The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Krept: From Rapper To Building A £17.5 Million Baby Business!

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

Krept is a rapper and one half of the the iconic rap duo Krept and Konan. The host of the Rap Game, Krept is a star of our tv screens as well as the recording studio. And with his multiple business successes, Krept has built empires from scratch in multiple areas of his life. It’s a world away from experiencing crime and poverty as a young boy. Krept has routinely looked into the darkest areas of his psyche to find the motivation to propel himself forwards, finding unexpected truths about the human condition in the process. Krept’s been stabbed, had to pull his business back from the suicide of his partner, and built his way out of Croydon. There’s so many times in his life where he’s had to bounce back after unimaginable setbacks. But he did it. In full context and with frank honesty, he tell us exactly how he did it. Follow Krept: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kreptplaydirty/?hl=en Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue someone grabbed my chain and then i just remember seeing a bbc live music event was ended early last night. The rapper Crept was attacked backstage. This was a millimeter deeper and it would have been a different scenario. He's a rapper and has collaborated with the likes of Teddy One and Stormzy. Conor's stepdad was killed. Carl ran out of the room trying to fight them. Two more gunshots, everything silent.

We can either go and retaliate or we take this music thing seriously and actually try to make it out of where we're coming from. The next thing we put out went viral. Skepta reached out and said, yo, we want to bring you guys on tour. It was such a life-changing moment for us. We started doing radio, TV, and we started branching out.

Nala's baby, full of natural goodness. You would never put a rapper launching a baby skincare line in the same sentence. You should always feel uncomfortable, almost like you shouldn't be here. And that's the growth room, man. You can't be afraid of that. Do you know what the company's valued at? 17 and a half. What do you think Blaine would think an Isle of Baby? Cadet whose real name was Blaine Johnson has died.

He was on the brink of doing something great. What's on your mind? We've got this complex. Like, I'm not going to cry. Like, it makes you feel like less of a man or something. I swear, this scares me. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. first of all thank you for being here i think i've got to be honest i think you're one of the

smartest looking guests i've ever had sit in the chair i'm very jealous of your outfit today thank you man it's sick i mean the design is a friend of mine who um who i met in manchester a couple of months back but where i wanted to start with you is um back in South London back in Croydon I want you to if you can give me the context in which you were you were raised and when I say context I mean like what were those things in your environment at an early age that ultimately shaped who you were and left those little kind of footprints on your personality and character? To be honest, like when I was younger, when I was in school, like all I knew and all my friendships knew were, you know, gangs and, you know, that kind of lifestyle. That's all

that we saw. Like, you know, everybody that I'll go to school with or you know outside of school that was that's that's what it was and you know we got caught up in a load of nonsense growing up but I was one of those people that always saw the bigger picture and I always thought I don't want to end up going to jail and I don't want to end up going to jail and I don't want to end up dying because that's what I saw. Like, I've lost so much friends due to, you know, coming from where we're coming from and, like, seeing friends that I've grown up with

pass away to violence or crimes or, you know, friends. I've got loads of friends that are in jail for life and some for even things they didn't even do so I always used to be like you know when when when my friends was doing this or doing that I'd always be like you know I'm gonna try and do this and try and do that and I'm because I do not want to end up in jail or dying like that was you know that's what we was used to like and it's sad because it's like it felt so normal like the first time you know I was like 13 and hearing gunshots outside my house and coming out and someone's on the floor dead and I'm a 13 year old young boy and

it was like it was normal it wasn't even like something that seemed abnormal at the time it just felt like this is how it is when you live where you live or where you're from where you're from and that's what it was do you know I mean and I feel like I've always always had my eye on being more than that like all the time so when you know my friends was getting involved in certain things I was like no I'm gonna I'm gonna finish college I'm gonna go to university and I'm gonna try my best to keep myself you know on a positive path like and I always thought this all the time and I always said yeah I'm not gonna I'm not this all the time. And I always said, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fall into this trap because I'm seeing, you know,

my friends falling into it. I'm seeing my friends go in jail. I'm seeing my friends die. And I'm like, like, when is it? And it's, and it doesn't end. It doesn't stop. You know, new issues happen. Now, you know, you've got a problem with these people because of this or like,

and it just, it's a constant cycle. And I feel like i didn't want to get trapped in that cycle what was your family unit like um my my mom and dad wasn't together um my father went to jail for a lot of my childhood um and you he, so he wasn't around for a lot of the important moments in my life and that age where I feel like you probably need, you know, a father figure there. Um, he wasn't, um, because he was in jail. And, you know, again, that's what I was, you know, seeing. And that was what was a norm to me, you know.

Um, growing up, my mum was single and it was, she was just, you know, seeing, and that was what was a norm to me, you know. Growing up, my mum was single, and she was just, you know, doing her best to look after me and my brother. And I feel like she'd done an incredible job. But there was still... I'll never forget, there was a moment where... ..something happened and police came to my house and I'll never forget my mum said, I failed as a mum.

And I can't explain how that made me feel and I was like, there's no way on earth that I'm going to let those words even become a a reality so I remember from there I was like I'm going to make this woman proud like if it's my the last thing I do and that was a really really big you know motivational moment for me why did that matter so much to you because my mum did everything she could you know she tried her best as a single mum she tried her best she always you know wanted the best for me and wanted the best for my brother and you know being a single mum knowing that there's bills and knowing that she was stressed and this that that, and the fourth. Like, I know she wanted the best for me

and me feeling like, you know, I haven't even tried to appreciate or repay her for that. And her feeling like a failure, even though she'd done her absolute best. So that resonated with me and it really hit me when she said that. And, yeah, I remember from then like the motivation I had I was like I'm going to because I didn't even want to stay in uni or I didn't want to like I was thinking that's long I don't and I was like no I'm gonna go all the way and I'm gonna graduate I'm gonna make her run and say my son's got a degree I'm

gonna do that and I'm gonna do my music and I'm gonna be successful in that and she's gonna be proud I spoke it I knew it was gonna happen because I was so determined from from there to make it happen so yeah often when you're from an environment where people are being tempted to choose a nefarious life so when they're being tempted to choose a slightly you know maybe it's a criminal lifestyle or something because they don't have the same level of opportunities in that environment so often people look back and they can almost see how it could have gone another way for them how they could have been tempted in that other path because there's no doubt temptation to choose another path would have been present in

that environment when you look back on on those times can you can you see how things could have gone another way 100 like there there there was you know there was one specific moment that um i remember when it was when conan had a a situation where his stepdad was killed and his mother was shot. Can you tell me about that incident? Yes. You read about that in a song. Yes, a song called My Story, where Conan was, I think it was coming back from radio and Conan, when Conan got back, basically there was people waiting for him and he was walking to his door and

he had his key in his hand and he's always been a paranoid person. So he's always like ready to put his key in and because like he was always alert and he always he's just an alert person he's always alert on point and if this was probably anybody else they probably would have died but he was just by his door and then he heard people running behind and he just knew straight away he didn't look back he just put his key in the door turn it open it closed it and then that's when you know he realized like okay someone is definitely here to try and kill me and they've got in the house um and they've basically, when they're holding the door upstairs, they've shot through the door. And one of the bullets, you know, hit Conan's mum.

And then Conan's stepdad at the time ended up wrestling with them and then he ended up getting shot and dying and then the guys left but you know it was that situation that happened and as you can imagine what that what effect or you know that would have had on him and everybody him so I remember we were sitting in a car and our friends was like look we can either go and do this and and retaliate or whatever whatever it was and I remember there was that moment of oh we we we take this music thing seriously and you know don't throw everything away right now and actually try to make it out of where you know we're coming from and it was that moment

of like we're gonna do the music we're gonna focus and put our all into this and you know see what happens and that was like a moment where that could have easily gone a completely different way like we literally had nothing was we i remember we had an argument

over the last bit of chicken and chips because that's the only money we had like we had nothing and conan was homeless like it was like probably the one of the worst periods of our lives and definitely Conan's for sure um and I feel like from there we done Otis which was like a cover of Jay-Z and Kanye's song. And that song went viral. And it was like, it was the perfect time for something like that to happen because we could have done that and not done what we've, you know, not done anything. And then we could have just you know somehow slipped back

into or whatever but it was literally from that moment the next thing we put out bearing in mind we've been putting out music you know and we've never had a moment like that before and the next thing we put out after this disaster has just happened the next thing we put out went viral and everything changed from there. Literally, you know, we put this out and then from there we ended up, you know, Skepta reached out and said, yo, we want to bring you guys on tour. And, you know, for any musician, when you go on tour and do live music, it's like, for the first time, it makes you feel like you're really a musician like i'm really doing this for real and that was really like a a special moment for us that he's asked us

to come on tour during this period we was we were so new as artists Skepta didn't you know we would have just done the tour for free he didn't even he didn't even just have us on the tour supporting he paid us like he paid us per show like and when I mean we were so we was like we're gonna get paid to come on tour with you on a tour that is already sold out he didn't need us there and he had us on on the tour and paid us as. And it was just like such a life changing moment for us. Like, you know, I just feel like the stars aligned or something, but you know, being in that moment where you're like about to throw everything away

to then you're on stage live with thousands of people in front of you. Like, from that transition to that, you know, you couldn't make that up. Like, that was just, it was just a crazy time. And I feel like, yeah, man, I feel like we obviously made, you know, the right decision. And, yeah, we've never looked back since, man. The person that carried out that attack, did you ever find out why they did it?

And did they get caught? It's weird because we don't actually... We'll never know who done it because... You'll never know who done it? No, because we... There was two people there. Oh, right. And one person got arrested for it but at the end of the day you still don't know you know who done it and they got sentenced yeah they got sentenced i think they got found with the weapon or something like that but um yeah there was two so we don't actually know

who's done it up until today we know a lot about mental health these days it's more of a conversation now but how does you know you're by his side how does Conan deal with that both of his parents

being shot one of them dying Conan is like it's one of them dying conan is like it's one of those ones where i can't even explain on his behalf because it's not even something i can even comprehend being in that situation um what what i know he we have done is stayed doing music and doing what we love and actually growing in that world and actually. I feel like that has been a major distraction from the harsh reality of what's happened in his life. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like if we didn't have the success we had, I don't know what would have happened.

It's interesting because I'm not sure if success, success heals, like you use the word distraction. It's actually the word that I would naturally use. It kind of distracts you from the pain. And then what you tend to see when I sit here with a lot of people is they, they still have to, at some point address that pain or alcohol or other things.

Yeah. And we see, see that a lot with musicians, especially, you know, so that's kind of what I'm getting to you've been through the same you've been through the same hurt and you've lost people in your life as well so you can kind of speak to that as opposed to speaking to conan situation but how especially in like in that culture in like the black culture and especially

black men they don't talk about mental health, really. Especially 10 years ago, no fucking chance. No, definitely not. It's like we've got this, I don't know, complex or we've got this thing where we're like, oh, we're all right. Like I can get through it. Like I'm not going to cry. And I don't know why or how or why we've been conditioned in this way,

but we have and we feel like, you know, we don't need to talk to anybody about feeling down. Like it makes you feel like less of a man or something. I'm not sure what it is, but, you know, it's definitely something that's important to me because, like, one of my best friends committed suicide and I have no idea why up until today. You're talking about Nash?

Nash, yeah. And I don't know why. Like the last time I was with him, we were celebrating that we just finished the shop. Like, bro, we did it. And he was like, I can't believe we've done it. We've done it. And he was so happy. And then he was showing me can't believe we've done it we've done it and he was so happy and then he was showing me like look at the emails i'm getting from people like they're

showing interest and he was so excited about it but then a few days later he jumped in front of a train like what was what did I miss? I was with him, spoke to him all the time. Like, and it was just, it was like, and we're like this. And he didn't not once express or make me feel that he was depressed or going through something mentally. Like, I didn't know. And I'm with him every day. I didn't know and I'm with him every day I didn't see it so that's how I know how important it is you know for us as men and black men to you know really not you know hide

and cover and you know in our feelings and our emotions and there's nothing wrong with talking about it or telling someone or going to therapy. Like there's nothing wrong with that. I feel like, I don't know why, I don't know why, but that situation made me realise how bad it is because I genuinely didn't see anything wrong with him like we're speaking all the time he's updating me look what this has just happened I'm going here I'm going there I'm doing this like oh this is just coming to the shop got this order like we're like you know and then we celebrated

the fact that we finished the shop and it was built so for context here you this is when you launched um crepes and cones yes so before launching crepes and cones nash was the person that was going to run it and manage the store and for anybody that doesn't know so i kind of heard the story that someone a fan had tweeted you guys one day about how funny it would be or something that if you open the restaurant called crepes and cones yeah um you trademarked it or yeah no i basically i i can't remember i had a conversation with someone one time and it and like i remember the the name came into my head and then i just tweeted one time right i tweeted in 2014 i said one day we're going to have a restaurant called Crepes and Cones. And I just thought it was a sick idea, sick name, sick play off of the name. But in 2014, I never had anything.

So it was just a really big, just putting it out there, by the way, one day, I don't know if this is ever going to happen because I'm not in a position to make this happen, but feel like i will be one day and i just put out the tweet and then i saw people were like oh that'll be sick that'll be sick loads of retweets oh that'll be sick and then it was like okay one day like we'll revisit that conversation and then um did you trademark it i didn't you know that's nice i didn't i still no one did luckily we trademarked it a bit later down but we didn't even i don't think i could afford to trademark it at the time like i don't think i could have afforded to at the time when i when i tweeted it but i remember um speaking

to nash about it and saying yeah one day like you know i'm this is what we need to do this one day and he was like that'd be sick that'd be sick but he was working in property and he was doing really Like, you know, this is what we need to do this one day. And he was like, that'd be sick, that'd be sick. But he was working in property and he was doing really well doing what he was doing. And I remember he called me and he was like, I want to, you know, it's time for change, man. I want to do something else. What about the idea that you were saying?

The crepes and cones thing? And I was like, yeah yeah let's do it and this was at a time when I I could do it and you know and Conan was like yeah let's like he he already it was something that we wanted to do do you know I mean so um it was just like who are we going to get to lead this for us because obviously we we're musicians, we need someone that, you know, and when Nash broke down, you know, everything that he had been researching and learned and, you know, people that he was going to get on board to be a part of it and this,

that and the fourth, it was just like, this makes sense, let's do it. And there's no better person to do it with than one of our best friends. Do you know what I mean? And so we decided, yeah're gonna do it um and yeah that was a nightmare in itself like you know just building a shop like having builders going missing or you know people trying to be middlemen skimming off the top and this down the fourth and taking advantage of you because you're musicians yes so we probably ended up spending triple what we should have spent on building it um and it took like a year like when i mean me and nash was probably sleeping in that shop there was days

we had we did sleep in the shop because we you know we had to deliveries and the next day and you know we need to get this done and you know we need to do that or do this and and then we didn't trust any builders we didn't trust anyone so we had to be there while they was doing it to make sure they're doing it in a way that we told them they're going to do it you know because we leave them they'll come back and then something's not done or and it's like what have you been doing in the last week and it was and it was just it was a it was a probably just the worst like you know experience in terms of our intro into this business world uh i hated it like i was i'm

not gonna sit here and say like yeah it was great and it wasn't i hated it i put my back up and it was like okay i don't i don't i know stepping into this world i'm not gonna trust anyone now and that really that restaurant really changed me as a businessman really changed me as a as a the way i think and you know the way i approach things and in terms of like before if somebody would come to me and say this is how much this costs to do this i would probably be like okay sounds reasonable let's do it now i'm gonna ask 10 other people i get other people to ask another 10 other people and gauge if this makes sense and this is the right thing to do or not or i'm getting the best value for money before i wouldn't do that and i

do that with everything it's like i'm i'm double checking everything every aspect is this the best kind of thing to do or is there a way i can do this in a better way for the same price and it's just made me like that and it i feel like it's turned me into a bit of a monster not a monster but like i'm just really not the same person i was when i was making you know crepes and cones that's what adversity does though you you build a callous and that becomes like self-defense, right? So more than anything, you want people to know that you're going to ask those 10 questions

before they even come to you. Because then they won't try it. So you're playing self-defense, which is what I do as well. It's like, if you know I'm going to ask 10 questions, you're not going to give me the bad price the first time you come up. Because you know.

Because you know. Every time I interrogate it, even if I end up saying yes, I'm going to ask you all kinds of shit. Yeah, I get that a lot now, like from people that I use and work with and they're like, oh, here he goes again on his tangents

and asking 101 questions and I'm like double checking everything. But that comes from experience of being burnt, right? Yes, of being burnt, yeah. And we felt like we was burnt really badly on crepes and cones. Well, did it teach you about business? Because that was your first real like foray into business.

I mean, you had like the apparel brand before then? Yeah, we done, we sold like a lot of merch, which done, that was what actually helped us make the money to invest in our music. So the dude selling the, you know, the apparel, the merch and stuff like that that's what we actually ended up

getting money from to invest and do music videos and do that independently what's that because that experience setting up a restaurant I mean I used to work

in a restaurant when I was my mum's restaurant when I was young when I was 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 the chaos of customers and complaints chaotic

like it that because people someone said to me, when I was like, I'm doing a restaurant, they was like, that's like the hardest business to get into. Why are you doing that?

And I was like, really? Like, I didn't. And then it became extremely harder for us because, you know, Nash was our guy. And, you know, us having Nash getting the staff, hiring everybody, dealing with everything, accounts, this, that and the fourth. And he was our guy leading this. And then the week we're launching on the Saturday,

that earlier on in that week, he committed suicide. Take me back to when you found out that that had happened. I think it was like someone was coming to the shop to do something. I can't remember what it was i think it was like someone was coming to the shop to do something i can't remember what it was but i was doing an update from nash on something to do with the shop and um didn't hear from the whole day and i was like this is odd because he would usually update us on everything like oh this has happened and he was so excited i i imagine this has happened i found it found the sickest bartender oh my god i found the sickest chef look look and and it was just like loads of that usually and we're a week away from you know launching we

couldn't hear from him the whole day and then we was like where where is nash like wow have you got through to him and we're asking asking, like, what's going on? And, you know, we're messaging him, trying to call him. And then... When we was at the restaurant, yeah, I got a call and someone was like, it's Nash and he's dead

and I was like and it was like he jumped in front of a train like I'm even more confused because one of the last interactions we had we was walking across the road and I remember the bus was coming and he grabbed me and was like get out the road like what are you doing like and he's like and i remember

him going bro don't do that to me you scared me like that kind of thing like the bus was coming and he grabbed like it was a moment of oh the bus was coming like straight away i was thinking about i was like that there's no way he did that because I remembered like why would he do that how what was wrong why didn't we see it like there was so much questions like and I just remember breaking down outside Notting Hill like tears crying I was like there's no way this is real and then we was gonna just cancel the launch and then someone close to him was like he wouldn't want you to do that and we made a decision said you know what we're just gonna do it um we ended up having to find you know all the people the stuff people that he was contacting and try and

get hold of them to keep this thing going for launch um and i managed to kind of get majority but not everybody or everything in line that he had prepared we're grieving and we're launching and we don't know what we're doing at all at the same time so and the day it's launch day you know we've got the mayor of Croydon coming down, cutting the ribbon at the shop, and the whole time I'm thinking about Nash. Like, Nash should be here. We're taking a picture, Nash should be in this picture.

Like, when we open these doors, I don't even know what's going on. So people thought we was there because of PR, and we're in a restaurant serving people, doing this, doing that. No, we wasn't. I wasn't in there because of PR and we're in a restaurant serving people, doing this, doing that. No, we wasn't. I wasn't in there because of PR. I was in there because I had to be in there, had to work in there. I had to, like, I was literally working in that restaurant,

you know, cleaning toilets, you name it. I was doing everything, you know. And people thought it was a PR thing and was doing it for PR and it genuinely wasn't. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. And it was scary, man. Like, it was like, we've literally just launched this massive thing. The queue is from here till the end of the road.

Like, I've never seen anything like it. The queue was so long and it's like, all these people are coming to eat here. Oh my God. And, you know, we're going through this. And, you know, it going through this and you know it was it was it was like a bittersweet but mainly bitter because you know it was you know in the restaurant world you're dealing with people's emotions you're not dealing with your forget your emotions you've

got to deal with the staff's emotions you've got to deal with the customer's emotions if your chef is not in a good mood today he's now gonna burn this rice or he's gonna do something maybe out of character or or something um and so i've got to rely on my chef's emotions every single day even if he's going through his own issues or and it's not just one chef there's two three four then you know if you're your main bar person it's not just one chef, there's two, three, four, then if your main bar person, it's a Saturday, busy night, decides I'm not turning up for work because they've had an argument with their partner or whatever it is, what do I do? So this whole business is relying on other people's emotions

and even the customers. The customers come in, they're not in a good mood. They're already come in they're not in a good mood they're already just i'm not in a good mood i want my food and i want it in five minutes and if i get it in seven minutes i'm kicking off but just because they're in that mood so you're constantly dealing with emotions and people's feelings every single day and for you to get that right every single day and everybody's emotions be great and everyone's in a great like well you're still dealing with your own right and we're grieving do you know what i mean and i remember covid happened and then it was a slight

it gets even worse and our restaurant was you know it was about coming in there vibes and experienced music drinks this that and the fourth and that was what it was so it wasn't like takeaways like you know everyone's like yeah just adapt and do takeaways yeah that's fine but our whole business was built on vibes and we did we did events. I mean, like it was really an in-person, that's what we created. But the restaurant done so well, it managed to, you know, survive throughout the COVID stuff. But then we was not going to reopen

because of the stress and what it was doing to us mentally. I didn't care about the money. You know, people are like, you're sitting on a goldmine, if you get this right, you just get it right. And, you know, you can... And I was like,

I hear you. Sounds great. I can't deal with it. Like, it's too much stress. Like, I was in there every day. I was losing weight. I was drained, tired. You know, I remember a guy came in

and stole everything because he pretended to remember a guy came in and stole everything because he pretended to be a friend of ours and the staff that was working there, or the cleaner, believed him and was like, yeah, your friend came in and took all the iPads and all the equipment. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then gone in there, there's nothing. They've taken all the stuff.

It's like, what is going on? Like, this is crazy. I can't deal with this. And it was just like, I'm not, I don't care what potential this has. I'm not doing it. And then my friend, Bouncer, introduced me to some guys and said,

look, these are some really good guys. You know, they've got these successful restaurants. They run it amazingly and this, that and the fourth. And, you know, they're interested in partnering up with you guys to just, you know, make this work because, you know, you've clearly got something here. And these guys came and they said, look, we'll deal with that. We'll take away all the headache. Let's make it work, man.

You know, we see this being big. We feel like we can franchise it. We feel like we can do this, that, and the fourth. And it was like, cool, let's do it. Let's give it another shot. As long as, you know, I don't have to bear that, the brutal reality of, you know, running a restaurant.

Have you ever, have you ever, have you ever like truly taken time to because you use the word grief we were grieving what does that actually look like when you say we were grieving because from what from what i'm guessing it and from my assumption of hearing this story it seems like your version of grieving has always been to just kind of distract yourself that is literally what i do. And I just feel like, and I don't know if I feel like I'm scared to stop and take everything in. So I've always just keep going.

I'm just like, oh, that's happened. I've got to keep going. Because if I stop, and I don't know if that's a recipe for disaster or not. I'm still waiting to find out. I don't know. When's a recipe for disaster or not. I'm still waiting to find out. I don't know. When Nash passed, it was like, I felt like, okay, I've got to make this work now.

I've got to make Creps and Cones work because what? Like, he'd done so much and we spoke about so much and, you know, this can't just die in vain. I feel like through the stress that was one thing that made me just feel like you know i'm just gonna you know i'm just gonna do it i'm just gonna do it it was only being forced by covid to stop everything where i sat down and was like just do i want to start this shit again yeah do i want to do this again do you know i mean but what kept me going was that and yeah how are you feeling though when

because again you know you keep yourself busy you keep yourself distracted but what's going on behind the mask like underneath the hood everyone on the surface you know you're keeping up appearances to keep things the shit moving but how are you actually feeling like when you go home at night and when you do have those moments to yourself in the car like how are you feeling believe it or not i don't really have their moments like i literally will be trying to do something until i'm tired and go to sleep wake up and continue doing it again like i i don't feel like i've sat down and taken in everything that's happened I don't think I've and I swear this scares me because I'm like you're taking in so much you're taking on so much and all I do is just you know keep working I keep doing this I keep doing that but I keep doing that. But then I feel like, you know, I've got a lot of positive,

you know, I don't want to call it distractions because it's my life. So I'm not really being distracted because this is my life and this is what comes of it and this is what I'm doing and this is what I love doing and I'm doing that. But at the same time, I'm dealing with a lot of grief like a lot of it and I haven't sat down and you know taken it all in and said like wow like how am I feeling

because I'm always just trying to distract myself I guess but have you ever seen moments where that grief, all the things you have been dealing with, have caused your behaviour to change in an unpleasant way? That sometimes is one of the indicators that there's something underneath going on. Kind of like what you said about yourself, just when you're dealing with things,

maybe the first thing that might go, I mean, some people start self-medicating with alcohol or whatever it might be. But then other people, you just see changes in their behaviour. They might get a bit more angry. They might be a bit more cold, a bit more distant, a bit... You know what I mean?

Have you ever seen any of those symptoms in yourself because of the grief? Yeah, I think the cold. And I feel like I've dealt with so much, I'm not dealing with this. And I feel like, so when something happens where I feel like I'm not dealing with it, I'll just switch off.

Are you thinking about like relationships? Friendships, whatever it is. Like it's not, you know, whether it's business, whether it's making a decision that you might not have made before I felt like you know I might have been too nice here or been too nice there and just everything's just made me feel like you know I've been through a lot more I'm not going to make you add to my stress or make this add to my stress. So I'm really quick to just dismiss things or, you know, and I feel like I've become a little bit more cold to it

because I'm just like, I'm not going to deal with that. I'm not going to... It's almost like I'm protecting myself from feeling any more hurt or emotion. That's one strategy, isn't it? Just a numb life. Yes. Just like, I'm like, oh, negative vibes'm like oh negative vibes oh this is no no no i'm just like this and i feel like you know anything that i feel is a remotely negative i'm just like i'm out that is probably a good short-term strategy in some situations but over the long term again there's probably probably a cost especially now that you're a father right yeah and one of the

things you're trying to instill into your own child is probably like emotions and understanding your emotions and that it's okay to feel and and even go the other place i you know i think people often say is in their like romantic relationships when you're in because men and women have a different uh way about them emotionally yeah definitely typically right and so um women are typically more in touch with their emotions and men are typically less in touch with their emotions at least that's a broad sort of stereotype so sometimes can make it difficult when a man has like numbed himself to deal with stuff to then be able to emotionally connect with some a woman in the

way that i'm talking about myself as well here yeah that she she she needs in order for you to speak the same language if you know what i mean yeah when your when your music career started taking off and all these crazy things start happening um in your own estimation what was the moment where you go that was everything, really changed when we dropped that. Everything really, really changed. Otis was like a partial change. That was like the first lift off. That was the first lift off, but it was like, okay, what's next then?

Yeah. And then the next big moment that we had was when we released our project called Young Kings. It was like our independent mixtape that we'd done. And we got a Guinness World Record for it, for being the highest independent charting album. 18th or something, wasn't it? Yeah, it's like 18 years, like top 20. And it was like, and that was before streaming. Crazy.

So that was just, you know, based on physical people buying it. And, you know, that was a real like whoa moment for us because just before that like that period after otis and before young kings we was dealing with so much rejection like in terms not even just rejection but you know people saying oh maybe you should put a girl in your group and you can be like n dubs and maybe that might work out for you or have you tried the ant and deck thing like just being comedians or like it was bare of like just loads of people you know just giving us their projections of what they think we should be and it just felt like they wanted to just chew us and spit us out kind of thing and and that's what it felt like and you, you know, we started then trying to make records to please what the radio wanted

or, you know, what we felt would have got on TV. And then we sat down, I remember we sat down with Skepta, big up Skepta again. We sat down with Skepta and we was like, yeah, man, like, like the labels, man, they're not, they're trying to make us do this or they want this kind of sound and i remember skeptic said just sat the skeptic and jam on this was in skeptic's house and he was like forget radio forget tv forget record labels just do you do

whatever it is that you want to do there's independent pluggers that will plug you to radio themselves you don't need a label to get do all of these things just do it yourself put it out yourself like don't watch and then they're gonna come to you and never forget he said that he said they're gonna start coming to you that was like a really important moment for us where we released our project and the music that we made was just like what we wanted to make. And, you know, we made Don't Waste My Time. And when we made Don't Waste My Time, it was like, it was purposely made to be like, yeah, we don't care what anyone has to say.

This is the music we want to make or we're going to say what we want to say on the song. And you lot can't tell us anything. I'll never forget when we put it out, it just went crazy. Like the song started going everywhere, we were performing it. Then, you know, the song ended up on Creed, the movie. And like, you know, out to Bello's entrance song,

like it was a massive moment in Creed. And it was like, we'd done all of this with a song that we knew, like we just thought this is what we want to do Don't Waste My Time yeah that was Don't Waste My Time and we was just like

yeah like and then as Skepta said everyone will run into you now everyone was like oh my god

want to sign record labels left right oh my god like throw a checkbook so yeah we want you

we want you and then it just really was like a, it was like a really 360. And then we started doing radio and, you know, TV and we started, you know, really branching out and people were like, how did you get into that? But the reason why we, how, is because we always over deliver

on little opportunities so we got a radio opportunity to do to with apple to do a show that they've been doing with everyone so not everyone but like a select a few artists everybody gets i think like six episodes um and then they move on to the next artist. We ended up on episode 36 or something, but it was because we was like, we got this opportunity, we know how everybody else has done these shows, and what they're expecting, which is, they're not expecting much from us, but what if we make this a sick show? What if we go out of our way bring other guests on but have games let's do fun let's do fun things let's make this entertaining and actually make this show a good show and that's what we did so our show was nothing like what they expected we went above and beyond

we had everybody coming on our show from americans to swiss to, you know, the Daves to AJ, like everybody's come on our show and we didn't have to do that. We didn't get any extra to do it. We just said, we're gonna, you know, take this opportunity and make the most of it. And from that, you know, they kept offering us more shows and more shows and more shows. And then someone, you know, brought up the TV show, The Rap Game and said, like, who do you think? And because of our radio show and like, they was like, no, these guys would be great for this.

That opportunity came to us and someone recommended us to do The Rap Game. And then we ended up in TV. But that was all because we just put that extra bit of effort in a small opportunity and I feel like a lot of people you know don't even think like that like some people think there's an opportunity here this is what's expected of me this is what I'm gonna do and I just don't I just don't live by that and Conan we don't live by that because I feel like if you over deliver and show what you actually can do in any situation what can come from that is going to be

a lot more and it's always worked it's so true that you can take a when someone presents you with an opportunity they're actually it's almost like they're actually what you see there some people will see an opportunity but what you're actually if you look behind the opportunity is a set of dominoes yes that if you flick the first domino and you succeed in the first opportunity there's this cascading set of opportunities that arise from it but if you don't do a good job on that first domino hitting that first domino hard enough you'll never start the sort of you know the knock-on effect and i see that in everything that i've done even becoming a dragon or you know because it's very easy when you become a dragon just to fall in just to fall in line right just to sit there yeah but for me it was

like here's an opportunity for me to really try and express myself exactly and i noticed that when i watch it i'm just like i'm so glad he's just being him and saying like what he truly feels and not just like a sick to seed, you know what I'm saying? Because it's funny because it wasn't, I'm not saying it was a, maybe it was a little bit conscious, but my thinking is,

look, I can get kicked off the show anytime. I might as well like do it my way and have a bit of fun with it and at least like leave a mark because the dragons in the past that I've like resonated less with are those that didn't show the full side of their personality and acted too much like a dragon and acting like a dragon to me is it is like sitting there and just like i'm out like i like your business that's good i'm going to invest so for me it's like well

in reality my personality is a bit more diverse than that so exactly so people watching that will see like there's more to him than this old dragons thing and then you know other opportunities are and they have it's crazy it's mad and i i swear i live by that i genuinely do i feel like don't see something has for what it is on the surface and face value just there's a lot more that can come from this if you really just put in a bit more effort money money starts coming in for you in your life people don't teach us anything about money i mean you did go to university for accounting so i thought maybe you had a bit of an advantage there but i don't don't even know if that's true i just i just saw it in your uh in your cv and thought oh maybe that helped him but money coming in nobody teaches us what to do

with it especially in i think I've got to say I think in the in the like hip-hop community there's a lot of narrative around like go and get the go and get that car or go get buy this watch or go buy this shiny thing and I also think that sets us back as well that's something that's I've always in more recent times when I've started to understand money and how it works and I've met billionaires and I've met people that literally their careers are just playing money games where they understand how to get this money and how it works and i've met billionaires and i've met people that literally their careers are just playing money games where they understand how to get this money and double it and they have and they also have access so they get the deals first if airbnb is going to go into the stock market they'll get a 50 discount it goes public the next day they sell the next day and they make

double their money so it's access but it's information yeah and i just feel like you know we a lot of people have been deprived of that information so when you start getting money in your life what's your relationship i agree a hundred percent because there's things that i just found out about that i just didn't know existed and it's like why don't we know this? You know, but like, I feel like it starts from school. I feel like there should be a class in school that teaches you on this. Like just things like credit. There was something at uni,

there's like you get some 750 pound overdraft thing or whatever. And then I was like, I was 750 pounds. Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, like, oh, great. And then they're chasing, what are they going to do? They're not going to do anything. I'm not going to jail. And then,

but like, it was just not knowing that this stuff actually affects you for years to come. And it's like, you don't know, just even paying fines or whatever it is. Like, there's things that, you know,

this, if you don't do this or you don't pay this or it's going to affect you in the long run. Yeah. And I just never knew and I'm someone that would, if I knew, I heard it once,

that's it. I'm never going to. I never knew. My first car was a Range Rover Sport and it wasn't, they wouldn't let me put it in my name. So I, I,

my business partner had, because he had credit, he put it in his name and then, so I was driving around in this Range Rover Sport living in a seven bedroom house with a tennis court.

And my credit, I can't understand, they wouldn't lend me 200 quid because I destroyed it when I went to uni. I dropped out of uni straight away, but I'd gone and I'd got these overdrafts.

I just blown up. Just the overdrafts. It's like they set you up for it. Like, I swear to you, it's like, because I know so much people that's gone down

that same university path of, they offer you this big, shiny 750 pounds that you don't have to pay back. You do have to pay it back. You have to pay it back. But like the way they coat it is in like, you know, it's a trap that we fall into because we don't know the consequence of, if we don't do this, then this happens.

And I just feel like it stems from us. I feel like this being something that we should learn in school. Like, you know, before we start taking credit out and start doing things that affect our credit, we should be learning about it. But there's nothing that, you know, really teaches you that in school. And, you know, all my peers or my friends and none of us knew nothing about credit. And I just think, why is it like so hidden?

Or why is it not really projected? Is it a parent's role to knew nothing about credit. And I just think, why is it like so hidden? Or why is it not really projected? Is it a parent's role to tell them about credit? And, you know, I feel like now it is because it's probably become a lot more of a thing nowadays. But yeah, and just things like, you know, when you end up in this world of business and, you know, there's things that you find out about, you know, like EIS, SEIS,

and stuff like that. And I just couldn't believe this stuff existed. And it was like, yeah, when you, you know, if you, you know, I've got someone, Jason, who invested in Creps and Cone and stuff like that and, you know, had no idea about EIS and SEIS and that he could get, you know, a percentage of his investment back. And, you know, from tax that he's reprieved. And this is like, what?

Why don't we know about this? Like, why is this, you know, there's so much like even research and development, you know, you being able to claim money back from that. And it's like, a lot of people have probably watching this have no idea what I'm talking about and it's just like why why don't why why is this stuff not normalized or people knowing about this stuff because there's so much ways to do things you know and there's so much different methods of supporting you know you doing startups or investing or there's so much things to you know

relieve the intense you know amount of money you might end up spending to make that a little bit better or you're not having to spend as much or you being able to claim this back as it's crazy and i just feel like it's proper hidden and as you as you you know you get further and further into a different world you you find out about a lot of things that you didn't know about before when you first started getting money what were you spending it on um when i first first got my thing the first thing i probably bought was a car like are you good with money yeah back then back then? Back then, I wasn't bad with money. Like, I wasn't bad with money. I always thought, I want to, you know,

there's nice things that I really, really want to get. Like, I wanted a nice car and this, that and the fourth. But I wasn't really, like, over crazy, going crazy with money. I haven't been like that. I feel like I've always been, you know, managing money putting money aside budgeting money i feel like i'm really really good at that what advice would you give to people then that are young especially young people that are you know about to embark on their own career and that might if they're lucky come into money what

advice would you give them um you know try not to upgrade your actual lifestyle as much as you feel like you should straight away because the thing about money is this it's not even the short term of it it's the long term of living costs and that lifestyle that maintaining that is expensive because you know you might think yeah i've got x amount of money i'll go buy this i've still got that it's not because over time you've got to keep spending that money these bills are going to keep rolling in you've got to keep paying for this car you've got to keep paying for this house you've got to keep paying for all these bills you've got to keep you want to go out and have fun on holiday you want to keep this is you know so my thing is

is if you do get more more, try to keep the same lifestyle as much as close as to what you was already living. You know, because it's the silent direct debits and the silent nonstop bills and the silent favours here and there and the silent holiday. That is the silent killer of what happens to people, the lifestyle.

Do you think that like hip hop culture is guilty of encouraging what happens to people the lifestyle do you think that like hip hip hop culture is guilty of of encouraging people though to upgrade it is i mean because i think most of my when i think about why i was buying bottles of don perry on in nightclubs the minute i got money it's definitely because of music videos you know i mean no there there there is um but then and because i was insecure so it's a combination of the both It was like You're insecure Because you were broke

And you were the only black kid In an all white school And you always wanted to be Have validation Look at 50 Cent over here With these bottles He looks like he's Validated

So Yeah No I feel like it is And the clubs know What they're doing as well Like I don't know if you ever noticed

But in the club, they always make it look like people's ordering more bottles than they actually are getting. Yeah, they bring out the fake bottles and they put them back in the back of the room. Yeah, but to a person that's just in there, they're like, ooh, it looks like he's just done,

I need to, it needs to, One day. Yeah, and then it's just like, it's just this culture of them just taking your money. The thing is, you know, they put gambling shops do best in areas where people don't have money because people are in those areas that's why if you go into a more sort of deprived

area you'll see multiple gambling shops because they they know that people in those areas to their money means so much more and it's a real get out so they're much more susceptible i believe to gambling addictions and to being reckless with their money. Because if I can bet 50 quid and get 500, that changes my life. Whereas if you, you're not going to see gambling shops in rich areas because they're not, they A, might have the information to understand the actual odds,

but B, they don't, a big bet isn't going to change their life in the same fundamental way. They don't have the same money insecurities. And I think this is part of the problem within the like hip hop culture, which is a lot of people are starting out without it. So they have those insecurities about money and money is probably the reason

for a lot of pain in their home. It's probably the reason they saw their mom and dad arguing. They saw a lot of pain around money in their home. And so they always felt that it could fill that void. And then when they get a little bit of it, they're so much more intent and compelled to signal to everybody else that they got it yeah by making reckless money decisions and that's this kind of perpetual cycle because then people are looking up at them and going okay when i get it i'ma buy the bottles of don perry on and i'm gonna yeah and and and it's like it's one of those ones where it's like you can't even really help because, you know, we can make, you know, all of these decisions and show them like, look, you can do these and, you know, invest your money and do this, do that and forth. has just got this big fat check from a record label you're going to tell me not to go and buy

a watch or not to buy a chain and match everybody else that's looking you know that you know everybody all the girls love and this that or whatever it is that the reason their reason for feeling they need these things or these items like how do you tell them no don't do that do this well i think it's i think part of it is people like you who've been through that, who they can, who they trust. Cause if someone else says that they ain't going to listen, if their mum or dad says it,

who ain't been through that process, who ain't made the mistakes. I can't tell you the amount of times I've spoken to like young artists and said, don't go and just splash your money or don't, you don't need to go and buy these things or buy that, or you don't need to do it. these things or buy that or you don't need to do it and they're like yeah but i i need the chain at least like even maybe if it's just a chain or i need something to look like a rapper that's what i'm saying so it's like self-fulfillance

a cycle yeah they're going well if i don't get the chain then i'm not that rapper who i want to be someday so if that rapper that they wanted to be someday was talking about investing and starting companies and and all that stuff. They might be saying, I need to invest this money in the stock market, or I need to buy a property because skeptics just bought, you know what I'm saying? But the issue is, is,

you know, they, they, they need to understand that that is a longer game and it's more about the future. But as a rapper that might blow up now they're gonna get these bookings and be on these television programs and be in these clubs and be in these parties with the artists that are shining that have the good watch on that has this they're gonna be around

that so that's immediate you know so telling someone you know forget their media think about the long term but they're in the media every single day and witnessing their immediate now how do you tell them to ignore that it's hard so even when i you know i sit down and have don't get me wrong like there's there are a lot of people that do listen and you know do you want to do other things and you know that have come and asked me for advice and asked me to intro to introduce them to this person or that person and i'll always do that but there's definitely been a lot that's like no but i definitely need the chain i need i need to at least have you know a bust down rolex i need it like i need a bust down like everybody's been saying you know you watch all the you know big artists in the world they've all got crazy chains saying, you know, you watch all the, you know, big artists in the world. They've all got crazy chains on.

Like, you know, you look at Hove, Jay-Z, he's one of our biggest, you know, the people that we look up to as a musician and a businessman. He's got on a sick watch every time I see a new picture of him. Or he's got, you know what I'm saying? He's got a big chain. Like he's still, there's still that element. I feel like for artists, the compromise is both. Like go and do that stuff, but you still need to do that stuff.

Don't just do everything and buy, you know, spend your money and splash your money on cars and jewelry and this. Don't do that. Maybe, you know, if you want to do, get your little starter pack and, you know, be on your way, cool. But don't, you know, go and spend all of your money or a big chunk of your money on that. Like, you know, on your way cool but don't you know go and spend all of your

money or a big chunk of your money on that like you know if you want to do that do it in you know either stages or do it in you know you don't have to do it all at once i guess i understand that the point as well that like this is branding at the end of the day it is like it is like but behind jay-z you do have one hell of a portfolio. Same with Diddy. Like you have an unbelievable property portfolio, art collection. He's made crazy bets, but you're right.

He, especially in them early days before. Yeah, he did. It's branding, isn't it? And you know, it's hard because I feel like for,

for a lot of new young artists, knowing everything they ever wanted was to be like that rapper they're watching and become, to then turn around and be like, no, don't do that. I completely agree. I just, I feel like they have to go through it.

What they wanted though was to be validated and they wanted to fit in and they wanted to be accepted. Because when you go through it, yeah, you're right. It's like, oh, you're... Yeah, but is there not... That's what I'm saying.

This is so systemic that it's not as easy as it sounds like I'm making out like it's a really deep systemic system which is held in place like and I've I've realised that

when I've tried to have conversations and tried to be like yeah no this is what you need to do and if you want me to introduce you to this you should put your money into this and they're just like

yeah yeah okay alright and then they go and buy the next, you know what I'm saying? Chain or pendant or whatever it is.

What you're doing now is the best, the best possible thing. And that, exactly. And like, it's a lot deeper than just, you know, a brand.

It's more the fact that what kind of brand, what you are and showing them that, okay, I can actually do anything then. Or, you know, the sky's the limit. And them actually seeing that this is just as big, if not bigger, than music. Because it's an example that they're following. They're following the example of the rapper that they admire that came before them.

So words are fucking great or whatever. Like they're not as powerful as an example. Exactly. That's what role models are. So it's just actually going and doing the thing and them seeing it. And they'll be seeing all this stuff you've been doing when not everyone will be seeing it.

And they'll be thinking, hmm, okay. Yeah, and it will spark a lot of yeah people to think you know what let me do that idea that i had in my head a year ago yeah like why not because you know at me being a rapper to launch you'll never put a rapper launching a baby skincare line in the same sentence like it's just it doesn't make sense even though it makes so much sense for my life because i have a child and a daughter and it makes sense but just the fact that i've turned that into something and then them actually seeing that okay what it is is actually a good thing like it's not you know there's i feel like there's one thing putting your name to a

brand or saying this is my brand go and buy it and then actually another thing actually bringing something out that in that market there's a crazy demand for and they're actually loving it for anyone that doesn't have the context um you've launched nala's baby, which is a child skincare? Yeah, skin and hair care range. Named after your daughter? Daughter, Nala. Nala. Yes. And this is actually how we first met,

because I was filming Dragon's Den in Manchester. We were both in this restaurant called Tattoo. It's one of my friend's restaurants. Great restaurant. Go check it out. One of my favourite restaurants, actually, in the country. Yeah, it's banging. It's banging.

And you came over and said, you know, you introduced yourself, because I think we'd been DMs. We had on socials. Yeah, yeah. But we obviously never we obviously never met face to face and that's one of the first things you told me about you said i'm launching this brand in in a week or two or whatever it was and you after that you sent me the deck of it and uh i couldn't believe it i was sat there with peter jones and deborah mean and all the dragons i was like man this guy's fucking launching this sick brand and it's going into 400 bootst. Because I've just been in the den all day listening to entrepreneurs trying to figure out

how to get into like, I don't know. They're like having these, one of them's having a meeting with boots and they're just getting like blackboard or they're getting like sidelined or whatever. And for you to come up to me and be like, oh, we're in 400 boot stores. I'm like, that's the investment I was looking for all day.

Do you know what I mean? I've been looking at hand sanitizers. And you got all the shit set up before you even dropped it you had seven figures of investment you had this cap table these investors that are celebrities and that are you know big names and that are legit people and you said yeah i'm about to drop this brand in in a week or two um and 400 bootstores i couldn't quite believe it i was like that's mad and why doesn't why isn't people why you know why isn't everybody talking about this and then a week or so later,

everyone was talking about it. Yeah, because I hadn't announced it then. It was still, I was basically like a week or two away from actually announcing it. Right. And yeah, so it was like, it was one of those ones

where it was like, even explaining it to you, I was like, you're probably thinking, how come I've never heard of it or what? But because we hadn't announced it at that point, but the amount of preparation that went into even just the announcing to the launch.

How long did that whole project, two years? Two years, like two years before Nala was born. Basically how it started was Sasha, who's Nala's mum, was pregnant with Nala and she became really like I want everything natural

we're having a baby I want the best for her as mothers do do you know what I mean and she got introduced to an app it's like a product rating ingredient app called Think Dirty so it rates products from zero to 10. So 10 being the absolute worst and zero being the cleanest.

So we're getting, you know, baby shower gifts and loads of people are giving us gifts and loads of them are products and, you know, skincare, haircare products. So we're putting all of these products in the app and all of these products, you know, they're claiming it, this, that, and the fourth. And a lot of the products are coming up as eights and fives and like looking for the zero.

Like, is there any zero zeros here? Like, because it literally rates each individual ingredient. Oh, so zero is a good score zero is the best score so that means it has zero bad ingredients in there and like it highlights each ingredient of what number it gives each each ingredient and how harmful and you can click and it gives you the details it's really detailed and you know thorough so i was like there's no zero rated like baby range in any of these, any of the brands that we're getting.

Cause all the brands was like, they're available in all the high street retailers and stuff. So I'm just like, nah, this can't be right. And she was like, I don't want to use anything on her and she's born because why is there no? And then we did see like a few random zeros here and there, but, you know, they're either really expensive, you know, talking like £20 a bottle, £25 a bottle,

or whatever it is, or they're from another country. They're not even sold here. So, you know, when she kind of brought this to my attention, it was like me having my business hat on. It was just like, why don't we make it? Why don't we make that? And then we thought, is there a reason why there isn't?

Maybe there's a reason. Maybe it's not feasible. Or what's the reason? Why isn't there? Why doesn't this exist? And then it was like, all right cool where do we even start and then I reached out to someone um I don't I'm not sure she wants me to say her name on that because she's really like private but she's a G and I bought the idea to her and she was like,

this is a sick idea. And funny enough, I met an amazing manufacturer like a week ago. So I will present this to them and see if it's something that they would want to do. But let's mock up the branding and let's get the branding right so that when we when we bring it to them they can kind of vision it so you know we're working back and forth in with the branding and we're like yes this is it this this looks

exactly how we want it to look and um she took it to the manufacturers and the manufacturers was like let's do it like this sounds like an amazing, you know, idea. You've clearly done research and you clearly have a USP and, you know, know exactly what you lot want for this product. So this sounds like a journey that we would love to embark on. So, you know, getting the tip from the manufacturer was important for us, you know, because there's loads of, and, you know, she was one of the people as well. Getting stamp saying yeah i think like this would be great

and um so we've started developing the formula and you know they were like okay so what do you want i was like look i want a brand a skincare range not just a you know one skew but like the whole range it needs to for one be a zero rating on this app all the ingredients need to be a zero okay we'll get to that i said i want it to be 100 natural as the most natural you can get it and then they came back and was like you know 100% isn't what we would advise for kids because you know microbes and fungus growing on products you need shelf life so you know you need to have a preservative in there and and there's different types of preservatives there's natural alternatives um and it was like okay cool we just want it to be

the most natural you can possibly get. We want it to be as naturally derived as possible. And we wasn't going to settle. And there was that. And then there was the checklist of the parent checklist of, you know, vegan, cruelty free, you know, tear free. So if it goes in our eyes, it doesn't burn. Alcohol free. All of these sensitive skin.

Eczema. And then, you know, because we took so long formulating it, Nala was born and she had eczema. So that was like, you know, it needs to be suitable for eczema. It needs to not irritate eczema. It needs to, you know, be suitable for sensitive skin. We need all of these checklists. And then they was like, okay, that's great.

And then we was like, but we want it to be about five pounds five and fifty and that's where it was like okay this is gonna be really kind of difficult to do because it's like if you want such a great product it's gonna cost a lot and then it made me realize why there's this doesn't exist maybe maybe i still don't know but why doesn't this exist and it was like we've got to really take a hit on the margins but if we believe that we can make a great product and sell loads of units then you know it's about the mass amount of sales rather than the niche market that can afford an expensive product and and do you you started this business with your ex-partner yes at the time when you

started this business were you still together yes we was so you actually you you separated in the time of formulating the business yeah we did a lot of people i mean obviously for a lot of people that would have been it yeah you lot broken up but you know i feel like one thing we've definitely prioritized is putting our daughter first and you know we feel like this is something that if we get it right it can be something we can pass down to our daughter or you know her to be proud of you know because we you know when she's older we might not even be in a company store i don't know what could anything can happen we might not even be here do you know what the company's valued at our one1, yeah. At the moment, 17 and a half.

17 and a half million. Yeah. Based on the orders that, obviously the mount stores are in the orders and that wasn't even including like D to C. It was just based on, you know, our orders from boot and the rate of sale that was expected to hit

which we've absolutely smashed since launching but yeah and the investment as well so

I mean I've been seeing online it's been selling out like crazy and well it's like my team has put in an order

like hundreds of thousands of bottles yeah hundreds of thousands of bottles, yeah? Hundreds of thousands of bottles. Me being me, like, guys, this is a lot of bottles. Like, this is a lot of bottles. Like, are we sure we need to buy this many bottles? And my team, they're like, look, trust me.

We know what we're doing. And then we're a week and a half in and I ran out of bottles. And we've already put in the order for the next cycle of production already. And that was meant to last us three months. And we've done all of our bottles in a week and a half, I'd say. We're now nearly two weeks.

People literally can't find it going to the stores. It's sold out, sold out. I saw people selling it on eBay and stuff. It was crazy. Like people, literally people are still trying to get hold of it. They're going into, I get messages every day. People talking, I can't, it's not available, it's not available, it's not available.

And we've just literally had to, you know, sold out on our website our stock gone like everything was just selling out everywhere it was like it became like gold dust people was like oh my god i finally i managed to get one bottle it was only a conditioner but you know when you restock it it is crazy and we just did not see this we knew it was gonna it was like we i knew it was gonna do like well in terms of like i thought people will resonate this because it's actually a really amazing product but it's actually exceeded everyone's expectations and you know now boots is like yo we need a lot more stock and it's like

how have we got to place another order already of making more stock to be available? And it's just like, at this rate, like this rate of sale, like what we valued our thing before, it's like we definitely undervalued ourself here based on what's happening here. And, you know, now we've got to think, oh my God, we've actually got to think

about the next phase of investment now because, you know, we're going to think oh my god we've actually got to think about the next phase of investment now because you know we're going to be looking to to expand we're going to be looking to expand i'm going to make you an offer i'm going to offer you all of the money for 98 oh my god that's so funny so yeah man like we're literally just in awe of like everything that's happened and you know everybody coming in and and trying to make it work and you know boots cooperating and you know really being like really like you know supportive of everything that's going on and what have you learned what i've learned is as it relates to like you know people

listening to this that might have their own ideas or they might be thinking about setting up their own business what what have you what have you learned from this you know this process over the last two years of building this brand that you that you didn't know before what I've learned I feel like this is the first time that I've been able to fully prepare for something in terms of you don't need to rush the process because initially when, you know, we was doing this brand, I was so excited about the brand and wanted it out. And it was like, I could have, you know, done this brand a lot quicker. Cut corners.

Could have. I could have, you know, when they sent us the first batch of samples, been like not gone back and said no i don't like this i want to change this what's the percentage i want i want more i want it more natural i want it more this i want and now now we need to you know do this test and that test and this and it was like i didn't have to do all of that i could have literally just you know got the brand after the first batch of samples, which is in the first couple of months or whatever, and been like, yeah, let's just get it online. I didn't need to, you know, take my time. We took our time.

Like anytime there was a obstacle and it would cause us to push back and it was like, do you want to push back or do you want to just go ahead? No, just push it back. Let's just keep pushing it back because us to push back. And it was like, do you want to push back or do you want to just go ahead? No, just push it back. Let's just keep pushing it back because we need everything perfect. We don't want to rush this process. You know, if something needs to be changed and it was like, I think we got something back

and it was at like 95% or something natural. I was like, no, if it's going to take us another month, two months to get it to 99, I'm just going to wait. what have you learned about um the importance of one of the first lessons i learned in business was because i'd also made the mistake previously and then when i got it right i realized how important it was is the like what have you learned about the importance of the people around you especially you're going into an area that you've not been in before retail even like the baby market it's a brand new area and so you've got to have surely you've got to have people that know know that world yeah

like these are unknown unknowns to you like you going into that it's the same with me in most new areas that i've been in in terms of industries i don't even know what i don't know of course and you know what one thing i've i've i've done with this is I let the experts be experts in in certain aspects and the issue is that how do you know they're experts because you don't even know if they're good you don't but all you can do is based on you know prior work your relationship with them and them knowing what they're talking about um and you know you can only gauge it to as much as your brain can gauge something to and you've got to kind of put trust in it whether you might have to replace this or place that person or this or get someone else to do that it might it happens in business all the

time but you know i feel like i've been a good judge of character so far because everybody that's been in my team from the start is still here now isn't it funny how good people hire good people 100 and bad people hire bad people 100 it's probably the single biggest thing i think i could impress upon anyone from this conversation as well because i know you had you said you've had that experience with creptin cones it's just like there'll be young people thinking about starting a business and those first decisions about who they do it with will be the single biggest predictor of their success or failure as far as from my experience like those first few people if you pick a if you pick a if you take your time and really be ambitious with the talent you align yourself with you say do you know why can't i work with the best person in the world and this

not not just dave who ain't got a job and he's got time on his hands who i've who i know went to school with like why can't i find the best person in the world and inspire them to come with me on this and to fill my blind spots. People don't do that. 100%. And also the other reason we don't do that and why I didn't do that when I started my business is because I don't think I can manage the best person in the world. Someone even double my age.

I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. So how am I going to tell them what to, you know what I mean? And that's an insecurity. That means we just go for Dave. 100%. I can't remember who said it. They were saying something like,

if you're in a room or around people where, you know, you feel like you shouldn't be there. I can't remember where I was watching someone say that. And it was like, you should always feel like you shouldn't be here. Like the dumbest person in the room? Yeah. Like, you know, if you feel like you shouldn't be,

yeah, then you shouldn't be in. And you should always feel uncomfortable. Like, as in like, almost like you shouldn't be here Yeah. Then you shouldn't, you shouldn't be in. And you should always feel uncomfortable. Like, as in like, almost like you shouldn't be here. Yeah. Like, and those are the rooms that you should be in,

or those are the people that you need to be trying to, you know, bring on the journey with you. And that's the growth room. Yeah. And that's the growth room. And you can't be afraid of that. You got to be able to go in there and say like,

look, this is who I am. This is what I know. And this is what I'm doing. And do you want to embark on this journey with me and not feel a way to do that because i feel like a lot of people might be shy to go and approach this person or you know say like even even me coming to you you've seen 100 million people talking about business to show you the business i'm doing. Yeah. And, you know, being able to just feel confident enough to do that. Because some people would have thought, nah, because you're the first person that will pick apart something.

You know what I'm saying? No, like, okay, so this doesn't make sense. So I was just like, you know, but I've learned to just be that person and not be afraid to, you know, go and approach someone who might be 10 times more expressed in this field than me and i don't feel scared to do that because that's the only way i'm going to grow i want to talk to you about music as well before we finish um one of the things that i i almost couldn't believe because it just feels like the most unfortunate timing ever is that you're attacked backstage yeah I was yeah I was backstage and then like loads of people just come backstage and then they they they was asking about someone who had no idea

what they was talking about I was it was just a mad confusing hole. And then someone grabbed my chain, my cadet, my cousin. And then I just remember seeing knives like... Like, literally, like, my jacket was, like, it was crazy. Like, I just... All I remember is seeing I had to fight my way through it to get through the door, to close the door. But, yeah, and then I looked down and my jacket was just full of rips

and then I looked at my leg and it was soaking, my hand was bleeding, like, it was crazy. And I remember the ambulance was like, if this was a millimetre deeper, you would have got your artery in your leg and it would have been a different scenario. And it was a of guys i don't even know who they are never met them never had issue with them like don't it was crazy in in birmingham because they just rushed backstage but yeah it's crazy and that um yeah no that wasn't really in like it wasn't in that right it was yeah it was

just a completely different um thing but it was like Nash and Cadet passing within the same year that was the real like not on the same year but within a year so Nash passed in the summer of 2018. Then Cadet passed four days after my birthday. Five days after my birthday. Cadet passed in February. So who's, for people that don't know who is, I mean, Cadet in and of itself is very well known, very well loved, but who is Cadet to you? Cadet is my cousin my first cousin um

my dad and his dad are brothers and he was a musician as well and he passed just you know he was just having his break record and his record was was growing and like he was really in his, you know, that moment where you're about to just, and he was there and he passed away in a car accident on the way to a show, which was just like, it was crazy because just like a few weeks prior, my uncle, Cadet's father, just told us he'd been diagnosed with a brain tumour. And that he, I remember him just saying, and I don't know what I'm going to do.

And that was the last, you know, so we began mentally preparing for my uncle. And they're saying, the doctors are saying that, you know, so we began mentally preparing for my uncle. And they're saying, the doctors are saying that, you know, I've got a couple months at max. And we was trying to get through that. And then two weeks later, cadet passes in a car accident on the way to a show. And he was in a full car and he was the only one that passed away.

Which was like, it was crazy and it just makes me feel like, you know, if something's destined for you, then it's destined for you because there were so many variables that could have changed that situation in terms of, you know, he was coming around a corner, a blind corner, and the guy that was driving was drunk, driving a van,

and they crashed on a corner on a country road. So if Cadet was 10 seconds later or 10 seconds earlier, that wouldn't have happened. And there was, like, variables of he missed the cab before so there was many getting an earlier cab but he missed that then they had to call another one and then get in in that in that cab and then the other variable was they wasn't even going to get a cab there there was many actually just drive to the show but the person that was meant to drive

them couldn't end up making it so then they've had to go there and then you know get a cab and there was so much different very and it just was like 10 seconds five seconds even so it was a drunk driver that drunk driver yeah he was drunk and he and he drove head-on into the taxi and the car was full and he was behind the taxi driver and it the impact on his head is what killed him he was he was more than just a cousin to you though wasn't he yeah like he was like my whole life like we grew together like as in like my mum was at his birth his mum was at my birth like from day dot we've been like this you know and like we grew together we done everything together shared so much first memories together and then we had like a little moment or period where our relationship became rocky because I started being successful in music.

And he wanted to do music as well. Because it was the same argument with him. It was like, you need to go a bit more harder with this music. You need to do this, you need to do that. And so we invited him to Wireless. We was performing at Wireless Festival. And he was like, just come. Get inspired.

We're about to perform. It's going to be sick. And he came. And I remember he was like, I'm so charged. I'm so charged. And then he got in the studio. He was sending me loads of music like it was a whole different energy and then you know you could feel that energy you know

being resonated with you know fans and audience and then he started really building this you know following and he's you know he was really great at storytelling like he was an amazing storyteller and people loved that about him and he you know it just started all happening for him and then before he died i remember he done a um he put like a clip of him doing a song with another artist called dino like they put a clip up and then i remember kona was saying to him like turn this into a song make this a song this is make this an actual record that song now has gone you know to be platinum selling and it was independent and you know we was having those conversations about money he was like we because we was like look

this song's picking up you're about to see really good money and And he was like, yeah, but it's not here now. And I'm saying, yeah, because it takes a while to get processed and for you to receive it. And he was like, shall I sign the record? Shall I sign it to a label? Because the label offered me, you know, 100 grand, 150 grand right now for it. I'm saying, no, this song is already doing what it's doing

without any label. Just do it independently and just let it build. And you'll make so much more than what they're offering. And he was like, all right, cool. That's what I'm going to do. And then songs kept getting bigger and bigger. You know, it's silver. 200,000 copies, 300,000 copies.

It was just growing. And then, you know, he was finally having that moment where he was about to, you know, break through. And then he had the accident. And then it was just like, everything just came crashing down. And that was like within the same, like within a year of Nash passing away.

And Nash was like my best friend. And then Blaine passing away. Cadet's name's Blaine. Passing away, away you know within months after that and I've just lost these two pillars in my life within a year whilst being told my uncle's gonna die do you remember where you were when you found out yeah I was in Dubai. My partner at the time, Sasha, took me to Dubai for my birthday. And we was, I was packing

and walking in the lobby to go to the airport back, to come back. So I was on the way back to London and then my friend CJ was calling me but the time that it was it was at like it was like 2 a.m or 1 2 a.m in London and I think it was like 6 6 a.m where I was it was like four hours difference or something. But I just remember looking at the phone, you know, and thinking, because CJ doesn't call me, but he's really close with Cadet.

So he doesn't call me like, as in like he wouldn't, he was not one to call me at that time of night for anything. So I'm looking at my phone and I don't know how my brain processed that there was an issue in such a short time. And he called me. I was like, the time in the UK is 2am. CJ never calls me. Why is he calling me? Something's gone wrong.

Him and Blaine are like this. Something's gone wrong with Blaine. And I answered the phone. I'd just done all of that straight away. I was just like, this doesn't make sense. And I answered the phone and he's literally crying on the phone. done all of that like straight away I was just like this doesn't make sense and I'm answering the phone and he's literally crying on the phone and I knew straight away like I knew I didn't know what how like sorry I didn't know how or I just knew that something was wrong and it was to do

with blame because he's calling me and he's just crying on the phone, crying on the phone and I'm just like, what, what, what, what, what? And then he said, he's gone. And he didn't need to say Blaine Cadet. He didn't need to say that because I knew exactly who he was talking about. And then he said, but he wasn't talking properly. He was like, car crash.

Like, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone. Like, and then I just remember, like, I ran out of breath. I was, I had to lean on something. Like, my breath was going, like, I felt like I was literally going to drop down and faint in the middle of the hotel. And I was just, like, I didn't even know what to feel, like, I'm about to get on a plane, I've just found out my cousin's passed away, and I'm, you know,

stuck in an aeroplane, like, this whole time I'm just going through customs, and doing this, and doing this, but I've just found out my cousin's died, and I'm just like, get me back now. Like it was one of the worst, if not the worst feeling ever. Like losing him was like, it was horrible. Like it was horrible. And, you know, he was such an important person in my life. Like I would speak to him about everything like every idea every song i play it to him like every just everything like he was like everything to me do you know i mean and to lose him it was just it was hard was horrible. And just something we're still dealing with,

still dealing with it till today. Still, I still, I haven't even taken my foot off the gas since to sit down and actually take in that he's not here. Up until today, haven't. Do you remember the last thing that you, that Blaine said to you? Yes. The last thing he said to me was,

just know that I love you for real, for real. And I've got your Gucci socks for your birthday. That was the last thing he said to me. And I was congratulating him on getting his first apartment because he just got his apartment and he was like yo I'm really feeling like starting to feel like a ruff now like I'm starting to feel like um and yeah and he was like I've got these Gucci socks here for you and you when you're back when I'm meaning I was in Dubai and that was the last time we spoke.

I can see you're still processing it. I am. What's on your mind? I just feel like you should be here, man. And witnessing everything. And, like, I just feel like it was too soon. Like, he was on the brink of doing something great. And it was just like it just got taken away from him. And, yeah, it just felt too soon.

Like, you know when someone has so much to offer? Like, he has so much to offer the world. He was, like, his presence was so infectious. Like, he's that person that will come somewhere and you just, you will remember him. Because, like, he's

such a troll comedian. Makes you laugh so positive. Hasn't got a bad bone in his body. Like, he's the person, he was the person that would tell you, all the friends, I love you, bro. And everyone's like, oh, bro, stop saying that. He would say, yeah, I love you.

And he would say it, look you dead in your eyes and say, yeah, I love you. And he didn't feel a way to say that. And he, you know, he was always so expressive and he made us feel comfortable to be like, no, I love you, man. I love you too. I love you too. My brother, I love you. And he was that guy.

And he had the most infectious laugh. He was so honest with when you're trying to make a decision, he'll give you the most honest opinion. If you think something's not good or something's a terrible idea, like, he was that person, man. And he was a big part of me. So that's why I feel like I haven't and don't want to sit down and process it. And it's not easy. You know, we buried, not buried, but my uncle got cremated, but his funeral was yesterday. So he passed away a few weeks ago.

They gave him a few months. He lived an extra few years. So he was a fighter. But I've lost both of them and like they're both important role models

in my life like my uncle was he was the guy do you know what I mean like he was the responsible the guy

like my dad is more the, you know, I can go and do something with my dad that we shouldn't be doing. Like, he's that guy, do you know what I'm saying? And me and my dad are really close now, do you know what I mean? But my uncle was always that, if I need advice or this is what I'm going through or what shall I do here? And, you know, even talking to him about nihilism,

him saying like, you know, you should do this right, get investment. In those moments when you realise that life can be unfair and precious in equal measure, people often speak about things, words that went unsaid, things they wish they could say in hindsight. Something that I think a lot about with my parents as well. I try and reflect on the fact that they're not going to be here forever and that there's certain things i wish i i should probably be saying to them now that at some point when i realize which we life teaches us in the most unfortunate ways that life is finite it's not

guaranteed and it is precious that um we realize when it's too late and people as they say get the roses um after they can smell them definitely is there anything that you when you reflect on words you you you wish you could have said to him or you wish you could say now that that um that comes to mind is there anything where you go do you know i wish in hindsight now i know how precious life is i wish that this had been different or... No, but he did teach me a very valuable lesson because otherwise I would have had that regret and that would have been eating me up until today, was us sorting out our little issues that we had

and becoming close again and not letting that drag out because if we didn't yeah i would have lived in regret for the rest of my life the fact that i didn't you know we didn't hug hug hug hug through it and turn our page and and get on with what we are as cousins blood and family and you know we've been in each other's lives forever. We trust, love each other. Like if I didn't rectify that situation, we didn't rectify that situation, how would I have felt? So it's definitely taught me from there.

When I have issues with people that are close to me or arguments with family members, let's forget that. Sort it out now. We've got to sort it out now. Let's argue, let's scream at each other now, but let. Sort it out now. We've got to sort it out now. Let's argue, let's scream at each other now, but let's do it now. And let's hug afterwards.

That's what it's taught me. I don't want to, you know, live in regret and think, oh, like the last conversation we had was, we was arguing, wasn't even talking.

Our words were harsh or, you know, because that can happen. And also other little moments of spending time, you know. I feel like, especially even after yesterday and just seeing my family that was at Blaine's funeral, at my uncle's funeral, and thinking that if this was me, these are the same people that are going to be there for me.

This is who I need to be focusing my time and energy on. Because these are the people that care the most. Not saying no one don't care. But as in, these are the people that are going to be here if this happens to me. These are the people that are lifting my uncle's casket, that are going to go and lift my casket this is where i need to to really focus and spend my time because everything else is great it's it's lovely but you know anything can happen to me and that means nothing and then it means everything to my family. Do you think you need to confront some of those things

that you've kept yourself distracted from confronting? The grief, the loss? Yeah, I do. And how do you think you'd go about doing that? Because I've heard you speak about and encourage other people to go to therapy before and have those conversations. But from what I was able to ascertain,

that's not something you've done yourself. I haven't done therapy. I'm not... I just felt like, you know, if someone feels like they want to go therapy, don't feel weird by going to therapy. I don't know why that even seems as weird at a stage, or not even weird, sorry.

You used to be stigmatised. Yeah, just like, if you go to therapy, yeah, like, whatever it was. But it's not, it's just, it's normal. or not even weird, sorry. You used to be stigmatized. Yeah, just like if you got therapy or something. Yeah, like whatever it was, but it's not, it's just, it's normal. But I haven't done it because I feel like I'm on this... Treadmill. Yes. And that's why I haven't done it.

And I feel like therapy is going to be the thing to make me actually take everything in. And I feel maybe I'm scared to go therapy. Maybe. But I feel like i should we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question they don't know who they're writing it for and i don't get to read the question until i open this book so yeah um interesting these are always quite difficult

because they're always quite profound but when was the last time you changed your mind about something life changing I think the last time I changed my mind

was Nala's baby the fact of you know we just broke up and my mind was Nala's baby. The fact of, you know, we just broke up and we had that, yeah, no, we're not going to do this because it just doesn't make sense. And then having that, you know what? Nah, we've got to put our daughter first. Changed my mind.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. And it was like, okay, cool. Let's do it. And, you know,

I feel like what we're about to achieve with that God willing, you know, was a life changing decision. It's interesting because when I reflect on the story you've shared with me today, there was another moment where you had to make a big decision sat in that car after Conan was

Conan's family was attacked yes and it's funny in hindsight how you can see how a decision just in the opposite direction that could have happened through emotion in the moment a decision not to choose maturity or to put something more important first could have sent your life in a completely different direction yes just for temporary feelings you know a decision you can make can make a permanent outcome and it's just like yeah think about it crap thank you for your time it's been i mean it's been incredibly inspiring to to meet you to get to know you to see what you've done and i don't know i feel like life might have you know made us cross paths for reason, because I was thinking a lot about a lot of things to do with like money and investing

and how, you know, how to be a better role model for the next generation of people and young people from slightly challenging backgrounds. And then I'd met you that day. You were doing this incredible thing with Nala's Baby. And it was like the universe had conspired to inspire me at that exact moment to make sure that your story and what you're doing becomes the role model, becomes the thing that young people are aspiring to do. Because not only did you have huge success in this one area of hip hop music and rap and those things, but for you then to go into a completely unexpected a slightly bizarre to be honest the baby wear industry it's the it's the most perfect example of like resisting your labels your labels told you to be a rapper to rap but in resisting your labels you went into a

completely different area where you're absolutely not allowed to be according to yes society and for you to make a huge success there i think is the best evidence we can all take on for our own lives that we are not our labels we can do anything and um and and also um you've given such clarity on like the steps that we take to get there the importance of team the importance of hard work and and much of it is just the importance of self-belief because when your partner was was having those concerns about other baby wear baby products on the market a lot of people would have just accepted it they would have just taken the product that had the eight rating but there's a certain type of person that goes maybe we can change this and that's what you did so thank you for the inspiration thank you for the generosity of your time and thanks for sharing your story