The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Moment 150: The REAL (& Usually Unseen) Reason You’re Struggling With Love & Relationships!: Logan Ury

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

In this moment, relationship expert and behavioural scientist, Logan Ury discusses what she thinks is the most important part out of all of relationship science: attachment styles. Logan says these styles help you to understand yourself, your previous dating patterns, and who you are attracted to. Our attachment style also explains we are triggered to push people away, as our brains create negative thoughts and look for flaws in a person as an unconscious way of protecting us from getting hurt. However, Logan says that it is possible for 25% of us to change our attachment style. She says this can be done in 2 parts: firstly by understanding your style of attachment, and secondly, by understanding your unconscious triggers you can override them in order to get out of your own way in finding love. Listen to the full episode here Apple - https://g2ul0.app.link/sXZ3OZpToHb Spotify - https://g2ul0.app.link/nAu4hnmToHb Watch the Episodes On Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Logan: https://www.loganury.com https://www.instagram.com/loganury/?hl=en

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio.

And thirdly to Amazon Music who, when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. For anyone listening who's feeling really stuck, going deep on attachment theory is one of the number one things that you can do to really understand yourself, understand your past patterns, understand who you've been attracted to and why it isn't working. And so there's a lot of great relationship science out there, but this might be the number one thing that I want

people to take away. Let me describe what happens when you're avoiding attachment. So first, there's a trigger. So the trigger might be that you go out with somebody on Saturday night, you have a great night, they sleep over and Sunday morning you wake up and you're just ready to do your thing, but they're still there. So you feel triggered by the fact

that they're still at your house. Then you do something called deactivating strategies. So these are thoughts or feelings that push them away. So it might be like, oh my God, it's 10 o'clock and she hasn't brushed her teeth yet. When is she going to leave? Oh, you know, is she going to be here forever? And then you start thinking about flaws in that person. Well, this is wrong with her or that is wrong with her. And there's all these things that are subtly pushing her away from you. And then you do a protest behavior, which is sort of snapping or just saying something like,

okay, I called your Uber. And I feel like many of us have had that situation where you think things are going well with somebody. And then all of a sudden they're like, the Uber's here. And you're like, oh, so you're kicking me out. And it's so interesting because it's like the other person has no idea what's going on for you. They feel like you just had a great date and they're like, great, let's go out to the diner for breakfast. And instead that person is like, I will never have my life back. You are taking over my world.

You're really blushing. And so what an avoidant attached person can do, let me give a few tips for them. So one of them is being really clear about what you want. And so it's absolutely fine if you want the person to leave, but saying something like, hey, I had such a great date with you. I have a big week of work ahead of me. And so I want to get started, but I will call you again soon. And so just asking for what you need. Another thing is overriding the flaws that are become so obvious to you. So there's a really interesting thing called the negativity bias. And even though we're living in

this age of chat GPT and all of modern technology, our brains are running on ancient software. And so our brains have the negativity bias, which is that we're much more likely to ruminate on what's wrong with someone. The reason for this is that if you had five ex-girlfriends and one of them wanted to kill you, it was really important to know which one that was. And so your brain would remember that. And so to overcome the negativity bias, to overcome this feeling

where avoidant attached people focus on flaws, you actually can work on focusing on the positives. So even just saying to yourself five things that you like about somebody. So you could think in your head, last night was so fun. She looks so cute wearing my t-shirt. I'm really excited to hear her talk more about her work, whatever that is. And so actively overriding this feeling of pushing people away, because that's one of the really hard parts about being avoidant is that you feel like those criticisms that you have in your head are so valid. Well, I need to pay attention to this. But what you don't understand is that that's actually a subconscious way for you to not get

close to someone. And so I'm coaching someone right now where she told me, oh, I went on a date with a guy. Everything was great, but he wore a white t-shirt under his shirt, which reminded me of my uncle. So I can't be with him. And I was like, do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? Obviously that's not a reason to not be with someone. That's an excuse for you to not get close to someone. And as we talked about it more, it became obvious that she's really afraid of being hurt. She's been abandoned by many people.

She was in a bad marriage. And for her, if I don't get close to you, then you can't hurt me. And that's part of the avoidant attachment. If I never rely on you, then you can never let me down. And so part of it is actually getting more comfortable relying on somebody else. And you kind of alluded to it there, but the obvious question here is, where does it come from? You know, I think from your answer with your client with the white t-shirt, I think it's quite clear. But in my case, I think I know where it comes from.

But generally, where does this avoidant attachment style come from? Yeah. So if you think about the history of attachment theory and the fact that it started doing research with children and their primary caregiver, there is this idea that it goes back to your childhood. But I feel like it's unfair to really say all of us have these attachment styles because of our parents or specifically because of our mothers. And hey, mom, if I'm single, it's your fault. That's actually not true. I think that's part of it, but there's other societal things that can lead to it. And there's some evidence of different biological reasons why each of us would do this. So the main message that I want to give away is do not blame everything on your mother. I think attachment styles is a really

good framework, but it's not just an excuse to say, oh, well, my parents are the reason why I can't find love. And can you change it? The research shows that when people work on it, about 25% of people are able to change their attachment style. And so what that might look like is somebody understanding this is my trigger. And when a trigger happens, I'm going to do something else. And so we talked about for the avoidant person, asking for what you need, being really clear and not assuming that somebody is going to read your mind and looking for the positives. And you can work on self-regulation. So for example, when an avoidant or anxious person is triggered, they go into this thing called the danger zone, which is basically like, I need to get away from you as soon as possible

or I need to reconnect with you as soon as possible. And if you don't wanna get into the danger zone and you wanna stay in the comfort zone, then you can learn how to self-regulate. So that's one thing. The other thing, which I personally feel like is easier and was my strategy, is finding a secure partner. And so that's a great way to get

out of the anxious avoidant loop. So with me, right, I was this anxiously attached dater, chasing after this Burning Man guy, had all these bad habits. And then when I started dating my husband, I distinctly remember this moment where I was walking down the street of San Francisco and I was flooded.

I was so angry. I would just get so upset. And I was typing away at my phone. I couldn't see anything else. I truly was in this flooded cortisol rush moment. And I was telling him all the things he had done wrong. And I knew the pattern, which was then he would fight with me. We'd get into this fight. It would blow up. And then eventually we'd make up. But he didn't do that pattern. He wrote back and said, it sounds like you're upset. We should talk about this in person. And it was this crazy moment where I was like, wait, we're not going to do the thing that I always do with everyone. We're going to do this different thing. And it just dissipated

all of the anger because he was acknowledging that I was upset, but he was suggesting a healthier plan. And I don't think that it's unrelated to the fact that his mom is a therapist. So dating the secure person made me so much more secure where I broke out of the anxious avoidant loop. I got over the silly Burning Man guy and I understood what a secure relationship was like. And I feel so lucky to be in this secure marriage. And sometimes when I think about my career success,

I'm like, I couldn't have done it without my husband, not because he's involved with my career, but I really feel like 25 to 50% of my brain was in these spirals, worrying about people, being anxiously attached, ruminating on them. And just being in a secure relationship actually gives you a lot of peace and you can use that brain power for something else. But only 50% of people you said are the secure ones that everybody wants. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's a combination of you can become more secure yourself or you can find a secure partner. What's hard is that we often confuse secure people for boring. That's what I was going to say.

I wasn't sure whether to say it, but secure sounds a bit, you know, wallpaper. Yes. And that's what people don't understand. So people think, oh, like I had a client who said to me, I went on a date with this guy. We went out a few times. I told him I was going to Seattle. And then he sent me all these recommendations for Seattle. So I'm never going to see him again.

I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, that's so desperate. I was like, this is just a nice guy who's trying to tell you about a cool bookstore in Seattle. Like, why can't you see that as somebody that's interested in you and putting in effort? But to her in the anxious avoidant loop, what she wanted was someone who was unavailable. And that's what's so hard. I feel like there's all these lovely,

securely attached people out there that are probably like, oh, I'm a dud. Nobody wants me. It's like, baby, somebody wants you. They just haven't figured it out yet. And so some of the work that I do is train people to look for secure partners. And so things like, are they consistent?

Do they not play games? Are they clear about their interest in you? And so we actually have to understand that securely attached partners are the heroes of the relationship world. And they're great to be in relationships with. They have healthier relationships. And you have to train yourself to go for that

and to break out of this anxious avoidant loop. There will be a bunch of people out there who class themselves as the first attachment style, anxiously attached, that needs some help and advice. So my girlfriend, I think she's a little bit anxious attached. What do anxious attached people need to know to increase their probability of finding love? So you illustrated this really well in your story. So you talked about how your girlfriend will want attention from you. You don't give it to her.

She tries and then she shuts down. So that's exactly what we see with anxious attached people. So let me give you the equivalent of what I gave you for the avoidant attached. So an anxious attached person will have a trigger. So for example, the trigger would be, I asked somebody if we're hanging out tomorrow and they didn't get back to me. So after the trigger happens,

they go into activating strategy. So those are thoughts or feelings where you start spiraling and you're thinking, they're not interested in me. They met somebody else. There's something else going on. They don't like me anymore. And you really are getting into that danger zone

of coming up with all these reasons why that person is going to abandon you, which is your biggest fear. So then you do protest behavior. So the protest behavior, and trust me, I've been there, is sending 10 texts in a row. Maybe it's sending 20 texts in a row, leaving an angry voicemail. So really acting out. And then afterwards, you decide to punish the person and you shut down. So you send all those texts, you send threats, and then you turn off your phone. And so you're really in this tough place where you've tried to reconnect with somebody and then you've gotten so upset that they're abandoning you that you actually pull back. And so that sort of describes what might be happening with your girlfriend sometimes where she doesn't get what she wants. It's very

frustrating for her and then she shuts down. So the strategies for the anxious attached, I talked about them before, but I'll say them again. So some of those strategies for anxious attached are distracting yourself. So going for a walk, doing something else where you're not on your phone, where you're basically not in a mode where you're waiting for somebody to text back.

I feel like those are the longest minutes of my life are waiting for that text back from that person. The second thing is to text somebody else, you know, I wish I could say this to him. And the third thing is this disconfirming evidence. It's almost like inside your head is a judge and a jury and you're presenting to the judge, here's all the reasons why it could not be true. So then you're presenting to the judge and the jury, here's all the reasons why that person might be true. So then you're presenting to the judge and the jury, here's all the reasons why that person might not be texting me back. And so you're really doing everything that you can

to not get into that protest behavior moment. Because once you're flooded, once you're in that protest behavior moment, it's really hard to recover. And so it's both people are working on having different reactions to triggers. And honestly, if you look at all of the mindfulness stuff, if you look at the work of Viktor Frankl

and Man's Search for Meaning, so much of it is this idea of creating more space between an action and a reaction. And if you can extend that space and choose a different reaction, that's where the growth comes from. And that's how we can overcome these negative behavioral trends.

Something you said that made me think about advice i once gave to a friend that i'm not sure is good or bad advice she was being ghosted and she came to me telling me she'd been ghosted and she showed me her phone and was like look and i looked at her phone conversation with this person and she was basically peppering him she was dragging the conversation you know what I mean where she's like asking the questions and he's giving um closed responses then she's asking another question then he's giving a closed response it was that cycle over and over again then the next day she'd text him and he didn't reply and I said to her she's a good friend of mine she works in one of my companies I said I think it's important to realize that people do what they want to do and the reason I said that to her is because she had

started justifying I think in her own mind what I saw as a clear rejection as something else I said I think it's important to let you know that just remember people do what they want to do he would have woke up this morning I'm sure he brushed his teeth because he wanted to do that. He then would have eaten breakfast because I'm sure he wanted to do that. So if he's not texting you back over and over again, and you feel like you're constantly dragging the conversation, I think it's important to know that he's doing what he wants to do. And it's maybe a bit of harsh advice, but I don't know.

I think that's great advice. And I'm smiling and I have sympathy for your friend because I feel like I've really been there. Obviously, I don't know anything about her, but let's say she's wired like me. It's like, well, when I want something, I go after it. And it works in every other area of my life. I set goals. I go after them. I achieve them. And people respect the hustle. It doesn't work in dating. You can't hustle your way into a relationship. And I think that's why so many of the women I work with are really smart and ambitious. And they're like, I've run a marathon. I have amazing personal finances. I've achieved all these goals. Why isn't dating working out

for me? And it does feel like this one aspect of your life where you can't muscle your way through it. You actually have to learn this pretty nuanced stance. And so for her, she wasn't getting the cues and she wasn't getting the clues. And so I just finished a bunch of research at Hinge on this idea that we're calling DBL, digital body language. And so we talk about body language in normal conversation, which is what are the nonverbal things that you're communicating? Are you crossing your arms? You're not interested in me. Are you opening up? Are you interested in having this conversation, even the way we stand? Well, most of early dating is now happening over text. What is your digital body language saying? And so through this research, I have this whole list of good DBL and bad DBL or signs that somebody is interested in you and signs that they're not. And this guy is doing all of the signs that you're not. He's answering the questions with one word answers. He's not asking a follow-up question. He's not matching her style.

And so for her, I think it should be a sign that he's not interested. But she wants him to be interested. So she's going to keep trying. And in her head, which I have been there, it's like, oh, I just haven't found the perfect question yet for him to open up to. It's like, no, he's not interested in you. And I can hear my college roommate saying to me, Logan, don't make somebody a priority

when they're making you an option. And that's what's happening with her. She's prioritizing him, but he's not prioritizing her. I think your advice is exactly right. People do what they wanna do and he's choosing not to invest in that relationship. But at the end of the day, that was not your guy. He had already indicated in multiple ways

that he wasn't interested. You were still grasping onto the crumbs, but you don't want the crumbs. You deserve the whole cookie. It's not like you ruin things with your person. He wasn't your person. Vulnerability is the bridge. I guess you could say vulnerability

creates a bridge to connection. With that in mind, is it conceivable then that people that have the lowest self-esteem feel the need to create the perception of perfection the most and therefore struggle because thinking about one of my friends that has low self-esteem ahead of a date this person well it has like a three-day routine where they go and get the hair, then everything done, fake tan, bloody probably get their toenails done, wax this, wax my butt, whatever. And it's this huge thing. They have a really low self-esteem. They go on the date. And I can only just imagine as you were speaking that they go on the date and try and like hit this person with perfection. Like everything about me is perfect. I know

underneath that they're struggling with their self-esteem and their self-image. But it made me think that there might be correlation between low self-esteem and our willingness to be vulnerable, which will also mean our ability to form connection. I think it's an interesting theory. I haven't studied it. I bet it happens both ways.

So I think somebody with low self-esteem could feel like I'm going to be rejected anyway, so I'm not even going to date. So those might be the hesitators that I talked about. They also might be the people that you talked about where they're like, I have so many flaws. I can't let you in because if you know the real me, you'll reject me.

So I have to keep you at arm's length. However, I also think there's this other person who actually has pretty high self-confidence, but they go through the world bragging or they say the way that I got investors in my company is by showing what a big man on campus I am and how I'm going to scale my company and that what society has prized in them is how together they are. situation before where their vulnerability has been appreciated. So it's actually pretty hard for that person. And I think that just to generalize it, this happens with a lot of men where society wants people to be strong and wants people to feel like they have all their shit together. And so then to suddenly say, hey, be vulnerable on the date, that doesn't feel safe to them. They don't have that. And so I don't think it's necessarily just low self-esteem.

I also think it's, they feel like it's really risky to show that they're not perfect. That's the journey I've been on is when I was younger and most insecure, I was never vulnerable. That felt like a huge risk that I was not willing to take. And as I got more secure with myself, I've been able to be much more vulnerable.

And that means like having conversations where I admit my bullshit. And that's also why I think this podcast has worked for me because I say on stage a lot, I ran the experiment of being honest. I think being vulnerable about my shit, about my imperfection, about my doubt, about my mental health, all of these things. And that experiment resulted in connection that I was not expecting. I thought vulnerability was a repellent. Turns out it's a magnet. And that was like a revelation in my life. So I've doubled down on that, that concept of just like share it.

And instead of repelling people, it actually ends up drawing them closer, which I think is great. I absolutely love what you said. And I hope people rewind and listen to that part again, because that's honestly a lot of what I'm trying to get across. So a few months ago, I sent out this email to my newsletter and I said, do you worry you're undateable? Is there something about you where you feel like people will reject you because of that? What is that? And hundreds of people wrote in and they said, I'm undateable because I have a chronic illness that makes me have chronic fatigue. I'm undateable because I don't have a close relationship with my parents. I'm undateable because I've slept with too many people. I'm undateable because I haven't slept with enough people. Every side of every coin, people felt

like they were undateable. And then I turned that around. And the next email I sent out, I shared all these things. And I said, this is what you're all feeling. You all feel like you're undateable because of these things. None of these things make you undateable. They actually are your vulnerability that if you share, somebody will feel connected to you But you're not putting it out there and you're not sharing and you're not connecting And I think people who have been on the journey you're on have proven that when you are vulnerable People feel connected to you because they say steven's struggling with something that i'm struggling with I want to be a part of what he's doing because I can learn from him. When you come across as perfect, people don't feel connected to you because they can't relate.

My friends that don't share their vulnerabilities, I feel less close to them because I'm like, well, you must have it all figured out and you must think I'm a mess. But when they text me what they're struggling with and I text them with what I'm struggling with, that's the depth of our friendship. And I can judge my friendships based on how real we are with each other. And so I think that younger people, but really a lot of people have this idea that if you really knew me, you would reject me. And the truth is, if you really knew me, you would feel closer to me and we would have a deeper connection.