The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Jonny Wilkinson: Winning The World Cup Led To My Darkest Days

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Jonny Wilkinson is one of the most famous rugby players of all time. With a career spanning two decades, he has won the rugby World Cup, the Premiership, the Heineken Cup, the Six Nations, and the Top 14. For all those years, people didn’t really know what drove Jonny. Because when he was playing rugby, Jonny never felt good enough. Even the highest achievements in the sport would hold back his insecurities for only a few minutes. The journey of how he was able to break this toxic cycle and appreciate himself and the world around him to the full is one of the most inspiring stories we’ve ever heard. Jonny’s own podcast, I Am, is available for download now. Follow Jonny: Twitter - https://twitter.com/JonnyWilkinson Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue i had to achieve i had to be perfect. I guess ultimately take on the suffering. The player of the tournament, Johnny Wilkinson. A genuine sporting legend. How much pressure has this man been under this week? For me, it was do or die on the field. So therefore, where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice. Here it is for Johnny.

This will go down in history. Was your mental health better or worse after that moment? When I was on the field in the zone I was operating at a level I couldn't even understand. Waking up the next morning you know leaves you in the cold light of day. I thought there was going to be joy here, I was convinced there isn't. I spent my life being very fit but not really that healthy. Health is about what fitness can come out of and unless you look after health it's dangerous. People say I wish I'd made more of my life, wish I'd enjoyed every moment but that starts with health. Working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone

but working on yourself tends to work for everyone. So without further ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. rugby and I remember watching you in my living room as a very very young kid on the screen in awe not just in that 2003 moment but but long before then and when I think about when I sit here with guests that are athletes or successful entrepreneurs whatever they might be they sometimes but not usually can give me a sort of a fairly accurate description of what happened in the earlier phases of life that would would mold them to become that champion or that CEO that they later were. You're someone that is incredibly self-aware. So I was very much looking forward

to asking you the same question, which is when you reflect on the early stages of your life, what were the like defining moulding experiences for better or for worse that you would point out and say, that's probably why, or at least that led to in part

who I became later in life um I think the best way of answering that would be to say that in my younger days and very young without any any kind of triggering events certainly not that I can um remember or ever ever sort of come into contact with I had enormous passion and some kind of adeptness for ball skills so if I had a ball in my hand things just made sense I could work out I could I could in my sort of head I could have a some some sort of target some sort of goal something to do with that ball and I could I could work it out that was part of the intelligence I had was just I could bring those things about relatively effortlessly and I had a real passion for exploring that it still is the case with me I still find myself

playing basketball and and often so much of this I'll do on my own because it's my relationship with that inner capacity I have that interests me not to show what I can do but it's that sense of I guess being at home and that's where a huge amount of the revelations I have in life come from from that kind of relationship however there was also another relationship which again without the triggering event I grew up with an immense sense of doom and fear about everything so i had this incredible sort of passion and inclination towards expressing myself with with balls and skills and and and in competition as well but the competition side was a need that wasn't a desire the the achievement um all that stuff was obsessive um but from a negative perspective because i had this sense of doom surrounding

everything that was my disconnect if you like i saw other people handling situations that seemed so simple to them but for me me, insurmountable. And yet when they looked at me with regards to, oh, you know, with a ball in my hand, what they thought was impossible for me just was relatively straightforward. And I think those two sides of my path meant that I had this constant drive

to just find myself in a garden with a ball in my hand. That's all hours of the day and night most of the time it's all i talk about all i talked about all i spoke about all i did and yet on the other hand i had this ever-present fear that i built this if you like defense defense mechanism, coping strategy, but ultimately identity around how to somehow survive that fear. And that, that, for me, that mechanism I put in place was I had to achieve, I had to be perfect. And I had to, I guess, ultimately take on the suffering and and live that kind of martyr savior stroke warrior archetype and as such I found myself really really uncomfortable with when things were seemingly going well it it just, you know, I found that horrendously

difficult to handle. As a result, I would revert to that defense mechanism of creating problems if there weren't. So I was constantly looking in a state of kind of survival for where the next problem was, because I was convinced with this ever present sense of fear that there was a threat and it was there. And so and so yeah those two paths essentially weaved in and out with each other throughout my entire life but there was no doubt that my ability on the field at times to be in that zone was where I felt my genius but at the same time the other strength I had was that for me it it was do or die on the field. So therefore, where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice.

Yeah, the fear didn't just drop off and let me just sit down for a bit. So I could go and go and go and go. When you talked about your childhood there, you said, despite there being a traumatic event that had created this kind of perspective you had about this sort of fear, but also this kind of perspective you had about um this sort of fear but also this sense of real peace and homeness you described it when you have a ball yeah um your dad phil was a a rugby player and a football player uh cricket cricket yeah yeah yeah rugby and cricket yeah that's just two things okay what was his influence on you because it's

you know when i when i read that he was also a sports player in his own right, that's kind of typically the story you expect to hear. I sat here with Eddie Hearn as well. His dad works in the same business. I've sat here with CEOs, their dad works in the same business. And the interesting thing I connected, and I'm not making any assumptions here, that's why I'm asking the question is, in the case of Eddie, in the case of Um umar kamani who

is at boohoo they describe a very similar thing a real sense of kind of almost innate feeling of pressure to succeed and they also at times couldn't necessarily tell you where it comes from was did you either of your parents play a role in that in that perceived sense of pressure to succeed no i sort of like i said i'm heavily into the introspective side of all this and and part of that kind of search now for potential is is where that's moved it used to be grabbing the external and trying to expand physically you know what more can i have what more can how can more people know my name or everything that could almost you know expand my reach and and and presence on a physical level now no really no longer interests me it's it's how to allow my presence you know in that non-physical space um and my sort of

journey of looking into that has meant you know i've i've questioned everything and yeah my my upbringing was was you know fantastic in terms of that you know and uh i had every opportunity to go and do what i wanted to do um i have my brother there as well and my parents all sporty but there was just something in me which had latched on yeah and this is something I feel maybe it's something I brought with me into this world from a you know like a karmic positioning whereby I was always going to grab things that way I was I was susceptible to understanding things a certain way um but for me you know I I sort of pushed my parents hard yeah I can't imagine it was easy my brother too in the way that I was I was sort of pushed my parents hard. Yeah, I can't imagine it was easy.

My brother too, in the way that I was sort of, I challenged them in ways, you know, I didn't give up. And a lot of that, like I said, was, well, all of the irrational stuff came from the need. For them, it was baffling, but they had their lives and I appreciate that this is always the case, that people are always doing their best. And that's what I remember about our family the most is that everyone's always doing their best and I look at everyone now and realize that you know people are where they're supposed to be and just giving it their all and and what's been so so powerful for

me is just being able to switch that interest with what giving my best means is more of an unlocking and letting go and shedding than a what more can i grab and and you know where that path turned around is perhaps where you know where i felt the the true understanding of of what this journey's been about as opposed to where i was looking to where did it come from what happened here etc etc it's more of a kind of uh it was just about that you said something there which some people might skip over which is you said it might have been something you inherited karmically or you know and that reminded me of something i'd heard you say previously about being able to sort of inherit generational messages or um whatever that might be do you believe in that do you believe

that we're passing messages from one generation to another within within ourselves and that that is shaping our lives yeah i i believe that the the role of karma is basically a memory and it's that kind of it's it's the way we've remembered things. And whilst for me, for example, when I'm stuck in that really physical identification of this is who I am, as in I'm me, I'm Johnny, and then I do have a start to my story and an end. But as I've been sort of exploring and letting go a bit more of that,

that kind of physical identity of right now, I just tend to feel that it opens up a different understanding of memory. You know, if we're a process of that evolution, then the cells in our body have a memory that goes back a long, long way. Yeah, and that's impossible to separate, you know, where we come from from parents

and where they from their parents, from their parents, from their parents, you know, everything is all interconnected. but we put a stop and a start on it and it seems you know one of the things i find so so interesting when looking at that is that i'm very interested in the science side of it too and looking at the desire of science to find you know what it is that we're made of and yet they keep coming up with it's nothing and then they go to well what is it we're living in and they keep finding out that it's unending and yet who we are we seem to manage to say despite the fact it's made of nothing and it's unending we

found a way of saying but we're made of this we start here and we stop there it just doesn't make sense to me anymore whereas before you know you live in those boundaries what you see inherits those boundaries and i think as i've released those you start to not so much question but just allow for different understandings to take hold and one of those is that that you know i find it fascinating to look at yeah i've got a young child and i find it fascinating to look at children enter and they're all so different. How are they so different? And then you say, oh, well, it might be to do with how the parents have behaved

during the months preceding the birth. And yes, but even then, why are the parents behaving that way? It goes on and on. And it just goes back to the same way that I still believe that we're all doing our best, but there's a part which we bring with us into this space. And, you know, I feel like there is nature and there's that nurture side, but that nurturing has been going on forever. And it's important that we have a bias and a stance because without it i don't think you can have this physical experience unless there's something

holding you in it and i think that's the point is to find out what that is and and engage with it embrace it and enjoy it and what is holding you within this physical experience what is your stance so so interesting that question you know at the beginning i'd have said um oh you know this well i'm telling you about my fear and then i'm talking about my need to survive and then unlocking that and going beyond it and you think i understand it and you get challenged again oh where did that come from oh i think I understand that now and I feel so much but challenged again where do these challenges keep coming from and I think that's the the part of me understanding what my stance is is an ongoing process an ongoing process of just enjoying challenge and embracing it I think I use the kind of expression when I talk to some of the guys I

I train with and and when they're doing this sort of kicking with the rugby is that it's all about sort of finding that absolute peace and an inner environment that allows you to go and explore this opportunity you've got ahead of you and every time you find it you can't find that state it's because you're holding on to something it's never because you don't know something or because you haven't learned something it's because you're holding on to something you don't need and you have sessions right at the end of it people are feeling like i feel amazing and you're kind of thinking yeah great just wait till tomorrow because this idea is tomorrow i'll still feel amazing but then the

next day you're how do you feel i don't know i just feel a bit like this why it's because each of those sessions that we're doing it's like a light that shines into your your garage where you think you've cleared out all the bags in your garage that you don't need anymore and then you think that's all clear and then a slightly brighter light comes in the next day and you're like oh there's loads of stuff over there i didn't see that i'd better go and clear that now that the more you clear the more space you find in there but to think you're going to get to the end of that for me to think i'm going to sort of find out why i'm here what i think i'm going to find out is it's my choice to be here and that's the beautiful part is the

proactive reason for being here as we said in the question it was like what's holding you here i think now probably the the way i really see that is is what's my calling what's my purpose when that's fulfilled uh that'll be an interesting moment but i don't see that being anytime soon it's really interesting reframing of the situation because we you're right we spend our lives looking for some kind of external given reason for us our own existence but flipping that and saying well yeah i'm choosing to be here and i'm choosing to be here because of the purpose that i've decided on um is a really powerful thing because yeah i mean in my dms and messages i get from kids it's this kind of outside external search for this easter egg that they were born to find called their passion and their purpose

yeah and when they can't find the singular Easter egg somewhere, they fall into such tremendous, like frustration and feelings of inadequacy. I haven't found my purpose. That means I'm a piece of shit. And, you know, that kind of, that spiral downwards. One of the things you, you touched on there was the feeling of peace and, you know, and then the, and also just before that, you talked about letting go of something because we're holding onto something. And that thing often is identity and expectation. Something I've definitely done in my life is held too much onto a sense of identity. And that's really caused me lots of problems. As I read through your story, starting from your very early days in Newcastle to later it became

apparent that you were you're holding more and more onto this expectation and identity which you'd earned from your accomplishment and that was having a detrimental impact on your peace yeah so talk to me about identity and the journey you've been on there um I think for me perhaps overriding understanding and it comes I think from a lot of the way I dealt my sort of immature days of trying to understand that fear and what was going to transcend it what was going to help me transcend it and that understanding was I'll solve it and when I solve it, this fear machine will suddenly turn into a joy machine. My suffering is going to result in joy.

Interestingly enough, by feeding that fear with all the reassurance, whether it be hours and hours and hours of kicking or training that's telling me, you know, giving me the greatest guarantee I could possibly hope for, which was no guarantee at all, never did did anything but it never sort of fulfilled itself satisfied itself but that was the best i could do to try and reassure the fear of that moment would say look i can do it you don't have to worry i can do it but of course as soon as i stopped doing it the fear comes back and says can you really do it better do another one and so trying to solve it by feeding reassurance to a fear machine the fear machine just becomes a bigger fear machine that

needs more reassurance to get the same hit trying to get that that same hit just meant more more reassurance so you're building i was building greater habits and needs to keep suffering so i could keep solving so you lock yourself into that cycle. And that cycle, when you're locked into it, compared to when you're not, that's the only difference between why you speak about expectation and fear of failure and pressure. It's just because you're in the cycle.

It's not a reality to life. It's the reality to the cycle, certainly to my cycle and when i'm outside of that when i'm feeling good for example in the middle of the game where you're you're in the zone if you could articulate anything in that sort of mind space you know what's the pressure like in there what are you talking about how can there be a pressure to now when you're in the now there's no consequences to the now because it's now there's no then or before or after so you can't have consequences you can't have pressure it's now and so deeply understanding that versus the cycle i guess was where i realized what i was trying to do with all this identity was answer something

was answer a problem the identity was creating the problem and the identity was about solving the problem I had to keep the problem to keep the identity and I had to keep try solving it to keep the identity as well and it was never going to go anywhere and I think my big issue with all that was I was trying to answer something I was trying to find as we said before in a world made of nothing universe made of nothing that's that's ever ongoing I was trying to answer something. I was trying to find, as we said before, in a world made of nothing, universe made of nothing that's ever ongoing, I was trying to find that answer. And that answer for me was, from an identity perspective,

was about working stuff out logically. And yet all my peace and my joy came from when my mind was being, I guess, inspired by my heart. I spent most of my time trying to almost, I guess, inform my heart through my head. What was I trying to do? I wasn't listening to that one moment where I felt beautiful and then learning from that. I was learning from the 99% where I was trying to do. I wasn't listening to that one moment where I felt beautiful. And then learning from that,

I was learning from the 99% where I was feeling so stressed and suffering. And I was using that as my guide. I was using my head as my guide. And I think undoubtedly the change in me has been to let go of the need to find an answer, to have that trust in that there is not going to be an answer.

There is going to be an an ever expanding beautiful journey which when you remove the answer it's no longer a journey because it's not going anywhere it's an adventure and then that's what the now feels like to me i think yeah for me that identity was a massive relative existence on a social level how did i measure up? How did I compare? All of that to do with trying to answer that problem. Basically, to have this fear, I'm somehow not worthy or deserving of having what I want,

how I want it. And therefore, I've got to manipulate it by looking for what's going to get in the way of it and how can I control that to see if I can get some of it anyway. Instead of that feeling when you're in the now which is this universe is working for me and we're friends we're not yeah we're not trying to enter into some kind of tricky sort of i don't know shady deal where you know we're both trying to con each other it's like no no we're we're in this together.

Some like zero-sum game where one of you can win and the other one, yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah, for me, that was always the guess why you could never rest easy because something went well. That was the time to be like, oh, you know, this is where your life might've lost out because I'm doing well. So life's not gonna, how's life gonna come back

and get me because I've just tricked life. You know, I've gotten something out of it and it's now like i just kind of want repayment for this and you're gonna get injured or something you're gonna get injured or you and and i guess in a way when you pride yourself on that perfectionism and the achievements and the which achievements basically also comes down to how other people see you feel about you what they think of you and when you sort of you know when you enter into to that kind of space it's uh you know humiliation is perhaps the biggest fall you know that's the one when you pride yourself so much on being perfect the thing that scares the the hell out of you i think on from a physical perspective it's living and

dying on an identity level it's humiliation and yeah that was at the basis of a lot of the training was it would be so humiliating for me and the more well-known you become the greater the opportunity of humiliation when you're the unknown it's kind of like doesn't matter too much you know when you're playing down at the park and you miss one no one's watching you kind of like i can handle that but you know 80 000 people millions on tv when everyone knows you and they're all thinking don't worry he's got this yeah that's the moment your your battle with you know fear perfectionism whatever you want to call it ultimately led to an obsession on the training ground right because you described that obsession on the training ground right because you described that obsession

on the training ground is actually a distraction from the fear that like really never worked in terms of filling the void um i i sat here when you were saying that and i said if johnny at 16 17 18 or before had the mindset you have now would he ever have become the player he went on to become? Like if a 16 year old who is very similar to Johnny is listening to this right now, and he takes on all the advice that you're giving about being present and, you know, removing the fear and living without expectation, et cetera,

and living in the now, would that increase or reduce his chances of becoming World Cup champion? Yeah, it's a good one. And in some ways I'd have answered that quite simply by saying it was when I was at my best that I was already doing this.

So at 17, 18, when I was on the field in the zone i was operating at a level i couldn't even understand and that's because i i was having the mindset that i'm talking about now right so i was already having it and it was in those moments that i really shone so it's not like i never had it it's just that when i did have it in those years i knew i was onto something it's just the relationship i had was that in order to to get in the zone i need to suffer like mad and the more i sort of like started succeeding and feeling a bit of the zone the more i said i better suffer some more the more suffering the more zone but of course you just overload the suffering and you've got no room left for anything now and I think working with guys now is the best way to answer this is that I'm kind of answering that question

by working with people in that younger space and one thing that's certainly you know it's actually very it's impossible to do anyway but it's it's also not the right idea is to remove too much of someone's suffering because you remove growth so when I say suffering probably challenges is a better word you know obviously we don't want anyone to suffer but if you remove too much of the challenge, you remove the opportunity for growth. So in a way, I was going to have challenge then in whatever form. And I needed challenge. I needed, just like saying, if you keep winning all the time, you just see a plateau in your performance. And so I didn't want people to agree with me all the time.

I didn't want to be written about in the paper as being the best all the time. As much as asked me before the game I'd have said please just let me know everything's perfect but actually looking back those challenges those moments of conflict it's what asks you to step up and go again so I needed the challenge I needed all that suffering but it's just where it crosses the line and becomes counterintuitive and counterproductive, there needs to be an understanding of how to relate to the challenge so that you don't face the same one over and over again. I think that's what I would have been interested to see was,

you know, if you'd have gained some ground on that challenge then, what other challenge would have come? Not that would have been it, but it would have been a different route to see. But it's largely irrelevant. It's not something I ever think about because it's got what I've been through and what I've experienced in that way doesn't make me anything. Yeah. The past doesn't make the now the now is the now um and i think yeah who i am is how i relate to that now and if i'm carrying around this big idea of how i got here and what i've understood i'm just separating myself from the now and that's so big if i come

into the now saying here i'm bringing a past in can i get in the door they're now saying no no that key doesn't fit you can't bring the past in here you have to choose you're going to live you're going to live sort of disconnected from the now and you can have your past or if you're going to allow that and and have a different relationship with that then you can have more of me you can have more of the now I think that's uh the same goes with the future you know the more you carry your past the more you're you're carrying your future at the same time but that same same principle applies you know if you really want the now it's a case of well you've got to align with it and ask the now you know what's the now trying to do nothing what are you trying to do something okay

well there's the disconnect and I think that's been huge in those moments on i always come back to that moment on the field when i'm in the zone your identity's gone you you just know it's me doing this it's me trying to do this there's just doing as it was happened with the 2003 drop goal. It's the one moment that I can say genuinely it was happening without me involved. I was able to embrace it and enjoy it and experience it, but there was no me trying to do it. It happened whilst I was in it, but it wasn't me doing it.

Is that alluding to the fact that you were in a flow state in that moment? Yeah, I mean, whatever flow state means to anyone, it's basically that kind of understanding. I guess that there was, for me, what felt like a very, very immediate relationship between what I was desiring and intending on the inside and the manifestation of

it was almost instantaneous as opposed to the way people look at it, which is like, I've got my goals and, and over time, you know, they're going to come together to form this. It was, it was almost kind of instantaneous in that respect. And that's's that's where that sense of past and future disappeared because it was inside outside were you lost their separation was your mental health um better or worse after that moment um i think it was a a sort of catalyst for maybe a deepening or intensifying or an acceleration of what was already in place. Definitely. But it wasn't a brand new thing.

It was just a bit of a, a deeper, I guess, experience of it. For better or for worse? For, um, I mean, guess depending on how you look at the challenge,

it was, uh, for example, the emptiness was just a bit more severe because winning the world cup was the main goal. So winning the game and the sixth, the other, the grand slam slam or or getting selected for this or that were huge goals and the little parts of emptiness afterwards that came um were was a bit less because one it wasn't the main goal and two also because it wasn't the main goal the net the main goal was still place, which meant you were therefore still moving towards something.

I think because the main goal was so important, but also afterwards there wasn't that clarity of where I go next. Yeah, that was a bit of a deeper drop into that space of what's this all about? And how does that feel in detail? You describe that as a deeper drop. Just a sense of confusion and sort of bewilderment with the idea that there was a promise here. There was a promise, albeit one I've made to myself,

but such a deep, such a strong one and a well-defined one that said, it's going to happen. I've worked hard for this. I've done all I was asked I've done all I asked myself to do again I keep sort of you know I can't abide by the idea that you know that there is this somehow this external I used to use the blame and the you sort of offset that responsibility and hand it over to something on the outside to say oh yeah that's why I'm feeling

this way but now you know it all comes from the inside. But even so, that promise felt strong. It felt real. It felt, I mean, you feel a bit sort of cheated, but also confused because there is no one to blame. There is nothing to grab. There's nothing tangible that says, you know, that stood there saying,

you know, well, yeah, I got you there, didn't I? It's like, where now? What now? And then there's also a little bit of that extra confusion as to say, well, what's the point of the next one? The promise was that you'd receive some kind of euphoric joy and fulfillment. Definitely.

Yeah. It is the Hollywood ending. But of course, Hollywood films have that privilege of the credits coming up and, and leaves you with your imagination and your imagination. It always just, it's not in detail, but you just think,

wow, how great for them. But of course, should that camera carry on for even another hour, you get, you get something in there and, and yeah, that's all it took after the world cup final you know

we went to a private party and you're sort of thinking oh we'll go there and have a chance to chat that's going to be great and when you get there it's oh these people you know that this isn't private why are they letting you know i can't even get here to see there's no space you know it's already in it's going and and but i think yeah waking up the next morning's a big one that night's sleep you know leaves you in the cold light of day when it's all you know you're looking sort of at the at the room and the hotel and it's it's it's just as is and it's it's not shining you know said this before a few times i've spoken there aren't people waiting outside the door willing to hoist you on their shoulders and carry you down to breakfast where you've got your own special table it just it is but it's so powerfully kind of beautiful in that way and the way that it

allows you to at some point understand that there's also a really great reason for why you feel that way because it's just it's a it's a pointer to there's a disconnect here it's nothing to do with what's going on the outside it's just there's a misunderstanding here and an opportunity but that opportunity as you said how do you move on to the next one it involves some vulnerability because you can't walk in the shoes of the same identity but head in that other direction the identity is the direction you're heading in you need you know a new identity a more spacious one a more open one but that's vulnerability that's you know to to do that you have to shed shed those solid lines you've drawn up which have kept you safe and given you your standoutness to others.

They can see you because you've drawn yourself in solid lines. You can say, this is who I am, and you can talk about yourself in that way. And it feels like that's purpose and that's kind of meaning and worth. But it's asking you to let that go and that's humiliation as we're talking about it's a humbling journey and it's vulnerability and i wasn't ready for it at that time definitely not what also didn't help was the the game after that i first played after that for my club was two weeks later and in that game i crossed the line on a neck injury it'd been building for a long long time over years

and in that game it properly went and I spent the next couple of months without being able to move my arm and then surgery and all this talk about you may never come back and of course you've gone from this is what I do this is who I am to I don't really know what's going on anymore and now I can't even do what I do so I can't even be those solid lines I can't present do what I do. So I can't even be those solid lines. I can't present anymore. Now I'm watching other people do it. So it's an amazing coming together of circumstance to really point you and say, hey, what do you think?

Should we have a look at something else? It's like, nah. So I was on the exercise bike the day after my neck operation with a neck brace on. My brother came in and saw me. We were living together. Saw me and sort of said what are you doing and it's the need I've got to get back to where I was and this is such a powerful thought is that we want growth you want progress you want to advance and to explore and find new things and yet the way I was going to do that was going back that's how I was going to find new stuff I have to get back to who I was and how I was

and yet deep inside me what I wanted was and what I began my journey was I want to find out what I'm capable of what I was actually saying in this moment was I want to go back to what I've had to where I've been that was a big big moment I just wasn't quite ready to listen to it and as soon as you do get back which I did for a little bit before getting injured again and again and again which was the stress of all that that need and obsession it's enough because just enough of the old habits and the triggers come in with people around you saying oh you're doing great so good to have you back in it i'm back but of course it just it's just enough to hold you off making that that step in the other direction and uh yeah

that came later on i i resonate so much with that and my my moment of i guess which is analogous to your moment of being injured and being trying to be back on the bike was when i resigned from my company i kind of looked at it and fell into the belief that if I spend the rest of my life living out these labels that I've earned through my accomplishments social media CEO or like entrepreneur or whatever I would likely end up abandoning my true self and probably end up in like some kind of midlife crisis so at that point as I write about my book my objective became if I had no labels labels, who would I be? And trying to really live a life

free from my confining identity and be free to be the full expression of myself is the journey I find myself in now. Is that what you mean when you say you were trying to get to the point of understanding all you can be? Is that what you're describing there? I think what comes to mind when you're saying that for me was and it's also another way of looking at the identity thing

i think you're speaking about is that the more i've released those boundaries of identity the more creative i've become and there's nothing more creative than being in that zone as I say when those boundaries are gone you're so creative that you suddenly see things and you put you join dots together in ways that you can't imagine they could ever have been and yet it's so easy it's so effortless creativity is an is an effortless kind of capacity that we have it's not one that needs trying to be involved when you're becoming creative you don't try to be creative that's the whole point of not being creative is you allow and you explore and what comes out is surely more of what's really who we are and i think the thing for me and and that was that as a child i had that i had that creative ability. And what I did was I embraced and I celebrated my creativity.

As I got older, what I did was I held on to my creation. And that was another way of saying identity. So as I began to attach myself to what it was I was creating, instead of exploring the creativity and the process, there I formed the identity. Because the identity is look at what i create you can't have an identity as a creator because then it's still look at what i create i'm a creator but to have no identity i think in that respect to be nothing on the inside

as they say is to be everything on the outside allows you you to create. And therefore, such a real interesting moniker, or marker rather for me is, how creative do I feel right now? And to set the environmental conditions internally for creativity, effortlessness, relaxation, excitement, passion, and ultimately on the spiritual level, worthiness. And I think that, you know, when I say about for me,

that's been where it's changed because you can't be fully creative and insist upon the creation, how it's going to turn out. And needing that guarantee, that's control. I'm going to be so creative as long as it turns out like this. So you're not going to allow it to go anywhere new. You're not creating anything. You're almost, you've got a blueprint, you're organizing. And I didn't, after a while, I think I realized I didn't want to organize and manage my talent.

I wanted to celebrate it. And like you said, be all you realized I didn't want to organize and manage my talent. I wanted to celebrate it. And like you said, be all you can be. I want to see where it can go. I want to, and all I can be means going beyond identity. The best I can be means within my identity. The best ever is within a very small identity. You want to be the best ever. That's a very small identity.

And you went through those three phases, right? You write about the first phase was you wanted to be the best ever. Then you wanted to be the second one that's a very small identity and you went through those three phases right you write about the first phase was you wanted to be the best ever then you wanted to be the second one was your best i can be the best you can be and the third is you want to be which is where you find yourself now all you can be yeah it just determines the strength of the idea or opinion behind it i want to be the best ever is a very strong idea this is there some game right yeah yeah and that's hugely massive comparison massive competition massive measuring up massive dependence upon other people's views yeah how do you know you're the best ever because someone says i do right i'm gonna work on you i'm not gonna work on myself

i'm gonna work on your opinion um the second one the best i can be is is an idea still what's my best well i was good then so it needs to be that but a bit more okay it's still a strong idea you're still limiting yourself all i can be is looking at the eye not looking at the rugby player yeah because the best i can be is okay i'm going to be the best father i'm going to be the best and these are all great pursuits but they still don't match up to what about just this being? How much can I be in terms of how can I explore my being? The best I can be still shifts over to doing. The best ever is all about doing.

It's all about physicality. Best I can be, a bit less. All I can be drops the physical, and that's where creativity comes in. You know, being creative physically means moving stuff around being creative which is effort but being really creative means you can sit and just be and that's where I think all the all the opportunities there'll be people listening to this that are you know they left university they went to school and now they're a lawyer and they've been a lawyer for 15 years. Or they might be, I don't know, a dentist. Now

they've been a dentist for 20 years. And a lot of the time when I speak to these people, there's this other voice inside them that's been suppressed over time, which is probably all they can be. And they've got really consumed in this identity, which they're like parents wanted them to adopt of being a doctor or a lawyer, whatever it might um it when i speak to these people they are seemingly trapped by something and um that that force that's trapping them seems to be so much stronger than the other voice which is which they sometimes can even point to as being a more fulfilling life which is i guess all they can be they want to go and be an artist yeah they speak to me before my show they show me their instagram and they're the most unbelievable artist i've ever seen in my life and they their face lights up when they talk about that thing but when i ask them what they do

they say yeah i work in the city i work in finance for like kpmg or something and you can see the dread in their face yeah how does someone start the journey and i think you alluded to vulnerability there but how does someone start the journey of going from that place of you know confinement and identity and i am this thing that i've earned through my achievements to being all i can be in a practical way what's how does that journey begin i think that voice that inner calling as you just said is passion and excitement versus the duty and the need and the fulfilling the the roles if you like of society and i think therefore for me the way that works is that you you add to the passion excitement constantly and allow that to look after your deepest intention, which is always, I want to spend, I think,

all my time fully present, which means doing what I love doing, being who I feel like I'm meant to be, as much as that will keep evolving and changing. So therefore it comes down to following your highest passion and excitement in every moment. And people might argue straight away,

well, how can I do that if I've got to be at work at seven in the morning and i've got to do this and i've got to go and traipse across town to get here you said yes but within the boundaries of what you have to do what's your highest excitement follow that so you know i've got to drive across here and it's going to take me two hours and but then when you're in the car tune into what's my highest passion excitement i love this podcast okay go that's it i really want to listen i've got that my hands free i'm going to phone so and so because i just thought of them and i really want to chat to them follow that intuitive instinctive impulsive side that comes from what you want. And when that gains momentum, I think the way it works is that

the universe responds by providing more and more opportunities to do more and more of what you like so that you're highest in passion and excitement. The environment allows for you to really do more and more of what you really love doing, but you've got to start the ball rolling by saying right within this moment right now how can i what's my highest passion excitement how can i be how can i bring more of me into this as opposed to allow this to take away more of me and i think that is a journey that just looks after itself you know it's on a physical level it's the do what you the little things you can do set goals and allow them to you know what you focus on what you can do and allow it to expand and and grow into the most amazing things it's the same way of just doing that on an internal level it's just follow your heart it might be physical it might just be things i love thinking about it's it even if it comes down to to being you know you're you're stuck in a lift you're

kind of like and it's a tiny lift and you're going to be there for maybe for a while okay but people talk about going to a happy place but that's what's my highest passion excitement oh what i love to be doing now paint it picture it think of it dream it feel it all those kind of things all these things are amazing things to be doing and if you're following your highest passion if you're enjoying and embracing this moment i spoke to someone recently was saying that you know to know you're on track for your future manifestations of your dreams the the indicator is often how deeply are you embracing and enjoying this moment now. And once you find yourself loving this moment, it's amazing how much things just fall into place

for you. And I think that's the key is to be able to say, whatever it is, whatever you can do, do it and bring it to this. And I think that voice that says, oh oh i can't do this i can't do that it's not possible i shouldn't do this or it's not right is another way of saying i i can't be me it's so interesting because when you were saying that i was thinking about the former version of myself at 18 living in manchester and moss side where you know i i was very i had nothing and i was probably thinking as i've talked about a million times food to feed myself but in that moment i was although i was working in call centers at night night shifts i was so unbelievably excited by life because i was also designing my website in my designing my future business in my lunchtime in my breaks of that call center um and i people i've

said this for years and i don't think people believed me, but I've said, I was as happy then as I am now. That kid was so optimistic and so happy, even though he had no money and he was working night shifts in a call centre. And it sounds so privileged, and like, obviously, because of money now, whatever.

But it resonated with so much of what you were saying then. I think it's because of what you were saying then, was I was still pursuing my highest passion despite the fact that i was working in this call center i was still occupying all of my time and my thoughts that i could with that future and that's what i believe manifested me being here because i could have made the decision um that this was my destination in my forever and i'd probably still be there now in moss side yeah i i definitely agree the idea about following your highest passion there is a passion I think deep down is for expressing

who you are and there's no doubt for me that rugby for that period of my life was what I was meant to do that's how I was supposed to play out that was that was what I was supposed to be at that time but then your passion changes slightly and to be able to leave the rugby and follow that passion often I think people say you know it's really difficult to find my next passion but I think having that that kind of ability to to leave behind what's been is what allows passion for what can be and I think like we were saying before about wanting to you finish your rugby and then you think I'll go straight into coaching because it's close enough and people still know me and I still but actually to have that period of not just after an end of a career but daily to have that quiet period every day where you just sit not with not with ideas I'm going to think about this or I need to plan

this or I need to work out what my passion is but just sit and just disconnect from that pull of the external eyes closed and just watch but of course straight away comes in is yeah am I doing this right what should be happening should i be feeling something i haven't had any ideas it's been two weeks and but just do it just do it in in the name of moving to your potential because we were so willing to to give to our limits look at how many years we spend suffering and telling ourselves certain things that have come from old ideas that no longer serve us we're willing to give all our time to those but people

are still like it's too hard to find 10 minutes to sit on an evening what am i going to do when actually you know you have that moment where you're sat watching something on tv and it's not really interesting and you're kind of like that's time there but once that ball gets rolling when your passion centers around something and everything comes out of that same passion so it's all aligned it's all kind of focused energy that's going to manifest there's no doubt you know like i'm sure at some level there's no way you get to where you are now without there being that drive. Now I had that in the rugby and a lot of it was sort of conflict and it stressed the hell out of me,

but it was so damn strong that it had to win because I wouldn't let it not win. I just didn't do it in a way that was enjoyable. Same. And now I think when you release the conflict, you get even more flow. you get an effortless version of what i've done through efforting i've efforted heavily yeah i listen i had that word recently i really like it i much prefer it than tried or given so much but i've really made it a sort of an effort version of how to get to the top and what that means is

when i look back it's like how was it i never smelt the roses that's what most people say yeah because there's another way to do it and maybe that's how this has come out for you versus the first i don't know you know like these projects for me the next things i'm doing seem to just kind of oh yeah there it is that's interesting whereas before it was oh god i've sort of get out of there don't you dare whatever it is. I think that just comes from at some point just saying, well, okay, this is what I've got, acceptance.

And then what do I want to do right now? What's my next step? Responsibility. And you can't get to that passion without the acceptance. And the acceptance is, this is what I've got. This is where I'm meant to be. This is how are and once they come to ease with that then suddenly there is that well I can start to feel what it is I want to do next yeah but while there's that resistance to this it shouldn't be this way and should I be doing this or I'm elsewhere future past passion and excitement are kind of like look whilst you're trying to survive we're not relevant to you

you know someone in survival isn't really interested in passion and excitement are kind of like, look, whilst you're trying to survive, we're not relevant to you. You know, someone in survival isn't really interested in passion and excitement. And I was in survival most of my career, hence why I keep saying about my career, you know, the passion and excitement died away. Not because I lost, I fell out of love with rugby at all. Not at all.

Just purely that I was in survival mode more and more and more. And the more I went into it, the less relevant creativity, growth, love, connection with teammates, excitement, passion, joy joy it's just not relevant to that you you nailed it when you described me as well with that when you said um the drive that i had that was really strong was actually upon reflection just deep insecurity yeah it's still a big drive though it's still a big driver hard to shake when you think about winning the world cup and you said that was the goal was that really your your goal yeah it's i think having like you said the insecurities often

for me just comes down to the opposite of trust it's distrust in yourself or whatever but when there's a different trust about it that acceptance i'm speaking about is all-encompassing. That when you accept now, it is a full acceptance of all that's been. Now is, you know, if you accept this, then everything from a physical perspective that's brought to here also sort of is accepted. And therefore, for me, it was my goal because deep down my inner calling was I want to be free i want to be happy and i i want this and so according to the energy i was in these were the cooperative components

win a world cup why so you can see that that's not quite where you need to be going all right have some injuries why so you can go through your own learning at the speed that you're choosing. You can't go any faster than you're ready for. You can't go any slower. It is simply as it is. And as you explore, I think it kind of, as you start to expand, the expansion takes place, I think, quicker

once you get going. I think more revelations come and it kind of opens up harder or faster. But the point for me being that that trust is just, it may have taken 40 years to get to this point, but from an experiential level, I don't feel 40 years has gone into this. It's been instantaneous because it's just memory.

It's not 40 years. So I kind of love the idea of people confusing the past with memory when it's memory and you start to realize it's memory and you start to realize that you have a a say in the emotional involvement in that memory you can release it from those memories that you can play with your past. Whereas people have a fixed idea of past and yet they want a different future. It's like a railroad track, you know, that has a certain piece that's slightly curved and the train is going along and reaches back

from the previous piece and sticks it in front. Because these are my understandings about how life is. This is how it's going to be. And so you end up just going round and round and round in circles. Instead of the classic cycle breaker, which is that random different piece and sometimes it's a big shock or a trauma for people the way you kind of get a piece that's like completely different direction suddenly you head off into the unknown and people have those amazing you know experiences but sometimes it's just a piece which is slightly less curved and that's what those moments were for me you know

that different understanding of like hold on i thought there was going to be joy here i was convinced there isn't and suddenly that cycle break and you're thinking just enough to change the piece a bit and you head here and you widen your circle and eventually you start to be in control a little bit more of how you're going to see each event so you can start to best you can shape those pieces to send you into the unknown, which is where I didn't want to go before. You know, the unknown was the threat. The unknown was the potential slip up we're talking about,

was that kind of shady space where you're not in control anymore. Whereas now the unknown is like, well, if you want potential, you want to see what life is, it's unknown. And the more unknown you see yourself, the more you align with life, less ideas I have, the more unknown I am, the more I align with life,

the more that I start to get that, I think that more instantaneous response we're talking about, instead of it taking 40 years. For me, it's gone over that 40 years, it's been sort of expanding out, but over the last 15, it's been quicker. Over the last five, much quicker.

And over the last one, much, much quicker. Vulnerability is an interesting word because it assumes it makes you feel a certain way. But this truth and this openness that you speak, which kind of marks the way you speak now this kind of i'm willing to tell you all about myself in terms of how i feel and what i'm thinking and i'm willing again this is an assumption i don't care as much about what you think of me based on what i'm sharing now whether it's about your mental health or about how you're feeling which again are things that men don't typically do, especially, you know, leaders in sport, right?

What impact has stepping into your truth and being open and like free from caring too much about what others might think of you because you're so open about your mental health and other things, what impact has that had on your life? I think it's the openness is is is not um a conscious decision i'm not coming in saying i'm now going to be so open about it the same way that i might have been unconsciously closed before

you know still kind of not speaking about stuff not because i'm sitting there thinking i'm not talking about this but because that feeling says this is where I want to stay within the boundaries of this on the conversation. And now the boundaries are wider, not because it's not now a narrow boundary of all I ever talk about is how my suffering is kind of like, but you talk about, I guess, what's relevant to the moment, to the conversation. And it's inspired rather than pre-planned.

Like I said to you before, I think I used to be a big one for preparation. So coming into this, you know, I dread to think what I'd have been like when I was 21, but I'd have been out there with my sort of agent or with my dad or my mum or something, and went to come in and be like, yeah, and they'd be like, it's going to go fine, don't worry, fine don't worry it's gonna go fine you're like yeah it is just make sure you

i'm gonna talk about that and i might talk about that story if you ask me about that it's planned on the basis of i'm trying to achieve an outcome from this but when it becomes which again is that whole kind of like what i create what i actually create defines who i am so what i'm going to create from this will define who i am so i need to make sure it's how i want it to be all based on this idea of who i am but without the idea i think i speak according to the situation not according to my identity and i listen according to what's maybe more of what's really being meant than what's being said and again it it's this i guess it's this different more less solid idea of who you are that just suddenly opens up the understanding of what

really listening is and being there is i mean being there for someone is such an amazing phrase when you really look at it. To be there for someone, it means fully being. Now, people are saying, but what's the best thing to do if someone's struggling? It's like, well, just be there for them. Okay, but you mean like just physically stand there and be loving. But if all of this is an effort,

it's designed to get an outcome but if to get an outcome for someone else you must have to know what's right for them and now you're deciding and limiting them but if you want to be all you can be you can allow others to be all they can be you can allow a situation to be all it can be and i think that kind of for me has been you know the the one of the biggest openings for us and an example I'd say was I spoke to a young football player a while back maybe sort of 15 16 years old and someone said would you mind just having a chat and I said yeah of course I'd love to you know you get that inspirational sort of feel immediately that, yeah, this is one of those cooperative manifested moments of there's something that I've called for and this has been offered and I think I'm chat it came to me in quite a sort of emotionally sort of I guess intense way I suddenly realized that I wasn't talking to this person as if I was 40 they were 15 as if they were a young soccer player I was an ex-rugby player

I suddenly realized that I was exchanging on a level here where it was energy form to energy form not age relevant at all not even defined simply that I was performing a role of serving and being served at the same time according to allowing letting it be whereas before it would have been okay right before the call you kind of put on your mentor shirt you know going to be a mentor now and um you know but i talk like this and give it the whole kind of yeah well i guess if you're going to play sport you know all this kind of stuff but instead you phone up and suddenly i realized i'd lost that idea of the difference between people and people talk about it from you know age gender all these kind of things you know religion race everything and you sort of think we're all trying to do that

by listening to the right thing to do and what people should say and how you should speak but it's all the answers are in your own journey to releasing all your sort of self-discriminations and judgments, that then it just becomes so easy and obvious, but so joyful and such a true exchange according to what's really being asked for, rather than two people playing a game on the surface of playing our roles and seeing what we can get from each other. It's two people sharing what's really being asked for.

And I sort of feel like, if you like, for me from that perspective, that's the first time I've kind of understood what it is to really care for someone. It's to completely let go of your own ideas of them. And in order to do that, you have to let go of yours about you. And I think that's the selfless side of it. It's funny that expression, you know, it's selfless. You remove yourself and you can be selfless.

And just being able to sit there and listen and be fascinated by someone has been a really, I think a big moment in that. And that kind of, yeah, it's been a, that's been a nice change. That moment for me was one where I suddenly realized, you know, that I've been playing a game for so long according again to that identity what i need from this how it's going to look you know i i'm using people i don't mean necessarily on on that whole kind of

exploitative you know i guess in a way it is but you're kind of using them to get them to feel a certain way about you you're using them to to say what you need them to say for you to fill that space and once that goes relationships i think take on a whole new level interesting you're essentially using them to confirm the the identity to fill the hole yeah makes me feel like i'm your mentor yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah so i you know i need at the end of it i need you i need that kind of like thanks so much for your time yeah i can't believe you're doing this know i need at the end of it i need you i need that kind of like thanks so much for your time yeah i can't believe you're doing this and i need that backup call that comes when the person introduced you says oh they're over the moon they're so chuffed you spoke you've changed

their life forever you need that because that's what i'm yeah because without that am i doing a good job but once that goes is to be like but i'm doing what i was supposed to be doing. When I look over your story, one of the threads that goes through it, even up until today, because I read that you were thinking of or in the process of starting a mental health foundation, is the story of mental health, something that's become a greater discussed topic in our generation, specifically around because there's a lot of men that are arriving at the unfortunate decision that the only way out is to end their lives. And it's now the biggest single killer of men under the age of 45 in our country. Your mental health journey twists and turns, it seems. I remember vividly reading that you're in your hotel room in your

playing days looking at the TV and it's basically just lights because your head is overthinking at an unbelievable rate. And it sounds somewhat, and i'm not familiar with the the medical definition of a panic attack or anxiety but it sounds somewhat like that um have you ever experienced depression in your life about a period where and again i'm i'm not a doctor but where you feel a sustained low and that would be clinically described as depression yeah they'll always go together undoubtedly yeah because for me they do because you have that sense of panic and anxiety which for me has always been around sort of finding these these insurmountable issues throughout my life what seems to be the insurmountable which is basically saying

according to how i've positioned my view of life this is now insurmountable, which is basically saying, according to how I've positioned my view of life, this is now insurmountable. According to my belief system, this means this is an issue and we can't pass each other. And the fear then kicks in, the lack of control, the panic kicks in, which again, that hysterical nature of it, you know, it tells me that it's you

know it's not rational to the to the moment you know don't talk about there's no threat here but if i'm having that threat i know it's it's coming from something deeper but the fact that it's insurmountable the fact or it appears so and the fact that before i wouldn't have seen changing your energy otherwise known as changing your identity i guess in a way or removing your identity i wouldn't have seen that as an, otherwise known as changing your identity, I guess, in a way, or removing your identity. I wouldn't have seen that as an opportunity. So therefore you're stuck in that insurmountable space and that's where the depression kicks in.

What's the point? What's the point? This is me now. I can't live with, I can't live without this. I'm stuck. The needle is right in the middle and every time I try and move it one way to get some clarity once it goes that way I panic because it has to come

back I don't want it to go that way so I bring it to the middle and I try and work it the other way and it's like I don't want it to go that way and it's this classic two voices you mentioned which is this call for happiness and this call for joy and and freedom and and all that the stuff which just blossoms out over and over again in ways that beyond belief but another voice that says i don't want that i want it so much and i don't want it at the same time and the don't want it voice is the idea this is who I am I think I am and I want to save this whilst having that those are the two voices and when you're locked into that I want to save this I want that becomes I can never have it this is all I've

got and right now if this is me, you know, what's the point? But understanding for me that it's those two voices that I'm working with, not external truths, you know, external situations. And they're not, this is the way the world is. And unfortunately, therefore, this is the way it is. That's the voice that comes from old ideas. And understanding you're comes from old ideas and understanding

you're working with old ideas and old ideas represent that energy state or shape it that when you start to realize well hold on on an energy level if i just trust i keep working with my energy and i trust as long as it takes i'm going to work on it that's it without this idea that you know this idea of how and when it should sort itself out well you know i heard that person talking about getting some revelations and i haven't had any yet but i should have any some after two weeks i hasn't been i'm not getting any i can't even you know it's like no just leave it open-ended and you know if people go to the gym sometimes when they don't really want to it's kind of like, why not just sit quietly for 10 minutes when you don't really want to, but just do it anyway. Just do it and just say, okay, I'll see. It's a bit like they're looking in the mirror when you go into the gym, you know, over day after day, you don't see it. Someone else says, hi, yeah, what's happening there? You're kind of like, I've been going to the gym. It's like it's like all right i haven't really seen it it's the same as sitting quietly it feels like nothing's happening but

it is patrice everest sat here manchester united football legend left bank um uh and he said that one of the questions that really changed his life was one day when his girlfriend turned to him and said patrice are you happy and when he was asked that question and i remember when i was asked that question because my girlfriend at the time asked me when i was driving home in my car back to my house after work and she turned to me and said are you happy and it was it made me feel uncomfortable okay and patrice described a similar thing like he kind of snapped back at her of course i'm happy but then she persisted and this kind of was a really a real turning point in his life where he eventually admitted to a to being molested when he was in school something

he'd never told anybody and had never confronted and that set him off on the journey of understanding himself in truth and finding a way to not be this tough guy anymore and to be compassionate and loving and to be all he could be, right? Are you happy? It's a, I was just thinking that once you were, I presumed you were going to ask that question. I took the long way around that one. Yeah, no, it's good. I think happiness, when you're asked it that way, is a bit of a destination.

Yes or no, isn't it? It's like a yes or no. It's kind of like you know what i'd like to see it maybe in terms of am i grateful to be alive and i think you know am i full of gratitude is my way of looking at it am i um am i in touch with that that sense of of just being yeah so so pleased that I'm I'm having this opportunity of life and yeah definitely and I wonder sometimes even in my darkest moments if you kind of go you know this is part of that journey as well and in a way when I look back it's more so much more difficult at the time I mean almost impossible when I look back am I pleased and grateful for that it's like yes I am because

it always turns out that it's the answer to a deeper connection and I feel like yes am I happy I'm grateful to be alive and I don't want to change a thing and I think that's kind of for me would I change anything I don't want and I think that's the sign you know I feel like as was underneath so much of the the the rugby stuff the achievement stuff the savior stuff the warrior stuff the martyr stuff, the achievement stuff, the saviour stuff, the warrior stuff, the martyr stuff. It was always a case of I'm not enough, so I need to earn it from other people, from outcomes, from life or whatever. And I think that question is, are you happy?

It's like, do you realise that you're enough? Do you feel that you're worthy and deserving of being here and i think that's the connection to to everything and i think maybe that's the answer all this energy change stuff we're talking about or or old ideas or it's really comes down to recognizing that you know are you are you aware of just how worthy you are that this whole universe is is answering to you with these experiences you know the whatever's happened this morning and whatever's happened on my journey here and meeting you this has all been put in my path for me the same way it is for everyone it's like i mean i had another expression a while

back saying that um we're so important with the without you the universe couldn't be all that it could be it would just be some of what it could be and and therefore it couldn't exist that's how important we all are we're here because we're supposed to be here and what's great is that you know that finding out your your passion your your your joy and your true minis is not something you need to worry about just something you need to allow out and know that all these events are pointing you i think pointing us all towards all we can be if we're willing to listen but when we answer them try and stop them we're basically saying no no i've found who i'm supposed to be and therefore i don't need this but when i think we're sort of willing to to look at what we've been given and say well i must need

this and maybe there's something asking for this deeper that knows way more than I do so you know I'll step out the way for a bit and and have a good old listen Shelly your wife yep what role has she played and just having a partner through this this journey what role has that played in you discovering and going on the journey of becoming all you can be i think it must be the same i don't know for for all people i did hear eckhart tolle say that uh relationships were the spiritual work for the west you know it's for the east i don't know what the case is now but yeah maybe it used to be sitting on hillsides but people sort of think i can't i can't do that because i've got my responsibilities but it's like this is the work relationships are massive like that

and you know she's perfect in in every way because she's perfect as she is um but also because she's she's exactly what I need and And that means when I get challenged, I'm kind of like, this is what I need. And it's, yeah, like I said, it's when someone sort of provides that opportunity for you to sort of be more of you on every level, I think that's kind of gold dust gold dust and therefore I think you know I turn up and I don't expect or or think she should be or any certain way um I need her to be exactly as she

wants to be and is um because it's right for me and hopefully I'm being the same for her but um it's funny how we both kind of growing and in our own ways in our own directions i think because of each other and now you know we've got someone else on that journey with us in our little world and and exactly the same relationship i think the best thing is that both of us is neither of us are trying to lead a change in the other we're both trying to sort of uncover more about ourselves and that's doing everything in the work in the relation as i said before you know working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone but working on yourself tends to work for everyone and i know you have a uh

it's like a kombucha style drink right yeah what do they call those they call them so it's a living drink yeah fermented so probiotic um what's it called it's number one living it's called number one living yeah and uh it's uh yeah it's a kombucha drink we've got water keffirs which is more fermented drinks we've got all kinds of stuff on the uh on the market around yeah i was curious about that because i'd seen this shift in your perspective of diet and nutrition throughout your life and i wondered if there was any advice for for me based on the journey you've been on again this is maybe a bit selfish of me to ask but i know there's other people who would think it because again when i was a young i guess i still am a young man but i was very much just smashing pro

well i still am smashing protein shakes to try and build my muscles and i'm really focusing on trying to have like a really good looking body yeah whereas what you've said is that health is much more important and when I read that that you'd made this distinction between health and fitness I kind of looked at it and I thought to myself what does he mean because I thought kind of health and fitness was almost a similar thing yeah I think um for a start my brother's a fitness conditioner we played together professionally up in the north and then um yeah his his side has always been the the fitness conditioning side so we have a really close relationship on that and he's exploring loads of this stuff my wife was trained to become a nutritionist um so she was exploring all kinds

of things in the the natural sort of healing side of of nutrition but also in nutrition as a whole and i was looking massively into the mental, emotional side of it. So we all kind of crossed paths, my wife and I, especially on kombucha and different kefir. We started making them at home. We were putting, you know, going blackberry picking, putting them in a real kind of shift compared to being in a changing room and unwrapping these kind of foil-covered laboratory-based bars

that have been constructed. And I think that was the difference for me is that i spent my life being very fit but not really that healthy and fitness is an interesting one i think everyone kind of realizes this to a degree is that when aspirationally you you really push yourself down a specific route physically to adapt to be able to do a certain thing very very sort of fully you you kind of you distance yourself slightly from the hole if you were it's a bit like sort of a mountain as you climb top more and more to the mountain it gets a bit more isolated up there and i think health is about what fitness can come out of unless you look after health it's dangerous it's a dangerous balance i think to take you know you have to look

after health and then explore what your fitness can be rather than go after fitness thinking it's going to lead to health it it doesn't you know, I work on this with my brother as well in the stuff we do with regard to the foundation. We speak about stuff. And one of the areas we talk about is life fitness, which is another way of talking about health, which is about that effortless flowing capacity to be so graceful in what you need to do every day and not, you know,

talking about the aspirational side, you might see, look, I can bench press this and I can lift this. Look at the state of me. Look, I've got no body fat and this, but it's kind of like, okay, let's see you get in and out of your car. You're like, okay, now what we're talking about here is a life fitness, which has some balance in it. Now don't get me wrong. I was one of those guys that was rugby-wise, I couldn't bend down. The idea that I would sort of have to look under the sofa for something, I'd be like, I'm going to have to lie flat.

It took me about three minutes to get down and five to get back up. But there's a real grace to that balance. And if, you know know you talk about strong men and and maybe a story of the past but where strong men were told if you carry on like this you know this effort to become the world's strongest man your life expectancy is probably not going to be much more than 45 and people are yeah okay i'll take that because of the the the ambition the drive behind what's behind that which is absolutely up to absolutely everyone but for me having finished rugby i i

think i understood just how far i'd ventured from health and and the living drink side with the number one living stuff we do is is around the connected nature of yeah we're more bacteria than we are cells and yet yeah we also live in a world where there's a great deal of sterility at the moment so bacteria kind of disappearing we're not getting outside so much digging our hands in the dirt um on top of that um as antibiotics have found their way into all kinds of different foods um and so you know we're finding ourselves short of these things and what they're finding out is that bacteria has a role in connecting the body in ways we don't even know it's that incredible and we're made of mostly of it um and the the balance between all these

kind of bacteria and even viruses and all kinds of things that are going on us is imperative to our intelligence and how we operate so that's been an effort behind that but also trying to help us shift back towards health so that we have this kind of genius way of living our life so that we can involve ourselves fully in every moment rather than have that kind of oh i've got to do that but it's fine because i'll go into the gym after, but, you know, washing the dishes is a good one. I use as a metaphor an idea for, I once got asked by a triathlete about, I was speaking to a triathlete and I said, you know, but you love doing your triathlon, but you don't like washing the dishes. But what's the deal with when you're washing the dishes?

What are you trying to do? I'm just trying to wash the dishes. Oh, what are you trying to do when you're doing triathlon well I'm sort of I've got a goal and I'm working moving my body to get through that to achieve a certain goal what are you doing when you're washing the dishes well there's a goal and I'm working my body through it to get to a goal it's the same thing but there's an understanding that this I like and this I don't. This I'm willing to do, this I'm unwilling to do. This I'm willing to be joyful about and this, therefore, I've decided already is not.

But to bring that kind of whole engagement to every moment is health. When you have certain things which are great and others which aren't, that involvement and out-involvement or lack of involvement for me is what fitness was. You know, as a rugby player, training, brilliant, gym, matches, great. Going for walks, yeah, not bad. Sitting around, sitting quietly, no chance.

You know, getting in and out of the car, like I said, terrible. No way. You know, all these kind of things. And yet people say, I wish i've made more of my life wish i'd enjoyed every moment but that starts with health health of physical mental emotional and exploring that and that first of all comes with you know exploring the body and you know the classic would be we sit now maybe sometimes for so long that we become very good at sitting aspirationally we've become great sitters the same way we've become great rugby players or whatever it is so our

bodies are starting to shape towards that and they're forgetting everything we knew before and now you find sometimes the best feeling you can get is by just stretching your arms back and going oh that feels nice i'd forgotten how nice that was like yoga yeah exactly the danger is is that we end up in a few years where we've lost it and it's to remind yourself that is health whereas if you're doing one thing the whole time without reminding yourself of everything you can do um everything you as we speak about identity-wise, you become so obsessed with being this kind of person, you forget that you're everything. Yeah, but I'm being this something.

Yeah, but you've got to keep reminding yourself that you're everything. Otherwise, you're going to lose your grounding and you're going to get lost in the small and lose, yeah, you're going to get lost in the wave and you're going to lose sort of your your homeliness in the deep sea where it's all peace and your your every wave but as it is you know we're in that individual thing and health and fitness is part of that movement and health is about what you eat what

you drink how you eat how you drink how you breathe how you move sleep recovery restfulness peace it's it's an endless journey i think people think that health and what have you is about not being overweight trying not to perish of anything before your time um but you know and maybe hang on to being able to do some stuff when you're still reasonably young it's health is an endless journey of just unending discovery or if it's related to fitness it's looking good for others and feeling attractive and and having to eat stuff that you don't like tastes horrible and wishing you could have this and you know and getting to bed you know after as long as it's not too late after you finish your netflix series or what have you johnny um a truly remarkable conversation and it really highlights to me uh i was thinking

that this guy should have a podcast and then i reminded myself that you've just launched your podcast which is called i am yeah and i also now understand why it's called i am just from this conversation but i you know it's funny because i listened to some of your podcast episodes before you sat down and um you're interviewing people I don't know why I'm saying this to you but when I was listening to it and I just thought I don't know why I'd say but I feel compelled to say this I was I wanted you to talk more yeah because of everything I've discovered from this conversation today and you're someone that's gone on a very introspective journey who has managed to pull up those pieces of the train track and send them in a uncertain direction,

which most people haven't. And you're discovering a lot on that journey, which I think is so unbelievably valuable. So when I listened to your podcast, I am, I just wanted more of Johnny, but it's a really, really brilliant podcast. I mean, I don't even need to explain why having listened to this conversation today um but yeah i just i've absolutely loved loved this conversation and uh you talk about a lot

of the things that i as a very kind of introspective person talk about people think we're weird right yeah you do get that sometimes i think the best thing to be seen at the moment with the way that society leans i think it's quite powerful to be seen as illogical in your responses because everything's leaning towards stress and and winning and conquering and achieving and and reactivity and our stress has become a marker in workplaces. You know, the more stressed you are, the more important you must be. And it's almost like worn as a badge, you know, kind of like, check me out, I'm pushing it. Yeah, I might not be sort of, my future life is uncertain

because I'm really willing to sort of give so much to this. Whereas to be seen as illogical and a bit irrational in that area, it's quite a strong place to be right now because of where we are. So, you know, when you're kind of, I've said this before, we used to have games, rugby games, where we'd lose and I'd be sat there,

head down in the change room, you know, trying to run this kind of thoughts through my head of like oh how you know it was against me it never works out and i've got to come back stronger and you know what a wasted opportunity i'll never get this back and i'm you know what a failure etc etc what's this going to mean for me and then you see someone looking in the mirror putting their tie on has already had a shower already out there tie on and they're sort of like where are we off to tonight lads and of course society's voice or the changing room's voice or the team's voices how dare you how dare you be thinking about how good life can be how dare you respond according

to your dreams and the life you wish to live come and react according to life that we want you to live come and react according to the life that you should be living? One where you sit here and show how much you care and how disappointed you are. Whereas in fact, now when I look back, I'm kind of like, I wish I'd been looking in that mirror with that guy, you know, I wish I'd been out there earlier saying, yeah, well, you know what?

I gave everything. The learning's taken place. I don't need to sit here and torture myself with this. The learning has taken place because I've got some great contrast. I wanted this, I got this. It's only refined my view immediately of what I want now even more.

And it's given me some understandings of what's working and what's not. The fact that I'm going to think about them isn't going to change those. I've got them. The question is, as we said, the marker of whether they're on their way depends upon how much i'm enjoying this

moment and what do i want to be doing now i want to be out with the guys or i want to be at home with my family but instead i'm going to sit in the chair i'm going to be last to leave and i'm not even going to go in the shower until the the groundsman's turning the lights off in the clubhouse do you know i mean i'm going to be last out to show you guys that i care and i'm hurting the most and it didn't mean a thing you know as far as i'm concerned you know like i mean? I'm going to be last out to show you guys that I care and I'm hurting the most. And it didn't mean a thing, you know, as far as I'm concerned. You know, like I said, it was part of a lesson I had to learn. But I think being seen as irrational in that way,

as long as it's according to life you wish to live and it's not about not caring, totally different things, you know, it's a beautiful space to be in, I think. And, you know, what a beautiful space to be in i think and you know what a what a beautiful place to end i am again this is why i'm so excited that you're now a podcaster as well and i'm really excited to watch that journey play out and to see where that that journey leads you because it's you never know with podcasting as i didn't i didn't know i'd be sat here doing this now but for many of the reasons you've described about that kind of manifestation and just kind of asking myself um to to figure out who who i could become and all that i am that's what's led me here today and this is you know there's a real serendipity to the fact that we're having this

conversation that's led me to meet you so thank you so much for your time thank you so much for being a um a very open book in all regards because it's a very healing thing for many people who are yet to go on the journey you've gone on we do have a tradition on this podcast which is that the last guest asks the next guest a question okay um and this is a very interesting one because i've read about your answer to this previously but i can't say who the guest is, but their question for you, and they actually wrote a book about this. That's what I will tell you. Their question to you is, what is your biggest regret?

Yeah, good one. I don't, it's a good one. I used to spend all my time on these kind of things when I was younger. And now I just can't for the life of me, I can't find a place for regret. It's understanding that for a start on a physical level, if I went back to wherever I was, as we've said before about other people and inhabited that energy I see the world the same straight away I feel the way I do straight away I do what I think what I think I do what I do I create what I create I can't do anything different it's inevitable the now

which includes everything that's come to the now, it's inevitable. And to resist that is to, and not accept that, is to continue reacting into the future. And I think the continuing of reactivity is what I'd regret now about my future. I don't regret anything that's been, but I think sitting here now i'd be like it'd be a real shame if i just kept reacting for the rest of my life what i say is but how nice would it be to to let inspiration decide my future rather than my my regrets and or my old ideas and

i think we mentioned about that train track regret for me is a classic of reaching back and going more of the same please and just planting your own and and you know in that respect i think some people kind of spiritual people do this they look into people's futures and kind of go let me just see how you are at the moment right if you have that going on i can pretty much guarantee what you've got coming but that's not what i want. I want surprise. And I can't have regrets and surprise. I can't have that kind of looking back. I can't have such an idea about how it should have been and then have freedom in the future.

If I want freedom in the future, I've got to free up the past. And therefore, you know, regret has to take a bit of a sideline on the bench. Amen. Thank you. you