The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Jim Chapman: Overcoming Failure Anxiety, Finding Love & Life-Changing Therapy

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

On this weeks podcast, we have Jim Chapman. You may know him from Youtube, Instagram and dare I say it... the ex husband of another high profile Youtube star. You will hear Jim speaking about his own ...truth, separate from the media headlines. This is Jim Chapman like you have never heard him - he actually shocked me with his honesty in this raw and unfiltered podcast.  Jim Chapman is a British Celebrity, YouTuber, presenter, model, writer and soon to be father with over 6 million loyal followers across all social media platforms. Jim along with his peers helped shape social media into what it is today. In this podcast, Jim speaks openly about topics he has not yet discussed. This is a VERY intimate podcast, which will make you smile, laugh and even shock you. Jim talks about his personal experiences, trauma from his childhood, which most of us could never imagine and how this will shape him as a first-time father. We also talk about the curse of over thinking, love, break-ups, his new projects and... those rumours! Follow Jim: YouTube - www.youtube.com/jimchapman Instagram - https://instagram.com/JimChapman Twitter - https://twitter.com/jimchapman Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio.
Starting point is 00:00:24 And thirdly to Amazon Music who, when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. There's a lot of rumours surrounding Jim. And today, he addresses some of them for good. as far as the world is concerned a few months later but obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and tani broke up when we decided to tell them because i lost my the other day on on social media so i can take hey i've got a thick skin it doesn't it bounces straight off i don't care this is my job it's not a personal reflection on me but when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried that's where i draw the line some people come on this podcast and they're cagey sometimes they even try and bend the truth
Starting point is 00:01:37 protect their ego dare i say it sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally honest. Raw, unfiltered, and vulnerable. He's a British celebrity with six or seven or eight million followers. But you don't know Jim. You don't know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody does. Today we're talking about success. The chronic curse of overthinking.
Starting point is 00:02:04 We're talking about love, breakups, overthinking we're talking about love breakups rumors Both of the similarities in our mindsets We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction In various parts of your life if you're going to be happy something I didn't realize until today until this conversation And we're talking about child abuse child abuse to an extent that most of us could and should hopefully Never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralyzing anxiety, social media, and subsides and downsides. And what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about.
Starting point is 00:02:37 Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim. And today, he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Jim, I always think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today because for me that creates the context for everything we're about to discuss and a lot of the time people don't really know those things um so tell me about some of the experiences when you were younger when you're in school um that you think have contributed to the man you are today okay um i guess and god
Starting point is 00:03:24 is instantly going to sound like a sob story and it absolutely is not this is a positive thing i guess the first thing that springs to mind is my dad so uh my dad was he did bad things like he he abused my mom um from even before i was born i got two older sisters who um you know dealt with it as well i don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he verbally was very, I mean, even I remember that and I was super young. I remember him being very, very hurtful and very unkind and just bullying to my sisters.
Starting point is 00:03:55 I think he always wanted boys. So my brother and I were kind of like, I've got a twin. So we were like the prodigal children, I suppose. I didn't know this because obviously I was born into it, but it's not, it wasn't until I got a little older and I'd have like sleepovers at friends' houses, or I would just be in the presence of other people and their parents. And I'd be like, wait, your house isn't terrifying. That's, that's, this is great. You know? And I think I got, as I got slightly older, I realized that things weren't quite right. And it was one
Starting point is 00:04:25 day, my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept, my parents. And we walked in and my dad was like on top of her, just beating the shit out of her basically. And my brother and I, we were only tiny, we must've been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge. So just pinged us away. And it was a wild night you know the police came took him away um etc etc just kind of and he i didn't know at the time but he had been beating my mom and abusing her for years but of course she was trapped now my mom is a saint but also she doesn't tolerate fools she's not i think the thing about domestic abuse is a lot of people just get out of there just get out of there, just get out of there.
Starting point is 00:05:06 It's not as simple as that. She had her kids to think of. I remember being in the car with my dad and he would threaten to just crash the car and kill us all. He drove like a maniac. He was drunk quite a lot. My mom couldn't just leave with four children because he found us, we tried to leave and he found us.
Starting point is 00:05:22 So I think that he's very much a cautionary tale for me. He was out of my life from fairly young, but never fully out because he, you know, he was taken away by the police. He was arrested. He was in prison for a while. But despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near he still came near all the time at one point he kidnapped is a very strong word but at one point he took me um it just kind of came to the window and i was his son you know he was my dad so i worshipped him and i still didn't fully understand so i remember going to the window and saying mom's calling the police you have to go and he just sort of went okay and just took me with him and drove we're in a bloody police chase drove like super fast and the police had to kind of you know stop him pull him over um it was you know it's it was a very unsettling time for a child but because of that he was removed and
Starting point is 00:06:13 i spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mom and my big sisters so i wanted for nothing um i was very well loved very well well protected, super well looked after. And I think actually, I often wonder, and I was having this chat with Sarah the other day, because obviously we've got a child on the way. And I was thinking, I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around or if we couldn't get away from him or whatever it would have been. And, you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons. But I think mostly cautionary lessons because my family are bloody great. You know, there's two big sisters.
Starting point is 00:06:54 I've got a mom. I've got a twin brother. And I would choose no one else on the planet to take those roles. If I had the choice, they would be the people I choose 100%. And he missed out on that because he was unwell, I would say. He had MS. And I always remember him being a victim of it in a way. My sister inherited it from him. And she's so positive with it.
Starting point is 00:07:19 Like she's not a victim. She doesn't let it be her. She has times where she's tired. It gets on top of her. She has a little sob. She goes to bed. She recognizes the signs though. And she goes has times when she's tired it gets on top of her and she has a little sob she goes to bed she recognizes the signs though and she goes right okay it's getting on top of me i need to rest for a while i remember my dad just being like a victim of it and being like oh it ruined my life it did this he used to play football from what i understand a fairly high-ish level like kind of he played for west ham not in the
Starting point is 00:07:43 a team but something and he was like oh the ms ruined it for me which i'm sure it did you know there's no question with that but life deals you cards and you react you behave in a way that you that you see fit um and he let the cards life dealt him ruin everything, I think. And I think because of that, he was angry. I also, I mean, and I don't say this lightly, but I think he was definitely sociopathic. He manipulated everybody.
Starting point is 00:08:16 And a lot of it, my mom didn't even know about until we were clear from him. And then people start asking her for money because, you know, he owed it to them. I mean, he went to prison for like armed robbery or something like he was just, you know, he did some really bad things. Um, so I think for me, that's kind of the first thing my mind goes to when someone asked me about kind of, um, childhood, um, formulation of me, but I don't necessarily think of it as a negative thing is actually, I think that because he was removed from my life by my protectors, by my mum, my big sisters,
Starting point is 00:08:49 I had a wonderful childhood. You know, we didn't have any, when he was around, there was more money because I think he stole a lot of money and because he took it, you know, there was two parents earning, but also he earned it by sort of nefarious means. Suddenly we had no money. And my nan had to like buy the house that we lived in and we stayed at my mum's best friends for like a year or so because she took us in because we couldn't afford anywhere else but i was safe and i was happy and i was like my mum had more capacity to be a better mum because she wasn't constantly running for the hills you know so actually i think that it's a really positive thing um that happened because imagine if he was still around imagine if he was
Starting point is 00:09:31 still my father figure now at 33 i'd be a mess for one thing i think but i'd also be i wonder if i'd be a not a nice man and actually i pride myself on being decent and kind. And he missed out on that. I read a little bit about the story as I was doing some research on your book and things like that. And one of the most startling parts of all of this is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising. I think you said, I don't blame him for how things happened. Yeah don't i i actually i i think of myself as quite an empathetic person um i rarely have arguments with people um i do with sarah obviously because we live under the same roof um and like we have disagreements but your fiance yes my fiance yes um although not at
Starting point is 00:10:20 the moment because she's pregnant so you can do no wrong wrong. But I do have, I tend not to have like extra personal drama because I do consider how it would be from someone else's perspective. And I appreciate that. Yes, okay, I could have my say because I feel slighted about a thing and I could say, well, you did this and it made me feel that. But that's my feelings on an action that they did. And they will have equal and opposite feelings on the way I behaved because of their actions.
Starting point is 00:10:50 Nobody, I don't, I believe nobody will go out of their way just to be a prick. You know, they've always got their thoughts and feelings and their motivations. And I don't think anyone's doing it like, oh, that'll piss Jim off, I'll do that. You know what I mean? They're living their life.
Starting point is 00:11:04 We all live in our bubble. my therapist calls it the lifeboat we all live in our lifeboat right um but we're all in the same ocean so depending on how good your lifeboat is you whether the storm or not right there's a storm on the ocean we're all in it especially at the moment it's a pandemic right We're all in it, especially at the moment. It's a pandemic, right? We're all in a pandemic together, but it depends on the boat you're sailing on. And there are times when boats kind of bump into each other or someone's in a dinghy and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while and help them get through things or whatever.
Starting point is 00:11:36 But I really don't feel like anybody is purposely an arse. It might be manipulative. They might see a way that they can behave that will better them in a situation where they go, okay, I'll come up better with that. And it might, it might do him no favours, but you know, they're not doing it for that reason. They're doing it for that reason. They're doing it because they want to have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off. So I tend not to have arguments i will say to someone that's not cool can you see that from my perspective um and you and and you think so
Starting point is 00:12:12 when you think about your the situation with your dad it seems like from that you you avoid attributing blame to him and then so i i'm questioning myself. I'm saying, is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is? Or you have empathy for? I have, yeah. I just, I think I just have empathy for people. I don't, I think there's definitely blame. I think we all, we all have to own our own actions. But I think there are also,
Starting point is 00:12:41 there are reasons behind actions. I don't think it's ever as simple as he hit my mom just because he's aggressive i think you have to dig deeper my my granddad was so his dad not okay i remember being i remember going to his house and he'd be like watching not porn but like softcore in front of us you know as just he was just i don't know i don't know if he was just a bit like um senile at that point or or what but you know it's not all right to do that with young kids around um and you see these generational cycles right 100 yeah and i'm very proud and very happy to have broken that cycle because you know i don't i don't know what his dad was
Starting point is 00:13:25 like but my granddad taught my dad his behavior not all of it because i actually i actually do think there was um i actually do believe my dad had sociopathic tendencies which isn't necessarily a taught thing it's more like a brain function thing you know um but i think there was definitely something there and it didn't help having his dad teach, instill in him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever. My mum is a very loud person. And that's a huge understatement, like loves to scream in people's faces,
Starting point is 00:13:57 very short temper. My dad is a certain way. And as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious that at times I feel like myself becoming a little bit like them in certain moments. And it scares me sometimes, I think. And I think, well, genetically, of course, I'm half of each of them. So has it ever concerned you in the same way that you might have picked up some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents?
Starting point is 00:14:24 Has it ever crossed your mind? I'm turning into my mum really sure my mum my mum has unpleasant traits only in as far as she for example when i moved house wouldn't stop going about parking like that sort of thing oh you better get parking my mom i live in london you don't get off street parking i've got a parking permit i park around the corner that's my life but she's like oh you need to get a driveway i'm like no i don't like that's the sort of thing she won't let it drop she's got a parking permit. I park around the corner. That's my life. But she's like, oh, you need to get a driveway. I'm like, no, I don't. Like, that's the sort of thing. She won't let it drop. She's got a fact in her mind about Trump, for example.
Starting point is 00:14:52 And she goes, oh, Trump's badly did this thing. I'm like, yeah, but what about all the other things? You know, so she's, that's her kind of annoying trait. And if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that. As far as my dad, I don't think, I mean, yeah, like I say, he's half me. Well then i'm fine with that um as far as my dad i don't think i mean yeah like i say he's half me or i'm half him i suppose um but i think that the thing is well my degree is in psychology right so i know a little bit about it and i'm always quite conscious like i know for example there are certain genes that will only get triggered under certain
Starting point is 00:15:21 environments so yes all right i might well have his gene for something, but if I'm not in an environment where it would have expressed itself, then I might never. And I also think that there is an element of, I guess, consciousness that can override that. Self-awareness. Yeah, self-awareness. And education, because therapy, psychology.
Starting point is 00:15:47 Totally, yeah, yeah. I'm very, I work on, and I hate saying this because it sounds like really wanky, but I work on bettering myself. You know, I know my flaws. I work too much. Like I forget to bring my head up and I neglect Sarah sometimes
Starting point is 00:16:03 because I'm too busy typing away or I'm too busy in my own little world stressing about whatever I'm stressing about which doesn't need to happen but it does and I I'm aware of that and that's the sort of thing I work on but I've never been aggressive never been violent um I weirdly I do boxing quite a lot but it's not about the violence of it it's about the chess of it like I really like the it's an intellectual sport you know you have to be smart you have to think about where you're positioning in all the time um and i've never this is not i don't know if it's not in my nature but it's something that i won't entertain there are times where i get driven bonkers by sarah or by people and i just think oh my god I could just like nut you right now
Starting point is 00:16:45 obviously I'm never going to because it's just every fibre of my being would not allow me because I've seen the impact I've seen
Starting point is 00:16:54 I'm six foot three I could do some real damage but I just never would so I do get loud sometimes if I'm
Starting point is 00:17:03 you know if we're having an argument I will kind of just talk louder and more never would so i i do get loud sometimes if i'm you know if we're having an argument i will kind of just talk louder and i think with me and sarah in particular it's tricky because we're both quite smart and so when it comes to an argument we're just trying to outsmart each other the whole time which makes it really frustrating because we're both going no you're wrong because of this yeah um both of you are right yeah and actually yeah there's truth in both um for sure um but it's really hard to see that when you've got your blood up you know what i mean but i totally think that there's no there's i got i like to think i've got the best bits of my mum um and if there is any kindness in my dad and i remember moments i don't i don't have loads of
Starting point is 00:17:40 memories of him and 90 of them are negative scary, but there are moments I remember him sitting down with me and reading. There was a magazine. I forget what it was called, but you used to get like a little bit of a figure every time and you'd make the figure and it was like something to do with bugs. And we made a big spider. 12 quid per magazine. Basically.
Starting point is 00:17:59 Yeah. Really, really overpriced. I remember him. He would read it with me from cover to cover and we'd put the bug together. Now, there would end up being six issues that we didn't get done and we'd have to do them in one go because he wasn't around, because he was gone doing whatever he was doing
Starting point is 00:18:14 and he would let me down a lot. But I remember doing them and I remember loving that time with him. What kind of dad do you want to become? Because you've got a kid on the way now congrats again yeah thanks um it's really hard to say this because i know that every first time prospective parent goes oh i'm gonna be the best dad and actually you know invariably we'll all fuck up at some point it's gonna happen um i just i think for me if i can have a child and if i can instill in them the waste of time in anxiety like that just the just the sheer nonsense of it like i i really
Starting point is 00:18:56 want them to understand that worrying does nothing you know yes all right we can be stressed about things there are times when life is hard and things, there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges when they present themselves. There's no, my therapist once said to me, when you worry, you rob yourself twice, right? Because the first time round, you're overwhelmingly thinking about nothing but a potential problem, which may never rear its head. If it doesn't rear its head, then you've wasted time worrying about it. If it does rear its head, then you're forced into action because you can't stay in that situation. So why stress about something that's never going to happen or, you know, something that you will solve if it does happen? So I really want my child to understand, just be content, I think, and to know that both me and Sarah and all of our families, so my siblings, my mum, Sarah's siblings and her parents will always be there to help. You know, I think that if I can do that, then I'll have done a good job. I want to be patient. It's in my nature. I'm a very patient person. But I also know that I'll be tested. So when I do snap, I snap quite loudly.
Starting point is 00:20:07 So I want to be calm. I want to be patient. I want to be soft and considerate. And again, empathetic. Because the thing about kids I really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents. They can't necessarily verbalize or especially don't have the communication ability to say,
Starting point is 00:20:29 no, that's not what I want. You know, they have to appreciate that. Obviously what I want overrules it for the most part, because safety or whatever. But I think they, I also need to appreciate that they'll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel pissed off because I've said no. And that will often come out in like tantrums or whatever. And they won't understand daddy's world and why when they're trying to get your attention, they don't know you're on a Zoom call pitching something, for example.
Starting point is 00:20:57 They're just like, daddy won't play with me. You know what I mean? So that's interesting. I also want to make sure I'm around enough. My job totally allows that. Like I have time. I can work as little or as much as I want. That's the beauty of my job.
Starting point is 00:21:10 Obviously I work less, I earn less, but you know, I can make those sacrifices. I don't at the moment. That's my problem. I work constantly because I like what I do. And because of the constant, it's anxiety. I'm constantly worried about if I take my foot off the gas, what happens next?
Starting point is 00:21:24 I find that fascinating, but I picked up on that before we started recording right because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on you would then end the sentence with but i might lose it all right and i i don't resonate like that i found that interesting because it's not how i end my sentences right but it was it was like you would tell me something and then you would also then almost caveat it at the end with there is a chance i might not i might not get it or i might lose it all yeah and i i i find it particularly because i don't think in that way right so where does that come from in you this my mom right uh 100 again she's wonderful wonderful. She has like an ethos. It's not a saying, but it's an ethos,
Starting point is 00:22:07 which is like a day doing nothing is a day wasted. She can't relax. I can't relax as a consequence. If I'm sitting there just chilling, even if I'm watching a film, which for me I consider as research because I write films, right? If I'm watching something, I'm like,
Starting point is 00:22:21 oh, okay, I see what they're doing there. And it's like, I don't watch them passively. I'm constantly thinking about them. But even if I'm sitting something, I'm like, oh, okay, I see what they're doing there. And it's like, I don't watch them passively. I'm constantly thinking about them. But even if I'm sitting there watching a film, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't be doing it. 9 p.m., right? It's the evening and I'm supposed to be relaxing. And I'm sitting there going, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing this.
Starting point is 00:22:37 That's my biggest... What's your brain saying in that moment? It's telling me off. It's going, dude, you need to be... You can't just be sitting here watching. You need to be working and making. What if this all you need to be doing you need working and making what if this all goes wrong how are you going to earn the money how are you going to afford to look after your child and pay the mortgage and you know all that stuff a lot of people will resonate with that for sure um and
Starting point is 00:22:58 you've addressed it in therapy yeah what have you learned i learned that i do it which a lot of people don't even know right that self-awareness of knowing that it's a problem you have and and it's taken me i've been seeing my therapist for christ six seven years something like that how often uh it varies if i'm going through a moment then more often at the moment like once every six weeks because i'm pretty chill um but it's taken her most of our time together just to crack that. And she sort of said, you know, with me, it's my biggest strength and also my biggest flaw. It just depends on where it is on the dial.
Starting point is 00:23:37 If I've got that at seven, it's great because I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work and I'm loving it and I'm sitting there going, God, I'm really good at this, you know, and I'm typing away or doing whatever I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work and I'm loving it. And I'm sitting there going, God, I'm really good at this. You know, and I'm typing away or doing whatever I'm doing. If it's an eight or a nine, it's torture. Paralyzed or? Yeah, often paralyzed. Often paralyzed, ironically, into doing nothing because I'm so busy stressing about getting it done.
Starting point is 00:24:01 I don't get it done because I've got no brain space because it's too busy whizzing around in my head going get it done get it done get it done um so there's a point where it's sort of really um ironically kind of just it's the antithesis of what it's designed for yeah and i think i i think i'll get a lot of that from my dad because i remember being young knowing that it was easier to be busy and keep myself separate. So I used to draw. I read this. Be really arty. You would sit in the corner. Yeah, sit out of harm's way.
Starting point is 00:24:31 So you would draw in the corner because you felt safe if you were busy and he wasn't. If I wasn't in his eyeline, I couldn't be chastised or it was safer. The thing with my dad, he was very unpredictable. So, which is terrifying for a kid, right? Because you don't know if you're going to get love or you're going to get punishment for the same action. So I would spend most of my time just kind of getting on with stuff. And because of that, I've developed a real independence, a real creativity. But if it's turned up too high, it's crippling. Whereas if it's a good number, then it's what's got me to where I am. I 100% would not be here without that
Starting point is 00:25:10 because I just wouldn't work as hard as I do. But I don't need to work as hard as I do. You know, human beings have a couple of things they need to do. They need to sleep. They need to eat. They have the option of procreating. That's kind of it, right?
Starting point is 00:25:23 What else is there? The rest of it is just made up. The rest of it is just made up. Right. The rest of it is just made up shit that we've given ourselves to do. Society has told us that in order to be a complete person, we need to climb. Right. Totally. And it's bloody stressful.
Starting point is 00:25:35 It's debilitating sometimes. So when I have that turned up too high, I end up doing nothing. But I worry myself. And Sarah's like, where have you gone? Like, I just disappear. And I don't talk. I don't like, I haven't been like this for a while because I'm pretty good at recognising the signs
Starting point is 00:25:49 and I know to take my foot off the gas a bit because of, you know, all the therapy I've had. But yeah, it's the bloody worst. What has helped you? Therapy. Yeah, absolutely that. Being aware of it. There's a point, I always say this because I've actually, a couple of my best mates have, I don't know a guy that's my age that doesn't need it by the way um so a couple of
Starting point is 00:26:11 my best mates i've put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something you know i think you should see someone actually we're really open and honest with each other we're constantly looking out if one of us is quiet on the group chat we'll go dude are you all right you've been a bit quiet um i said to him at a time i was like there's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone at first you're really resistant you're like no i'm fine what are you talking about but when they point things out to you like shit i'm not fine but you're aware of doing it but you have no tools in place of how to stop doing it or how to at least challenge it. So you're just punishing yourself for doing it. Like I remember going through that stage for a long time going, I hate that I'm
Starting point is 00:26:49 failing. I hate that I'm still stressing out about being like working constantly or not working constantly or whatever it is. I hate that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't stop. And you feel a bit like a junkie, you know, in a way that you're like you know it's wrong you know you shouldn't be doing it but you can't you can't not um and actually it takes a while to learn the techniques you know mine is as simple as it's it's it's painful but i have to go right stop just don't do it take a step away from your laptop step away from your camera do whatever it is you're doing have five minutes if you feel better after five minutes go back to it if not then take the rest of the day off um and that's what i have to do i need to be sarah needs to keep me in check quite a lot because if i sometimes it sneaks up on me and i'm kind of like at stage four before i even realize it and i'm like shit i'm in too deep
Starting point is 00:27:38 um so she's often like dude come back um and that's really helpful it's hard though because you don't want to be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should you know what i mean especially something that matters right right it's totally especially when it's your already your weakness um but you need to be like i actually really like criticism so it's good for me like you know if i send someone some work or something and they go oh okay as long, as long as it's constructive, you know, they go, okay, I see what you're doing here. Don't like that. That's not great. I thrive on that because I'm back in there and I'm, you know. So I think having other third parties be like, you're not doing right right now. And that's something that
Starting point is 00:28:21 I really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child, because I don't want to be an absent father. I don't want to be a dad that's always going, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just on my lap, so come back to me in five minutes. I want to be able to, obviously I have to work, you know, we all have a living,
Starting point is 00:28:35 but I want to be able to have my kid with me and be present, you know, and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or like an afterthought or just an addition. I want them to know that they are the centre of my universe, you know. So professionally, we talked a little bit about your work there. One of the things that you've said is you don't like being called like an influencer, like a YouTuber. I think it's really reductive.
Starting point is 00:29:02 Yeah. And I think that actually, if you look at, you that actually if you just weigh up the quantity of work I do, it's only about less than 50 I'd say unfortunately I don't get paid for the other stuff yet you don't get paid for YouTube at the start right? Absolutely, yeah totally
Starting point is 00:29:18 but I do lots of other stuff I appreciate that I communicate that other stuff online via my social media. I just think that influencer is, for one thing, it's an ugly word because it implies that you are utilising influence over someone. Whereas actually, I just share the stuff I like, even if it's an ad, even if it's, I'm working with a brand. I'm not going to work with a brand that I don't want to talk about, right?
Starting point is 00:29:44 So it's, I'm talking about things that I'm actually enjoying or passionate about, or whatever it may be. And I don't see that as exerting influence. I see that as sharing joy, or even if it's just sharing good tips or whatever it may be, I see that as a very different thing. And I also have a thing, and I've mentioned this a few times, there's, there was a void in social media where myself and my contemporaries, we all started it around the same time, did it for fun, did it for love,
Starting point is 00:30:12 did it for adventure. We had no idea it was going to go anywhere. And when it started to, we were like, oh my God. I mean, genuinely, I look back at it and I was such nostalgia. I don't miss it, but I love that I was part of it, you know, because it was such a cool journey to- I mean, in history as well. Yeah, totally part of it, you know, because it was such a cool journey to...
Starting point is 00:30:25 It might have been in history as well. Yeah, it totally, absolutely was, you know. And we sold out these venues and we were, you know, we had screaming fans. It felt like being in a small version of One Direction, you know. It was wild and just so much fun. Do you miss that? No.
Starting point is 00:30:38 I loved it at the time when I was in my early 20s. Every young person, and I saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff. Right. And I've never seen a line that long in my early 20s every young person and i saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff right and i've never seen a line that long in my lifetime yeah it's wild but like like a thousand meters i don't even know how many meters that is of people right four like four deep in like this massive line just screaming and crying at times it's really hard to put into words i tried explaining it to sarah when we first met because of videos yeah it's really hard and we get if i get stopped on the street now by someone she's like what yeah but she's also like oh they didn't scream or cry i'm like yeah but don't get
Starting point is 00:31:12 it sir it used to be um but what my point was is that like everyone thinks especially young people especially young men of all young people would love to be that guy and you're telling me you don't miss it no i loved it at the time don't get me wrong it was great but the novelty soon wears off because it got to the point where you couldn't i couldn't take public transport i couldn't walk to the shops um you know and it sounds like i'm really exaggerating but actually at the time it really was that just i would even now if i'm walking along the street and i see a group of teenagers i'm like oh shit here we go it's not teenagers anymore they're all in their 20s but i'm walking along the street and i see a group of teenagers i'm like oh shit here we go it's not teenagers anymore they're all in their 20s but i'm so conditioned to being aware of
Starting point is 00:31:50 teenagers now that i'm like oh my god oh my god they're gonna come for me and they're gonna like scream and cry and it's i don't how is this played with your anxiety though that's not that's not what sets me off so that's fine um i've always got time for it if people stop and want to have a conversation as long as i physically have time for it i'm not rushing i'll always got time for it if people stop and want to have a conversation as long as i physically have time for it i'm not rushing i'll always stop and have a chat you know i've got i'm i'm i'm really gracious in that i appreciate that without those people i wouldn't be in the position i'm in i don't feel like i owe them anything because at the same time i provided the content they wanted to watch but it's definitely like almost like a transaction right i wouldn't be
Starting point is 00:32:23 there without them they wouldn't a lot of them have said like when i had amounts that i was pregnant sarah was pregnant a lot of them sort of said oh my god i can't believe it you you like brought me up because a lot of these teenagers watched my content and my contemporaries content um like shake carl as well don't they right totally because i watched that because they they they loved like watching us and we were role models for them i suppose you know and that's a really wonderful thing to be part of and dare i say you're idyllic in a way that it often with with the shade the shaytards and shake shake all in his family right i didn't have a perfect family like that so there was it gay you felt like you were part of that yeah i think that and also the friendships with
Starting point is 00:33:03 with the others it was very identical but it genuinely was that was our life at the time it was just pure fun and like there was no stress we were young so we had no like um no responsibilities no mortgages no no like other things to worry about other than just like going out there and having a blast and we just got to document that and share it you don't miss it no i say i'm nostalgic i'm really happy i had was part of it but i don't miss it because i'm 33 i don't want 14 year old girls pawning over me you know what i mean or just kind of like desperately trying i remember one time being on the tube and this young girl just burst into tears and her dad looked at
Starting point is 00:33:40 me and thought i was like would you blame him you know so i was like i'm all right i'm on the internet which didn't help because he's like doing what um so yeah i don't i don't miss it uh because it's actually really invasive and like i say i don't care about the notoriety it was really lovely to be that person for some people um and to have even then although there was big numbers it was still fairly underground that hadn't really reached mainstream it was just online right so although it was lots of people it was a certain sort of sector of society it wasn't like older men it wasn't you know it was just teenagers basically um and it was yeah i could say it was a real blast but i don't miss it i feel like actually i grew out of it fairly rapidly the thing about it being teenagers is that no one can obsess like teenagers so they would be desperate for the photo the selfie the um they scream and cry and go ballistic
Starting point is 00:34:37 and actually but i'm really anti-climactic i'm just some some dude i'm really i'll often just go i'm really sorry that it's me um so yeah i'm very like i said i'm very grateful for it and i love that i've got those memories and i love that i've made those friends um but yeah i don't miss it who's jim now then that's if that's old jim and that's your say your first chapter what is the what is your second chapter i feel like i've had so many chapters actually i feel like i've i've evolved the beauty of my job right is i'm allowed to do that i'm allowed to evolve when it's forced it can be really ugly and i think that's how a lot of people lose their following um partly it's it's entropy you know people grow up and they move on they do other things but algorithms algorithms all that but i think mostly it's just people force it to try to get traffic and views.
Starting point is 00:35:25 And actually my life has just, as it's changed, I've grown up with it and I've accepted that change. For example, I'm really hoping I turn into a silver fox. I'm looking forward to aging gracefully, you know what I mean? And I think that that's kind of my role on social media. I'm not pretending to talk to young people anymore. I'm not pretending to be the cool guy. And like,
Starting point is 00:35:46 you know, I'm, I'm, I appreciate that. I'm, I'm getting older. My life's changed. My interests have changed.
Starting point is 00:35:52 My career has changed. And I share that with people as opposed to desperately trying to still impress a young, an audience that aren't right for me. I, I speak to a lot of YouTubers and we used to sign a couple and there was this really interesting moment where that first wave of youtuber because of algorithm changes i think predominantly algorithm changes what they were doing then just stopped working right the views went down and i swear to god i witnessed a form of depression and existential crisis right from these youtubers who suddenly were like what the fuck has happened what
Starting point is 00:36:25 do i do with my life now because their whole identity from whether it was like 16 years old to 22 was doing this one thing they never really understood work right and it's funny because i've never really talked about this before but one of the youtubers we signed you'll know his name maybe 18 at the time and we remember calling him and offering him 20 grand just to show up to a place and he's like nah right i'm like just shut up he's like no i just can't be bothered like and he developed that sense of like complacency about his career and how you make money and how easy it is right and then when shit changes i'm saying he can't make any money anymore and and he's spiraled down because i think life taught him that money and life was super easy
Starting point is 00:37:05 the algorithm changes and now he's like fuck and he has to go work at tesco that's something that i really can't tolerate in this industry is when people have that attitude like i'm where i am um because i'm good to work with as much as the numbers and as much as everything else i've stayed the test of time because i am honest and decent with my audience and i respect my audience and i don't take the piss and don't take it for granted but also if i am offered a job i turn up on time i say my pleases and thank yous i get a lot of repeat work because i'm good to work with and i pride myself on that and i have no i have so little tolerance for ego like all of us if we're on set shooting a thing whether it's whether you're the runner or the
Starting point is 00:37:45 director or you're me doing the bit to camera or you're the guy going to get coffee we're all just want to do our job and enjoy what we're doing and then go home at the end of the day and say oh that was nice you know we don't there's no space for any of that and i think that it's particularly bad in this industry right more so than any, because when it comes to musicians or actors or whatever, there's so many people around them, right? Who are looking after them and who are saying no and who are advising them. And also they're not their own content.
Starting point is 00:38:19 Brad Pitt doesn't play Brad Pitt. He plays someone else, right? Someone like me, my job is to edit myself, take my own photo, make my own caption, reply to my own comments. And it's all like Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim. It's very easy to then think you're the center of the universe.
Starting point is 00:38:33 But actually for every person who's commenting going Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, they're also commenting on everybody else's content because they just consume the content. I might be their favorite. I might not. It doesn't matter. I'm not, I am not my job.
Starting point is 00:38:47 And I think that's really important for a lot of influencers to work out. Like they believe themselves to be important. And actually I say this quite a lot. If I were to die tomorrow, there'd be, my friends and family would be gutted, obviously, and they'd be really, really sad. And there'd be a few people in my audience who were like, who have a real connection with me but for the most part people go oh that's a shame i liked him and they'd move on to find someone else i'm not that important to them that they can't continue without me so funny because that's it sounds really depressive to some degree to say oh i don't matter whatever but i actually think it's the opposite really freeing yeah it's the most liberating thing ever i remember i remember having the same sort of existential conversation
Starting point is 00:39:23 with myself and it really happened when i learned about the universe and space right and i got really into the cosmos and i was like wait a minute i'm fucking not important at all totally when you when it like there's a scene in cosmos where it zooms out from and it just keeps going and you're like wait stop and it's like nope that's just the moon and then it goes out and it's like that's just the galaxy and then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand and you're like what the right but the freeing part is that means that all this shit doesn't matter and it's like that's just the galaxy and then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand and you're like what the right but the the freeing part is that means that all this shit doesn't matter and that's liberation like ego can be and this is the the powerful thing about psychedelics from the last person that sat there who's the biggest psychedelics investor in the world right is it dissolves your
Starting point is 00:39:58 ego and says to you nothing you don't fucking matter right and yeah so i just thought that was fascinating it's really something that's really important to learn i think probably one of my biggest uh learnings from my career because i went through it you know at the beginning when everyone was like obsessing over the the youtubers i was like wow i'm like a really big deal yeah yeah um i think it's really important to know your worth and to know your value and to um appreciate your position i know that i am worth a certain amount of money if i work with a brand or i know that i'm worth a certain amount of time if i'm doing a thing but i also know that i don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that this is a phase i might i might fuck this up tomorrow do you know what i mean it might last another 10 years it might
Starting point is 00:40:42 last another 30 years and i might never want to quit. Equally, I might get bored of it and go, do you know what? I feel like it's too invasive now. Whatever, it doesn't matter. It's my decision and I don't owe anybody else. But equally, they don't owe me. They don't have to watch me if they don't choose to.
Starting point is 00:40:57 And I think that's really important. And a lot of people, especially when they're young and they're developing their sense of identity, as a lot of influencers are, and suddenly are put in a position where they are reaching lots and lots of people, it's very, very easy to think of yourself as the centre of the galaxy. And we're not.
Starting point is 00:41:14 And actually what really matters, what truly matters, is the people that matter to you, you know? And as much as I appreciate my audience, I don't know them, know i wouldn't know i mean statistically there'll be a certain number of them that die every year just because of whatever right i've got no idea it's happening you're not sending cards you know what i mean like i've got no idea it's happening so uh it just so happens that i'm on the other side of the camera and these people
Starting point is 00:41:38 connect to me and i connect to them but it doesn't go any further than that you know something really almost some something your perspective is fascinating because on one end you're very you're very freed right on the other end you talk about your anxiety of of of worry and I'm trying to weigh those two things up this idea that you're like do you know what I don't have a plan I've heard you say that I don't have a you know 10-year planyear plan. The future is the future, whatever. But then maybe when we zoom in and we look at the micro scale, which is like right now, today, it seems to be very urgent.
Starting point is 00:42:10 You're not wrong. I think on the wider scale, it's very freeing to know this. On the more individual scale, like when you zoom right in, it's the stress of survival, I suppose, of like being enough to maintain. Do you know what?
Starting point is 00:42:30 That bit comes down to money, I think, which is unfortunate because like money is not my main motivator, but I realise it's necessary. Where did you learn that? I feel like, is there anything in your past where money or the lack thereof became, you know, became, compromised your safety?
Starting point is 00:42:44 No, I don't think it compromised my safety. Like I say, we didn't have any. And I appreciate that life is, it's, like I said earlier, there's a point where you have enough and that after that point, it doesn't matter anymore. You know, you can go from having a little bit of surplus so that you can enjoy holidays, et cetera, you know, buy yourself some luxury things, whatever you want. After that point that point it's all numbers it doesn't really make any difference
Starting point is 00:43:08 but when you go the other side of the scale and you haven't got enough it's a major stress you know because this what blows my mind about it is it's all fake like it doesn't it's just it's literally me going here here's a piece of paper for loads of your stuff and you go okay cool i put value in that piece of paper it's bollocks but it's unfortunately the way our world works and that stresses me out just in terms of providing like i couldn't go back i mean i could i'd have to but i would really struggle if i had to go back to a conventional job just doesn't suit me like i was bloody miserable my mum thought I was going to kill myself when I was working those jobs you know I I was very very sad um I I think it's a it's a need for me to create and I know that sounds really ridiculous and really wank but like I I can't turn up to a job that is the same thing every day.
Starting point is 00:44:05 It, it, it, it for me feels like a prison. Um, and I actually, I, I think the people that can do that are like special because how wonderful to
Starting point is 00:44:14 know that you are, um, you can switch on, do your job. Um, you can know that you are earning your money. You're looking after your people, you know,
Starting point is 00:44:23 you raise your kids, whatever, whatever it is, whatever your life is, and also provide to society and give back your taxes and all that stuff and just be, you know, a good egg and then go home and switch off again. I just think that's the most wonderful sensation, something I've never experienced and probably never will because my mind doesn't work that way. So for me, the anxiety comes from the fear of going back to that or not being able to provide and the only way i know how to provide is in a very risky industry where i have to constantly churn out content i have to constantly create whatever i'm creating in order to earn the money um and that's that's a scary
Starting point is 00:45:00 thought yeah um but i also appreciate that it's it's the anxiety comes in the job of it i think the freedom comes in the um sort of the more i guess matter of it you know like i don't matter it doesn't whatever that the the jim chapman's not really of any relevance um but for my life it's really important that i put food on the table for for Sarah and my child and that's funny because you know we we always live in now right right it's only ever going to be now yeah and uh what you're saying is in the now there is urgency there is stress yeah it's that we never we're never going to live in the future it's never going to be meta that's not the experience we're ever going to have maybe if we meditate we can spend some time there but
Starting point is 00:45:42 day to day we live in the we live in the present moment um it's it's yeah it's really really interesting to me and as you say you're in an industry where a lot of people aren't making a lot of money right the creative industry so it's yeah particularly challenging um yeah very much so and i think people are following their passion i think the thing with influencing in particular is that the passion is so easily monetized but it's also so easily taken away and it's so competitive that it often i think some people are just passionate about the business of it um now i don't pretend to have a business mind at all i haven't got a bloody clue like i've got a production company that i've just started with one of my pals and he is in charge of the business.
Starting point is 00:46:26 When it comes to my social media stuff, my management are in charge of the business. I just make the stuff I want to make and the stuff that I think will be good. And I fully believe in letting people do play to their strengths. My strength is not that. So, but I often get called like an entrepreneur
Starting point is 00:46:42 or something. I'm like, yeah, all right. I just, it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work um and the hard work i can i'm in control of the luck and the timing i'm not um and the other people around me are in charge of sort of i guess bringing looking after like the financial side of it stuff you know it's the admin stuff that I don't you hate I hate the fiery passion yeah I hate it you said just a couple of moments ago the the proponents that have made you successful you said like you know luck hard work etc etc do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work?
Starting point is 00:47:26 No, absolutely not. How do you square that with the culture we live in today that is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing? I've almost got to the point, I'll never get there because I don't care that much, but I've almost got to the point, and just to say again, I will never get there, right? Because I'm not going to lie to people, where I sometimes feel bad being honest that i wouldn't be here without hard work i'm not telling you to burn out right but i don't know how if i hadn't have sacrificed in the way that i did i would of course that's my experience i've not lived another life right i can only tell you what i've done yeah i think it's really important it's like work hard play hard right it's really important. It's like work hard, play hard, right? It's really important.
Starting point is 00:48:10 I posted this on my Instagram stories the other day. Everybody, there's like, you're right, there is a lot of people who are sort of poo-pooing working hard. Don't work too hard. And there's also people who, on my Instagram, it comes up all the time. Hey, I run three businesses and I do this and I'm only 12 years old. And like... Yeah, but that guy's trying to sell you a course. For sure. That is his business yes for sure that's that's what I mean like broke there's there's there's there's definitely something to be said and this is where I like again I this is where I struggle when you work work hard like I and and work with passion like you know again Sarah's dad says um work is a dirty four-letter word, right? If you find, the other saying, if you find something you love doing,
Starting point is 00:48:46 you'll never work a day in your life. So work really hard and work with passion, but also stop when you need to stop. Take your time off, enjoy your evenings. Or, you know, again, I've got a job which allows me to work as much or as little as I please. I wish I did like a four-day week. I would very much like to do that.
Starting point is 00:49:02 So I have a three-day weekend or I take a day off in the middle of the week. I've got the means to do so, just I've got the brain to do so, you know. And I think that that's a really important distinction. You work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60 and you've gone, oh my God, I haven't actually enjoyed my experiences. I haven't actually, you know, I've got to do some really bloody incredible experiences. And sometimes I'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary or finishing a thing, meeting a deadline, or even stressing about the key messages I've got to get across when I'm on that adventure that I forget to enjoy the adventure. And it's the biggest sort of
Starting point is 00:49:40 waste of time that my job has within it you know like i remember being in a on a helicopter and this wasn't me actually this was somebody else who who i recognized in i was taken away um to new york i was going on a helicopter around manhattan and it was like you know what a cool experience that people don't get to do that very often um and this guy was sat next to me in the middle and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me and i said oh i'll swap seats with you the pilot came over the um you know the whatever it said and said um oh don't swap seats because you'll unbalance the helicopter the guy was so pissed off he said no i want to swap i'm like well no because you'll kill us now so it's a bit different i offered you my seat when i didn't
Starting point is 00:50:21 think we were going to die um for doing it and he sold so much because he couldn't get the photo he wanted and i'm like that for me really really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment like just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around manhattan you idiot um but that's probably a byproduct of social media or something because yeah you know the part of the value of that was for him clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus being in the moment for sure for sure and that and unfortunately that is the job we have to tell while we've done something otherwise you know it hasn't happened right and then there's no point taking you me on that really cool experience because i haven't told anyone about it you know so that there's definitely a a dichotomy there in that you need to prove that you've done it and you
Starting point is 00:51:03 need to show your enjoyment um but you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment um but you need to also not let that take you out of the moment and that's a fine line one of the things i've been thinking a lot about lately which links to that completely is because i sit here with people all the time and i and one of the things i keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life and right a lot of the the lack of success they have either in their work or relationships or whatever or in their personal lives comes from them not being able to switch
Starting point is 00:51:34 off from being from going like being super successful entrepreneur and then when they get home being loving patient right you know and then in the example we've just been talking about there i would assume happiness would come from being able to do your job and take the photo, but then have experiences where you just don't give a fuck
Starting point is 00:51:51 if the world is watching. That's entirely it. And that's not easy. No, it's not easy. And dare I say, the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been
Starting point is 00:52:02 the inability to switch off in some degree because of the hard work. You're on a fucking helicopter. have been the inability to switch off in some degree because absolutely hard work yeah i haven't i haven't got to where i am by switching off whenever i choose to you know what i mean i've got here because i work harder than i should um and that's that's a massive sacrifice because i've missed out on moments i've missed out on um you know like there are times where i should just be more present with sarah but i'm too busy working you know i miss out on things but i get to go on the helicopter but you know more than that i get to live a really cool existence like i love my job so it's really difficult but my the way i
Starting point is 00:52:38 kind of cross that t dot that i i suppose is that I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have an actual holiday rather than just calling a trip. It's very easy. I mean, you know, without sounding like a real moron, it's very easy for me to call a trip in if I want to. Yeah, of course. I just email a PR and say, oh, I want to go to Dubai. And they'll go, all right, when do you want to go?
Starting point is 00:53:00 Right? But I tend not to because, if it's oftentimes a thing will come to me and it's a place i've never been or experience i've never had and i'll jump on it but i will tend not to request a free trip because honestly my time is more valuable than the money i can potentially earn so i would rather pay my money to go somewhere and switch off and read a book, do the crossword puzzle, hang out, you know,
Starting point is 00:53:32 because I value that much more than the money. I think that that's the thing. I think some people put their value in money, in my view, too high. And I don't value it like that. I think what's most important,
Starting point is 00:53:46 what I value more is people and time. One of the other really interesting things you said as we were talking, maybe before we started filming, was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about with your screenplays. And one of the things you said was love.
Starting point is 00:53:59 Yeah. I thought to myself, I wonder why he's good at writing about love. I don't know, actually. I know my strengths when it comes to writing. And it's one of those things where, I wonder why he's good at writing about love. I don't know, actually. I know my strengths when it comes to writing. And it's one of those things where, to begin with, we've all got imposter syndrome, right?
Starting point is 00:54:12 Constantly. I've still got it 10 years on. But I know I'm good at that. I know I can send a script somewhere. They might not like it. It might not be the thing for them. And they get told no quite a lot. But invariably they say, you know what? Great script. You've done a really good job there.
Starting point is 00:54:23 So I am confident in my ability there and i know my strengths are dialogue um because i write how people talk but also get the point across like i can't i'm the worst person to watch a film with because i'm watching something i'm like people don't talk like that what is going you know um but also love i just think i've got i i don't know i think I'm a bit of an old romantic and it comes down. I think it really, for me, comes down to how you feel love. You know, if you can feel love and you can put pen to paper, you can write love. And I pride myself on trusting and loving.
Starting point is 00:55:00 Like, I'm not a jealous person. I'm not, I'm never never gonna micromanage a relationship anything like that if i love someone i trust them implicitly they can do as they wish they can go out with the boys whatever i'm never gonna go oh who did you meet and what happened i'm never gonna like check their phone you know i'm never gonna do any of that because if i love someone i'm all in um and that for me is really important if If you get your fingers burnt, then all right, then they get one chance, you know? That's my life.
Starting point is 00:55:31 You had a very public relationship, one that was shared on YouTube for many, many years. You ended up marrying said person and then that relationship ended. Difficult, I imagine, to have that experience in public, right? It's too impossible, yeah. Really? We were together for 12 years and most of that time was wonderful you know it was really great like i say we conquered the world together we were both part of that first breed of influencers like social media people and we had a wicked time and then
Starting point is 00:55:59 we grew up together it was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions you know um and at some point you know the oh you're gonna do that you go on yeah like that the wider the gap gets i literally just did this for the first time last week on this podcast i was like i'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines yeah and and if you imagine the parallel lines have just a one percent angle either way sure right they're either going to stay parallel they're going to go away from each other or closer together over time totally i look back at it now and i realized that actually it probably was a small a small incline or decline whichever way you want to put it but it at some point becomes insurmountable becomes a chasm you can't leap anymore right so i look back
Starting point is 00:56:38 at it and realize that perhaps it was uh it started much earlier than either of us anticipated even either of us realized and we just kind of kept getting more and more distant until eventually we were just roommates basically um was it hard to break it off when you get to that point because you've got the world watching yeah it wasn't hard as a couple because we were both we both knew we deserved better right we both knew we're like this isn't working and we took a it took a long time to have the conversation because i think we both tried for a while we're like it'll come back around it'll come back around but we're not stupid we both knew we deserved better so the when we actually
Starting point is 00:57:12 had the conversation it was for both of us quite freeing emotional because of all the time we had together but quite freeing of course you then got the audience to think of who make assumptions right and oh i've lost count the amount of times i've been called a cheater um just and poor old sarah gets called my mistress constantly i didn't even know sarah existed like she was not a person to me until well after we broke up you know like i met her on an app and like i'm really i'm really tempted at some point sometimes to get the app. I haven't got it anymore, but I want to redownload it and find our conversation. Look, we started talking on this date just to just to prove the point, because it's not Sarah didn't sign up for this shit.
Starting point is 00:57:55 You know, she fell in love with me and it just so happens that I come with a bit of an audience who have opinions on things. And, you know, we all gossip, right? We've all got opinions on things. I watch people go through breakups on TV or I watch like the drama with, say, Meghan and Harry or whatever. And I have my thoughts and my feelings on it. But of course, I'm not going to DM them about it, you know. And I think that is the issue that on the internet, there's sort of anonymity and people can say things thinking there's no repercussions.
Starting point is 00:58:30 I lost my shit the other day on social media because, and I never address it. I very much of the, like I said earlier, I'm inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. So I can take, hey, I've got a thick skin. It doesn't, it bounces straight off. I don't care. Like this, this is my job.
Starting point is 00:58:45 It's not a personal reflection on me. So whatever. But somebody had DM'd Sarah a bunch of pictures of my old relationship, my previous life, and said, you'll never match up to her. And then has sent another one saying, and your child deserves to be miscarried. And I lost my shit.
Starting point is 00:58:59 And I've never, I've never behaved this way online, but I went straight to my Instagram stories and I told the person i said fuck you to the person um and also i was very mad and perhaps i should have let cooler heads prevail but actually the amount of um support i had off the back of it people saying you know what bloody two rights stand up for you stand up for sarah stand up for yourself stand up for your child um and i've we've had two years of it right because me and tanya broke up just over two years ago me and sarah got
Starting point is 00:59:29 together i don't know like as far as the world is concerned a few months later but obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and tanya broke up when we decided to tell them we only decided to tell them when we did because the press found out so actually it was much earlier than anyone realizes because we were trying to get our heads around it and work out how to do it with minimal backlash, minimal negative energy, right? Because we didn't have any towards each other at all. But when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever, whatever,
Starting point is 01:00:05 it's fine. It bounces back off. I hold my head high. Everybody who I know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened. And that's what really matters to me. I don't care. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance, the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried that's where i draw the line the person that sent that message you know that they they probably wanted that reaction
Starting point is 01:00:35 yeah i do um i one of the best pieces of advice that i was ever given was don't play around in the mud with the pigs because you both get dirty but the pigs will love it right so i live by a motto of never explain never complain i don't i own my decisions like i own my life i'm an adult i don't have to explain myself to anyone should i not wish to right simple um i am confident in my ability and my decisions that I'm like, this is the path I'm choosing and you can like it or lump it basically. But I felt like making an example, I didn't out anyone, I didn't say any names, I didn't, you know, share any usernames, but I felt like making an example of that person, especially with it being so out of character for
Starting point is 01:01:25 me to do so would have had overall a positive consequence for the people who were thinking it but weren't writing it or the people that were thinking of writing it and actually do you know what sarah's getting much less of it now i'm getting much less of it now um so i think in a way it was almost like cost benefit analysis in a way you know i weigh these things up i think there's always going to and i've been thinking a lot lately because of um there was a couple of my friend is the global head of social media at manchester united right and there's a lot of black players right and so when the team loses what you see on the black players instagrams there's lots of monkey emojis and um it's actually awfully
Starting point is 01:01:58 my friend called me he said what do we do about this right and he said we're going to take this stance um as a club and you know they we talked a little bit about it on like our whatsapp group or whatever and the club stood up changed the cover photos and said like manchester united against racism the players got more racism because shining a light on it yeah it's like it's almost like it's not a real thing how do i explain this it's it could be some 14 year old kid who who's leaving these monkey emojis who is actually quite an okay person but they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention right they see you or marcus rashford is not really a real human right and an idol and so they think just leaving they're not like an inherently bad person but when you get anonymity
Starting point is 01:02:40 and you get and we all have this you know envy in us that comes from somewhere you know the lifeboat analogy right and so like i i'm what i'm i don't know what i'm basically saying is like i don't think we're ever going to be able to cure that problem with the only way i've actually seen is i think you'd kill 99 of it if your social networks went anonymous and you had to upload your passport because i think if you connect real world consequences to behavior i fully agree it's why you don't get your dick out in public it's well not well that's not why but it's like that's the only reason it's why you don't go up to someone and say those things in public because there's real world consequences i totally agree i think i think people should have there should be some sort of like identification process when you set up an account i totally agree with it because the amount i get the amount sarah gets um is it's a
Starting point is 01:03:26 real bloody shame as well because especially because these people are like supposed to be and i use this in inverted commas fans they're supposed to care about my life my existence they're supposed to you know they followed me for a reason yeah um and i refuse to believe especially because i'm i like to think i'm a force of positivity. I talk real talk and I share real things. But even when I'm talking about mental health or a bigger issue, I do so from a stance of positivity, right? At least I try to. So I refuse to believe that somebody is that negative or hates me that much.
Starting point is 01:03:59 But in six million, you've got, I don't know, six, how many followers have you got? Across everything, I think. I've got two on YouTube, two on on insta just over two on twitter i don't know about facebook you know six seven eight whatever but then you're reaching more people you know the people that follow you aren't the ones that you're reached yeah of course if you took that many people and thought probabilistically how many of them would just not be like okay people but have the capability of sending an awful message yeah there's gonna be a fucking thousands yeah you also guarantee that when i do like for example when i announced that sarah and i were pregnant
Starting point is 01:04:36 um i went on twitter and i was i was trending and like i haven't trended for years so i was going through it and 99% of it was really positive. But there was a lot of it that was just like, you know, a little bit of hate. And I had a really good time responding to some of it. Not like I wasn't saying anything, like, for example, someone was like, Jim Chapman still exists and he's not with Tanya and he's having a baby. Who knew? And I just retweeted it and responded going, I know, right?
Starting point is 01:05:03 What a turn up for the books I am. I'm still alive who are you so nothing like I didn't respond to real negativity just people going wow that's like that's a funny old story oh it's not Tanya and I really enjoyed
Starting point is 01:05:17 I actually found that good fun because by drawing attention to it these people were then like oh my god I love you you're the best. Because obviously I've let them know that I've seen it and that I'm not tolerating bullshit, but also I don't care enough
Starting point is 01:05:31 that I'm going to write something really negative back. I'm just sort of like, yeah, I see that. I acknowledge it. I am here. I'm also a human. And it's, yeah,
Starting point is 01:05:38 it's a really interesting sort of phenomenon that people can write what they want without any sort of consequences. But when you give them consequences, they'll suddenly be like, oh, wow, you've noticed me. Shall I tell you a really funny thing
Starting point is 01:05:51 that happened this week, this weekend, it was yesterday. There's a story that came out in the press, something that I had done. This kid had like DM'd me, he had made me a Wikipedia page and was like, I thought you deserve one, so I made one.
Starting point is 01:06:01 And I offered him a job in 10 minutes. I said, what a great show of initiative. You've shown your writing skills, like come work with us. It was in the papers. There's this like Facebook page where one of the articles in the papers was posted. There's 60 comments.
Starting point is 01:06:12 59 of them are like amazing, right? And then there's this one comment, which is like really fucking, it's like Steve Bartlett is like an evil guy. They said that I made a PR story out of the Manchester bombings because we raised a huge amount of we let our team have the day off right and we and we raised this huge amount of money for the families of the victims right and so he wrote all this awful stuff about me and I screenshotted it and I messaged the guy and I said could you like I sent him a
Starting point is 01:06:42 screenshot I mean could you explain this I've never seen someone just completely change. And I said, and one of the things I said to him was, would you be okay with me sharing this on my channels? Guess what he said. Well, obviously not. Absolutely not. And I was never going to share it on my channels. But I said, why wouldn't, why can't I share it in public?
Starting point is 01:06:59 Well, because he's written on a public forum, right? He's written on a public forum. Why can't I share it on my channels? Why wouldn't you like 3 million people seeing that? Right and he was like he literally i went do i have your permission to share this and he went absolutely not yeah i was like do i have your permission to respond to it publicly absolutely not and it was just fascinating to see the behavior because he obviously ate was in some facebook group didn't expect me to see it you know and this is i'm trying to over the last couple of i guess months trying to understand how to deal with this social media centric often group think driven because i'm
Starting point is 01:07:32 sure all the cheating stuff was one oh yeah it was a group of people and then they're like yeah yeah i would say tanya's never said anything um she's never come out and called me a cheater um she hasn't done the opposite like I have, if I'm being totally frank about it. Like, you know, I've sort of said there was nothing. You've addressed it. I've addressed it. I'm trying to, I moved on first.
Starting point is 01:07:55 Sure. As far as the world is concerned. You know what I mean? Like, it's really hard to say this without sort of making accusations or whatever, but as far as the world knows, I moved on first. It's not necessarily, I should stop there, but it's, it's tricky to be accused of something when they've only got limited information to, to use, right? So because people see that I moved on first,
Starting point is 01:08:29 they think that perhaps I cheated. So for me saying I didn't cheat and for Sarah saying I didn't cheat with Jim, it doesn't necessarily prove anything, right? Because of course we're going to say that because we want to deny our infidelity, right? And it's tricky to keep going back to and keep saying the same thing especially when it's so unfounded um but there's a point where you just have to let it go like you can't you can't change
Starting point is 01:08:59 everyone's opinion about like i said like there's, there's like a, a load of people watching you. They all have opinions on you, good or bad. And the perks of this job is that we get paid well for it and that we get to live a bloody adventure. Like it's so cool. I never expected this in my life. I never expected to be able to do the stuff I get to do and live the life I get to live. It was never planned out for me. I never had like the tools in place for it. I found myself here and I've grabbed on with both hands and I've worked really hard
Starting point is 01:09:30 to maintain it. So that's the perk of being in a position I'm in. Unfortunately, it comes with a few drawbacks, which is that people make opinions on you and you just have to
Starting point is 01:09:40 not care so much. Not easy though. It's not easy at all. Especially when they message your fiance. It's not easy at all, Especially when they message your fiance. It's not easy at all. Especially also when it's so untrue. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:09:55 And also there's no way to rectify it. There's no way I can rectify it. Or Sarah, basically. Yeah. That's difficult. That's really difficult. It is very difficult. Yeah. yeah and and you must have this you see these falsehoods in the comment sections you must instinctively be like oh that's not true and that's harmful to my relationship to whatever i need to fix that i still really value tanya we're still we're still mates so i i'm not
Starting point is 01:10:21 you know i'm never gonna i'm not going to make a big thing. I try to just, when it comes up in conversation, I'll just say, yeah, it's this. We grew apart, right? Because I respect her and I value her and I don't want to keep bringing it up all the time. Because also it doesn't define either of us. People break up all the time.
Starting point is 01:10:44 Unfortunately, they don't always break up in public. it doesn't define us we both still have our careers we both still have our lives we both still have our people um and that's very important it's just a shame that it comes up so frequently and it's so um untrue i had a sex therapist a relationship therapist on this podcast two weeks ago, and she said a really lovely sentence, which I haven't been able to forget. And she said, just because a relationship ends doesn't mean it wasn't successful. I still look at us as very successful. Yeah. Like I said, we ticked all our boxes.
Starting point is 01:11:17 The next thing for us was what I'm now doing with Sarah. And I see now that Tanya would not have been the person to do that with. You know, Sarah 100% is. And there are things that I have with her that I've never experienced before. And I'm very lucky. Like I said earlier, I feel like when Tanya and I started going separate directions, separate ways, it was earlier than I think either of us kind of gave credence to. And so if we had have done, you know,
Starting point is 01:11:46 if I had have done the things I'm now doing with Sarah, I don't think it would have been for the best, you know, whereas now I know that Sarah is my person. I've learned a lot. I know what I'm worth. I know what I can expect from a partner um and it's it's really I've never experienced it this way it's really lovely it's really fruitful it's really rewarding it's really dynamic and it's really reciprocal did you have a list of um attributes I was talking to a couple
Starting point is 01:12:18 of friends the other day um mixed gender group and one of them posed the question like what's on your list for an ideal partner um so you're with the partner so i'm saying i guess my question to you is what does what did you look for but and also i want you to answer the second question which is what does a partner need to offer jim in order to be a good partner uh okay well a partner needs to offer me i think um i i need to like i said earlier if i if i love someone i trust them 100 right i expect the same in return i can't deal with jealousy i can't deal with someone checking up on me if i'm out or if i'm doing something i i'm not gonna humor it because it's not me and i don't want anyone to consider that it might be me.
Starting point is 01:13:05 And if, as my partner, you're thinking, oh, he's out somewhere, he's with someone doing something he shouldn't be, then I haven't got time for it. So I expect that. But also I expect to be appreciated and reciprocated. You know, I know it's complicated. It doesn't happen all the time
Starting point is 01:13:25 there are times when you're in a bad mood or whatever but as i was walking here sarah text me saying i know i haven't said it those because um i'm just feeling really sick you know with the pregnancy and everything but she went my my baby has hit the jackpot with a dad you know and like i just want you to know i really do appreciate you um and i haven't said it much lately and that's that's that's all i need why does that matter to you so much? Because I want to know that I'm valued. And that's the thing for me. I don't care.
Starting point is 01:13:51 Why? Because if I'm going to give someone my all, and like I said earlier, if I'm in love with someone, they get everything. They get all my stuff. If it's stuff I care about, they get all my time. They get everything, right? And I need to know that there's value in me giving myself does that link to childhood at all perhaps yeah perhaps i've i just fully believe and maybe this is why i write love well i fully
Starting point is 01:14:17 believe that if i'm with someone they've got it all right i don't believe in i don't mean that in like a really um codependent way because that's like the worst you know if you're kind of encouraging each other into something i feel like you both need to live your lives independently but make a good team and like you when you team up together i think good stuff happens basically um and yeah perhaps Yeah, perhaps, but I think that I, for me, if I'm not, if I don't feel like I'm valued enough, I don't feel like my, I say sacrifice, it's not a sacrifice, but if I don't feel like what I'm giving isn't appreciated
Starting point is 01:15:00 or my worst nightmare is being tolerated. Like if I'm with someone and they just go, yeah, all right, and they just tolerate me, I'm out the door. Because I'm too good for that. Like I have value and everybody does. I'm not saying me as an individual. Each and every single person has their value, right?
Starting point is 01:15:19 They deserve to be appreciated for that value. And if they're with someone who doesn't appreciate it, takes it for granted, whatever, then you're not with the right person. You know, I think that you need someone who respects you and appreciates you and who sees your worth, perhaps more than you do.
Starting point is 01:15:40 I mean, I don't see myself that clearly sometimes. And Sarah will often say, like, you know, the text she sent me saying, you know, my baby's hit the jackpot with the dad that they've got coming up is, you know, that means a lot to me. I haven't had a chance to reply yet, but I will after this. And that is a really big thing. It's such little effort for her to send, but it means a shit lot to me. Have you heard about love languages yeah have you ever done the old love language test no have you ever you know i tend
Starting point is 01:16:10 not to not i don't believe in that stuff i just tend not to um i think ignorance is bliss sometimes because if i'm super aware of it then i don't know if it's like i said earlier with the therapy right when you're aware of your your thing your stuff yeah and then you do it more like ah and until you learn the tools of how to overcome it or how to at least challenge it it's frustrating and i feel like if i learned that i was this way inclined every time i did that go call me like apparently i'm apparently i'm like the archetypal capricorn you want to do your love languages now go on shall we yeah i did mine and it's actually really you know i'm not that guy i'm not like a i'm not i don't look at this
Starting point is 01:16:50 the sun and decide what's going to happen tomorrow because of where the planets are i'm not that guy but the the love language thing is based on asking you a bunch of questions about like what you value more so ultimately comes up with an answer and it says jim chapman values when someone does this and yours would be words of affirmation or recognition mine is slightly different as we'll talk about my name but interesting um we're gonna do your love language this is gonna drive me mental for the rest of my life like i said like apparently i am the most archetypal capricorn and every time i do anything it's sort of capricorny now and i never really believed in this sort of stuff every time i do anything now i'm like damn it my bloody stars told me or something okay here
Starting point is 01:17:25 we go okay so me and jim have just completed the full love language survey which took um about 10 minutes and his results why am i nervous i know everything about you and i'm looking at all of your results yeah um so it says and this is not surprising this is what i expected from our conversation up until that point right jim's primary love language is words of affirmation right actions don't always speak louder than words if this is your love language unsolicited compliments mean the world to you hearing the words i love you are important hearing the reasons behind that love sends your spirits skyward insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten. Kind, encouraging and supportive words are truly life-giving to you. And you rank as a 33% on words of affirmation, which is high.
Starting point is 01:18:12 You rank as 3% on receiving gifts, 17% on acts of service, and then physical touch and quality time, you rank the same. Okay. I would say gifts, I think it might mean more to somebody else i think that my job comes with a lot of stuff yeah so i don't really care about it so much um i'd agree with that um like i said earlier i we got lots of hate and it bounces off but if the hate comes from someone i love yeah that's an issue yeah if it's an insult as well that's an insult yeah yeah yeah that's that's a problem if it comes from someone that I care about.
Starting point is 01:18:45 Yeah, do you know what? I'm really lucky because Sarah does all of that. She actually does most of everything, which is great. And genuinely, I'm very fortunate to have her. She is everything that I want. And I use the word want and not need because I think that's the difference between codependency and like a healthy relationship. I don't need her I would be fine my life would continue but she brings a little uh a little spice a little something extra you know what I mean
Starting point is 01:19:15 and and it's much more enjoyable to have her by my side for everything for sure what's next for you then you're working on a lot we were talking talking about this off air. Yeah, I am. I'm always working on stuff. Like I said, I just love creating. So I have just started a production company with my friend. We started in January or February last year. So just as the world exploded. But actually, do you know what? It's given us the chance to really knuckle down.
Starting point is 01:19:40 And we've got some really good headway so far. We're having lots of big conversations with important people and people seem to like our stuff um i we do scripted and unscripted so i head up the unscripted sorry i have the scripted stuff so my writing so far we've got a couple of films on the go writing a book um i'm also working on a like a like a show like a series um and we've got a bunch of unscripted stuff that I also chip in on. Um, but that's very much James.
Starting point is 01:20:08 My, my, my business partner is very much his sort of, um, wheelhouse. Um, and the difference in time it all takes. So he's constantly having meetings and constantly like churning stuff out.
Starting point is 01:20:18 Whereas my stuff takes a lot longer. So I often feel like I'm not pulling my weight, but then I'll send him, like I just sent him a document yesterday, which is 20,000 words long, which took me two weeks to write. And it's like an entire breakdown, beat by beat of how I see this new thing working.
Starting point is 01:20:31 And he's like, oh, so you're doing stuff. So it's weird. But I think we both are really invested. We're both really good at what we do. We're successful in our own rights. But I think there's something special about working on something that's just for passion. We don't need our own rights. But I think there's something special about working on something that's just for passion.
Starting point is 01:20:47 We don't need this to work. We just really, really want it to. And that's really exciting, you know? If they say, oh, you know, Jim Chapman was a success 10 years from now, what would they mean? What would that mean to you? I mean, for me, if I was saying about myself, it would mean that I, in terms terms of work it would mean that i
Starting point is 01:21:07 was respected in my field um it would mean that people who my contemporaries appreciated my input but more than that if it were just in general success it would mean i got out okay you know what i mean i came out the other side of this and um i have i'm content for me contentment is sort of like a a goal you know i don't think it is for many people um i don't want to stress about stuff unnecessarily i don't want to constantly strive for more um i don't feel like it's necessary i want to be really happy with what i've got and i have that very in spades with my people my family my friends um sarah my baby on the way i've got more contentment than i can throw a stick at i don't have it in terms of my career because i'm
Starting point is 01:21:59 constantly worried about where it goes so you ever i hope i do i hope i i think what what it would take is um a project that is very successful say with my writing and then people come to me rather than me constantly knocking on doors you know what i mean it'd be really nice to be in a position to go hey you wrote that thing and it did really well i want to give you opportunities now rather than me chasing it and i have that in terms of the social media Like I'm very lucky to be in a position I'm in, which is sort of, I've been doing it for a very long time and have a good name for myself. So people often come to me. I don't have it in my, the other part of my job and I'd love that, but I'm still new at it. I've only been doing it, you know, like I say, I've been writing the first
Starting point is 01:22:36 screenplay for three and a half years, but that only got to a point where it was worth talking about a year ago, you know? So it's still very much in its infancy so i just hope that i get to a point where people um like my stuff and go you know what you're really good at this let's let's work with you on this project you're in the proving yourself phase right i think so in terms of this new industry yeah and uh and a lot of people are a lot of very talented people are and in fact it appears we actually had noel clark right in the chair before you yeah i don't know yeah and uh he talks about his own journey and he was knocked back so many times by the industry um that he was like fuck it i had to eventually try and create my own path like create my own movies and he's now at a point where you
Starting point is 01:23:17 know if he's got an idea he's not necessarily knocking on doors or having to audition yeah you know there's multiple he churns them out yeah yeah he's killing it um and he's what 15 years into that get 20 years into that game it takes a long time and a lot of it unfortunately is who you know not what you know yeah um timing success luck all of that um but you know i i if it doesn't happen it won't be through lack of trying um and i won't hold it against myself i'm not going to be i won't feel like a failure um because i don't i don't really believe in that i believe you can be a failure if you if you quit and you never try you never try it's all right but if you don't make it and you've and you've given it a good bloody shot then you know you've done better than most yeah i said that i tweeted the other day and
Starting point is 01:24:00 i was in the gym and i thought about it and i thought you know the concept of worry and fear are so illogical because you know no human has ever done more than their best right and even on my shit days where i'm like really unproductive and whatever bad mood or whatever that was actually still my best that day yeah by definition so this you know um but it's fascinating and i um i looking over your story in your career, one of the key things I saw was this temptation from you to like resist your labels and to not be sucked into the world telling you who you are.
Starting point is 01:24:32 Yeah, I think it doesn't really, you know what, it's one of those things where you meet people and the second question they ask you is what you do for a living. The first being, hi, what's your name, right? And there's more to all of us than what we do. Like I said earlier, my job isn't what I do, my job is what I do, not living the first being hi what's your name right and there's more to all of us than what we do like i said earlier my job isn't what i do my job is what i do not who i am right so
Starting point is 01:24:49 i don't like being jim chapman youtuber you know um stifling it's like a box it's totally a box and in the same way that instructions doesn't the same way that you know an accountant might not want to just be called an accountant you know there's more to him he's got his own life and whatever um i just feel like it's it's pigeonholing and it's tricky in this industry because people don't like you being good at more than one thing if you're written about um in the press or whatever it's probably for you entrepreneur i'd imagine right for me it's youtuber still um and actually like i say that's a small part of i upload one video a week and i've only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant because now it's YouTuber still. And actually, like I say, that's a small part of, I upload one video a week and I've only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant
Starting point is 01:25:26 because now it's exciting to talk about stuff. Other than that, I haven't uploaded for six months. You know what I mean? So there's more to us. We're allowed to explore new avenues, do new things. But I think for the sake of... Society understanding who, which box you fit in, right? Because in the articles, they have to use a word
Starting point is 01:25:43 so that the reader knows. And they can't jim chapman and then list your your skills yeah yeah so they're like box which box right and i understand it because it's it's how we even down to like you know the a simple individual level we all stereotype yeah yeah i mean that's just that's psychologically, it makes sense. Survival. Totally, and it gives us sort of like categories to work from. You're walking down the street and you see every single person as an individual, there's sensory overload. So you see someone in, say, a certain clothing and a suit,
Starting point is 01:26:17 you're like, oh, okay, you're a banker. He might not be, he might just like wearing a suit, but in your head, that's what he's done because it's easier just to sort of carry on with the day compartmentalize imagine if we didn't imagine if you know lion running towards us we thought i wonder if this is a good lion i said this to sarah just the other day we're having a conversation quite a heated conversation about something and um she's i call her worst case scenario sarah quite a lot because she often will catastrophize right and i said you're the kind of person that sees someone running and you assume they're running from i don't know a crime or a gun or something i'm the kind of person that assumes they're running towards a bus because i i i see the world as neutral right i don't think the world has an opinion on me um but i see my people as
Starting point is 01:27:03 positive and i know there's lots of negativity out there but um i don't see the world as that kind of place in general whereas some people i think are geared up to think the worst it's like um you know the whole fight and flight thing um some people are good i think i think i'd probably die right because i'd be geared up to see a stick as a stick whereas actually it makes much more sense to see a stick as a snake because on the one time it is a snake you don't die yeah whereas i'd go it's a stick and then get bitten and die um so i think uh if it were 200 000 years ago i would be no good but actually in today's society i do all right because i just like to see i think inherently i just see the world as a neutral or or at best positive um i don't want to think that everybody running is running from an
Starting point is 01:27:46 explosion you know it's just not the way i choose to see the world i think that's a much healthier way to see the world i like to think so i think it'll take you much further um but anyway listen thank you so much for your time today i think you're an incredibly inspiring guy not least because of what you've achieved but because of your willingness to be honest thank you i think you know a lot of the stuff you've shared about your childhood and being open as a man about you you know the impact therapy has had on you i think is such an admirable thing and even your call to you know to men to go to therapy i think is something that i can completely get behind right um there's been so much stigma around it for you know you know a bunch of
Starting point is 01:28:22 historical reasons as a society we're overcoming but i but i really applaud you for that and i'm super excited to see what you do next you're you know you're clearly someone that's a brilliantly talented b it's incredibly hard working and um yeah and that that mixed with your your um so that your huge amount of self-awareness i think is going to make for some unbelievable i i hope so um i also think that it could go totally the opposite way. But either way, you know, I will, I know whatever I do, I'll do to the best of my ability, you know? So if it doesn't go the way I intend, I'll find the next thing, you know?
Starting point is 01:28:59 I'm smart enough to do that. Thank you. Danke.

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