The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Mia Khalifa's Heart Breaking Reality Of Being Controlled By The Adult Industry

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

In this new episode Steven sits down with the Lebanese-American media personality, Sarah Joe Chamoun. Sarah entered the adult entertainment industry in 2014 under the stage name ‘Mia Khalifa’. Despite only being an actress in adult films for 3 months and only earning $12,000, she quickly became one of the most searched-for-performers in the industry and gained huge attention. Since leaving the industry in 2015, Sarah has worked as a sports presenter, OnlyFans model and in 2020, she guest appeared as herself in the Hulu show ‘Ramy’. In this conversation Sarah and Steven discuss topics, such as: Sarah’s battle against insecurity and search to find self-confidence The reasons she entertained the adult entertainment industry Her attempts to move away from her past and how it still impacts her The predatory tactics of the adult entertainment industry What she has gained from her therapy journey You can follow Sarah’s Demi and fine-body jewellery brand, Sheytan, launching June 2023, here: https://bit.ly/3OjEVAr Follow: Instagram: https://bit.ly/438alxX Twitter: https://bit.ly/42MroWs Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop. I didn't... Are you okay talking about this? Um... Can we take a break? Mia Khalifa. Mia Khalifa.

Mia Khalifa. Mia Khalifa. I'm Sarah. I'm Sarah f***ing Joe. Sarah Joe. The former adult film star. Now business owner and social media activist. With over 50 million followers.

Where should this story start? I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon. And then I moved to America and I was bullied for being Middle Eastern. It was around the time of 9-11. That was pretty difficult. Made a lot of choices that I can't take back. Your husband, when you're 18 years old, is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry. What did they stand to gain from that? Fetishization. I fucked up because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it. Do you know how dangerous and

predatory that is? When was your anxiety at its highest? The company going after me publicly. The major production companies prey on vulnerable young women. Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth, didn't eat, didn't leave my bed. It's following me for the rest of my life. But I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced. For people that are really struggling, how did you get out of that phase? Where should this story start? Where does your story start? What is the most sort of pertinent moment that you recall from your memory that is shaped the woman that is sat in front of me today it honestly feels like the last year or two that's that's where that's where my life started

and where I should start because the woman that's in front of you right now has been a work in progress and is still a work in progress. And I feel like I've been my like my most authentic and purest form of myself in the past year or two. Like the closer to today we get, the more secure I feel in who I am and who that person is. But obviously, there was a lot of other things that happened to get me to this point but yeah to answer that question like a year or two let's start at the end then um which is today yeah why why the closer we are to today the more authentic you feel to yourself why i'm i'm going after the things i actually want and I'm growing into my confidence.

And the self-assurance that I've gained from doing the things I love and accomplishing my goals has formed who I am. And it feels really good and it feels very validating. And it's just, it's never clicked before. And they always say like, oh, the confidence is the key to everything. Confidence will unlock everything for you. And I never really understood that because it's like, okay, where the fuck does the confidence come from? How do you just simply get confident?

And I have grown to realize that confidence comes from just accomplishing things that you want to accomplish and being proud of yourself. And that pride makes you feel confident. Like I, I feel confident even when I mess up now, whereas if I messed up five, six, 10 years ago, it would send me into a pit of shame, um, a really unhealthy, just downward spiral that would get me nowhere. Did you ever imagine being here? Did you ever imagine being in the state you currently are today? Happiness, confidence, et cetera, et cetera. And I don't want to put words in your mouth there in terms of the word happiness, but the place you are today in the recent,

over the last 10 years, did you imagine you would get to this point or did this seem unimaginable it seemed unimaginable for a while but my mental health was also not as strong as it is today um there was there was a lot of periods in my life where i couldn't see past 48 hours let alone 10 years it It was very day to day for a while. And I think that's why I'm so confident because right now, if you ask me what I can see in 10 years, I feel like I can answer that. I know what I want. I know what my goals are and what I want to accomplish. So yeah, even in interviews five years ago, when they would ask me, where do you see yourself in five years? I would always say, I have no fucking clue. I don't know where I see myself next week.

And what changed? Taking risks, honestly. Just taking a few risks here and there and seeing them play out for the better. And learning from my mistakes and learning what I want. And saying no to a lot of things to get to what I want, like job opportunities and things that didn't really align with what I thought I wanted in a year or two or five years or even 10 years as like my confidence started to grow and I started to actually see life plans for myself, taking risks and walking away from

those risks, either having them play out for the better or learning from the mistakes and learning, oh, this didn't work. This is what I need to do next time. Oh, this didn't work. I crossed my own, I crossed a boundary of mine and now I don't feel good. Now I know this is past where I should be pushing myself. A lot of trial and error. Confidence. Confidence is a through line throughout your story. Take me back to your earliest memories of lacking in confidence. Yeah. And because, you you know i came to this country from botswana in africa when i was a young young boy and i struggled i think we both struggled with um being accepted by the culture we had arrived in me and plymouth only black kid curly hair trying to figure out why my hair's not straight relaxing it chemically all the time um why were

the only black family in this all white school, etc, etc. And then that battle with like, the lack of enoughness, not feeling like I was enough and what I did to try and make myself feel like I was enough. But take me back to your story at the earliest moment where you struggled with not feeling like you were enough or confident enough. I mean, it does. It's not even coming to America. It's being in Lebanon. There was colorism there. I was the darkest one in my family. There was colorism at the school that I was at. I felt like a bit of an outsider because I was darker than what the beauty standard for a Lebanese girl is, which is light hair, light skin, light, light, her skin, all of undertones, dark hair, green eyes. Like that's the epitome of a beautiful woman in Lebanon. And then I moved to America and that just got, it went to the extreme side of that. I was definitely one of the darkest kids. I was bullied for being Middle Eastern.

It was around the time of 9-11. That was pretty difficult, especially since it was in Washington, D.C. And Washington, D.C. was heavily impacted by 9-11. The Pentagon was hit. New York is not that far from us. It's about four hours. Like so many people in my school either had family and parents that worked at the Pentagon. It was a lot of bullying that then turned into internalized racism. And all I wanted to do from then forward, like you said, you wanted to relax your hair. You wanted to you wanted to assimilate and fit in. I also wanted the same thing.

And I just held that in and it turned into internalized racism. How did that go because i i often reflect and i'm i think it's taken me time to look back in hindsight and realize what i was feeling versus in the moment you're kind of just in a state of like defense it's like how do i get through today how do i get these people to like me versus you know and i look back and think no man you had so much shame like you were carrying around shame and insecurity um how did that girl at that time so you how old are you at this point seven ten eleven um eight nine eight nine okay and how how were you aware of your feelings i guess is the question yeah yeah yeah very much

so i think i think yeah i've always been an introvert and very aware of what I was going through and angsty. And even like going into my teen years, I've always been aware of the fact that what I was feeling is shame or what I was feeling is I'm not feeling like I'm enough. I feel like, yes, I've always been aware of that feeling. There was also confusion with it, but I think self-awareness has been prevalent the whole time. What was your relationship like with yourself in those teen years? I was very hard on myself. I was very angry at myself for not fitting in and for not being a certain way. And yeah, just I did not like myself. I didn't like the reflection in the mirror and me not liking the reflection in the mirror obviously affected my confidence, my self-esteem, everything. So in turn, I also didn't like the choices that I was making, which made me not only hate the reflection, but hate the person that I was with at the end of the day. The choices you loved yourself.

Like relationship choices? Relationship choices, lifestyle choices, anything, anything. What are some of those so in the context of relationships from doing this conversation with multiple people i've i've started to sort of piece dots together around if your self-esteem is lacking you might become a people pleaser yeah in your in your work so you might you know be exploited by your work and you might not get what you deserve in your job is there anything else that you've seen as a symptom or a consequence of having real low self-esteem that people might be able to relate to? Like for you.

So much. It's such a broad spectrum because you can either turn into a people pleaser or you can turn into an insufferable. A people pleaser on the surface level. Everyone loves a people pleaser. They want to please everybody. But the downside of a people pleaser is They want to please everybody. But the downside of a people pleaser is they want to please everybody. They have no boundaries with themselves or with other people. They don't respect their own boundaries. They don't respect others' boundaries. If they're people pleasing

person A and what person B wants goes against what person A wants, they will find a way to please both of them. So a people pleaser also turns into someone who lies, someone who deceives, someone who is a habitual boundary crosser with themselves and with other people. Like it's, there's a spectrum to it. I would say I was definitely a people pleaser. I also sought validation from. From people who's looking back on it now, whose opinion I probably shouldn't have respected back then, let alone today. is that was a that was a downside um made a lot of choices that i that i can't take back porn being one of the biggest ones but i feel like that wasn't even the first one the first one was getting into a relationship that i never should have been in with someone who was extremely abusive, extremely dangerous in the sense that looking back on it and, and having

the self-awareness and, and being able to call it what it was is grooming. It was, it was, it was just a relationship that I feel like a lot of girls get into when they're in their late teens. What does that happen? What do you mean? This really getting into a relationship when you're roughly 18 years old, wasn't it? The relationship started when I was 16.

Then went until I was about 20. And this person was significantly older than you? Yes. Yes. The age difference was had a play in that dynamic my low self-esteem had a play in that dynamic um everything was just kind of like 16 yeah this person's double your age, no. It was about a 10 year age difference. Okay. And at 16, what were you, when you looked forward to your future, had you asked yourself that question about, you know, what happens in 10 years time?

Oh, no, no. I wouldn't have known what happened in a week's time. It was, I mean, I got, I got talked into eloping to Las Vegas four days after my 18th birthday. So if you asked me where I see myself in five years, I don't know. I would have looked at you with doe eyes and said, I don't know. And then looked over at him. Where do you see me in five years? Like, I didn't have a sense of self. So I attached myself to someone who was more than happy to abuse that. And someone who could see that and see someone easily manipulatable.

Yeah. But at the same time, eager to please. So yeah, it was just the perfect storm. Perfect storm. Yeah. You got married at 18. Yeah. Even that is uncommon to say the least.

Yeah. Do not recommend it. So when you say that this, you know, this person clearly took advantage of several things that were present in you, whether that was low self-esteem or, you know, just general inexperience and naivety of being a young woman. Which direction in life did they push you towards? Did they push you towards becoming a really good partner to them or did they put you push in a professional direction or was it did they pull you towards them themselves yeah it was there there was there was no encouragement

there was no pushing towards anything it was an extremely unhealthy relationship and i i even feel weird calling it a relationship because the dynamic was not one of a relationship it was not one of a relationship. It was more one of someone who saw a toy to play with. They were there. The industry they were in is probably not the one that you're thinking of. They were in the army. So it wasn't even it had nothing to do with the porn industry, but it also had everything to do with it. They were the ones who kind of put that whole world in front of me and encouraged it. And they encouraged it.

Oh, very much so. Your husband. Yeah. I struggle to understand this. So your husband, when you're 18 years old is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry it started off as just online but then eventually yeah when when i was asked to to i was given i was given a business card and told to think about it I went home I left it off and the consensus was you should do it I think it would be great that's what I mean okay so you're

um I read this story you were out out at lunch somewhere someone a guy walks up to you when you're how old 20 and gives you a business card and says if you ever want to consider getting into the entertainment industry here's my number. You take that home. I was wondering this when I read about that part of your story. What happened post that business card? You know, because I was thinking when she was married. So, you know, I've got a partner.

My girlfriend comes home and says, a man's come up to me in the street and given me a card and made me an offer like that. My, I'm going to be honest, my natural disposition would be to like fucking burn the card yeah like well they were also unhealthy had mental health issues that i don't know if they've ever addressed but it's a sickness. And they were not the right. The whole point of this is when your relationship with yourself isn't right, you are not going to find the right person. You're not going to choose the right person. You're not going to choose someone who wants the best for you or will bring the best out of you. Because you don't want that for yourself.

What were they getting out of it you doing that you accepting the invitation from that business card what did they stand to gain from that fetishization really that was it so there wasn't a commercial element or anything like that for them do you forgive that person no i forgive myself yeah yeah do you think there's a need to forgive people in life um i think you need to forgive yourself for if someone has crossed your boundary, you need to forgive yourself for letting that happen, for giving them a position in your life to hurt you like that. Me telling you that wasn't to explain or shift blame.

It was to give context as to where I was mentally. How would you from from that point onwards from 20 years onwards then for the next couple of years when you look back at the mere um Sarah Sarah yeah do you prefer to be called Sarah yeah yeah but it also it's not I don't take offense to I did I did a while ago but I don't take offense to it or I don't feel like my name is actually Sarah. It's either or. You prefer to be called Sarah? I do.

Yeah? Yeah. Okay. So that Sarah, through that period of your life, characterized by low self-esteem, people around her, capitalizing on that in various different ways, you, in your own words, not knowing better at that time in your life. At that point in your life, 20, 21, 22, 22 you go and study right so you you study at university again with the aim of pursuing some kind of academic academic or professional pursuit and what was that history history yeah didn't really see even then i didn't see like a like a future doing anything I just thought I really enjoy studying history felt like watching a movie like it I I'm enamored with like it it's my favorite subject it felt like

the easiest thing um the second easiest thing is like psychology oh I love psychology yeah exactly they're the interesting ones they're the juicy they're the juicy majors um I didn't see myself doing anything other than whatever I had going on the next week and then I guess the furthest I thought ahead was I guess I'll work in archives or work in a museum or something I didn't have a plan like oh I want to be a teacher or something I've heard you talk about weight loss and weight related issues attached to the self-esteem conversation what role did your weight play in in all of this and the self-esteem and the confidence and body image issues and all that? I think a pretty large one. My weight now still fluctuates. And the more that I've worked on myself in therapy, the less that bothers me and my, and it affects my relationship with myself.

So even in the months where I feel like I do not look like myself, I don't feel like myself. I've let myself go a little bit. It doesn't affect me the way it used to 10 years ago. I don't fall. Yeah. I don't let it get to me as much anymore, but it did for a very long time because it was, I weighed like 60 pounds more than this, which is a lot. That's a huge amount of weight to lose. Yeah. I read that the ways that you lost that weight were slightly troubling. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't eating well. I wasn't exercising well. I had unhealthy habits. I was young. Therapy. You went to therapy. That's helped get to to where you are today yeah what role has therapy played in your life and when did you first start going to therapy oh the biggest role

2016 yeah the biggest role i don't i mean i'm still in therapy i don't see myself ever stopping really i cycle out therapists it's like yeah i i love it i love i love feeling like okay i'm ready i'm ready I love, I love feeling like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for a fresh start. I'm ready for someone new. I'm ready for a new perspective. It's, it's, it's a way to keep me grounded. Every week I have to sit down and analyze myself, my, my thoughts, my past. Like I have to dig down and actually come face to face with the decisions i've made the my ways of thinking my my my relationship with myself like there's accountability with therapy and i think that's the biggest impact i guess accountability yeah what are the when you've dug down and sought to understand yourself um what are some of the key takeaways you've taken from

from therapy as it so when i think about that question if i was to be on the receiving end of it one of the first things that comes to mind is actually my my ongoing evolution of understanding why i was so avoidant in relationships like always running away from any woman even if i pursued her and then she turned and said okay let's be boyfriend and girlfriend i would just bounce and i had sort of like toxic model of like what love was from my parents. But then also all the shame and insecurities, like, I think I'm ambitious. No, I'm being dragged by this need to be enough, right? So those are kind of the two, two top line ideas that I took away from my experience with sort of introspection. Are there any like big picture ideas that you've taken away from therapy that were epiphany moments, connected dots? That's a loaded question because I'm so grateful

for all of the information I've learned about myself. Like the dots I've been able to connect, like how being triggered by something a friend of mine says is actually related to the way that I felt like, the way that I felt ostracized on the playground when no one wanted to play with me. And like one little thing, even though they didn't mean it that way or or even had any malicious intent behind it, has then taken me back to

that 12 year old girl who just feels so alone and doesn't know what she did wrong and just wants to people please. And I think the best part of therapy is within a split. Have you seen That's So Raven? It's this show with Raven Simone on the Disney Channel when we were growing up. And she has these visions. She's a psychic. And she just like stares off into space. And then she zooms out and then she zooms back in and no time has gone. But she saw maybe a 30 minute vision play out. But she comes back and it's been like a split second. And that's how that's what therapy feels like. It takes me back. And I analyze that moment. And I understand that that

moment is not this moment. And my friend cares about me. And she's not actually trying to make me feel like no one wants to play with me on the playground just because she said, you can come if you want and not I want you to come. You know what I mean? I think that's that's the magic behind therapy. It gives you time traveling superpowers. Has it has it changed your perception of the period of your life where you enter the adult entertainment industry has it has it changed your perception how you yeah absolutely I spent so much time wondering why did I do this this is not me I was in it for such a short amount of time and the entire time I was doing it I was also asking myself every day why am I doing this what is

wrong with me what is wrong with me that's like the number one question. And I know what was wrong with me. I had low self-esteem. I had no boundaries with myself. I didn't respect myself. I didn't like myself. So many things were wrong with me. And all of these things anyone can work on. It is hard though. It's hard. Once you become self-aware, there's no going back. I think I cried more in the first two years of being in therapy than I ever did going through anything I did in my life, in my adolescence, in my early teens and anything. This is why a lot of people don't go to therapy. It's hard. It's hard. That self-awareness is like i mean it's it's it no and especially once you start realizing things about people in your life that you've kind of put rose-colored glasses on for all your life to make up excuses or to kind of change the situation in

your head so that you don't actually have to face what the reality was or or the fact that wow this is actually a really situation this person that i love who's supposed to support me who's supposed to be there for me was actually not that great in hindsight not even in hindsight in in 2020 sight in actual vision and the um the shedding that takes place when you can you become setting that's a great word yeah that's great that's exactly how it feels slowly letting these pieces go um what's interesting is when i read about your your life post the adult entertainment industry which was only a couple of months anyway all in all um you you sounded incredibly isolated so when i think about the

word shedding i think of all these people that you're letting go but in that period you sounded incredibly isolated. So when I think about the word shedding, I think of all these people that you're letting go. But in that period, you sounded like you were alone. I remember the story of you going to Austin and meeting your friend on Twitter, all those kinds of things. Take me to that period then. So you make the decision that that career is not for you. What happens the next, you know,

the next day, week, month post that? Fucking loneliness. I was living in an efficiency in an efficiency is not even a studio it's where this rug cuts off to that wall that is wider than what it was but definitely the length my toilet my bathroom sink was also my kitchen sink there was no stove there was a broken window that I had tape over and there was only one window. It was, it was like, it was, it's a room. I think they're popular in South Florida or like, I don't think you have them here. Cause I don't think they're

legal to like sell as living spaces. Very lonely, extremely lonely. But at that point in my life, loneliness was better than what I was doing before. And that, I think, was the start of the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest bit of confidence. That gave me the confidence to take the risk of moving to Austin and starting a new life. And I was so lonely. I was so broke. I was so lost. I was so broke. I was so lost. I was so confused. But all I was completely 100% sure of

was I don't want to do porn. I've never wanted to do porn. I'm never going to go back to that. And standing firm on my ground, in my morals, in my boundaries, in just everything. That was like the tiniest glimmer of confidence starting to grow, standing firm in my boundaries, even if I didn't know that was a boundary. I couldn't pinpoint it. I couldn't call it that. I didn't know what it was. I didn't have the verbiage or the knowledge or the self-awareness to call it what it was, but that was how it started I would not I if I if I hadn't moved to Austin I wouldn't have started therapy I wouldn't have that that was the domino effect of in a positive way in my life it could have gone a completely other way and it does for so many people and I'm so so so grateful that I was able to get out. That first domino falling, which took you to Austin

in that new direction. Was there a catalyst? Was there something that pushed that domino? Because I noticed that in this in this sort of timeline of events, you then at the same time separate from your partner around a similar time. And then you leave the adult entertainment industry. was there a catalyst? Cause those two things, those two decisions are huge decisions and they feel correlated. They feel like they're attached. I had nothing to lose. And I think that I also knew I need to get the fuck out of Miami. I was in Miami at the time and it was where everything happened and I just did not want to be there anymore. It was, it, it felt daunting. It felt

like walls closing in on me everywhere I went um was there like a catalyst day though something that happens that makes you go or was it just slow yeah it was it was I mean it was the day I met my best friend on twitter I had I didn't meet her that day on twitter her and I had been following each other for a while she was she posts memes I like them vice versa um she, her and I were talking about something. Oh, she said, I'm looking for a roommate. I'm asking around the office for a roommate. And I said, what if I moved to Austin? I don't want to live in Miami anymore. And then I started looking up, how do you move states? Like, what does it take? What does it require? What paperwork do I need for my dogs? Like all of

that stuff. And then within a month I was packed up and moved. And was that, was there a catalyst for you deciding to leave the adult entertainment industry, even though you were there for a couple of months? Was there anything? I think it was how overwhelming everything became so fast. Ah, okay. Like that, that was the reality check. It was like, it was like a light, like they, when they turn the lights on at the club at four in the morning. Like, whoa, the floors are sticky and nothing looks the same. This is not what I signed up for. It's not what I expected.

I fucked up. That's not a typical experience for an actress in that industry. No, not at all. It's a very atypical experience because you went from obscurity to number number one in an industry in in weeks yeah so you you got hit by a fucking truck yeah okay that makes sense okay you become a paralegal yeah for a very short period of time like six months tell me all about that. Nothing really much to say. It was for an insurance defense firm. It was pretty boring and it was very much like corporate. The insurance company that they represented was, it was Geico. So it was like a very boring thing. And it was,

it was just paper pushing. It was really weird to work there, especially since that was my first job where I did it. I did the application and I went into it thinking, this is the shift. This is me putting Mia Khalifa behind me. And this is me like trying to be a real human. Did not work. Everyone in the office recognized me. It was a very uncomfortable work environment.

Not because anyone was overtly inappropriate. It was just simply being in an office, knowing anyone who walked through did a double take and is like, are you? So that was uncomfortable. And then after that, I worked at a construction company just doing bookkeeping and office work. And same thing, I would have to go on a job site. And the owner of the company just made it so I like I, I can't go on job sites, it was a distraction, it was not a good idea. It was people would be that in that situation, people would be inappropriate sometimes. But yeah, I started to feel like a burden in the offices where I was. And I hated that feeling. And I was actually sitting at that construction job in the office when I was talking to Rachel in the DMs, like, I'm going to move to Austin. Let's do it. Anxiety. Yeah. Has that been a big part of your life for much of your life?

Yes, very much so. And I think that has been prevalent from the very beginning. The very beginning is in since you're a kid or teenager? Yeah, probably even in utero. I mean, my parents grew up in the civil war in Lebanon. And I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon, whether it be civil or the surrounding countries or whatever, but we left for a reason and it's because it was dangerous. So I think I've always had that. Like I jump when I hear a noise, I jump when someone who's been in the room for four hours with me speaks, even though they haven't because they haven't spoken in 10 minutes. Like I get scared. Like I I'm a jumpy person

probably because of that. When was your anxiety at its highest? 2019, 2020. Okay. So that's post Austin. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was when it was post everything, but it was in the midst of the porn company going after me publicly and re-releasing things and digging up footage that was corrupted in 2012, 2013, whenever it was shot and releasing it like it was new and that coming back into the news cycle and them just being extremely abusive and exerting and proving that they still have control over me because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it. Your life had had started to move. Oh yeah I was

married again. You're married again 2019. Where are you living at this point? I was living in LA. LA. Yeah. I was living in LA. I was doing my own thing. I was starting to figure out what it was I wanted to do and where I want. Like things were really good that year.

It was the year I had that little cameo in that incredible show Rami um that was that was really that was a huge moment for me and I'm so grateful for that moment and I'm so upset that that moment was kind of overshadowed by all of the negativity that came from um the the porn company in the subsequent months the porn company um coming after you and attacking you not something you would expect from a company a billion dollar company at that yeah it goes to show you how petty and personal it is um because the people who are behind it aren't aren't exactly the CEOs it's it's the board pseudo producers who who don't like that I'm out here talking about my experience it it's very much individuals not the company but these individuals do have the power to speak on the company's behalf what are they threatened by i think they're threatened by like you said earlier

most people in my position aren't in my position because they this is the outcome that the girls want who enter the industry most of them who enter the commercial porn industry or the mainstream porn industry. They they want the fame. They want the infamy. They want they want all of that. who is fully aware of what was happening and is fully aware of what is and isn't ethical and has the platform and the resources to speak on all of those things. What is your opinion of the industry now? I have a very unfavorable opinion on it, but I do think that there are ethical and unethical ways that you can support sex workers and consume porn. As someone who is a creator or as someone who is simply a consumer, there are ethical ways to do it. Granted, any company has its downsides, like even OnlyFans has trouble policing and regulating the people who are on their site.

And every company has its downsides. But I would say that the major production porn companies are all predatory and abusive and unethical and prey on vulnerable young women. And even me saying this, I already know that some of the responses back are going to be from women in the industry that say, no, it's not. No, it's not. It's great. It's fantastic. Everyone is so nice. I love this company. I love working with, I love all of this. And to be honest with you, I think that that rhetoric is grooming. I think that if you're going to enter the industry and you're going to be an advocate for it,

it has to come with a caveat. And that caveat needs to be, you shouldn't enter the industry unless you've already kind of been in the industry. It shouldn't be a first option for you. Like that shouldn't be something that you simply go into because you, like think about it more more wait on it more

the age to go into the industry should not be 18. you're putting contracts in front of 18 year old girls that have the words in perpetuity on them do you know how dangerous and predatory that is these are three four five page contracts jesus christ i mean any contract when you're 18 years old although it's like list reading the legal verb it's it's jargon it's literally another language yeah i was thinking about miranda rights we don't really have like miranda right we have our own version of it here but you what do you do you think god save the queen i don't know i've never been arrested i'll let you know but you get read your miranda i watch all of these like a u.s crime interrogation

videos it's like how i fall asleep don't don't worry about it oh wow but i see them let's go back to anxiety yeah i see them being read their miranda rights before they get interrogated and then they get offered a lawyer yeah seems like maybe from what you're saying that's not a bad idea no there was some kind of like implications clearly stated to people that are considering entering the porn industry at a young age and the opportunity to have a lawyer or at least legal representation to impartially explain as a as a third party the potential implications for better or for worse you know i don't think that's ever going to be possible unless the laws change around what around around the the rights

that they have it's just those two words in perpetuity it's in perpetuity what vicious words yeah not not forever not not on in your lifetime not not in our lifetime, in perpetuity of all lifetimes in all existence. Who needs that much control over a young woman's body? They still own the website with your name, with your... Yeah. There's nothing you can do to have that website taken down? I mean, there is, but it's a very expensive lawsuit against a billion dollar corporation. It's a conglomerate. They also own, Bank Bros isn't the only company under that umbrella. It's a very, very wide reach. The peak of your anxiety, 2019 2019 2020. If I was a flower on the wall inside

your, your apartment, wherever you were living back then, what would I have seen? What would I observed? Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth and eat, didn't leave my bed, was crying all the time. Anytime I would open my phone, I felt I felt like I felt like a prisoner in my own body and in the world more so not just in my own body, because I, I didn't, I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop. Honestly, the worst part about it was I knew that if I went on and actually spoke about how much it impacted me, that's what they would want. That's exactly what they would want. They were very annoyed that I started naming them by name. And that's when everything started.

These individuals value their privacy more than anything in the world. And it's because of all of the unethical and immoral things that they've done throughout their careers in this industry. So they all go by aliases too. Being called out by their legal government names was not something they took kindly to and that is why they chose to release the video that the footage was corrupted of 10 years ago that's that was a pornographic video yeah okay so they started releasing more videos because you were speaking out against them and they started doing a variety of other attacks making like mini instagram documentary yeah clips of you which i thought i find i mean you you'd expect like a jealous bitter ex to be doing something like that that's exactly what they are you know not a corporation

that's exactly what they are a jealous bitter ex i look i look at all the decisions i've made in my life and i think about you know being 18 and deciding to do this or that or 25 and doing this and fucking up at that. And you people look back and they say, there's always a silver lining. Is there a silver lining? Yeah. I'm really funny. Trauma makes you funny. Built character. No, of course there's a silver lining lining I'm sitting in front of you today happier than I've ever been I've I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced I'm not the silver lining is fucking happened it's over with it's not over with actually it's following me for the rest of my, but I am no longer in the mental space that I was back then. So it's over with for me. And you get to make your silver lining. Yeah. And that's, that's

what I feel like you've done is you've made a silver lining because there's clearly, you could have gone several ways. Yes, that's true. What are the ways you could have gone? I was acting on instinct. There wasn't a time when I sat down and thought, what do I want with my life? I needed a job. So I acted on instinct. I applied to things that I felt like I could do. I'm good at paperwork. I'm good at, I'm good at just administrative things. I like, I like being left alone. So I didn't want a job where I was working with, like, I was always acting on instinct. There was never really a plan. What felt right? It felt right in the moment to get an office job. It felt right in the moment to leave that one and go to another one. It felt right in

the moment to leave everything and move to Austin. It felt right in the moment in Austin to well, actually, I had a very that was the first time in my life where I started forming a core group of friends and people who are still in my life to this started forming a core group of friends and people who were still in my life to this day um and they were the ones who convinced me not convinced me but kind of encouraged me to go to therapy depression another word different to anxiety in many respects people often characterize it with like thoughts of the past and they think of anxiety as worries of the future um depression is another word that I read a few times throughout your story. Again, is that something that's kind of been with you throughout life or is that,

was that post moving to Miami? It was really that 2019, 2020. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I went on Lexapro. I went, like I, that was when, I mean, maybe I was depressed, but it was never diagnosed. I had two therapy sessions a week and a psychiatrist and I was on Lexapro. I was on propranolol. I was on beta blockers, everything for anxiety, depression, all of that. All of that was in 2019, 2020,

when everything started to kind of get rehashed. And I felt like, I'm very, very grateful to be out of the depths of my depression. But something that does keep me up at night, anxiety-wise, is where things are headed with AI and deep fakes and things like that. Because that feeling of being violated all over again and having no control. It's like trying to run in a dream. As hard as you try, it's impossible. And it's a very daunting feeling.

And you feel claustrophobic and you feel like you're trying to breathe underwater. And all of these really, really awful things that that are out of your control. That's what that's what that feels like. And I try not to think about it for too long. But the AI stuff feels like that in the deep fake stuff. Yeah. OK. It's fucking stuff. Yeah. Okay. That is fucking terrifying.

Yeah. Were people worried about you 2019? Did you have people around you that were worried about you at that point? I did. I did. I'm very grateful. I did. Cause I'm trying to think of this,

this step people take when they go and have therapy or they go to the doctor and say, listen, something's wrong with me. You're at home. This stuff's happening online. This porn company are targeting you. is this what is the what was the catalyst in that moment to make you go do you know i need to go get help oh i was still in therapy yeah and my

therapist said you need a psychiatrist really yeah he said i i'm like you need a psychiatrist i can't prescribe you antidepressants you You need a psychiatrist. Here's some recommendations. Again, so what's life like? I joined a TV show. So things changed for me. You know, people start stopping you in the street and coming up to you in the gym and stuff. And, you know, it comes with the territory of what I did. I was well aware of what I was getting into. Also, I joined the TV show when I was like 28, 29. So you kind of like, you're probably a bit more prepared mentally for things and you understand the world a bit better

and you're not trying to impress people as much as I was when I was younger. But it was still an adjustment to say the least. What was life like for you that post Miami period? You're now moving on with your life. You're trying to, you know, this porn company come for you. What is life like day to day

when you go to the coffee shop? i'm kind of glad you asked that because it's a huge contrast to what it is now even though it's kind of still the same i would get recognized and i would get come up to and i would get asked to like take a photo with someone all the time, but my reaction to it is completely different than it is now. I would want to crawl into a hole and hide away and be ashamed. I was so embarrassed. I felt like a warm feeling in my stomach, like I had just been punched or like I just found out I was being cheated on or something. It's just a very painful, visceral reaction to be recognized and to know what you're being recognized for. And it wasn't until I started to accomplish other things and I started to be proud of things that I've that I've done and things that I've kind of shifted and diverted into in my career. So those first few months to a year in Austin, I felt very, I had a lot of social anxiety and I didn't go out much because I didn't

want to be recognized. I felt like I just didn't want to be recognized. I didn't want to be looked at. I didn't want to be perceived. I didn't, I didn't want to leave my house. None of that. But is that a form of like self-hatred? Cause you're like, no, cause no, because it was more so the people who were coming up to me, college guys, like, like men, you know, it, it, it, it just made me uncomfortable because I knew why they knew me. And it wasn't until I started accomplishing things that I was actually proud of that that changed. I didn't feel that same like gut wrenching, vis and all of these things that I've done, the more comfortable I got with being recognized because inherently people were recognizing me for other things. Women started to recognize me. Everything kind of shifted. The more that I do and continue

to do, the more that changes. like i get come up to more by by women now than by men and i love that what was that path out of the there's a book i from a psychiatrist i have on this podcast called the path out of the jungle for you what was the path through the jungle sorry but what was the path out of the jungle for you that 2019 depression period like how did you for people that might be in that situation right now where they're really struggling what was was it just time was it community support was it the medication how did you get out of that phase everything all of that combined all of that combined truly i don't think i could have done it without shout out to lexa pro without thexapro without my support system without without my job without

people in my job encouraging me to to to pursue what i want to do and and to and to not let fear of of having something taken away from me or or having something You had that fear of having it taken away from you? Yeah, of course. Of course. They're constantly threatening me even using the name Mia Khalifa. They're threatening you using the name Mia Khalifa? They think they have ownership of it. Okay. Which they do not. It's my dog's name. And they tried to convince me not to use Khalifa because they said, no one's going to know how to spell it how to spell it but yeah i i i'm constantly in fear of they're a billion dollar corporation

yes the amount of lawsuits that they field on a daily basis they're being sued right now by um by a company that does mlb trading cards because they're trying to do trading cards of of actresses you're married around that time right 2019 yeah a lot of what i read said that that marriage had fallen apart because the attention you were getting was difficult for your partner i don't know about that he's also famous no no well he's a very popular chef okay um but no that that was more of irreconcilable differences no i'm just kidding um it was it was a lot we we were in therapy for a year an entire year we tried i was we were separated for three months i lived at an airbnb i moved out of the house like we we tried tried it was more so it just very much came

down to, we got married very too early. We got married too soon before we actually knew each other. We got married in the honeymoon phase. And we were just very different. TikTok. You've become a TikTok sensation. I don't like to spend too much time on TikTok because you know, I'll end up not doing anything with my life. I spent too long on there because it's really addictive. But I went through your TikToks. You're a comedian. Oh, my God. It's a trauma. No, but you are. You're incredibly successful on TikTok. I think that TikTok is my favorite app. And I think that I'm very lucky that TikTok is just it's what it's where I spend the most time. I kind of just get it.

I get it. It was very easy for me. I love TikTok, so. Suits your personality. Yeah. You've cultivated a group of people there, a huge group of people, almost like 30 million people or something crazy,

who love that side of Sarah. Yeah, the women on my TikTok are amazing. I'm very, very grateful for the community of women that I found on there. Second ago, you said about 10 years time, plans for 10 years time. You said now you have an answer. What is the answer? The answer is two car garage. Decent backyard. two car garage, decent backyard, three very successful, still operating companies that I'm

very heavily involved in still. I don't plan on retiring anytime soon. And hopefully a kid on the way. In order to have a kid. Now there's a couple of routes to having a kid that's not true in order to have a kid you can adopt one you can steal one or you can have your own um that all you know all of these paths i mean i'm sure there might be a fourth path that i'm not yeah i wouldn't mind stealing a four-year-old someone who's already like into cartoons and stuff so maybe that's the route i go by i go for are you are you in a relationship now no you know you're single yes how are you finding that i talk a lot about my guests about relationships and how dating in the modern world is really really tough it is tough it sucks

especially for a certain generation i think got caught between like the digital world and like the analog world yeah do you find it tough obviously people know who you are you're you're famous you're super famous you've got like 60 million followers plus um do you find it tough obviously people know who you are you're you're famous you're super famous you've got like 60 million followers plus um do you find it tough to date very very but i'm also not trying i've been a serial monogamist for a while i got out of a long term long-ish term relationship a few months ago um but yeah it's difficult it's difficult but i also haven't tried but i'm i i don't i don't know what i'm expecting i haven't gone into the dating world in maybe six years i've been in long-term relationships what do you what would make a great partner for sarah what would they have to have what would be the jigsaw shape emotional intelligence and a good

relationship with their therapist and with therapy in general um someone who's constantly working on themselves and is self-aware and understands the ebbs and flows of life and emotions and how it's not always going to be even keel how it'll oscillate, but oscillate doesn't necessarily mean go from good to toxic. It means go from good to needing a little more support than you normally have. Men are not necessarily the best at emotional intelligence. I'm not ruling out women. Yeah, good, good. And business.

Three businesses. The business, the jewelry brand. Can you tell me all about your jewelry brand and um the inspiration for that and your vision for that um i'm really really excited to launch it it's called shaitan it's the inspiration is every woman who i've ever admired every arab girl who chooses yellow gold over white gold, every just women in general, huge inspiration behind it.

It's body jewelry for the most part, but it's also lifestyle. It will launch imminently. And yeah. Why did you choose jewelry? Because I love it. It will launch imminently. And yeah. Why did you choose jewelry? Because I love it. I was custom making the things that I wanted that I couldn't find easily. Hand lariats and foot lariats and belly chains and bra chains and all of this stuff was extremely hard to find.

So I was custom making it and paying a lot for it so very excited to put out something that is extremely delicate and precious and beautiful but also affordable you know when you think about like the ingredient ingredients list of your own happiness right now in your life what is on that list of ingredients what are the like factors that need to be present for you to feel like stable and um full i would say 70 alone time interesting 20 time surrounded by people who energize and recharge me. And 10% just 10% fuck it. 10% just if something feels right, do it follow your instinct. But like, I'm kind of scared of my instinct a little too sometimes, even though yeah, 10% just listen to your your gut and going back to the start of the conversation this is because you feel closest to knowing who who you are yeah yeah the most

secure in the decisions i make on a daily basis and who are you i'm sarah i'm Sarah fucking Joe. And who's Sarah Joe? Sarah is unapologetic and not fearless, pretty fearful, but I think that's a good thing. Cautious. Cautious and secure. Okay, so unapologetic. And then the second one was not fearless, pretty fearful. Yeah, but in a good way cautious cautious cautious okay the unapologetic part i get that i sense that from you where did that come from rihanna rihanna no really that came from oh absolutely yeah yeah she has a whole album called Unapologetic. And that is what I base my personality off of. Why?

What do you mean why? Why did you choose to make so many different albums Rihanna's made? Oh, that's the one that just exudes. That's the one that kind of that was her. That was her shift. Also, that was her moment of now I know who I am and I'm unapologetic about it. It might not be the bubblegum pop girl you thought I was or wanted me to be. This is who I am. And this is the person who's not going anywhere. Is that a stark contrast from the Sarah I would have met had I met you at like 18? Like I want to, if I'd like put that 18 year old Sarah there and I had them both side by side I'm guessing Sarah 18 wouldn't be unapologetic no what can you describe how her her vibe would

have been sat here today shriveled insecure quiet probably or too loud just because insecurity screams not not someone well actually no that is someone who i would want to be around because i i feel empathy for her and i forgive her and the journey to unapologetic was from what i've garnered so far based on the evidence you got from going out and doing things and proving shit to yourself yeah that's so important i was going to say this at the start of the conversation this idea of confidence people don't know how you said it like how the fuck do you get confidence like where does it come from? How do I buy one? But from your own experiences, it's the evidence you gain from doing shit that changes your beliefs.

Exactly. It's all evidence. Yeah. You have evidence for like low confidence is negative evidence. Yeah. And the confidence you've built over the last couple of years is from doing really cool shit. Yeah,

exactly. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest okay and they leave it written in this diary oh aristotle said give me the child at seven and i'll show you the man or one is it true that the first seven years of your life make you who you are? I think they have a huge impact. Just psychology speaking, psychologically. I think those are very formative years.

Yeah. Seven years old, you could have whispered some words into Sarah's ear. What would those words have been? You're amazing. You're enough. You're perfect. Thank you so much, ma'am. Thank you, Sarah. Yeah, that's okay. Learning about your story and really like the reaction to the mistakes you made when you were younger is incredibly inspiring for me because we all make, we all make decisions, especially in our younger years that, you know,

through naivety or other or coercion or whatever might be we're not necessarily you know we wouldn't make those decisions again and the way you've responded to that and built the life that you're building now off the back of that and the audience you've built around tiktok and social media um around your personality and your humor is incredibly hope inspiring it gives me a lot of hope that regardless of, you know, the, the, the steps I make in my life, there will be, there's a way through, there's a way through the jungle. And that's what your story represents to me. It's an incredibly inspiring one. And you're, yeah, you're an inspiration for that very reason.

Thank you. I appreciate that.