The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Karren Brady: How To Win At Entrepreneurship & Love (at the same time)

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

Karren Brady is a businesswoman, Vice Chairman of West Ham, a mainstay on BBC One’s The Apprentice for many years, and at the age of 23 became the youngest person to run a publicly traded company when she was put in charge of Birmingham City Football Club. Not only was she the youngest person running a football club, but she was also one of the first women to be leaders in the industry. It is hard to imagine not only being one of the youngest people at the club you’re running, but one of the only women too. What has underlined these advances is incredible energy, dedication and drive. For Karren, breaking glass ceilings and being a first to do things is reachable for everyone, it just means working twice as hard as everyone else. Follow Karren: Twitter - https://twitter.com/karren_brady Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/karren_brady_official Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue i remember my first away game and i turned up and i said hi could you tell me where the boardroom is? And he said, dear, you don't understand. The director's wives go in the ladies' room. And I said, no, I don't think it's you who understands. I am the managing director. Baroness Brady. She's one of Britain's most successful businesswomen.

I'm the kind of person that never hears the word no. I hear, find another way to get what you want. Leadership is about vision. And your art as a leader is to persuade people to believe in your vision. I remember reading the story about your son turning to you on holiday and saying I wish your blackberry would blow up. Working mother is the best title for me. Sometimes you don't get it right. You can only do the best you can do. Ambition is that spark. It's that fire inside of yourself that won't let you settle for anything other than what you think you deserve and what you want. What would you say to those young women that are starting out in their career?

I would say... So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Karen. Hello, Stephen. I've spent the last couple of days listening to your interviews and reading a lot of sort of interviews you've done in newspapers and things like that. And as I got further and further and further, further into your story and further into your childhood, there was this question,

which I wasn't able to answer despite all that I'd read. And it's, you clearly from a very young age had this real deep desire to have freedom, which resulted in this independence and also resulted in this wonderful young person who had this ability to like stand up for themselves. But where did this deep desire to be free from the control of others where does it come from I don't know I mean my mother always tells a story that um when I was four that um my grandfather was looking after me at home and my parents had this drinks cabinet and it was sort of opened down and it had all these like bottles of beautiful bottles and little glasses and things and she tells this story and i don't remember it at all

but i got a chair and i climbed up and i opened the drinks cabinet and they had these little sherry glasses and i poured all little bits of liquid from it and i started to drink it and my grandfather said um don't do that you'll'll be sick. And I said, you leave me alone. thing, thought you knew best. Cut my own hair when I was six. We had a school photo the next day. And I decided the only person who could cut my hair was myself. And you should see the picture. My fringe sort of starts here and sort of goes like that. And it's got all lumps cut out of it. I guess I kind of thought if I didn't stand up for myself, no one would. And I was very happy to stand up for myself. And, you know, in life, as you go through life, one of the things you realize is that if sometimes you've got to find your backbone and you've got to use it and simply put one foot in front of the other and keep going is one of the philosophies I've had in my life.

But no, I always define, always stood up for myself, never took anything lying down. Yeah, I don't know. Defiant feels like the perfect word. And I was trying to figure out where it came from. Because usually when I sit with my guests, they can like, even if it's incorrect, they can look back in hindsight and pinpoint a moment, some kind of trauma or pain or negative experience which shaped them to be a bit of an anomaly in some way. I was like where did this defiance come from and I couldn't quite figure it out I don't know I I have no idea it's not part of any trauma that happened to me I just I guess I always felt that I had something to say and even at a young age I wanted to say it and I didn't care who heard it or, you know, I just felt I wanted to stand up for myself. I have no idea. I've never really thought about it.

I know it's definitely a part of my personality trait that this defiance, this I'm going to prove people wrong. I'm going to do what I want to do, how I want to do it. But I never really thought about where it came from. What's this story about your first day of school and your mum being concerned that you might be shy and then finding out that you chucked some kid off the chair? Well, there's another story. I mean, I don't remember any of these stories. But my mum said the first day of school, she was very worried if I would be shy or would I want to go home or whatever. And she went to pick me up from school and she said to the teacher how was Karen she said oh your daughter's Carrie she said oh is she shy she said Karen shy she said she she

went up to a boy in a chair and she went that's my seat get off so but I don't remember it I don't remember any of these things but all these little stories they always have one thing in common that I had this sort of level of defiance and this you know determination to to stand up for myself one of my suspicions when I was trying to piece together this this little bit of defiance puzzle was um reading about your dad and how much of a sort of hard-working autonomous man he was and how hard you said he worked I was wondering if they had given you a bit of a kind of a void of independence when you were growing up that led you to create this kind of independence in yourself. Were they like present and were they on you? No, definitely not on me in that way. They weren't, you know, tiger parents pushing you to the front. Although my grandmother used to always say be

first because it's the best place to be. She used to always say that to me. So my dad left school at 14, didn't have much of an education and worked really hard to get where he wanted. And I guess the lesson from him was, you know, nothing compensates for hard work. And if you don't try, you know, if you don't try something, you'll never know how good you are at something. So I think maybe that sheer resilience came from his model of working hard, doing your best, trying everything, pushing yourself forward.

And would he give you advice? Would he impart knowledge onto you? Or was it you learning by his example of watching him work so hard? I think almost definitely the second one. I don't remember him ever sitting me down and saying, do this and your life will be better or more enriched. I think it was just learning from examples, from seeing the hard work. And we went from Edmonton to a little bit further up to another little place in Edmonton to a bit further up.

And our lives sort of got slightly better. And my dad's desire was to give my brother and I a really good education because he hadn't had one. So he really wanted us to have a great education because he felt that was a big part of what was missing in his life. And I guess he maybe he thought if you have a great education, you don't have to work so hard, you don't have to start so much at the bottom. I think that was a real driver for him. And your mother? My mother was a housewife. So she had no ambitions for work, very smart woman, very nurturing in everything that she did. My dad was away working a lot. So she was a lot on her own. But equally fun loving and stylish and, you know, spoke her mind too. And you at this age didn't have big ambitions for what you wanted to do in

the future in terms of specific ambitions about career options there's a quote which i read where you said i wasn't gifted in anything i wasn't academic i wasn't the best at anything in fact i was a very average child who really didn't know what she wanted to do or where she was going to go the greatest gift that my parents gave me was self-esteem yeah I think you're very lucky if you know what you want to do if you have a vocation or a calling at a young age I think that is a remarkable thing that you should you should channel I didn't know what I was good at I didn't feel I was particularly good at anything it wasn't as though I had a particular panache for, you know, anything. And I wasn't particularly ambitious, but I know I wanted to do something with my life,

but I didn't know what. And I think ambition is something that sort of creeps up on you slowly when you realize you're good at something. And you think, oh, actually, I'm quite good at this. And then you think, actually, I might be the best person in this room at this or I might be the best person I know at this and that inspires you to to to keep going but I left school at 18 I had O levels and A levels as they were in those days but I had no qualifications but what I had worked has something really important. And that is I'd worked out my core values. So at 18, I had worked out that I was ambitious, I was determined, and I had integrity. And core values are the things that sort of make you who you are. They are the things that lead you to make the decisions you make for yourself and the way you make decisions. And at 18, I knew those things about myself. And at 52, I think they're still my core values. And armed with those things, I set out to get a job. And the one thing I wanted for my life was independence. I wanted to say what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it and when I wanted to do it. And

that's predominantly because I'd been at boarding school from a very early age, going back to my father wanted to give me the best education. He thought a boarding school education was probably the best. And at boarding school, you get up when you're told, you eat what you're told, you wear what you're told, you do what you're told. And I'd had enough.

And I knew that independence only really came when you had your own money. And the problem is at 18, I didn't know how you made money. But I kind of worked out almost everyone works for someone even before they work for themselves. So I went out and I got a job. And at 18 with no qualifications other than O levels and A levels, but armed with my core values,

that I really wasn't afraid to work hard. And I was really ambitious and I would try anything and I would do anything. But with integrity, I went out and I got a job and I started my career. Something I just, I was just trying to piece, put two kind of dots together there. Boarding school, a very restrictive place, the antithesis of like freedom. Your childhood sounded like you had quite a lot of sort of relative freedom. Is there, is it possible that you went from a childhood pre-boarding school where you had a bit more freedom and then because boarding school was such a big change you had a bit of an

allergic reaction to the someone taking your freedom or do you do you see what i mean no i don't think so i mean my father was quite strict i mean we weren't when i say strict not you know but there wasn't we weren't so running around the streets doing our own thing. My mother and father were very disciplined in that way, never felt disciplined. But equally, we weren't sort of latchkey kids where we came and went as we wanted. But I went to a boarding school in the middle of nowhere in a place called Ware in Hertfordshire that was a convent. And it was really strict. And my friends who are still my friends from when we were at school in those days, we remember only one thing about that whole time, the boredom of simply being there and having mass sort of three times a day.

And the second thing was we were hungry all the time. Every day was a fast day. So you'd have, you know, the holy saint of such and such day, and it was a fast day. And we remember those two things and the sort of repressive attitude of wearing the same thing, doing the same thing, doing what you're told, not being able to explore things you were interested in. And none of us could wait to leave. it did teach me resilience the ability to do the things that need to be done when they need to be done whether you like it or not and that's because every day was the same and there's a great lesson I think in life in being able to force yourself to do things you don't want to do because you have to. And that taught me a great deal of patience and resilience and determination.

Which is funny because much of your life has been very much the opposite, making sure you don't have to do things you don't want to do and being restricted by the rules of others. But there is a sense in every job you do, whether you're a pop star, you've got to sing the same songs every night. You know, whether you're working in an office or working for someone else or reporting to shareholders, there's an element of the way it needs to be approached, which is a real discipline, as opposed to saying, I don't want to do it and I'm not going to do it. There's a difference. You said earlier about how you started at one point to notice the advantages or the skills you had over your peers at maybe a young age, around maybe 18, when you start to join the working world and before. When you looked at so 18 19 year old Karen what were those

skills that you started to notice well I'm better than I seem to be better than everyone else at this thing or you know stronger or whatever I went into sales um which is the sort of place where most people go when they don't really have anything else they can do because you you're either good at it or you're not um but you don't need any particular skills other than being able to have resilience of picking up the phone, keep trying, not taking the knockbacks going forward. And I realised I was good at it and I would never take no for an answer. I would always be determined. I would continue to pick up the phone. I had a sort of dogged attitude to not letting the knocks get me

down. You know, when people slam the phone down on you or they don't want to speak, that ability to learn the language, it wasn't, do you want any? It was, how many do you want? You know, it was that, it was that sort of subtle change of being able to be personable. I think I worked out at an early age that people do business with people and it doesn't matter how much brain you have if you don't have a personality you can't put that brain into a good uh you know in into a good place so having a personality and having a brain is a is a good combination I worked in a tele sales as well for four years yeah from 16 to 20 or whatever it was and it was genuinely the most formative experience of my life

I agree also because I don't have the qualifications so it's there yeah yeah and it's a good place to start I don't know about you but I'm not particularly creative I couldn't have done anything I mean I couldn't have done anything in the arts world or anything like that but actually picking up the phone having that resilience being prepared to take the knockbacks keep pushing forward never taking no for an answer those are things I learned from a very young young age so you did sales at Saatchi and Saatchi no I did a menial office work at Saatchi and Saatchi and I left Saatchi to go into sales at 19 and I worked for London Broadcasting Company where we sold advertising space

and that's where you met David Sullivan yes that. Yeah, he was one of my very first clients. And he took radio advertising. And within six months of me meeting him and selling him radio advertising, he was spending 2 million pounds a year on radio, which was the highest spender on commercial radio in the country. And I was on a really high commission. Well done. it was a good time so you meet David Sullivan and he's quite well he's not spending on radio at the time when you met him and he's kind of against it I hear yeah he didn't think it particularly worked and I sold him the idea that he would take the advertising package and if sales didn't go up he didn't have to pay for it and he said yeah sounds okay to me and I sort of thought well if he doesn't have to pay for it. And he said, yeah, sounds okay to me. And I sort of thought, well,

if he doesn't pay for, I'm going to be in trouble. But I thought, I'll worry about that. When that happens. I was just pleased to have made the sale. And he took the advertising, the advertising did work. And he kept spending and spending and spending. If we zoom in on that, that sale, that deal you closed with David Sullivan, I know a lot of people couldn't have closed that deal. And I know that was a pivotal moment in your early career. But I know a lot of people couldn't have closed that deal. So as you look back in hindsight, what was it about Karen that helped you to close that deal? Well, one, I went to see him. So I turned up at his offices, and I waited until he saw me. And I

waited a long time, quite a few hours, until he felt, I think, sorry for me. And I wasn't going anywhere. And he let me do the pitch, the presentation, which I did. Equally, I always had this feeling that, you know, what's the worst that can happen? And the worst that can happen is he didn't take the package and he slung me out. But the best that could happen is he saw me and he took the package. So I always looked on the bright side. So I turned up, I did the deal, I presented well, I had all the facts and figures, I knew what I was talking about. And I guess he thought it took a chance. I think the package was, I can't remember, but it wasn't a lot of money. It wasn't a multi-million pound deal that someone had to really think about it. I pitched it just that it would be an impulse. It could be someone that it was enough money to have a gamble. Not too much, not too little, just in that spot.

And I persuaded him. I had this art of persuasion, talked about what it could do for him, how it would work, and he took it. And that was the beginning of one of my very own clients that stayed with me for many years. And still today, we're still working together at West Ham some 30 years later. That is pretty incredible. Did he know you were coming that day to pitch? Had he booked in a meeting to see you? I can't remember. I think I'd booked in a meeting whether he knew about that or not I don't know. I can't remember. Because that did end up being

quite an early pivotal moment for you it's quite a testament to the fact that again people do buy from people and that you were very a very persuasive person but also there's a sub lesson in there which I've heard you talk about before which is when you're young and you don't have a ton to lose because young people fall into this trap of thinking that no is some kind of like death sentence or it's fatal yeah but as you say you know when you've got nothing else to lose yeah I had nothing to lose the worst thing that could happen is he didn't buy it and I had to sell it to someone I was very independent I wasn't relying on my parents for money I was relying on myself I had no safety net no nest egg I had no you know no I had to pay my rent I had to pay my bills I had to pay my travel I had to pay for my food and I had to make that sale for me it to pay for my food. And I had to make that sale. For me, it had to happen. It wasn't a case of, well, we'll see. But I'm the kind of person that never

hears the word no. When someone says no to me, I don't hear no. I hear, find another way to get what you want. And that's what I always do. I think no is only really pivotal if it ultimately stops you doing what you want to do. If you hear no and you can find another way of getting what you want, that's just as good as hearing a yes. Am I right in thinking that you're someone that really believes in a philosophy versus like current skills? Because when you talk, you talk in terms of like your own philosophy to life. And a lot of people when they speak, they speak in terms of I don't know, skills or hacks or tricks or whatever. But yours seems to be much deeper than that, even saying that they're defaulting to optimism all the time.

I don't know, I've never really, I've never really thought about it. I think you, you know, you need the ability to work hard, you need the ability to push yourself forward you need the ability to have a backbone you need the ability to um have a dogged sort of determination and if you have a great idea so much the better so much the better people say to me you know what what is an entrepreneur well an entrepreneur is someone that just spots a gap in the market for a service or a product that that is either not available or available but they can make it better and they're the kind of people that well-meaning people say oh don't do that that's very risky but they are prepared to back themselves and put all those

doubters to one side and just plow through it and that that's sort of been what I've done for 30 years. As you said that relationship with David has sustained still today and he actually went on to hire you so what have you learned about the importance of like relationship building in business? I think that part and parcel of running a great business is to have really good culture and really good culture comes from trust and being candid and being honest and supporting one another and it's interesting that david sullivan is is still with me in west ham so is david gold two people who i started with from a very young age um and we're still all working

together and we still have lots to talk about lots of ideas and we still bounce off each other and we trust each other and i think that's a really fundamental part of growing a great business being candid you said that talk to me about how candid you are in business very I think it's important I have a great candid atmosphere at West Ham I want people to say what they don't think is right, what they think could be better, what needs to be changed. I think if you have too many like-minded people running the same organisation, you're so busy patting each other off on the back as you sort of follow each other off the edge of the cliff. You need people to say, hang on a minute, why is this important? How does this affect us? What does this, you know, what does this mean we stand for? What are our values? What's our purpose? You need people to be honest and candid. And I think candid

is good. And how do I go about creating a candid culture in my company? Say if I've, you know, I'm running a business and I want people to be more candid, what do I do and don't do to make sure that we arrive at that place? Well, the most important thing, the most important thing that people want from you when you're running your organization is your time they want time with you they want you to listen to them they want to be in your inner circle they want to be part of part of it that's what people want um it's you know it's become less i, as times have gone on about money and status and more about being in the know, being in that room when decisions are made and making people feel that they can be in the room, that they're part of the discussion and that you'll listen to them and that they can say what they want without worrying about, know what's going to happen to me next i think that's that's really important so say someone's in the boardroom with you and they they say something which is maybe even negative towards a decision you've made i guess you've got to be

cautious of your reaction to make sure that they don't in the future shy away from because you're a very powerful woman you know it would be quite intimidating to tell you the truth i don't think i think if you spoke to my staff they or the people that i work with they would all say that the one thing karen is great at is listening and understanding and i think the minute you think as a leader of organization you know everything is the minute you don't know anything at all you have to believe in lifelong learning. You have to believe that the people around you are valuable enough to have a different opinion to yours that is just as important. And the minute you think that they don't have an opinion that's

important as yours, you either don't have the right team or you don't have the right team with the right skills. I like to employ people better than me because it sort of proves I'm better than them, if that makes sense. And then when you have people with great knowledge and great skills, why wouldn't you listen to them when they tell you something?

I mean, of course you have debates. I want to do everything quickly. I want to do everything with strength and power and purpose. And others are like, oh, hang on a minute, let's not go at that pace. Let's try and do this. Let's do something. And sometimes you follow your gut instinct because it's important. And people say to me, well, what is a gut instinct? A gut instinct, I think it's made up of all the experiences you've had through your career. And you've sort of, when you're faced with a problem,

you've been in that movie before. You've had that problem before. Different problem in a different moment about a different thing, but very similar. And you know the outcome. So your gut instinct goes, hang on a minute, somehow I've been here before, and I know how this plays out. And I find if I follow my gut instinct, I tend to go

make the right decisions. And if I ignore it, I tend to go bad. But sometimes you need someone to go hang on a minute, take a step back, have another look at this, have a think about this. And it's a very, it's a very lonely place if you don't have people around you that want the same things as you that want to help you achieve and build the things that you you you want to do and being able to listen to people and encourage people to have their thoughts and ideas is i think really really important So how much of an organisation that you run and what parts of it are a democracy? Because I'm trying to see that balance

between you being assertive and making the call, but also operating in some respects, like a bit of a democracy where you're hearing everyone's opinions. Is there like a balancing act? Yeah, I mean, look, if you think about leadership and you should never confuse leadership with management. Management is about setting out a series of goals and managing people to deliver them. Very important, but that's not leadership. Leadership is about vision. And sometimes it's only a vision you can see. And your art as a leader is to persuade people to believe in your vision and help you deliver it. So we have large groups of people that help deliver visions. So our next vision for West

Ham, for example, is to go from a 60,000 capacity to a 62,500 capacity. And we're in the process, we've got planning permission for it in the process of going through that transition. How do we sell those extra tickets? Who do we sell them to? Do we put the price up? Where do we allocate them? How do people get in? Should there be more bars? These are huge decisions. One person cannot make those decisions. And everybody who has a stake in that decision should have a say. And that's everyone from the commercial department right through to, you know, the person who runs the disabled supporters group. Everyone needs to make that decision together. And that's how you breed great culture, listening to people, understanding the problems, finding the solutions together, having some fun while you do it. So it's not all, you know, over charts and in a very

rigid way. It is much more in a conversational way. So for example, I took a load of my team to Seville when we played in Europa. And went together we had a great time together we used the downtime to talk about things important to us and it's part and parcel of creating a place where people feel really proud to work they feel really proud of what they do and they feel really well respected and they have a lot of fun yeah yeah I just realized I'm playing at your stadium oh is it in the um the soccer age yes yes hopefully that will sell it out for you but um no I just realized as you were talking then yeah we're playing at unbelievable beautiful stadium yeah you're a big part of getting uh winning the

bid to kind of move over there on the topic i'm really excited by the way what a tremendous honor that is to get to play at your stadium but um on the topic of football then you know so david sullivan ends up hiring you from lbc yes and you join his corporation yes and then i hear it like 22 23 years old you see an advert in the financial times to for birmingham city which is in financial hardship yes and you've been administration and you persuaded david to buy yes birmingham's what well he to be fair to him he was looking at buying either a race course or a football club he was interested in doing something in that area and Birmingham had

gone into administration there was a little ad that said football club for sale I thought it's interesting and I got the details and I went to him I said there's this football club for sale you buy it and I'll run it what and he was like well football very male dominated you'll have to be twice as good as the men to be thought as even only half as good and I said well luckily that's not difficult and he said okay we'll give it a go and and we did and it was bought really quickly within three days that was like a Friday and on the Tuesday we owned the club and that was it we we went in there we we made so many mistakes but we had a great time it was such a fantastic experience you know to be given the challenge and chance of a lifetime to run a great business and change it, take it out of administration. I mean, it made a trading profit

for the first time in its history after my first year, and it was a real learning curve, but it was great fun. I love how you glossed over the fact so graciously that at 23, you took over the management of a football club after seeing an advert in the financial times and persuading david to buy it you took over the management of a football club at 23 yes i was desperate to look at least 25 big hair shoulder pads power dressing so did you just have the the courage and the conviction and the confidence to take on that role? Because football is a complete, like, I don't even think, no, I definitely would not have the confidence to

run a football club. And I've loved football. I've followed it my whole life. I've ran big businesses, but a football club is a whole different beast. It is different. And it's different because it doesn't make anything. It doesn't manufacture anything. It doesn't produce anything other than more footballers. All its assets are people. So being able to manage people and to manage the diversity of those people. So on one hand, I have someone who works in my ticket office.

Let's say they're 18 years old. They can probably earn £23,000 pounds a year and on the other hand have an 18 year old who plays football who earns 23 000 pounds a week uh and the 18 year old on 23 000 pounds a year can't imagine what it's like to have 23 000 pounds a week and a footballer on 23 000 pounds a week probably has no idea anyone lives on 23,000 pounds a year. So how do you create an environment where both of those 18 year olds feel respected and valued and feel their work is important? And it comes back to that culture by having an environment where everyone has to do everything within their skill set to make the business a success and know that that is valued and respected. And there is no ceiling on your ambition, whether it's 18 year old that wants to go into the first team or the 18 year old who works in the ticket office that one day wants to run it. It's up to you where you go. And I wanted to create a sort of a business that I wanted to

work in when I was 18, where you, you was nothing holding you back. There was no politics. There was no age, no discrimination whatsoever. The, it was there for you to do and achieve what you wanted to achieve within our environment. And that's why football is different because some people can't get their heads around the fact of what footballers earn, and they begrudge it if they're not playing well. Part and parcel of managing people is understanding people, and respecting people,

and valuing people, and giving people your time and your encouragement but more importantly than that it's about standing alongside people and supporting them when things are not going well much more than when things are going well and being their backbone and their uh and their support system very important in people's business as well as that culture what else was it that helped you take birmingham because your stint at birmingham is seen being incredibly successful, as you say, like turned the club profitable for the first time in recent history. How did you do that outside of culture? There must have been tough decisions you had to make. sort of getting rid of everybody. Lots of businesses that I am involved in, or I know friends that run, the biggest issue for lots of people that run those businesses is making the change to personnel when they need to. Because they find it very difficult if someone's been with them a long time to realise actually, that person's skill set was great when we were growing

the business. And now we need a different skill set to take it to the next level but you think but that's john john's been with us from it's very difficult but you have to sort of step above that and say it's my responsibility to ensure this business is success for the 800 people that work there and the shareholders and everything it stands for so you have to make the best decisions and you have to try and remove as much emotion as you can out of it but also always doing the right thing for the right reason and not for any other reason and I think one of the most important things in a people business is you must never underestimate the power of kindness being kind to people and being respectful of people is really important.

I think David Solomon, when he described you, and much of the reason why he has this huge admiration for you is exactly that. I think he, in an interview, said you were a good sacker. I think what he probably meant was I wasn't afraid to make tough decisions. Yeah. And some of them were really tough. Even at 23? Yeah, even at 23. I really

had a clear vision of what I wanted to achieve and knew the kind of people I needed around me to achieve it. You talked about how emotion sometimes gets in the way of those tough decisions for a lot of people. I've seen the same thing in businesses when they get a little bit romantic about the wrong objective, basically, or the wrong thing. And that ends up compromising what should be their primary objective, which is the company, you know, in their role as CEO, founder, whatever. And I've also heard you say that emotion, well, maybe that was the headline of the article. You've described yourself as not being an overly emotional person. But the article I read, remember the headline was emotion isn't in her makeup. So so something words to that effect

does that resonate with you is that something do you think consider yourself to be an emotional business person i'm very logical as a person i don't worry about the effect on me of any decision that i make as long as i feel it's the right decision. I worry about the effects it has on others. But I don't get overly emotional about things to me which are unimportant, whether that be criticism on social media or criticism, wherever that comes from. As long as I know the decision I've made and why I've made that decision, I can stand by it and I care much more about what my family and my friends and my colleagues think of me than someone on social media who I'm never going to meet don't know I'm never going to have a conversation with

so I'm not emotional from that point of view when you take on a football club as well and you've worked in football clubs for what two decades three decades three decades now you're dealing with emotional fan bases just like hysterical I I know because I'm a Manchester United fan and we're very you know emotional as a fan base right now but a hysterical almost unpleasable thankless fan base it seems at times so how has that impacted you the like the voice of the fan base in your decision making does it factor in every decision i make i make for them to make them prouder of the football club to bring them the success that they want to deliver the things they want to see at the football club and the way they want to see them whether that's what we did through the pandemic for our community what we continue to do for our community the fact that we keep our prices through the pandemic for our community what we continue to do for our

community the fact that we keep our prices low the fact that we promised them european football and we've delivered it the fact that we have great players and great culture and a great manager every every decision i make i don't make for myself i make make for them. And I do it to the very best of my ability. And sometimes they don't like those decisions. And sometimes they don't agree with those decisions. But they're all done because it's what I consider to be for the best of the club. And also, I guess sometimes they don't understand those decisions because the fan base isn't, of any football club, isn't a fan base that's educated on business and finance and the inner workings of a club. So there's lots of like misconceptions about the decisions that are being made and are they like self-profiting decisions or whatever. How important is transparency in running, I would say in any business, but really in a football club where you've got millions of people who are your, I guess, your stakeholders.

How, and like clubs don't seem to be that transparent, largely. I think it's hugely important. And I think football supporters are very knowledgeable on the business of football. It may not be a priority for them, but I think they are knowledgeable. I mean, you've looked at clubs

that have had a really difficult financial time and having a firm foundation on which to build, they know is important. And it's equally, you know, it's important that they know the parameters. I mean, we're not, you know, oligarchs or Saudi Arabian billionaires. We're English taxpayers. We do the best we can and we generate as much money as we can without putting that burden onto them, which is why we have the cheapest season tickets in the Premier League, let alone in London in a brand new stadium.

So we try and go on the journey together. But I mean, moving to the Olympic Stadium, 54,000 season ticket holders completely sold out. Some people didn't like it. But you have to make a decision that you think is right for the right reason. And going from a 35,000 seater stadium to what is going to be a 62 and a half seater stadium was a big move and a bold move. And it has proved to work out for us, which is why we're now playing in Europe. Would that have happened if we were upped in part probably not because it hadn't happened for many decades before

that so i think people don't like change and it's important that they understand why the change happens and what it means to them and how it's going to affect them and how hopefully it enriches their life as opposed to make it makes it worse do you have an objective at west ham to um be more transparent the recent event that comes to mind around transparency in football is obviously the it's like the european super league thing where suddenly one day we all wake up and all of our favorite football clubs in the like the top eight or whatever not even in the top eight but had decided they were going to join top six yeah they're not even the top yeah it wasn't even the top six there were six of them yeah exactly I can't even say that Manchester United were at the point but um they decided to join this this

super league in Europe and it seemed like it was just this like self-profiting decision which kind of ruined football or whatever and after that I saw a little bit of a change in some clubs like Liverpool that the owners came out and did like a video apologizing it was the first time I'd seen like owners post a video of them talking on social media is this one of your objectives within the organization that you run at West Ham to be more open and more of a glass box we try to let our manager and our team do the talking for us because because the the supporters don't want to hear what the ceo thinks they want to know what the team think and the manager thinks and i think from our point of view we're always very respectful of that you know some chairman write program notes some chairmen

do videos we tend to want our team to to do the for us. And we don't really want to put any more pressure on them and the manager than they all put on themselves because they're the ones that put the pressure on themselves to be successful. They don't need it from us. As I look throughout your whole life, one of the clear consistent themes in you is your hard work. Yeah.

It's just like, you know, sometimes it looks a little bit like obsession in certain parts of your story. I read about the fridge not being turned on in your apartment someone saying my friend my friend came to live with me and she said um the the sticky stuff still around the fridge and the oven had never been turned on and i what age was that 21 and you just you're working so hard you hadn't turned the fridge on you were in the office so much well the thought of cooking and eating at home never occurred to me i'd always grab something on the way in or the way out would never the thought of actually buying food because i knew if i bought food it would just go go off people talk about work-life balance right and

this like obsessive like they do these days yeah they do these days when i was starting those that phrase had never been uttered by anyone what's your opinion of the the work-life balance conversation oh i think it's uh much more sensible than anything i did definitely i think that you know in in my day you started at the bottom of the run and you worked your way up very slowly and carefully to get as high up the ladder as you could. Whereas now it feels much more like a web where you do a bit over here and a bit over there and change and do that and then don't like that. You go and do this and you have a much more rounded life. And I think technology has changed how we all work. I mean, you know, you're getting up at six o'clock in the morning

to be in the office at seven and staying to eight o'clock at night. You don't have to do that now. And I think that's so much for the better. So do you live a more rounded life? Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I don't go into my office at the crack of dawn and sit there all day and expect everybody else with their ball and chain to be there. I mean, I know from having a family and a career that actually having

flexibility is really important. And giving staff the ability to come in when they need to and work from home when they want to is important. But I guess you didn't always because I remember you reading the story about your son turning to you on holiday and saying I wish your blackberry would blow up mum or something. Yes working mother is the best title for me because there's two things that are very important in my life and that is my family and my work and I've tried my very best to to make those things work together sometimes you don't get it right. Sometimes you have to decide that family is more important than work or work has a priority that's more important than family and you have to try and juggle and you spend your whole life going sports day, board meeting,

parents evening, board meeting, you know, and you never know where you can be. And until you come to the conclusion that you cannot be in all the places you need to be, you can only do the best you can do. It's a sort of relief. And sure, my kids will always say I worked throughout their whole growing up. But they learn different things from a working parent the ability to be independent have uh ambition to value yourself to work hard those are those are very good lessons as well and you set aside time to like switch off as they say i don't need to switch off interesting i mean nothing's work unless you'd rather be doing something else, I find. And there are times when I think, oh, God, I gotta go and do that, like today. But there are times when you go, oh, I gotta go and do that. And you feel that sort of,

but the one thing, this drive for independence, it also comes with another added bonus. And that added bonus is the ability to say no. If I don't want to do anything, all I have to say is no. No, thank you. When you're building a career, you have to say yes to everything. And you have to say yes, even when you so want to say no. And you say yes, you think, how do I get out of this you try to think of a million million things you know million excuses uh to get out of it but when you are independent you can say no and it's a great freedom to not have any obligation where you have to you don't have to say yes to anything you could say no if you don't want to do something and you say yes when you want to do it and you tend to enjoy that balance of your life a lot more we met in saudi arabia for anybody that doesn't know that was the first time we'd met and i'd watched you on you know tv growing up but in saudi arabia we're

on stage together we're in a panel of five and what happened on this stage i actually came back and told all my team and i said i absolutely i love her right so i don't know if you know what i'm about to say you don't okay so we're on're on stage in Saudi Arabia, kind of like a Dragon's Den style thing where these entrepreneurs are coming up and pitching to us. And one of the panelists, one of the male panelists to my left, you went to ask a question, right? I don't know if you remember, you went to ask a question of the entrepreneur that was pitching to us. And then one of the male panelists to my left, he kind of like interrupted you and spoke and carried on speaking.

And you waited about 30 seconds. You let him finish his kind of interruption. And then in front of what must have been a thousand plus people, you turned to him, very calmly said, one second, I asked my question first. And then you carried on with your question. And the whole audience burst into applause i do remember that i do remember that and i'm sat there like whoa i do remember that i do remember that i was really quite annoyed really um i was annoyed

because we'd gone to saudi well i'd gone to saudi to talk about the importance of women and our rights and being respected and then to be spoken over on a stage I was not going to let that go under any circumstances and I think it was a good way of being able to show how it's important to stand up for yourself and not to be walked all over and i certainly was not going to be walked all over and everyone in the room understood that moment yeah big significance you described there because it was in a very unemotional professional way it wasn't in a it was the most classy like wonderful polite way to destroy someone but that's why i said to my team after I was like, the way she did

it was so like classly, classy and gracious, but it made such a profound point. And you could tell the point was made because the whole room burst into applause. But that kind of brings me on to a wider point about, and as you say, the reason why you're in Saudi is this battle that I know you've had through your career with men kind of underestimating your sexism which I guess started when you first got the job at Birmingham yeah I mean I remember my first um away game I think it was Watford and I turned up and I said hi could you tell me where the boardroom is and this little old boy little steward on the desk he went oh director's wives over there and I said it's interesting, but where is the boardroom? And he said, dear, you don't understand. The director's wives go in the ladies' room. And I said, no, I don't think it's you who understands.

I am the managing director, so I want to know where the boardroom is. And this little boy put his little glasses on. He went, oh, yes. He said, yes, you're that woman. Stay here and I'll find out what to do with you. Because there were no other women in football. So there was never a woman in the boardroom and women weren't, you know, weren't welcome in boardrooms because it was meant to be the place where the directors all met. And of course, they were all men. And I remember thinking that it was the very first door I'd kicked down. And I was determined that I would keep that door open as wide and as long as possible to get as many other women through as possible. And that is something I've spent my last 30 years doing.

It's really important to me. It's really important that there is a sense of equality and equal pay and equal respect for everything that you do, regardless of where you're from, what sex you are, what your beliefs are, how you look, where you're educated. Equality is very important to me. Why do you think it's so important to you in particular? I think because, look, at 23, I was given the challenge and chance of a lifetime, and I took that. And I knew that that started with someone having trust in me. And I knew that there were so many talented people out there that didn't have someone that

had that trust in them. And I wanted to be that person. Did you experience sort of sexist behavior from the players? Occasionally, but nothing that I couldn't deal with i mean i was very lucky in a sense that from 16 to 18 i went to a boarding school that was predominantly all boys so i had girls in the sixth form so he had like i don't know 20 girls and 600 boys so being surrounded with young men all had something to say and knowing how to deal with that was something that stood me in good good stead for my career so it wasn't difficult for me and i didn't get fazed by it and it didn't upset me and i wasn't emotionally damaged i didn't feel scarred and i didn't have to go crying to anyone i i i could with it. It didn't faze me. And it was an irrelevance of mine.

When you're part of a demographic or a marginalized community or ethnicity that is typically at a disadvantage or typically runs into a lot of like, I don't know, resistance or discrimination. One of the things that I've noticed specifically in the like black community is, or one of the concerns I had growing up was I'd seen some of my black friends that the belief that they were, they were at a disadvantage actually seemed to hurt them more than the disadvantage itself, if that makes sense. Do you have the same concern that worrying too much that you might not get in will stop you from taking the actions to get in if that makes sense i'm sure every every woman at some point in their career when they've had to say shall i stop to have a family what is that going to you know how is that going to affect

me how is that going to affect my pay my is that going to affect my pay, my career prospects, my promotion, my standing? I'm sure every woman at that point has had that thought. And unfortunately, or fortunately, as we, you know, women give birth to all the taxpayers in the world, we deserve a break, really. So I'm sure it is a thought that crosses people's mind. I mean, I read some research that 54,000 returning new mothers to work are so badly treated because they are considered to be a burden to the teams in which they work. People are going to think they're going to want to go early. They're not going to be as focused. They're going to have brain fog.

That they are either hounded out of their jobs or choose to leave. And that's a shocking statistic, really. So yeah, I can see how people are just, you know, waiting for that moment when someone, you know, when you do have to say, I have to go and pick my son up from school, I have to leave early. It's a difficult conversation and you're considered to be, you know, less valuable because you have these real other issues. So I can understand how it plays on people's mind, but it's important for women like me to change attitudes. Because if I don't do, if women like me achieve something, if we don't use our voice to change it for the next generation who's going to do it one of my guests pointed out to me um a couple of weeks ago that when a woman is successful and she's a mother people always ask the question like oh my god how do you how do you do it whereas when a guy is successful even if he's a father no one no one cares about no no one asks no one asks because they presume he's got a wife yeah he's doing it for him yeah like joe wicks joe wicks has been here once or

twice and when joe wicks is doing all of his stuff p for joe etc no one is on his instagram going what about the kids yeah but um we've had women entrepreneurs that have been here who do a very very similar thing to joe wicks and it's the question that they get asked all over their instagram if they do a workout on their social media it's like well where are the kids but i think there's two reasons for that one is other women want to know how do you manage that so you can inspire me to to find a way um and the other is because it's uh it's an easy thing to ask a woman and that's the lazy question you know where are your kids what do you do with your kids how do you manage with your kids it's a a bit like whenever there's a picture of a woman,

there's always what she's wearing. Whereas never for a man. Maybe because women wear better clothes. I don't know. But it's always about what you're wearing, where did you get it, how much was it? And it's always defined you you know uh so and so in her bright pink jacket they don't say oh steven in his blacks i wish they did paul your husband paul been together since 1995 i think you met him at Birmingham yes he was like the star player how's that been you know being

such a career driven person um who's had these fairly all-consuming jobs throughout the years you know it's funny when I there's an interesting thing that happens in the comments section when because I ask every single guest every single podcast about relationships it's not something I'm just really intrigued by because I've struggled over the years with my work and trying to balance the relationship. But when I ask women this, people, again, I understand why. They assume that I'm asking it because for the same reasons we've just described.

Like I'm trying to understand how you can be a wife, but also hardworking. So I just want to put that out there because I see a lot of the questions. But no, I'm really curious. You know, you've been this pretty relentless entrepreneur for the last three decades, whatever it's been. How has it been to manage a relationship and be that person and a partner while also being the tremendous businesswoman?

Well, you have to remember that we've been married a very long time. And when we first got together, Paul's career was much more dominant than mine, really. And he was traveling around playing at different clubs playing for his country and I was the one staying at home looking after the kids having my career and and working around that and he was the one going around and then he retired from football and my career took off a bit and then he became a football manager and I stayed home more with the kids and we we sort of, we balanced our lives to give each other the space to do the things that we love

that make us rounded individuals. I have no jealousy of anything he does and equally to me. So for example, when I'm filming The Apprentice, I don't know how it works on Dragon's Den, but when we film The Apprentice, when don't know how it how it works on on Dragon's Den but when we film The Apprentice when it says it's 4am the voiceover says it's 4am it really is 4am and we work 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week for five weeks to produce that show without a break there isn't a day off and it is really hard going. So I always say to Paul, it's much better if he's not there. Because I want to get up at four o'clock in the morning, have a bath, put the lights on,

turn the television on, leave when I want, then get back maybe eight o'clock at night, go straight to bed ready for a 4am start the following day or whatever it is. So he goes to Canada to see his family because his parents live in Canada. And he has a great time with his family. And I can focus on what I have to do without any distractions. Because what happens during that period is let's say he might say, should go out for dinner tonight? And I'll say yes. And then I don't get home because filming's overrun and I'm not home till one o'clock in the morning. And they say, oh, you're coming, you're not coming. And I just, it's too much. It's on top of everything else, it's too much. It's much better if I have my space to do what I've got to do and he has his space to

do what he's got to do. But the one thing that we have in common is we've built a great family and we respect each other. We love our kids. our kids are our whole life even though they are you know 25 and 23 we everything is about our family and everything we do together is is really important and I have to say if you said to me you got one day left on the earth what would you do with it I'd want to spend it with my husband and my two kids because we have such a great laugh together and we're good friends and there's a real bond of family between us. How important is it to be candid? Because that's kind of what you were describing there,

being so candid with how you're feeling and what you're going through. A lot of people don't have that in relationships. Oh, we're definitely candid. We're definitely candid. And how important is that, do you think? I'm asking for myself now. I think it's really important

because you can't pretend to be someone you're not. It's a bit like in an early part of a relationship. I've got a friend who's got an early part of a relationship and the guy she is with likes the opera. She cannot stand it. But she's saying, oh yes, love the opera. And I'm like, why don't you just say hate the opera? I couldn't think of anything I'd rather do less. Because when he finds out, yes love the opera and i'm like why don't you say hate the opera i couldn't

think of anything i'd rather do less because when he finds out actually hate the opera and then or or you find out you've got to go more to the opera and you're going to resent it why not just be honest from the start say i really can't stand the opera you go you have a nice time let me know what it's like i think it's probably our relationship is not needy. So he doesn't need me. I don't need him. We want to be together, but we don't need to be together. I don't need to know where he is every minute of the day. I don't need to know what his thoughts are on every single thing or everything I do. I think if he could have me a little bit more needy, probably would. But he knows that I'm very self-sufficient and don't need much from anyone. And I think that's, again, going from boarding school where you're very much on your own.

You'd like your own company. But we don't, there's not a neediness in the relationship where uh like i say to him oh i've been invited to go um to to buckingham palace for um dinner with the queen i and it's a white so i'm not going to that i'm not a white tie i'm not getting a white tie and he won't come like he's not if he doesn't want to come to anything he won't come uh and i'll say oh i've got this you know thing do you fancy doing that and he'll say no definitely not or he'll say should we i fancy doing this and i'll say, oh, I've got this, you know, thing. Do you fancy doing that? And he'll say, no, definitely not. Or he'll say, should we, I fancy doing this. And I'll say, no, I don't want to do that. So we, we very candid with each other and it works for us.

This is the single biggest mistake I made at the start of my relationship. I mean, my girlfriend had a conversation and we discussed it was, I was saying yes too much to things to try and please, because you feel like that's what's needed. Whereas I came to learn over the years, and I literally had this conversation with my girlfriend over the last month that in fact I need to just be honest more regardless of how I think it might impact us because you see you're saying yes when you really want to say no yeah and then you've got this sort of underlying resentment and it's

much better to just say no and suffer the consequences yeah definitely forever because as you say with the opera i then have to try and live out this life forever exactly exactly and i think it's important to have your own space and your own friends and do your own thing um you know you're married but you're not joined at the hip and there's of course there has to be a level of mutual respect there and and honesty and trust and all of those things. That goes without saying. But you're not the same person. And it is okay to have different interests.

And it is okay. My husband is a gym bunny. He's a professional athlete. He's at the gym morning, noon, and night. I could not think of anything I'd rather do less. As you can see, I'm not a gym bunny. I don't go to the gym. I've got no desire to go to the gym.

This is I'm going to the gym. Yep, bye. And that's it. And I say I'm going to gym bunny I don't go to the gym I've got no desire to go to the gym this is I'm going to the gym and I'm like yeah bye and that's it and I say I'm going to a board meeting like yeah bye like he can think of anything he'd rather do less but it's

we respect each other's space and views and ideas and we don't have to debate every last thing or every last decision and everything's okay like we don't worry about anything we don't okay like we we don't worry about anything we don't not say we don't worry about anything we don't sweat about stuff uh you know i don't care

if he doesn't pick up his socks interesting the whole world is not going to stop because i've picked up his socks but i tell you what really is important in a relationship is understanding when other people are under pressure and being there for them and I don't mean being in there with them but I mean just being there for them and doing the things that really matter to them as opposed to big romantic gestures I can't I mean I'm not a flower person i don't particularly like flowers if someone bought me flowers it's okay but i'm not a big i don't need flowers but my husband used to fill my car with petrol so it was one less thing i had to worry about and it's small things like that that build a foundation because you know that person's there for you even though it's not a big romantic gesture

that the whole world can see because that's really not very important to me have you ever done the love languages test thing no i don't even know what it is so i'm not into this kind of woo-woo i think thing but this is actually quite from just 17 magazine or something i don't even know it's a series of questions which try to understand how the the type of love indicator that you most appreciate and it tends to be the case that busy entrepreneurial people their their love language is and as is mine is acts of service and it's exactly what you've described the tiny little thing to help in a moment so like helping you pack your luggage when they know you're traveling or just doing that tiny and for me when i did i did the survey with my girlfriend i'll send it to you mine was acts of service for

me the most meaningful thing someone can do for me in a relationship is exactly what you said it's like yeah help me with a tiny thing that you know yeah but is his sort of love language per se the same some people's is like touch words of affirmation acts of service or gifts is one of them i think you take any of the above does he get it yes he does no we we uh i think for us the most important thing for us is having a laugh having lots of family and friends that we enjoy their company with and you know it's interesting lots of couples have been married a long time. They need lots of people around them to break up. You know, they have lots of friends over, lots of do lots of things, big parties and stuff like that. I'll tell you the one thing he does for me every day without fail

is he takes the dog for a walk, which is very important. And he picks up a coffee and he brings it straight to me. Because he knows I cannot start my day without without a coffee and that's his big love moment every day is there a need to maintain desire when you're sort of two almost three decades into your relationship is there things to do is there a strategy to keep it this is the wrong podcast do you know what i mean date nights i don't know is there something that i should be thinking about when i get well i think from our point of view our kids are grown up so every night's a date night for us but i think doing things that are different and unusual.

I mean, we went on this fantastic tour of Thailand where we went all over, did really crazy, wonderful things that were really good fun. So we try and do more experience-led things. But equally, we are prepared to go in our track suits and go out to the pub. I mean, I guess our happy place, if I have to think about happy place, is Soho Farmhouse. That's a real happy place for us. And we tend to try and go one weekend a month. And we spend two nights and really don't do anything. Take the dog on long walks, have to drink watch a film go out to eat lots of food just relax one thing you've never i've never seen you talk about from from all that i read is mental health your own mental health this is kind of a a fairly new conversation that's happened in the last 10 years but have you had experiences with things like anxiety or depression within your

own sort of mental health no No, I haven't. Maybe I have, but I just haven't focused on it or haven't really thought about it. I think we all have bad days, don't we, where we're sort of more snappy than others and days that were really good. I started HRT recently and I found myself singing in the kitchen the other day, which is something I don't think I've ever done. And I was like, Christ, this stuff's working. So but no, I have this resilience from this, you know, from my very early age to be able to put things to one side and focus on what needs to be done and not really worry too much about it, which is probably both a blessing and a curse. And you just you describe yourself was reading one of your books, do you describe yourself as a feminist? Definitely. Yeah. And what does that mean to you?

To me, it means equality. It doesn't mean wanting more than men. It doesn't mean disliking men. It just means that women's rights should be equal to men's. It has been stigmatized, hasn't it? The word feminism is this kind of like, I feel like it's become a little bit of a, well well the stigma is it's kind of this anti-man rhetoric whereas really i think men should be feel like they're feminists too definitely every every man has a mother um

has an aunt has a sister has a cousin has a female in his life that should want them to be treated equally i mean it's, it's a truth. For every pound a man makes, a woman makes 86p, and it's going to take 100 years to close that gap. And if you get into industries like finance, that gap is much bigger than that. So it's just about equality. It's about not being discriminated against because you're a woman,

not being paid less because you're a woman, not being able to earn your worth because you're a woman that's what it means to me as we look forward at the future you've achieved so so much in your life in your career it seems like from what you said earlier on that you weren't ambitious when you're young it seems like you've probably surpassed your childhood early years ambitions already is that accurate i don't want to put words in your mouth but is that accurate yeah Yeah, I would think so. Yeah. So what's driving you now?

What's the thing flipping the duvet and getting you out of bed if you've surpassed all those ambitions? I mean, the toughest thing about being a success is you've got to keep on being a success. There's no point in having a successful year last year to do nothing this year. And what drives that is ambition. And I really am

disappointed when people are afraid to say they're ambitious because we tend to think ambitious people are ruthless people and that's not the case. Ambition is that spark. It's that fire inside of yourself that won't let you settle for anything other than what you think you deserve and what you want and uh i love what i do i feel so proud that i run west ham i feel so proud that i'm in the house of laws and the work that's important there that has to be done um i love the businesses that i'm involved in the charities that i'm involved in, the charities that I'm involved in. I picked the things I wanted because I wanted to say yes to them. And I don't have anything I secretly wanted to say no,

but say yes. So I think a sort of all-rounded life, whether it's doing The Apprentice, something I love, it's such good fun. I mean, I don't know how it is on your show, but on my show, there's a real level of support and we're all good friends. I mean, Alan, Cla. I don't know how it is on your show, but on my show, there's a real level of support and we're all good friends. I mean, Alan, Claude and I would go on holiday together, go out for dinner. We're, we're friends. We're firm friends first and foremost. And I love

what I do and I just want to keep doing it. Is there a goal or an ambition for you? Or is it more of the same? Is that the, do you have like do you have like when you think okay 10 years from now I've never had that I've never set milestones I mean I did have when I was younger I had a flat and I wanted a flat that had heating and then I wanted a flat that had heating and a washing machine and then I wanted a flat that had heating and a washing machine and a car so I did have those sort of milestones as opposed to ambitions but I don't have any of that anymore it's nothing I want I don't ever look at people and think car. So I did have those sort of milestones as opposed to ambitions, but I don't have any of that anymore. There's nothing I want. I don't ever look at people and think, oh, I wish I had that, or I really want one of those. I actually don't want anything. I don't have a car. I don't need a car. I like to walk. I don't have a lot of stuff. Some people I know have

wardrobes the size of your club with so many clothes in i buy a load of clothes for the apprentice and i give them all away to dress for success or to my staff when i'm finished i don't have a lot of stuff and i've never wanted a lot of things so i don't have this sort of oh i must get a boat or a yacht. I mean, I'd never want anything like that. I love what I do. I'm very happy in my life. I'm very content. I wake up every morning without anxiety. I never feel I've bitten off more than I can chew. I never think how am I going to see through the day that is ahead of me. I'm never thinking about how I pay my bills. I'm never thinking about how do I keep up with the Joneses. I'm never worrying about those things that weighs a lot of people down and gives them a lot of

issues. I'm very happy. I'm very content. I've lived a full life. They say you only live once, but I think if you live it right, once is probably enough. Amen. I'm reflecting on 18, 19 yearyear-old Karen that starts at Saatchi, and then the person that sat in front of me today. And I'm wondering, based on that full life and that experience you've had and all those boardrooms and experiences you've had, what you would say to a 19... Because there's going to be...

I know that on several platforms, the majority of our listeners are female. What you would say to those young women that are starting out in their career? What would you whisper in their ears? They're on their Monday morning walks today and I see them uploading this on their stories. What would you say to them in terms of navigating their future?

I would say grasp every opportunity. Try as hard as you can. Never be afraid to fail. And I was going to swear, but I won't. Swear? Please to fail and i was going to swear but i won't swear and stand up for yourself and and trust me you do not want to get to 52 and look back on your life and say i wish i would have you will always regret the things you don't do more than the things that you do so go and do stuff thank you it's been honestly such a huge honor and pleasure to speak to you because yeah i was in my team now i've had

this like weird captivated crush on you ever since i saw you in saudi arabia because of that strength and that your wisdom your strength and your and all you've achieved in your life and it's it's very very inspiring and interesting to especially the path you've walked in your life and it's it's very very inspiring and interesting to especially the path you've walked in such a male-dominated industry and how how you you've you'd forged your own success at just like 22 years old that that real pivotal moment where you take over a football club utterly fascinating and um yeah and we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest writes a question for the next guest. Oh, goodness. You could have told me.

I could have thought something really, really... No, no, no. This is the question that's been left for you by a certain individual. Okay, interesting. When you walk out of here after this beautiful conversation with Stephen, I didn't write this, after this beautiful conversation with Stephen, do you feel enriched? And if so, what would you say to the next person you meet on your experience?

I would say that sometimes it's very difficult to decide to share your story because you open yourself up and people get to know you in a way that maybe you never thought they would. But actually, sharing your story, you hope inspires someone else. And it also gives you the opportunity to look back and reflect on your own life. Because many of us are so busy moving forward that we stop to say, oh shit I was 19 once what was I doing when I living in that horrible apartment with no washing machine and no heating and when I didn't have a car and how I worried about paying my bills it's it's easy when you're 52 to forget who you were at 18 and it's opportunities like this when you think about your life and the journey that you've been on that you can you know surprise yourself and you don't do many interviews do you i don't i'm i'd steal well clear because i think it's time for other women to speak i think that you know

it's like i could take a whole load of non-execs and i could take valuable positions that other women could have i've had my time i'm 52 i. I've been there. I've done all that. I don't want to appear in OK Magazine. I don't, you know, want to be posing in a in a way i can i want nothing for myself out of this other than i hope that people have have enjoyed it i certainly believe they would have thank you so much karen for your time today. Thank you for your wisdom. You're such a classy, graceful, inspiring human being. And yeah, you've inspired me in so many ways, not just from watching you growing up on The Apprentice, but also in Saudi Arabia and again today. So I have a debt of gratitude that I owe to you and thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for watching!