The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Labrinth: The Musical Genius Behind Euphoria

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

Labrinth is a singer, rapper, producer, and composer behind HBO’s Euphoria. Achieving success at a young age, he gave it all up to go to America and start from the bottom all over again. This is his story. A true independent spirit, after getting frustrated with the corporate demands of Simon Cowell’s record label, he gave up his life in the UK where he had number one albums and an A list life to move to LA, where he was totally unknown. Labrinth: Instagram - http://bit.ly/3AvQyfI Twitter - http://bit.ly/3i2O02g Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue my tour manager came back to stage and he was like you know you almost killed someone today. Like, literally, it's like blackouts. Let's do this. I signed to Simon Cowell because my manager at the time was like, it's a bigger check, you're in a label that is going to prioritise you because you're not like anything on their label. This business comes around it and it says, we can turn this into money,

but I allowed someone else to tell me what my next direction is. Everyone was like be a star, have an entourage and who you gonna go out with and I was like what do you mean? Oh maybe Sher Lloyd and I was like what? None of this shit means anything to me. I just was like I'm not enjoying this. I didn't ask myself what I wanted because I was always accommodating what everyone else wanted. When did you realise that something had to change? Well, that's a deep one, no. I was at a place where I couldn't actually talk to people because I had social anxiety. My manager was being weird, our relationship was breaking down.

I had no confidence. I felt suppressed. I got diagnosed with ADHD. When I read about what it's like, I was like, oh shit, it makes sense. I can't even hold a conversation with someone. Was it prohibiting your life? Yeah, 100%. It still does today. But I've learned to be aware of it.

Let's just do something. Just let it go. Euphoria was the first time I felt people actually heard the rawest form of lab. Getting to that point is true freedom. What are your goals now the most important thing in my career is to If this podcast has taught me one thing, it's that we're all created by and defined and shaped and molded by our earliest context. So when you think about your earliest context and how that shaped who you are today and the person you went on to be, I'm talking about the like deep characteristics you have, the deep passions you have, and all those things that were nurtured

in those earliest years. What is your early context? What do I need to know about that context to understand you? Well, that's a deep one now. Um, I, the first thing that comes to my mind is church. Um, family was super religious, not always in the best way. Um, and not that I don't think there's anything wrong with religion. It just was, it was wrapped in a lot of things that I don't always think is healthy. But a lot of, there was a lot of beauty as well in terms of music, worship. And for me in worship was work with energy, like seeing somebody connect with an energy or taking them from their body with a sound or with an with a um with connection in a church

like seeing that happen like every sunday can do something to you and you kind of learn from it um so that was always beautiful and just watching my family because they're like I don't know how this happened but just everyone can sing or play an instrument or they have some kind of musical talent that was super inspiring to be around um and then having a massive family as well was I think heavily shaped me because I always say this to people but standing in the middle of my house when I was I don't know 10 I would have my sisters upstairs singing like R&B records my brother downstairs with his friends playing like yellow jackets jazz music and like I don't know like weather report and then my other brother cyphering in a room with his friends, rapping and banging on an MPC drum machine.

And like being in the middle of that was like, I want to do all of them. And it was just mad, like insanely inspiring just to be around all of these big personalities that even today when I make music, I'm like, would my sister like this? Would my brother like this? Would my family feel this? Where did that come from, that musical household? Who inspired that?

Parents, grandparents? It's weird because on my mum's side, I think it's the church, honestly, because my mum and dad were both in in the church um and they both went to the same church my granddad was a reverend at um this uh the church and his uh my aunties and uncles used to sing around uh and and that kind of do praise and worship and and do like a circuit around the country and that kind of passed down to us um on my mother's side and then on my dad's side he's a guitarist he's uh well rest in peace he's he was a guitarist he was a bass player

um and his whole family were also in the musical side of the church so be like my mom and her family singing and my dad in the kind of uh playing with the musician so it was just kind of like always always it was always around when i was a kid and i think music has been like i guess like my the other sibling that i didn't know was there you know that um that was related to us and i think um yeah i think it was between christianity and thing that was the beginning to me because my house was very very heavily bordered around church everything like literally we couldn't watch uh tv and if uh without like uh the tv been turned off when somebody was kissing so like romance was like oh whoa that's of the devil and then when I went to school that's when the it was like the kaleidoscope went wild

and it was like oh shit all of this stuff exists i really did feel like that when i was a kid i was because it was so sheltered going to central london was like going to another country to me like that's how sheltered it was and it was like home church and then everything else around that was like i'm in a whole other world so growing up for me was just like discovering this other other universe or other dimension if that makes sense yeah yeah what was your what was your relationship like with your mother and father um my mother was um like i was saying, the church was beautiful but also toxic. And my mother was kind of shunned from the church because she had children out of wedlock. And like I'm saying, it's very heavily garden-bordered.

So she was kind of disowned by a lot of our family. And she had moved from North London to Hackney. And from then on, I don't think I saw my grandparents for years after that, after she was kind of put out. One thing that happens in Jamaica is because a lot of them came over here to the land of milk and honey, with race, anything white was better. So my mum was one of the darkest of her family.

And she grew up with being kind of very, a lot of her life was very shunned. It was like, you're the darker one of the family. So don't shoot for the stars. Just stay on the ground, you know And so because she was around a lot of that energy When she was on her own It's like she made a promise to herself To not do that to her kids And so growing up with my mum

It was very super supportive Really? She used to teach us My mum, like I was saying It was very sheltered around uh i'm very religious she wasn't taught because women were supposed to be in the house women supposed to clean and do this have a husband and your husband will go and make the money and do that stuff around so she she came out of this kind of uh community and had no understanding of taxes no understanding how to keep a house

no understanding of the business nothing she didn't know anything and so she literally had to learn from scratch and would study psychology and study transactional analysis and study willpower and she would teach us and sit us all around the table and be like what is willpower and I remember I remember like vividly like nine of us sitting around the table and at the time we're like mom come on this is so boring why do we have to do this but she would kind of pull us into it and then we would end up having these big conversations about things that we just we never understood or never got and she just wanted to make sure she could give us something because she had no money and she was just kind of surviving.

She nurtured our music. She nurtured our creativity. And when she was coming up, that wasn't nurtured. It was shut up, sit down and don't get in our way. That was her upbringing. It wasn't just my grandparents. That was very much common in a lot of the parents of the 60s it was just like children are to be seen and not heard you know and don't don't

embarrass me in front of my friends that was very much that and then with my dad my dad was he was um very much abused when he was a kid by um his grandparent by by his stepfather he was beating a lot when he was a kid and i think that affected him as a as a man like as a father and he left home when he was 15 so he wasn't there for me i didn't see my dad when i was a kid um but i i pity his beginning like because i get why he became who he became um he was super musical and i think that was maybe the most inspiring thing and that's the thing i i got from him i always used to see him playing his guitar when did he leave your household he left how old were you shit i don't even remember that's that's

how long ago like i was young i was super young and i think he came back well he must have came back twice because my i have two brothers and sisters younger than me so um my yeah he came um i think he left i think he left on me um and then my two sisters um that are younger than me rachel and jessica um he came back around and they were trying to like kind of um rekindle yeah yeah do you not remember that the household changing in any way when when he left i think i was too young like i was i was really young so so when i grew up not giving a shit that i didn't have a dad like if that makes sense i didn't have a connection with him i didn't um i didn't know him that way a lot of my older brothers and sisters were very close and very like

this is my guy this is you know like my kids are like I'm best friends with my kids I love like

we have our own private jokes we you know like we have that I never had that with my dad so I didn't feel like anyone left I only noticed how important he was when he died like I was like

oh shit you needed dad and like it was like it was like whoa you only noticed how important he was when he died yeah honestly like honestly before then i was just like oh it's just a sperm sperm donor like i don't really does it doesn't matter to me it doesn't like it's like it was and it wasn't even by my mom it was just like i i didn, I wasn't bothered about it, you know? But then when he died, I was like, I had kids then. He hadn't met my kids. And I remember I was putting my daughter to sleep

and she had a bad dream. And I said, I got you, don't worry, I'm here. And I was like, shit, I've never heard that. And I was like, oh, that's what, like, that's a dad. If you get me, like, that's, that's how important that part of your life is. And then I was like, also, you inherit things from your parents, like, and that's not money. That's not wealth. You do, of course, inherit those things. But I think the most important thing you inherit from your parents is memories, even like mental health support. Like my dad always said this like that sometimes is

like petrol in your tank when you're like um i don't know how to get this business off the ground i remember dad always said this i remember mom said don't never give up like all that stuff like i didn't grow up with that like if you get i mean so um that hit hit me when I was like, my dad's gone and I understood how like instrumental a parent could be in your life when those things are around, you know? Yeah, so that's what I saw anyway. But yeah, that's really like my parents in terms of how they affected me.

I often like, I think I figured myself out in hindsight by almost by comparison of like comparing me to my peers. At a very young age, you kind of notice how you're different from your peers, even from your brothers and sisters. I've got four, there's four of us in my family, kids, I'm the youngest of four. And much of how I've understood myself is by realizing what I'm not. Yeah. You know what I mean? So when you think about like at that young age, under the age of 18, what, who were you figuring out that you were in comparison to the the outside world even with my brothers and sisters i remember coming home with um indie records and i remember

i was working with a girl and she played me blondie and uh like like loads of loads of like like kind of 70s 80s uh indie records i was like shit this is fun like i always wanted to delve in things that were foreign to me because i was like okay i grew up with grime i grew up with hip-hop i get it but it was like where what are these things i don't understand and then when i would bring them home i'd be like check this out and be like okay bro especially coming from the background of like gospel and um like kind of like you know black music um and it was weird to come home with music that that was so foreign you know and so nobody even knew how to compliment me on it but go like you're doing your thing I guess like you

know and and I feel like I've seen that happen uh consistently in my life where I grew up around grime, grew up around grime artists. I went to grime raves, but I never wanted to make grime. And I never felt like I was the kind of black guy that I was supposed to be when I was in those environments. I was like, I was always weird or like I never knew all the dances. I used to dance funky and like I was just I just knew like I don't know if I'm supposed to be here if I had 16 year old you're 16 16 years old weird as hell just just I remember my girlfriend told me about how when she met my wife now but when she was my girlfriend she was like i remember seeing you years ago and um uh you would wear a do-rag i would be wearing like a um you know those capes like marilyn manson capes like

it was like fucking black ass like long ass jacket i would have like a you know those metal fingers um oh yeah fingers yeah yeah the tube yeah yeah i used to have a night finger on and it had like a crucifix on it and it was crazy i don't know why i was wearing it but i wore it and then i had like a dunlop cap like backwards and then i would be wearing dunlop trainers and i was just i was just a weird kid and i would i would always dress in the most funkiest ways ever and my wife was like it was just so funny. You just didn't give a shit. And I didn't even notice I was doing it.

I just was like, well, this is stuff I'm going to wear. But most, I remember being, you know, I was like 14. All I wanted to do was fit in. So all I wanted to do was like wear the outfits that everyone else was wearing and just fit into the crowd and be accepted by the crowd. You sound slightly different. I couldn't.

Even if I wanted to wear what everyone was slightly different i couldn't i even if i wanted to wear what everyone was wearing i couldn't i didn't have the money so it was like what was cool with my family or where our cool was was that we were creative and so we found our way of being popular or being um uh kind of loved amongst our peers by our like character and our personality if you get i mean and that was your whole family yeah all of them dancers singers we would dance together we used to put on we we done a show in school together as a family and put on like a concert and we had the whole school come and pay to watch us perform so we were kind of like little superstars in our neighborhood like if you get i I mean, as a group.

So I remember they used to write articles on us, the Jackson Nine and all this stuff. Like, so it was like, we were very like, like kind of, my family was really loved for just their creativity. We never had the money to be those cool kids. Like somehow we like kind of transcended the physical cool, like the physical side of cool, because we definitely didn't have that stuff interesting do you know who was driving that

in your so you've said like the outside world responded well to it and they kind of embraced it and said but was there someone was there someone at home driving individuality in your in your house or was it just the fact i think it's my mom honestly and it wasn't my mom necessarily my mom didn't get in the way of it and i think that's one thing if when i'm talking about things that you inherit from your parents i could definitely say i inherited that inherited that from my my my mom is that she didn't get in the way of us being ourselves um and if anything she would laugh at it or be like go do you like um um so like i remember. So I remember vividly that being just my mum being open and kind of seeing my older brother, Jamie, was a producer and a DJ

and he used to make his own sound systems because he got inspired by, you know, like dub, basically, you know, like dub. But at the time, everyone was making like Jungle, but it all came from the ska dub world, if you get what I mean. And so I used to help him make his speakers for his DJ sets. And then he would go out into like the festivals or Notting Hill and put on his own DJ set with his friends. And so, yeah, yeah, like that,

all of this stuff was going on like side by side while i was a kid you know sounds like a like a really a nice form of like creative chaos like the environment to be chaotic though chaotic as well well when did you start focusing on music what age i don't know because it just looks yeah It's just kind of like, I guess in school, I had a band called Dynamics. And one of the guys that was in it, you might know him, he's Flo. He's a sick producer.

He's done Little Sims. He's done so many cool albums. Like most of the stuff that everyone's loving right now, he's kind of had a hand in. And we had a band in school in Stoke Newington. Yeah, that would inspire a lot of stuff like um we were making our own music we were like we're gonna be the biggest band in the world we used to argue all the time like we were like like flipping rolling stones we thought we were like like rock stars and in our school we would give out flyers and make our own

flyers um and like stick them up around the school, like come to our concert and all this stuff. So we were just very, very like brashy and like, we got this. What age was this? This was like, when that band started popping. 14. So you leave secondary school at like 16 years old, right? Yeah.

At that point, what's your orientation in life? If I'd asked you what you're going to be when you grow up, what would you have told me at 16 upon leaving school everyone knew I was going to be a musician everyone by that point literally like I remember leaving like we had that in my classroom in school they were like everyone wrote down who do you think is going to be the most successful who do you think is going to be rich first who do you think's this and they were just like lab and like Tim Tim Tim and I was like I didn't even believe it. I was like, okay, cool.

I know I want to do these things, but like I was super mega focused. I used to get in mad trouble just so I could go to the music room. So literally like my whole existence has been like, I want to write records. I want to write records. And like, that's all I do.

I was on a mission to write records. And what age did that start? I know when it it started to when you got signed and when you released your debut album and stuff but I'm trying to understand how long your like mastery process was from the first time you picked up an instrument or rapped or sang or wrote a lyric but it's weird because like my brother Josh um amazing drummer McNasty bad boy drummer. He taught me how to play the bass, taught me how to play the drums. And I would see him doing that. So I'll just copy my older brother.

But because I have so many, then I'll go to Jamie's room and Jamie would teach me how to use the MPC. So I would go to his studio and him and his boys would be smoking, drinking and like on a madness and i i would i he kind of took me under his wing for a bit and i would like go around with him to like in his world which was very much more like it was much more like hip-hop urban so you got this full kind of kind of gritty like more hip-hop like we were listening to Pete Rock Wu-Tang all that shit and then my other brother who was more music like a bit more like like instrument drums uh and I would be around his friends that were musicians you know so we spoke to someone on your team and they said that we could put any instrument in front of you and you'd play it

and it's kind of like I now I kind of understand where that came from yeah yeah it's just like everything's an instrument to me honestly everything like this table yep the sound of your voice is a tone like uh like i i can just hear music all the time like it doesn't stop um and i might be i don't know it might be like i um I got like diagnosed with ADHD because I thought I may have had it and um so I went to go check and I was like when I read about what it's like I was like oh shit um it makes sense why I'm so that's literally this is all I do my life is that it is I raise my children and make music that That's literally been my life. You got diagnosed with ADHD? Yeah.

It's funny because I was sat here recently. Yeah. With an expert on the topic. So it's very front of mind, the topic of ADHD. Yeah. And one of the things he said was that, you know, there's been this rise in ADHD in the world, specifically in Western countries. I'm only saying specifically because i know the stats where i think it's 30 years ago one in 20

kids had adhd now it's one in nine um and his take on it was that adhd is an early response basically when we were young and there was stress in our in our households the the child when they're stressful events learns how to basically turn off their attention as a way to protect themselves yeah like switch their attention away from that thing so and they've looked at all these studies and really inspired by them where they get 65 000 65 000 parents and the parents who have the most stress in their lives end up having kids with adhd yeah makes sense and it's just interesting so it's just front of my thought you know so it goes back to a childhood but yeah it sounds mad stressful

it's not it's not far off like in terms but yeah um it even talking about it sometimes sounds silly because everyone thinks they have adhd um and everyone says it so i i was like i i hate kind of i know i hate a strong word but like talking about adhd i don't enjoy trying to victimize myself with it um and that's why i checked because i was like i think it's disrespectful for a person with something that affects their mental health or something that affects them their ability to to do what they want to do or like to just live a life that is supposed to be I don't know what is normal but yeah you know and that prohibits them and I think it's disrespectful to be like, oh, I'm autistic, I'm this, without really like kind of knowing.

Was it prohibiting your life? Yeah, 100%, still does today. What's the symptom or what was the... Can't finish shit. Forget, like literally it's like blackouts. It's like, even even in conversation sometimes when people say something to me it would be like i take in the information it just kind of dies away and i'm like shit i can't even hold a conversation with someone or keeping up relationships remembering to get

back to people um and that in business in terms of networking and and i'm not talking about networking from a um using people like i'm not ladder chasing but there is a part of it where it's like yeah your your life your business is not going to change if you don't respond and so like i would i would work with artists and it would be like lab you're so sick i love your shit yeah please like can can you write my album i'll be like yeah and then start the record and they'll be like they haven't heard from me where's lab why is he he just he just clocks out you know and it's like I'll just forget I'm doing it and I'll get dragged into something else I wonder if there's a relationship between ADHD and uh creativity because you know I hear a very

similar thing from pretty much all of the artists that i've sat here with about about and what you've what you've just described there going back to the this this uh all these instruments you can play and all these brothers and sisters that are playing a different variety of instrument and learning different sort of art forms as it relates to like creativity um how important do you think it has been for your creativity and the art that you've created in your career to have all of these i remember one one person i spoke to talked about creativity as being like all of these different clouds in your mind and then sometimes the clouds hit each other and that's like a new idea yeah yeah but in order to be

creative you have to have as many clouds as possible i feel that um i think that's in learning like it's like um being able to create variety in your ability to um transmit um like an idea because i always look at i don't i look at creativity as um articulate in your soul and that that's the true form for me like because you can be creative but not really tell the truth while you're being creative like you're just like oh I I'm making something that I think people would like um and that there's and you can still be creative while doing that where it's like okay cool here's something that I know people are going to respond to I'm going to get a reaction out of you and then there's the other side where I think to me I believe it's art where you're transmitting and you're articulating the sound or the frequency

of your soul to a person and I feel like every soul has a song even even if it's not in music like every soul um has a uh a direction or a place it wants to go and it has purpose and it's like i i can and i always ask artists i'm like what do you hear in you like not what do you hear outside of you and oh um what's it burner boy's doing this and that guy's doing this and if i mix these together then it maybe makes me and it's like no no what's in you what do you hear like right here like just internally and so um for me I had to do that to find um what I wanted to say and and I'm still finding that I'm still kind of like um I guess it's learning how to like uh be unafraid to be like totally naked because bearing your soul

is naked like it's like it's like if i do this someone's gonna be like this is shit and it's gonna hurt if you're in the process of learning to be unafraid was there a time that you were taught to be afraid um my whole life like everything i'm still afraid now but but I can see it and I think that makes a difference um in terms of um whether I choose to be afraid but before I had no choice I was just like I don't even know what this is I just was like I'm not enjoying this I wasn't enjoying my career so I was like I'm not enjoying why am I not enjoying this and then I was like okay I'm not saying what I want to say I'm not saying what what I feel like saying or what I feel excited about saying and I feel like my world is being

governed by um accommodating my periphery like my manager says if you do this this is going to gain a reaction and it's kind of like your inner child says oh I want somebody to say he's cute I want someone to say he's worthy and so you run towards that that energy like and and I was always saying um in the music industry it's like a bunch of kids trying to get a pat on the back that's what we're all doing and it's like if you see it in your A&R or you see it in your peers and everybody's trying to get that pat on the back like well done good boy and everybody wants to get the good boy. And so we're all running off to good boy. But when you finally realize that, I don't give a shit about your good boy.

I don't want it. I want a good boy for myself. I want to be like, you said it. Like you actually said what was internally going on. And does it matter what people um say on the other side like it and getting to that point where you're like um I am comfortable with what I will receive after I've said what I said um from my soul I think for me is like true freedom is like okay cool I'm gonna say what i need to say that's a journey right yo that's just scary man that's a journey so you start you know you start out in your career

yeah you're trying to trying to get on your line in the ropes people are telling you giving you advice you don't know better yeah so you follow the advice church boy in in the music industry sometimes the advice pays off so you go okay i'm gonna listen to you more yeah yeah and then at some point and that's the worst part is when it pays off. So you go, okay, I'm going to listen to you more. Yeah, yeah. And then at some point in your career. And that's the worst part is when it pays off. Then you go, then yeah. Because you think it works. You're like, well, I did everything I didn't want to do, but it worked.

So maybe I should do more of this. And then. What are you referring to? I mean, just like records or like. What part of your career is this though? I think. Okay. So like with Simon Cowell and when I signed to Simon Cowell

I signed to Simon Cowell because my manager at the time was like it's a bigger check you're in a label that isn't going to know is going to prioritise you because you're not like anything on their label I was like yeah great idea but I didn't think about it for myself i allowed someone else to tell me what my

next direction is because um i did i don't think i had the strength at the time to even think about what i wanted for myself if you get me same way i owned a restaurant that was my manager i was like you should own a restaurant i was like yeah let's own a restaurant and then i was like i don't know shit about a restaurant i've never cared about a restaurant and and i only realized that later but it kind of felt like you're supposed to look like a mogul and you're supposed to look important and you're supposed to gather all these things that that that start to create um what i'm hearing up appearances. That's what it is. Yeah. What I was hearing from that is like, because you didn't,

I was going to say, because you didn't know what you wanted, someone else told you what you wanted, but it's more like part of it sounded like you didn't have the conviction to stand up for what you wanted. Yeah. That's what it is. I didn't ask myself what I wanted. I never did because I was always accommodating what everyone else wanted. And I still do it now sometimes but but I've learned to to be aware of it is that because is that in part because of like when we're coming up we're a little bit desperate just to get on that we just we don't have the power yet to say like I want to do it my way because we're still trying we still need to check or because we still think one thing I love about the adhd is i don't think about money the same way most people do so like i've a lot of my peers in the music industry they're building a business because they can like they're going okay this yeah we're gonna do this and that's gonna

come with that and they have this whole internal plan and i I'm like, my plan is like, if I can take a sound out of heaven and put it on a fucking computer, that is mad to me. Like that, that is like, that literally lights up my whole soul. And I feel so excited. I literally, sometimes when I'm making music,

I cry because I'm like, it hit me that hard, if you get what I mean. And so like that for me is like, it literally like, I would live for that. That's enough for me. But then, then around that, like taking Stardust from the clouds or from wherever you want, from the universe, this business comes around it and it says, we can turn this into money, but you have to do this with it and then you've got to funnel it and you can you can only do this in order to get that and you're like oh shit okay cool be a star what does the star look like oh um be in a car with flipping tinted windows have an entourage

and going like you're the shit okay cool but i don't really know how to do that i'm kind of really a geek like because that's what i was when i was 16 and then before you know it you're like I don't know that this shit means anything to me and I felt like I was being that's the time I think when you're talking about this place where I don't believe I belong I was in the music industry and like I was around I remember like in Psycho they went who are you going out with like when I was first, I remember like in Psycho, they went, who are you going out with? Like when I was first signed, it was like, who are you going to go out with? And I was like, what do you mean? It was like, oh, maybe Sher Lloyd.

And I was like, what? I was like, what do you mean? And then, oh, we're going to send you to this party. JLS are there. You just got like, there's going to be photographers outside the building. Be ready to be like thing, because we're trying to put you around this facade so i was

like oh shit this is this is how it works and i guess and and so being around that that was instantly like i i thought studying music theory and studying modes and scales was was your like uh what made you worthy of being in this industry if you get i mean um but it became like no entertainment isn't craft entertainment is entertainment and people will be entertained by anything so play the game yeah and and and so it was like find your way like just try and try and lie as long as you can when did you feel when did you feel the symptoms of that so i sit here i've seen a lot of people who did did a very similar thing and they say i spent a decade like wearing the mask and like wearing the outfit yeah and then at some point you know i remember fun cotton saying

like she's driving to work and she just starts having panic attacks from the motorway she thinks fuck this i'm going to my happy place and she launches this brand called happy place where she gets to control her own destiny and be herself she doesn't have to do the like oh yeah i'm fine you know she can be the full expression of her that's a hard one bro yeah and it's funny yeah we all meet each other yeah and and that's is we're all the same boy or girl waiting to get the pat on the back good boy good good girl and then and then uh i feel like we meet each other and we're all pretending that we've we've got it together so i could have seen fern and she's like i'm dying inside right now but she has to be fun i got it together i'm like shit she's got it so well together man it's like man i'm i'm lying like

they they could see it like i'm a fake i'm a fake and everyone's doing that but it's weird like and then it turns you into this person that's like getting kicks out of lying better than the other like so you go to an award ceremony and it's like we sold 50 million or i don't know five million records this week how many did you sell and it's like i'm i'm valuable you start yeah people believe in my lie and now I believe in it and it's like like it starts to create this thing in you where if it becomes successful

like we were saying it's like if it works and it pays off then you're like oh I need to I need to like I need to be this guy now

I've got I've got to believe in this guy and so yeah it's so funny when you're saying with Fern I'm like I would have never known

I would have never known. I would have never known that that stuff was going on because I feel like I feel like she had it well together. And I was like, I was having panic attacks. What were the symptoms then for you? When did you realize that something had to change? I was smashing guitars on stage and I know rock stars do that. I was a church boy, so that was big for me. And one show I was performing and I was like, I hate this. I was saying I hate this, but I wasn't saying it in my mind. I was like, I could feel it. I was like, why am I in front of this crowd?

There's not even an audience I wanted to be in front of. What am I doing? They're loving it but but I'm still just like what is this and um my band when I was talking about accommodating my band's eating my um rider before I get into my room because I was accommodating everyone to the point where it was like like me please like I'll do whatever I can to make sure you're comfortable in my space even if it means giving you all my space so my band was eating up my rider my some of the people on my um team were taking my uh like stuff from my um like they would you know like brands when brands give you stuff they would take it and give it to

their families nothing was given to my family and my missus had actually noticed this um and i was like no no no i was always making excuses for for everyone that was doing what they were doing where does that come from in you that people pleasing trying to trying to fit it must be my dad it must be like that my dad because i think i've silenced my dad's absence in me so it was just a sperm donor don't worry and i had all i had this thing in my head where it's like i don't need this guy but it's like um i think uh him not being present is like what do i need to be for you to be here if you get me and i think um that happened and also i think the music industry helped create some of that as well where it was like because before the music industry i was that guy i throw my durag on didn't care i looked wonky as hell bro it was i look back at some of the pictures and i'm dying i'm like who is this guy but but i was confident enough to walk

around london looking like this like hodgepodge guy and so because yeah because i think the music industry was like you need to be this and i was like whoa how in order to be accepted yes and from a young age you'd learned that like you'd i guess at some stage you felt not accepted by your father is that what you're saying i think that where that came from yeah i think there's an element of that yeah yeah i think that church as well was there and where it was like there was a way to behave there was a way to be wrong there was a way to be to to be loved if you behave this way this is what you get you know like um god loves you yeah god god loves you if you behave like this interesting i'm really intrigued by the idea of like how how we become people pleasers because and it typically even from speaking to gabble who

literally read a book about this um he says the same thing in those early years when you know we were seeking the acceptance or validation from a parent and we're struggling to get it we have that battle with them of trying to trying to prove that we're good enough so that becomes our adult tendency to seek approval and seek trying to you know fit into others expectations you become an artist that becomes really prevalent in your in your life in your music to the point that you're on stage performing music that it sounds like what is this who made this yeah do you know what so many of us suddenly if we if we act inauthentically for a lot enough time we build a life around that authenticity that's right build a friendship group around it we build a in your case a fan base

around it and i dropped it i was like no i a fan base around it. And I dropped it. I was like, no, I'll allow this. And then the pain of keeping up with that expectation and that community you built around you that doesn't resonate with who you truly are. That's when the panic attacks and the psychology kicks in and tries to save you. But I think I've spoken to a lot of artists about it as well.

Everyone thinks that by doing you, you're still going to achieve that same success. And that's the scary thing. I think for a lot of people where they're like, I found myself now, I'm going to make the album that I owe, the piece of craft or work or thing that means everything to me.

And it's like, no, it's entertainment. People don't give a shit. Like you did it's like, no, it's entertainment. People don't give a shit. Like you did it for you, just do it for you. And it's like, you have to know that some people may resonate with the true you, or you might have to go and do work and build a new audience. And it's going to take the same amount of time, but people don't want that. Like they're like i'm gonna be me and it's like yeah uh have you got 10 views on this one yeah oh shit i'm gonna jump back on that well that's when you learn that there is some kind of truth to the game that's the reality that's the reality of it i had to learn that as well it's like um being you is for you and

you have to do it for you and you also have to accept the consequences of of being you um and even the consequences of the way you do business as well like uh i don't want to i don't want to talk all around the world saying hello to every and every person not really connecting with the people i'm i'm meeting i'm just, I'm famous. Just kiss my ass and I'm going to move over to the next country and do the same. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't, it doesn't excite me. And it drains my energy, drains my creative energy.

But if you don't tour, if you're getting a million for every show or you're getting, I don't know, half a mil for every show, you're like, whoa, maybe I wouldn't. It's hard to say no to that. Do I want to, do i want to do i want to go do that and it's like but then if i go the true me that my center says no okay no i'm not

going to do that well then don't cry about it after and and a lot of us do where it's like i made this decision a lot of us can do that you know but learning to like really accept your choices and live and die by them um can can help you find fulfillment and that to me is like money that's that's that's like you have this gradual feeling building from the sound of it and then is that day on stage was that the the turning point for you was that the day i threw a guitar in the air i almost hit a camera woman why did you throw it i was pissed i was i i was backstage something happened my manager was being weird our relationship was breaking down um and i i i had a dependency it was intense i had no confidence i literally i was at a place where

I couldn't actually talk to people because I was, I had social anxiety. And so he was super confident and outgoing and kind of like, was like someone to lean on. And that kind of went up to my, my early days in my career. And so our relationship started to break down and it felt like if I didn't have him saying my music's good it wasn't um and and I kind of looked for him to him for that like like a father figure yeah yeah yes exactly that like I I kind of saw him as a father figure and we we had a really close relationship and then it just started to break down when money started coming in and um I felt that happening but I didn't know what was going on internally i was just like something's weird this is just messed up and then i went on stage threw this guitar in the air this

cameraman was there and i remember there was a fan in the crowd because i'm a people pleaser but also it pisses me off i was watching the crowd and there was this one guy and he was looking at me and he was like it was just like he was just saying dickhead like you look like an idiot

and I was like I believe you ah and then I just threw this guitar in there and it almost hit this woman and I didn't see it and my tour manager came back to the stage

and he was like you know you almost killed someone today and I was like wait a minute so you threw this guitar because some guy in the crowd was giving you a funny look. Him, all this stuff was going on. And then I was like, what the fuck am I doing here? Like, cool.

And then I threw this guitar in the air because I was just like, fuck this place. And then it literally just was like, and just nearly just skimmed her and and and when he said that i was like whoa i was like something's going on i need to deal with it did you have an anger problem oh man a mad anger problem but that's adhd as well but mad anger issues like like from primary school i i don't i don't really i haven't seen that guy for a very long time but crazy because it reminds me again of the thing you know gab gab always here like five hours ago he's literally written a book on this that's why all these topics are so front of mind yeah yeah and what he was talking about is there's there's such thing as healthy anger where um which is actually

a cure something that allows us to heal because he says that when we have like chaotic upbringings and we you know have abandon chaotic upbringings and we you know have abandonment from a parent etc etc we it creates this kind of like internal anger and resentment yeah but at the same time it creates people pleasing yes and suppression suppression yeah yeah the anger becomes suppressed and it looks like people pleasing on the surface but then it'll is that out and there's like what the hell is that? It's like the volcano coming over the top and then... Yeah, those layers. Yeah, yeah.

And that's what... There was a lot of that where it's like, you can be passive aggressive. And I feel like... It sounds like a contradiction to be a people pleaser, but then to have the volcano can erupt. Yeah, I know. I know it sounds wild.

But it makes sense. It makes sense, yeah. Because you're suppressing so much stuff and you're not saying... And that's where the big thing is. In music, I was it sounds wild, but it makes sense. It makes sense, yeah. Because you're suppressing so much stuff and you're not saying, and that's where the big thing is. In music, I was also, I felt suppressed. So it was like, can I go, can I find, can I stop suppressing that as well? Because I was doing it musically where I was in, I was in this kind of pop realm and I was like, no,

but I want them to hear all the layers of me. And I think Euphoria was the first time I felt people actually heard what was going on on my hard drive for real, for real. And then with it connecting, I was like, oh, they get it. But I was like, it took so long for me to be able to try and share it. And it took for somebody else to go, give me your hard drive. I'm going put this all in my i'm gonna put all of this stuff in my show and i want you to make new stuff for my show

for them for me to not suppress it because i it was like i'm gonna do it for you i mean you mentioned panic attacks yeah yeah something fern told me about from lost hair everything lost hair yeah i had like i had clumps of hair falling out it was mad like it was like I got to there and my wife was a big like part of supporting that because she um yeah she just was like she could see it all happening um and funny enough I couldn't fight for her at the time as well like um like she could see it all happening she was, this is not the way business should be done. Shouldn't be treated this way. And,

and a lot of the people that were around me, uh, made her like the monster. She became the, she was one with the boundaries. Yes, that's right. And so,

you know, like, um, have you ever seen Spinal Tap? No, no, no. Okay.

But I, I kind of, I call it the Spinal Tap moment where the missus becomes a manager and she wasn't managing me. She wasn't even trying to. She hates the music industry, but she wanted to be like, I want to protect this guy's sanity.

And everyone else around me was like, we've got a gig for flipping a hundred and certain grand. What do you mean? Like, why are you not going to do the show? And it's like, yeah, yeah, no, I know you're feeling tired. You're feeling, you're feeling a bit emotional. Okay. Okay.

Don't worry, man. Don't worry. Like, look at what he's doing. He's doing all this work and comparisons and all this stuff. And so there was a lot of manipulation and she was seeing it. And I think they kind of didn't like that. So she got, she got intensely like kind of... Protective.

Yeah, yeah. But also then she became the martyr. Like she became the... There was a witch hunt and it kind of felt like it was directed at her. And I wasn't strong enough to support her in that time. If you get me, like I was still too... You were taking the wrong side.

I was accommodating. No, I wasn't even taking sides. It was like, no, no, it's because of this. Okay, so you were taking the wrong I was accommodating no I wasn't even taking sides it was like no no it's it's because of this and okay so you were just like okay I'm supposed to have it together but I don't have it together but like no I don't think they meant that and and I didn't hear the stuff that was going on but when I heard what was going on I was like oh shit this is crazy um have you ever spoke to her about that yeah yeah that's, yeah. That's what built, strengthened our relationship, was that I said to her, I apologised to her,

and I think a lot of people don't notice how strong and powerful women are beside people that are in the public eye or, like, in the music industry or entertainment industry. It's like, some of them, some of them are, like, of course, wonky or whatever, and are there for the wrong reasons, but the ones that are there for the wrong reasons but the ones that are there for

the right reasons sometimes get um they're kind of yeah they they don't get treated very well if you get me because it's like you're the guy you're the person with the guy yeah they do like yeah and it's always that it's like you're the person with the guy like um and so she um she just was like mad supportive and she introduced me to a shrink and got me like a lot of support, like just to talk to someone and the life coach because she worked around psychology. She was just really like, she put me on to a lot of things

that I wouldn't have had if she wasn't around, you know? So it was like super important to have her around. Women in that that feminine they call it like the feminine energy yeah it's so that particular feminine energy is so lost upon men these days yeah we talked about it earlier with this whole idea of like be more of a man and yeah and don't express your emotions and be a tough guy and all this stuff but then you look at the stats around mental health and suicide and you see that it's just not working for me yeah yeah this approach over masculinity is just not clearly not working yeah women and including in my life yeah have an ability to to open us up to

the other side yeah which is unbelievably healing she's mad she's just super smart and like um i just think she was more aware she she had like uh she had a start that was pretty intense and so it woke her up to a lot of things that I didn't I wasn't um aware of and so she kind of schooled me on a lot of things that I think if she wasn't around I would have lost it I would have been like I've been like where's lab and then it would have been like oh right he's on YouTube with like no teeth shouting at the camera i don't know like some you know how people go like way left but yeah like i think if she wasn't around i wouldn't be around honestly when you look back on the art that you created in that

time in that phase of your life the music the hits pass out frisky that you know all of that music you created how do you feel about the music now so if you walked in here and it was playing how would you like how would you um I laugh now I'm like oh that's vibes that's fun like it's kind of like it's fun um and sometimes I see the brilliance and I'm like like pass that still hits me and I'm like I can see the energy I and it was a moment where I kind of pulled up my sleeves and I was like I'm not doing this shit anymore I'm not gonna fake it I'm gonna make something I want to hear and and then it paid off but I have moments like that and then I get scared again like it's like pass out yeah and it and it takes me a lot to get there where I'm like

I'm gonna do something good and then it's like everyone's like well done do more and I'm going to do something. And then it's like, everyone's like, well done, do more. And I'm like, I'm too scared. Like that can happen where I get too shook. It's just dealing with yourself. It's being, being aware of yourself. Like what I was saying,

to be conscious of yourself, aware of your behavior, helps you create peace in your life, like, and make choices in a moment that are going to, um, support you in more ways than one. If you get me.

More than just finance or. Yeah. And finance just becomes such a big thing in this industry. Even status and finance, being a father finances, like you run, you run for it because you're taught. That's the way a man's supposed to be.

why did you go to, eventually you go to LA at what a man's supposed to be. Why did you go to, eventually you go to LA at what, 24 years old or something? Why did I go to LA? Yeah. Was it 24 years old? You left the UK. I wanted to go to LA to get away from the UK.

I'm not even just get away. I think that was going on internally. Like I was like, I needed to do something different. But this was after you released your first album. Yeah. And I was getting, I was taking,

it took me like ages to do a second. And I was like, I don't know, I was just in my head about it. And so I went to LA to go and just be somewhere different, try working with some other writers and like maybe kind of get new fresh energy, you know. I was getting in my head about it. Yeah. That second album. So you released the first album on Psycho. They always call it the difficult second album. That head about it yeah you that second album so you released the first album on psycho they always call it the difficult second album that's what they call the

second album because it's like you had a moment and then it's like oh i gotta do that again it's like that was on accident and it is always an accident it's like nothing um like you can paint anything by numbers but you you can never even in business you can't anything by numbers, but you, you can never, even in business, you can't recreate exactly the same thing unless it was supposed to happen. Cause the world's changed. That's it. Yeah.

So it's like, yeah, like we're even in this industry now, like me and my team have been talking about it, but it's like, we're in a whole new world. Most records are sold online, like heavily, like TikTok,

like TikTok. That's it. That's, that's, that's how you sell records. And so to come into that and go, how do I find myself amongst this without losing, um, my authenticity? Um, like, what do you do? Like, you know, like, and so then it kind of goes back to a lot of the things that have happened where it's like don't be that guy don't don't be that guy and just like keep up appearances um find your way find a way of saying it in a way that means something to you know i'm really you said because i sat with lewis capaldi and he said to me i'm shitting it he's his second album's coming out he was like i'm shitting it and he told me about the procrastination the doubt that first album bang this one did a billion streams he was like i'm shitting it and he told me about the procrastination the doubt that first album bang this one did a

billion streams he was like i'm shitting it because of the expectation i genuinely i get it like not that i would i've ever been there but i can understand how any business is like that yeah it's like we smashed it and um yeah it's do it again yeah it's like do it again another one of those when when artists and when people generally make that move and they make their way out to America, they become like a small fish in a big pond in many respects. Like people aren't stopping you in the street like they are here. Oh, that was sick.

Just like, I remember going to the Grammys and I was like standing next to John legend and who else was there there was massive artists yeah worldwide success massive records and i came to stand in and my publishers put me in there and the cameramen just that they were taking john john stand there um what's the chrissy chrissy's dad and then i came in and it was just like this they dropped the cameras and then the guy was like this that was like oh shit but do you know what I you know when you're talking about losing um or not getting the reaction you wanted it was the best reaction for me I loved it it was like they don't even give a shit I can I can go be that guy again I can go be the guy that was expectation yes there was no expectation so I was in this environment

where there's no expectation and then it was like now I can make me now I can go and make who I am and I was in an environment on and when I'm talking

racially the reason why I'm talking racially is because I felt pulled by these two races in this country sonically. And then when I was over there, there was none.

There was none like, Lab, you need to be hood, go do another this. Lab, we need more pop music. You need to be a bit more regional, connect with the radio more, do more Simon Cowell music. And it was that, there was a pull between me, and I felt like I don't belong anywhere like because I like both and I find I can see myself in both but um there's always

somebody that doesn't like it and that's what um kept on affecting me was that there's always someone that doesn't like what I'm doing and so I kind of became comfortable with that feeling of being like yes someone's not going to like this like and and if you're a people pleaser that's going to make you procrastinate yeah yeah 100% but then I'm like I kind of fell in love with it in LA where it was just like that guy doing that it was just like I don't know who this guy is don't care and then I had to like work my way up but in a way that was more pure it was like, I'm just going to do what I love. And I was working with people over there

that just kind of like, it shed, it pulled away all of the kind of mess that kind of created this thing in my head, you know, about creativity. And that's like kind of a process of like reinvention, right? You're kind of reinventing yourself from, again, because the expectation is gone you're kind of reinventing yourself from from again because the expectation is gone no not reinventing um realizing realizing because reinvention is trying to get

somewhere realizing is actually going this is who i am like peel away the onion like what's underneath and it's like in that for me that's that's the most important thing in my career most important thing in my existence is to go what's the rawest form of lab of my person of my existence what's what's the rawest form of me even without this body like what's the soul what's what's my center saying what is that um what do you mean like what's the soul? What's my center saying? What is that? What do you mean? What is the center? Who is Lab?

What's the purest form? If I peel back all those layers on that onion, what is at the core of Lab? It's a difficult question, one that I'd struggle to answer. No, I call it calling your tears. Yeah. So sometimes when i sing i call this calling your tears like it's like i want to hear the fucking center of you as well i give you the center of me and i want to hear the center of view and even bummy notes whatever the fuck is coming out it's like can i can i can i speak to you beyond your like oh i have this thing and i've got money and i'm

saying well who's the guy and i'm like if i can sing and do this to you and you see you and you and and we both see uh beyond our flesh beyond the things that bind us on earth. That shit for me is like, that's what I want to see. That's what I'm always trying to get to. Not what you were taught when you were five. Not my mask. You know what I mean? Not what was given to you or you were raised into.

It's like, what does your soul want? What's your soul song as well and so like when i'm singing i'm like like for me um frequency has is is a language as well like music of course yeah like hearing a melody you can you can hear a feeling from it you can hear something saying something to you that's why we listen to music we're like it speaks to me and i'm like uh can i speak to you can i can actually truthfully speak to you beyond the bullshit and usually frequency is one of our like most powerful languages like literally everything is by vibration like everything on earth is vibrating that's that's how like and and that's how we can identify a lot of things you can feel energy if you get me so for me I'm like getting to the core of that

is like the most exciting thing for me every time I go into the studio i want to be there but i'm fighting to to get away from needing to please like and and that's that clouds my mission all the time still today yeah 100 without a doubt but but it's not as loud as it used to be you got music coming out soon yeah what was what's the process been like making this this new body of fun yeah it was fun it was fast um as i worked with a band my band lsd me and cr and diplo have a band and in that in working with CR I kind of learned how to let go a bit and um when I went to go write my album after the long album the long number two um I just kind of was like yeah let's just do just do something just do it let it go don't think about it I did think I did end up thinking about it like a little later on because I've had the album for a while. But I just was like, I enjoy these melodies.

I enjoy what I'm doing. I'm going to leave it there. And alongside Euphoria, I was like, a lot of these things were teaching me to do that, like come out of that, the pleasing and just go, what are you hearing? Write what you hear from the sky and that's it. And just leave it there.

So that's what I did with this record as well. How much is this record a reflection of how you're feeling and where you are in your mind and your psychology? How much of that is reflected through the music and what you've created? I believe that this record is one of the steps towards me being naked I don't think I'm as naked as I want to be yet

But I believe that it's getting me there And even with this album, it was dedicated to my missus A lot of the songs on the album were dedicated to my missus Because like I was talking about about where she stood up for me and supported me through my experiences. I kind of wanted to, I turned our relationship in the music industry into two lovers, Bonnie and Clyde riding through the cosmos. So literally it's like um natural born killers in space that's what the whole album was and that was my like um uh inspiration for the record is that it's all love songs but um all of the love songs are me taking photos of moments

with my with my wife and things we've been through together um and so i didn't even write i didn't write in a like way where it was like i'm gonna say oh a couple of weeks ago on saturday when this happened no it's not that it's more it's has like it's me uh um amplifying like uh like little moments that me and my wife have had where do you get where where like sort of physically do you does moat does your inspiration show up everything is a song bro like everything in here in the streets in the in the gym. This is a song, this is a song,

I Wait For You. This bottle's sitting here and if you imagine that everything on earth is alive, this bottle was made just to sit here to wait to be poured

into my cup. So that's a song. I Wait For You. I wait for, at your beck and call whenever you need me. And it's like, I'm turning this bottle into a person

and I'm like, oh, don't you know how long I've needed to be wanted? Or don't you know I have my own things or things I want for myself, if you get me? So every like little thing like can be like turned into or dramatized into a song, you know, like, does that make sense? I'll wait for you and I'll nutritionally complete you. I'll complete you. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm, it's like, I'm, I'll be your servant.

It's like, um, but like, when is my moment? Like, or you can just find things in it. Like there's just one thing sitting there and like start to peel the onion of, okay, what would it feel like if I just had to sit there? Like I was created and I just had to sit there to replenish somebody's health. Like, have you always thought like that?

Cause that's quite an abstract way to think like the metaphor, the symbolism of what that bottle is doing there a lot of people would say oh that's a you know a drink yeah that's everything bro and have you cultivated yourself to think in such a way over time where you've lent into that or is that something that you've just always had as a no that's that's it that's it for me like with everything is like because i guess um like you're saying with growing up um you're going how do people see the world and you try to see the world through other people's eyes especially with when you grow up with like either traumas or like an intense home you learn to kind of observe a lot and so like in observation you go into like storytelling bro like it's like layers and layers of storytelling like um yeah so i just see every

every song even sounds for me have colors sounds for me have pictures um so i always have an idea usually what scares the idea away is people pleasing honestly like i know i i know what my idea is but it's like learning how to in a business um especially that we go from writing in our bedrooms to becoming ceos of companies without knowing it um you have to learn how to run your business and turn like get your business to articulate what you want to say without being frightened of judgment. I'm lab that just got signed to Psycho. Okay. Day one of Psycho, I get to meet you here now

and I get to come and ask you for advice. I'm you on that day that you signed with Psycho. What advice do you give me? To live your life, whatever it's supposed to be. And I won't take back anything that's happened honestly like because um I believe that um everything happens to build you and I wouldn't have learned the things I've learned in order to become who I am today so all my challenges are turning me into who I'm supposed to be so do you think if you told me yeah do you think if you'd

given me advice so I'm here you know when you signed that deal with psycho do you think if you'd given me the advice i would have listened no uh no no i wouldn't have listened to me i would have been like i'll be like yeah man people love my music let's go like because you just don't know in it you don't know what you're going to experience um yeah so i would i would i would say go and experience what you need to experience because like you're going to head to your to your north in whatever way you can and some people don't ever find their north because they don't learn to go okay um let me take a look at myself you know like i think that's the my dad did that the way just, he wasn't able to be vulnerable enough to go, okay, maybe this, or maybe, like, could I change this?

Or actually, I'm not happy here, you know? And so I feel like if you can do that in your life, I don't think anything's wrong with it. I think you'll be able to find your north, like, by being able to observe yourself. What are your goals now i imagine to make the cosmic opera okay bro it's mad no tell me that's your goal i want to hear it what's oh yeah yeah i do i want to make an opera you want to make an opera yeah yeah i want to

write an opera i can hear the sounds i can hear how it looks feels um and um yeah i just i want to i want to like make um like uh i want to do things with choirs that nobody's done i can hear all these things that i'm like nobody's done this i'm gonna go do it like literally i'm there do you know we did this podcast live with a live gospel choir we toured it up and down the country oh really yeah yeah that's my sister's choir really my sister was in that choir yeah i'm cheryl she used to work with um uh what's it the house she was part of making it yeah yeah it was crazy so we had this like 30 40 person choir the band and it's this mixture between like the visual so the video would come in and it would like crackle from people on this podcast yeah and then you'd have me with spoken words and then the choir would come in and like say the message in music if that makes

sense yeah yeah so i might be talking about the struggle i had with like um the the one self-doubt and then the other young ambitious kid that knew he wanted to be a millionaire because he was insecure whatever yeah and on one hand you've got wait till i get my money and then you've got niles barkley and it was that kind of like like music and stuff yeah bro you're doing it man that's exactly it but it is for me you get afraid now i'm afraid of i'm just saying oh yeah i mean did you feel do you feel Do you feel Maybe used to your fears Now

So like stepping out on stage At the London Palladium We opened up at the London Palladium And stepping out on stage At the London Palladium Never having done this Before in front of people And knowing that

They'd bought tickets Without having any idea What they'd bought tickets to They're expecting a live podcast So they're expecting this on stage Okay And then there's quite And you know

There was a moment of that Where you've just got to be At peace with the uncertainty Okay yeah and all the great things come from being at peace with the uncertainty yeah you know which is you feel like maybe your peace with the uncertainty comes from your parents um yes so i would say my parents were so absent from my life like my mom and dad were like my mom was never in when i got home she was never in when i woke up so i got to play yeah kind of experiment if you know what i mean that makes so much so you start building evidence in yourself like well i tried this thing and it kind of works

yes yeah you kind of never unlearn that lesson you never once you've seen behind that curtain that you can just try stuff yes and are you okay with the um like if it bombed would you be okay the honest answer yeah so if it bombed, would you be okay? The honest answer. Yeah. So if it bombed, bombed. No, because. No, no, no. Look, it's crazy. Because I remember, I remember, you know, the feedback we got is like nothing I've ever got in my crib.

But you get that one message. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That goes, that was fucking weird. And I'm thinking about it the next night before I go out. I'm thinking that one person said it was fucking weird yeah yeah yeah I feel you even though we haven't

everyone's like this is brilliant I loved it and you're just like that one guy yeah I feel you because a search for validation can be a real motivator

in your life it can force you to like go out there and do great stuff but at the same time it also makes you really susceptible to criticism yeah yeah yeah

no it does it drives you but then also it scares you and it's like but if you like that's what I love about hip-hop i was watching um hip-hop evolution and loads of the guys on there they kind of were just like we're already the scumbags of the earth to this country like there's nothing to lose yeah and i kind of when i watch it i'm just like i love the like to just they just go and do anything because it was just

like well like I have one out a record on the album called only way is up here and I say um the only way is up um what's it it was like um basically like yeah the only way is up like it's like literally if you're at the pit of of the bottom bottom, it's like, there's nothing else to do. So it's just like, they were just like, I'm going for, I'm, I'm taking it all. And that's where hip hop turned into,

well, it's like a massive industry now. Like, and it wasn't, it started from a guy just being on like, turned on turntables, you know? So,

um, when you, sometimes I get inspired by seeing that. When your next project comes out, say every song on the album gets a trillion views it's the first album ever

to get a trillion views on every record right next time you see me I'm going to be like yeah what's going on I probably won't say if you get a trillion views why are you speaking like that

no what do you mean how am I speaking just with glasses just looking down and your entourage is really till it comes yeah that's why

Lab doesn't want to talk right now why are you speaking about yourself in the first person but are you scared of that what of becoming a dickhead no no no that too

but like if if you're next up you get a trillion views on every record here comes expectation again suddenly you've got something to lose again

no burn it down every time you'll burn it down you'll move to another country burn it down every time you're burning down move to burn it down just burn down the house like uh and it's so beautiful to like to be free of expectation of your own and of your own expectation as well for me it's like you're like forrest gump man you could do anything like with that when you're free from and free uh funny my son this is his favorite song right now free from desire man um but anyway but when you are free from desire

in terms of like the need for an like a reception or the need for validation it's like if you actually put that down if you said i don't need validation you're like you're just gonna go do anything bro like you'll just go ham you know and some people are born like kind of have that like it's just in them where they're just like well maybe they're scared but they they don't show it and they're just able to just move on really fast and they have insane resilience and i'm like if i had that um like what would i've, what would I have done? What would I have done? And I'm not a person to go back to the past,

but, but I'm like, like how free would it be? And how freeing would it be if you could just go, cool, that didn't work, let's go. Like,

and not even that didn't work. Just, I'm going to do what I'm here to do, which is make music. Do you see any of your peers or anyone in the industry? It's funny. I was thinking of Kanye West. I mean, controversial figure. He seems to not give a fuck about he really doesn't i've worked with him yeah yeah he's um and it was inspiring and and that's do you know even with

Kanye he's mad controversial mad it's it's yeah it's a lot but um i guess he's intense for the world, but being in his creative environment was one of the most inspiring I've had. And I wasn't a Kanye fan. I wasn't like, oh, I've listened to all your albums. I know every song. Like I literally was put with Kanye through a manager and they were like, Lab's fucking next hottest artist.

Do you want to work with him? And then I got a yes. and then I went into the camp. So I started working with all these amazing musicians and producers. And it was just like, it feels like what I love, which is hear it, do it. It's got nothing on the periphery that affects the vision of what he's headed for, nothing on the periphery affects the, the, the, the vision of what, what is head, what he's headed for, especially in that environment. Sometimes maybe, I don't know, he personally, when he's at home on his own, um, it's affected, but, but it was just the vibe in

there was just like, it felt like true creativity. Um, but like, I can't say anything about, yeah, like, I don't know what mission he's on like yeah it's funny because I've had Dame Dash here like a week ago and Dame said Jay-Z's all about the money Kanye's all about the art

yeah and that seems to be what's reflected from what you see from the outside yeah that makes sense yeah yeah going back so I asked you a question earlier about your goal

yeah and you said about the Cosmic Orchestra yeah that's a I guess that's a goal is there like a bigger a mission you're on or is it i i think i've simplified my desires and it's like i just

want to be a tap i want to be a tap and sounds very um it sounds very um wispy but like to be a tap for the universe and what i mean by the universe is that i i personally believe that we are all connected to a a source and um if we're all connected to that source everyone has their everyone's a kaleidoscope and when this source shines through our kaleidoscopes you see these unique beautiful things as but but we have to make our kaleidoscope as pure as possible meaning to get out of our own ways to be the kaleidoscope that we're supposed to be and for me I feel like I'm seeing some of your kaleidoscope and and you made a decision to change your world or to change your maybe facade that you had at the time to become who you who you need to be and you clean the window you know and so for me I'm like if I

can clean my window and and shine light as purely as possible and do some shit that I didn't even know I could do for me that's a job well done, honestly, like in all truth. But the only thing that gets in the way is fear, self-doubt and all the stuff that like the industry needing to make money, like needed to be validated gets in the way of like, oh shit, I'm supposed to be cleaning the window. That's what I keep doing. I'll keep going back to like, oh, okay, sorry, I forgot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I clean? So that's keep going back to like, oh, okay, sorry, I forgot.

Can I clean? So that's why I want to do clean windows. It's a really interesting analogy about being your most authentic self. Yeah, that's it for me. But it's easier said than done. We're always saying it online and I want to speak my truth. I'm like, that stuff doesn't mean anything to me. It's just to purely and you know when you're lying to yourself.

The only person that knows you're lying to you is you. And sometimes you don't know when you're lying to yourself if you're not looking properly. But when you look, when you truly look, you're like, okay, I'm lying. And so for me, cleaning the window is knowing when i'm lying and then being like okay cool let's go are we going back to truth yes let's do it i mean much of the reason why you know i've always resonated with your music and i view it as art you know even i was listening to it all again today going through the albums going through some of your new stuff yeah it's because you have that it's it's so clearly comes from it feels like it comes from

a very authentic place yeah like you're not i've not heard these sounds before yeah you know what i mean that's what i get even when i go to when i listen to pass out again there's so many layers to this that like there's some like garagey grimy stuff and then you've got the little afro you know it's all yeah it's all in there yeah yeah and this is that's how i you know when you ask me what happens when i listen back i'm like oh is that how i look it's like you're like oh like because there's self-doubt is so heavy sometimes that you don't even know how you look and it's like somebody could be like you're so beautiful and you're like i'm seeing warts i'm seeing weird shit and then you you your idea of yourself so distorted so when i listen back to old stuff sometimes i'm like it's like music

well done kids i'm like man like it feels feels like you're you've got your own identity and i'm like i i almost end up saying to that 24 year old like i'm like bro i'm proud of you like like that's so fun like i i feel you like and i didn't at the time at the time i was like i don't know what i'm doing you know so it's nice to kind of observe from a distance and be like grandfather going well done well done are you happy now am i happy now um yes i i definitely happy as a father that changes your life massively um so i think um um yeah i think i'm super happy um yeah like i like i i i like to think about that when someone asks me a question because it's easy to just go yeah you how are you

yeah I'm great man yeah and it's a difficult and some people think it's a shitty question because first you've got to define what happy means and happy is a mood

and it's like you know I'm sad happy it's a kind of a visceral mood maybe you should ask me am I content yeah or fulfilled or something yeah yeah I'm content I think with fulfillment

I'm getting there no I fulfillment i'm i'm getting there no i'm i'm i'm cleaning the window all the time so it's like realizing it's returning back to fulfillment if that makes sense if so if that fulfillment was a recipe consisting of different ingredients and different quantities yeah right so you need one egg if you have two eggs the recipe goes off it's all about you know with recipes it's all about balance and constructing the ingredients you need to create the perfect dish if your fulfillment is a recipe list is there anything missing off that that you believe now would make you would make that recipe perfect for me it's been balance it's just workaholic that's kind of like an addiction that i have yes because of early stuff yep same yeah So trying to make sure I'm investing in my romantic relationships,

my friendships. For real. So I can feel more. Same with my kids and my family. Like, yeah, that balance. But fulfillment is, for me, is desiring nothing, contributing everything. That's how I feel.

And maybe the only one desire is to remain present enough to be able to receive from what I'm contributing to does that make sense? perfect sense or else you're not going to be there to hear it

you're going to be in the future I won't even enjoy it I won't even yeah my kid will be smiling at me and I'm like looking over onto their heads like yeah

how do I get more how do i get a trillion views yeah are you got better at that being present to it to experience the joy of life bro it's the best when you're present with your kids it's the best like you learn so much stuff my kids said like she loves the moon and um she asked me does moon stones fall from the moon and i and she said they give me um the moon gives me moon stones all the time and she's like um shall we give them back and i was like i was like no no i think it was given to you as a present but just like hearing stuff like that for me is like it's like magic like it's just hearing a magical mind stay and it's like i'm still uh um appreciating the world in this magical way when when we make it about a trillion views you know like same with my son as well just he

smells flowers and like he he really like he if he sees a flower he points out and he wants to really feel it and connect with it and and enjoy. And then he'll go around giving everyone a flower and saying, smell it for yourself. But seeing that for me is like, he made something that I ignore because I'm just so used to it. It's like super magical. Yeah, beautiful.

And it's, yeah, I was thinking about my dog there as well i how he simplified my life just like i used to say like come i'd come home from like the busy day all these problems and the dog is there just fucking around with this lucas a bottle yeah having the time of his life and he's like fucking chasing dad he's like bringing it close and taking it i'm like you don't understand how simple yeah it's for fact i've over complicated the way he understands how simple and wonderful it is but I've lost sight of that with my

with my wisdom or with my experience we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest they don't know

who they're asking it for they just write it in this diary this guest is handwriting challenged so give me a second my teacher used to call it chicken scratches oh yeah it looks a bit This guest is handwriting challenged. So give me a second. My teacher used to call it chicken scratches.

Oh, it looks a bit like chicken scratches. Okay. What are you not saying yes to in your life that demands to be said? What am I not saying yes to that demands to be said what am i not saying yes to that demands to be said yeah i think i think what they mean is like what are you not saying yes to that demands yes yes yeah yeah um nothing i'm saying yes to all the stuff i want to say yes to right is there anything inside you that's that's asking you to like step into it and accept it that you're not saying yes to okay uh no no okay so if we're going from there um uh um i think accepting what is um and and uh yeah just accepting what is and yeah, just accepting what is

like not getting dragged into what it could be. And when you accept what is, you're like, this is sick. Like you just fall in love with it because you're appreciating it for what it is, you know? So I think it's that constantly remembering that but that's that's a yes for the rest of your life

lab um thank you so much for this conversation thank you for being here i you are a musical genius i respect bro i appreciate that no you are because because i can't really think of artists and that have come out of the uk i've come out fucking hackney that have come out of the UK, I've come out of fucking Hackney, that have the, like the creative diversity that you have. We don't have like the, honestly, the only other person I think of is I'm like Kanye, you know, and I'm a big,

you know, Kanye, yeah, I feel you. Yeah. Well, I believe you could, I believe with that sort of creative palette and the diversity of your

creativity and where you see inspiration in a fucking heel bottle, which is nutritionally complete hashtag ad and the table, um, is really genius. It's a real special genius. And with that comes a lot of challenge as we see with Kanye as well. But, but it's a real special genius that I think, as you say, if the windows can remain clean, bro, that's it for me. It's going to serve the world in a remarkable way as it has done already for you in your life. And you know, the things you've done with movies, the music, and you talk to me about this opera, I see and believe it all.

Come on, I got to come. Yeah. Once I got it somewhere, you've got to come and listen. Please, let me come. And you can be like,

lab, this is the worst music I've ever known. Listen, I'll clean the windows. I don't care. Let me, I'll help you clean the windows so we can get this cosmic orchestra going. Oh i'm down i'm done i would love for you to hear it but um yeah like um that's i'm definitely excited about this i appreciate you so it's an honor to meet you and

i can't wait to see this next project and all the projects that you bring to the bring to the world in the future thank you so much thanks Thanks.