And I think they've been so successful over the years, winning trophies, just by having that winning mentality. So Alex Ferguson leaves. Now it's funny because I'm a Manchester United fan,

I'm a big fan and I've had season tickets over the years and go to most of the games at home still today. And from what I've heard, it went from being like a family to being run by Ed Woodward and it feeling less like a family. Like one of the comments, one of the waitresses said to me was,

you know, when Sir Alex Ferguson and David Gill were here, they would come in here and like chat to us and they knew all of our names, every single one of our names. And then when Sir Alex Ferguson left, one of them said to me, they don't speak to us anymore. It's different.

Sir Alex was like man to man like when we're training with the first team he'd bring us 16, 17 training with the first team

like he'd give you that confidence know your names know all like from probably under 10s to the first team know everyone's name

he'd take his time out to understand you as a person understand you as family like I say to the first team know everyone's name you take this time out to understand you as a person understand your family like I say you know things change you know

but with him you know it was good that you know he could understand the family side get to know your family a bit more

you know understand you as a person you know see your progression like I say he said 23, 34 you being the first team you know, understand you as a person, you know, see your progression. Like you said, 23, 34, you'd be in the first team. You know, to hear that, you know, you can kind of get a big ego,

but, you know, for me, it was, nothing's guaranteed anyway. So I'm just going to work my ass off 10 times, you know, more, you know, to be in that first team. Rio said to me that when his granddad was ill, Sir Alex Ferguson not only knew, but he knew what Rio's granddad's favourite whiskey was, flowers were, and he sent it to the hospital bed before anybody else.

He got it there. So Rio said to me, whenever I've asked the senior players why Saff was so good, they all said, they would all just, before you even get the words out, they'd say, man management. That's what you said there as well. And I think even this day and age now, I feel like it's important, even with Jose.

Jose used to FaceTime me randomly. A couple of times, he'd be driving and he'd be FaceTiming me. I'd be like, where are you, kid? Just driving home from Selfridges. Where's Marcus? I don't know, I think he's at home. Okay, enjoy. Just little things like that

little calls here and there even you know Steve Cooper not going to ring me just have conversations wanting to understand you a little bit more I feel like it's so

I feel like it's so important why because it shows that they care it shows and when they care you care back yeah that's how care works

yeah I would understand you a little bit more than you know as a person not just as a manager as a person

like how you operate not in football I want to know you outside of football as well same with the lads

I want to know you outside of football I want to get to know your families and I think where I learnt that from was England, with Gareth Southgate. Man of management, top.

Got to the 2018 World Cup, got to the rooms, see a picture of me and my mum, see a picture of me and Marcus. It's like we're home so when you got to your room at camp yeah in the hotel

like I felt like it was at home he really has got the best out of England in my in my lifetime in the 30 odd years that I've lived

I've never seen an England side that looks so happy and cohesive and honestly ego free and then it's showing in the tournaments

we're playing we have hope like I was out in Qatar and I was in the stadium for the England France game and

even though we lost I walked away happy because we're playing great and we're challenging what's he done in your view to that England side to create that atmosphere

and that culture? I just think he understands you know us as players I think when he first came in he was the first person to give me a debut for England I played with him on the 21s

you know understood his values and the way he did things and then you know coming into you know the senior team, you know, giving my debut. What are his values, in your view? I mean, he cares about the players a lot.

And, like I say, he wants to understand, you know, the player. You know, so for me, you know, being with him on the 21 level and obviously being with him at a senior team you know there's trust already there anyway but you know it takes a lot

to trust a person and you know for someone new coming into the team you know he still understands the person and like I say he wants that trust

and the trust back and you know he can speak to me about anything not just football he can speak to me about anything and you know he'll understand

and ask about how's your mum how's your dad how's everyone those little things go a long way and I think you know the man

management side of it is very important especially tournaments anyway but you know the group as a collective you know, the management side of it is very important, especially tournaments anyway. But, you know, the group as a collective, you know, understand his values and the way he does things. You know, so people new coming to the camp, you know, it's easy selling straight away because it'll pull you straight away

and like speak to you and sit you down and, you know, talk, just talk. And that's it. And I think it's so important sit you down and you know talk just talk and that's it and I think it's so important what's his you know a lot of managers are known for you know

Sir Alex Ferguson's one of the trademarks of his style is the hairdryer I know that's kind of like overgassed by the media and stuff because you hear what

a caring man he was but when you think about Southgate's style compared to these other managers you've had like Van Gaal and Mourinho and All and moise etc what's his style south gates it's different but it's still got the the hair dryer in and all really yeah surprises me yeah and it surprises a lot of people but you need that though because you don't want a manager who's, you know, nice and lets you,

you know, get away with a lot of things here and there. Like, he's on it. Like, it'll tell you if you're in the wrong or not. It doesn't matter what,

what player you are, who you are, it'll tell you if you're in the wrong or not. But, you know, on the other hand, he still, he still wants to create that

good vibe, you know, with a team and, you you know he'll shout when you know it's needed but most of the time it's just you know simple you can speak to him you know speak to the group um you know simple words you know enjoy the game you know we've been here before go out go out win the game you know have fun do the tactics all in the week but

you know to have someone like that you know who's a good guy as well I think you know it goes a long way especially

you know with the England team Why did Manchester United not reach the levels on the pitch during that era? Because when I look at the players that we had

I mean fucking hell we signed some unbelievable players like it's not people often criticize the glazers for lots of reasons but when you think about the money spent on players on the pitch we spent the money yeah it's like almost a billion i think it's almost a billion billion billion we spent in players in that period yet we couldn't we couldn't seem to win we couldn't seem to get that cohesion right through that sort of Van Gaal Mourinho era and even the David Moyes era

what's your assessment on why that is like why wasn't it I just think it didn't click of course it wouldn't you know when Van Gaal won the FA Cup

Mourinho Europa League Carabao Cup but these these world class players that come into United and I'll be honest they're looking average

so they would come from a club where they were banging and me and my friends we celebrate in our Manchester United chat we're like here we go lads every year

and then it's like they've become half the player it's strange because a lot of players have come in and failed like I say

you know Alex in training top like this Sanchez quality training quality

when it comes to a game it's didn't clip for some reason not at all is it pressure you know when I was playing especially with Rom

and you know with Alexis we just wanted to enjoy football and of course it's going to be hard to win a Prem when City have been so dominant for many years. But even to win Europa League, Carabao Cup, Community Shield,

we're winning trophies. But I think when Jose left and the trophy stopped, it's difficult. Another new manager. It's kind of like you have to, like, kind of prove yourself over and over again. It's kind of like, you know, false, like, fake promises, really.

I think that's the heart of it. Yeah, like, you know, you get, are you doing well? Are you doing well? Like, you know, you're playing well like you know you're playing this game don't end up playing during the time under solshai yeah because i played at first and then box office when when all first came in you know unbelievable you were balling out of control that's what i'm saying yeah and then i said to him before the season, you know, if I don't play X amount of games before December,

then will you let me go on loan in January? He said, yeah. So didn't play. And January come, West Ham came in. And still people was, you know, debating, you know, is he fit enough? Is he ready to go into a team like that and start straight away?

That nearly didn't happen, did it? It was off and on and off and on. Honestly. I was literally with my brother, with a team like that and start straight away. That nearly didn't happen, did it? It was off and on and off and on. Honestly, I was literally with my brother watching Sky Sports News. Dave Moyes on the phone. I'm like,

yeah, I'm coming. I'm there. Like, you want me there? I'm there. Edward rings. No,

you're not going there. It's off. It's done. Just crying. I was crying. Me and my brother were just crying. All I had to do was play football crying I was crying me and brother were just crying all I was about to do was play football

that's all all right it's back on now I was about to do is play football let me just go and play football please

as soon as I got there hit the ground running it's probably one of my best seasons to be honest like I think nine goals five assists

in from like February to May of our best seasons to be honest like I think nine goals five assists in from like February to May I still didn't go Euros after that and that was my main aim to go Euros

How did that feel when you found out that you weren't going after having probably arguably your best ever year in football

before at West Ham when you were you know widely considered to be the most informed player in the league how did it feel?

It was heartbroken because you know growing up I was what I do represent my country and play for England and

to not play the first half of the season, then to go to West Ham and the fun that was in there. I could have easily took it into the Oroes, but it didn't pick me. And like I say, I wasn't strong enough to probably say why I'm not picked.

Would that have helped? Probably, yeah. Do you think? To Would that have helped? Probably, yeah. Do you think? To get a reason out of it, yeah. It wouldn't have got you in the team, but it would have helped you. Yeah, like, what could I have done to get into the team? Yeah. Should I have scored 10, 11, 12 goals?

I don't know. Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked? You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. I don't know because... I can see that smirk. You do. I don't know because...

I'm just thinking, off form, how can I not be picked? Do you think it could be something else? Because your form, you can't argue with it can't argue with form can't argue with stats stats don't lie off the pitch

off the pitch I was sweet I was in a good mental space so I don't know what it could have been then this is what I'm saying who knows and maybe

one day we'll probably get you know the reason but to this day, not sure why. In 2019, as shown in the documentary, your mother was admitted to hospital. What was the cause of that happening?

What was the lead-up of events that sent her to hospital? Just the depression. it was just so bad that she couldn't really cope anymore and i think she needed to go away and get help but then leaving me with my little sister who was probably 11 at the time and you know my little brother who's probably like 15 at the time for me i was still going through my own things as well so i weren't really the the big bro that they wanted at the time because they always get like the fun the laughy jesse the bubbly jesse but at that time i was going for my own own stuff, so I was just autopilot.

Your mum's in hospital. You've got two younger siblings that you're now primary carer of. And how are things going on the pitch? You're saying that you just weren't present on the pitch. Just weren't there, like, mentally. Weren't there. Like, I'd be on the pitch, but still wouldn't be on the pitch really? nah I don't want to play

I don't want to I don't want to quit football I've never quit football but I would have needed a break if lockdown didn't come I wouldn't need a break 100%

and is this in this is in Oles first year or second year? yeah it's probably second year and I'm just going into games like just just mind blank just just on the pitch Yeah, so the second year and I'm just going into games.

Just mind blank. Just on a pitch. I didn't want to be there. So of course I'm going to play bad. And then you get an abuse. That was kind of what tipped it over, to be honest. After the Derby game. What happened?

So we won. But as soon as you get on the bus, it's jesse your shit blah blah like why are you playing for us blah blah and to be fair luke shaw backed it to be honest he came down off the bus and like started shouting i'm arguing whatever but don't know if it's derby fans or united fans but like I'm human, do you know what I mean? Of course it's going to affect me. Like, I'm already down enough anyway. I'm already going through things what you don't know about. And I've got to perform on a weekly basis.

And when you're performing, you're not performing 100%. So, of course, there's going to be critics and, you know, you're not playing that well. going to be critics and you know you're not playing that well but to be abused like that it's kind of what kind of what tipped it

to be fair that was like I was like nah I can't I can't be arsed anymore like I need a break I need to

find something some motivation some fire in my belly again to get going again because you know I can't be doing this

and there'll be another game next week and I'll be like oh I can't be arsed I don't want to play just during that time that time period

of everything what was going on mum looking after my little brother and sister and that I felt like I had the world on my shoulders

there's this really kind of like moving haunting part in the documentary where i think your brother your older brother has literally videoed you lying on the sofa completely yeah still your eyes are like blank that's how it was like even at training like just masking it just like asking what just masking you, the depression side of things. The anxiety. Like, I was still trying to be Jesse, like, banter jokes and that, but, you know,

it comes to a point where you actually need to say something because I felt like the world was on my shoulders and had no one to turn to. Like, I couldn't speak to them about anything. I didn't want to speak to them. I thought, you know what, I can deal with this. I can handle this. I'm grown enough to deal with this.

But come to a point where it was like, look, Oli, this is what's going on. And we kind of kept it, you know-knit to be honest but even just to have like ollie say like you know how's your mom how's she doing like i could have a conversation with him kind of a conversation with a conversation with a liaison woman and that just helped a little bit more just having that conversation and letting people understand like what i'm going through and then i think i did i did a piece for the paper um you know talking about it and i still don't think people really fully understood you know what was

going on until until like like the documentary came out in order for you to um be able to have those conversations with the people you first had to make the decision to like for you to talk about how you're feeling because Because once you open up, then they can give you that support. You talked about how it's difficult to do that when you're a young man. Did you realise in that moment that you were suffering with depression?

Could you see yourself in your mother? Yeah, probably, yeah. I think the video sums it up, the one where I'm on the sofa. I'm actually laying there for like three minutes, just staring to thin her. I don't know what I was thinking, don't know what was going

through my head at the time but like I say, I was drinking before bed, having a nightcap. I'm like, a lot about now, I'm like,

what am I doing that for? What I need is something to try and take the pain away and put me at ease somehow and try and take the pain away and like put me at ease somehow and like try and forget what was going on

but it makes ten times worse Do you feel the online criticism do you are you exposed to it

no don't read it you don't read it no have you ever gone on Twitter and looked at what people are saying

no I think that's the worst thing anyone can do some players must do that No. I think that's the worst thing anyone can do. Some players must do that though, right? I think players do it, yeah. But I don't know why. Because,

to be fair, I'm strong enough to handle it now. Yeah. Like, I'm strong enough to handle negative comments, criticism, whatever. Can't shut up football. But there's no point going in search for it. Point?

In a sewer. Yeah, there's no point going in search for it in a sewer yeah there's no point why search for it because I'm thinking about like you know we talked a lot recently about players like Harry Maguire

being on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and stick in my view most of it's completely unjust but I've always wondered if players

actually feel that criticism and it impacts their game yeah I think so can you see that when you're in the dressing room if you know a player's like been slammed in the press or online or whatever can you see them drop like their head drop a little bit and then yeah they probably try and mask it a little bit yeah just to like be strong like i can handle it but something like we are human. Of course, criticism is going to affect us,

especially when the pundits are saying it. And it's especially them, you know, with the pundits saying it, more than a comment on Instagram or stuff like that on any social media. Because it gets highlighted more, you know, in the press with, you know a pundit saying it so of course you're going to see it or someone's going to send it

but then it's kind of masking it trying to be strong and then you've got to go and perform but I think the majority of players you know in this day and age are strong enough to tally what anyone says anymore You did perform when you went to West Ham you really really performed as we've discussed um i think

a lot of people were expecting you to stay there because you performed so well and it just seemed like you finally found your your groove consistent you schooled the goals you got the assists what was your thinking at that point when that loan comes to an end did you want to stay at west ham you wanted to stay yeah manchester united You wanted to stay? Yeah. Manchester United wanted you to come back. Yeah. So I had a year. Yeah. I went into my final year after that then.

And I still wanted to go on loan in Jan. So I went playing again. So Newcastle was on the cards in Jan. Deal was done, everything. Obviously, the United squad weren't big enough. So, a couple of players got on loan. And then, when it came to me, John Murtagh rang me.

He was like, no, you're not going on loan. I was like, well, he's gone on loan. He's got to let me score on injury. I'm not playing he's gone let me score on Andrew I'm not playing there so let me score on long let me play football to Newcastle yeah

and he's like what do you want days off I was like no that's what I'm gonna play football on what do you want days off yeah so this is the whole thing

what happened so then they stopped the loan obviously I was pissed and then when he said about the days off and that I messaged him

I was like you know what I'm going to take two days off now it's good you said that so then they put out Jesse's asked for

two days off in the media what? went on Twitter straight away no I didn't ask for two days off he asked me the one days i just put it out there i fucked how how what was the dressing room like at that point you know because a lot of players would obviously when ronaldo comes in obviously all

eventually ends up getting fired etc etc um it did feel like you know they use this phrase oh the manager's lost the dressing room or there's from a fan looking in you could just see that there was something wrong with the culture at the club

players were coming there that were world class as we said earlier world class elsewhere coming they were becoming fucking average players you've got all of these

these rumours leaking you've got all of this stuff happening players at the club feeling like their trust has been broken like you said you've been lied to

a few times it just felt like there was no someone didn't have control of the place no it wasn't you've got all of this stuff happening, players at the club feeling like their trust has been broken, like you said you've been lied to a few times. It just felt like there was no, someone didn't have control of the place. No, there was no control, I don't think. Like you say, when Sir Alex was there, it was full control. Like a fortress, yeah.

A fortress. Everything goes through him. Contracts, everything, like commercials, like everything. Of course, generations generations change players grow up people have a voice but like you say

when things are getting said about you that's not true you're going to voice your opinion like you say it wouldn't happen

back in the day it would be squashed there and then with Sir Alex but like you say now people have got platforms to

voice their own opinion and write what they want Do you think players have lost respect not in this sort of Eric Ten Hagira but just in that period that followed through

these managers and the Solskjaer do you think players from what you'd seen had kind of lost respect for the club? Probably yeah It looked like that

Yeah probably It looked like this wasn't the same yeah there's no control control right there's no there's no structure

there's no there's no balance people doing what they want pretty much on it it's like a free for all free for all yeah it's just a free for all

I mean like you say people saying something like that's never happened ever at United and people are saying stuff on Twitter people saying something like, that's never happened, ever, at United.

People are saying stuff on Twitter, and I think it happened with Paul, and that, as well. He got a lot of scrutiny. Guy's one of the best midfielders in the world. I've known him since I was like 16. Kid's got talent, man.

He's one of the best midfielders in the world and still he can't perform at United so there's something wrong in some way you've got one of the best midfielders in the world who can't perform and then

during the season when you have in national Britain he goes to France and you see how he plays at France it's like yeah guy's sick and you see how he plays with France it's like yeah

guy's sick and you come back like I don't even like this I told you I don't know what it is I don't know I can't say what it is I don't know what it is

I enjoyed my time under Jose there I'd want one of my best seasons under Jose there I was going to say that of all these managers Van Gaal you know

Mourinho in Moy Ole in the Moyes in the post Sir Alex Ferguson era when did it most feel like there was control and that United

was starting to be more like United probably Van Gaal to be honest really yeah he he had a structure

like everyone understood what he wanted like some people didn't like I love Van Gaal He had a structure. Everyone understood what he wanted. Some people didn't like him. I love Van Gaal. Very tactical. Knew I wanted to play.

And everyone bought into that. And then, of course, Jose. Best manager in the world. Just wants to win. But like you say, had that man management as well. And had the belief in me. And the trust in me to perform like I say

I had one of my best seasons on the jersey that's how I went to the World Cup If you could wave a one then if I give you a one then I said okay in that

all era in that post Alex Ferguson era do one thing to fix the club's issues what would you have done what would that one wish have

been you know what it is I think like the soul behind on like with everything like you see like City's

facility you see Tottenham's facilities when we go there like with England and like when we train at Tottenham like people on

miles ahead even like like the social side of things and i went to him like two months ago eating about like youtube and let's do like content like they're so behind on everything i just want them to just get up to date on like the new things that are happening like the things that are popping what does that matter you gotta be relevant you gotta stay relevant but in terms of like the training ground obviously Ronaldo in the Piers Morgan interview talks about

the jacuzzi and the chefs and the food and the facilities and the weights training equipment and he left years ago yeah

he says he came back and it was all the same yeah what impact does that have on you as a player? you want the best things you want especially

like United's one of the biggest clubs in the world so you know you want the best for, you want, especially, like, United's one of the biggest clubs in the world, so, you know, you want the best for the best, and, you know, of course,

you want the best food, and, you know, you want the swimming pool, and the jacuzzi, and the sauna, which is, it's still there,

but, you know, it's like, being more modern, like, modernised, because, like, you see like you know

cities facilities and that and like you think like come on like like get up to date like catch up a little bit like because like you're way behind

at the moment is it is it a symbolic thing like as in it's just a it's kind of a symbol that you're not keeping up with the other clubs

you're not investing in the small stuff which as a player you go, well then, well, we're also behind on the pitch and we're just behind. Just behind in general because like back in the day we used to have like tables on each table and like pool and everything. So like we keep you like mentally you know happy and you know we had a dart ball and stuff like that but not anymore

like just like no games room or nothing and like you just go in you train and you go home

sometimes you gotta like stay at the training ground sometimes you know play darts with the lads and you know

play table tennis with the boys and that but this is like like I say just need to catch up a little bit more and become a little bit more modern. Of course, you change the canteen and that, but, you know, to be relevant and stay in this day and age, you know, you've got to be a little bit more modern. Is that because of the ownership? Is that like the people at the top of the club

just don't understand what's important for the players because they spent their money on players but to hear that they didn't spend

their money on things behind the scenes kind of speaks to the fact that I don't know because Sir Alex Ferguson probably could have called the shots

back in the day and said we need this we need this we need this we need this whereas these days the last decade, who's calling the shots?

We don't know. Like, don't know what's going on. And of course, now they want to sell the club. But the fans have been wanting them out for, you know, a long time.

But did the players care? Did the players take a view? Do you think? Not really. It was just, like I say, just behind, we were just behind

on a lot of things. And like I say, you want that modern, you want the modern things, you want the things that are, you know, popping off at that time. But I don't know

who calls the shots about, you know, changing the training ground or things like that but like I say just to catch up a little bit and you see what City are doing on that like I say fresh training ground

best facilities no one talking back in the press about the team You chose after your time at Old Trafford, after your contract had come to an end, to go to Nottingham Forest. A lot of people were surprised by that. A lot of people would have thought

you would have gone back to West Ham where you had an unbelievable run or even to Newcastle or somewhere like that. Why did you choose Nottingham Forest? Newly promoted team. They've just been promoted, right? Yeah. Why Forest? I think they showed the love. newly promoted team they've just been promoted right? yeah why Forrest?

I think they showed the love they showed you know the willingness and the hunger to want me dude's gonna fly me here here there and everywhere to to get the deal over the line things broke down at West Ham

negotiations which obviously I can't get into too much, but, you know, Nightingale showed the love a lot more than, you know,

West Ham. And, you know, when you think about it, you know, I've been at West Ham anyway before and you expect,

like, you see what I can do and I've seen what i've done so you expect them to be like yeah like you know what i will show you the love like like this is a contract blah blah like let's negotiate let's talk and they weren't like that for some reason they didn't want you to sign no they want me to sign what would give you a good deal kind of rush it it's like kind of rushed like it'll be like Wednesday and they'll be like sign by Friday

like this is the deal let's start like you know me like I'm not show a little respect yeah like show a little respect like I've been there

I've helped your team like we got to Europa League I show a lot bit more respect and that we're not in government it's like

listen like we love you we want you the manager will come to like listen like we love you we want you the manager will come to your house like the owner wants to fly you to Greece

like to sign a deal like doing everything in their power to get the deal over the line and you know for me it was a new challenge

different challenge new different way of team of course I've known I've known United all my life and I remember leaving Leaving United

The last day And The physio that we had From under 18 Obviously is with the first team now He's like I remember that FA Cup goal I remember the youth cup

You know run When you won the youth cup I'll always remember that goal The FA fa cup goal so i got my car yeah just started crying just just started bawling crying like all the way home drove home yeah i brang my brother i was like i'm leaving you know i'm leaving leaving crying all the way home on that like i couldn't contain my emotions and that and then like it lasted a long time. I've been there all my life. I know everyone in the club from staff, kit men, dinner ladies,

Mike Glennie who scouted me to United. That's been my life, United. How did you feel about the club when you left it? Did you feel let down, like disappointed? Yeah, a little bit. They say false promises here and there. Not really give you a reason why, you know, you weren't playing. So, yeah, kind of let down, to be honest.

Like I say, didn't really get a send-off. Been there that long. I think I deserve deserve one but when you get in that car or you when i've been in the moment as well where i've like you know i quit my business that i'd started seven years in when there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees and my first reaction i gotta be honest was like i was i was like when i knew i was gonna quit i was so mad and i wrote this email and it was kind of bitter and whatever else. When I realised I was actually going to send this email, there was this little pause. And this is when I was in,

I was in Portugal at the time and I got really emotional. Yeah. Cause it would, that's when you look back and go, I'm actually going here. Yeah. It hits you. It hits you.

Yeah. It's all said and done now. Yeah. And I'm, I'm leaving. And so I redid the email and it was like a really nice one. It was like a thank you to like the board and stuff for taking the chance on me and stuff.

So yeah, it's tough though. That was tough. When he said that, when the physio said that, I was gone, crying all the way home in the car. And people don't know that. Like people probably thought like, oh yeah, he's happy to leave. But I needed to leave. I wasn't playing so

why am I gonna like I got offered a contract but what's the point I'm not gonna play so I wouldn't rather

like yeah biggest club in the world but happiness is more important for me and I needed to be happy and go somewhere I'm loved

and it's been a difficult start to the season for Nottingham on the pitch me and I needed to be happy and go somewhere where I'm loved. It's been a difficult start to the season for Nottingham on the pitch. As we sit here now, I believe they're in the relegation zone, in the table. What's your view on the start of the year for Nottingham? I think it's always going to be tough, especially with new players coming in. I think 22, 23? Yeah, crazy. So it's always going to be tough,

but I feel like, especially the Tottenham game, the Palace game, we started getting a bit more momentum. Everyone knows the roles and responsibilities now. We play with each other a lot more and we understand each other a lot more. So I felt like the connection was there,

especially Tottenham and the Palace game. And then obviously now we've had a break, but I think the break can do us good to regroup and really re-evaluate and see what the main aim is for the season. And of course, we don't want to bring relegations, or what we win in games. A way we need to do a lot better, because we're struggling away from home at the moment,

but home games can be really crucial and key, because the atmosphere is nothing I've... I've never heard it like before. I've never been in an atmosphere like that. For the game, it's a draw. I get goosebumps every time. And I feel like we need to really, I think, just dig deep. I think everyone knows what the situation we're in anyway.

And it's just about, you know, maintaining, keep working hard. Of course, the attackers have got to score and, you know, we've got to do our job. You know, it's different for me because, you know, I've been playing at United and, you know, of course, you have all the ball and, you know, we're getting shots and chances and that. Of course, it's going to be difficult at Nottingham

where, you know, you might not see the ball as much and you're not getting as many shots and you're not creating as many chances. But, you know, I thrive off these moments and these challenges. You might not see the ball as much and you're not getting as many shots and you're not creating as many chances. But I thrive off these moments and these challenges. It's a new challenge and I'm happy to be there. I love training, I love playing in the games. And that's the most important, just to be happy for me.

Off the pitch, you're 29 now. Players, I think the average age of a player usually goes, don't know 32 ish i don't know what are you thinking about off the pitch what's going on in your world i know you've got your you've got your brand you're doing several investments and sort of deals you've got a media company give me a view of what what that looks like i said even at united i've always, you know, off the pitch, I've always, I'm always on the goal. Always want to know

what the next thing is to do. What's the next investment? What can I be involved in? What can I do? Esports comes. Gaming. Love gaming. Esports team.

Let's do an esports team. Brand. Love fashion. Let's do a brand. Like, the launch for the brand was like was amazing i mean like 3 000 people turned up like victoria where else and then at the night time little baby was there we got a little baby to perform and he went even big big then um

but i just want to i just want to be happy and do things that I want to do to make me happy and you know the investment in the business side of things of course I want to set up things for my little sister

for my little brother for my daughter when she grows up that they can just go into straight away and I think with the media company it's called One Touch guess um it's called one touch

guess why it's called one touch uh because you play one touch with your granddad so i named it one touch um and obviously the channel 4 documentary came from from that and i feel like it's just easier because if i do a commercial now i say you do jbl commercial and they're getting the production and i can be like well you can use my production then like the talent can get paid and productions you can get paid at the same time so it's a win win

and all the like anything that we do that we video or record we get

like final say so anyway so it's all under our umbrella and like I say after football I want to go into acting so

maybe starting this now and maybe start doing a little bit of voiceover work and like, you know, the animation kind of thing. But I need to take drama classes. I've not done that yet.

Why acting? So, when you think about your life after football, some people think about being a pundit or a manager or a coach, whatever.

You're thinking acting? Yeah. How come? I just love films, man. I just just i've always been a big film lover and you know to be involved in you know a film or a series would be you know it'd be amazing and like i say, I need to really, you know, hone in on the drama side of things and, you know, learn, like, I'm really bad with lies, to be honest. What would be your dream role? Have you got an idea in mind for what?

What kind of, like, acting? Just give me an example. I think I'd start comedy. Comedy? I think I'd start comedy first. And then, you know, when you see the Interstellars and the Inceptions, them kind of roles. But that's going to take time.

Like, you're not going to be thrown in straight away. Maybe a bit part here and there. But, you know, for the future with the media company, we've got so many things, you know, in the line-up. And obviously it's based in LA, and that's where eventually, hopefully, I want to finish football. You want to finish in America?

Yeah, I think so. At the very centre of your documentary is the story of your mother. I found this wonderful picture. What does she mean to you? No, she's been through it, Mum. She's been through it, and... You know, to see where she's, like, where she is today,

from where she was, huge progression. I'm so proud of her. And it can be hard because she's had depression for years and years and years. Like I say, having me probably made that worse for her. Because she couldn't probably handle you know being a mother at that time

but luckily we had you know my nana and grandad there to support us but what do you

want for her I just want the best for her I want her to see you know our kids

grow up I know she's so proud of me i've you know how far i've come you know she'll still message me if i'm a bad game or i think like which is good same like my granddad same my dad same brother um but yeah she's been through it but i just one of the best for her like i say i want to you know keeping her in this lifetime long enough to you know see me progress see hope progress into the character or what she's gonna turn into because she's a character at the moment you're proud of her no yeah massively massively just to

from sitting in bed you know the age i was there probably or maybe a little bit older, not being social, to FaceTiming me every day and ringing me every day and, Jess, what you doing? And I love that. And I think my little sister, like, she's 14, but she acts like she's 18. But I think she helps my mum as well a lot which is good because my mum never really had someone to like lean on like not even my nan like not even my granddad really that

much like she's she's not really had like a proper friend to lean on you know in times of struggle but i think having daisy there you know my little sister, you know, she's really helped me mum. And I think mum, you know, thrives off that. And like I say, we're both daft. We're all daft. Honestly, if you had a camera an hour or so, honestly, it's 24-7 carnage. Honestly.

I believe you. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving the question for. The question that's been left for you is, what are the uncomfortable things that you banish to the shadows, which means kind of put in the shadows, which would improve your life if you integrated them?

Basically means what are the things that you put in the shadows that would improve your life if they weren't in the shadows, I guess? I think just to question things a little bit more because, you know, growing've never i never do that like i've been put in situations where i could question things like go and ask a question you don't actually not get but i've never done that and you know it's only taught me over these last couple of years where, you know, I can finally, like, man up and, you know, be strong enough to ask a question. Because sometimes, like, sometimes it can take time

for, you know, a person to, you know, to grow up and, you know, be a man, but, you know, having my daughter, like, changed a lot of things and, you know, like I say, if things don't go your way I can't someone to question you know things but back in the day I would never well Jesse thank you thank you um for so many reasons you've given me so much joy as a Manchester United fan um over the years I've I've you know not just because of your off the field on the field performance but just generally like the personality you've brought into the game and the happiness you bring to your game um but also the documentary you've released on channel four

is incredibly important incredibly inspiring because it's starting a new wave of conversation around players mental health and really a call for empathy because we never as fans know what's going on out off the pitch behind the scenes and to have a view into that puts puts things in perspective it kind of turns the lights on and when you can see that full picture hopefully people will realize as you've said that your your players you're not robots and that even one comment or one thing happening at home can like all of us like the rest of us human beings can have a really debilitating impact on us our mental well-being and how we perform and that's a really important conversation one that you didn't need to to start one that you could have very easily just kept to yourself and it's um tremendously

strong contrary to popular opinion um to speak out like that especially when you're a man and it's not so easy to do so because of the stigma so thank you for that that's incredibly important and i'm exceptionally excited to see the next chapter of your life play out at nottingham forest but then much further on beyond as you as you embark on a new career in a different industry. Thank you. It means a lot to me that you've come here today. I appreciate it, Stephen.

Pleasure to meet you. Thank you.