The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Lewis Capaldi: The Untold Story Of Becoming A Global Superstar At 22

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

Lewis Capaldi is one of the biggest singers and musicians in the world today whose last album went 4x platinum. His new single is Forget me and it’s out now. Known for his authentic and honest style, Lewis is unlike any poster that’s come before him. But behind the everyman ‘boy from Glasgow’ persona is a vulnerable side to Lewis. After a 3 year hiatus from music he tells us, for the very first time, he opens up about his struggles with sometimes crippling anxiety, how he ‘hates recording albums’, and the intense pressure he puts himself under that drives everything he does. This conversation is a hell of a ride. Expect what you thought you knew about Lewis to be turned upside down. But in the process of listening to this conversation with the pop star whose persona is that he has nothing to hide, you’ll see just how much he’s been holding back all this time. Follow Lewis: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lewiscapaldi Lewis’ new album: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4GNC7GD6oZMSxPGyXy4MNB?autoplay=true Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in times square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all

of you that listen to this show let's continue no one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me the questions that you've asked me today. Releasing new music first time in like three years. This time I'm shitting myself. Why? I remember that video of you doing your... You found out your net worth. Oh yeah. That's ten fucking million quid sitting about somewhere, where the fuck is it?

No label would ever tell you that is the strategy to become successful. You can fully just put a picture of you with a towel wrapped around your head and these stupid glasses on where you're top of on a big massive poster on the tube. It's less about being like a polished fucking pop star or whatever. People see through that shit. You are living an extraordinarily unhuman life. What is the reality? I have really bad anxiety.

It never reached a tipping point until after getting famous. I fucking hate recording albums. I despise doing music videos. I only do all that stuff because playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that you can't compare it to anything else. So when that was making me feel shy, I was like, fuck fuck i don't know if i can do any of this shit anymore my dad gave me a lift home from the airport one night and i was twitching like fuck to the point where he started crying in the car i couldn't concentrate on work i was doing because i was

so convinced that i was going to die what is the question that no one asks you that would reveal the most untapped answer? I think... Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Lewis. Hello. Lewis hello when you look back and I was reading about your childhood I found it really fascinating when you look back at those um early early early dots that you I think sometimes in hindsight we can connect and go ah that was a reason I became the person I am today or that was a really significant early moment what were those first early dots that you connect and go that's why I ended up where I am today um I think for me it's probably the first one I can remember

is like being I remember just being on holiday in France we used to go on these mad like caravan holidays in France me and my mum and my dad and my

two older brothers and my older sister and eh there was like I don't know for some reason I had become obsessed with Queen

I must have been like four years old erm but like we got like a CD in the like one of the you know I remember those free CD newspapers like oh yeah yeah yeah where you would pull out stuff so we got like a CD and the, like one of those free CD newspapers

like where you would pull out stuff. So we got that and it had like We Will Rock You by Queen on it and it had We Are The Champions

as well and I remember like just I became obsessed with it and I was like listening all the way through down to where we were going so we drove from Scotland

to France so it was like I just remember listening to that constantly on repeat and then being, I don't know if I'd ever showed an interest in singing prior to this or being a singer or anything like that but I remember we were at like one of those like like a band was playing it was like a karaoke thing like one of the family entertainment nights

or whatever and for some reason I just like asked if I could go up and sing We Will Rock You by Queen and it was glad and I went up and I did it and there's a picture of me doing it like I'm tiny and I've got this microphone and it's so I did it and then I think I got a buzz for it or whatever and for whatever reason I asked if I could go back up and do another song and I did another song and it was like for me that's the first kind of memory of like this like singing and getting a buzz for like oh I'm up here and I'm doing this thing in front of people it's like again I have no other memory of like singing prior to that but this was like just the first time I'd ever like got up in front of people and sang and been like oh this is like a a wee bit of a buzz like even at four do you know i mean which is mad to think now but like um yeah i don't know what sort of possessed me to get up and do it but

it was so that must have been fucking i don't know like i was been like 2000 or something maybe that happened um but yeah i still don't i still can't like put my finger on why I did it or what the reason was for getting up on it but you're four years old four years old yeah yeah it was a strange one

and it was like a like a party or something it was like a like you go on these fucking it's kind of like these kind of package holidays that you go on with your family

and they have like kids clubs and they have like entertainment nights so it's like everyone kind of congregates in this theatre kind of bit in the middle and it's like they have a band on and they have like entertainment nights so it's like everyone kind of congregates in this theatre kind of

bit in the middle and it's like they have a band on and they have like I don't know fucking puppet show or some shit I don't know

I can't really remember I haven't been back since I don't often hang around they didn't book me back but but yeah so then it was like

yeah it was just that that was the first time we did it. And it was, yeah, I can't. I can't put my finger on why. What were you like at that age, at that sort of under 10 age in terms of confidence? Because to say, do you know what, I want to go up on stage

and sing in a group in front of strangers seems like quite an abnormal thing for a child to volunteer to do. Totally. I think prior to being like 10 and prior to like I don't know yeah prior to going to high school or whatever and that maybe not even like that but like when I was younger I was definitely quite like outgoing I'd say like I was quite I remember I watched um when I was like five, I watched Austin Powers. I was religiously watching Austin Powers. I don't know why my parents allowed me to do that, but I would go to family parties and be asked to recite,

I'm a fat bastard, Austin Powers, the big fat guy that he plays. I'd be asked to recite parts of his thing and I would do it in front of everybody and all the rest of it. But it was never like, like again it was never singing it was just like acting the goat and like take the piss and yeah like I would get up and do recite all these fat bastard bits and fucking um so yeah I was definitely like more I was definitely like a an outgoing kid, I think. I definitely like to be, I was probably loud

and I kind of like to be like, I guess I kind of like people. The feedback. Yeah, I like feedback. I like people watching me do things. I like seeing people enjoying something that I was doing. Do you know why? I don't know.

It's a strange one because I never, I guess I never put much thought into it when I was five or whatever, but I don't know. It's a strange one. Because I never, I guess I never put much thought into it when I was five or whatever. But I don't know if it's like, I don't know if maybe like making my parents laugh or something made me feel like, oh, that's a buzz or whatever. Or like, I don't know, yeah. I've sat here with quite a lot of comedians, you know.

Jimmy Carr, Russell Kane, Russell Howard. And that's been one of the really fascinating things for me is like trying to find out why at a young age, they got a real buzz from performing and making people laugh. And actually, I think it was Jimmy Carr that said something to me. He said, instead of, you know,

because there's this kind of stereotype that you do that because you're depressed and you're trying to, I don't know. But Jimmy Carr said to me, when you see that behavior in a comedian, don't ask them if you're depressed and you're trying to i don't know but jimmy carl said to me when when you see that behavior in a comedian don't ask them if they're depressed ask them which one of their parents were they trying to cheer up all right wow interesting yeah that's that's interesting i don't know my parents when when i was i went to a therapist a couple of years ago who had said, my mum's mum died when I was three of, like, cancer. Not like cancer.

It was cancer. But... So she... And then a year after, her aunt, like, committed suicide, who was... Sorry, my mum's sister, my aunt, committed suicide. So my mum lost her mum and her sister in like, within a year of each other.

So I don't know if maybe that's like, I'm quite like a hypochondriac and I'm kind of like, I always think I'm out of dying. And when I was younger, my mum used to talk to me and I used to always be like, have you locked the doors? Like even when I was like four or five or whatever. And a therapist told me that was kind of like

that might be because of like being exposed to the fact that people are gone like people disappear people aren't like

I was aware of what death was at a young age so I don't know if maybe that's like having seen like that sort of like that sort of like profound sadness in my mum

when she's like lost her mum and lost her sister I don't know if maybe that's Was it profound sadness that my mum when she's like lost her mum and lost her sister I don't know maybe that's Was it profound sadness that you saw? Oh for sure

like I mean it's obviously I mean I can't imagine losing my mum at this I mean I'm 25 my mum would have been 34

when she lost her mum so yeah for sure like I still I have like vivid memories like going into my mum's room and she was crying in bed.

I think this might have been when my aunt died. But her crying in bed and talking about, like, and then being, like, having to tell me, like, your aunt had passed away or whatever. Or, like, I just didn't, I wasn't fully aware of what was going on, but I just saw her so, like, heartbroken and so, yeah, so distraught that this happened so I don't know

if maybe that's it's an interesting thought of like I don't know if maybe that's fed into it and like me doing anything I could to like

either chill him up or distract him or whatever I don't know but yeah it's an interesting thought How old were you when that happened?

I was three when my gran died and three and three quarters when my aunt committed suicide. So I was young, for sure. It's really, I don't think people realise how much kids can feel the pain of their parents. I had an incident with my sister-in-law and her and my niece,

where my, probably the instance that taught me this lesson, where my sister-in-law was crying um was upset about something and i just looked down at my niece and my niece is glued up at her and my niece explodes in tears as well yeah that kind of relationship we have like of intuitively knowing if our parents are feeling something of course i think that yeah i think it is the people kids do i mean it's a thing now where people are kind of talking about more kids see a lot more. I actually watched that Joe Wicks documentary a few weeks ago

where he was talking about his parents' addictions and things. And he says, like, yeah, kids see so much more and are aware of so much more than we actually know. And I totally agree. Because even now, if I'm at a funeral, it could be for someone I have never met in my life, but my mum knew them. If I turn around and my mum's crying, I'll start crying.

Yeah. So it's like something that's like obviously learnt like you see your mum crying it's this it's one of the worst things you can possibly see your mum or your dad or any of your brothers sisters in pain or crying or like um really going through something and I think uh yeah it's something that just does even now it sticks with with you. And Fizz, I read this study about these monkeys, these rhesus monkeys, and it showed that if the mother rhesus monkey had a phobia of spiders, then all of the babies would be scared whenever they saw a spider. And that kind of showed you, you're talking about hypochondria there.

You're talking about like using your parents as a steer as to what is dangerous, what is sad, you know, all those things. Do you think that you're, you said you had like a hypochondria? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Do you think that came from your mother's caution? I think, it's not necessarily my mother's caution. My mum's actually, my mum's a nurse, so she's not like, she is like the least, like if I phone her and I say,

mum, I've got a headache, I'm dizzy, I think I've got like a tumor or something she'll be like shut the fuck up you're fine like listen take some paracetamol go to sleep you'll be grand I'll see you later my dad is a very I the older I get the more I understand that my dad I get all my anxieties and things from my dad my dad's like a warrior for sure and he and he he's a catastrophizer as well like his mind goes to like yeah the other day he went um to chat he went to my brother's house chat from the door my brother never answered my brother was in the shower and uh my dad had convinced himself there was a gas leak in the house and my brother like

an immediate jump like no no like like stepping ladder to that it was chat with door no answer chat with door again right gas leak something's wrong banging the door my brother comes out and I tell him he's like what the fuck are you doing this is like mental and my dad's but that's like I mean it comes from like an amazing place but it's something that he just has in his mind and I think he's a hypochondriac as well and he kind of has

yeah I think I've learned that from him in the sense that he's a he's a warrior in that sense but I do think that because I never thought about the my aunt and

grandmother passing away as like a a big thing in my childhood I just which is now when I say that out loud, it sounds mental because when I'm like, oh, it wasn't a big thing or whatever, but like,

so I think it's probably that, like that sort of like awareness of death and awareness that you're not around forever and your parents, like, because then immediately I'm like, oh, my mom's passing away. Like my mom will probably, like like do you know what I mean that's immediately in your head as a kid so I can't remember

why I got onto asking her about like locking the door when I was a kid and she was have you locked the door

I don't understand and I still don't remember how that became a thing but yeah no so I think I definitely get a lot of my hypochondria and my worry

and my anxiety from my father and my my mother's quite quite calm cool and collected if I'm the older I get

the more I'm I'm realising that do you know what I mean but yeah I sat here with a guy called Jack Jack mate

he's called and he talked about health anxiety and OCD and he really opened up about it and I you know people use these terms flippantly they say I've got OCD I've got I'm sorry I'm a hypochondriac and they use them so flippantly to describe like the tiniest little yeah something's

not neat I've got OCD or uh you know you you might find a lump and go oh it's you know jokingly say it's this and then someone will flippantly say oh you're a hypochondriac yeah but the reality of being a hypochondriac or OCD is as Jack taught me is very very different totally 100% what is the reality so I think so that I've got I have really bad anxiety and like anyway but which I never really I'd never reached a tipping point until after like getting famous I never had a panic attack until after I was famous or after I was a musician or after this was like after it got to like a height um but the hypochondria I get I guess like looking back now I'm like oh I was like such an anxious kid but then because now I understand it a lot more and I've got a therapy and I speak about it with people and I'm trying to learn a bit more about it

I kind of look back at things I did and realised that the behaviour was the result of anxiety but that hypochondria thing was probably where

it all started and it was like I would be like I'd be walking around school like moping and fucking like sort of like

blinkered blinkered view on everything and I was just like couldn't concentrate on work I was doing because I was so convinced that I was going to die and that I had this fucking horrible disease

and that that yeah that I was going to be over and I was going to have to go to hospital I was going to pass out or have a seizure I've never done none of that has ever happened to me

I've touch wood never been in hospital for anything serious I've never broken a bone I've never done none of that has ever happened to me I've I've touched wood never been in hospital for anything serious I've never broken a bone I've never had any major I never had a surgery I've never had any major illnesses or anything like that um I've at school when I was in primary school I never missed a day off I never had a day off I was always never had I was never ill secondary school I was off ill once like so it wasn't like it wasn't like

I had cause for any of this it was just like in my head just thinking and I think maybe that's a thing as well of like I don't know if that maybe never actually being ill

I didn't know what being really ill felt like so my mind would maybe conjure something up in that respect. But yeah, no, at the school it just became, sometimes it could become like just really like, again, at the time I didn't understand it. And the symptoms of that anxiety, like being dizzy and fucking,

I used to kind of always go like, I used to take big deep breaths like that all the time and I used to make this noise which I still make when I go like, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. And it's like, so basically now looking back,

I realise that's all anxiety and I actually got diagnosed with Tourette's like two months ago or something like that, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was, to me, when they said it I was like oh that kind of makes

fucking sense because I always thought Tourette's like fucking swearing on that I never realised it could just be like tics

bodily thingies but so I kind of yeah as I say looking back I now realise it was all anxiety but

if I thought I had a brain tumour and I was like and I was like worrying about it so much and getting anxious that I was dizzy that would then

feed back into the oh I've got a brain tumour because I'm dizzy all the time why else would I be dizzy do you know what I mean I even got so bad a couple of years ago that I paid

I went and paid for an MRI scan cancelled I was meant to play Austin City Limits Festival in Austin and I just had to cancel the trip

because my anxiety about, I think there's something seriously wrong with me, had got so bad that I was like, I can't get on a plane and go to Austin and be away from home. I need to go get an MRI scan or I need to fucking really see what it's all about. So I went and got it

and obviously there was nothing in my head. That was fine. And no one can talk you out of those. When you're in that moment, call your mum, you call your friends, you tell people, no one can talk you out of it when you're in that moment call your mum you call your friends you tell people no one can talk you out of it I can do it now because I've like done therapies

and I've kind of been able to sort of understand my own anxiety and stuff a bit more like that has made it easier for me to kind of talk myself out of

these kind of situations these kind of holes that I can dig myself in my head my mum's also very good at it my dad's absolutely useless because

because he's fucking like he's anxious himself he's right now he's like exactly he's just like fucking he's mental

but so my mum yeah she's she's really good like if I'm having if I'm having a panic attack my mum has to like

there's nobody else that can talk me out of it but my mum for sure, definitely by the way, my mum has had to sleep in my bed as recently as a month ago because of how bad my anxiety got at one point

but I think that was alcohol related, I had been on a bit of a bend the couple of days before but like it gets to a point where I'm like I can't I just can't fucking

I can't envision like I can't like I can't imagine it not being

something like life-threatening or like super serious because of how fucking like sometimes like things don't feel real

someone will say something to me and I won't understand what they're saying like it's fucking it gets like proper proper intense but yeah that's kind of

the hypochondria as I've got older is lessened it's only when I start to have a panic attack or like I start to get really anxious that I'll go right that's I think so I'm dizzy that's probably anxiety you're fine and there's

a voice in the back of my head that goes but what if it isn't what if I set me the wrong way what if you're about to pass out and then in some situations I just I get my head tells me like oh you're about to have a panic attack you're're going to have, like, and that is enough. Like, that's enough hypochondria. Like, it's mad. So it is,

it's still something like ongoing, like that I deal with. But, it's definitely getting better. I've started taking like, my medication for it. I've seen a therapist more regularly. Again, the Tourette's thing was like a good sort of,

it was kind of nice to hear, because I started doing this, my head twitched from my shoulder. It's actually okay today, but that became so like bad that I was like, this has to be fucking something serious, like motor neurone disease,

Google and all that shit. And like, again, just the wheels starting turning and all that shit and like again just the wheels starting turning and all the rest of it so that finding out the Tourette's thing was like a nice

sort of like oh that's okay that's cool because I don't mind like I don't I never really think that like I have like a mental illness or anything

I just think sometimes I get really anxious and it's fine do you know what I mean it's like it's just one of those things but I don't see it as like this big thing

I'm quite like I'll talk to anybody about it if I'm having a panic attack in a room I'll be like I'm having a panic attack by the way so just do with that information

what you will and you've said that on stage before yeah yeah I've done it on stage I've had a couple of panic attacks on stage we actually we played

in we did an arena tour in March 2020 like right up and like just before Covid kicked off and I don't know it was like obviously it was like basically it was kind of the culmination of this album campaign that we had done for the last record and things were great and it was like we played Australia and did some amazing shows in Australia in January Europe in February and then March was come back like kind of nice sort of fucking victory lap look what we've done this is great arenas can't believe we're doing this in first album amazing it was the worst two weeks of my life that was fucking shit I hated every minute of it like if you look at videos of me on stage, I'm doing this twitch that was so bad that it was just,

like, I couldn't speak between songs. I couldn't, I had to stop songs and start them over again. I saw lots of tweets being like, one tweet in particular that was like, oh, Lewis was fully on cocaine, like, fucking, like, twitching, fucking, all that shit. And then obviously I'm like, oh, no, people think I fully on cocaine like fucking like twitching fucking all that shit and then obviously I'm like oh no people think I'm on cocaine

that feeds into my thingy do you know what I mean I don't it was fucking it was fucking horrible and I think I played

the first two shows were in Glasgow they were like the first two arena gigs were in Glasgow and I remember walking out and it was like a kind of big

Coliseum thing at the Hydro in Glasgow and it's like I remember walking out into the middle of the arena empty arena with my mum, my dad, my sister

and looking around at me like oh fuck this is like it was just I think things had got to a point where they were bigger than like I was seeing

how big it had gotten like do you know what I mean it was the first time I had because the way it worked was my it had gotten like do you know what I mean it was the first time I'd because the way it worked was my songs had gotten we were kind of always playing catch up with ourselves in terms of the size of venues we were doing

so like when we could have done 2000 cat rooms we were doing 1000 cat rooms and then like so on and so forth so it became like it was kind of nice because I was like oh oh, this is great. Like songs flying,

like the next song's done really well as well. Like we're playing these nice rooms, the crowds are mental, this is class. And I think, yeah, the arena was like, the arena shows were like,

oh fuck, this is real. This is huge. There's a difference between 2000, because that's another thing I've got a bit of an issue with, especially in the UK. It's really hard to go from 2,000 capacity rooms

to 16,000 capacity rooms. It's like, there's very rarely in between. I mean, in Alipay you can do like 10, you can do like five in places, but it was just like, fucking hell, this is like a big jump. And then that thing of like disappointing people really came into it.

And then just like I don't mind support being a support act I always love because if I'm shite no one gives a fuck because it's like who cares

who is this guy like do you know what I mean we did supported Sam Smith on tour and like they were really gracious and had us on and uh

but everyone's there to see Sam no one's there to see me like do you know what I mean so if I go out and have a shite gig it's like Grant I one's there to see me do you know what I mean so if I go out and have a shit gig it's like Grant I'm fucking off

this is great do you know what I mean but when it's like people have bought a ticket to see you it's not a festival where there's loads of other people on

they're there to see you it just became quite it was quite an intense How old were you then when you walked out with your family into that gig and you looked up

at the stadium 23 23 years old it was yeah it was intense I think it's because as well like your family into that gig and you looked up at the stadium? 23. You're 23? 23 years old. It was, yeah, it was intense. I think it's because as well,

like, I just maybe, I think in my head, I was like, oh, you can't. I've got a bit, I've got really bad,

like, and everybody I speak to who's done well at this, like, imposter syndrome thing where it's like, I don't deserve to be doing this, what the fuck, like,

why am I fucking up here doing this what the fuck like why am I fucking up here doing this I feel like a fucking absolute like I don't know just like a fucking I shouldn't I shouldn't be in this position

and I've always had it and it's like we do the self-deprecating patter like on fucking interviews and stuff which I do love it's like

take the piss but like the imposter stuff I had never been more insecure and unsure of myself than after I did really well that's so interesting because I've had that before yeah yeah like like even now like going back to write new music after we've done these fucking shows it's like I thought I was going to go in and be like, right, I've had a couple of hits. Relax, guys.

Here we go. This is going to be lovely. Easy peasy. I was fucking second guessing myself all the time. I was like, I would start writing a song and then immediately, no, that's shite. Like, just constantly, like, self sort of like, like, just fucking just, that's shite, that's shite,

that's shite. Like, looking at what we, ah, that's shite, that's shite, nah, that's shite, like, looking at what we did before, obviously COVID happened, you have all this time to kind of like, look back on everything you did, and you go, oh,

for fuck's sake, that was, kind of got away from us a bit there, the song, one of the songs went number one in America, and I was like, there's no way I can do that again, that just seems like such a,

such a fucking such a fucking climb and something that I'm just not capable of I don't it feels like someone else did it

do you know what I mean and now I'm like now I'm lumped you're comparing yourself to that person yeah yeah I'm like lumped it's like we were saying

before like that thing of like even now coming on to do interviews and stuff it's like fuck I don't know if i can do any of this shit anymore because it's been it's been fucking easy it's been like three years do you know who sat here before you was was bear grills and bear grill said to me he said the more successful i've i've become the lower my confidence has become because bear grills now is he's when you like if your mate eats something

crazy or does something crazy you go who do you think you are Bear Grylls he's actually become synonymous with the word so his identity is this like extreme you know whatever and he's now

looking up at his own identity going how the hell am I ever going to be Bear Grylls and it was crazy to hear him say like his confidence is at like pretty much an all time low

because of his success because he's competing with his own accomplishments which is totally not an easy place to be 100% and I have to agree with that I feel like as well it's such a weird position to be in because you walk into a room like and it's people like this sounds wanky as fuck but like I have to I have to assume in some regard that people around my age have at least heard about me in passing and I always just assume

when I go in a room I just assume people in that room don't like me like that's just my don't like you that's my like default position of like

I don't know why I don't know why it is but I just like it's just something I always have and I always like if I go to a pub and like I walk in a pub like I just like it's just something I always have and I always like if I go to a pub and like

I walk in a pub like I'm like oh fuck people probably like walking up to the bar or like if someone comes up

and says hello and I'm speaking to them and I take a picture with them I think oh everyone else in this pub I don't know it's like I don't know if it's like

when did that start maybe like towards the end of 2019, probably. And don't get me wrong, being famous is fun. It's great. Do you know what I mean? Why do you think they're not going to like you?

I don't know. It's just like, I don't know. I just assume that they've probably seen something online, like a video I've done or an interview I've done or they've heard the songs and they think, oh, his music's shite. Or they've seen an interview and they think oh I fucking hate that kind of stand-up

yeah I don't know I just always assume that people have got this I don't know this view of me that they maybe don't like I don't know again I couldn't really put my finger on it why like I don't hate myself like I think I'm alright do you know what I mean but I think it's just I don't know if't I don't hate myself like I think I'm alright like do you know what I mean but I think

it's just I don't know I don't know if maybe that thing of like being like in pub in the public eye like you're so fucking exposed

to like all this shit and it's like yeah it's just a bit it's a bit of a I don't know it's a bit of a it's a bit of a

you walk into a room and you feel like oh fuck this is do you feel like it because because i'm on because i've started doing dragons den now so the podcast was like you know big people knew it before but there's this whole new demographic yeah now this bbc one demographic where if i'm in the airport i'm if someone just glances at me i assume are they you're gonna come over and say something or whatever so you kind of live with this constant paranoia. You're kind of like, all the time. And you're like,

can I just keep my headphones on? And I don't, I look at the fucking floor. I'm like, do you get? A hundred percent. And it's like that, like that sort of like,

yeah, that paranoia is like squeezed in. And don't get me wrong, I love when people come up and I love taking pictures of people. I love speaking to people and hearing people's stories about how they love the music

or like even, I get a lot of people who go, oh, I think your music's shite, but I think you're people and hearing people's stories about how they love the music or like even I get a lot of people who go oh I think your music's shite but I think they're funny and all that stuff and I'll accept that as well that's fine cool

but is it cool? yeah I think it's fine you can't my music's not going to be for everybody I'm fully aware of that my personality's definitely

not going to be for everybody I'm fully aware of that I think the fact that people come up I like the fact that people feel up I like the fact that people feel that they can say that to me and I won't take offence you've kind of invited that though

haven't you yeah yeah because that's how I am like I'm you would really really have to say something horrible but I don't know what you could say to me

that I would take offence I'm very like I don't know if it's my upbringing in Scotland or just being Scottish or whatever like the like I don't take offence to things

really I've seen some fucking pretty ridiculous things written about me online and on Twitter and all the rest of it that really does not like You say you're very self-deprecating Yeah, of course Why?

I just think it's funny I think, but again I think that's a very Scottish thing and that's a very like we kind of all well when I grew up everyone just took the piss out of each other it's quite I don't know it's quite a bad thing not a bad thing it's called you never feel you never want to get ideas above your station like you never even when I was starting out music I just always I never thought we'd get to get ideas above your station like you never even when I was starting out in music I just always I never thought

we'd get to this point or that things would get to this point because I just always thought oh that we just that just doesn't it's maybe a bad thing as well because it maybe stops a lot of people from

going to achieve things or trying to reach for stuff like I've said before like if I hadn't met my manager and my label and stuff I would still be in pubs just playing tunes at the weekend and all the rest of it it's not like or I'd be playing manager and my label and stuff I would still be in pubs just playing tunes at the weekend

and all the rest of it it's not like or I'd be playing weddings and stuff like that because I would just not assume that this was on the cards but I think yeah I think there's something nice

in don't get me wrong around my friends I'm slagging them off like nothing else and they're doing the same to me and it's like you kind of figure out

like what your flaws are by the way your friends the stuff your friends pick out and don't get me wrong like on tour we say some fucking horrific stuff to each other and we take the piss out of each other

and it's all fine because we love each other and it's grand but like I think in general if I can it feels better to make people laugh

like at me than other people like I would rather make someone laugh at me than grab somebody else and take the piss out of them before is there not is there not a harm in that in self-deprecation like because I I've heard some of the things you said you know you said I mean I know they're jokes but you said things like people women find me equally repulsive in Australia and wherever there's, you take a shot at yourself.

And I do want it, because if one of my good friends was always self-deprecating, I would tell them to stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I would be worried that, that those words might knock their own confidence or. It's the thing,

it's like, you don't talk, like, be nice to yourself. Like, that's the thing of like, I think, if you're talking like, if you had like a child, would you want someone to say the things to your child that's the thing of like I think if you're talking like

if you had like a child would you want someone to say the things to your child that you say about yourself I get that completely and I understand that

but I don't like self-deprecate constantly in my private life do you know what I mean I don't like yeah it's something that

has become kind of synonymous with me doing interviews and all the rest of it. And I do do it a lot in my private life, but it's not like a constant every sentence, like kind of how it is on interviews and things like that. Do you think it's kind of self-defense in a way?

It could be, yeah. I think as well, yeah. Like my first album was called Divinely Uninspired to a Hellish Extent, which is like kind of getting, saying my album's shite before, critic can say my album's shite. I think it's like, it's nice to take the power away from people

because it's like, oh, I fucking said it first. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I think it's quite a, it is good. It is good. It takes the power away from other people,

I think, in that regard. So I do think there's probably something in that but the way the way I see it I don't really feel like it's dragging me

like for example the stuff I say to myself in my head when I'm hungover that is like damaging stuff like that sort of thing of like when you're

hungover and you're like kind of just that self-loathing and that sort of like that's the stuff that if I said to myself all the time I'd be like whoa you need to fucking like chill out if it's like jovial and it's never stuff that like I can't change do you know I mean it's not like things like that I'm like if I'm calling myself chubby that's not like my I can't I can do

something about that like I mean I'm like not do you know I mean so it's not like my i can't i can do something about that like do you mean i'm true i'm like not do you know what i mean so it's something like um like that there is an aspect as well like you kind of people you get to a point and doing interviews like especially radio season that we do just say the same thing over and over again so as it's the same in that regard of like people say a lot like you're very self-deprecating it's like well yes but these are i'm gonna ask the same questions everywhere i go so i'm just kind of like re say it a lot like you're very self-deprecating and it's like well yes but these are I'm getting asked the same questions

everywhere I go so I'm just kind of like rewording a lot of this self-deprecating pattern and the rest of it so yeah I mean

I don't think second time around it's going to be quite like I don't know how it's going to play out that's what I'm saying about like turning it on again

and all the rest of it like it's just that's it's going to be interesting to see like how things play out this time around because it's going to play out that's what I'm saying about like turning it on again and all the rest of it like it's just that's it's going to be interesting to see like how things play out this time around because it's like

yeah I'm not just going to come out and say the same stuff how do you how do you feel about the second time around erm give me the full range of emotions so this is your second

kind of yeah releasing new music first time in like three years first time was just a smash mega ultra hit

yeah some might call it that yeah um and um fucking crazy yeah it's wild it's wild so this time i'm shitting myself but this is the problem i think the nature of the music industry it's a big problem with i mean it's got so much better and i've had a lot of support from everyone around me no one forces me to do anything no one really we were able this is like almost unheard of

but like we were able to go away and make new music and bring it to the label and be like this is the new music that we're going to put out and they said great thank you

we will now do our job with this so it's like a lot of people have like there'll be an A&R who's quite oh no you should change this change this and that we were given like the first album I signed the album

free reign to kind of go do what I wanted to do people have always checked up on us but I think in the music industry and then well maybe any industry

it's like you get a number one single and immediately it turns to ah yeah but can I do it again yeah and then you do it again

and then it's immediately like ah but how's the album doing and it's like how are the tickets doing there's always something else the goalposts always fucking changing

so it's this constant sort of like state of fuck fuck fuck I need to like right it's like that thing I've like

I mean it's so it's spoken about to death but like that thing of not being able to sit back and enjoy it because you're always on the move to the next thing and not being able to sit back and enjoy it because you're always on the move to the next thing

and on the move to the next thing and I think that's why during lockdown I really struggled as well because it was like on the next thing on the next thing and there is no next thing now

because we're all on Covid and all that shit and it's like what do you do now and then you just have all this pent up fucking How was that? Exactly

It was it was intense for sure because do you know what when we first got announced well when COVID first got announced as if it's a fucking album

but coming this summer but I think when COVID first got like kind of when the lockdowns first were announced we were all fucking

thingied I was a bit like I was meant to go on tour to an America to support Niall Horan but having had just had the fucking horrible experience I had over the two weeks I was in a position where I was like I don't bit like I was meant to go on tour to an America to support Niall Horan but having had just had the fucking horrible experience I had over the two weeks

I was in a position where I was like I don't know if I can perform live anymore without having a panic attack it was that bad that every single night I had a panic attack

I was twitching it was fucking horrible people who I knew would be watching the gigs and they would come back after and be like that wasn't we didn't enjoy

watching that gig that was really fucking hard for us to see you in that position. Did you ever, in those moments, question what you were doing? Yeah, for sure.

But I questioned what I was doing a lot in lockdown as well, like, honestly, it kind of started there, it's like, fuck, if this is making me feel this bad,

and it was fucking so heartbreaking as well, because, sorry, I keep hitting this mic, but I was so heartbroken about it, because playing live was the, the the best bit of music like i fucking hate recording albums it's stressful it's a pain in the ass at promo i kind of i get into a point where i quite like it and it's kind of like fun but it's not like why i get into it i fucking despise doing music videos

i hate doing photo shoots hate getting my photo taken I only do all that stuff the only reason I started writing songs was because I thought okay if I like people who I was watching like bands like Green Day or fucking

I was at Monkeys I was like oh they write their own songs so if I want to play live I have to write my own songs the so like the only reason I do

any of this other shit or put up with any of this other shit is because playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that you can't compare it to anything else. Takes you back to being four at that karaoke gig, right? Totally, 100%. And it's that same buzz every single fucking time.

Like, do you know what I mean? I mean, unless you have a fucking shit gig, then it's terrible. And then you're depressed for, like, three weeks. But, yeah, that buzz is just unbelievable. So, like, when that was making me feel shit, And then you're depressed for like three weeks. But yeah, that buzz is just unbelievable. So like when that was making me feel shy, I was a bit like, well, this is fucking horrific.

And I was like, I don't know how, if this is making me feel this bad, why continue to do it? And then at times making new music and stuff, I was like, when I would get really down on myself, I'd be like, fuck, is this actually worth it? The rest of it. I never actually got to a point where I was like when I would get really down on myself I'd be like fuck is this actually worth it the rest of it I never actually got to a point where I was like oh I'm gonna quit

or like I don't think it was ever something that was seriously on my mind because I've literally never done anything else and I would be fucking useless at anything else

I'm a lazy cunt like seriously and I know that sounds like I'm being self-deprecating I am I am just aware of that as a genuine flaw

that I am I'm trying to take that as a a genuine flaw that I am I'm trying to take the steps to correct I'm honestly I am so fucking I'm so bad for just like

see like just sitting on TikTok and fucking scrolling through and that and it's and I think as well getting to the position I got in off the first album

I was like fuck now I can like really fucking be lazy like now I can turn this shit fucking right up it was wild so like at points I was like fuck now I can like really fucking be lazy like now I can turn this shit fucking right up it was wild so like

at points I was just like fuck did I just do this and that but I think for the most part I was never seriously considering like stopping

like completely but it was definitely something that and my mum and dad had raised it raised it to me my whole family and friends it's like

if this is making you feel that bad especially when my Tourette's thing was really bad and we never knew what it was my dad gave me a lift I left home from the airport one night

after I'd been in London for a week and I was twitching like fuck to the point where he started crying in the car because he was like this is like again we never knew it was Tourette's at this point

he was like this is fucking like so like mad he thought I was having like a seizure next time in the car and the rest of it it was mad

so like they were obviously concerned and they're like why just stop don't do this if it's making you feel this shit you never had any of this

anxiety or anything before this all took off but then again when I went to therapy I was like oh I actually did

but this kind of just tipped it over the edge maybe when it became like panic attacks and stuff like that the live thing was really was really a big thing we went and played um the grand prix in abu dhabi in december of last year um just like i said and i was really worried about that and then we came we went on stage and i never did i never had any of those issues like i didn't twitch i didn't have a panic attack,

whatever. And I came off and I was in the toilet and I was like, I could have fucking burst at the heels because I was like, oh, thank fuck,

I can actually do this still and not be fucking twitching and not be fucking terrified and not all this shit. Do you know what I mean? So, so that was like a big, a big thing.

But yeah, over lockdown and stuff, I definitely thought, initially when it happened, it was such a relief because I was like oh thank fuck I don't have to go away and do this tour

and then go and do festivals because it was like it kind of gave me a moment to kind of address it and I know now saying that obviously COVID did and all the stuff that happened

and people lost jobs and all the rest of it that feels like a like a selfish thing to say but at the same time it's like like I don't know how long

how much longer I could have kept up having a panic attack every single fucking night on stage and just like because it was it was like fucking

it was like it was suffering for sure and yeah it just wasn't it wasn't fun but again it was like I would come off stage

and I'd be absolutely and then I'd be like oh I'm not having this panic attack it got to a point when I was having panic attacks because I was anticipating having a panic attack

so do you know what I mean so when you get into that cycle I think you're in real trouble because it's like if you go looking for something you're going to fucking find it do you know what I mean you talk about

how therapy helped that's really inspiring to hear because a lot of the time, honestly, when I sit here with people who are in that phase of their life or have been through that, they didn't seek out help

until much, much later in life. Until, you know, much, much later after their career. And it's also, I have to say, it's so important and nice to hear your honesty about that because I think we all, I think therapy is something that we should probably all consider if we have the means to do it

because it's sometimes not like whack-a-mole of seeing a symptom but a preventative measure as well. 100%. You can't wait until things are at their worst to do something about it. It has to be something that you continue to fucking, continue to work at, like, do something about it. It has to be something that you continue to fucking, continue to work at. Like, do you know what I mean?

It's just, I think people wait until it's like fucking like the worst, rock bottom. If you take the steps prior to rock bottom, you might not have to reach that. Do you know what I mean? How has it helped you? And what has it taught you? Because, you know.

I've had a few, so I've had a few, I've tried a few different therapists and that's the thing as well now it's like you kind of go to like different people

and you kind of walk out I think a lot of people might go to a therapist and go oh that doesn't work for me but you have to kind of find the person yeah exactly

exactly so you have to find the person who's right for you and I'm still like I'm still like I've just started with a new like I'm still like trying to find the right person. But like, I think, um, it's just, for me, it was all about like

understand, like the first one I did was like CBT therapy for my anxiety. And I was like, it was just about understanding what anxiety is and why I'm having these and what, like looking out for triggers and things like that. It was, it was very much about, because at the start when it's not, when you're just having panic attacks, you're like, oh, what the fuck is going on? This is mental. Like, why am I feeling this? And then every sort of feeling you get when you have a panic attack

spurs it on even more and it becomes this big fucking massive thing. And I think when I went to CBT therapy and she was like, have you felt like this? Have you felt like this? Have you felt like this? And I was like, oh yeah, all that shit. And she's like, you felt like this have you felt like this and i was like oh yeah all that shit and she's like oh that's anxiety and then i remember i used to the this passing out and seizure thing became a big thing as well when i was having panic attacks and she was like right well what happens if you go if you have a seizure and i goes uh i don't know probably

go to hospital and she goes all right so you're in hospital what's the best place for you to be if you feel the seizures she was like i was like're in hospital what's the best place for you to be and she was like I was like oh probably hospital and she was like right cool so what happens if you pass out

and I goes oh I'll probably wake up and I don't know I'll probably go to hospital and she's like alright what's the best place for you to be so it's like

that's like fucking thing I was just like really talking it out and then I never knew what catastrophizing was when it was like that

sort of like snowball effect downward spiral yeah yeah this thing happens then this thing happens so that was a big thing and yeah so just that and then the second therapist when it was the person who mentioned the thing about my my mum's mum and being exposed to like death that young um and being around death that young and kind of just that being a thing with my hypochondria and all the rest of it. And I just think,

it's just, it's so funny like when they make you like speak out, like think, like so like me saying, her saying, so what happens if you have a seizure?

And I go, oh, I go to hospital. And she goes, well, where would the best place to be? Like, do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like so simple,

but actually them making you say it, you go what I mean it's like so simple it's like so simple but actually them making you say it you go oh it makes so much fucking sense and yeah so it's been it's been a big help

and again it's like not something that I feel like I feel again it's not something I ever saw myself doing

going to therapy and the rest of it but it definitely fucking makes me feel great like afterwards you just feel like a fucking

weight's been lifted off your shoulders and I definitely like you say if you have the means to do it it's something that I would

recommend massively I think it has helped me it continues to help me it's that thing of like it's like anything it's like

you go to the gym well I don't but you go to the gym to stay fit like for me like going to therapy is like can i go to the gym to kind of like help my mind just fucking exactly yeah work through things and and having the awareness to know that you're you are living an extraordinarily unhuman life and i say unhuman because we're not meant to have feedback at that scale. We're not meant to go into arenas. I mean, if we're probably from our hard wiring, we're probably meant to be in groups of 10.

Yeah, totally. People we know and love, you know, small communities, not going to arenas with tens of thousands of people. Absolutely, man. And I think that's the thing as well. It's like understanding that this experience that you've been through is as

as a not the word traumatic is a fucking big word but it is it is traumatic it's a massive switch like

I was fucking playing pubs at weekends taking money and fucking I was at college doing music because

and the only reason I did it was because I was lying on my bed one day and my dad says what are you doing after the summer and I goes oh I don't know yet I was lying on my bed one day and my dad says, what are you doing after the summer? And I goes, oh, I don't know yet.

I was just going to play gigs. And he was like, oh, you fuck. Fucking work at something. So I phoned my friend Adam and was like, what course are you doing? Oh, I'm doing this music course. Went and done that. So I was just fucking like pottering around

and then this shit just kicked off. What was your hope for life then? If we go back, because we did skip past that part. What was your, if I had asked you at 16 years 16 years old what you want to be when you're older what would the answer have been i've always just wanted to make enough money doing music so i didn't have to get a real job but any anything like if i made like i don't know fucking 500 pound a month i would have been fucking buzzing like i would have been so happy with that my mother first day I met my manager,

he said to me, what would be your fucking, like, ideal fucking situation? And there was this artist called Lewis Watson at the time, who was like playing, who plays like, who at the time was playing like,

King Tut's size venues in Glasgow. So that's like, 350 people. And I was a huge fan of his, and I was like, oh, I'd get like, Lewis Watson would be like my goal.

Like, that's like, that kind of, that kind of of playing King Tut's size venues up and down the UK would be my absolute goal and my manager was like I think you could be doing arenas okay this is the first day first day I met him I think you could be doing arenas and I was like shut the fuck up like Tom Pish whatever and then fucking cut to three years later playing arenas it's like it's just it's just madness so it's like yeah I just wanted to be

making enough money playing music that it wasn't that I didn't have to get a for want of a better word real job because this is like and this is this is the thing as well with this with music as well

this is a fucking one of the easiest jobs in the world this is a really easy job the actual job part of it that's the it's the being it's the famous side of things that's like

that causes the anxiety and stuff like that the actual job's a fucking breeze one of my friends one of my best pals is a grave digger like do you know what I mean that's a fucking hard job

this is a piece of piss like this is great but it's that it's the kind of the pressure you put on yourself the fame and stuff like that it's like a and I fucking hate being on being like

oh fame man it's really tough but because again it's fucking class and loads of respect but but yeah

so I think it's it's for me it was never I never thought we would get to this point like I never even when I got signed I didn't think it was going to last and I've never even when I got signed I didn't think it was going to last

and I've always been told like getting signed means nothing really because it does kind of I mean it's a nice little tick but it doesn't mean anything

more people get dropped than than fucking do fucking become success stories so it's always been like stuff that I've

I've always just been glass half empty always been like stuff that I've I've always just been glass half empty and been like this probably doesn't really work out but I'm going to fucking try and really give it a go but it probably won't work out so don't get

I don't like to get too fucking aspirational and I wouldn't say I'm necessarily an ambitious person I do think there's people around me who are ambitious and who we have the same like lofty dreams and they maybe see something in me that again this is something that I cannot be more thankful for for like labels and agents and PRs and my manager

and my family and friends and stuff they've obviously saw something and thought for some reason that we could get to a point. But personally, I just feel like, I'm just happy to play music, and specifically play live. So if this just can continue to that, I can do that. I kind of like big crowds now, so it'd be nice if they could stay big for at least two years or whatever.

But if I can play live music, I'll show up and play someone you loved it, any old shite, for the next 20 years do you know what I mean I don't give a fuck I'll do that man do you know what I mean because it's a buzz

but yeah I don't know I just think I've always been that oh this probably won't this is probably the end of the road here this is probably

as big as it's going to get and it's just even when we started doing well in terms of like selling tickets for gigs and stuff i always saw i never ever saw myself as someone who's going to have a top 40 single so this is after selling

out tours on this day i just thought oh we could maybe squeeze a top 10 album that was like my big my big thing i was like if we get a top 10 album i'll be fucking happy and then it just fucking took on a life of its own one of the things that i was um really inspired by and which we kind of skipped over again is this how many years of like practice and repetition you put in before you got discovered like playing in pubs at like 11 years old and sneaking in and hiding in the toilets yeah how important in hindsight was that practice? Like invaluable. Like it's so fucking like, like I wouldn't be doing this if I hadn't been for that. But that's the thing.

It's like the love of doing it. It wasn't like, it didn't feel like to me like a chore, like a fucking, and because I wasn't aiming for anything, it felt like, oh, this is the buzz. This is the, this is the goal. Like. We're there. Yeah, we've done it.

Me, when I got on stage, when I was 11 and hiding in toilets, when I got on stage, I was like, fuck, I made it. We're there. Yeah, we've done it. Me, when I got on stage, when I was 11 and hiding in toilets, when I got on stage, I was like, fuck, I've made it. This is good. Do you know what I mean? The fact that I didn't get kicked out of the pub that time, that was fucking grand.

That was what I was after. But to me, that was fucking, that was the goal, just play gigs. That was class. Most of my memories are going out and getting hammered and underage drinking which you obviously shouldn't do or whatever

but it's like it is that are all related we put gigs on and we in fact we got our friends to these gigs and like

we went and hired pubs that we knew served people who were like 16 and like we did it's so my life has been so

ingrained in like doing like music but it never ever felt like even now it doesn't feel like I'm working hard nothing feels like I'm working hard

like it's getting to like the number one record at the time didn't feel like I was doing much I just feel like I was because I fucking loved doing it

I didn't feel like I was working really really hard again I think it might be something to do with the fact that my brothers are like electricians

and my dad's a fishmonger and my mum's a nurse and I know what I can see like a proper day's graft compared to fanning about our day and needling on the guitar

and the rest of it but like I just never saw it as like fucking oh I'm really in the pits here and I'm fucking like I just didn't feel like I was working hard and that goes back to like being in those pub I'm really in the pits here and I'm fucking like, I just didn't feel like I was working hard

and that goes back to like being in those pubs and being in those like shite bars when you know I was listening to you or playing in a restaurant even when I was thinking, fuck,

if I was eating my dinner, I wouldn't know what to hear me fucking singing. Like that shit was like, and I think that's a lot to do with like, you have to develop a thick skin playing in a pub because someone will shout,

you'll fucking shout at you non-stop. When you're 11. Well, when you're not 11. that's a lot to do with you have to develop a thick skin playing in a pub because someone will shout your fucking shit at you non-stop when you're 11 well when you're 11 but when I started hitting puberty

and the cute factor went away it was like things got dicey for a bit for sure things were an issue but yeah

I think that's what anytime I say I meet people like young guys or girls or fucking whoever that wants to be a musician and it's like what guys or girls or fucking whoever that wants to

be a musician and it's like what did you do or whatever it's just play gigs just immediately go and play a gig don't focus on

a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna look this way and I'm gonna fucking I'm gonna fucking this is how we're gonna perform on stage and it's just like

just go do it just go play gigs don't worry about releasing you don't have to release music I never released a song I never did a song, I never did like an official release, like,

like any, like, fucking, the first song I ever released was, Bruises, which was on my album, that's the first song I ever put out, like,

went and recorded, like, I went and recorded it and did some demos before, but that was the first song I ever properly recorded, because I'd been writing songs for fucking, at that point, I would have been 20 when that came out so 10 years I'd been writing songs for with 12 because I started writing songs when I was nine so 12 years I've been writing songs for I got to a point where I was just like but it was never in my head about releasing music because I was like oh I just want to play live like it was just this

this thing that I just kept doing in tandem with playing live so for me it's just like that's whatever I say to people just go do it and just go fucking get the experience

I remember going to college when we were 18 and my like all these people who were really talented musicians and singers

and fucking like they had never but they'd never played a live gig and i was so surprised by it because they were fucking much much more like technically gifted and all the rest of it and better singers and all that shit than me but the the fact that we were we had played live so much me and my friend adam who was a top hitter and Paige who was my girlfriend my ex-girlfriend who Love Island winner 2020

but she she but she was the same she'd done loads of gigs Adam had done loads of gigs Adam had done loads of gigs like we all drove to

thingy together and and it was like that sort of experience in gigging that we all had became like it was just so

it was so apparently that sort of like kind of disparity and gigging that we all had became like it was just so it was so apparent like that sort of like kind of disparity and not again these people are much better musicians and like singers and everything than I was

but like when you got on stage it was like there was a marked difference I think just because it was like you had that comfortability of being up there

and doing it and like I think my voice is I sound the way I sound because of playing in pubs like that sort of like loud fucking because I had to fucking

sing above the noise of people talking pish and like drinking and all the rest of it and like I think yeah it's

if I hadn't done that looking back now I'm like oh that's that was the fucking that was the the kind of game changer like this is not an easy question for someone that's self-deprecating but when you look back in hindsight as you said there and you go do you know because we all do it we go what what was

the reason why i was because you've been wildly wildly fucking successful i mean i probably don't have the right words to describe the just how big your your records got and i'm a huge fan of yours you have a music chat and i really am like you know um in the same way I'm a huge fan of yours. You have a music chat and I really am. In the same way, I'm a big fan of Adele. I'm a big fan of Ed Sheeran. Your records reached that level. Thanks. In hindsight, so you say, okay,

doing those pub gigs and the repetitions there, but what else? I think... No self-deprecation. No, no, no, totally. Because I'm a fucking... Although I do think that was a big thingfecation. No, no, no, totally. Because I'm a fucking... Although I do think that was a big thing in it. It is.

Like, for sure. I think... I remember when I first started using, like, social media to do music. It was the 1975, we're kind of the main band. And everyone was like, you have to be mysterious. You have to be sort of like... And they were doing, like, the big gaps

between the letters and all the rest of it and it was very like black and white really cool and i remember if you look i mean it's all probably archived now but if you look way back at some of the things i'm like trying to do that and then after that kind of faded out but that was everybody everybody's going into like meetings and it was like oh you had to be kind of mysterious cool like black and white like like, whatever. And then, fucking, we then went on to just, I was just kind of using it to be like,

oh, I'm doing this today. Because I had actually stopped using all social media when I was 16. I didn't have Instagram, I didn't have Facebook, I didn't have any of that shit because I was just like, I thought I was being cool and edgy

by being off grid or whatever, but I was actually just a cunt. But, then I just started using it like, oh, playing fucking dot to dot festival in Bristol today

or whatever and then it wasn't until like I think I thought that we had reached our peak in terms of like music and all the rest of it

like the first EP I released did really well and then the kind of the releases in between we did a song called Rush these are songs I still love a song called Rush these are songs that I still love

a song called Rush a song called Tough Tough we thought was like this angle we thought this is the one that's going to fucking if anyone was going to like blow up

that's that one it did fuck all it did absolutely fuck all and I think at that point we were like okay this has kind of reached this peak we haven't reached the heights

of Bruises because Bruises kind of blew up online I'm reaching Reese right he hates the Bruises and that's going to be a song and whatever blah blah so then I just like didn't give a fuck on Instagram and I was just like just doing stuff that I thought me like me and my pals would laugh at and fucking just talking absolute fucking shit and just genuinely like being myself on Instagram really which was taking the piss out of things and taking the piss out of being famous

I remember the first one that I remember was coming back from an American tour we had played like places the kind of nice shows

in America and there was this big spread in the in like the Sun or some other newspaper I don't know but like

some other newspaper this big spread and it said like Lewis Capaldi no hiding place now and when I had been in that on the American tour

this girl in Philadelphia had given me these stupid fucking glasses like these stupid fucking daft cat eye glasses and I had them on me and I was like

I don't know if it was jet lag or just being an exhaustive thing but I started filming myself and being like like I don't know if it was jet lag or just being exhausted but I started filming myself being like I'm fucking so famous now by the way

it's unbelievable that's me no hiding place now please fucking stop just talking pish put the glasses on I was like this is me now

fucking like it or lump it fuck you just again just inane shy not thinking about it like taking a piss and then people just really reacted to it

again it wasn't something that I was then like and no one was like oh we have to this is the thing now we just kind of left it and just kept the more and more I just got comfortable

just talking to your fucking phone and taking the piss and realising do you know what social media is actually a piss take like just don't use it for anything serious just have a laugh.

I think that was, like, the big thing on that, when it was like, okay, I've found my feet and I've found my voice. And I just started to take the piss out of things and just realised, oh, you can actually just, you can fully just put a picture of you with a towel wrapped around your head

and these stupid glasses on with your top off. You can put that on a big massive poster on the tube Scottish Beyonce yeah like all that shit yeah yeah it's like why not do that

like you don't have to look good on it or cool on it or whatever you can just do a fucking stupid thing we did that whole Christmas thingy when it was just a close up picture of my face

and it just says Merry Christmas from Lewis Capaldi there was no we weren't promoting anything that was all on the tube no promoting anything and anything like that. It was all in the tube. No label would ever tell you

that is the strategy to become successful. And yet, for many people, that will actually be, well, for some people, that'll be how they discovered you.

I remember that video of you doing your knee, you found out your net worth. Oh yeah, 200 quid. Yeah, fuck me, man. No,

10 million at one time. Yeah, I was going to say, it was, it said you had 10 million and you're in million yeah I was gonna say that was skint yeah yeah he said you had 10 million and you're in your

like mum's bedroom and you're like I got fucking I was skint yeah yeah but that was the thing and like shit like that was just like

taking the piss no one would ever tell you to do that as a marketing strategy but this is the thing that now that someone was like we started to see other

mostly male artists doing it taking the piss and like doing like very close things to it and not to be like oh you fucking called me because it's like whatever it's people taking a piss and trying to do your thing try whatever you can I get how hard it is fucking let's do it and I remember seeing a tweet somebody saying a few years ago labels were telling people to be like the 1975 and now you go into meetings people are telling people we'll be Lewis Capaldi I can't remember who did it but I could probably find it but like I remember reading that and being like is it like because obviously I'm just doing whatever and I'm like is that a thing and then like I just started seeing it for more and more people

and then I was like oh this is fucking great like cool we're all just being ourselves this is great but you see some people doing it and that's not their personality and you can kind of see it. It's fake. You can't fake it either. Exactly. And I think that's the thing. And I don't know,

now I'm not really sure what it would be, but then like someone like, like you look at it now and it's like people who are themselves, like Doja Cat and Lizzo are two people who just are themselves and people love them for it. There's a name I'm forgetting.

Young. Youngblood. blood no an artist in america who did that song about riding a horse oh exactly that's a thing and now obviously he's doing so much for the lgbt yeah plus um representation especially in like hip-hop and all the rest of it it's fucking it's amazing and i think yeah people who are that's the thing now you're seeing people who are themselves it's less about being like a polished fucking yeah whatever people people because i think people now see through that shit like people see like well you're way more relatable than some perfect beautiful

like some like a David Beckham model with like six pack abs who is faultless and just is PR trained I can't relate to that

yeah of course but then what's funny then is it becomes such a part like it becomes a point

where that tons of people start going oh well that's just I remember there being a story and like this I think one of those people got in touch saying oh there's this story that

Lewis has a comedy writer is that true or took comedy lessons and I'm like if I took comedy lessons I'm going to be coming up with better shit than fuck I'm fat

and I'm like fat and I'm like that do you know what I mean I think I'd be able to fucking I'd have better fucking material do you know what I mean but think I'd be able to fucking I'd have better fucking material do you know what I mean but

not a bad idea exactly get me somebody on the phone get me James Acaster on the phone something like that but like nah it was like

so then that becomes like that then turns and it's like people are like oh he's fucking he's trying too hard now and you're like I'm just doing the fucking

same thing I was the last like do you know what I mean for the last 10 years but but I think that yeah was the last like do you know what I mean for the last 10 years but um but I think that that yeah people

people do like when you again when you can see someone's not being themselves like when we were doing that and there was other people doing the same shit as us it was like

that's not I can see that that's not you and that but that was like not them that's probably a label that's been like

this is working for that cunt do this like do you know what I mean there's a juxtaposition with you though because because of the music you make i'll be honest so i heard your music first loved your music all that stuff then i'm on twitter one day and i see this guy talking about his net worth and sitting in his like mom's bedroom being like where the fuck is this money i've got to tell the tax man and i'm thinking that's the guy i heard like because this guy is a comedian and he's not serious at all.

And then this guy in the music is deep, profound and serious and emotional. Yeah. It felt like two different people. So that's actually what for me made it even more like shocking, but cool. Yeah, totally. And surprising. 100%. And I think a lot of people heard that.

I never noticed that as like a thing like I never I never like saw that as a thing until people started pointing it out it's like do you know you're not like your songs at all

like because I never really thought about it do you know what I mean like I'd always just fucking made tunes and then was who I was do you know what I mean

but it's easier to write about sad things I guess like it's hard to write about like has it always been easy to write about sad things? I remember reading about this moment when someone turned to you and said how's your life going when you were like 18, 19 and that changed everything for you

yeah so up until then I was writing songs and I'd learnt how to like craft a song but I wasn't like writing anything with any like fucking meaning or like yeah like it was all kind of making up stories or whatever just like they weren all kind of making up stories or whatever or just like they weren't really about anything

and then you come in and you go into like co-writing sessions in London I think I was I might have been 17 on my first one and you go in and someone goes

oh this is it's actually with a guy called Olly Green who I still see now and then he's a great writer a great producer and you go like so what's going on in your life man like how you doing like what do I write about

and I'm like what the fuck are you talking like who are you like I've just met you and you're asking me like how I'm doing and what's going on my life like it was almost like I like aggressive the way I was saying I was like standoffish like who the fuck are you like I just met my thing and then over time that becomes you realise that it's like the people want like to talk about that and it's like

that's what makes great songs is like if you have these yeah if you have these real stories behind them and these real emotions behind them and that's not to say

you can't make a great song and it's just god was it good like fucking I remember years and years ago that remember that Robbie Williams song hey oh here she goes you really do that great tune right but i mean i haven't in an interview been like oh it doesn't mean anything

it's just like it's just all like cool and thing and it's a great song i fucking love that song but like it was like when it came to writing my songs i I found that that was like, oh, this is the fucking, this is the thing I've kind of been missing. It's like, it's weird that it took writing with someone else to bring out more of myself in the tunes. Are you in touch with your emotions? I think so.

I think so. Like, I think it's really important to feel how you're feeling. So, meaning like, if I wake up one day and i feel sad i think it's important like there's a reason i'm sad and i should sit with it and feel it rather than like i put it off or like not kind of explore i think it is quite important to like try your best to fucking just just like not

trying to put off being fucking sad just leads to like for me a big fucking hole where you're gonna like really really you're gonna just go off a cliff at one point

you can't keep putting off or like going out and boozing instead of fucking dealing with stuff or whatever same with being happy if you're happy fucking great feel it I always fucking like

get like really melancholic after especially like so I just did like my first show in years with my band

over the weekend there in Denmark and then coming back home Sunday kind of Saturday afternoon Sunday and I was just in my empty flat

and I was like fuck I feel like I feel like shit I feel really sad now because I've just had this amazing fucking like oh like the come down hi and like the come down was just in my empty flat and I was like fuck I feel like I feel like shit I feel really sad now because I've just had this amazing fucking like oh like the comedown hi and like the comedown

was just like but I thought it's important to like sit with that and enjoy it and kind of like not dissect it as such but just like kind of let it

sort of take you obviously don't let it run away with you but just kind of like deal with it don't deny it yeah yeah exactly don't be like

nah I'm grand see now if I'm anxious I'll feel anxious and be like okay i'm feeling anxious it's fine i don't know why i'm feeling this could be this could be this could be this i know a lot of people who journal and write down like i'm feeling anxious because of this what can i control what can i not all the rest of it um and i think yeah i try and I try and sit with things I do think since I've been famous or stuff

that I'm like less maybe in touch with like I've been like like relationships I feel like I've become quite a closed off person

not in like with my parents or anything else but like if I'm starting a new relationship or trying to start a relationship I can be quite a romantic relationship yeah yeah I can be quite like

I don't know shut off like a shield is that yeah yeah for sure and I guess that's just a response to you know everything that's happened but it's definitely like a so do you mean like when if you meet someone new say it's romantic partner or if it's new people, you can kind of keep a wall up because you're... Yeah. And I feel like I can like, I can be, I can have, it's kind of like, I feel like I can give, it's maybe more friendship, but I can give people the impression

that I'm like giving them everything. But really I know like I'm fucking defending certain things. Like what? I don't know. Just like my own sort of like maybe like insecurities about things

my own worries about things because you think if you share that then it's just quite a vulnerable position to be in and then it's like you don't really know you don't want to give that

straight away yeah yeah totally because you don't know how they'll react to it totally 100% and it's like you don't really want to I don't know

you're just kind of careful about who you share that with and who you spend your time with in general but like it's easier sometimes

to just not give that away to anybody to give them the like the public image first yeah yeah totally because that's the thing

everyone has a perception of who you are and like even if I'm on dating apps or whatever it's kind of weirdly one-sided but I'm asking them a bunch of shit

because it's like they can google yeah they know loads of things and they've either seen an interview or fucking heard on the radio and it's like this is one of the things I think I'm quite open

in interviews and stuff like that but I do think there's still a lot of things people don't know about me like there's certain questions I won't get asked I've always wanted to ask someone this question I'm not sure I've ever asked it but um it's I sat one day with myself and I thought what's the question as someone that's always doing interviews always

talking what's the question someone should ask me what's the best question they should probably they should ask me because I'd love to ask that question to someone else one day and the best question I could come up with is Steve if I was asking it to myself steve what is the question that no one asks you that they should be asking you that would reveal the most interesting untapped answer now i'm going to ask you that question and then i'll answer it myself as well which i've never done before okay um fuck i don't know like what's the question that you think do you know if you'd asked me that you fucking would have found out something oh I don't know um

fuck maybe like things like what makes you happy like genuinely what makes you happy because I can think about loads of things that make me sad

but I'm quite hard at like music became a like a hobby that became a job and now I like find in my life there's a lot of gaps

in terms of, like, what I can do to, like, make myself, like, like, other than fucking,

so I'm abstaining from alcohol at the minute. I'm not, like, fucking thinking, but, like, I've been off it for,

like, three, four weeks or whatever. Just because we're doing, we're busy doing all this shit, so I want to be thinking. And it's, other than,

like, and again, this is part of where I grew up other than like going out at the weekend and getting pissed it's like what do you do or like playing shows what do you do

that actually makes you happy and I think a lot I kind of don't know do you know what I mean other than like my music Liam said that to me thank you

pardon Liam said that Liam Cairn said that to me yeah it's a very strange position to be in and it's like I don't know where I would start

to try and find someone like that. Do you know what I mean? Is that in part because your success took your passion away? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It takes your passion away because it kind of... Turns it into... It's monetized.

Responsibility. Yeah, it's responsibility. It's fucking... Pressure. It's your band and crew who have got kids and stuff like that that you feel kind of responsible for in a way and then it's like the pressures of fucking trying not to say the wrong thing, especially in fucking these times that we're in,

trying not to say the wrong thing all the time and fucking like trying not to, like you don't want to upset anybody, so try not to upset anybody and then also the pressure of fuck that first album did well what's this next album going to do

like this sort of uncertainty I think a lot of people as well think just because the first album did well the second album's going to do great and it's just not that's just not the case you're only as good as

your next song I think one of the things that I think it's important for you to know is that is not a Lewis Capaldi thing that is a human thing i remember reading one day about a study which actually wrote about my book where they got people to do a task right a game that they enjoyed doing and they measured their success performance and all those kind of things happiness and then they got them to do the exact same task but they paid them to do it okay and their motivation and happiness dropped and

it's and it's so paradoxical you don't think well if you pay me to do something that i love my joy of doing it will drop that makes absolutely no sense but you're right it shifts from being passion as the key incentive and motivator to money or responsibility yeah um and it's even something i think about with this podcast because I started it because I love it. I love having these conversations and no one's fucking listening. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Knowing all of this and about how motivation, money, I just want to keep fighting for the bit that I love and doing it my way and not allowing, you're good at this because I know you cancelled some shows when you just needed some time. It's just taking some fucking time when I need it and saying no. Totally.

And I think that's the thing as well. It's like the way we're saying about stopping before you are stopped. You get driven. Do you know what I mean? It's like stopping when you have the issue who's made it rather than, oh, you physically can't do this just now

because you're in such a bad way. But what was the question that you'd want to ask? I thought I'd go first. You remembered. Come on. that you'd bought it I still haven't I thought I got it you remembered I don't think people ask me so it would be around how I've dealt with

the shift in my life from going from being like someone that the newspapers didn't write about to being getting emails from the big newspapers saying is this story true about your past or your life? And like, in those moments,

it's really fucked me. Like, so I've had just this, like, now the media seem to care about my life. And sometimes they say things which aren't true. And I had thousands of employees. So they went back through all of my employees.

And I remember this one article where they like found like three of them, which was like 0.01% of my employees and I'd never met these three people and they and those three people had a bad experience they wrote a story about it um not a bad experience with me but a bad experience with someone in my business and that like crippled me for like many days I was I couldn't think about anything else I was in like and that is probably my actually probably my first experience with something that I would call anxiety. Just like feeling like nervous for like days on end. Yeah, totally.

And it's out of your control as well. Even with all my experience doing this podcast and speaking to hundreds of successful people about anxiety and all those things and how you deal with it, you would think I would be an expert. Yeah, totally. No fucking.

No, I'm not. And I still don't know. I still don't know how to. If I get into one of those Yeah, totally. No fucking. Yeah. No, I'm not. And I still don't know. I still don't know how to. If I get into one of those moments, I never got into it before. It was only public attention that did it to me. Yeah, totally. I mean.

Business pressure never. It was public attention and like, I don't want to even say I'm famous, but quote unquote, like being in the public spotlight. Totally. That made me go, this is a new feeling.

Yeah. Because you can't't you can't control other people's perception of you you can't control how you are perceived by the wider public people make

like there is I remember I did the Brit Awards to just announce an award the other week like last year or something I wasn't there to perform it

I went on and I was like oh fucking I can't remember what I said I think I went the crowd was like cheering and all that and I went shut up

shut up shut up very like jovial no one was offended you go online and there's like comments like he's so disrespectful because it was NHS workers

in the fucking audience I don't know this I don't know it was like everyone there was like howling all this but he's so like that's so

disrespectful my mum works for the NHS by the way I've said much more to my mum than shut up but but yeah it's that thing

it's that I totally can empathise with that situation because it is just fucking like you got into doing this you got into doing this because you love doing this and then

and your business because you love doing your business and it's that you're not trained and no one's trained humans aren't meant to have fucking millions of people I'm going to come back to something

you said earlier because we glazed past that and my brain has just gone go back to that sure you're on Tinder oh yeah yeah yeah I've just been kicked off of Tinder

why? because I think people think I'm they're reporting you fake so I've been kicked off of Bumble Tinder Hinge and Hinge is the one I really like I I of Bumble Tinder Hinge and Hinge is the one

I really I love Tinder Tinder's great but Hinge is the one I really want to get on because I feel like that's now like mid-twenties

that's what people are on I'm on I'm on a bunch of them don't worry about that but then and then I'll go oh I got on this one someone the other day

told me to get on this thing called Field and I was like oh cool there's another fucking dating app whatever and I go on it

and it's like so sexual it's unbelievable like it's all about like like kinks and fucking BDSM and I'm like this is way beyond

like anything I'm like tuned in for but like yeah but kicked off Hinge, Bumble, Tinder all these things because I'm still fucking 25

but that's the thing as well I always struggle with like I don't want to like there's always people who talk about things like a power imbalance of like someone being famous

or whatever but I'm trying to like work that out as well that's like a new thing of like I don't want to like use my fame or I don't want that

to have any influence over someone who I'm dating but then at the same time it's obviously a big part of like and it's unavoidable yeah and it's like I don't want that to have any influence over someone who I'm dating. But then at the same time, it's obviously a big part of like... And it's unavoidable. Yeah. And it's like, I can't, what am I only supposed to date people

who are also famous? Like, that's a really weird thing. So it is that thing of like, yeah, it is strange. I admit, being on Tinder is a bit weird. I met a last girl from Tinder. She's fucking great. So this is brilliant.

Like, do you know what I mean? This is after I've been famous. Is there a part of you that hopes they don't give a fuck about it and don't know who you are no I think I'm like because again

it's that way of like 20 any girl from like 22 to 25 is probably gonna know again that's like sounds wanky

but just age range like fucking nowhere to hide yeah do you know age range like fucking nowhere to hide yeah do you know what I mean exactly nowhere to hide I'm fucking famous

but I think I kind of I kind of want them to if they know there's nothing worse than a girl going oh I didn't even like

realise like I hate that when you can like tell that someone's talking about sometimes it's fucking totally but sometimes when people like it just doesn but sometimes when people like

it just doesn't matter when people like I don't know if you've had this since like this all blown up but like I've got a girlfriend mate so I don't but like when people come up to you anybody comes up to you and they love to let you know that they don't give a fuck who you are

I don't even know who you are I don't give a fuck who you are whatever blah blah and you're like alright like feelings mutual like what the fuck is this like you don't have to come up

and tell me that you it's fucking brutal but um so like and sometimes that happens in dating as well

where it's like yeah I don't even fucking care about like who you are whatever and it's just like okay this is like you don't have to

tell me that like just like we can just have a conversation as two human beings or whatever but um yeah I think

I would rather if they did know who I was that I was like oh yeah like cool like your music's cool or whatever blah blah blah

I probably wouldn't if someone was like like if someone was at like for example if I met a girl at a gig now yeah

I probably wouldn't maybe back like ages ago when I was playing smaller gigs, but now it just feels a bit, that feels weird to me. That's a very big thing. That feels like maybe taking advantage of your position. So I probably wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. Full stop.

But I think, yeah, if someone was into the music, that's great. If someone was like, oh, that's not really my thing, but cool. If someone hated it absolutely fine as well but I just think I just like people to be as upfront as possible

rather than be like oh yeah oh are you that oh is that like your song whatever blah blah blah but it's like you just want people to be genuine right

yeah exactly exactly because if they're not then you there's trust question marks right yeah yeah of course

of course of course and I think that that's again maybe a big thing of like the whole not giving too much of myself away and all the rest of it

like and putting those walls up how is dating and relationships and all that in your life now because do you have

do you have do you have trust issues that people are going for you for the wrong reasons that's the question i get asked a lot it's like how should be in that dragon's den and people know you for like money yeah yeah people think that you're going to attract a certain type of person of course i mean

yeah totally but there's this um really good bit in the trip with steve coogan and rob bryden when he goes oh well she's only going out with you famous because you're famous and i see who goes but i am famous that's like me saying he's only going out with you because you're famous and I see who goes but I am famous that's like me saying she's only going out with you because you're good looking and young like it's that thing I'm like

it is such a big part right now at least right now in my life of who I am that it is hard to get away from I think it's going to listen more

for some crazy coincidence more girls are interested in me now than there were a couple of years ago really I don't know what it is but it's definitely changed

they read about your net worth yeah yeah totally but but it's not to say like and I don't but like it's a

like again it's that thing of like see people feel like they know you and like all the rest of it and they've seen your personality and you've maybe made them laugh or like whatever that can be a it they've seen your personality and you've maybe made them laugh or like whatever

that can be a it's attractive thing yeah yeah and as well you maybe have this people think you're confident because like or at least with me

people think I'm confident because of how I am on like if I'm on a talk show or if I'm on like my Instagram people assume that I'm a lot more kind of confident

and if I fill a few beers I'm going to be more chatty are you confident? I wouldn't I wouldn't say so not really again it's that thing of like feeling really open to like

people it's like that you're kind of put on display I feel like I hate I don't know I just don't think I'm

yeah no I wouldn't say I'm not as confident as I was when I was a kid let's put it that way I mean I don't think anyone has but like

I don't some days I feel really outgoing and I'm like oh I'm really chatty some days I struggle to talk to my friends like see some days

I'll just be like there'll be a bunch of people around the world behind my laugh and then like three of them will leave and it'll just be me and one other pal

and in my head I'm like fuck what did you say to your friends like do you know what I mean it will leave and it'll just be me and one other pal and in my head I'm like fuck what did you say to your friends like do you know what I mean it's that way where you're just in your head and you get in my head and I'm like

I can't think of anything to say do you know what I mean so sometimes that happens like there's been times where I've done interviews with people and I've been really chatty and outgoing

because it's like it's a set up thing they're asking me questions I don't necessarily ask them anything and it's quite easy to just kind of lock into that rhythm but't necessarily ask them anything and it's quite easy to just kind of lock into that rhythm but when it's like and maybe it's maybe part of doing interviews because a lot of the the sort of interactions I have with people are very like

one-sided ask a question I'll answer that ask a question I'll answer it whereas and now I kind of sometimes I'm a bit especially in a romantic setting I'm a bit like fuck what do I say to this like what do I say to this person and it's something that yeah I need to get better obviously but um and plus it's an interesting thing as well because if someone knows what you do it's quite an it's like a job that yeah they might so they might start asking you questions and it becomes a bit of a problem is it can become a bit of a Q&A and that's exhausting yeah yeah totally you don't want to be doing that on the fucking weekend yeah no totally 100% like people asking like oh doing that on the fucking weekend. No, no, totally. A hundred percent.

Like people asking like, oh, how's the gigs going? Or how's like writing new music going? And you're like... You're going to give the dead answers, which is just, yes, good. All right, totally. And they go, how's this?

Yes, good. It's like, who cares? Like, let's not talk about this. And you know, like they don't really care. Yeah, yeah, totally. Isn't that the worst type of question? When you know someone's asking a question and they don't really care.

Yeah, of course. I absolutely despise small talk. Yeah, talk yeah as you can probably tell from this podcast no talk has been small straight in i find it exhausting i think i'm an introvert yeah i totally agree but then it's very again how often in the real world can you start a conversation with a really deep question never exactly so it's like in this situation yeah we got off to that fucking great start and it's like to be fair

even before the podcast and stuff it was like having a chat that was about fucking proper and deep stuff so it was like

but in real life if you walk up to Sunday and the desk goes or whatever and go like tell me about key points in your life it's like

then we go like what the fuck you're talking about you're stuck by some bread you know what I mean like fucking I think that's it is thingy

but but yeah no that's what I'm saying it's like so refreshing to have these conversations and actually speak about these things because it's like

there's just no other situation where you can actually sit down and talk to this unless it's like your family or friends but even then it's like sometimes when you

go to see your parents you don't want to have fucking big deep chats you just want to like be with your parents and enjoy being with your parents and like just sit to have fucking big deep chats you just want to like be with your parents and enjoy being with your parents and like just sit and have dinner

and just enjoy be there yeah just be there rather than be like explain your whole life yeah totally do you know what I mean I think

yeah so these these situations that are very I mean I don't often have we don't often have conversations this deep in front of cameras

like this many cameras but like I think yeah it's it's always refreshing when you think so you got you know and have conversations just deep in front of cameras like this with my cameras but like I think yeah it's always refreshing when you think so you got you know

you now realise that there is and I hate to fucking add more pressure but you know there's an expect there's the people are waiting now

for this for new music at some point whenever it's going to be coming how do you how are you feeling about that how are you feeling oh I'm

like genuinely shit myself the point's making this fucking new music where I was like I actually fucking care about this I'm just going for the motions and writing this

writing these songs and all this and then there would be days where I'm like fuck I'm sweating on this so now the album's done and every single song

I fucking love and I think it's a better album than the first one and I really care about it and I really put a lot of I write about a lot more stuff that I would never have spoke about in the first album like pertaining to my own mental health and

like my own sort of outlook on things regarding being famous or whatever and I think like that it's kind of like a nice thing to be scared because I'm like oh fuck I really really want this to go well

because I really care about this album and I realise I really care about making this music and being able to put it out and having this privileged position to be able

to fucking go and do that but yeah I'd be lying if I said that was anything other than absolutely fucking bricking it it's like it's a serious and it's like

it's that thing as well like I said earlier where people are like oh man you can fucking shout you can fart on the mic and it'll go to's that thing as well like I said earlier where people are like oh man you can fucking shout you can fart on the mic and it'll go to fucking

top ten or whatever just because the last album did well does not mean that at all it's like fucking it's nonsense like people

want good music if isn't the music shite then it's not it's not gonna fly do you know what I mean but you've done the bit you can control yes

100% but is there not now a risk of putting your emotions on the uncontrollable like there's nothing now you can do once you've written music

and you've done the hard bit there's nothing more that you can do to control it obviously you can do promo and stuff but that's not going to you know that won't that's not going to be the thing

that pushes it over the edge yeah no totally and it is that it is like the fucking unknown and it is shit that I can't control and it is up to is like the fucking unknown and it is shit that I can't control

and it is up to fucking I don't know a fucking higher power or faith or whatever I don't know but like it's eh it's still

it's still quite hard it's one of those things where no amount of therapy I think is going to help me not focus on that and it is like I'm quite bad for like having anticipation

anxiety being like because I'm ready to fucking go now like I'm ready to go like someone suggested that we, being like, cause I'm ready to fucking go now. Like I'm ready to go. Like someone suggested that we push things back a bit the other day, a bit more.

And I was like, I cannot wait like any longer to put this music out. This is like, this has to go out. And as well, if you wait too long, it's fucking, the album starts to mean less to you

and you kind of like, you get further away from writing those songs and what they meant to you or whatever. So, um, can I ask you a question though? Yes. If it goes really well,

so if it goes bad, I kind of can guess how you probably might feel. But if it goes really well, how will you feel? I don't know. This is like, I'm kind of worried that if it goes bad, I'll be relieved because I'll be like, oh, thank fuck that all that pressure's off.

Do you know what I mean? Like part of me kind of feels like that and then part of me feels like, oh no, if it goes well, I'll be like oh thank fuck that all that pressure's off do you know what I mean like part of me kind of feels like that and then part of me feels like oh no if it goes well I'll be relieved but then sometimes I'm like oh but if it goes well I'll be like fuck I've got other like do you know what I mean there's only like if it goes well surely that just means more prying eyes and more like fame and more like thing which again is fucking great a lot of the time but it has its pitfalls and it's like will that then feed into the anxiety more or is this my anxiety now i've learned to deal with it or will it get worse or will it expand or will it show itself in different ways or what would you say to a friend if if they were going through thinking

all the things you're thinking what would you say if you were if i was your best mate we'd known each other since we were kids and i was saying all this you're thinking what would you say if you were if I was your best mate we'd known each other since we were kids and I was saying all this stuff to you what would you say to me I don't know I'd say just like remember why you got into it

in the first place remember why you're doing it don't feel like you're working towards some end product feel like you're you're in it this is the end product you're enjoying it

this is what you're supposed to be doing you're here fucking be here don't fucking you're not there's no fucking it's here. Fucking be here. Don't fucking, you're not, there's no fucking,

it's not a destiny, like this is pure like, on a fucking card, but like, there's no destination that you're trying to get to, but like, just fucking like, this is the fun part.

Like this is, this is supposed to be fun. Let it be fun. Do you know what I mean? Because I think the only thing that's stopping it from being fun is fucking my mind. Do you know what I mean?

So, I mean, it's easier to say that to people than to say yeah it is you're right but they say they say i've read the quote i've posted this a few times myself where they say you know if you always go through life believing happiness is somewhere else then it will never be where you are totally it's like deferring the happiness to a future moment but it's like a mirage you see it in like when people are in those like movies in the desert and they see i know you're like chasing a rainbow and it just keeps moving off further into the future.

Totally. And I think that's the thing as well. I haven't done all this mad shit and then been to the Grammys. Fucking hate the Grammys. Fucking been to a bunch of other world shows that I didn't really enjoy. The world show that I loved the most was the Brit Awards the night that I had won two awards.

Not because I won the awards, but because it was like the first time I ever felt like oh fuck we're celebrating this my mum and dad were there three of my best pals from home

were like able to come down and do it the people who'd worked on the record were actually sitting at the table with me we were like

like label wise and manager wise and that we're like that felt like an amazing moment and then you realise it's because there was

all these people there it wasn't like because I'm there and I've And then you realize it's because there was all these people there. It wasn't like, because I'm there and I've won something or whatever. It's because you're celebrating this with like people that you love and people that you, that have been through it all with you. And if my mom and dad, obviously my mom gave birth to me, by the way,

I don't know if I really, yeah. Like, so like my mom and dad and then my friends who I've grown up with. And then these people who have put their fucking blood sweat and tears into making the record

with me and then like the label and stuff who've fucking worked so hard on promoting it and getting out there and I think that's that was what

like what you realise is like I mean again it's like so fucking like cliche or whatever but that is like you were like fuck this is genuinely

why it's fun like because you're getting to share this moment with all these other people when it's not anything to do with like you say getting to a point

like getting to the Brits and winning a Brit was very I was having a fucking great night that night regardless do you know what I mean like there was nothing

that was going to like either way yeah do you know what I mean if I'd lost I wouldn't have been like ah fuck I lost night's ruined I'm going home

I wouldn't have been like alright cool let's fucking kick on it just so happened that I won these two things that I had to carry about with me for the rest of the night do you know what I mean if I'd lost I wouldn't have been like ah fuck I lost nice round I'm going home I wouldn't have been like alright cool let's fucking kick on it just so happened that I won these two things that I had to carry about me for the rest of the night do you know what I mean

better think it was the 100th 100th but then like and then going to the Grammys I remember Grammys started to finish had a panic attack the whole time

it was fucking dreadful hated every moment of it and when we didn't win i remember feeling like oh thank god and like it just kind of like melted away because it was like thank fuck i don't need to go and do that shit i don't know if it maybe was like fuck this is good i don't know if maybe in my head i'm like oh fuck if we were to win something like that that's like more and more eyes on you that maybe you can't handle at this moment in time i don't know if i was like my body like telling me something but i fucking hated the grammys pish like all these things were like and at that time it was just me my manager and like the guys who i wrote so i

mean love with like i think when you can see the people i mean i love them to bits but and when you can see like the people you're like who have kind of made you who you are as it were enjoying the things that you're enjoying and seeing it unfold and stuff I think that's the that's the buzz

so how do you make sure how do you take that with you going forward well hopefully the record does well enough next time that I can ask for more tickets to things do you know what I mean

that's honestly like but I think that's like like it's just keeping those people close and like that's that's another thing about Covid and going back to like, like, it's just keeping those people close and like, that's another thing about COVID and going back to like, I lived with my parents,

like I didn't have a flat or whatever, I lived with my parents because I was on tour all the time, I never needed a house. So I moved out during COVID and stuff and it's like that, realising like, like,

no matter what, however things go and no matter where you go and no matter what happens in your career or fucking, it's like, it's always just go, no matter what happens in your career, or fucking, it's like, it's always just going to come back to that, and those people,

and those, and like, aye, where your roots are and stuff, I don't think it's, it's just, for me, that's,

that's, it kind of reaffirms the importance of all that stuff, COVID, like being there, and being back, and, yeah, I think that was, me the that that COVID for me that was kind of what I got out of it and I think for me it's just then taking that forward and try

at any time I can share moments like that with people even if it means that I was doing an award show in America flying some people out and doing it and it's like fucking it's like not worrying about like oh fuck it's quite expensive they fly it fuck it

fly them out because it's like it's going to make the moment it's going to make the moment yeah it's going to make exactly yeah it's going to make it fucking what it is

and it's going to fucking that's the best yeah do you have any goals looking really into the future do you have any of those big bucket list style goals where you go fucking hell hell, that would be?

I'd like to write a song for a film. Okay. That's kind of my only thing. James Bond or something like that. Maybe not. I don't know if that's me. I don't know if I'm suave enough to have that sort of thingy, but I don't know, man.

Anything, anything would be good. But even if it's like, I don't know, some indie film or whatever, it doesn't have to be fucking anything. I just quite like, even if it's like, I don't know, some like indie film or whatever, it doesn't have to be fucking anything. I just like, I quite like the idea of, that's like a new challenge, like writing for,

I wrote for a game once. That was quite fun. I enjoyed that. Do you reckon you could do it for a podcast? Yeah, fucking sure. I like it. Like,

come on, battle on the voice. I've seen your net worth. I know you're not cheap. But yeah, so that for me that's kind of I don't really have any like

in terms of like chart positions and everything like that again I never really had that the first time round and I think it's only

you're only going to be disappointed in situations like that I think maybe yeah I don't really know I just kind of again

it's meant to be fun and I think me putting goals on things, the way my mind works, would kind of strip that of some of the fun of it. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, the film thing would be good. And I hope the people who really, really loved the first album, really, really loved the second album,

doesn't have to be more like, more people, but the people who like really really carry the album with them and still are fucking like like still fucking are connected to it and are still fucking playing it over and over again i hope that they love the second record and i hope that i did that and their eyes did it justice because in mine i have what about personal goals so like when i when i look at my personal life i go go, okay, there's a certain balance and structure to my personal life that I hope to achieve someday.

I think I still need to learn how to say no to things. I think I'm getting, I've cancelled shows before and all the rest of it, but I'm quite bad at like, oh fuck, if I say no to that, that's an opportunity

that just won't come back or whatever. I need to learn, I'd like to be able to do that just for my own sort of personal life I'd like to do some travelling that isn't relating to work

at some point I guess that's like taking time for myself out of like that was kind of the plan over Covid like well what became Covid

that I was going to go away and see all these places and actually just take some time so I was going to go away and see all these places and actually just take some time so I'd like to do that kids relationships I don't know

I mean a relationship would obviously be nice not something I'm seeking at the moment where are you on all these apps then just for BDSM yeah just for BDS just for my kink shirt

yeah yeah just for my kinks but I don't know I think it's still nice to have like I like meeting new people and hanging out with new people and

like shagging and that I guess but I don't necessarily sorry about that everybody but I don't really have

like if at least I came up with the right person fucking if I met the right person bang on I'd be buzzed but like just I think right now as well it's a came up with the right person fucking if I met the right person bang on I'd be buzzed but like just I think right now

as well it's a bit unfair for the other person if I'm fucking constantly away and all the rest of it they have to be quite understanding human being kids

I think that's fucking right now it's not on my plans at all yeah but you're so fucking young yeah exactly like I'm 25 so it's like

I see my friends having some of my friends one of my parents has got four kids Matt's exactly like I'm 25 so it's like I see my friends some of my friends one of my parents has got four kids Matt's the same age as me and it's like or three kids maybe I don't know

but I don't know to speak to them that much anymore it became a dad and I didn't want anything to do with it that just reminds me of how like

I'm getting older but yeah no like people I know getting married and having kids and that's just like not my bag at all and again I don't have

anything wrong with that people like doing their thing I suspect you'll meet someone that's what happened with my my bag at all and again i don't have anything wrong with that people like doing their thing i suspect you'll meet someone that's what happened with me where i was very much the type of person where i was like it's not fair on them i'm too busy my work comes first blah blah blah and then i met someone i've seen this a lot with especially with some musicians that were like rock stars like proper like you know rock stars drugs drugs drugs and they meet someone and they just slip yeah because a lot of things going out and doing stuff like that

is boredom yeah that is a lot like don't get me wrong I love a fucking night out a lot of times you're like you'll be sitting about Thursday night

Wednesday fucking night or something and you've got nothing on on Wednesday and you're like fuck this is boring shall we just go get a few pints and then you end up out

and you're fucking unimaginable so it's like I can totally see that like that switch so but it's nice because you're fucking unimaginable so it's like I can totally see that like that switch but it's nice because you're being young yeah totally 100%

and I think that's a big thing as well it's like remembering that I'm in my 20s is a big thing for me because sometimes I'm a bit like

fuck let's just get this done and like not giving a fuck and like missing birthdays and fucking weddings and all this shit

few knows but I think it's sometimes it's important to remember my age and like shit like that like to actually take time for life rather than just slave it slaving away at work we we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question to the next guest you might have seen it before um the previous guest asked you a question, but I'm actually going to ask a follow-up question to this as well. The question they left for you was, not knowing who they left it for,

was kind of an interesting question that they left it for you, but would you rather win the Premier League, win an Oscar, or headline Glastonbury? I mean, I think... Do you know what, actually? I do think there's something unreal about like

see being scoring like a great goal a great goal you should do soccer aid yeah oh fuck me I'm shy of football but I'll be like a manager

I'll stand aside like it's like a class but like the sound of it that I've always thought fuck that'd be the best feeling ever

like but I'm a Celtic fan so like Old Firm Derby like scoring like a fucking the winning goal 90th minute fucking whatever

like that must be unreal but obviously just because I'm a musician I mean headlining glass and be pretty fucking so I'm gonna so I kind of

that's why I knew it would be a bit bit of an easier question for you so I'm gonna ask a question which we mentioned earlier on

which was caused a bit of a eureka moment in your life which is, how are you doing? I'm good, I think.

I'm definitely not, I think over the last, the last two, three weeks, I've really come back to like being myself. I think I was maybe in a bit of a, not like a rut but like a funny patch of the few weeks prior I think I was maybe going out a bit too much um kind of feeling a bit dejected because it because we're just like this well as I was talking about this long run up to releasing this first single um I was feeling a

bit dejected about that and stuff and just overall just anxiety just like really fucking getting the better of me um but I think over the last like couple of weeks

I've kinda coming at the other end of it so I feel pretty good I feel quite optimistic cautiously optimistic um but yeah

it's still it's still there anxiety's always there but I think yeah I'm very yeah I'm very yeah I'm happy at the minute

which is good it's the most I can ask for operating at 80% it's fucking class I can see the caution in the words which is which is telling

but do you know what I couldn't be more like I don't sit here and gas people up or really bullshit them because I don't really have to. You can say other things. I genuinely love your music.

Thank you so much. And I really, really mean that. Like I genuinely, sincerely mean that. I've watched your acoustic tracks and your covers on YouTube of your own songs. I've watched all of it. And I couldn't be more excited to hear whatever you do next.

And I'm not even, even as a fan of yours, I'm not even anticipating it's going to be the same as last time. I'm actually just so intrigued to hear another Lewis. And when I say another Lewis, I just mean more Lewis. Totally, yeah. More from you because, you know, your album was actually quite, I think because you have so many hits on there, it can feel a little bit short in hindsight

because I've played the song so many times. So I'm so excited for that. And I also want to thank you generally because it's so refreshing for someone to be so unbelievably open and honest with some of the issues you talk about because you won't know until, you know, after this conversation comes out, how many people you help by doing that. Like when jack came on and talked about his health anxiety jack

jack said online he got thousands of messages a day of people thanking him because there's not enough people talking about it what's the incentive to do so um there's there is an incentive but doesn't appear to be one it seems to be a greater cost so thank you for that because we need to have more of those conversations especially about therapy and being a man and being open about your feelings and thank you for doing this

it's a huge honour honestly thank you so much for having me on it's honestly so refreshing to actually have a fucking full on conversation in depth conversation

about stuff because no one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me today so it's good to actually talk I feel lighter great questions that you've asked me today so it's good to actually talk i feel later great

you