The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Jessie J: I Quit Music, Deleted An Album, Then Changed My Mind

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Jessie J is a singer and songwriter who has been singing professionally since she was 11 years old. In 2010 she shot to fame with the release of her first single, Do It Like A Dude. She has since sold millions of records, performed at the closing ceremony of the London Olympics, and been a judge on the talent shows The Voice and The Voice Kids. This episode with Jessie is a special conversation. She was candid and open about the highs and lows throughout her life, and shared with me some things that she has never voiced before. From her early childhood memories, to the fame and success of her music, to health issues and grief, Jessie spoke with such honesty and tenderness. But she also talks about how she has enabled herself to break open and embrace the grief that she has stored up and hidden away. Jessie is someone who has always come out fighting, and here she goes into how that’s been possible in a way she never has before. We learn about how to stay grounded as you become famous, especially in the dizzying swirl of Los Angeles. I want to thank Jessie for her honesty and for taking the time to record this episode with me, it will certainly change how you think about a lot of things in life. Follow Jessie J: Twitter - https://twitter.com/jessiej Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jessiej Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I felt like I'd been given everything I've ever wanted, and then someone had gone, but you can't have it. I've never felt so lonely in my life. Jessie J! 2015, 16. It was really the first time that I'd had fame. I didn't know how to cope with it. So I just panicked all the time.

I just want to sing. The day that I found out that the baby had died, I didn't have anyone to just fall apart on. And that's what I needed. That's what I wanted. When I sent you that voice note, it was around the time when you'd done a big post about Dave. He was my guy.

And I wish I could have protected him from himself like he protected me from myself. That's the bit that hurts me the most. Between Dave and Jamal, the things that those people gave me in my life are things that I know

I have to find in myself. You got this bougie-ass place and you got kitchen roll, I have to find him myself. You've got this bougie-ass place and you've got Kitchen Row, I love it. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO USA edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are,

then please keep this to yourself. I tend to believe that people's family are their foundation. And when I was reading through the story of your family in your early years, it actually seemed pretty idyllic. Yeah, I mean, we were, my mum and dad, I didn't grow up with loads of money. Like we weren't hard, hard up, but we weren't rich. But and dad, I didn't grow up with loads of money. Like we weren't hard, hard up, but we weren't rich. But when I think about it again, like the one thing that I've learned from my parents the most is it doesn't matter about the things and the specifics. It's about the energy

you create within what you have. So like we would go camping in the garden and my dad would pretend to be a bear in the middle of the night. And I believe to this day it was a bear. Like, you know, my mum's like looking out the window because she's gone in because she's like, I ain't doing this. To this day? Yeah, my dad's peeing in a bucket.

Yeah, they're still doing it. Like not in front of us because that would be weird. But like, just they used to just create these experiences and it was all about feeling and that's what I remember the most from my childhood like more so than anything else like it's weird like I was in hospital a lot of my childhood and I never ever thought I was sick because my mum and dad never treated me as if I was. Like they would, it never became a definitive of who I was, which is, I think, even why now I don't define myself on that. I don't want to, even when other people try.

But there was just always this air of making the best of whatever the moment was, even if it was tough. Your dad worked in mental health? Yeah, mental health social worker. How did that influence your early years? Well, my dad is a Pisces through and through. He's an emotional, honest, hilarious, very sensitive, stubborn man.

And so growing up, he's very in touch with like his feelings and his emotions, which isn't common in a lot of men, you know. And we grew up talking. And I spent a lot of time with my dad when I was young. And he used humour in his job and with us as me and my two sisters and his relationship with my mum. He made her laugh. And even now, my dad's humour is his defence, his way of hiding, his way of making friends, his way of healing. And him being a social worker was always that beautiful thing

where he used to ride the line, where he would open you up, know that you were going to cry and then make you laugh. And you always feel safe when you're very, very sad and then you laugh. The emotions always kind of, they intertwine. Like deep sadness and like intense happiness are so close together. That like feeling when you're at a funeral

and everyone's crying and then someone makes a joke and everyone bursts into laughter. Like that's the line that my dad is incredible at kind of balancing. You're good at that too. Which is where I get it from. I've watched you in some of your hardest moments. Yeah, I make a joke,

but I use it in a way to allow people to feel safe, including myself, to bring out the sadness and the pain, you know, and to talk about something really intense or go through a moment that's hard, but then make a joke or make light of the situation or laugh at ourselves, you know? And then like go into bird's eye view and look down and go, look at us lot.

You paid 30 quid to come and cry. You know what I mean? And it's like, and it's that thing of you just coming, tapping back into reality and just going, oh God, like it's not, I'm not alone. Like, and it's good to laugh. And laughter can feel as, to to me as connective as crying with someone as being intimate with someone there's that thing that you have where if you're

really in that moment it's such a release you said you spent a lot of your time as a kid in hospital yeah what was the the first time you went to hospital first First memory I have, I think I was eight and we was in Epping Forest. Have you been to Epping Forest? I haven't, no. Probably not. Well, you can go, it's lovely. They're all the same though, the forests. Yeah, so yeah, it always starts in a forest and it's like an episode of Black Mirror. So me and my sisters and my dad were in the park and he said, let's race to the car. So we started to run. And I just remember I couldn't breathe. And I collapsed. And the next thing I remember is my dad picking me up and run into the car. We got into the car, we went to the hospital. And my dad has WPW. My granddad had WPW,

which is a heart problem. And so that was the first time I was taken in with a regular heartbeat. I was put on very heavy medication as a child which would cause me to have seizures and pass out and it was just awful. So I was in and out of hospital a lot as a child. It was weird, I remember being let out for the day to go and do rehearsals for Bugsy Malone and then I would go back in so I'd be on a drip at the rehearsal so there was always this kind of balance that kept me present in myself and not and I almost think that that was that's been my

blessing in my life like my health has always kept my feet on the ground um in many ways but I never remember being in hospital and being aware of what I was going through. Every memory I have, I'm always thinking about the people I watched and remember looking at going, God, they need a magazine or they haven't eaten anything today or I wonder how they're feeling. I don't remember being in pain or coming around from an operation.

It's weird, it's trippy it's almost like it didn't happen you define yourself as an empath you said it when you came yeah for sure and even people that hurt me I feel bad for the people that hurt me because I look at why they've hurt me as opposed to the way I feel but again I don't know I try and use it as the best I can because I know it's just who I am. When you were in hospital, one of the things that you saw was, which inspired Big White Room, was a boy laid next to you. Yeah, so I was in a, it was a ladybird ward.

And there was a little boy in the room with me. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night and he was crying and praying and had like all of these like tubes and you know, like the bloodlines and stuff. I can't remember what it was, what's it called? I don't remember what it's called, but like he would just had all these things and he was just going, please don't let me die.

I'm so scared. Don't let me die, God. I want to stay here. I really want to be here. And he was, I can't, he was probably 10 or 11. And I woke up and I remember just sitting and watching him for hours and just listening to him. And then the next morning, I remember seeing his mum come in and just taking all the balloons. And I said to my mum, like, I was upset. And I just

remember saying, why, you know, why, why wasn't he, why isn't he here now? Like he asked so nicely. And my mum just said, you know, sometimes God needs his angels closer to him. And I remember that moment stayed with me for years. You know, I was probably 10 when that happened. And when I was 16, 17, I had to write a song about it. It was the first song I wrote and it stayed with me. That was the way I needed to let that feeling out, you know, of like, everybody's looking at me and everyone's staring at me. What do I do now? I smile because I'm still here. I don't want to be here. And I don't remember what I felt like before. You know, and obviously since that moment, that experience,

and then when I wrote the song, I'd also gone through a lot more health stuff and experiences. But that was the most human thing I'd ever seen, even though I wasn't conscious of the fact that it was. How long did that last, the health issues in your sort of pre-18 years in terms of going in and out of hospital? Not very long. I mean, it was chunks of time and I had an ablation which is like a little operation they do where they put two wires through your shoulder and two wires through your groin and they try and kind of electrocute your heart into a normal rhythm

and it didn't work so I get a regular heartbeat now but I just I don't take any medication I believe in good diet and like how I feel and I try and do everything the holistic natural way um I don't believe in medicine as much as other people do but I think it was funny because I actually got to a point where I felt a lot stronger and I was in a stride and I was in a girl band and I was at the Brit school and I was like, I'd cut my hair and I was a Vidal Sassoon model and I was like, you know, I'm starting to feel like I can fit in and I'm not the sick kid that can sing, you know.

And then I had a stroke when I was 17. And then it kind of, again, kind of took a dip and then I'd get back on my feet and I get signed and then I broke my foot you had a stroke at 17 yeah I had a stroke in Hamleys you know it's the toy shop yeah yeah yeah I work there doing now jazz now art um and I was like I don't feel very well and I was like doing a lot I've always been someone that's like overexerted myself and probably doesn't know when to take a break. And yeah, I lost the feeling on the right side of my body for almost a month. And now all my issues have been on this side, like this side of my body. So I know like, it's so weird because

like when people go, oh my God, you had a stroke? And I'm like, yeah, I don't even think about it. I don't define, I don't want to define myself don't define I don't want to define myself on it I don't want to introduce myself with it because like I'm grateful it happened because if those things hadn't happened in my life you know the many years the the uterus issues I've had the fertility thing the miscarriage like you grow in moments of sadness and pain you know and I grew up in those moments and I didn't take my body for granted. And I think it's actually given me more moments of beautiful success and joy in my life,

not drowning my body in alcohol and drugs and having to take moments of still and resting. And it was almost like a very young age, a very pivotal time of my career kind of starting to take off in a more of a, this could actually be my life way. My body would always keep me safe, even though it was shutting down. It would always just remind me to go, you're not superhuman. You could die. Don't fuck this up. And so it almost feels like my health has just always had my back when my life has gone like this.

It's always kind of gone, take a second. And for a long time, I felt like I was cast with this spell that every time I kind of got somewhere, I was just about to break America and I broke my foot and I had to pull out of opening for Katy Perry on tour and all these things that like, you know, you've got your thing, you sit with your team and you go,

this is going to happen and this is great and everyone's excited and then I get sick. And, you know, even to recently, I was about to release my album and my first single and then I was in a car accident and I had a throat issue where I had nerve and tissue damage and I couldn't sing and then my menis and then I was in a car accident and I had a throat issue where I had nerve and tissue damage and I couldn't sing and then my menis and I went deaf in this ear and but now I don't even want to release that album because I don't really like the music

really and I'm like maybe that's why it happened I just feel like I've been protected by my health being what other people would see as bad. But every time something happens to my body, I'm always like, okay, what am I not listening to? So I feel like that's my personal way of looking at it and my journey. So when you say, how long was that for? It's kind of been my whole life.

Even up until recently when, you know, right when I got my voice back and I started doing these shows and I finally was told I could sing again and I phoned my agent and I was like, I have to do like a, I don't know, like a residency somewhere. And I started doing these acoustic shows.

And I was like, I really want to do stand up. You know, I want to do comedy. I want to make people laugh and sing. That's literally my purpose, right? And then the day before the first show, I have a miscarriage. And I still went and did it. You know, not because the show must go on. But to me, like, Jessie J and Jessica Cornish, like, Jessie J is just a brand name. They go hand in hand. They're the same person. You know, like, the reason that my music exists is because my life exists. You know, I write about shit I go through.

You know, so I want to stand in the middle of the pain, even when it's terrifying and you're being exposed. But even in that moment, I was like, this, I know this happened for a reason. You know, like, the day that I found out that my, that the baby had died, this man, and I, you know, I can't make this stuff up and I always wish someone would see these things happen, but I was on the street crying uncontrollably. I felt like I'd, my body had gone numb. Like I was just on the street and I, I was standing there and I

couldn't move. I literally just stood at this bush for like two hours and I was standing there and I couldn't move. I literally just stood at this bush for like two hours and I was phoning everybody that I knew to try and answer the phone and just, because I was by myself, I was in Santa Monica and this man came up to me and said, I don't know what's going on in your life in this second, but I know that it's happening so that you can talk about it and help other people. And I remember just going, that's the story of my life. And the anger I felt where I was like, why can't this just be about me? Like, why do I have to help someone else? And then I realised that is what I've been called on to do. Like, I know that what I do is so much bigger than me. It's not about the song or the accolades or the awards or

this. It's about the feeling that you can hand over to someone that they can't find themselves. And I have experienced so many things that are so randomly rare. And then also I've experienced things that aren't rare at all but no one talks about. And the amount of women and men that have been close to someone losing a baby or having infertility issues or losing children themselves or even women that have had children that don't know how to connect with their children,

talking about that pain not only helped me but helped other people. And I know that, going back to what you asked me before, I know that's so much of my purpose, as much as hard as it can be in moments. I get so much peace from knowing that pain that I know I can handle and have a different perspective of than someone else that might not, that I can share that with them and give them a different perspective as they can me. But

obviously I do it on a, maybe a bigger platform. It is such an amazing feeling for me to be able to give that to someone that can't find it on their own. It's a heavy weight to carry. It's always have to be the inspiration though, right? Yeah, for sure. But it isn't always the case. But I think it's just understanding that. Like understanding that after I did that first show,

a huge part of me regretted it. Because I was angry that I reacted as Jessie J. I reacted as my brand. I reacted as, I need people to know I'm okay. Like, I don't want people to think I'm this always sick, always ill, always have something going on. Like, didn't she just go deaf? That's the comments. Didn't she just like, da-da-da-da?

You know, like when you go into a new relationship, people are like, wasn't she just with so-and-so? And it's like, that was two years ago, but they live in a little bubble of when they want to discover things. You're talking about doing the show... The show after the day after I had a miscarriage, like, in the sense of the reaction of going, I must, the show must go on, I must.

After that show, I surrendered to my pain and for nobody else but myself. And that's something that I don't think I've ever done. And a lot of grief came out. Grief of grandparents, of friends, of people that I've lost, that it all came out in that moment. And still is, to be honest. It was only four months ago that this happened, five months ago. So I feel like a lot of grief that I had stored in interviews

where I was like, you know, and you've just got to find this, and it's always looking for the silver lining, and I actually just enabled myself to just break open and be miserable and sad and not have a quote at the end of my moment and just go, no, it's shit and I'm broken and it's awful and I'm sad. But knowing that the light would come, and it did, and it is, but knowing that speeding up my process of grief

because it makes somebody else feel good is great but also not going to be healthy for me. Do you remember the day when you found out that you would struggle to, well the doctor told you that you would struggle to have children? Oh yeah. It was in the middle of a really major busy time for me. It was right before bang

bang and I was on all doing all these different shows and I basically would have this extreme pain like agonizing pain I would pass out it was awful and they were like you have IBS and I was like no I don't I know I don't have IBS like and they would just be like, yes, you do. That's what it is. And I was like, no, I know myself. I know my body. I know it's not IBS. And I stuck with it. And I was like, I went to keep, kept going to see different doctors. And I finally got diagnosed with endometriosis, which is very common. And then I had an operation that, you know, they took all the endometriosis out. I went home. I still live with my parents. I went home and I was still in agony and I was still having the episodes. And so I went

back into hospital and they did another operation where they discovered I have adenomyosis, which is a form of endometriosis that goes into the wall of the uterus. So they're little cells that you can't take out unless you take your uterus out. So they were like, you either manage the pain, which at the time I was like, how do I do this? Or we take your uterus out right now. And I was, what, 26?

And he was like, I would recommend you to do that. You know, this is only going to get worse. And I said, I'm good. I'll go home and I'll look at other ways I can look up and manage my pain. And that's when I went plant-based. That was, you know, years and years and years ago. And it definitely helped and improved. And I changed my lifestyle and kind of slowed my pace down. You know, after that record, the Bang Bang Sweet Talker record. And I took a long time, not off, but just low down. And that's when I wrote the Rose album. And so there's like behind the scenes, there's always a story for everybody.

But yeah, that moment was super pivotal for me. A lot of things happened at once. I was reading that, I think it was around the time you were in Australia. Yeah. 2015, 2016 time and you'd lost your grandparents. Yeah, within like four or five months of each other. You'd had a breakup. Yeah.

A breakup, my first breakup that was kind of public because I was with someone that was, you know, was famous and just discovering myself you know like it was really the first time that I'd had fame in America too and so like when I was famous in the UK like I obviously I came here a lot and it was kind of great because I was like oh I could just do whatever I want and no one cares so it was kind of like I could just escape to just live completely in the knowledge that I would leave my house or my hotel and for the whole day no one would be like

you know like or just come up to me with a camera phone or whatever and I just I needed that I was still quite young and you know and I I miss staring at people and getting away with it you know what I mean just like watching people eat or like staring at someone in the car next to you and knowing they're not going to look over and be like you know and so I remember coming here and just having that and then I didn't have that as much anymore here and I just felt really trapped really trapped like that was the lowest point that I've had in myself in this industry was 2014 15 16 in when I was back and forth from Australia and in that time that's when I moved here in 2015 when you say trapped what's the symptoms of being trapped? What does that manifest itself into?

I just felt like I couldn't breathe. I felt like everywhere I went, someone was watching me. I felt like I couldn't eat in public because someone would film me and comment on it, comment on what I was wearing, comment on my body, comment on... It always felt like I was being followed. That was the biggest thing where my anxiety came from and someone telling me or giving me something that I would then have to

focus on that I'd never saw like that I have a big jaw that I have like this or I've cellulite or I have that like where I would never even it it wasn't a thing. And then someone would go, have you ever noticed that she like says like, um, or like, like, like, like a lot. And then I'd be like conscious of the way I spoke. And, you know, like when you first get somebody commentating on everything you do and are, I was just like, how do I, how do I live unconsciously now? Like, how do I go to the beach without feeling like I'm in my underwear

in front of someone hiding in the bush taking pictures? How do I do that? You know, and I still don't know sometimes, even now. And so I just, I felt like I couldn't, it felt like I had to relearn how to do life. Like I was comfortable going in front of 100,000 people and singing a song, no problem. But going to put petrol in my car,

I literally was like, I don't even know how to do it. I would drop the thing. Like I wouldn't be able to lock the thing on the car because I would feel like someone was watching me. And like, it just destroyed me. And I remember just, I wouldn't leave my hotel room. Like I went out and bought like 50 hats. And even though it probably wasn't as bad as that, no, you don't go to, like, and I get that even me talking about it now, like, I'm conscious that there'll be people watching this going, all right, well, you fucking asked to be famous.

Get over it. Like, there's no space to feel like, you know what, there's parts of it that are amazing, but there are parts of it that are so toxic and unhealthy and so inhumane. And no one has a lot of space to have any empathy for that. And I'm not talking about all the time. I'm just talking about that moment in my life.

I just felt like I had no one I could talk to that had experienced it to guide me, to go, you're okay, you're safe, like no one's going to hurt you, you know, and I just felt so alone. I felt like I was hovering above everybody in every room I was in, like I wasn't able to just exist playing a game at a friend's house, that I was always just like, is everyone thinking about what I'm saying and they're going to repeat it? And so I just panicked all the time

that someone was going to misread what I was saying or if I was in a bad mood and I went to like a fish and chip shop and I was like, didn't want to take a picture, that they would then tell someone else and it would get to the Daily Mail. Did that happen? Oh, all the time. Jessie J, I mean, there were times where I then would almost, I remember for a little while, for a couple months,

I became what the press told me I was. Because I got so tired of justifying that I wasn't mean and I wasn't a diva that I was like, yeah, let me just be what they say I am. Because that's what people think I am anyway. And even when I am nice, like I remember going into a room and being like, hi, everyone, and no one responding, and me going... Hi, and everyone's like this, like... You know, like, when you're, like, at that, it's weird. It's like a... And that was, like, and I'm talking about that time

when it was, like, peak kind of everywhere fame, Saturday night TV, and it was just such a trippy experience and me just was like everyone hates me no one likes me anymore so I'm not

I'm not going to try and be liked it didn't last very long if you could go back and speak to Jessie that was going through that that wasn't staying in those hotel rooms

and that was stumbling to put the petrol in her car and reacting to the media what advice would you give her? Birds are of you babes just

the best piece of advice that was given from a therapist was perspective like imagine the world go above it imagine yourself flying above it and really look at what you're stressed about. Like get outside, get some air, just get outside, go to a park, like take a walk,

you know, and also be honest to your friends and your family about how you're feeling and allow them to be there for you. Because I think everyone was kind of, everybody was kind of swirled up in, I mean, you've experienced it yourself recently, going from being able to do whatever you do and no one knowing who you are, to then everyone knowing who you are and then everyone around you doesn't instantly go,

are you okay? They go, this is great. Isn't it amazing? Are you having so much fun? And you don't feel like you can go, actually, no. Some of it's great great but some of it's really weird and I need you to hold my hand and I'm a little scared and now I don't know how to get on the train when I never used to think about that and now I have to rethink about it and I go

can I go on this central line on a Saturday at peak time no so how do I get to where I need to go? Because my status is way higher than my money and I can't afford a driver. You know, and your mind is going, who do I talk to about this? Where do I go? And that's when I was 25, 26 and I shaved my head and I did all of that. I was just like, what is happening? And who do I tell that will understand? You know? So yeah. Did you find anyone that understood? Yeah, I think I had to learn that talking to my loved ones,

I remember sending out a message to everybody going saying, unless I am in danger or you don't think I've seen something that's really bad that's been put in the papers, I don't want to see it. Amen. Oh, that's the worst. I don't want to see it. I don't want,

don't send me a link of me on the beach because I was there. My friends and my family sending me links of people criticizing me. Have you seen this? What a load of shit. I'm like, I said to my mom and dad and my friends and my family sending me links of people criticizing me have you seen this what a load of shit I'm like I said to my mum and dad

and my brothers and sisters super early doors don't read the comment section on this website don't send me the link I'm not bothered I'm not looking if you want to look

but also the thing that they need to be focused on and this is what I had to say to my friends and family stop focusing on what the other people are saying focus on helping me be someone that can be within that like it doesn't matter what fucking Donald from Manchester thinks about my outfit that I wore, what matters is that I still feel confident

wearing those things after I may or may not have been forced to read those comments. Because that's the other thing, like fan bases will sometimes shove that in your face going, can you believe this? And it's like, I don't want to see it. I don't want to read it. And sometimes you're like, you literally can't avoid it. So your closest friends and family, that was the biggest thing for me was making them understand, like, I need you to be there for Jess, who's in the dressing room, not worrying about what the people think

that are in the audience watching Jessie J. I need you to care about the girl backstage before I even step on the stage. When you're a performer and you're in the public eye yeah you see it you've got to create basically a brand as you call it yeah you make the distinction between Jessica and Jessie and whatever and they're really the same person but yeah man same person is there a point in your life where you your identity got too caught up in being Jessie J yeah for sure when I wouldn't know what to wear like I'd wear a cat suit and like

my bob wig to like like a family barbecue because I just didn't know how to like tone it down I was just on this hamster wheel of like like and I just didn't know how to like I didn't know who I was away from working you know so like one thing I realize now is that you are a product of your environment. You are a product of your environment. And I see that in my niece and my nephews, you know, and all the young people I know. And I watch my best friends

and my close family members have children. And I see how different their kids are because they are a reflection of their environment, you know, and the beauty they can have if they're brought up in the middle of nowhere in the countryside, but then they're like not streetwise and they kind of, you know, and all these things. And so like when I look at like how I was in those pivotal moments of my life, and I think this is why I have so much empathy for young artists and, like, I really care about how they're protected. And just young people in general, like, protected from what the world is telling them they are as opposed to them discovering themselves. Like, I was a product of when I wake up, I'm working.

Like, this is what you wear, this is what you do, this'm working. Like, this is what you wear. This is what you do. This is how you act. This is what you say. And so, like, I didn't know how to switch off. Like, I would literally have to leave the house on a full face of makeup and, like, without... It was weird.

It was like a trippy... I remember going on holiday with a couple of my girlfriends and we were going for dinner and, like, I was so stressed about what to wear and how to do, and it was so dumb. It's not even like important, but it was moments like that when I was just like, God, I need to chill out. I'm not Jessie J right now, but I didn't know who I was. I literally had no clue, like what my favorite color was or what food do I like to eat? I would just get given this is what we've got this is what you've got time to eat for so long it was so unhealthily fast it was just everything was so speeded up and I was like what do I want to what are my hobbies what do I like to do other than just sing and travel? I couldn't travel to sing.

I don't know. And that's when I was like, okay, I need to take a second. And after that third album, I took like four years. And disappeared. In that time, you've got record labels telling you, presumably, who you are, who they want you to be. Not even. You know what?

There's one thing I will say about my record label. You know, for as much as, you are, who they want you to be. Not even. You know what? There's one thing I will say about my record label. You know, for as much as, you know, you always have your disagreements with anybody in power and anybody, you know, that you work for or work with or work under or work next to. But my record label have always supported me to the best of their ability and and to the best that I understand like the Rose album the last album I put out was my favorite that I've ever put out

was it the most successful no was it the most authentic to who I was at the time yes did it have the biggest support from my label no did that matter to me at the time? No. Because I knew that the music was great. Yeah, it would have been great had they been more supportive, but it didn't, again, it didn't take away from the purpose of what that moment was for me personally. So no, they've been great. They've been amazing. And even now they're super supportive that like first time I'm talking about it, that I had an album that was done, ready to go. And I listened to it a couple months ago

and was like, this ain't it. And then I went back in the studio three days ago to kind of start again. And maybe I'll use some of the old songs. Maybe I won't. Maybe I'll rework some of the old songs maybe I won't maybe I'll rework them but there just was something that wasn't right and they're like we support you we love you we got you we see you we understand you I've been with them for almost 15 years what I've struggled to find is an internal team like people that are immediately around me

like an assistant a manager that kind of thing? Manager, yeah. Managers, assistant, no. Just a team. That's where I'm at right now. Like, you know, I just let go of my sixth manager two days ago. Yeah. No hard feelings. No great people amazing at what they do.

Just not right for me. And I know it's because there's something I'm doing wrong because I keep picking the wrong people. So I know I need to look inwards and go, what am I doing wrong here? Is it because I know I know what I want and I don't really say it because I don't like to cause waves in the ocean?

Kind of like a smooth sailing moment, but I also know what I want and know what I deserve. And it's taken me a long time to be confident in saying, like, I know I can really sing. But I've just never had a team that really get it, that, like, had the same passion as me and, like, live for, like, the moments and moments and like taking risks and not being afraid and like so like you know and I guess maybe I'm talking about it right now because

if someone that's meant to be for me in my life might see this because you know like I say all the time like people go what are you going to do now like have you got a new manager lined up and I'm like no I didn't let them go because I've secretly been meeting people. Like, that's not who I am. Like, one thing for sure is I'm loyal and like, I'm respectful. But like, when your manager is like a, it's almost like a marriage, you know, you go into a contract and you hand over a very big, important part of your life. You can't look for a new husband while you're still married. It doesn't work like that. And I have no idea who good managers are.

No idea. And I don't know if I ever will. I'm 34. I've been doing this a long time. But I also know that I've got so much more to do. And I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. And I know in my heart in my instinct I don't just trust my instinct I act on it and it was a big brave thing for me to do just to go guys

I love you but I know this ain't right I'm moving on what wasn't right about it outside of the passion you're looking for what is what is it you're looking for from that team that manager it's so funny because when someone goes what do you what are you looking for in a manager for me it's just a feeling I just like it's someone that I'm such a hard worker right and I'm very disciplined I'm very disciplined. I'm very professional. I can handle a lot of stuff by myself. And I think that exposes a lot of people to do one of two things, go, she's good, or I need to work harder. And a lot of people go, she's good. And I just want someone that can teach me about music,

can send me performances from Aretha that I've not seen, or, hey, have you heard this new music? Or have you read this book? Or like, you know what I was thinking would be amazing if we did this, like, okay, so you want to do this? I need the drive, the passion, like people that I can relate to, like the way they see the world and feel the world. And like, like I get told, and I'm so grateful, I get told all the time, you're one of the best singers in the world.

There's some singers down the street at church that are the best singers in the world. There's some singers down the street at church that are the best singers in the world that no one will ever hear other than God and the people that are in the church. But that doesn't mean anything, like if you're not doing anything with it. You know, and I just want a team of people that represent me even when I'm not in the room, you know? Have you seen what you're looking for elsewhere?

Do you know it exists? I don't even know. I don't even, I don't know. I know I look at other artists and go, I should be doing that. There's no reason that I shouldn't be there. I shouldn't be doing this. Or I know that the music that I make,

like I've always said this metaphor with my career, right? Is I feel like if my career was a shop, I feel like I sell ladders outside, but roses on the inside. So I feel like what I put out there isn't always what I actually sell. that isn't actually always me, that I feel like I'm convinced or, I mean, I'm always a little afraid to be a diva or to come across like I'm arrogant or this, that and the other. But like, I know the best moments of my career, point blank, have been when I have followed my instincts, acted on my own heart.

Like when I did the China TV show, everyone was like, why do you want to do a singing competition? I said, I just know this is what I need to do. You know, even the Rose album, like I know that the people that discovered that were who needed to discover it. And I just know like the only thing in life that is important is to just not trust your instincts but to act on

them be yourself and not be afraid to know that even if you're in a room full of people that if you know that this is going to work just don't be disheartened by everyone else's projection of their own fear that they can't deliver for you I guess you'd also rather fail at being yourself than succeed at being someone else as well right and I've succeeded at being someone else 100p that's 100% yeah I was figuring out 100p yeah just before you told me but like I love to write songs right and I can sing so I'll go in the studio and I can make music but sometimes I I'm like, I love this, I love these songs, but I wouldn't buy this album. I wouldn't, I wouldn't put this on and listen to it. And I'm grateful that I know I've been accepted into so many different spaces in the industry, like the musical theatre world and like the pop world, the R&B world,

the soul world. Like I'm so, I love music and I grew up around a lot of music and I grew up a lot around different cultures and races and walks of life. And I'm so, so happy that that was my foundation and that's what I am. And I also need management to represent that. I don't want to walk into rooms that everyone looks the same. You know, I'm tired of it. And I want to make music that makes everybody feel like they're welcome and make music that makes everyone feel accepted and seen and understood. And I need my team to reflect that. And I got to do a better job at making those decisions.

One of the reasons I ask is if you've seen it somewhere else. Because when you're an obsessed person person you're obsessed about your craft um i think we all and i'm speaking from my own experience here we all struggle when we don't feel like other people are meeting us there oh yeah you know what i mean and i see this with founders specifically in companies where they're they're just absolutely obsessed and all in on their dream. And then they look at their team who aren't at that standard, don't seem to care as much, aren't sending the Aretha tracks at 2am in the morning, aren't going above and beyond. And they're thinking, well, you must not be right.

You must not care. You must not want to be here. So there's a certain expectation management. No, for sure, 100%. And it's not that I'm saying i'm i expect them to be me i think it's just people that even want to talk about music yeah yeah you know like a lot of managers like when was the last time i went to see a show like at the end of the day to me that when you're a musician and you're in the industry i need a team of managers that are like in they're at the party they're not trying to get me an invite.

They have to be there and like come in, you know what I mean? It's like, so I just, I think that I don't know what it is and I don't have the answers and I don't know, I know what it is that I want. Sometimes I don't know how to say that until I'm experiencing that it's not what I want and then I'm like no this isn't right

but I know that it is also me and I know that I have to be more vocal on what it is that I want and what it is that I deserve and I just feel like I'm always taken for granted and I just I just, I just, I just want to sing

and like really be in the mix and work hard. Like the fire in my belly now is like, What do you mean by being in the mix? It's weird. When you've had success, like people always say to me, like, yeah, but you're Jessie J.

And I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? I haven't even been invited to the Brit since 2011. So what does it mean? I'm Jessie J. Like, what is my success to you? Because it's different to me, obviously. You know, and I think people go go and a lot of the time especially other artists they see that maybe you've had success in places that they haven't or that you've got something that they haven't they go yeah but why aren't you just content with

that you know and everyone's everybody's different with what they need to feel successful does comparison ever get the best of you in your industry? No. You've never looked at another artist and gone, maybe I should be doing more? No, I look at other artists and go, man, I wish I was more confident. I wish I was more like,

I see people work in a room and I'm so shy that I come across rude. When I'm in a room with a lot of people, I instantly go into that, no one likes me, No one's going to get my sense of humor. Like I have so many insecurities that I don't think I've even been consciously aware of until like the last year since COVID and like taking a break and then coming back to it. And I'm like, oh my God, like I don't think anyone in this room knows who I am. And I don't know why I'm here.

And I'm so awkward and I hate this. And what the hell am I doing? And I hate this gown I'm in. What am I doing here? Like I have those moments all the time. And the perception and reality is such a weird, like experience to have of what you think people think of you and then what they do think of you and it's I don't look at other artists and go god I wish I was

doing that I go I wish I was more sociable and more confident at working a room or talking to people because I know that what I have is because I have it and I what they have is because what work in a room or talking to people. Because I know that what I have is because I have it and what they have is because what they, you know, like I don't ever want to be anyone else. I don't want anyone else to ever be me. But no, comparison isn't the issue for me. It's frustration that I know I'm capable of doing the things that someone else might be doing in my own way.

But I don't know how to invite myself into the room. And I'm like, and they're like, oh my God, like, you want to come in? Come in. But it isn't always me going, hi, can I come in? Because I don't know how to do that without feeling like an absolute dickhead. So I just kind of go and hope that someone might go, maybe Jessie J wants to come in. And you want a manager that's going to say,

Jessie J needs to be in there. Or to go, go on, you can do it. Don't get in your head. I think that I can give off that I am grateful that I can sing and I'm grateful that I love to sing live. Like I love that I've never mimed and that's not who I am. I love that even if my voice is hoarse or whatever, I always put myself in the exposure firing line, right?

What I love and hate about myself is that I can be put through the most ridiculous experience like throughout the day I could literally be set on fire and I could probably still sing and I hate that because it means that people go she'll be fine whatever the situation and I think that's a big part of it is that I've trained myself to be good in situations where I haven't had people haven't haven't had to let people think that they need to level up for me to deliver like that's what has to change because what's going on in here and what's coming out and what people are seeing can be two very different things. And I'm not connecting those dots for anybody really but myself,

because it's only going to make me have more of an enjoyable experience. Those four years that you referenced that you, I don't know how to describe it. Disappeared. Disappeared, let's say. Not disappeared, but I worked, but I wasn't like... What was going on when you disappeared? Oh my God, what was going on when you disappeared oh my god what was going on

I did The Voice because I wanted to kind of stay in the in the vibe I did The China Show yeah The China TV Show

which was one of my favourite things I've ever done billions watching 1.2 billion people watched the final and I bit my tongue before I went out and sang Whitney

because I was so stressed and there was just blood in my mouth and you didn't shit yourself I'll trust me I'm very close I have shit myself on stage before

I know that's why I'm saying it so bad so bad so bad fingers in ears is there a pressure in that four years

where people are saying why isn't she giving us an album well yeah there's always pressure yeah and it took me a long time to realise that I can't why isn't she giving us an album? Well, yeah, there's always pressure. Yeah. And it took me a long time to realise that I can't,

you can't squeeze from the lemons. You've got to nurture the roots a little bit. You know what I mean? You can't just keep asking the lemons to grow and there's no, it's not been potted in the ground. And I just needed to be regrounded. I just was like,

I wrote the whole first album. Second album, I wrote pretty much the whole thing by a couple songs. The third album, I wrote two songs. And when you listen to it, I wrote two acoustic songs, Get Away and You Don't Really Know Me. And everything else was burning up, bang, bang, didn't write any of them. Loved them, but it wasn't where I was. And I was exhausted and I was like, just, I'll sing whatever you want. And I was so grateful for the success of Masterpiece, Burning Up, Bang Bang in the US, but it was nowhere near where I was mentally. And trying to match those two things was my, probably my most important thing that I could have done. So when that album ended, and then obviously I went for the first, my first kind of big,

just my first big breakup. It wasn't even that for my first kind of big, just my first big breakup. It wasn't even that it was public. It was just like my first big breakup that people knew about. Lost both my grandparents. I remember when I lost my granddad, I had to perform in Central Park right after. And I was really close to my granddad. He was a professional jazz drummer. I traveled the world.

We had the same heart problem. Just, you know, just very much he understood the industry and would always kind of give me advice and just not being able to grieve and like all of those things and was just going to go and I need to take a second to like process my life like I haven't stopped since everything took off um and then I went for a moment where I was like I'm done with music I'm out really oh yeah sat with my label was like drop me don't want to do this anymore I can't do it I'm emotionally exhausted didn't know how to just I just didn't know how to write songs anymore I was just like what do I even want to sing about? When was this?

2016. So after you lost your grandparents and... Yeah, 2016. And then I had to do this campaign because I needed money, honestly. Like I was like, I need to still make money to be famous. Like you've got to still be protected and I have to like wean myself off of this lifestyle if I'm going to not do this anymore and I got offered to do a campaign with Make Up Forever which I've

always wanted to do anyway because I love the brand and I said I'd love to do it and they're like we want an original song and I was like I don't want to do an original song because if I do an original song people think I'm bringing an album and it's a single and I was like I'll do a cover so I met this guy called Kemper and we was in the studio and he was like yo man like I got some tracks and I was like no tracks don't play me anything I don't want to I don't want to do this no more he's like come on let me just play you something and I was like no no no I'm good seriously please don't I was like aunt, I just need to do this. Get the check, go home.

Don't make me emotional. Don't, you know it's there. Don't pull out that part of me. Like, I don't want to. I was trying to pretend that I was something different to what I was. And he played me this beat and he was like, I'm going to go smoke. I'll be back in five minutes.

And I was literally, I was just sitting there and he played me this track. And I was like, sitting there and the engineer was just like, I'm behind the engineer and I was just sitting there and he played me this track and I was like, sitting there and the engineer was just like, I'm behind the engineer and I just start typing on my laptop. And the engineer's like, you want me to turn this off? And I was like, no, no, no, it's all right, keep it on. And I'm like, can I just jump in the booth real quick? And I wrote this song called Think About That,

which became the first single off the Rose album. And I remember Camper coming in going, I don't know who you think you are, and I wrote this song called Think About That, which became the first single off the Rose album. And I remember Camper coming in going, I don't know who you think you are, but you can't stop writing songs. Like, this is what you do. And I think I'd realised that really up until that point, a lot of my successful music had been this kind of like,

everything's great, doesn't mean anything. And I was like, that's what people want. And I don't know how to deliver that all the time when I can deliver it. And I do write songs like that now because I'm not ignoring the pain. So I'm writing about both. So they get both as opposed to me ignoring all the good, like ignoring all the bad stuff.

So that manifests into everything. And then that's all I want to write about you know and so I just started to write and then I wrote queen and then I wrote someone's lady on the spot and then I wrote this and I wrote that and I kind of had this album I was like what do I do now okay you know and when I went on that tour I fired my managers during that tour just firing managers left right and center that's just been become a hobby of mine And when I went on that tour, I fired my managers during that tour. Just firing managers left, right and center. That's just become a hobby of mine.

Can you imagine how insecure the seventh manager is going to be? Or they're not, you know? Thing is, I'm such a loyal person. If you look at everyone in my life, my production, my tour manager, my hair and makeup, 10 years deep. Like, I love my people. But I also need you to show me that you really understand how valuable I am, as I would to you. You know,

like, I can't, I know what, it's like dating. Managers is like dating. You know, and I do believe that, like, such an important role doesn't always just fall into your lap and it's right. And I honestly think that most like, such an important role doesn't always just fall into your lap and it's right. And I honestly think that most artists will admit that they ain't happy with their management. Most people in the industry would admit that they're not happy with their agent or their management. There's always something else they could be doing. And, like, when you voice what you needed

and it still doesn't change and then you voice it again and it still doesn't change and then you go, yeah, you know what? I actually think I'd enjoy this more if I didn't have this especially when you're making money off not doing much you know I'd rather be by myself for a second and it'd be a bit chaotic and me learn and like go right what do I need what do I want what do I need what do want? That's one of the, two of the questions that I think a lot of people manage to get clarity on during. Terms of, yeah,

moments of turmoil. The pandemic. Yeah. Exactly. What was that to you, that whole two years? Oh, the pandemic was

probably the worst and most beautiful thing that I think's happened to the world. Because when else would we all have to stop? And not just stop and be like, oh, I'm going to keep going to work and like, you know, just really take the weekend off.

Like, stop. Like, not have our clutches of our hobbies, not have our clutches of our friends and family that we may see or visit or talk to, but really go inwards and have no escape from it. If I was a fly on the wall in your, wherever you were living during the pandemic, what would I have observed?

I mellowed a lot in the pandemic. I let go of a lot of things that I held on to as like clutches to kind of be able to do my job like I'm a very organized person and um I realized how much time I wasted on things that really didn't help me like having certain amount of this or being overly prepared I'm a very overly prepared person. I cooked a lot. And I wrote an album that's really good, but I just don't know if I really love it. Why? I don't know who the audience is.

When I listen to the songs, I don't see the people that are listening to it with me and I have to be able to see that how did that happen if you write something I'm guessing usually you write it from a place of your own pain or whatever yeah so there's going to be people out there feeling the same human experience music reflects where you're at, right? Where it should. And in that time, I think it was a very anxious, everyone kind of wanting to like falsify this, like we're good, right? We're okay. Like we're okay.

We're good. We're going to be fine. And like, you can feel that in the music. It just feels a bit like too much. And I think that what I think people are craving more than ever right now is just like real. Like, and I also know what I'm good at.

And I listen to it and go, there's like about five or six artists that I can imagine doing this. I want to make music people only know that I can do. And it ain't that. So, and it might be that I might come full circle and go you know what I was wrong joke took three years but we're here but I'll get there you know there's no right or wrong answers I don't believe that anything we do in life is wrong or

right I just think we've got to want to make a decision and then we'll learn from either which way we went. Has your grief over the last year impacted your perspective on that piece of work? Yes. Yeah. I feel like my grief is here right now. Like it just comes up and it comes out my eyes or it comes out in my songs. But it feels like it has a place

to live in my life now, which is why I probably feel so vulnerable at the moment because as I said to you like losing having a miscarriage and losing the baby and then most recently losing Jamal Edwards when you don't just have one person that you associate with grief, but you have a handful of people that you realize that no one else that you have in your life gives you what they gave you. And you realize that you have to find that for yourself. Like that's the hardest part of grief for me that I'm experiencing right now. Like, I don't even, it's like, even me crying like this, like, I can't stop it. Like, they're not tears where I'm like, you know, when you can't not cry. Like I'm not even trying to cry. It's just like it's here and it just comes up.

It puts everything in perspective that all the things that we worry about and all the things that we are concerned about nothing matters if someone just loses the like when you watch someone I don't know if you knew Jamal you did his parents called me yesterday oh I love Brenda um he was um I'd spoken to him um a few, a few weeks before he passed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was, when I was 18, and this is pinned to the top of my Twitter, he was my, the evidence that I could be successful. So I would stalk him around Skype when he was on Skype and I'd try and get him to speak to me.

Yeah. It's crazy how much time he made for everyone. I can't, he was like so special. Like, you know, when someone passes, you always want to remind everybody of like the good that they were, but he was like in another league of, I can't explain it. Like when I was standing, you know, at his funeral and just looking around and the impact that he made so one-on-one with everyone he knew, because he never said no.

He always had the time. And I know how much he wanted to live life, you know, and how unfair it feels that of all people that that could have happened to, that it happened to him, I know that his passing has enabled me to make the decisions that I'm making in my life right now and my career with more strength and belief in myself like Jamal was someone that I spoke to when I didn't want to do this anymore when I didn't feel like you know being told you're a great singer was enough,

like it often wasn't, you know, and I would phone him and he would just remind me of, I mean, I met when I was 17, just remind me of the bigger picture and just his energy and the fact that he talked himself into every room and then talked about everyone else. You know, I just... You felt his power when the world found out he had gone. Everybody was sad, even people that didn't know him because his

legacy that's been a word that's been used a lot with him it's funny because the biggest legacy that I think he however many businesses he started and things he invested in and platforms he created to elevate everyone else, it was the feeling that he gave people to me that was his legacy. And like, that's why I miss the most. And when I sang at his homecoming and everyone was like, how did you do that?

I said, because I was singing to him. I was singing for him. It wasn't a performance. You know, I know that he would have loved that. I just hear him going, jeez, you know, like, come on. You wearing vegan shoes and that? But I think that the biggest thing that you learn when you lose someone so young that you love and admire so much is that life is too short to sit anywhere other than where you're supposed to be. And if you're sitting at a table where you don't feel like you're being fed,

even if you're bringing a plate of food, you politely just leave, you know? And I know that inspired me to demand more from myself and from other people in my career. You know, me and him had so many plans and projects that we were doing together, as I'm sure you guys were was supposed to receive from him for those things, I have to find within myself. So, because no one will ever be that. So, sorry, I'm so crying right now. Like, I'm such an emotional person and I really live from feeling. And I'm not afraid anymore to be vulnerable.

And I think that the first line of change with anything through grief or anything like that is talking about how you feel and I think that I'm now in the next few months aware that I'm going to then start actioning the change that I'm speaking about within myself the energy around me what I want my career to look like what I want my music to feel like what I want the people to be around me to feel like you know I love to work hard, but I also like people around me to have a life. I was, when you, you know, when I was rereading through the process you went through with your miscarriage. Yeah. You posted about it very soon after

and you talked about how, and then you deleted the post, right? Or you archived it or something? Archived it, yeah. In a moment of being human I was just like you know what it was it was a moment where I actually had it up and I wasn't in a space to keep posting but I was tired of going back to my page and that being the thing that people saw because I wasn't in that space, but I wasn't in a, hi guys, I'm going to sing you a song space or like a random caption and a picture of me

just in and out, you know? So I just was like, I'm not as sad as that, but I'm not anywhere near, say, the few posts before it yet. So let me just archive it and just kind of go back to zero. I just can't imagine as a you know i've had people who've sat here and talked to me about miscarriages and the experience especially the the attempt in a family to try and create life and struggling and yeah you know so seeing that so closely and the experience you shared and the way you shared it and even listening to you

talk about going and having you know you had a suspicion that something was wrong and yeah and I had two scans in the same day and within the first scan and the second scan the baby had passed and it was it was such a I mean the whole experience was so spiritual for me because obviously I'd been told it wasn't going to be easy for me to get um to have children realistically, like I'm still discovering that now. I think that any woman can say that. The amount of women that are told that and then they have children, you know, and a lot of it's mental, you know, and where our bodies are at.

And obviously when I was going through all that pain and discomfort was when my life was in complete utter chaos with my career and my diet and everything, you know, like your mind, your body's so powerful. And as I've gotten older and my life has, I've kind of been able to find tranquility in the chaos and, you know, like just my pain is so much better and I'm not on any medication anymore. And, you know, so when I fell pregnant, it wasn't, I know that I know that getting pregnant, I don't think would be the issue for me. It would be staying pregnant. And so when I fell pregnant, I was so overwhelmed with like, your whole life just kind of instantly changes. You feel like

you're carrying the most precious cargo, even though it's the size of like a bean sprout. You're literally just like, and it's a secret, and I'm such an open person. And it was such a new experience for me to go through something that so many people could relate to, but not want to tell anyone, but want to tell everybody. But no, I shouldn't, just in case.

But then it's like, but it's also something that so many people have gone through. So it wasn't like a, you know, and I was just like, what do I do? And then when I booked these shows, obviously I'd booked them, I think I'd booked them before I even knew. And then when I decided to do that first show I remember the day before I found out the baby had passed I was with a friend of mine I was like how am I going to do this show and not tell everybody tell everyone you're pregnant yeah

and announce it yeah and just say like because I was like so sick you know I was like people are going to know you know it's so I just I just remember kind of landing in LA and I was like, people are going to know, you know, it's, so I just, I just remember kind of landing in LA and I was by myself, you know, I live in LA by myself and I have friends and I don't have any family here, but like I have my team. Um, well I did have my team until I fired everybody. No, it sounds so savage. It's not. It's so amicable and everything's fine. But no, I mean, I do have a lot of team, you know. A lot of them are in the UK still. And I do have people here.

But like I have friends here. And I remember I got here and I was very sick. And I was just like, right, I'm going to start working out. And eating good and like getting on a routine. And like I have my house and I'm in the sun. And then I woke up one morning and I was like, oh, I don't feel right. I still had very intense nausea. I just knew something wasn't the same. And I called a doctor because I hadn't actually discovered

who I was going to have as my doctor yet because it was still quite early. And I'd gone to see my doctor in London because I was there when I found out and I and I went to the doctors and that dreadful silence when you first have a scan and they kind of don't say anything and I was like just tell me the truth what's going on and she said your baby's heartbeat is very low um and there's this, like, ring. And I was like, well, what does that mean? And she said, it often means that the baby will have some sort of disability or deformity. And I said, okay. And she said, you know, we can have you toe and take blood

today and then in a couple of days and just to see if your hormone levels are moving to see if the baby's still growing. But the baby's heartbeat is very weak. And I was like, but it's still there. And she's like, if the baby's still growing. But the baby's heartbeat is very weak. And I was like, but it's still there. And she's like, yeah, it's still there. And that's when I went onto the street and I cried and the man came up to me and said, you know,

this is happening because you're supposed to talk about this. You're supposed to help other people. And instead of going to get bloods, I got in my car and I said, I'm going to go and get a second opinion. I didn't go and get the bloods ever. And I phoned around some friends and no one was available and everyone was at work. And I ended up being able to go and see another doctor very quickly. And he only had about 10 minutes before he had to go into a surgery. And so I went doctor very quickly and he only had about 10 minutes before he had to go into a surgery and so I went in very quickly and he did another scan and he said I'm really sorry there's no heartbeat like it's that was about within about three four hours of the first one

and I remember going into the car park and getting in the car and one of the first people I spoke to was someone on my team. And obviously they were supportive and understanding, but one of the first things I was asked was, well, what do you want to do about the show tomorrow? And even though I understood it, at the time I don't think I realised that that actually really shifted the way I processed the experience. You know, I got home and I kind of was focused on

how am I going to get through tomorrow's show more than what is happening. Like I'm now, sorry if you can hear my stomach, I'm really hungry. It's like, I need this. No, I remember just going home and kind of not processing it. And I had a friend come over and then the next day I went straight into glam. I did the sound check. And I got on stage and I posted that post.

I was by myself. I had no one advising me. My mom, my sister wasn't there to go, no, don't share this with the world. Like make it real for you first. And I posted it because I didn't have anyone there to break on. I didn't have anyone to,

I don't know, flipping cry again. I didn't have anyone to just fall apart on and just, and that's what I needed. That's what I wanted, you know? And so I did the show. The saddest point of that whole experience for me, other than the painful part of it, which I'm, it breaks my heart that so many women have gone through it.

Even women I know that I didn't know and I hated that I didn't understand. I couldn't support them in the way they needed me to because I didn't know. It's such a painful, physical painful, emotional painful experience that you almost don't want to talk about it because you need people to just to see it, to know. But it's such a trip, you know, and obviously everyone's experience is different because, you know, the way the baby passes

or it's all different for everybody. And so I remember the hardest part for me was, wasn't doing the show. The show was actually kind of a weird trippy dream and I was actually just really grateful that I wasn't by myself. And that loads of people that I love turned up and came and, you know, at the show. It was when I got in the car after the show, you know, by myself. And I got home and I opened my front door and I closed the door and I fell to my knees

and that was the worst moment of the whole experience was me realizing that other than my career being a mother and having a child has been the biggest excitement of my life like I've always been super maternal. I love children. Like it's just always been something that I can't even explain. People go like, you know, do you want to be a mom? It's just something that I think that you're, you gravitate towards or you kind of learn to gravitate towards. But I felt like I'd been given everything I've ever wanted and then someone had gone but you can't have it but it was still there you know I was still and I would sing to it every night and

you know and so when I got home that night and I laid there I've never felt so lonely in my life and the empath in me was like how have so many people experienced this? Like, it's just more than once, like numerous times. And I just remember laying there, knowing that it was still there, but it wasn't there. You know, and that went on for like, because, you know, it was a long time. It was over a week that I had to then go and do it in a non-natural way. And it just...

It was just the saddest thing. But at the same time, I knew that the reason it happened was because I wasn't supposed to do it alone. And I stand by that now. I knew that as soon as I found out that the baby had gone, I phoned my mum and I said, I know that I'm not supposed to do this by myself.

Like, I know that I'm supposed to find someone that wants this as much as I do. And it's such a, honestly, it's a weird one to talk about because it's such a head trip because you're grieving not so much, even so much the baby, whatever time you lose a baby, you know. I can't even imagine, like, women having stillborns and I just can't even fathom that and I it you're grieving the life that you imagined like that you prepared in your mind as well um it's almost a bit like you know when you're really this is a really you know, when you're really... This is a really stupid metaphor, but when you're really excited for a holiday and then it gets cancelled and you kind of go, yeah, it's okay, I don't mind.

But inside you're like, I just bought all these outfits and I got this and I've got that. It was like that times a million. And... But I always will look for the silver lining in any moment of pain and sadness. And... for the silver lining in any moment of pain and sadness. And I'm grateful that I got to experience being pregnant and I'm grateful that I got to experience that my body can do it,

not even everyone can do it, you know. And it's honestly brought me to some of the happiest moments that I've felt um because it's enabled it's literally given it's opened the door for me to love myself deeper so I'm still processing the whole thing and I still have moments of intense sadness and grief but I also have moments of excitement knowing that I won't do it alone the other thing that I when when I sent you that voice note I think it was around the time when you'd done a big post about Dave yeah and that was so you're really bringing out the big guns today yeah the uh we're really going to talk about some stuff well this is this is the perspective I

was looking from from the outside in and what you had been going through in that that moment and you were being very open open with the journey yeah and within all of these unimaginable instances you know seeing things that played out in your your life it was really as someone that's compelled to understand humans and grief and their emotions and psychology in the hope that it might help me yeah you know i was blown away by your gratitude even in the wake of your miscarriage saying things like i'm so happy i had morning sickness yeah and got to experience it the more sick i got the happier i was because i knew the baby was healthy you'll never hear me complain if i'm pregnant and then the day you did a post about Dave who was your security guard and even that made me think about people that I've been with me for you know

for a long time and been right by my side through the storm yeah before the storm and um and that's that's more grief that's more yeah more life lessons that we don't want to have to learn, right? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because up until Dave passing, I've lost people that I know of, you know, but like real close people. Like he was one of the first. And the hardest part about, for me me like losing someone like that and I speak broadly for anybody that's lost someone is when you've had experiences that no one else knows about so when you lose somebody that he woke me up every morning and was the last person I'd see close my hotel room door before I went to sleep,

and would put on the Do Not Disturb and be like, right, seen the morning boss for years and years and years and years and years through me trashing a hotel room in Australia when I lost my mind to me fancying this guy that he told me not today, or having the best success of a song, or selling out a show, or not selling out a show, having to cancel the show. Or he was the person that came to visit me, the first person that came to visit me when I was just having my operation,

when I was told I couldn't have kids. Like, he was my guy. Like, he was my big brother. Like, when there was turbulence, he held my hand for nine hours on the plane. Like, when you've gone through those experiences, but you know you can only grieve alone because no one else has experienced that those moments with you like that's that was what was the hardest thing for me is like no one else was a part of really our thing because it was just me

and him like he's my security. Like, he was just, I would make him get on the roller coaster. He'd be like, no, no, just watch. I'm like, come on. I would make it and he was so big and he would just sit next to me and be like, and I'd be like, I know you like it. And like, there was a part of him that I know I only got to see. You know, it's an unusual experience to be pushed together

with someone that closely for so long. And to experience theme parks and travelling and aeroplanes and delays and highs and lows. And we would, after every show, one of my things that I like to do, which I don't often do anymore now because it was a how thing, was go for a walk after the show. Whether it was 2am, it was raining, get me outside, I need some air, I need to come back down to earth,

I need my ringing in my ears to go, I need to, like, have a packet of crisps or a sandwich, I just need to, like... And usually no-one would be out because it would be late. So I could walk around, like, I'd be in the rain, soaking wet, and be like, you're going to get sick. And I'd be like, germs make you sick. Rain doesn't make you sick.

You know, so like we would have these conversations and obviously I knew him and I knew his own battle with his own sadness and his own... When you tour for a living, when you're on tour, you want to be at home and when you're at home, you want to be on tour. And there's this like push and pull of like, where do I belong? Like, I want to keep moving, but I crave stillness.

But when I'm at home, it's too still. And when I'm on, you know, when you're on tour, it's too much moving and you crave stillness. And then when you're still, it's like, I need to move. You know, so I knew so much about him and he knew so much about me. And I protected him as much as I could as he protected me um so yeah I mean oh like one of the most important things for me now

and has always been that because of my dad too is men need to talk like whenever I've got into a relationship I'm so adamant on my partner having their own life and their own group of friends that they hang out with like that they talk to and that they do the things that they enjoy and like I don't want my life to become your life or to feel like we have to be intertwined all the time. Like women have grown up with blogs and magazines and books and this, that, and the other. And that's one of the things I loved about you. And this is why I said yes to talking to you because men don't talk enough about how they feel, point blank, you know, and almost are raised to go, be respectful to women, you know,

it's not be respectful to yourself, you know, and I watched people react to Dave, who was this big six foot five tattooed, bald guy going, oh, you're going to beat me up? Before they'd even spoken to him. And me going, him beat you up? Like he'd catch a fly in a cup and put it outside, you know. And it's crazy because the tears between Dave and Jamal and even the baby, like the things that those people gave me in my life are things that I know I have to find in myself like my anxiety comes a lot from my fear of

not being safe and Dave gave me that and Jamal always gave me self-belief, which is like my biggest anxieties are self-belief and my fear. And so losing those two people in my life, and then obviously the baby was just such a huge part of who I want to be in my life and what I want to give to my children one day. I think that's why the grief is so present right now because I'm in the process of trying to give myself the things that they gave me.

Yeah, they're very special guys. And Dave was... hard work. Hard work. Hilarious. Took no bullshit. And had my back, 100%. And I've not had anyone like that since. You know?

In the photos, you both look like jokers. Oh my God, he was the biggest joker, the biggest clown. He would send me shit while I was sitting in the voice chair to try and make me laugh. And like, we just had all these jokes. And we lived in this house in Australia together

and it was whale season so we would watch whales like we would sit and have dinner and then we would sit when we bought binoculars and we would sit and watch like the sea and see if we could find whales and so it became this thing that every time we'd be in the middle of a conversation we were like whale and then we'd all run to the window so it became that thing for years that like if there was an awkward moment or one of us wanted to leave somewhere we would say well that was like our code thing yeah random and then he'd come up with an excuse for yeah yeah yeah yeah or we'd just laugh because we'd be like if someone said something stupid he'd be like wow like and it was stupid, he'd be like, wow. And it was just like, he just got me, you know? And it's very hard to find people like that.

And I do believe that you're right when you said about expectation. I think that when you've experienced, I've had a handful of people in my career that have loved me and seen me and heard me and felt me and understood me and respected me and elevated me consistently that are still here with me or aren't anymore for whatever reasons, whether they've moved on or they've passed away.

And I think it's hard that when you've experienced that to want anything it's weird like I feel sometimes feel safer talking to Dave this probably makes me sound crazy at an event and imagining him there than I do with another security guard. And I know that may not make any sense to anyone,

but I just imagine him there and I feel safe and I feel calm. So yeah, he's definitely given me a gift that I don't think he even ever knew he did. I don't think he realised how special he was to me. Which I hate. I hate. And I wish I could have protected him from himself like he protected me from myself.

That's the bit that hurts me the most. But I know he would want me to live my life as hard as I could you know which is why I do try and make decisions that I know only propel me to a happier and more peaceful and secure environment for myself and my future family and he's so clearly still with you oh every day same with Jamal and the baby, all of them. What are you like with letting people in? Having been through a lot of loss and these various situations you've been through in your life, do you let people in easily? Because one would assume from some of your characteristics,

the openness, the vulnerability, that you had people could just stride right in. It's probably something I'm working on all the time is that I do let people in. I definitely give people more than they give me most of the time, you know? But I also think that's my nature. Like I'm a hostess. I'm a very like a caregiver.

Like I like to cook and entertain and like care for people and look after people. And I think there's a thin line of people presuming that I have someone else that's going to do that for me. And then also people that isn't just there, that's not their love language. But also I'm very guarded.

And I think that definitely in the last few years I've got way more closed in... I wouldn't say that I have a fear of like, I'm funny about people letting people in. I think I let people in, but maybe not to the real, real me. There's only a few people that really know how much my brain is always working. Who are those people?

I have like five people, like childhood best friends. My parents are definitely people that I've, we've gone through our, you know, as you do with your parents. You know, we carry so much of our parents, good and bad, you know? And I think that all of us know that my dad, I remember me and my dad when the tables turned and I had to go to him. Do you want to look at yourself? Like, I love you, but, you know,

I carry some of your traits that I don't like, that I'm trying to heal and I'm sitting with you and I can see you doing them. And it's irking me and triggering me and we need to talk about it. And I'm grateful that I have people that are open to challenging me as much as I am challenging them.

But I don't have that many people that I trust wholeheartedly. I don't, but I don't need that many. And I trust wholeheartedly. I don't. But I don't need that many. And I'm grateful that I even have one because some people don't even have one. And they're the people that I cry for too because I think about how lonely they must be.

Look at my life. I'm so lucky and so grateful for everything I have. And I know that we've sat and spoken at probably the most worst parts of my life in the most worst moments but I also live a life of absolute peace and happiness that I couldn't even fathom someone would tell me that this is what was my life was going to look like you know I'm beyond grateful what about love then love love so funny because I wrote a book when I was how old was I when I wrote bloody autobiography at 12 you know you get a book

deal and you're like okay and when I look back at it now it's like there's a whole section of like I like ice cream and I'm just like who read this um and it's actually called nice to meet you it's like my career so far in like 2012 and it'd be like six months in but I remember obviously with regards to like me talking about relationships from the beginning and the impact that I had positively and negatively to myself my my relationships, my career, how I hurt people, how people hurt me. I wrote this big chapter on love and personal love and then I deleted it all and just put a little thing of I need to keep something personal and protected

because if I talk about everything so openly all the time, it's allowing opinions and poison to seep in that really do nothing for it, but can actually do something to it. And I think that my last public relationship... Which one was that? Well, it wasn't even that i wanted to wanted it to be public but the person was public no it wasn't even that that was the one before the last one okay it was that i was

frustrated that you have to almost fame is weird because even though people go people choose personally not to post or not to speak or not to be seen, you can't live a normal relationship if you aren't seen. So even if I don't post a relationship, these people will hide in bushes until they get a picture and then you don't want them to have the control

of what they say it is. I know what you're talking about now. You know what I'm saying? So this is why you put... Yes. So obviously I was in a very, very public relationship and it was a very different experience for me. Good, bad, ugly.

It was actually very interesting because I felt like I was experiencing what my exes had felt like being I was I was them and he was me right okay he was on a whole nother level of fame and and going through a very personal time publicly and I was he was one of the biggest actors that he's yeah yeah yeah yes yeah yeah yeah and he's an incredible father and was going through a really personal traumatic time and it was just a lot of

emotional collisions you know of like both of our lives at the same time and we got on really well but again that same thing is that when you're famous you can go for dinner on a date. Like how many dates have you been on where you would never see them again?

Right? But you get photographed and you're both famous and they put it on the internet and go, exclusive. And you're like, and that wasn't what happened. But you know, we got seen and it kind of propelled into something probably more than maybe it was also because of what was going on in his own life and then there was this

comparison and it was just it was so many things that I always say that there's a lot of things that fame control that you can't control and there's a lot of things in this life that we ask for. And then there's some things that we don't, but happen anyway. And so that whole experience definitely made me go, I just need more privacy and I need to have something that isn't always me talking about it and like being open

because even if people really understand it everyone just everybody slows down at the car crash very rarely do people get out and help and now people don't just slow down now people slow down and they film they zoom in they comment they send to somebody else they will pretend something else happened that was there that wasn't like that's what it is now right so then when I met someone in the pandemic and who wasn't famous and I was very protective of that when then when we did get seen I was like I don't want to talk about it like and we were together for like dating for maybe a month and then obviously it was put out everywhere on this one picture and I was, you know, my frustration of like the way they worded all of it.

And I just was like, no, this isn't what it is. Like if you want to, I don't, I hate that the press can control the narrative. I hate that. But I also get it. But it doesn't mean that you sometimes don't just go, ugh, you know, like. And you did a post basically saying,

I want to control the narrative myself. Yeah, exactly. And it wasn't me going like, we're going to get married and we're going to do this. It was just like, this is what it is. This is who it is. And da, da, da, da, and piss off. Like just, and then they did piss off to some degree.

You know, it was like, okay. And then all the, like the picture they posted of me and I laughed about it I looked like an old man that owned a boat that was wearing a wig like it was so bad and I was just like really guys this is the picture you're gonna use of both of us and like it was just terrible but there's that thin line of like fuck everybody I'm gonna live the life I want to live. And I'm going to experience love. Like my mom says to me, fall in love as many times as you can. It will stick or it won't. How many times have you been properly in love? Once. Because I can actually see my life with that person. And I've never had that before.

Sounds recent. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it isn't. Who knows? Who knows? We might never know. And I may, like, and I may never know.

Yeah. Like, I just feel like love is a constant moving experience. And I think that when you meet new people, you always want to dumb down what you've experienced because you don't want to make them feel bad. But the truth is, all we're ever doing is going, is this love? Do you want to be with me? Are we going to get married?

Like, can we live together? Like, would you take a bullet for me? Do I really want to meet your parents? Yeah. It's a constant. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot yeah it's a lot and I think that I've been in relationships where in the process of me working out if it's what I want or not what I want

the press are giving the narrative that it's exactly what I want and it is going to happen and it's this and it's that and I'm like we may never have been official or we were or we may have been engaged or we may have like just been or we may have, like, just been mates. The amount of times I've been in relationships with my friends that I've just gone to dinner with, you know, the amount of times that people have said, look, I've been pregnant, little do they know. Obviously now it doesn't happen.

And I think if the press did say that now, I think that I would probably feel confident to say something because I see them do it to so many women without knowing what they're internally going through. I constantly ride the line between not giving a fuck and wanting to protect it to every little part of me. Because I would be lying if I didn't say that what other people think or say or constantly believe doesn't bother me.

When you walked in, you said, I asked you what's front of mind and you said, I'm thinking about like the next chapter of Jessie J and my life. What is that next chapter as we look forward? Acting on my instincts, making music that I love, making music that feels like it speaks to myself as much as it speaks to other people, finding a team of people that have the same passion as me and giving my personal life as much nurturing as my career and acting yeah I'm acting right now

you said you I know that acting comedy I really want to do comedy I really want to do stand up I mean me sitting here crying for the last three hours isn't giving that people that impression but knock knock um I yeah I definitely want to do acting at some point like the West End stuff I mean I yeah I mean right now I'm in the process of like trying to create a one-woman show right um which is what Jamal was helping me with um which is a combination of the things that I love the most, which is therapy and talking and honesty and emotions and standing in the middle of them and feeling the storm and the joy and the sunshine and the rain and all of it. Singing and singing, when I mean singing, singing as hard as I can,

as loud and high and as soft and as low and everything as I can and making people laugh. You know, and combining those three things. Don't know what it looks like. Have an idea, but you know, life does this. Yeah. And preparing my body to try again to be a parent, you know, at some point in the next few years, for sure.

Thank you. Thank you. Are you going to write notes about me in your book now? No, actually, this is part of a tradition we have here where the last guest, who you'll never know who they are, writes a question for the next guest, and then that just keeps going. Oh, I love that.

It's like all the guests are actually speaking to each other, but they just don't know who they're talking to. So what are you clear about now that one year ago you didn't know? All my dreams, personally and professionally, are able to happen with people by my side. And I don't have to do everything by myself. I think that's the biggest thing for me is I'm a very independent, I can do it, I don't need help, I don't need support person, that's bullshit. Like I need people around me that

want to do what I want to do and I enjoy being a team player and I don't think that was clear to me a year ago well Jesse thank you thank you for the conversation you know as I said to you before we started recording there was a reason why I wanted to speak to you and it's for all the reasons that you know I've discovered today you've been through so much but on the other side of that is tremendous wisdom and the willingness to share it with people who you've seen from even the way you've shared your story and the impact you've had when you do those acoustic sets.

What happens to the audience when you start talking about that? And you can see the resonance, right? I'm grateful to, as I said, the biggest thing for me is never to think that I've had it any worse than anyone else because I talk about it. It's knowing that I'm giving someone space that may not be able to find that for themselves to grieve or to feel something that they need to feel yeah and the other tremendous part of my admiration to you comes from this this watching you realize that the only way

to live is if you're emotionally in alignment with what you're doing and it's making you feel good and that really is the guiding force of our lives you know english people say you know trust your gut yeah literally it's your second brain trust your gut you know like and don't just trust your instincts act on them like if something doesn't feel right it's because it's not and then the other part the third part is your talent which is hey yeah like that i was thinking more the whitney thing i'm trying to but but you are just like i know that i'm blowing smoke a brass but you are different like when i listen to you so i don't so i'll be honest with you i don't smoke a brass but you are different like when I listen to your music I don't so I'll be honest with you I don't listen to loads of um music in your I would say in your genre but

you're not really in one genre but you know what you mean but you and um maybe one other artist can get me like and that's I think a credit to your talent and also what what's behind the music you can feel it with certain people and when I was doing the research for this episode I got like I'm like because I'd get two hours into listening to one of you listening to the rose album or something else like fuck I need to read and then I'd play another song and get sucked back into it emotionally and it was taking me to places and for me that's what like really good artists do they take me to places and take me to that place and liberate me from whatever was there and that's what you do and so thank you wherever you're at in your life yeah you've got that thank you you know no one can ever take that you've got

it yeah and few have so thank you for that gift and thank you for sharing all of it with the world thank you appreciate that so much