The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Mel C: The Harsh Reality Of Being In The World’s Biggest Girl Band

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

Mel C is a singer and ‘Sporty Spice’ from the Spice Girls, through her solo career and her time with the Spice Girls she’s sold over 100 million records, making her one of the best selling musical artists of all time. Every single one of those records was against the odds of coming from a council estate near Liverpool, derogatory labels in the press calling her ‘Sumo Spice’, and music industry management that didn’t believe in her and sought to objectify her. But she persevered and helped to build the biggest girlband of all time, as well as one of the most successful solo careers of any group member ever. The world is so glad she did because, as this conversation shows, she has so much to contribute when she’s let free to do things her way. Follow Mel: Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/melaniecmusic Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/melaniecmusic/ Mels book: https://amzn.to/3R1ikGl Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. Before we start, I've got to be honest with you about something. When we recorded this episode with Mel C, it was honestly one of the most moving, heartbreaking, inspiring, revealing conversations I've ever had on this podcast. And I've been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you for some time now. And then we had an incident where one of our hard drives was stolen and we lost the audio for Mel's mic which is really really heartbreaking because of all the episodes to lose the audio for for it to be this one is has been very hard to deal with and I think I want to start by

apologizing to Mel because she came here she shared her story in such a profound vulnerable way and I've carried the sense of guilt because um because when people come here not only are they giving us their time but they're giving us their story and for some people as is the case in this conversation it's the first time that that story has been shared in this way so I've been really struggling with that but because it was such a profound story and to to make sure we honour all of that which Mel gave us by coming here. We spent a lot of time fixing the audio we do have which actually comes from one of the cameras that's rolling, not from the microphone in front of her. We've worked with a specialist to try and repair the audio as much as we possibly can and this is one of the episodes where I'm asking you

for a favour which is to stay with us. I know it's not always easy to listen to audio when it's not as crisp as this audio sounds right now. But there's a story underneath the lack of clarity in the audio, the lack of crispness in the audio that needs to be heard. It's one of the most amazing stories we've ever shared. And so I hope you enjoy this episode. And we've put many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many measures in place to make sure that we never lose any audio or any footage ever again. In this case, it was out of our control. But this episode is worth it. So we're putting it out anyway.

You're going to enjoy it. There's an element of guilt attached to my success. It was joyless, you know, because I had a secret and it was killing me. Melanie Sims! The early days of the Spice Girls were the best and I feel blessed. But with it has been some really tough times. It was fucking dramatic how it went down. The tabloid media were brutal.

We all got called terrible, horrible things. Did you notice a change in yourself at all after that? Definitely. That was the catalyst. Why? I became very, very ill. I couldn't control my eating. I was struggling to get out of bed. It was killing me. I think, did

becoming famous ruin my life? Did it ruin me? Sometimes I question it. And yeah, that's my head. Iary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Melanie, when I sit here with people, I always try and figure out the best starting point. I always know I'm going to start at the very beginning. But with you, when I was reading through your story, it was quite clear to me that the things that shaped you started at a very, very young age. I'm talking when you were two, three and four years old.

So can you take me right back to the very start? I'm guessing that's like sort of 1976-ish? It is. And you're right, you know, things that happened to me when I was a toddler really define a lot of who I became. I grew up just off of Liverpool and I was born in West Sittingsford. My parents and I lived in a place called Grain Hill. And they divorced when I was, I think I was about three years old. And my life kind of quite quickly changed. You know, lots of young people would be affected like that. And yeah, that was where the story began, I think. Me developing this need to succeed.

When you say your life changed, give me a color to what that means for you so i was living quite comfortably with mom and dad you know the kind of happy archetypal family life and my mom and we left me and my mom left and we went to live with my grandparents and then we we went to live um in quite a different area it was still only about 30 minutes away but it was quite different we went into um council accommodation and my um quite quickly my mum was in a new relationship so there was this new guy around and it was just kind of it just you know looking back it was just very different to the world I'd entered into when I first turned upon this planet. What was your family's sort of economic situation throughout this journey?

Was it, were you a working class family or? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, my family just are, you know, very working class, you know, through the generations. And my mum and dad were doing you know they were doing good we had a lovely semi-detached house in a in a nice suburb of you know Liverpool and obviously with my mum leaving dad as today you know lots of couples find that it is very difficult to to start again and so we were yeah going into a situation where it was hard for mum to make ends meet so it was yeah it was it was quite a tough area to be um to be grown down where was your dad

so dad was in the house in the house you'd been raised in for those first few years and then after i think a couple of years he went traveling and yeah, and then he went to work abroad, actually. So I've always seen a lot of my dad, but there were periods of times when he was away. So, yeah, so it was a bit of a shake-up. Quite early, but they're formative years, aren't they? And you're that little. You don't think about it because as a child, your life is your life.

But I think when you start to think about who you are and how you became that person, you start to, you just kind of pinpoint maybe little moments that put you on that track. So when you look back to that experience of your parents separating at a very young age and then your life shifting, and in hindsight, what impact did that have on you?

Like when you look back and connect those dots, you can go, oh, that's the reason reason for that i think it kind of confused me i think as a young person to have my location change you know to be taken from the family home and obviously i'm tiny so i didn't understand you know i didn't understand adult relationships i didn't understand why it was happening so this little series of events and then you know I have a new I've got a stepdad and then I had a new sibling and then I had stepbrothers and so there was just there was just quite a lot of big things happening in my little world and it made me just kind of confused to like where I belonged, who I was, how I fitted in to that new dynamic. And you know, as I got older and my dad remarried and I have this incredible family, it's very complicated and it's huge.

And I have half siblings, step siblings and step parents and and it's lovely but I think for me being the only child of my mum and dad sometimes made me feel a little bit of a spare part and I think that's what made me feel like I had to make myself a place in the world and my own place in the world and I think also it was about kind of earning the love of these people. I kind of felt like I had to prove that I was worthy of existence. It sounds melodramatic, but I think as a young person, I mean, especially going through my teenage years, you question everything, don't you? You know, why are we here?

And a lot of that for me was like, do I deserve to be here? And so I had to make myself worthy of being here and you think that started because of the your parents separation and in this new context of these other siblings that were felt maybe belonged more than yeah right I think I think especially when you know both my parents remarried and they both really happily remarried and gone on to have my children and I love my parents and I love my stepbrothers and all of my siblings but for me I sometimes feel quite alone and I think that is what propelled me and some of the issues I went on to have in later life and you know for good

and for bad you know I think there's been real benefits to those feelings and to be very determined um very conscientious but also it's going to be very hard on myself and end up a perfectionist one of the things that i was quite surprised to read was this almost contradiction between you you really looked up to your dad you i think you wrote in your book that you almost worshipped him but then when he left it was almost like there wasn't there wasn't a reaction from you yeah i know it's so strange to me it's hard when you're that young isn't it because your own memories are such little tiny snippets and you remember and we all remember things but for my dad you know i did i put him on a pedestal and i still do you know he's my hero and he always will be but yeah he went away and he

went away for his own reasons and as an adult completely understand that you know and he needed to do that but yeah I kind of shut down I think and I think I kind of I have learned in my life which has been really useful in my career that I can have these incredibly intense emotional feelings but they have to be buried not healthy but helpful in the short term yeah yeah but I think if you if your knowledge you know you have the knowledge that you do that I think that can help in just maybe not doing it or trying to do it too much is that the first time you you kind of recall that those early years where you think you might have just buried a set of emotions and not address them that that blocking out of it just to keep on keeping on yeah I think I think some of it is my personality but I think some of it was

circumstance that I kind of I don't like to rock the boat. I don't want to cause people problems. I want to always make sure everybody's okay. And I think that's a lot to do with worthiness. You know, feeling unworthy, potentially. Just so I'm completely clear in my own mind, because I don't want to make any assumptions. That feeling of like not feeling worthiness came from that dysfunctional family dynamic that's the first sort of hint you have of it I think so I think looking back you know I grew up in the 1780s and for me in the environment I

was in at that time it was really unusual that parents separated all of my friendship group they had to me what I saw as their happy family you know the family unit and I longed for that and I didn't have that and it made me different and obviously you know if I forward to today and I think it's probably rarer to have the family unit you know life has changed so much so that's how it affected me at the time it made me feel like yeah an outsider and a bit strange you moved to um runcorn with your mother which is um where the council estate is where you lived what that area isn't a good area back then yeah you know i mean runcorn is it's like a satellite town of liverpool and lots of people you know it's kind of like overspill and lots of people were out there

in this particular state that we we got housed in was it was built and it was obviously there were so many families that needed to be housed very much like today and it was this like a bizarre architecture and we have these huge round windows and then there are houses about we used to call them the lego houses because they're like blue and yellow it was you know i suppose at the time it seemed very fold thinking but i think unfortunately you know it was it was one of those environments of which there are still many where, you know, problems can occur because it's kind of set up. There are, you know, there are just opportunities, I suppose, for people to be quite discreet. And there was, you know, lots of people there who were struggling. And it was, I think it was knocked down.

I think they started knocking it down in about 1980 because it just kind of got yeah to run down i think when you um when you look back on your father's decision to leave is there any feelings of like i don't know animosity towards that decision to for him to leave your life i understand the separation but for him to then be absent seems like it was from reading your book the catalyst moment for other things to then happen has there ever been any animosity towards when you reflected on it as you grew up no really no they really have because i think you know just that thing of being a kid and your life is your life no so it's just that you get told something like oh okay then and i think when i became a parent and i think about my daughter and obviously i work away and

not you know um but i just yeah it's weird i don't think you're really fully i don't know you haven't fully understand your parents but i think you get a much better understanding of them when you become a parent you know but at the end of the day I think as a child you look up to these adults thinking you know they know how everything should be and how everything should be done and then when you become an adult you're like you know I'm 15 a year and a half and I still haven't got a clue so and I still feel like a child you And my mum always said, look like a teenager. And I was like, can I get it now? We're all just trying to figure it out throughout our lives.

You know, I don't think we can get to that age where we go, yeah, I've got it now. Dancing seemed to be your first love as I was reading through your story. Where did that show up? Where did dancing come from? You know, I think like so many young kids, you have this moment where you go to ballet or disco or whatever. The local, you know, it was in the local club or whatever. And I went not to ballet in town when I was so little, I can't even remember. But it must have struck a chord with me because when we moved to Roncon, it was, there was no nowhere mum could afford for me to do dance classes. So I had this period of time without it. We moved to Witness when I was, I think I was eight years old.

And that's when I picked up dancing again. And I think I'd really bugged my mum for years. I want to go back to dancing. I want to go back. I want to go back. And I did sports at school. I'm just very active. I think I was probably one of those kids who never sat still you know I was always outside I was always upside down or kicking a ball or something and dancing for me it was just a way of expressing myself and a freedom and it was almost like a safe safe place like many performers and I'm sure you've spoken to

people who are like this but I'm quite shy in certain aspects of my life maybe like in a social aspect and you know being at school I kept my head down I wasn't very academic I did okay but when I was dancing when I was doing something creative and being able to express myself I felt very comforted and free and alive so yeah dancing school was where i really felt in my element so so you became a very obsessive dancer practicer very meticulous yeah i think there's something about classical ballet on the training of that which there's a lot of discipline and it just really works for me and and even now you know I have to have an awareness of this that it's to have those parameters and to have that discipline

makes me feel safe I don't really know where that comes from but I am I'm very hard on myself and I kind of I think I'm a little bit of a workaholic because I feel like when I'm in a work space and I'm being very disciplined that I'm safe one might guess that um if parameters and discipline and that structure makes you feel safe then there might have been a time where a lack of parameters made you feel unsafe or a lack of a foundation made you feel unsafe absolutely i'm sure i'm sure i think there was a lot of you know my mom's a performer and you know it's it's so it's so weird now because obviously i find myself in a similar position but she'd be away an awful lot but there'd be times when i'd be staying with other people or you know having babysitters and you know maybe there was a little bit of instability

felt there and that would definitely make sense a bit of instability is this are you talking to talking about your nanny yeah yeah there was a little period of time where yeah my mum had employed someone to look after me who um you know she felt was was great person of the world but unfortunately you know the girl she was maybe a little bit too young to take on that responsibility and had kind of moved me out of our home and I'd moved in with with her mum and uh yeah it was a a little bit shady but yeah as soon as mum found out she put an end to it but I think I was very quiet about it because I was so little I think I was only about five so um I chose not to tell her probably didn't want to rock the boat what weren't you telling her um but that I wasn't at home

and that I wasn't being taken care of by something that is a little less light in reality well you know again i was so young it was i don't think it's something i've got over that i felt that's that was probably something that would affect you in a big way but at the time it was my life you recite this moment of just waiting for this person this person that was meant to be taking care of you um just not showing up on many occasions and you having to wait outside and weeing your pants at one point because you were waiting outside so long yeah i remember getting back from school and we have these hot damn concrete steps up to the front door and no one was home and yeah just busting for the toilet and yeah I woke myself and luckily that the neighbor came home and she took

me in and kind of cleaned me up and yeah so that's I mean again I was so young there's there's just these little flashes of memories of those things I think i think when you're when you're young you maybe don't it's not that those i think about my own life like it's not that those things don't aren't impacting you it's you don't you're not really aware of the impact they're having or the stories that they're they're making you write about yourself and about your situation um and then obviously oftentimes it seems that we including myself then see the consequences of it and in hindsight have to sort of piece together where that came from. But that's, I mean, when I read that in your book, I was, I mean, that's almost like criminal negligence to treat a child in such a way.

And I think about the departure of your father, your mum then departing to go and pursue her career and then you you're ultimately ending up on these steps you know urinating your underwear because of this negligent nanny and that's you know that that's where I think oh that is you know that must have been formative in to some to some degree yeah I mean you know I'm a big believer in therapy and I've been having it for many years and probably I only started to do that because of my time with the Spice Girls and how much of a head fuck that was but it's really interesting because you do look at your habits and the things that you do or why you do them and so much of it comes back to your childhood. Dancing was your first love um you you become very disciplined at that and eventually off you go to um study in london and that's where you find singing yeah which you

hadn't had you been doing it before you know because my mum was a singer and she had deals in the 70s she had a couple of record deals with different bands but you know it hadn't worked out the way she would have liked it to um you know bands but you know it hadn't worked out the way she would have liked it to um you know she'd be great but didn't get to those heights that all of us performers to get so I just knew growing up it's really really hard working in the music industry is really difficult so you know my young, okay, I want to be a pop star. But it's really hard. So I love dancing and I love singing. So theatre, because I love to be in theatre as well.

I went to performing arts college and I was pursuing that. And I'd sung a little bit, but I just, I never really had confidence in my voice. But there was this like weird thing of it just gave me so much joy to be more joy than dancing I was in college I was in my second year and we had these competitions that would happen every year and I was singing a song and it was the first time I just had a moment with an audience where they I just really felt this energy this transaction between myself and men and it was when i was singing and it that was it for me that was the moment it was like it is singing that is it that is what i have to do so eventually you um you and 400 other young women respond to a advert

in a magazine what was the advert advert? Okay, so what I saw to the stage in the newspaper was when you leave Performing Arts College, you're an actor, a dancer, a singer, whatever, you go for your auditions, the stage is where

you find your auditions. I found myself at an audition I didn't want to be at, handed a flyer for a girl band, and I'm like, that's it. That's what I'm going to do. You get handed a flyer. A lot of people are being handed that flyer did you know then that you would you said that's it that's what I want

to do did you know then that you wanted to be in a girl band or did you mean that's it I'm going to apply and I think that's more befitting of what I where I want to go it's hard to know exactly because of what's happened since then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But my telling of the story is, I mean, I just had a really strong feeling at that time that I was going to,

whatever this thing was, I was going to be a part of it and it was going to be something incredible. What did that fly say? I think it said something like, are you 18 to 24? I think it was like the wording of it. Street wise, can dance, sing, fun loving,

I don't know. But it was just basically an audition, an open audition. Anyone come along, put the girl band together, music management. And yeah, I went along to that audition and how did that go it went well i was recalled we had to dance and then we were recalled to sing and then we were all sent away and then we were we were called back but when we were called back i was ill and i couldn't speak let alone sing so um yeah i i missed my

first opportunity of being in this band you missed your first opportunity yeah so i was really sick i kept getting poduitis and i yeah i was really poorly when the recall happened and so i begged my mum to call in and just say give melanie a week i go betty should come and sing for you but they were like no we've already chosen the girls it's i'm afraid it's another town and there was lots of auditions that were known so it was like oh well wasn't meant to be but then a couple of weeks after that i got a call to say somebody hasn't worked out we'd like to see Melody again and then that was my chance to get in the band. Christ, that is a pivotal phone call. Yeah, it's bizarre. Yeah, and I think, I often think about the other girls who

had potential because that still wasn't the five that everybody got to know. You know, there was, I think there were three girls from the beginning of the band being put together who didn't end up being part of the final line-up of this bicycle. It's funny, isn't it? When you think back, even being handed that flyer, you think, what path would I have walked, potentially, if that person that day hadn't given me that flyer it's a really strange thought isn't it yeah it's a sliding doors moment isn't it but yeah I really

because often in interviews you'll be asked oh if you didn't do this you do and I'm like I have no clue funny I think about it because I there was an early early point in my career where I got a phone call saying um a day before, saying this 16-year-old kid that was meant to be speaking at this event had asked me to come and that sent me off in my career. It was where I got my investors from, that one talk. I think if they hadn't asked me to be there, how would my life have been different? And the weird thought, which we never consider, is that maybe I would have been happier. Have you ever thought that often often yeah you know i i wouldn't change my life obviously i'm so proud of the things that i've achieved and i have an incredible life and i absolutely do my passion you know that's my i've just had a weekend of it you know three shows

over the weekend and i feel blessed but with it has been some really tough time and sometimes I do I do think wow I think did becoming famous ruin my life did it ruin me sometimes I question that it's a hard one to answer isn't it because you don't know the alternative so you can't yeah but i think the thing is it's like you know it's also important isn't it to remember we're on a journey right what's the destination the destination is death no just to enjoy this journey and i remember the early days of the Spice Girls were the best before we released anything we had the most fun because it was this excitement what's going to happen you know what can it be and then when it happened it was incredible but there's a lot of pressures that come along with it

so everything starts to change in those early years then so before you've released any music you stumbled around trying to find management for a while right and then you recount stories in your book about some like dickheads that's made some just like awful comments to you can you tell me about that that comment was his name chick oh chick yeah so he was a financial backer so when we we were first put together by a management team and we were with them maybe for about a year and Chick was, yeah, the financial backer of these original managers. And he'd commented on the size of my thighs, which was something that really shook me because I went to a performing arts college, which was predominantly a dancing college and you know the body image was an issue there there was there were girls with eating disorders I'd been you know I'd been a witness to that in my life but yeah it never affected me personally um you know and I'm a

teenager probably a bit of weight moving away from home not really eating as well going down the pub and I was quite fluctuated a little bit but it was never something that really bothered me it was just well I'll put back a little bit lose a few pounds but somebody actually commenting on the way I looked when I was going into a career where so much of it is about how you look really affected me. Did he make that comment in front of people? He made that comment in front of the other girls. There's something about, there's something about

when you're trying to fit in, when someone points at something which makes you different or that might make you feel like you don't fit in. And from just listening to your early don't fit in and from just listening to your early years where fitting in and feeling worthy was so important to you for someone to then in a group of people where you where you belong those that that band to say this is why you don't fit essentially with that comment I can't think of anything more more

hurtful for one's self-esteem especially the young person because you know i think about it i was probably 19 at that point which at the time you felt you all grown up and back college going out into the big wide world you were a child you know you're still you've been so vulnerable well victoria said to you that he had said comments to her about her weight as well or her appearance yeah i think you know it was it was very much at that time you know i went to dance college so teachers would say you need to enslave you know what's that stomach do there i mean i've spoken to dancers recently about the culture of that because you know um recently there was a lot there's people i talked about in the gymnastics world and there was definitely a culture within dance which was very cruel and heartless and shaming body shame um which is changing but you know dance teachers there

are some really lovely nurturing ones out there but some of the best dance teachers are horrible you know with i mean carrot and stick isn't it it's quite an old-fashioned way but it worked in some ways but it's very damaging did it change your behavior that that comment from him did you notice a change in yourself at all after that definitely that was the catalyst that was the catalyst for me to it was like a wake-up call it was like if i want to do this if i want to be a pop star and you have to this was like the mentees as well so it was you know body image was a very different thing there we have thank god there's so much more body positivity now how you know but back then it was all about being stick thin and I felt well

if I'm going to do this I have to fit the mold and so then that was it was just it was it was a gradual thing but it was like the eating and the exercising and that's when that's when it began yeah from a comment like that which he probably didn't get a second thought you know isn't that crazy it's crazy we never really appreciate that one comment can have such a profound impact and change someone's um the trajectory of their health or their well-being in such a significant way just one comment yeah just a few words yeah you know i think it's a bit of a trigger isn't it you know so that happened and i think obviously i was feeling vulnerable and it maps your confidence but then it's kind of i think it's like a little

chain of events that leads you down that road right you know so that maybe was the little start of it the first domino to fall yeah on that journey trying to find new management you you stumbled across simon cowell as well and he he must hate when you recount this story because it's so funny because he this is a thing right and brother remembers things differently because he remembers he said yes but we said no to him so basically we got to the point where we were going to record companies we were looking for record deals so we left the original manager and we had some demos, demo tapes, and we were going around meeting managers, meeting record labels,

and most people were very positive. We got very positive reactions, but we remember Saham insane. He was interesting. Yeah, but he recounted it differently. So that's pretty, isn't it? Obviously then it was the 90s. He was a record company exec.

He wasn't known to the wide public. At this point, when you're going around trying to find management, how are you providing for yourselves? Where's the money coming from to sustain the band? And was there ever a moment where you thought, fuck this, I'm going to... No, never, never, never. So when we were with our original management, they did give us a little bit of good money.

They put us up in a house. I think they gave us about 60 pounds a week which because we weren't paying for our accommodation at the time you know we could make ends meet um but when we left them i think i went to stay with a friend back in sicko where i've been to college so i was like staying in her spare room and then there was a period of time where melanie and jerry were homeless they were doing a little bit of time where Melanie and Jerry were homeless. They were doing a little bit of sofa surfing. Yeah, and Eva went home to her mum's place in Finchley and Victoria was back at her mum's place in Hertfordshire.

So yeah, it was so lovely. I remember we'd go to Eva's mum's place and she'd do loads of toast for us and muffin tin for you and that would be breakfast. And yeah, we were just, we never thought thought it was never an option to give up we were on this journey and we were going to make it happen how long was that period between you leaving your initial management uh ultimately when you found simon fuller and you know that kind of it began with virgin how long was that how big was that gap?

It wasn't as long as a year. Okay. Beginning year. It was maybe about eight months or so. But we had somebody who was, you know, very kindly looking after us. So what we'd done before, we left our original management.

We talked our original management into putting on a show. Okay. So we did that. And then we met some writers and producers and publishers. And we made some contact. And we met some writers and producers and publishers and we made some contact and we kind of knew all the Healy Ruggaberry, but we just thought they saw how with them and we did that.

And so we pursued that. And we were with Mark Fox, who is head of publishing at BMG at the time. And he kind of took us under his wing and would take us out for dinners and he'd ask to meet people. And that kind of got us on our road because and then you met simon fuller you did talk to me about that and how that changed things it was really interesting because we'd been it's so funny isn't it we really did take mustard into our own hands and we talk about auditioning like you know we were this unknown

girl band everyone was telling us girl bands don't work but we were out there going right is this manager good enough for us and so we just we just have the attitude that we've got something very special and we're not going to undersell it or ourselves and which is wonderful you know even if any of us had any doubts about it we were like no this is the way it is and i think that real determination single-mindedness is a really important part of succeeding. It's like, no, there's no doubt this will not fail. So we went out there and met these people. And Mark Fox is introducing us to some writers. We met Matt and Biff, who we wrote Wannabe and To Become One, and We Also Met Absolute, who we wrote Who Do You Think You Are Too Much, with those guys.

And they were managed by a guy called Pete, and he was in Simon's offices. And Simon heard the music and wanted to meet us. So he was the first person who approached us. And eventually you signed with Virgin? Virgin Records. Virgin Records, yeah. We gave everyone the runaround,

and we got their money up and up and up and up as you could in those days and we just loved Virgin it was an incredible team and

we just had so much fun with them they really shared our vision great A&R Aisling Newton you know obviously Spice was such

a great album as is Spice World so yeah it was like a match made in heaven you you recount that moment that simon fuller gave you your first um 10k check i believe and this is before you've released any music right so this is like a is this a signing bonus so we we got like um you get a advance when you you know when you look times you're not so much these days it's changed so much but yeah you get the chance and we hadn't seen like what we would deem as proper money and that was proper money all them zeros what did you do with it um i think you know i did

my first one no i don't you're not First thing I did. I do know you went and got some Nike shoes. I mean, I had the best shoes. The good opportunities I saw were a chair, right? Yeah. I remember being on this kind of stairwell in this party, giving me a chair, a $10 work chair. I went down to Oxford Street, Jetty Sports,

and I bought the Nike Air Max that I've been, like, yeah, I've had my eye on for weeks. I've made it. And what did you do with the rest? Just leave it in the bank? What did I do with the rest? I think I paid for some driving lessons. Mom? Yeah, I paid for my rent. And I think pretty much when you get an advance, whether it's with the record company or publishing, it's your living expenses, you know, and you're a young artist and you've not released anything.

That's kind of what it goes on. How quickly did things move from the point of getting that check on that stairwell to Wannabe, the first single, taking off? How quickly was that? Gosh, you're really testing my memory now. I think, I want to say it was around Christmas time when we got the check. And then Wannabe was released in July of 96. So maybe about six months.

Six months. It's not very long time, it it's not and it's from what i read the wannabe didn't take a long time to record either for a single note and it was definitely under half an hour busy this we kind of disagree was it 15 minutes was it 20 minutes i mean it was kind of thrown together it was was it ever going to be a song we weren't sure We were just kind of being sinny. And Matt and Beth, who are incredible, just obviously made it into something

which it went to number one in 37 countries. I mean, I don't think I even knew there was 37 countries. So, what? That's crazy. Yeah. What does that feel like? So, you release that that single then you start getting the the murmurs the noise the the world starts vibrating a little bit what is that what is that

like we had big act we probably had big ideas above our station before we should have done but it helped us our original manager of all was like don't get too big for your boots you know you haven't done anything yet you need you've got work to do we're like we know we've got work to do but we've got something to do and we're going to make this happen so we were always like we felt we were very important and very special and when other people started to think that too one of you was released it was still early days but we released our album in japan because at the time there was no internet so artists would release music in different territories at different times so you could kind of catch up with yourself with your promo you were able to do it i'd like to say you had

time to do it but hey there's only seven days in a week our schedule was insane but we started in Japan and one of you went to number one while we were in Japan so we didn't really get a sense of what was happening at home and I think when we flew back to the UK we were in Japan for about two weeks when we when we flew back everything had changed and that was it when it was when people really did start recognizing us in the street yeah it all started to yeah increase at that point and how did that feel at first it was so exciting it was kind of like it's always like you put in a like in a catapult you know we've been doing all this while doing all this work you know and then you're gone and you're just on this side oh and it really was i was trying to make sure i had the dates right before because when i was looking at the the amount of time from that first single to the number one albums and the

meteoric global superstardom it feels like this much time i was like i'm sure i've got the dates wrong there must be like a decade like typo somewhere because it was just a couple of years it's you know it's not even a fault in years right one of these released in july 1997 jerry left the band in the spring of 98 where we were two shows short of our european leg of the tour so it wasn't a full few years that the five were together doing the thing you know it's that's mad i don't understand that right we got together in 94 that's when we all first met so together a couple of years beforehand but yeah yeah, by 98, spring of 98, Jeremy had gone. We went on to do our US leg of the tour as a full piece.

We come back, Menly and Victoria had their babies. So obviously everything started to change by that point. It was a very different chapter in the lives of the Spice Girls at that point. In my head, the Spice Girls were like two decades. Which one got me the most? Yeah, maybe that's why. Maybe the music lasted, obviously. But when I was reading that, it was like two years.

I was like, what? How is that possible? Two albums. And a movie. And a world tour. And yeah. And all those MTV music videos that were playing in my house constantly. Because of my sister.

Yeah, blame your sister. I listened to a couple couple the odd CD when no one was in the house but that's my podcast we can edit that out um but but when you think about why you were successful because there were a lot of other girl bands at that time and there were even other girl bands that had a similar fundamental message message of empowerment and as you call it, girl power. I think you can't say that anymore. I think that's a bit of a, people don't like me using the word girl, but girl power and feminism and female empowerment. Why in hindsight do you think that you broke through

and these others who were there before you and in some situations were much better placed, why did you win i think the stars were in alignment whatever the magic was with that dynamic that we are so different that we are quite strong in our individuality that we made the decision to dress how we each felt comfortable you know girl bands before us had coordinated their look or had a certain look and we realised that didn't work for us. We wanted to make pop music. We loved pop music. We love so many genres, but we felt like there was a space for a female

band. You know, we kind of looked at bands like take that and you kids on the bot and there was no girl bands doing that and that's what we wanted to do and I just think just all those little elements a lot of them accidental you know our nicknames which we never came up with it wasn't a marketing idea it was top of the pops magazine Peter Lorraine who was editor then at the time just thought it'd be really fun to give us some nicknames and they stuck and they became part of the brand you know and they still live on to this day i mean in the us we're known mainly by our nicknames so yeah it just starts like i say it feels like they were just in alignment it was meant to be we had this idea that something was going to happen,

but I think it was raining stars. Timing seems to be quite important in hindsight as well. When you think about where the world was, was it ready for this message? Was it ready for a band like this? Because, you know, if you'd been maybe 10 years earlier, maybe it wouldn't have worked out or 10 years later. But it's funny, the case of timing.

And then even when you think back to being handed that flyer, the timing of that, it's quite serendipitous. And, you know, the butterfly effect of just these things linking up and can be quite spooky. Yeah, it really is. You know, you're right. At the time, it was the 90s. It was a period of growth in the uk you know it was quite a positive time for the country we just kind of come out of the grunginess music and indie was big here and you know we can't you know say oh you know you're well from female

empowerment yes we we brought that this was something that was bubbling and moving and changing and we were just really fortunate that we hit it at a time when more and more people were getting on it you know um and i think because you know people often talk about feminism at the spice girls and it's like we feel like you know we were young we had a point to prove we wanted to be a girl band for girls and we wanted to talk about female empowerment and how girls could do whatever they wanted to do no one was telling us we couldn't do something and it enabled us to take feminism and make it more you know palatable to the younger audience you know we had fans of three years of age a pop band or a music act it never happened before

you know and even now you know it's amazing i do these shows and i go out and i do show those stuff and i do cover the spice girl songs and there's so many young kids in the audience loving and re-discovering the spice girls and it's it's incredible it still captures their imagination that um that pressure though people often talk about the pressure of being in a band but the pressure of being in a girl band at that time especially when even you know the media were were very vicious and there wasn't an awareness around the impact of words on mental well-being and how that can impact people um strikes me as being an even more difficult time

than today of being in well we have social media now which is also an exacerbating factor but talk to me about the the pressure of public scrutiny back then on young women you're right you know the tabloid media were brutal i think things have improved not that much i mean it is quite shocking now when i look back of articles from the 90s and northeast just like the wording that was used i think they're just a bit more sneaky with it now you know we're still saying the same things but in a slightly different way but back then it was just i mean i called, we all got called, but terrible, horrible things. And as a young person, I think that anyone, and you're right, you know, the generation now have social media to deal with it, which I think is equally as damaging, if not more

so in many ways, because you can't escape it. Can you, you know, your phone is, I wake up, first thing I do, look at my phone. Luckily now I have the skin of a rhino. I think I'm sort of anyone saying anything negative about me, you know, I can usually push it off. But yeah, back then it was, I was challenging a lot of the other ones, you know, who am I? These people are telling me I'm this thing. You know, they're criticising me. I'm not talented enough. I'm not pretty enough.'m not pretty enough I'm stupid I'm a loud mouth and this and it's like who am I am I who I want to be am I who they tell me I am

should I be who they want me to be it's so confusing and that was I think another you know we were talking about these different elements that got me. Because I became very, very ill around 2000. And, you know, the eating and the exercising and from chicks words and certain things that had happened, being photographed constantly, but being commented on constantly was a big factor in that journey. Your demeanour changed when I mentioned that. Did it? factor in that journey. Your demeanour changed when I mentioned that. It looked like it, genuinely, I could see how that phase of your life had impacted you, just from the

change in your... I'm not sure. Yeah, it's... I don't think anyone can ever, you know, it's really hard, you know, because I'm always in this place where there's an element of guilt attached to my success. And I think that's exacerbated by people going, were you famous? You know, you put yourself in that position and something I explore in the book is you know people

who want to be famous probably are the people least well equipped to deal with it because you know we're looking for exception and love and adoration and to be that vulnerable and to put yourself in that position only to be criticised is, it's a bad combination. And I think, you know, with the tabloid media as it was back then, I mean, it's horrific. I mean, I've looked again recently because, you know, there's been certain reasons why I've been having to read old articles. I launched a show. Shout it in. I am, I mean, I don't want to jump forward too far with the story, but I did suffer with a couple of eating disorders,

one of them being binge eating disorder. I was very depressed and I gained some weight. I've been underweight for a long, long time. And my body was just like, it was just a reaction. It was like, I am starved of any nourishment. Yeah, but heal me, feed me. And, you know, obviously the big change in that made me gain weight. And it wasn't an enormous amount of weight. I think I went from a size, probably about a size, I suppose it just sounds like a lot if you say like a size 6 to a size 14. But then a size 14, I don't think it's even the average size of women

in the UK. And they called me sumo space. I mean, how disgusting is that? So whoever this person is, I'm not going to say it's a guy and maybe it was maybe it wasn't the evidence probably was but they thought it was appropriate to call a young woman who actually had been open because she kind of felt she had to be about her issues and it was okay to call her sumo space how sick is that it? It's really fucked up, isn't it? I mean, working with Hampton. And, you know, working has happened in the world.

But in my world, at that time, when that happened, it was devastating. Gosh, it's disgusting, isn't it? They couldn't do it now. They couldn't do that now. Like I say, it's all a bit reading between the lines now, isn't it? that first comment from Chick sends you, changes your behaviour. Was there a moment where you look back on and go,

that was maybe this, not the second catalyst moment, but my behaviour took a really sharp turn there in terms of like exercise and obsessing over food and fitting in? Yeah, I think it was, it was more when we were in the public eye, being photographed,

doing lots of photo shoot. Yeah, you know sort of is linked to a need of control isn't it because things at that point felt very much out of our control even though we we you know we wanted to take this thing you know in our own hands and we wanted to make it happen um i think because when things with the spice girls became uber successful which was very quick after the release of wannabe were flying gone over the world you're in a bubble you're in this crazy bubble and it's great you're having an amazing time well you can't you can't do things on your own terms anymore but you can control what you put in your mouth or you can be in the gym where people only leave

you alone because i don't don't bother if she's in the gym you write about how you turn into a robot what do you mean by a robot okay so i think i found it the only way i could survive the experience with by switching off my feelings um i had to eat a certain way i had to exercise a certain amount and i couldn't not do it so i had to switch off any of those like human emotions or any of those just even listening to my own body this there was a task that had to be done and i had to complete it I'm a robot, I must do it and that was kind of my inner dialogue And you recount this

day of reciting that while being on a running machine which I found very almost quite unnerving and quite strange looking in the mirror and telling yourself that you're a robot That actually happened you were looking in the mirror I can completely remember being in the gym right now

in the treadmill, kind of in the middle of where I have treadmills. And yeah, that was my way of coping. To shut down, shut off. Just this body is just a piece of machinery that will do what it has to do. And there was no choice. That was the thing. There was no choice. That was the way it has to do and there was no there was no choice that was the thing there was no choice that was the way it had to be and it wasn't until I had which I by you know I imagine

was a break in 2000 when I just you know I hit that bottom and and that's when I can't fell because the robot wasn't working anymore have you when you think back at that young girl have you got how do you feel about her as an as an as an you know much more mature person now how do you feel about that young girl that was going through that can we stand the floor actually like you know it was the most incredible time of my life and the hardest. And as much as I enjoyed it, it was joyless, you know, because I hadn't seen Kurt and I was dealing with what I had to deal with. And living my dream and saying, time, it's a help, is what it is.

Because I wouldn't change anything. I'd change that. I'd change that I became the victim of an eating disorder and exercising obsessively. I wish that had happened to me. So I could have fully enjoyed the wonderful things that happened to me, 100%. You know, life isn't perfect.

There's always issues. There's always things we have to overcome. But it was fucking dramatic in how it went down. What would you say to her, if you could speak to her? I'd say sorry. I do. I should have said sorry.

But I did that to her. Yeah. I think I've been angry as well. I think I've angered other people i think i've aimed i know other people but i think as an adult we take this on for the tfia actions and you know i don't understand bitter and twisted but don't care there were people oh you know the tabloid media i don't want to bitch and run about the tabloid but you know, they probably need to be bitched and laughed about because they've been disgraced. But yeah, I just, I feel sorry.

I feel regretful. What would you say sorry to her for? For pointing the tree. I think her tree, actually. and it feels like i can i haven't got a guilt attached to what i was representing for what was really going on behind closed doors and you know what i'm such an honest person i can't i can't lie i'm still about lying and i i feel so dishonest if i'm not burying myself to people, but I was living the life. And that's probably the hardest part of it. That secret, the secret you're referring to is the eating disorder and the obsessive exercising, right?

The secret you were keeping. When you say eating disorder, are you referring to the binge eating disorder? Did that come after? That was in 80, yeah. Okay. So, you know and the weird thing is actually as you as you put it like that it's like i was in denial for

swell you know because there is a little voice that goes you can't carry on like this but then the other voice the bigger voice goes yeah i've got a choice and the first eating disorder i i started to um just to eat less smaller portions and then i started to eliminate food groups um to a put because i was terrified of and then i was terrified of carbs and then i wouldn't eat a banana because it's got too much sugar in it i mean i do not even know how i survived and i think often now I get so exhausted. I think it's probably two years of being malnourished. I lived on fruit and vegetables for about two years. And I was underweight.

My period stopped. You know, I kind of, I've always wanted to be a mum. But I had no choice but to live this life I was living. And I was jeopardizing the chance of being a monk how crazy is that just this compulsion and then it all comes to a head in 2000 when yeah I I think like a lot of and I'm going to say a lot of women but a lot of people really hate their bodies you know we oh i hate this we used to get asked in interviews but you know what's what's your favorite they won't do what you call them like your favorite attribute or whatever you know what

what do you what do you like least about yourself you know what stupid fucking questions why would you say why would you ever say never be negative in it in an interview never pull people towards your vulnerability you do that me oh i hate my my short stubby legs you know i mean just really focus on them um but yeah i i i hated myself i was never good enough nothing's good enough women do this all the time we pull ourselves apart you know i'm not funny enough i'm not clever enough I'm not pretty enough I'm not sexy enough all these things I mean fuck this body is amazing and I spent all of those years just hating it because it was what I wanted it to be but you are not your body you know I was talking with this weekend, I lost an older sibling a few years ago.

And we were talking about when people pass and, you know, and sadly he died of cancer. And we know in the last ages, people with cancer, it's awful to see them in that way. But I don't remember him in that way. I remember the essence of him. I remember how funny he was and how naughty he was. And it's not, I don't remember anything physical, you know, and it's just, we just need to get away from this physical being. What defines us?

What defines us? We are so much more than that. And I've completely forgotten what the question was, but I just got caught. No, no, it's so powerful. And it was linked to it all, all of that sort of suppression and self abandonment coming to a head in 2020,

2000. Yeah. Yeah. So exactly. And I, I'd spent years like trying to make myself small, you know, fit into the form that I should be to be doing the thing that I'm doing.

And it was getting me. And I know this is why I started talking about my body because I'm so grateful to my body because it took over and it's and it said to me we can't do this anymore you're not doing this anymore we are taking the control away from you and it was hard because from being very restrictive with my eating and being anorexic I started binge eating because my body it couldn't help anymore it wasn't getting enough fuel and I was depressed I didn't know I was depressed I had no one I that never even crossed my mind that I had depression I just knew I'd lost control over my eating and freaked me out because it was all about the way I look you know it was it was vanity I was like

but I'm eating I'm eating loads and you know I feel very grateful I was never bulimic I tried I couldn't make myself sick and I'm so grateful for that because I know it's a really difficult illness to recover from so I was getting bigger and bigger and that because I know it's a really difficult illness to recover from. So I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger because I was eating more and more and more. And then that was, it was the vanity that took me to the doctors as well as being really fucking scared because I didn't know what was going on. And I was struggling to get out of bed. And that was when I was diagnosed with depression. And that was my first step on the motor recovery you go to that doctor who ultimately diagnoses you with depression can you remember that day vividly I did I really do I remember sitting up saying this desk and I think I said everything

out loud for the first time about my eating about crying and nothing else I mean I didn't have the words I didn't know what anxiety was i didn't know what depression was so what did you say to him just because i want to get a color of what the symptoms were that you hadn't yourself pinpointed as well i was i was tired all the time i couldn't control my eating i mean i was i i told that myself because sometimes i'd catch myself mid-binge it was so it's such a compulsive thing I'd like yeah I just been in the middle of just eating and I'd be like you know and anyone and then suddenly I know lots of people have these issues it's like a cycle because you do it and

then you hate yourself so you do it again and then you just it just keeps you know Getting worse and worse and to the point where I had to go to the doctor But I felt like I was losing my mind. I felt like I was actually going mad and Yeah, and I didn't have the right words and I know they are not the right words that we use Yeah, but those were the words I had and Yeah, and he said But first of all we have to to deal with depression. And I was like, this weight was just lifted from my shoulders because it was like, oh my God, it's got a name.

It's something that can be treated. It's something you can recover from. And that was the beginning of a very, very long journey. Very, very long journey. A very long journey. Yeah. I think I'm still on that journey to be honest I don't think

I think depression is always there it's always waiting in the wings it's looming but it is for me anyway but I'm quite good at just keeping it at bay you learn the tricks and the tools to keep it at bay

you describe I believe the fear of that looming um depression or you know i guess the fear of going back to former ways or finding yourself in that situation has has been quite a scary thing is it a scary thing something you're you're scared of i don't want to mischaracterize your words there but is it something that sits at the back of your mind in terms of you know that you fear there might be that it's like a catalyst there could be one thing that could yeah yeah the thing i fear the most is depression because because I've always felt like there's a fire in my belly and even, you know, mostly at my lowest of points,

I can go, this will pass, we can do this. But there were times within my depression where I had doubted that. And yeah, that's my fear. I'm like, just a minute. Forget it, she's got me in there. My biggest fear is, it's that, you know, really overwhelming depression where you doubt if you can make it through

the end day. Do you have those moments post mainly where you didn't think you'd be, there was doubt whether you'd be able to make it through a moment. Is this post leaving the Spice Girls predominantly or was there moments throughout the experience where? It's never, we've never officially split up with the Spice Girls. Oh really?

Yeah. it's never we've never efficiently discussed this with bicycle oh really yeah we took that decision because there was so much press you know interest in us at the time so you know i was really really struggling we were working on forever which is the third album as a full piece without jerry and i'd worked on my son i recorded and I was having a really, really hard time and it was too much. I found the environment too much. And I think the girls knew me too well. You know, I was, I was dealing with these demons, these inner demons, and they, they could just read me like a book. And I just didn't want to be in their company because I had to deal with it myself, you know? So I did want to leave the band

but we we took the decision to never efficiently split up because we because we didn't want the press intrusion we were terrified because we knew I mean I stripped at once on a tv show I did a show with Frank Skinner and I used past tense I said when I was a size girl or whatever the wording I used was and the press jumped on it and there was camera crews like them half and they chased me down the road and yeah and it was just like we couldn't none of us could face and the you know the beauty of that is now we kind of feel like at the time we needed separation you know we'd be like this our lives had been so intertwined that we needed that space

but now we've had time to do that and grow and become individual individuals and mums and and have these separate lives we can come back together and we really enjoy each other and respect each other so we quite like that we've never split up you know well we've been always with Spice Girls when people say form a Spice Girl Iist spice girl i am a spice girl and we were always all these spice girls even victoria which i didn't get upstairs with chanladi she's still a very very important part of that show 2019 you're you're you know you recount in your book about how coming back together was actually a really pleasant experience and it taught you a lot about your previous time together in the Spice Girls but let's start with the point about Victoria then a lot of lot was written about that obviously when

press do interviews they're trying to twist your words and find something wow how can we turn them against each other like that's what that's the game right um so how how did you all feel when you know you knew that Victoria wasn't coming back to the group and you were going to be doing it as a full? Yeah, there was a few feelings about that because obviously we were gutted. But you would be. Yeah. Totally one of them. And we were scared because we thought, shit, are people going to want us as a full piece, you know, in a different configuration and the thing is you know let's not you know well

let's be honest here victoria is a huge international icon you know she has gone on to be something in her own right you know in the fashion world in the world of celebrity she's much bigger than the others of us individually um i don't think anything's as big as the Spice Girls you know we all feel that but without her it's like couldn't take us seriously um so yeah so there was there was different feelings around it the the wonderful thing about it was she was very supportive and it was really important for us to make sure she was so she was involved creatively you know we wanted us to sound everything off we wanted her to know exactly what we were going to do and it was such an incredible experience i it

felt like she was part of it anyway why didn't you i didn't i missed the story at that time but why didn't she want to be what was her public statement what was the reason public statement is because of family and commitments okay which is completely you know yeah understandable um but i think you know on a more personal level and i think this has been said i don't think she'd mind me saying when we did the olympics in 2012 yeah she had a really hard time okay it was she was petrified i mean we were all bloody petrified but to the point where it's worth it yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it was so, you know, it was a hell of a lot of anxiety in that performance that she was like, you know what girls,

I'm putting my dancing shoes up. Fair. Away. So, yeah, so we totally got, you know, we respected her decision. Yeah. But yeah, we're still sad about it. But you know what?

We went on to have the most successful tour we've ever done. And, you know, with her blessing, sadly without her. But we did it and it was incredible. And it really is truly some of my happiest Spice Girls memories. One of the things that I wish I'd asked Liam Payne when I spoke to him about One Direction and the group dynamic. And then what happens when the group are no longer making music at the time. I don't want to say split up because that is a bit loaded but when they're no longer together is um what what happens in the

outside world in the media is people then start comparing the like the post band successes and i think this can be very very toxic because you're then being compared against in the case of like one direction these four five other four other individuals you're then sort of measured your life then becomes measured against who did the best after it was measured during as you talk about in magazines where they said who is the hottest and who is the this yeah exactly um but then post you've got you know as it relates to one direction you've got harry styles who is just, you know, untouchable. And I wonder, like, no matter how amazing the objective success is of, like, another member, they're always compared to this person. How true is that in your case?

Yeah, it's true. It's so hard. It's so hard to go on and become become a solo artist because you like this is what like really drives me mad about the media right they tell you things you already know it's like you know just in you they just want the spice girls i know um but no i mean that isn't totally true but yeah yeah you're right it's really really hard because you get compared so much within the band and then post the band but it's like you know you have you have to have this logical brain don't you where you go how do we measure success you know

for me the areas of my life I am so happy I'm so successful and successful. And they need a bit of work. But I think as a fully grown adult, you have to go, stop comparing yourself. You know, other people might want to do it, but you can't do it. We all do it. We all look on Instagram. We go, oh, that's amazing. Bullshit. No one's life is amazing. Nothing going on.

So I think, yeah, it's just we go off don't be on little tangents sometimes but it's just to just come back home and yeah concentrate on the important things when you when you went on that the reunion tour what did you learn about your former experience from that tour i learned it was a shame that we couldn't fully appreciate it at the time because, and you're never going to change history and you're never going to change things moving forward because it's so chaotic and new at the time that you're just a little bit of survival mode.

You know, you're just kind of, oh, it's going to emotions. You know, I meet younger artists now, like I've been lucky enough to meet Billie Eilish a few times and I relate to her so much I think I saw her perform at Shug was Bush Empire and she was already way too big to be playing that incredible venue and all these predominantly teenage girls were screaming for her screaming up to her and singing her songs and it just made me go back to the Spice Girls shows I know she's very different as an artist but I just kind of felt this kinship with her and so at times I just look at her and I kind of feel like I know what she's feeling

and what she's going through so whenever I have the opportunity to see her I just kind of have this little connect with her which's like why does that make you emotional because this incredible thing happens to you and it's hard to appreciate it because it's so intense you know because that experience was so tumultuous for you because there were so many difficulties as you approached the reunion was there fear of you know the former issues as well as the good times but also the bad times coming with that always whenever us girls get together there's little triggers you know and i'm scared but i have to face them because you know i've learned to experience of the other things i've gone on to do with the girls we reunited in 2007, the Olympics, 2019, faced the fear and actually beautiful things happened.

So, yeah. And, you know, we're much more mindful of each other now as well because, you know, everyone had their shit to deal with. You know, it wasn't paying so many for anyone.

Was that too much of the reason you were inspired to write your book? It totally was. I mean, sometimes I still question it. I'm still questioning get as a sweep i i just i started to be like

my story's incredible you know i i'm just i'm just a girl i'm a normal girl from the northwest working class background and i have achieved my dreams and I go on to work in this industry, work as an international artist. I mean, it blows my mind when I think about what I've achieved, what I've continued to go on to do. And I want to inspire people. And I've, gosh, I've had hard times, you know, I've had times when I thought, I don't know if I can carry on. I don't know if I can carry on in this industry. I don't know if I can carry on I don't know if I can carry on in this industry I don't know if I can carry on in this life but I've done it and and I just really hope that people can read this book and have a laugh you know there's been some funny bits and some great memories but being inspired and also find some hope within it because you know I have I I personally for me feel like I've been at rock bottom at a time but I've worked some of my back up to like feeling okay and feeling great sometimes

so yeah I know I know people lots of people struggle with some of their issues that fact to deal with why what what stops you from writing this book sooner fear but scared a bit scared to go back to those times i knew it was going to be hard it was actually harder than um really yeah and recording the audio book which is something i definitely wanted to do that's a lot it's a lot because i think to write those words is one thing but then to speak them is something else and you can be interviewed and talk about these situations but kind of go through it chronologically is is really really draining wow you've just been right um reading the audiobook out in the studio you sit there alone in these um audiobook recordings in a small room is that is that same experience and you read through this this book that you've just

written um what was the hardest part for you to read i'm only halfway through okay i haven't even got to the really tough but yeah um but you know what's weird i wonder if you're advanced to sometimes it's the things you don't expect to get you get you i got really upset the other day when i started reading a part i probably remember which but it was but it really surprised me because i know there's like chapter 14 like ingrained in my brain chapter 14 and is when I talk about my eating disorders and and depression and and that the really lowest point and at my life I know that's going to be hard to read I've not got there yet um but yeah some of the other points have have been quite emotional and it's that is that part hard to read and recount now because of those feelings you described earlier where you have the sadness for that younger version of yourself

and you also said anger? Is that why it's hard to even read it out now? I'm curious to see how I'm going to do on chapter 14 because I think I've built up like this resilience to it as well because I have spoken quite openly in the media about depression and eating disorders. And I actually started talking about it probably before I was ready, because at the time I felt like, you know, being a Spice Girl, it felt like it was your duty that our lives were in the public domain. And it was such a weird time because there were so many things going on, you know. There was so much exposed about myself

and other people in the entertainment industry and there's a phone hacking. There were so many secrets and things that probably would never have made the papers. But, you know, they were listening to people's messages. We know that this is a fact. So, yeah, there was this, I felt like I had to spill my guts. And I was still very vulnerable and I was still very ill.

You know, I wasn't anywhere near on the road to recovery. You know, it was just the very beginning for me. So I've had to build up this wall around me. So I wonder whether I can speak about that now and it not affect me emotionally. I'm curious to build up this wall around me. So I wonder whether I can speak about that now and it not affect me emotionally. I'm curious to see. Is that all a good thing? I think it's a necessary thing.

You know? Yeah. I think some of the other points in the book, you know, talking about my childhood and my parents, they're quite new things. I've not really discussed them openly before. So they're quite hard. And it's also been effective to people.

That's what's been held about this book. It's not just about... That's like fame, right? Fame just doesn't happen to you, does it? It happens to everybody around you. And they didn't ask for it. We fed them. So, and then the guilt kicks in again.

There's a sort of guilt attached to fame i think where is your line in terms of sharing stuff this is something that i always think about um obviously i have a podcast so i talk a lot about my childhood and all the things that happened and i've always wondered you know there's being transparent and honest because it will help others that have gone through that experience and that's really important that's how we all learn you saying one thing can quite literally save lives um but where is your personal line in terms of because you kind of alluded to it there where there's things where you just can't maybe it's not the right time or i think you know what's really important with this book is it's my story and it's in my words and it's my perspective and i think the

line for me is you know it's not my place to tell other people's stories and you know to the point of hurting other people that that's i can't i i couldn't live with myself um but i know sometimes we hurt people unintentionally and now so that's probably my sheer around the book coming out now um it's not my intention to hurt anybody i've tried to be very careful um but obviously like your parents reading and you feel about things you know that's that's gonna hurt when one of the things as well that fascinated me was your relationship with money, you know, and this suggestion that you had almost guilt for your success. I've heard that a few times on this podcast, and it always seems to come from people that have a working class background. Can you tell me about that in your from your perspective i think for me it's you know i

all around me all of my family all of my friends families everybody works really hard you know really hard whatever you know world's day working it could be manual labor it can be you know i mean my dad god bless him he's in his 70s he's still traveling around the world like a young man and doing this crazy job doing super long hours and you know that my dad loves his job but it's you know it's a necessity to work that hard to put food on the table to paint the pearls right i my work can be hard it can be grueling but I go on stage and I sing and it's my and I'm very lucky to do it and sometimes I could maybe earn in a day what people in my family might earn in a year you know and so there's guilt it's housed when um when you think

about the the thing that made you successful the first time around you you talk about it a lot that and I talk about it as well that insecurities were one of my biggest drivers. They were this, you know, you're trying to fill some kind of void and you end up, it ends up resulting in perfectionism and overworking and all those things. How do you control that sort of,

those inner insecurities that, I could probably ask this question in a different way. Those things that drove you then, which ultimately are quite unhealthy and toxic and end up creating a lack of balance in one's life. How do you stop those things driving you now? How do you stop being toxic driven? you're so exhausted right yeah we've got the energy right to be that you know i i think the thing is you know we live in leh don't we and i'm a mum now so i have a different set of priorities i love my work sometimes i get the balance completely wrong you know i'm with the book and everything my workload is huge right now it's a school holidays you know i'm not around enough for my daughter so eating me up inside

but you know i i will find the time and we've got holiday funded and i i think it's just kind of if running from past mistakes that you know be driven but not to the point where it's detrimental the biggest mistake i made as an old person was i believed other people knew better than i did no one knows better than you about you just listen and it's so beautiful I've been through a show this weekend with like million people in front of me and I just look at them and I just think they're all into the essence of you you know because it because I think when you're a kid and obviously people have different circumstances but this essence of you has all the answers.

It's all you need, you know, and then life comes in and just like makes it all a bit out of balance. So I just like really encouraging people to just really, you know, trust their instincts. I've been thinking a lot about that lately. Because when I go up on stage and I try and give people advice, you know, sometimes people will often sometimes overcomplicate the answer. But as I've like looked back at my own life and what I'm hearing from you as well is that I knew the answer the whole time, but there was a narrative that persuaded me to ignore it. So sometimes that can be your immigrant parents telling you to go and become a doctor or a lawyer when you really want to just dance. And so you kind of place their narrative over the top of your own feeling and so and then the other one can sometimes be social media which tells you that you should be an x or a y or a z but inside of you i think it's really liberating to consider that you might already have all the answers if you just listened

and tuned out these other voices easier said than done super easier said than done almost impossible yeah and i think the thing is as well it's like because you think it can't be us yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe maybe maybe especially if the answer is happiness if it is material success then maybe you should go and be a doctor but if it is happiness which i think is the answer in the long term if you don't want to avoid a midlife crisis when you're in your doctor's suit at 14 you go what the fuck am i doing here whatever um maybe that is the approach to take but yeah someone say life is a series of chapters right so what's right at one point might change so i think that's you know that is the thing as well it's like okay a decision might be made and you're following a path and then at some point you're like you know

what this is working for me anymore so you can change i think that's i think that's really powerful to know i mean it's fucking scary and not everybody has the luxury of just going okay i'm gonna change my country i'm gonna move up someone in gym you know we've got to whatever but i think what's powerful is to me you have the power you just gotta find the way to do it yeah yeah the practical way to i think that's the most important thing um one of the other things i wanted to ask you about is when i reflect on my own early upbringing with my parents and and the model of love that they taught me not all great what impact did the model of relationships and separation of your parents have on your own model of of a relationship and love if any i think the biggest impact about my my parents relationship and breakdown of their relationship and my childhood has helped me is that I yearn for a family

I yearn for that security um and I I have a little girl I'm not with her dad and that was really difficult because I didn't want from my little girl what had come to me So yeah, I think I'm always looking for that environment that I don't feel like I've ever really had. We have got one last question for you. So the last guest asks a question for the next guest, but they don't know who they're asking the question to. So they write a question in the book. I don't see it on My Mother's Life.

I don't see it until I open the book. That was the last question. Okay, here we go. Interesting. Hmm. This is interesting because it's a question we've we've been asked once um before so it's interesting that it's come up twice um what is a pain that you enjoy having oh okay this is interesting um i've had a little emotional turmoil recently and I was in the gym and I was stretching to the point where it hurts but it felt good and I think sometimes and this is a little bit so calming I think like physical pain sometimes would alleviate like you know when I'm exercising

to the point of it hurting can help with my emotional pain you know exercise is a really interesting thing because you know obviously I have a difficult relationship with it in a sense because I did used to exercise acceptably which I don't anymore but I do exercise a lot and I do it for my head more so than my body at times you know it's really really important to me but i can feel so low and so tired and so lethargic and i can go to the gym i'm a changed person in that you know it's it's it's like a it's a miracle drug right that's the endorphins the seroton mass-produced whatever happens it's like when people say to me oh you know how do you encourage people to do exercise and it's like listen just go no pressure say i'll do 10 50 minutes and i bet you there for an hour

i completely agree that is when i was first when that first when that question first came into this book my immediate response was exercise. And I've never really thought... I was always curious as to whether there was an element of escapism there as well. And I'm always conscious about escaping issues. And then when you described it then as you're going through an emotional pain, and the pain of the exercise almost helps to relieve that, it's quite a curious thing because

i understand the endorphins and all the chemicals and stuff but the pain itself being a medicine is an interesting concept yeah the other thing i think with exercise is because you say about it because i've used running sometimes like that thing of running away you know if you're running no one can catch you you're running you're running right but it also makes you very present you know when you are running you are present and catch you. You're running, you're running, right? But it also meant you're very present. You know, when you are running, you are present. And I've actually done a lot of problem solving when I've been running. Had some little epiphanies as well.

So it's, I think exercises, you know, we were built to move. Let's do it. Melanie, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And your book is truly important. I think that's the best way to describe it

because the depth of your honesty and the uniqueness of your experience means that it offers so much to so many people. And even someone that obviously, I mean, there's probably almost no one on planet Earth that can relate to the experience itself. But the lessons that are within your book and the lessons that you've managed to pull out of those experiences are lessons that we can all

use to change our life and I said to you before we started recording that I usually don't make that many notes and I just I made way too many and it's really because I had so I gained so much from reading it about you know even my own life having not walked in your shoes that um really helped me in so many ways and i know that everyone listening to it is going to gain so much from it but i also really have to specifically thank you for your honesty around the eating disorders and your depression because that will quite literally save people's lives and you may never see it you may never you know get to hear directly from those people but i assure you of that it's definitely definitely will so well I thank you so much for saying that because I've been honest in the interview to say that I still fear releasing this book but you know what if it if that is the case

and to hear that from you then I feel good I feel good about it and getting out there thank you